Iran and the “dirty bomb”
Commenter “Keith” wrote:
… [T]he mullahs have had the ability for some time to put a dirty bomb on the Temple Mount or Tel Aviv . Dirty bomb would actually be more worser than a true nuclear device because of the isotopes involved . 1000 years without the wailing wall.
They have not done so. Maybe we should have just left the crazies alone. We could always kill them later.
I think that sounds like a topic worth tackling.
First, on the dirty bomb question:
While it remains doubtful that Iran has developed a nuclear weapons capability, it is widely believed to have access to sufficient radioactive material for use in dirty bombs, particularly from civilian nuclear and industrial sources.
Unlike nuclear weapons that require fissile materials such as uranium or plutonium, dirty bombs can be assembled using radioactive isotopes from civilian sources such as cesium?137, cobalt?60, or americium?241, paired with conventional explosives. Though not designed for mass lethality, a well-placed dirty bomb can cause localized surface contamination, psychological trauma, and economic disruption, as well as significant cleanup costs …
Depending on their size, most dirty bombs and similar devices can only impact an area the size of 1-2 city blocks, but winds can disperse the radioactive particles over a few square miles …
This potential form of asymmetric escalation fits within Iran’s doctrine of warfare and long-standing reliance on proxy actors, offering a plausible but risky retaliatory tool, should Tehran perceive that it faces an existential threat …
The article mentions that Iran could use Hezbollah or the Houthis as the conduit. It also states what is rather obvious, which is that fear of massive retaliation – perhaps nuclear retaliation – could also discourage a dirty bomb’s use. In my opinion, that’s one reason why Iran has been so eager to pursue its own conventional nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles – to finesse such retaliation.
In addition, the article points out that a dirty bomb could end up hurting Israel’s Muslim neighbors, because the radiation is difficult to control and unpredictable.
Therefore, I don’t think it’s at all surprising that Iran has never used a dirty bomb. I also think – as I’ve written before – that Iran’s leaders are somewhat unpredictable because they display a mix of pragmatism and of extreme apocalyptic fanaticism. Which tendency will win out, and when? We can’t afford to risk finding out if it’s the apocalyptic fanaticism, but does the current war increase or decrease that danger? Iran is also not just a self-contained tyranny only affecting the Iranian people, but has ambitions (some of which have already been carried out) of takeover of other countries and the spread of worldwide Islamic terrorist jihadism against other Muslim counties and the West.
Here’s another relevant article:
[Trump’s] methods [of deal-making] have produced impressive results in all sorts of unexpected areas, but for them to work, his counterparts need to be rational actors capable of understanding and acting in their own self interest.
The Islamic Republic of Iran is not a rational actor.
From its very earliest inception, the Islamic Republic of Iran has mirrored founder Ayatollah Khomeini’s belief that the United States (“the Great Satan”) and Israel (“the Little Satan”) are affronts to Islam that must be fought and destroyed. Catspaws Hezbollah and Hamas believe that the founding of Israel (“the Zionist entity”) was a literal affront to God that must be expunged through violent jihad. …
And don’t forget that Iran’s fundamentalist Twelver Shiia regime has devout apocalyptic eschatological beliefs about the return of the occulted Mahdi, one in which the Islamic Republic will create the conditions to hasten his return and reign before the Day of Judgment. Asking them to stop supporting terrorism in the wake of bombing and hyperinflation is like asking an Evangelical to give up their belief in the Rapture and the Second Coming in order to lower their gasoline bill. By the standards of economics, traditional geopolitics and game theory, they cannot be considered “rational actors.”
Some observers have argued that the U.S. has already “won” the war against Iran by shattering its nuclear program, decapitating its leadership and destroying numerous military assets while taking extremely few casualties. But the United States won just about every battle it fought in Afghanistan and Vietnam, but still lost those wars by letting its adversaries survive.
We’re not going to be putting boots on the ground in Iran. It’s a big country with a deeply entrenched (and somewhat decentralized) military, and ruthlessly devoted to putting down dissent in a violent manner. Regine change is probably necessary for victory, but at this point I don’t see how it can be achieved, or how regime change for the better could be guaranteed. But leaving the regime in place just kicks the can down the road.
Without such change, this sort of thing is inevitable:
Alarming new satellite images show signs that the Iranian regime appears to be rebuilding its suspected nuclear facilities at Pickaxe Mountain and Parchin.
Footage of both areas – which sustained extensive damage during US and Israeli-led bombing campaigns that began in late February – reveal “major signs” of activity …
The regime puts these efforts very high on its “must do” list.
Cross posting this response here. Suffice it to say my response is simpler and far less sourcing and far more profane but I think it touches on a bunch of important points.
@Keith
Bullshit. You have never been anywhere near those places or seen their security. They have definitely not had the ability to do so with a dirty bomb of the magnitude that would make it worth the effort. Especially given how muh international community seems to be leaning in the direction of treating radiation itself and even byproducts like DU as attacks that might warrant escalation. Israeli intelligence can and has dropped the ball in spectacular fashion but their radiation screening capacity is superb.
Firstly: that’s “would actually be much worse”, you illiterate savage. “Worser” is not a word.
Secondly: depends on the nature of the explosion. I suggest you actually study what nuclear missiles the Mullahs have been considering making. That would be far worse than a suitcase nuke. Especially if you want lingering contamination.
Thirdly: Do you know what the absolute fuck an isotope even is? I am guessing not. The main tradeoff on proper nukes are how much radioactive material is used up in the explosion versus how much is left over to contaminate. But in this case even with 0 radioactive contamination (which is basically not going to happen) a Little Boy style bomb – let alone the nuclear missiles the Iranians actually have serious plans – would be more devastating due to the human loss and destruction, with contamination being a side effect
Remember you illiterate Jew hater: these people have an intelligence branch called the Al-Quds Force. Aka Jerusalem Force. They want to be able to reconquer Jerusalem and Tel Aviv and the rest and reintegrate it into the Caliphate. They would prefer to do so intact with minimal radioactive fallout but they will gladly salt the earth if they need to.
Because they lack the capacity to do so, you illiterate Jew hating fuckhead. And that they lack the capacity to do so becomes abundantly clear if you study Israeli radioactive detection.
And also history. The Iranian regime has a very very poor track record of restraint. They wanted to overthrow Saddam and set up a Shiite theocratic crescent after repulsing Saddam’s initial invasion and it took most of the war fighting around Basra to force them back.
It’s amusing you also seem to have no coherent idea. You are stupid enough to believe the Mullahs could plant a dirty bomb at the Temple Mount at any time and Israel could not stop it, but simultaneously that Israel is powerful and clever enough to dictate terms to the US and dominate its politics.
This is obviously retarded and stupid. The only question is if it is also consciously dishonest. Given your track record I choose to think it is.
Pakistan on Line One.
Also it is bold to talk about “left the crazies alone” when they have killed thousands of us over the course of years. But at least they hate Jews, right Keith?
Regarding dirty bombs the stupid (not neo or Turtler) is so thick it hurts.
It ain’t rocket surgery, look up half lives of Cs-137 (30 yrs), Co-60 (5 yrs), Am-242 (430 yrs).
Look at YouTube sites about ignorant victims who f’ed around with Cs-137 or Co-60 discarded sources.
Cs-137 and Co-60 are relatively easy to detect, decontamination process not that difficult. Protection? Start with a APR respirator, wash down the streets sidewalks, etc, monitor with basic radiation detection instrumentation.
The dirty bomb scernarious are not Chernobyl or Fukushima events. Or a Hiroshima/Nagasaki.
At least NYC is now safe from a “dirty bomb” or any kind of Muslem terrorist attack
Remember: If it can be abused it WILL BE
abused.
Turtlerr your a piece of work man , not as smart as you think you are. You do know ,,maybe you don’t, but Iran sent go fast flyers to Diego Garcia. Om seems not to understand reactor leftovers will poison the earth for a thousand years . You two are more worser than most. This is me avoiding gratuitous ad hominem per request.
Kieth once again displays
because Kieth cannot comprehend basic facts of radioactive decay:
The half life of isotopes.
You can’t fix stupid.
Unlike Kieth, I’ve been working in the field of environmental cleanup of radioactive and hazardous waste for more than 40 years. By the way Kieth, that cleanup uses models that estimate risk to future people for thousands of years.
You Kieth are ignorant.
@Keith
So you finally deign to “respond” – and I use the term far more generously than I should – after weeks of me trying to engage you more constructively and politely. Well, unfortunately for you I am out of patience for dishonesty, stupidity, Jew hatred, and apologia for murderous, apocalyptic enemies even you now admit are “crazies.”
Firstly: That’s “Turtler” and “you’re a piece of work” or “you are a piece of work”. Get it correct, Jew Hating Fuckhead.
ESPECIALLY if you mean to lecture me about how I am not nearly as smart as I think I am but you, the absolute fuckhead who obviously has never gotten within a stone’s throw of the Temple Mount and who has not the slightest clue about Israeli security (much like your idol Tucker Carlson, hence him getting caught on footage showing distinctly different from what he claimed) or what it would take to get a dirty bomb anywhere near either spot, are to be taken seriously and are so so smurt.
Secondly: Coming from you, that’s a compliment. I do not peddle irrational, unsourced (oh, excuse me, “Anonymously Sourced”) horsecrap from the MSM just because it fits my hatred of Israel.
I do not shill for Ward Boston the racist, unhinged lunatic who spread blood libel about the USS Liberty and systematically demonized and sought to cast out other Liberty survivors who did not hew to his flavor of horseshit, only to undo basically all the work he did to those of us who observed by being dumb enough to post the raw Hebrew language audio intercepts of the IDF pilots that attacked the Liberty, thus showing they had no clue it was American, did not see the flag (aka like Boston claimed was impossible), and thought it was Egyptian until well after it was too late. Only for him to then compound the folly by removing the audio, thus showing he was not merely a broken, deluded, old traumatized fool but a malicious, vile poison peddler.
I also know what an “isotope” means and know something of what would go into Iranian regime thoughts on how to attack Israel with nuclear weapons, be it a dirty bomb or not.
Perhaps the world today requires defending by a certain piece of work. Perhaps not and it just benefits from some. In any case I accept the label gladly, and can be glad that I do not succumb to you.
Then I’m sure you can prove it. Right fucking now.
Go on, I’ll wait.
Waiiiting.
Care to list the “isotopes” you said would be a problem with a dirty bomb but not a strategic missile>
And none of them fucking hit, Keith.
You seem to be ignoring that. Or hoping we don’t.
They only got as far as Diego Garcia due to the sheer element of surprise, both due to habitual Iranian dishonesty and deceit claiming they had no such missiles of such capacity and even those that expected otherwise not thinking they’d be committed, and due to relative scarcity of experience and weapons on station and ready to stop them.
And again, this completely failed to impact on Diego Garcia.
In contrast, Israel has been under heavy rocket and missile attack for decades and probably has the best arsenal and expertise for countering that in the world. An attempted nuclear strike by missile gets shot down long before it gets anywhere close and probably triggers diplomatic fallout (Hurr) from whatever country gets hit by the pieces, and possibly triggers outright coalition war against Iran on a much larger scale.
The “Dirty Bomb” scenario you mention gets intercepted by Israeli domestic security, who while capable of dropping the ball on many things are SUPERB at sniffing out radiological threats.
You very obviously have not considered any of this, and probably have no fucking clue what half of what i wrote even means, in much the same way you have no reason I mentioned Pakistan as a counterargument against the “just kill the crazies later” theory and how it led to the deaths of untold thousands of Americans and many more. Which would be slightly above par for you.
No, Om understands far more than you. Which is why he began slapping you around with the proper terminology. You seem to be suffering from the kind of brain rot coming from the likes of The China Syndrome.
Much like you suffer from Jew Hate Brain Rot and an irrational tendency to give undue leeway to basically every regime on Earth except Israel.
Coming from a Jew hating, Jihadi shilling illiterate, I consider that a badge of honor.
And again, “are worse”, not “are more worser”, illiterate fuckhead.
Great. Another thing you cannot fucking understand: the meaning of Ad Hominem.
Let’s attend remedial Logic. God knows that’s the highest level we can reasonably expect you to understand.
https://www.txst.edu/philosophy/student-resources/informal-fallacies/ad-hominem.html
<blockquote: This fallacy (the Ad Hominem Fallacy) occurs when, instead of addressing someone’s argument or position, one irrelevantly attacks the person or some aspect of the person who is making the argument. The fallacious attack can also be direct to membership in a group or institution.
Pay attention you illogical, illiterate shithead, because this is why I am not doing gratuitous ad hominem fallacies. I am not responding to your “arguments” by ignoring them or misstating them and then calling you a host of names. I am addressing your “arguments” and “evidence” as well as your proven poor track record, I am disposing of those things in turn, and I am then drawing CONCLUSIONS for both the evidence and arguments on one hand and on yourself and your character on the other, and stating those conclusions.
Repeatedly, vocally, a few shades more profane laced than ideal, and sharply as it may be, that is what i am doing.
I am doing what logic and argument is meant to do. Honest analysis of evidence, sources, and arguments, and the competent drawing of conclusions from them.
You on the other hand?
This post from you is vastly closer to an ad hominem argument than I. All you can do is assert about the Iranian FAILED attempt to strike Diego Garcia – without any follow throw or explanation on how this has anything to do with what else you stated – before namecalling.
The act of an incompetent, illiterate, dishonest, illogical fuckhead.
You also have done absolutely nothing to address what Neo wrote either, let alone Om. Namecalling is essentially all you have beyond throwing random claims or sourcing together without a scintilla of analysis. And I am tired of treating you like this is all some understandable mistake.
The term “half life” can be deceiving, if used to do so. What it means is that, in a given period, half te atoms in question will have degraded, presumably to a stable state and thus no longer be “radioactive”, although, depending on conventional chemistry, they may still be poisonous. Or not. Which means it’s only half as bad as when it was started. Is “half” some kind of benign state where we can all picnic or something/ If it’s really, really bad to start with, after the half life, it’s only really bad. And then somewhat bad.
Hell, you can deploy the stuff from an old pick up truck. Just pitch a couple of sand bags off the back and run over them. That’s a kind of suicide bomb, but not beyond the kind of volunteers they can get. And a good deal of the problem of a suicide bomb is the public’s view of the place. It will not be informed by know-it-alls on web sites on another continent.
I suspect the reluctance to use a dirty bomb is that the victim will consider it the same as the noisy atomic blast, in terms of considering responses. As in Fenandez’ conjectures, they may not know where, exactly, to shoot, so they’ll nuke a lot of places.
Use of cut-outs may not avail the instigators of the dirty bomb.
Since the Temple Mount is considered holy ground by the Muslims – I doubt they would even try to use a dirty bomb there.
The stupid continues.
The nonrafioactine isotope of lead, Pb-210 is toxic, forever. Who is being msleading Richard? Cobalt-60 decays to a stable isotope of Nickel, that also has a toxicity. You know, “the dose makes the poison?”
Killing by exposure to radioactivity is the major draw of the “dirty bombers.” Death by HE just ain’t dead enough.
Richard may be aware that “young” spent nuclear fuel defends itself from theft because it is so radioactive that it will kill you promptly if you open the shielding (shipping) containers.
But keep that panic train going!
Toot toot.
The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.
Bertrand Russell
Hey, settle down.
Om knows this topic.
Bertrand Russell was a dipstick socialist, not a political sage.
Om. I mentioned poison. But it would be a long time until the mess locked like a pile of just plain old metal dust. Which, itself, would have been spread with malicious intent. And likely drawing the appropriate response anyway.
Richard:
Details matter, unless you just want to spread anxiety.
I.think they’ve had a bomb for a long time (bought it). They haven’t used it because the retaliation, but I think they have one!
Let’s stop with the BS about the US losing in Viet Nam. The US won the war in Viet Nam, but lost the peace. Or, rather, the Democrats threw away the chance to make something from the success of the war. South Vietnam could have been something like South Korea is today, if the Democrat party was not so determined to withdraw aid to spite the Republicans. Biden did a parallel thing in Afghanistan.
om. Details matter. When they’re appropriate to the issue. Suppose in the affected area you can get a lethal dose–death within the month, let us say–in a day. How long until there’s no threat whatsoever? Yeah, at a given point, it would take a week. But to no threat?
And, absent a huge blast over the town, does the response change to a sternly-worded letter?
Details matter.
Or do details matter only when they suit your “argument?”
What does “no threat whatsoever” supposed to mean? Excess cancer risk (1 in 1 million) for the general public living at the site or a worker exposed 8x40x50x entire working life?
Co-60 is a metal, Cs-137 can be a salt, cesium chloride, a soluble salt, or in a non-soluble ceramic (IIRC). Do you know the difference? How small are the particles of contamination?
Is the exposure from direct radiation (beta or gamma) or from eating or, breathing in the radionuclide contaminant (routes of exposure)? Do you know that the dose from beta, gamma, neutrons decreases with distance? Double the distance and the dose decreases by four times? “Time, distance, shielding.” Do you know what that means and why it saves lives?
And what is the “sternly-worded letter” supposed to mean?
Richard, it sure sounds like you are approaching Keith levels. Which is a disappointment.
Toot, toot.
@Keith
That’s ironic considering how deeply Bertrand Russel fit that quote, Keith.
Also, you have demonstrated you do not know enough of the world to give commentary on it. You are a fool and fanatic of great shame and disrepute, and have demonstrated that many times over. You certainly aren’t wise, and neither was Russel.
Om: Time, distance and shielding.
Double gloves. Double booties. Step-off pads.
LSA = Leave That Shit Alone!
Good times.
Well when it comes Turtler, om, and I’ll throw in sdferr, I know who not to mess with
Turtler
AppleBetty:
Underground Radiological Material Area, Contamination Area, Airborne Radioactive Area, High Contamination Area, CAM alarm, “PNADS,” Radiological Work Permits, ….., Fixed Contamination, Smearable Contamination, High Radiation Area, Dose Extension.
All in many days work.
Large Area Smear (don’t sit there!)
Don’t get crapped up.
🙂
om
Missed again. The affected area of a dirty bomb is not a test tube in a lab, right next to The Handbook Of Chemistry and Physics. Just as having worked on “the Pile” and nearby after 9-11 wasn’t risk free.
I know about the metals. Point is…. if there’s a whole lot more than there didn’t used to be in a given spot….that spot is different. That’s a difficult concept, I know. And maybe someone might be cross with the guys who put it there.. Does the Periodic Table allow for that? Radiation or not. “sternly worded letter” means–this is a metaphor so listen carefully–does having been afflicted with a dirty bomb mean the victims don’t care as much as if it had been a nuclear blast. So…what is there response?
As to “lethal” , define it any way you wish. Either the risk, under that definition, is greater than it used to be or it isn’t. Whether you speak of being in a hazmat suit or a bib overalls, if there’s a difference in mortality withing a week, month, or a couple of months of conditions far more common among those exposed than the rest of the country, there’s a problem. You okay with that?
Richard Aubrey:
I do not work in the text books you snark about. I work in radiological contaminated areas, and have worked in Pu-contaminated areas, not just fission products, so stop blowing smoke out of your ass.
These aren’t test tubes or insurance sales. You are getting closer to becoming a Keith-level fool.
You define your scenario, how much of which isotope, spread over what area, in what form. Do the math or modeling, or testing (ya think the feds might have some data, bozo). It’s not like this hasn’t been a scenario since the USSR collapsed, or 9/11/2001. Or just blow more smoke.
Tiresome.
Be careful folks everyone who disagrees with turtle and Om is stupid . They have never been wrong, just ask them they will tell you. I use to think that if someone had to tell you how smart they were you should ignore them . But I stand in amazement of these two guys. Legends in their own mind .You have been warned .
This me avoiding ad hominem deserved or otherwise. Per request
Keith cannot read it appears. I don’t work with or on dirty bombs, just radiologically contaminated soils and facilities. Sr-90, Cs-137, Pu, spent nuclear fuel. I don’t sell insurance or blow smoke. Have you done any of that Keith, not the smoke blowing?
I am not a radiological protection engineer or health physicist. I know to ask them for answers regarding dose and safety, not some bullshitter.
And as to Richard Aubrey’s deep need to know how bad a dirty bomb could be you have to modeling to come up with a risk number for predicted health effects (including excess deaths) because, wait for it, it comes down to probabilities.
Tiresome.
@Keith
This is fucking hilarious projection coming from you, given your ranting about “Israel Firsters.”
But no, for the record, I do not in fact think that. I have disagreed with a great many people on many points before without thinking they are stupid. That includes with the blogmistress. You can see one such example here.
https://thenewneo.com/2024/02/09/elie-wiesel-and-anti-semitism/#comment-2722634
https://thenewneo.com/2022/05/06/russia-were-bravely-fighting-those-jewish-nazis-all-over-the-place/#comment-2622383
I do regard some people who disagree with me on SOME Points such as that Ward Boston is a truth teller about the USS Liberty to be stupid, but that is not because of disagreeing with me about anything at all – again, I’ve disagreed with Om, with Neo, and with many more – but because of the merits (or lack thereof) of this.
I regard you as not merely stupid but mendacious because of your refusal to engage in good faith, your attempts to move goal posts to avoid addressing matters, vagueness in defining terms, refusal to admit to limits on knowledge, willingness to shill for unethical and hostile sources that you wouldn’t normally give time of day to if it is convenient when it fits your narrative.
You have done absolutely nothing to dissuade me of these conclusions on here. Especially your misuse of terms like “isotopes” and the term ad hominem.
I’ve been wrong plenty of times, am wrong about several things now (though NOT on this subject), and will be wrong on many things in the future.
The difference, Jew Hating Dumbfuck, is that I try to admit when I am wrong, including on minor issues.
https://thenewneo.com/2024/05/24/rewarding-the-terrorists-why-do-many-people-believe-in-the-2-state-solution-at-this-point-and-want-to-reward-hamas-with-a-state/#comment-2741531
You do not.
Indeed you actively work to avoid engaging with evidence, addressing counter-arguments, admitting wrongdoing, admitting errors, or doing any accountability.
The problem with not accepting accountability is that also means nobody is under any obligation to take account of you.
And the consequences of this are evident here. You completely and totally ignored any discussion of the downsides of using a dirty bomb from the Iranian POV. You completely and totally ignored the Israeli radiation screening that would and has helped neutralize much of the threat from this. You completely and totally ignored the fact that the Iranian attempts to strike Diego Garcia failed and failed completely in spite of having the element of surprise and a much less dense countermeasure field than Israel does, which did great damage to incoming enemy attacks including from Iran.
And you are wondered why I call you out.
That’s hilarious coming from a dumbfuck who repeatedly cited Ward Boston, a dishonest racist idiot who will never, ever stop trying to monetize and weaponize his admittedly very real and tragic history as a survivor of the Liberty in order to claim a monopoly on truth and how much of an expert he is, in spite of how this involved peddling provably bogus claims such as about the number of IDF Aircraft deployed and the content of the IDF transmissions independently intercepted and decoded by US intelligence.
And moreover your own attempts to tell us how smart you are in relation to us, albeit in a backhanded manner of “not as smart as you think.”
And by the way chowderhead, I’m entirely willing to accept I am not as smart as I think I am. The problem for you is that I am smart enough to realize that isn’t particularly relevant in this case. What is relevant is how smart and knowledgeable I am about This Given Set of Topics compared to You.
And I think the evidence for that is overwhelming, crushing, conclusive, and irrefutable. You certainly have not even attempted a coherent effort to disprove it, and the handful of sporadic attempts to make pinpricks to that extent like bringing up Diego Garcia as if it were relevant or supportive of your case have Failed Miserably.
I imagine you stand in amazement of a fuckton of things, including the idea that there is some logical problem with the idea that Israel and its radioactive security and detection suites cannot stop Iran from putting a dirty bomb on the temple mount, but it can somehow control American politics. Or that “dirty bomb” has different meanings.
But that has little to do with us and everything to do with you.
That’s ironic projection from you.
And for the record, I work for a living on some of these fields.
And having chosen to discard those warnings and attempts at constructive engagement and continue on your stupid, jihad shilling, Jew hating path, I am under no obligation to pretend otherwise.
Go fuck yourself. You did not “avoid ad hominem” in this post. At all.
Indeed, basically every single point of this post of yours is nothing BUT Ad Hominem Attacks, and it amounts to an Ad Hominem Fallacy, and trolling.
Sure, it’s got less namecalling or harsh language than my response. But it also has none of the merit, argumentation, or evidence. It is literally just namecalling.
“Legends in their own mind”, “Never been wrong about anything, just ask them”, etc. And you outright claim that we deserve even worse ad hominems than you have posted.
At no point do you make a case. At no point do you provide evidence (you abandoned that after I shot down your Diego Garcia example), At no point to you try to clarify definitions. You’re trafficking in ad hominem fallacies and being a troll.
And frankly at this point I see no reason why Neo sees value in wasting time or space on such a bad faith actor on this blog, but then as I’ve pointed before I have disagreed with her on the past and will again. That doesn’t make one of us wrong, and it doesn’t mean she is always the wrong one if there is such a case.
Because reasonable and honest people can disagree and err without being dishonest, incompetent, deceitful, or malicious.
But you are not a reasonable or honest person. Your track record thus far shows that in spades.
Turtler, Om…why are you feeding the troll?
@HC68
To highlight the troll’s follies and help shut it down.
@No Prizes
Or rather, No Sense.
For the record fuckhead, Neo has a rather hands off, libertarian approach to moderation regarding invective as a whole. And not just towards “pro-Zionist.”
(PS Shithead: the Iranian regime isn’t just “anti-Zionist.” It is Anti-Jewish Existence, Period. Hence things like its sponsorship of terrorist attacks in Argentina and Germany, and steady erosion and persecution of its own dhimmi domestic Jewish population, not unlike similar attitudes towards Christians).
Lest you doubt that, Zaphod – who has most infamously come up as a troll sockpuppeting other users’ names – was tolerated for literal years in spite of his tendency to get into unhinged anti-Jewish and anti-Zionist prattle, because the other comments were not so unhinged. And eventually it was truly egregious conduct from Zaphod that finally got him the ban.
You could check all this if you were actually interested in the truth. But I think we both can be pretty sure on whether you are or not.
Moreover, if you actually bother looking at Keith’s conduct and claims honestly, his invective is at least as vile and often moreso than me. It includes blood libel, blatant ad hominem fallacies, smears against other Americans that do not toe his particularly deranged anti-Israel line, and so on. But because I tried to engage honestly and far more calmly and got no result, I decide to take the gloves off.
But not without losing the core purpose or strategy. To detail, analyze, and respond to the claims. To provide constructive content. That is in sharp contrast to Keith. It is in sharp contrast to you.
She can and has on occasion, but in my case it’s that I bother laying out the case, mustering evidence, and bringing arguments.
My language gets salty on occasion, especially when dealing with people acting in provably bad faith and generally being idiots, which I think the evidence shows Keith is. Is that a weakness of mine? Ok, sure. Is it one I particularly care about? No.
Certainly not compared to you trying to character assassinate our host.
I’ve never seen Neo pretend that, but it is pretty telling that she generally has to smack people around for peddling blatant racism or eliminationist bigotry. That is what Zaphod got in trouble for.
None of my language is akin to that. I have no problem with Iranians as a whole, and indeed pointed out that much of the problem is how they are cruelly murdered by their own regime and its allies. Likewise Arabs.
Do what herself?
Neo has been quite happy to do it herself, and be vocal on doing so and why.
Zaphod, is that you? Still salty?
om. Pretending to miss the point is not as effective a rhetorical technique as somebody told you.
Point about a dirty bomb is that the area is different from what it was before the Event. And, no matter what you say about a hypothetical situation on another continent, it will likely have serious negatived consequences, metal and isotope types notwithstanding. And the people in the country so attacked are going to be mad about it, your view of the isotopes involved notwithstanding. But if it’s so mellow, nobody dead for a month maybe, and no nasty explosion, are they going to respond differently than if they’d witnessed the Big Flash? And would the would-be assailants feel safer using a dirty bomb than a real nuke? Or, not having a nuke, figure that a dirty bomb would do most of the work they want done–that which is within their means–and they aren’t going to be re-nuked because…..
Richard Aubrey:
At this point I don’t know what your point is, beyond
you don’t like specifics,
you don’t like actual relevant experience, but
you do like to say say nuclear weapons and terrorism are bad.
What a waste of time this has become.
Toot, toot. All aboard the dirty bomb train.
@neo If the new comment system is the cause of the huge increase of the coarseness of the debate here, I would chalk it up as a failure.
I’m kidding. Except for the coarseness part. I feel like someone has set off a dirty bomb in the comments section.
Rick Gutleber:
It appears you haven’t been paying attention to “sock puppets” who impersonate people. That is one problem neo is trying to staunch.
PSA (public service announcement).
Regarding isodopes; Seazium-666 is especially icky, you can’t wash it off, it sticks to the bottoms of your sneakers, and your dead before you know …
Keith: Be careful folks everyone who disagrees with turtle and Om is stupid.
No, but: I vividly remember my first few trips to nuclear power plants.
I studied, prep’d seriously. I thought I knew what was important.
The people working there were kind and patient, but I soon saw that day-to-day, on the ground: they knew what was important.
I knew the chemistry pretty well, but I didn’t do nothing without an OK from the health physics people.
om. Couple of points; specifics aren’t actually useful until we know the composition of the weapon. And you’re not going to be talking to me. You’re going to be talking to a nation which has a half ton of whatever it is spread all over a valuable part of their nation, and explaining to them they don’t have to worry because you know more about isotopes.
Neo:
Having read through this entire thread, all I can say is I hope the new comment system, when it arrives, is a little more high-minded.
F:
It’s already arrived!
It will emerge over time, however, whether it works to do what it’s intended to do, which is basically to discourage or even eliminate trolls.
I’ve had trolls here from the very start, over 20 years ago. Most of the time the readers don’t see them for long if at all. But the system wasn’t perfect. We’ll see how this goes.
Is anyone who disagrees with the turtle and his side kick a troll ? It does seem that we have two sets of rules . We are all equal here ,but some are more equal than others. But that being said Neo , your house , your rules.
Poor Keith:
Is he talking to the mouse in his pocket, or using the royal “We.”
I don’t view Keith as a troll. Or a malicious sock puppet. Though he is not always cogent.
Richard Aubrey:
For someone who doesn’t like details saying 1000 pounds of fission products is a bit inconsistent. Are you going to specify the inventory used as well? Earlier you were talking about sand bags of fission products dumped from a pick up truck. In the enriched uranium (U-235) dirty bomb thread you thought that was plausible, ignoring how costly and previous highly enriched U-235 is to the mad muhlahs.
Or just stick with your blowing smoke?
Toot, toot.
Don’t become your own parody.
It appears you don’t want to know anything about the fission products. Because you are a big wise thinker or just particularly anxious and invested.
Edit function gone AWOL, or I took too long.
“previous” should be precious as in
“how costly and precious highly enriched U-235 is …”
Last sentence should close with “?” not “.”
I’m getting a big head.
om:
I agree that Keith is not a troll.
Are you saying the edit function didn’t show up for your comment?
neo:
Regarding the edit function, I probably exceeded the clock, typing on the smart phone and “helped” by auto correct.
om:
Glad it’s working, then.
Autocorrect can be very annoying.
@Keith
As I pointed out to your now deleted friend here, the number of people that have disagreed with me includes Neo the Blog Host. If I did hold anyone who disagreed with me to be a troll, I would be in a very tough spot.
That being said I will beg to differ from Om and Neo at least on this case, and argue you are trolling now. You have long ago ceased to try making any logical point or argument on this thread. This thread started over the question of Iranian dirty bombs versus other forms of nuclear missile and if we would always be able to kill the crazies later (something I would think a study of Pakistan’s history as “the Islamic Bomb” holding state and its aftershocks would argue against). I have made my case.
You have long ago stopped even trying to make your own. Now we are reduced to your pearl clutching about what I define as a troll for half a dozen comments without addressing the topic or arguments, and the last time you attempted to do so it was as great a miss as the Iranian launches against Diego Garcia.
And that was a few comments ago.
This kind of conduct is ironically one of the best arguments that you are a troll or at least acting like one here and now. That is not as malicious or remorseless or meritless as what Zaphod has done or a fair few others, but it is still quite bad. And I am not inclined to waste my time pretending otherwise.
We are not all equal here, Neo is expressly the blog owner and what she says goes.
But beyond that not all comments or commenters are alike in dignity or competence. I have been writing here for years, often in great detail and care and with civility towards those that disagree with me in good faith and even initially towards those that do not. I have built up a significant amount of credit and good will among several commenters and the Blogmother not because we always agree – we do not – or because I am always right – I am not – but because I am sincere, I make an effort, I try and focus on topics and address them, and I do not resort to ad hominem fallacies as a substitute for said topics.
And I also punish idiots like those sprouting Ward Boston’s claptrap ruthlessly and remorselessly.
Indeed. If you wish to make your own house and rules, you are welcome to Keith and I will steadfastly defend your God Given right to do so as I have for many others I disagree with or even find disgusting or ridiculous.
A nuclear dirty bomb doesn’t seem like a great weapon to me, it’s effects take too long, they aren’t controllable and the attack will cross a line and enrage the target people. Probably a lot of other people too.
If Iran tried that against the US, you would really see the gloves come off in the American response.
Even the mullahs understand that.
Huxley
The gloves would come off if Trump were president.
— huxley
A dirty bomb is more of a terrorist’s weapon than a military weapon. As you note, it’s not an effective military weapon.
One thing that worries me about that sort of thing is precisely that somebody other than Iran (or whoever) might try to use one and throw the blame on somebody else. “Let’s you and him fight.”
I’m not saying that’s a likely scenario right now, but it’s the sort of thing that could happen when anger is running high. One of the things I credit Bush the Younger with in 2001 is precisely not indulging the angry shouts to do idiotic things like ‘bomb Mecca’.