So, will we find out about Trump’s health records tomorrow or won’t we?
This campaign season continues in the “interesting—perhaps too interesting” vein.
Each of the candidates is lucky that his/her opponent is the other one. Each is shifty and untrustworthy, although in somewhat different ways. They both have sky-high unfavorables. And they both are—shall we say—of a certain age.
Both also have running mates who could take over if necessary without so very many voters batting an eye.
That said, it is my distinct impression that whatever Trump’s actual health and Hillary’s actual health, Trump gives much more of an appearance of being hale and hearty. He has a certain vigor to his person that she lacks, even without the symptoms she’s shown now and then (her chronic cough being a good example). When Hillary is talking she certainly does have some energy, but it seems forced and strained, although that could be an emotional rather than a physical thing.
[NOTE: For the record, I’m well aware of the “Hillary has Parkinson’s” rumors and I don’t think Clinton has a serious neurological disease such as Parkinson’s. I probably will write a post on that sometime soon, explaining why I say it.]
” When Hillary is talking she certainly does have some energy, but it seems forced and strained…”
They’re shooting her up.
I have seen lots of people leaving a place and being helped into a vehicle like Hillary leaving her latest event. Except on those occasions the place being left was a bar and the vehicle was a taxi.
Otherwise everything was the same.
Clinton has had more than a few health problems during the last 10 years. I have serious doubts she could take the stress that comes with being POTUS. Trump seems vigorous and has shown no signs of fatigue as he races from rally to rally and interview to interview. BTW, that is not an endorsement on my part. 😉
I’m rooting for her to try and “power through” an impassioned 60 minute speech.
Nolanimrod:
Three times in my life when I was relatively young (once at about twenty, once in my mid-thirties, and once in the late 1990s—I’ll let you do the math on that one). I felt faint and woozy in public. I just barely managed to get to sit or lie down each time. I’m not sure what was going on, but the first time it was quite hot and I don’t think I’d eaten. The second time I was waiting in a line for a long time, but that was all. The third time was at this art exhibit which literally nauseated me and made me feel very faint and which I had to leave precipitously.
It happens.
She’s had the cough on and off for years, it’s not pneumonia. I had walking pneumonia about a year ago, which made me cough and tired with flu like symptons. Two weeks of penicillin cured it. It’s hard to believe that she contracts it over and over.
This MD makes a good case that it’s Parkinson’s. What’s very bizzare are the strange exaggerated “fun house laughs” in the video. They are apparently common with the disease.
The doctor. https://youtu.be/Zr1IDQ2V1eM
A fun house laugh at 2:21. https://youtu.be/pbADKnTCCyI
Paul in Boston:
Did you read my post on Monday? If you did, you would know that her chronic cough is unrelated to her pneumonia, except that when she went to the doctor for the chronic cough they also discovered the pneumonia.
The two are different in both cause and symptoms, but you can certainly have a chronic cough and then get pneumonia. Each are very common.
In addition—no, that doctor (an anesthesiologist, by the way, not a neurologist) does not make a good case that it’s Parkinson’s, except to those who know next to nothing about Parkinson’s and/or those who want to believe she has it.
I will get into it in my post, but the summary is that her symptoms don’t fit and she lacks all the cardinal symptoms of the disease necessary for a diagnosis.
Oh c’mon Neo.
You’re not even an anesthesiologist.You remind me of my office-worker daughter. She reads up on medical issues on-line and tells her MD dad what she’s concluded. Like her young son needed to see a pediatric orthopedist because she’d determined his ankles look funny.
The orthopedic surgeon told her the boy’s ankles were normal.
And if you get medical records from Trump, will you believe them?
After that absurd note from his doctor, I wouldn’t.
Jim Miller:
To tell you the truth, I don’t believe much of anything from either candidate.
Frog, do you agree with the anesthesiologist?
Frog:
No, of course I’m not a doctor. Nor do I hold myself out to be one.
But that doesn’t mean I can’t gather information and draw conclusions that can at times be superior to that of some random doctor with an agenda (I’m referring to Dr. Noel, he of the Parkinson’s opinion, not to you).
As I said, Clinton lacks the cardinal signs of Parkinson’s. I said I’d be writing a post about it, and I don’t have time to get into the details now, but even the one sign she has exhibited, albeit rarely (postural instability) is a late sign of the illness and not an early one, and in the absence of other signs would not be considered evidence of Parkinson’s when there are so many other possible explanations.
Simply put, if she has Parkinson’s, it’s one of the most unusual and atypical cases on record.
As far as doctors go, I certainly respect them in general. But that doesn’t mean that they’re not often wrong. I have had many many experiences in my life when they have been wrong and blatantly, obviously so, sometimes in my case but particularly with friends and family. I have had the experience of sometimes catching these errors and being able to find a doctor who corrects them.
Does that make me better than a doctor at diagnosing things? No, of course not. But it makes me better in some instances, and involving some doctors. I certainly can look at a situation and make my own observations about what’s going on, which I do here.
Neo at 4:15. I.e., no hand tremors as the prime sympton?
“it is my distinct impression that whatever Trump’s actual health and Hillary’s actual health, Trump gives much more of an appearance of being hale and hearty”
That’s a key point because the importance of appearance is well, yuuge, in a world which is in constant hook-up mode re visual media.
Neo, it is not about what she does not have, but rather what diagnosis she DOES have. Whatever it is, it is not good. She has a known set of disorders, including hypercoagulability.
Part of the experience that yields sound clinical judgment is what we call “differential diagnosis”: what possible diagnoses are on the list that could cause those symptoms, be they infectious, degenererative, neoplastic, genetic, etc. etc.
A lawyer’s job is to win an argument. A doc’s job is to be correct. There is a difference.
You propose to refute the possibility of Parkinson’s, and I agree that many of the typical features are missing. But we have insufficient clinical data, period, so an argument whether or not she has Parkinsonian features is (ahem) moot. Who has tested her for cogwheel rigidity? Who has done a Romberg (part of a decent neuro exam unrelated to Parkinson’s, for her unsteadiness) on her? A mental status exam? I could bore you to tears with neurological questions that we cannot answer about Hillary.
Bottom line (1) is she has been effectively in hiding. No press conferences, everything scripted and probably Telepromptered, no questions taken.
Bottom line (2) is that she is ethically, morally AND biologically unfit for any responsible position, never mind POTUS.
Frog:
I’m not a lawyer, you know. And when I talk about Hillary’s possible diagnoses, I’m well aware that we all have insufficient information. Including any person who says she has Parkinson’s.
Nor do I exclude it; I don’t have enough information. However, it is very very clear that the evidence we do have absolutely does NOT support such a diagnosis, so I am trying to counter such idle, misleading, and propagandist misinformation on the part of anyone, be it a doctor (Dr. Noel, the anesthesiologist) or anyone else. What evidence we do have does not point in that direction of Parkinson’s at all.
I think I’ve made that pretty clear.
Note that I don’t venture a guess as to what serious illness she might have, beyond a possible allergy or GERD-related chronic cough, and possible pneumonia and dehydration last Sunday. My suspicion (as I think I have also made clear in several posts) is that she’s not divulging the entire truth. But I have no idea what she is actually hiding, or whether it is serious or not. My point is that there is no reason to suppose it is Parkinson’s.
By the way, I have continued to interact with you with politeness and respect. You’ve not returned the favor when you write that I remind you of a relative who thought her kid’s ankles “looked funny” but was wrong about it.
As a matter of fact, it has become a sort of running joke among my friends that if they have symptoms that have stumped their doctors, they ask me to do some research and give my advice. Often, I have managed to point them in the right direction and it has led to the proper diagnosis and treatment. Nothing esoteric, usually, either.
It seems odd to someone living across the Pacific to have two roughly 70 year olds campaigning for what is likely to be an 8 year gig.
The major health concern with Trump is the health concern one would have for any septuagenarian man: heart attack.
Mayan:
Believe me, it seems odd to many of us, too.
It certainly seems odd to me.
Paul in Boston:
No hand tremors, and none of the four signs of Parkinson’s.
Hillary’s “postural instability” was only exhibited in public on Sunday, and it was (a) not of the type that Parkinson’s causes; and (b) in the absence of other Parkinson’s symptoms would not be a symptom of it, because it’s usually a later symptom not an earlier one.
There is no way to know what ails hrc unless she comes clean on her medical records, and that ain’t gonna happen. Yes, fainting, falling, uncontrolled coughing, concussions, blood clots, etc. point to poor health. Guessing from a far is silly even if done by actual doctors. Bantering back and forth is futile. All we know is hrc has given us ample reasons to suspect she has serious health issues.
Apologies, Neo. But people who research the Web, like my daughter as an example, often make spurious diagnoses.
Like I said earlier, I don’t care what ailment(s) Hillary does not have. I care about correct diagnosis, not a coverup facilitated by Dr. Lisa Barnack.
parker is correct in his comment, even if he won’t vote against Hillary unless it’s real close. Do I have that right, parker?
I think we can all agree that absent some real medical work-ups and release of her records, conjectures about Clinton’s health are just that—conjectures. Like you Neo, I am not a doctor but I am a very observant and well-informed layperson who has always been interested in science in general and medicine in particular. I have correctly ascertained the need for medical follow-up countless times with myself, family, and friends by noticing symptoms and problems. So FWIW, I do not think that all of her problems can be explained by flu, pneumonia, dehydration, or exhaustion. Some of them, sure. But I’ve felt very lightheaded at times myself and once fell to my hands and knees with sight and sound blacking out. In that condition I would not have been able to stand rigidly, like a plank, leaning against the concrete pillar like Clinton. You’d be slumping, leaning over, bending over, wanting to sit or lay down. There was just something really weird going on with her legs—her upper body and neck were still rigid and at attention, but it was like she lost complete and utter control of her lower body as they tried to help her into the van. So, my suspicions are raised, but my mind is open and eager for hard data.
You are correct Frog, I will not vote for djt unless it looks like a close contest for Iowa’s measley 7 electoral votes. I doubt those 7 votes will be a deciding factor; but we are all strangers in a strange land this election cycle so who knows? Certainly not me.
BTW, not voting for djt is not voting for hrc unless one actually votes for hrc. That is something I would not do. Vote for the donald or else its a vote for hrc when your state’s electoral votes are not in question is, frankly, illogical unless one is a die hard trumpian. Voting for djt in NY will be pissing into the wind. It might make a resident of NY feel good, but its still pissing to a whirlwind.
Dad told me to never piss towards an approaching tornado.
😉
Neo, not to dispute you in general because I think you are probably correct, but the hand or foot tremor of early stage Parkinson’s can be consciously controlled. My stepfather would tuck his right foot under a chair leg at dinner and clutch a utensil even when not eating to hide the shakes. Dr. Noel pointed out Hillary’s middle finger trick when gesturing and pressing her hand to her chest afterword. Very suspicious.
The Other Chuck:
Yes, it can be consciously controlled in the early stages at times. For a while. But not all the time. Hillary has never been observed to have a hand or foot tremor, not that I’ve ever seen reported. And this woman is in the public eye constantly, videotaped constantly, and watched like a hawk constantly by the opposition.
She doesn’t have a tremor.
If every now and then she puts her hand in a position that’s a bit odd—for a few seconds, when someone is poring over hours of tapes looking for the moment or a moment like it—then everyone would be observed at times going through an odd gesture or two if their every movement were to be similarly scrutinized.
Look, Clinton might have something or other. She might even develop Parkinson’s some day, as might many people (unfortunately, the illness is not all that uncommon). But she does not have signs of it now.
I have no idea why people want to give her that diagnosis. Is it just a case of lemmings, following the leader? The leader being a few pro-Trump blogs and Dr. Noel, who made a video about it that is completely unconvincing, in my opinion?
Was your stepfather never observed to have a tremor? Was he always able to hide or control it? And did he have none of the three other cardinal signs of Parkinson’s? Somehow I doubt it.
No, my stepfather was not always able to hide the tremor. As the disease progressed it became increasingly difficult for him to suppress it. However, back to Hillary…she did suffer a series of falls, one resulting in a serious concussion and blood clot. Signs of neurological problems should seem warranted. Dismiss Dr. Noel’s “diagnosis” of Parkinson’s all you want, claim he cherry picked videos, etc., but the overall picture is one of a stumbling, fainting, weak-kneed, bobble-headed, coughing wreck. As Vanderleun said, they are pumping her up on something. My guess is steroids and/or amphetamines. The chipmunk cheeks are a dead giveaway for prednisone (which wouldn’t be for Parkinson’s).
As I said, you are probably right that she doesn’t have PD, but she’s sure got some strange symptoms.
http://www.zerohedge.com/sites/default/files/images/user230519/imageroot/Hillary%209-11_1.jpg
The Other Chuck:
I’m not sure how old you are, but at Hillary’s age a lot of people have had a lot of random health problems. She most definitely has a lot of random health problems. But they don’t necessarily add up to all that much, actually. That’s not to say she doesn’t also have some disease or bigger problem. But I have not yet heard a single diagnosis that unifies her symptoms, or a single new disease diagnosis that makes sense.
This is what we know about her; the rest is rumor.
(1) She has a tendency to blood clots and take anticoagulants for that. Blood clots can be relatively minor (in the calf, for example) but they can turn deadly. It is not a sign of good health, but it is not necessarily a big deal, and not altogether uncommon in people her age. It can lead to more serious cardiovascular problems, but not necessarily, and in her case so far it has not led to them.
(2) She has gotten dehydrated twice and both times it has led to bigger problems (word is that she—like many people, and particularly those who are getting on in years—doesn’t always drink enough water). The first time she had an intestinal flu (probably diarrhea), got dehydrated (this is not all that unusual if you lose enough liquid), fainted and sustained a concussion (December 2012). After that a blood clot (in “the vein that is situated in the space between the brain and the skull behind the right ear”) as well as double vision were diagnosed. That is probably the most serious health problem she has had that we know of. She was recovering for about 6 months.
Some people are subject to fainting more easily than others. I know several completely healthy people who have fainted several times for a number of reasons that are innocuous. Fainting is a very non-specific symptom that tells us next to nothing. Nor is it clear that she has fainted many times; she certainly has not done so publicly. In fact, the only documented time (and I don’t think it was publicly) was when she sustained the concussion.
(3) She has a chronic cough which her doctor has said is allergic in nature. This is tremendously common and usually an innocuous although annoying symptom. It is common in people with allergies, and it is common in people with GERD, and both allergies and GERD are also common afflictions in the healthy.
(4) She has an underactive thyroid, which is also a very common problem in post-menopausal woman in particular, and is easily controlled with thyroid replacement, which she takes.
That’s it, folks. Not a picture of health, but nothing much that would disqualify her from holding office. At almost 70, nearly everyone is at risk for cardiovascular problems, which appears to be her most serious risk factor based on her history. People keep using words like “seizures” and “convulsions,” and I’ve watched videos of these so-called seizures or convulsions and that’s does not appear to be what’s happening.
No signs of Parkinson’s, either, as I’ve written before.
Food for thought: Sometimes people have a bias that they are not aware that they have. Being age 75 I often run into ageism from those who have not yet “matured”.
Some pretty hale and hearty youngsters entered what is considered to be one of the toughest endurance races in the world – the American Presidential primary race. After what is generally considered to be a grueling race, we have two winners.
While one is allowed to have whatever opinion one wishes to have about fitness and ability, I would say that those who have won the actual race have a leg up on who is the fittest. Therefore, I get ageism vibes from comment like this:
Mayan says: “It seems odd to someone living across the Pacific to have two roughly 70 year olds campaigning for what is likely to be an 8 year gig.”
neo-neocon Says:
September 14th, 2016 at 5:57 pm
“Mayan:
Believe me, it seems odd to many of us, too.
It certainly seems odd to me.”
notherbob2:
I’m surprised you get ageism vibes from my comment.
First of all, I’m somewhat of an OF (old fart) myself.
Secondly, I don’t think age disqualifies. I just am surprised, because I know that a lot of people do think that.