On Trump: it’s the character
Commenter Geoffrey Britain writes:
The press feeling so free to attack Trump is a reaction to the common perception that his positions are so far “beyond the pale”.
That perception is in turn, a perfect barometer of how far astray Americans, in the aggregate are from admittedly inarticulate, truth. As if a truth’s validity is determined by how well it is articulated. The focus upon Trump’s bombast and clumsiness is an excuse for many not to face the essential truth of his concerns.
Any one of his major issues; the illegal immigration of millions who are culturally hostile to America’s founding culture, Muslim migration that is projected to double their numbers in less than a decade and an obscene trade imbalance hanging over our heads”¦ are mortal threats to our republic and will destroy us, if left to half way measures.
Geoffrey touches on something that is at least partly true, but probably irrelevant at this point. Indeed, the press does focus on positions of Trump’s that are perceived by many people (particularly by liberals and the left) as beyond the pale. And the press also criticizes Trump for not articulating those positions well.
But that is not why Trump is losing, IMHO. Oh, it’s why a lot of liberals and of course the left won’t be voting for him, but they were never going to vote for him in the first place. But in fact, one of the main reasons Trump has done as well as he has so far is that so many Americans are in favor of many of his positions, in particular his positions on illegal immigration.
Why he’s not doing even better than he is right now with the general public is based on something entirely different, and it has little to do with the spin of anything the MSM is writing or has written about Trump. The problem—and it’s a big big problem, probably the biggest for Trump—is that, despite some popular policy positions of his, a lot of people do not trust him, and that distrust is based on Trump himself and does not require any distortion or lies by the press (although of course the press will add some distortions and lies).
For example, you couldn’t find someone much more generally critical of the MSM than I am. I don’t base my opinions on the opinions of pundits in the MSM. I pay attention to Trump himself. I read Trump’s own speeches. I watch the debates without watching (or if I watch, without caring in the least) what pundits say about them. I read interviews with Trump and I analyze his words. And I’ve watched his old interviews and new, going way back quite a ways, long before he was a candidate in 2016. I compare what he said years ago, or even what he said yesterday, to what he says today. I’ve looked at the facts of his life and his own words about his own life, as well as lawsuits in which he’s been defendant and lawsuits in which he’s been plaintiff.
And I’ve decided I cannot trust a great deal of what he says. I cannot state strongly enough how little I trust him to keep his political word, or to have any fidelity to the issues he seems to be promoting at the moment. If he did become president, he certainly might turn out to be trustworthy on some of them, but I cannot tell ahead of time which ones they might be or whether there even are any such issues.
I am assuming many many other people see something similar, and they don’t need the MSM to tell them about it. Trump himself gives them reason to feel that way and very little reason to feel otherwise, and he has no political history that would tell us otherwise, either.
Not to mention his many other character flaws: he defames people (and lies about them into the bargain), and he is impulsive, mercurial, and really does act at times as though he is somewhat unbalanced. He’s not crazy, but he has demonstrated many character traits—even during this campaign season itself—that frighten people and make them not trust him in terms of his basic character as a human being in addition to his character as a political candidate. You may think that shouldn’t matter, but it does matter, and it has always mattered.
Now, you can certainly counter with the idea that Hillary Clinton is a liar and extremely untrustworthy, too. And indeed, she is. And I’m not voting for her, but if I were a liberal in tune with her policy positions, I would actually consider her quite trustworthy in terms of her politics, on which she is consistently liberal/leftist. With Hillary, politically, what you see if what you get, and if you like what you see, you might vote for it despite her flaws. She also has a surface manner (as does Obama) that seems relatively steady and statesmanlike (albeit she is a bit older and more unsteady than before), certainly relative to Trump, and people care about that sort of thing.
None of this is just due to media manipulation. It’s due to exactly the same sort of thing that happens with a jury evaluating a witness on the stand, and it’s something known as “demeanor.”
Trump needed to convince many undecided people in the vast middle that he had a trustworthy character in the sense that he could make decisions based on more than impulsiveness and narcissism, and could be relied on to tell the truth at least most of the time. He hasn’t done it with enough of them so far, and I don’t see that changing (in part because people have seen otherwise from him for about a year already). The MSM was always going to be on the Trump attack as soon as he was the GOP nominee, and not only did he have to know that but everyone here probably knew it, too. And yet he has failed, and failed utterly, to act in a way to counter what the MSM was inevitably going to do.
To those who point out that Trump’s teleprompter speeches are often good, my answer is that political speeches are a funny thing. We know that most politicians have input into their own speeches but usually do not write them. We never know quite how much input into their speeches they have, however—some candidates have more, some less. But all candidates rest on a certain fiction that their speeches are the work of the politicians themselves. Even if we know the speeches are written by others, we certainly believe that for the most part the speeches represent the candidates’ political positions and intentions, although we also realize that some things they say in speeches are just manipulative, pie-in-the-sky promises. And for someone like Obama, many Americans who were initial supporters came to realize that many of his healing words were sheer hypocrisy. But the entire enterprise with most candidates rests on the perception of a certain identity, a certain merging between candidate and speech.
Trump is different, because the gap between his extemporaneous remarks (including Tweets) and his scripted speeches is much larger than that displayed by any other politician, so much so that for many listeners it is too wide to cross. Many Trump-watchers cannot escape the idea that his speeches are something that other people write and that he is just reading them, and that they represent the opinions of his aides and advisors, and that for him they are opinions du jour only.
In other words, the fiction that all politicians try to create—that we are hearing a fair representation of the mind of the speaker—breaks down in the case of Trump and becomes unbelievable to a great many listeners (I am one of them, I might add).
[NOTE: You may have noticed that Trump actually agrees with me on quite a few issues (I’m not suggesting I have any influence on him; just that we happen to agree). Some of these issues involve one of the very things that Geoffrey Britain has mentioned, illegal immigration. For example, on this blog I originally criticized his “ban Muslims” suggestions and made a proposal of my own about a political test for immigrants, and he seems to have decided to incorporate something of the sort into his recent foreign policy speech. I think that many people are actually in agreement with many things Trump says (in particular on illegal immigration) and troubled by others (his stance on freedom of speech or telling the military to obey illegal orders, for example). But if it was limited to that—and if he was just “bombastic and clumsy” (GB’s terms) in articulating those positions—it would be much less of a problem, and he would have a lot more support than he does. Unfortunately, Trump’s flaws are much wider and much more basic than that, and they act to make a lot of people distrust him on such a deep level that it negates the policy agreements they might actually have with him.]
I think one of the main reasons that Trump has done well is because he destroyed the future leadership roles of 16 Conservative presidential contenders. That was amusing and entertaining in the Primary, but in the General it doesn’t fly as amusing or entertaining.
I guess I’m just jaded, but I don’t feel afraid or threatened by Trump. What I am seeing in someone not schooled in politics and political intrigue, but if he was as unbalanced and scary as everyone keeps telling me, we would have heard about it way before now. He has been in the public eye for years and years and no one, not his business partners or enemies have ever said he was unbalanced or a racist or anything else that have been screamed at us by the media and different websites. He is not Hillary, that is why the media hates him, and he is not the established GOP candidate, one that was acceptable to the elites. Yes he has a lot to learn politically and he is learning on the fly, but the people that have read his speeches and have heard him speak love that he speaks what the common folk have been saying for years. it’s just no one would listen to them. Now someone is listening.
@Dagon – well, amusing for some – I was not amused.
The GOP needs (major) change – that we can agree on. Ultimately, our governing needs change.
While trump encapsulated some of the reasons for change, he was / is not an agent for the kinds of change we need.
Neo’s essential argument is that Trump can’t win the undecided or independent 20% because of his character. Fair enough.
But my key point is that he is running against a CRIMINAL and I am not exaggerating. Her character is 100 times worse than Trump’s.
On a personal level what kind of a woman would stay married to Bill Clinton? Easy answer. A craven and morally bankrupt woman who made a business deal with another criminal.
Setting up her private email server and the way she used it was a crime despite Comey’s decision. The real reason it was set up was to continue the CFF criminal enterprise.
Bill and Hillary sold official acts for money. Bribery. It wasn’t just access. Bribery and near treason. The uranium deal, Hati and we don’t know what else.
My real concern is that her money desire – if elected POTUS – will be the deciding factor in key decisions. TPP is just one. Dealing with Iran is another. Yeah, she’d sell us out for $500m tax free. Diamonds and gold in Switerland. Recall that Buffett is worth billions; HRC only $50M.
And I know Neo disagrees with me on this, but Hillary is dumb as a rock. If one is going to run a multi-million dollar bribery scheme spend whatever it takes so that the server doesn’t get hacked. She’s an idiot with terrible judgment.
The above being said, I’m not too hopeful. Two of my sisters are voting for HRC because of the historic first woman thing. He lags badly with young people; they bought the racism charge. I have no clue how that racism charge stuck to Trump. It was factually accurate that rapists did come from Mexico. An 80 year old woman was raped in her Omaha home a few years back by an illegal. Mainly people get caught up in trivia.
Cornhead:
My point about Hillary is that people trust that she will toe the liberal political line, and they consider both candidates corrupt liars, so she comes out ahead on that score because at least they think they know what they will get politically. Trump is seen as a loose cannon. And it’s not just because the MSM says so.
As for what woman would stay with a cheater like Clinton, my answer is “plenty of them.” Those women will not judge her harshly. There are many reasons that women from time immemorial have stayed with a cheater, and not necessarily because they themselves are of bad character.
That said, Hillary’s bad character is shown in multiple other ways.
Can someone teach this Britain fellow how to use a goddamn comma?
Cornhead says:
“But my key point is that he is running against a CRIMINAL and I am not exaggerating. Her character is 100 times worse than Trump’s.”
So…Neo…Are you going to keep repeating the same anti-Trump trope every day & pining for some new GOPe-approved warrior or are you going to face the harsh light of this election reality: Criminal or Trump?
Because when HRC as Pres legalizes 10-20 million illegals, & does her deals with the richest devils that the Legislative Branch won’t prosecute, we will have passed the point of no return.
@Neo – thanks for putting that together.
It has been his mutability that creates a huge sense of risk with trump.
He could be bombastic and provocative, BUT, when he is not consistent, and starts challenging even concepts we take as given requirements for preserving our freedoms, then he has taken a step too far.
That he is temperamental and petty about it, makes him seem volatile.
Unknown (w possibly extreme) Risk vs Relative Predictability
Chaos (with Corruption?) vs Corruption (w Familiarity)
White Identity vs Minority Identity / Class Divide and Conquer
Leftist (largely?) Populism vs Extended Leftward March
Big Government Solutions vs Big Government Solutions
Not a lot of room for conservatives to choose in there, let alone independents who might find clinton unacceptable.
“I have no clue how that racism charge stuck to Trump.” – Cornhead
Sorry. When you say something like this, you’ve lost any credibility about your justification.
Of course you have a clue. We all do.
Now, we can argue if it is accurate.
But, accurate or not, trump has decided to talk like he does and leave the ambiguity open for interpretation, precisely because he knows he will get MSM coverage from it.
He openly says he doesn’t care if the coverage is good or bad. Need only go to his statements w Hugh Hewitt re: Obama founded ISIS to know he knows that.
former democrat from new york…enough said
What I find interesting is that Trump blurts out whatever is on his mind. Straight up, in public, before huge crowds and cameras. Clinton is carefully scripted in everything she does — press pens, no real press conferences — yet it is Trump people find untrustworthy. Mainstream Americans may prefer a smooth talking socially acceptable liar and criminal who never tells the truth to someone who is a little vulgar, but will give them a straight answer. Of course, Trump often has to do some explaining and rewriting, something that comes with the territory. Clinton never does. She just keeps lying, but it sounds good, socially acceptable.
Getting tired of talking to ‘holier than thou” NeoCons who must have perfect candidates. Since when? Trump is flawed. We all are. But I’ve researched the positive history of Trump. His views on foreign relation & American greatness haven’t changed. The only difference between him & other candidates, & media don’t relate to the American ppl. You cannot relate. We are tired of politicians as leaders. It’s only a career move 2 politicians & media works for them. They lose site of America after they buy in. Neocons also want perpetual war. You want get that from Trump. So I recommend you do further reseach & learn what we see in Trump. But your blog gives zero evidence of why you should trust him. And don’t bring up his past less than conservative views. That went out the door w Reagan & w your desire to choose Hillary of his promises. You lose in the end unless you get it. Because whomever wins you anti-Trump ppl will be left in dust or blamed for your 3rd party support drives. Btw. I’m a a Post-Grad w MS in Psychology. 😉ðŸ™ðŸ¼ðŸ‡ºðŸ‡¸
I go farther than untrustworthy. Trump is a con man. Which means not only is he untrustworthy, he is actively working to mislead his audience to gain their confidence for his own ends. With Trump that appears to mean ego, celebrity, money, and power, roughly in that order.
I am saddened that many Americans have pinned their hopes on Trump’s good faith. I don’t believe he has any outside his immediate family. With Trump it’s all about Trump.
When Trump 2016 goes down the tubes with Trump Steak, Trump Vodka, various Trump Casinos and Trump University, Trump will just move on to the next deal and the next set of marks.
neo draws the distinction between Trump and Hillary like a diamond-cutter.
john smith,
In school I was a wiz at math and hard sciences but terrible at grammar. I can no more diagram a sentence than leap over tall buildings. I passed simply because my English courses were heavily weighted toward book reports on required literature. It pleases me greatly that you have volunteered to teach me how to use that “goddamn comma”…
@John Oh – you missed a key point from Neo.
It is not simply being bombastic, it is that nobody has a solid sense as to what he would really do while in office, he has said some things that are out there well beyond what we could agree with, and his undisciplined reaction to even the smallest of things just amplifies the risk.
GWB was not much better in the “smooth talking” dept (remember how the left made much fun of that), but we still had a much clearer idea of what he stood for and where he was headed.
Big Maq
I want to see proof of racism by Trump. The only thing that possibly comes to mind is his lawsuit with the Feds re renting to blacks decades ago. He’s just a fighter and Roy Cohen was his attorney.
If your point is that the Dems and MSM constantly asserting that Trump is a racist (falsely) then the Big Lie works.
Islam is not a religion. Mexicans are mostly derived from Spain. Spain is Europe. Not a minority.
Because when HRC as Pres legalizes 10-20 million illegals, & does her deals with the richest devils that the Legislative Branch won’t prosecute, we will have passed the point of no return.
John G (& GB too): If we hang by that thread and Trump is all that stands between us and the abyss, then I’d say we have already passed the point of no return.
The Last Chance argument is used frequently, e.g. climate change, and it’s nearly always wrong. It’s usually a manipulation to force an issue when the speaker can’t make the case on its own merits.
Look.
#NeverTrump == ImWithHillary
Write paragraphs if you must, but no matter how many you write, there you are.
“Melanie” out of the blue now adds her 2 cents, claiming Neo didn’t provide any evidence for her position. Right. Of course, no links whatsoever to showcase a point or two in support of “her” own claims.
Folks, suggest you don’t spend time responding, until “Melanie” brings a bit more to the table.
Huxley-“-The Last Chance argument is used frequently, e.g. climate change, and it’s nearly always wrong. It’s usually a manipulation to force an issue when the speaker can’t make the case on its own merits.”
You’re comparing the threats regarding immigration to climate change? I take it you do not live in southern California. Because every time I leave my house I see evidence of the unfettered, lawless immigration effects wrought by our government, promised to be worse by way of an HRC presidency. The dismantling of our culture and environment is palpable. With that statement you’ve helped me to understand your lackadaisical attitude about another 4-8 with Democrats in charge.
@Cornhead – No.
I am saying that trump courts that line way too comfortably and knows his ambiguity drives up coverage.
His statement about the judge on his case is a great example. He can claim he is not racist while looking so to many simultaneously. Certainly the ones who ARE racist would think highly of his statement. Certainly ones who could take offense would do so with his statement.
Then there are those who are prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt because he is “speaking the truth” without succumbing to the “politically correct”.
trump often claims he was just joking or being sarcastic, or being “misinterpreted” by the MSM.
Right. He’s baiting the MSM for news coverage and scoring points with his constituency, while giving himself some room to deny anything.
You’ve NEVER met him, you’ve NEVER done business with him and yet you’re so sure you know him. I find that disgusting.
His personality, his frankness, his off the cuff remarks that are funny but the media says they’re otherwise (“threw a baby out of the rally”, told a protester to go home to mommy, told Putin to ‘hack’ some more) are one of the things we love about him.
He’s also courageous and says PC is killing our country and it is.
I’ve even seen the media laugh at one of his funnies not knowing the camera was on them. Then when they noted the little light was on the smiles turned off and they complained about what he just said.
The media takes his words literally when it suits them, and metaphorically for anything they can think of if it doesn’t.
So do you and rest of the anti-trump brigade. And even worse instead of calling the media out, or even staying silent, you all join the pile on. CNN loves all you guys and you love them back.
I’ve noted the only happy voters are Trump supporters. The anti-trumpers are grumpy and butt-hurt and suicidal. <– a little indulgence there.
You absolutely refuse to accept what we've known all along. As a businessman he cottoned up to any and all powerful politicians because he needed those permits. He donated more to Democrats than Republicans. Well, duh, most of his building in the U.S. has been done in blue states. We forgive him—-but you refuse to.
If he were 1/10th of the things you claim he wouldn't have been so successful. He created over 500 businesses and only 11 failed, 4 of them in bankruptcy. That' a better record than even Elon Musk.
His plan for infrastructure is classic out-of-the-box thinking. Unlike Hillary's 'infrastructure bank' which lets the politicians, graft, and corruption in he plans on creating a fund that will be filled by corps (some of the money they bring back), other businesses, and billionaires, with only partial addition of tax money. All private sector. He knows what he's doing.
He's a goddamn builder. He built that. He's created jobs. He knows how. He also knows the political corruption. He's got ideas on tamping down on that too. No wonder the PTB are terrified but they won't be honest with us. But the rest of you anti-Trumpers have nothing to worry about. Your fretting is counterproductive.
As for small government, some agencies will go, regulations cut, and since he abhors waste and is a cheapskate he'll find all kind of savings. All without scaring the public about soc sec and medicare.
Tax reform and cuts in regulation alone will reduce the number of lobbyists.
Speaking of govt are you happy if Hillary wins and brings in 5000 of her cronies and Obama lefty types to fill the agencies?
Another thing we know is that he probably won't get all he wants but he'll certainly try (and if he wins you'll know he works hard at reaching his goals). As for trade just going country to country instead of the globalist regional trade proto-eu's will be enough. I REFUSE to lose our sovereignty step-by-step via the wholly political Globalist way.
Enough? Come out of your circle of grump and be happy and jump on the Trump Train.
Thank you.
John Oh-“Clinton is carefully scripted in everything she does – press pens, no real press conferences – yet it is Trump people find untrustworthy. Mainstream Americans may prefer a smooth talking socially acceptable liar and criminal who never tells the truth to someone who is a little vulgar, but will give them a straight answer.” What a great point. I have no patience for all the subterfuge that passes for communication. What tripe. Obama & Hillary sent out a lying squad following Benghazi and that is A-OK with the Democrats and apparently a number of other citizens. Shaking my head in disgust.
Well said, Neo. I could happily vote for the person who wrote Trump’s recent two speeches. However, I don’t know who that person is. I do know that it wasn’t Donald Trump.
Regardless and by every measure, Trump is superior to Hillary
” He’s baiting the MSM for news coverage and scoring points with his constituency, while giving himself some room to deny anything.”
That doesn’t sound like a crazy, unhinged guy to me. Yes, he baits, but sometimes he’s just inartful.
So? Hillary instead?
Sheesh. Hillary is ‘above the law’ but Trump says hurtful things.
Just the other day Vice President Joe Biden, in making the point at a rally that Trump is unsuitable, pointed out to the crowd the Secret Service agent who carries the nuclear “football”. He got a rousing applause.
We are not dealing with a question of “trust” or even “criminality”. We are dealing with what could be a majority of our fellow citizens who seem to have a mental Default Setting that allows them to view a man who made billions in construction as unacceptable. At the same time they find nothing out of the ordinary about an administration that railroaded the Iranian nuke deal, shipped a plane loaded with unmarked cash in a hostage deal, and who is now in the process of throwing away American control of the internet. And, right now, we may not have a single un-hacked computer in Washington.
Yes, with Hillary we know she’s crooked but we all know what we’re going to get. With Trump it’s a gamble – but at least we have an outside chance.
When did “Mexican” become a race?
I mean, even “Hispanic” is a made up word the U.S. census bureau came up with in the ’70s, before that they were white. Please stop playing the race card, it makes you look foolish, especially if you claim to be a conservative. Leave all that to the SJWs.
And please, show me where Trump was telling the military to obey illegal orders.
“WOW! JOE BIDEN Welcomed to Serbia With MASSIVE RALLY FOR TRUMP”
Meanwhile the TDS is strong here.
neo,
I’m amazed that you find mortal threats irrelevant 😉
My comment was limited to speculation as to why the media “feels so free” and a simple observation on how skewed are the priorities of so many.
I suspect that the justified lack of trust in Trump is mainly limited to republicans and conservatives. Democrats don’t count as they want their party to win. Independents tend to follow the MSM memes. Very few Americans are giving Trump’s positions, past behavior and words the close scrutiny that you have neo.
I agree that Trumps words are hardly trustworthy and that Hillary IS trustworthy in her intentions. Which just acts as support for my position, we don’t know what Trump will do but we surely know what she will do. Which leaves their ability to accomplish their goals. Hillary has a massive amount of support, whereas you’ve just established just how little support Trump can muster.
Finally, Zogby just released poll results showing a 2 pt lead for Hillary and the LA Times poll shows a 1 pt difference…
Neo
I’ll concede your point: Hillary is a reliable liberal. Then the issue for the undecided 20% is do they want a reliable liberal. And a reliable liberal who is a criminal and just out for herself.
On the issues of character and policy, Trump is way better than Hillary.
And one other thing: How has the last 7 years worked out for everyone? Hillary is Obama’s third term but with no golf.
Both djt and hrc are promoting “shovel ready” infrastructure projects… back to the future of the recovery summer. Both djt and hrc are lap dogs of the global elite seeking favors. Both djt and hrc have been involved with Putin’s Russian oligarchy. Both are NYC value democrats. Both seek money and power and care not how their goals are achieved. Both djt and hrc favor ‘gun control’ and restrictions on the 1st amendment.
But djt is not hrc so never mind.
Another assessment sans history or even an appreciation of present circumstance, it’s all about process and personality
“I mean, even “Hispanic” is a made up word the U.S. census bureau came up with in the ’70s, before that they were white. Please stop playing the race card, it makes you look foolish, especially if you claim to be a conservative. Leave all that to the SJWs.”
Um, Trump loves “Hispanics”. He said so. Guess he’s an SJW?
This is dumb.
I won’t submit,
You already kow towed. We all make choices. Live with it.
Seems Trumpbart.com must be overcrowded these days.
Maggie Gray,
You may feel that Trump speaks for you, but I don’t Since I live abroad, I am able to see world affairs from different angles. I don’t see that Trump understands or is willing to learn about foreign affairs. He didn’t know about Russia and Crimea. He thought Saddam was OK because he kept the terrorists under control. He admires the Chines for the same reason. These are opinions you can hold only if you get all your news from your friends at National Enquirer.
Trump owes us all a lot more. We don’t all hang out at Breitbart. He isn’t listening to us. He lives in an echo chamber. He is a bit like Obama in seeing the world through his own face in the mirror.
And he is too dumb to know that he won’t even get his SCOTUS appointments through if he keeps dissing solid Republican senators. Some of us won’t sell out for gold-plated bathroom fixtures.
I agree with most if not all of what you say. I think it’s water under the bridge now, though.
Either Trump or Hillary will be the next president, and that’s the one thing we know for sure. It’s a choice we have to make and I see only Trump as giving us any chance of saving the U.S. Constitution and the country from the ravages of 8 more years of Obamaism (on steroids).
And yet he has failed, and failed utterly, to act in a way to counter what the MSM was inevitably going to do.
Please tell me how well Romney did at this. McCain was too old in 2008 but he did not better in 2000 and Bush was hated.
I’m sad to see so many conservatives adopting the west suicide wish so easily.
“The Suicide of the West” is prophetic. If ANY other GOP candidate had adopted a couple of Trump’s positions on immigration and Muslim immigration, we would not be reading about Trump.
They didn’t.
“This is dumb.”
Well Bill, there is something to be said for dumbness. it soothes the soul and excuses many flaws of what passes for reasoning “sans history”.
Mike K,
BS. Others spoke out against open borders long before djt cherry picked that topic while using illegals to build his towers and clean the toilets. Others spoke out about the danger inherit in denying that jihad and sharia are the essence of islam. But, but, but… its not important because trump.
LBascom Says:
“And please, show me where Trump was telling the military to obey illegal orders.”
Your wish is my command:
Trump: The Military Would Not Refuse My Orders Even If They Consider Them Illegal
“At tonight’s Fox News debate, Bret Baier confronted Donald Trump over former NSA/CIA Director Michael Hayden‘s recent remarks that the military would flat-out refuse to follow illegal orders of his.
Specifically troubling for Hayden was Trump saying he would want to do ‘worse’ than torture and would want soldiers to kill terrorists’ families.
Baier told Trump the latter is explicitly illegal, but Trump insisted, ‘They won’t refuse. They’re not gonna refuse me. Believe me.'”
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/trump-the-military-would-not-refuse-my-orders-even-if-they-consider-them-illegal/
It was during one of the debates. Have you been living in a cave?
I won’t submit Says:
“WOW! JOE BIDEN Welcomed to Serbia With MASSIVE RALLY FOR TRUMP”
Hey…isn’t Serbia a traditional ally of Russia, and therefore PUTIN?!?
Why yes, I believe they are.
“…trustworthy in terms of her politics.”
You need to see Clinton Cash. Every liberal policy and position up for sale.
geokstr Says:
Seems Trumpbart.com must be overcrowded these days.
Neo got linked to Instapundit; another forum that has been 75% overrun by Trumpkins.
The ultimate and only semi-valid reason some Republicans will refuse to vote for Trump as the better of two very bad candidates, is because they fear he cannot be trusted with the football.
Anything else can be fixed.
These other floated objections having to do with him emerging from his cocoon as Francisco Franco, and then running wild while the Republican party and all the Dems and Independents sit by on their hands, is simply preposterous.
So the question is, is the psychotic, corrupt, and malevolent Hillary, more likely to prevent a nuclear catastrophe than the bombastic and egotistical Trump?
What I find interesting is how largely true the worst and most cynical conservative commentary on our current political culture is demonstrated to be, when it is simply assumed by many other ostensible conservatives, that we have in effect an irremediably imperial presidency; a presidency wherein the executive may do whatever he likes, while the legislative and judicial branches, not to mention his own party leaders, sit around impotent to intervene, obstruct and ultimately if necessary remove from office.
We know that if Hillary is elected to office the only thing that would remove her, no matter how evil she became, is the hand of God or one of Putin’s nukes. This is because we know, and we know because they have told us so, that a large part of the Democrat party is at ideological and social war with the very concept of constitutional restraints, limitations, and enumerated powers: i.e., the positive legal bases of your liberties.
Small comfort if she should trip down stairs and her belly burst crawling with worms – after your head has already been served up on a silver salver.
Once elected we know we will see more illegal acts on the part of a Democrat administered executive directed against the citizens, not fewer.
No one doubts that.
But, supposedly, Trump cannot be elected because once he is in, he becomes invincibly imperial too.
This is what we have become as a “people”?
Elect Trump, and then impeach the bastard if necessary.
But if you let Hillary in the door, you have only yourself to blame … and praying God to deliver you from your own fecklessness, is a very very wan hope.
It is one thing to be dragged to the cross. Quite another to climb up on one of your own making while murmuring platitudes, and expecting God to deliver you.
Better start saying your novenas now.
I’ve heard of that place.
I don’t think Trump is interested in doing what would possibly help him to win (such as cultivating, or faking, a presidential demeanor) because he doesn’t really care whether he wins or not. That’s why he won’t be changing his tune at this late date, regardless of a change in campaign leadership.
IMO this also goes to Trump’s lack of character…he’s perfectly happy to have torched the prospects of several potential GOP nominees who actually DID want to serve as president, and had the character to boot.
Trump is, and always has been, all about Trump, and he stands to benefit (in terms of ego, power, money etc.) whether he wins this election or not. He will find a way to spin this to his advantage (new media conglomerate perhaps?) and he’ll keep on tweeting, etc. It’s win-win for him, and lose-lose (literally) for the rest of us.
DNW,
There are lots of valid reasons not to vote for Trump. In addition to the one you mentioned, I include my stance that someone as narcissistic, dishonest, and vengeful as Trump can’t be trusted with his own military, state police and (aforementioned) nuclear arsenal. Another Big one is that I believe he will destroy the conservative (i.e., small and limited government, pro-life, fiscally responsible, pro-freedom, etc) movement. Destroy it. We conservatives will own, fair or not, the trainwreck.I have more…
It seems to be a mark of Trump supporters that they simply can’t understand (and constantly misrepresent) these kinds of reasons for not voting for Trump.
At what point in the campaign of 2016 will those who are butt-hurt begin to fight for success and victory. Your “ideal” candidate lost the nomination. An imperfect candidate won. When will the butt-hurt start to pull the wagon instead of kicking the rocks pouting?
GB,
It paased me by earlier, but going back I found you have a shortage of commas. Here are some you may have for free::
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
Those should last you a few days, let me know when you are running short.
I don’t give a rats ass about your virtue signaling. Trump or Hitlery will be the next President. Hillary will appoint 1-4 Justices on the Supreme Court. That alone will turn this country into a “socialist utopia”. Gun bans, single payer govt rationed “healthcare”, allah knows what else. I didn’t vote for Trump in the primary but by god I will vote for him in the election. And if you don’t then don’t EVER call yourself a Republican again. Too bad Jeb! didn’t win and give an “honorable” campaign before losing to Hitlery. But you either vote Trump or disaster.
Geez Bill, When you wrote that earlier, I assumed you were talking about Hillary.
Speaking of old movies, as I was elsewhere, and certain visual images, as no one in particular was …
“… his own military, state police and …” Drum and bugle corps not included.
Anyway Bill, we can declare war on Sweden later.
Regards
I always use too many and misplace half in my haste. He can have some of mine. Got semicolons to spare too, @ $.36 ea.
Fiftycaltx,
Its a 2 way street, a difficult concept for many. I do not give a damn about your pious ‘signaling’. You really believe POTUS the donald will remember the Hertitage Foundation list of SCOTUS potential appointees? Really? Give you 100 to 1 he would appoint his sister (google it) and similar progressives. But it is a moot point; . it ain’t going to happen. Tomorrow the eath will rotate on the journey around the sun. It will appear as if the sun rotates around the earth from east to west; but it ain’t so.
I’ve been called a racist a lot of times. I’ve been called one for opposing health care reform, for opposing forced union membership, for being pro-life, and a lot of other things that have nothing to do with race. I’ve shaken off the accusations. I’ve defended other people who’ve been likewise accused of racism. I’m not going to the wall for someone whose defense against charges of racism is “I only made fun of Hispanics and Muslims”. To paraphrase Ace of Spades, one measure of a political candidate is how disgusting the excuses are that you have to make in order to keep supporting him.
DNW,
Everything is free when it comes to puncuation…
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Relish in semi-colons to your heart’s content; I have an endless supply at my finger tips.
Nick,
Yes. But, but,but trump doesn’t have corrupt ovaries.
Pingback:NEO-NEOCON: TRUMP’S DICHOTOMY—A BRIDGE TOO FAR? I am assuming many many other people see somethin… – Feed Creek
History experts.
Who were the 3 most uncontrollable or erratic leaders elected in a democratic process?
Opinion please.
(answer not limited to USA)
Well, DNW, you and I are probably never going to agree but I have to hand it to you for the movie clip. That took some doing and was funny 🙂
John Hinderaker of Power Line and I are of the exact same mind on this election. Trump could be a very good President while we know Hillary will be a disaster.
Re: Trump:
He is a very bad man. He doesn’t pay his debts; he steals when possible and cheats when possible and weasels out of responsibility when possible and lies even when it isn’t remotely possible to fool anyone. I wouldn’t trust him as the overnight caretaker of a pet hamster.
And I give him about a 10% chance of doing anything meaningful to alleviate the illegal immigration problem, which is about twice as large as the chance I give him of doing anything else salutary or even tolerable on any other policy topic.
And yet all of that, considered and weighed, makes him better than Hillary Clinton.
For of course in her case, while I would trust her to take care of a hamster, I suspect she’d have a far worse effect than Trump if entrusted with anything of greater significance. A dog, she’d neglect or beat; a child, she’d warp with leftism; a church, she’d co-opt as a for-profit personal empire; and a country? Fugheddaboudit.
And in her case, the odds of doing anything non-harmful on any policy position whatsoever are zero. Trump’s 5% chance of nominating a single right-of-center SCOTUS Justice is superior to Hillary’s 0%.
So, even though I think the country ought to be deeply, deeply ashamed that our only two likely options are a wicked bitch and a wicked sonofabitch — I mean, so ashamed that if the whole population took up wearing hairshirts and flogging themselves for years at a time as a penance for our collective evils, it would be a sign of returning sanity rather than the converse — even though our current predicament is deeply shameful, still, in spite of his horrifying flaws, Trump has my vote.
Re: Us:
I think the real emotional crusher here is that we Americans need to get over our now utterly unwarranted national pride.
There was something to stick your chest out about, if you were an American, back shortly after WWII. And after the first moon landing. And probably in the 1980’s. And maybe, very arguably, in the initial response to 9/11.
But for the last 8 years, and evidently for the next 4-to-8, I think we have to face the facts that we’re getting the government we deserve. If we were (collectively and on average) better persons, we could claim that we actually deserved better.
If we, as a people, weren’t normally ignorant, feckless, and prone to wildly overestimate our wisdom and moral goodness and usefulness to others, we could claim that we didn’t deserve the ignorance, fecklessness, and wild-self-overestimation of Obama. But we are, so we can’t make that claim.
If we, as a people, weren’t so often grasping and dissipated and self-indulgent and dishonest and negligent and entitled and corrupt and self-satisfied and haughty and alternatively disingenuous or self-aggrandizing, we could claim we didn’t deserve our current selection of presidential candidates. But while no nation is of a single type, Hillald Trumpton is a recognizable amalgamation of some of the more prominent character traits of recent-vintage Americans.
I saw a joke somewhere recently: Man and wife watching television, which is showing a news report on Clinton and Trump. One spouse says to the other, “How the h*** did we get here?” The other changes the channel: Click. The next channel shows a rerun of Jerry Springer. A beat of silence follows, and then…. “Oh. Right.”
Re: Trump, again:
And I think our residual national pride (no longer remotely justifiable) is the chief reason why #NeverTrump-ers just can’t bring themselves to vote for the guy as an anti-Hillary firewall.
They know he’s awful. But so do we; so that non-difference can’t explain why we’re voting for him but they’re not.
I think the difference is this: They still see the United States as having a sheen of holiness or at least lovability around it. They remember the honorable thing; and they think that the entity called “The United States” today is still that same thing.
But it isn’t. The United States that was worthy of honor is dead and gone. It died when the percentage of the population retaining its best values dropped to single-digits (and the percentage of influential and wealthy persons retaining those values dropped under 1%).
The good, honorable, noble thing called “U.S.A.” is as dead as last year’s cut flowers, but the memory is still bright in the eyes of #NeverTrump-ers.
Consequently they don’t want to sully it with the leadership of a scumbag who, given the opportunity, would willingly replace the Washington Monument with a same-height, gold-leaf-covered, accurate-to-scale sculpture of his penis. (Don’t even try to tell me he wouldn’t. You know he would.)
That, I think, is why they are #NeverTrump.
But, hey, McFly!
We don’t have that good thing any longer. A noble bride is no longer waiting for us at the altar. What stands before us, with an Elvis Impersonator waiting to officiate, is a disease-ridden whore that’s regularly buggered by a Russian kleptocrat. Lady Liberty’s torch is now a selfie-stick; her new tablet is electronic and used for watching porn. (She tossed out the old tablet because she had no idea what its inscription meant.) Her robes are ditched in favor a tank-top and short-shorts; and the shorts read “Juicy” across the backside.
Now, we’ve got to put up with the company of this whore for the foreseeable future, and we have no reason to believe she’s capable of reforming her character.
Given this, who’s the candidate that’s most likely to improve her character, or, least likely to worsen it?
That’d be Trump.
“Here endeth the lesson.”
Cornhead,
“Trump could be a very good President… ”
Respectfully, drop the meth pipe and spend a few months in Ogallala or points west, Scottsbluff is a great stopping point before the wide open places of the high plains of Eastern Wyoming.
Trump doesn’t have corrupt ovaries that we know about.
The focus upon Trump’s bombast and clumsiness is an excuse for many not to face the essential truth of his concerns.
Any one of his major issues; the illegal immigration of millions who are culturally hostile to America’s founding culture, Muslim migration that is projected to double their numbers in less than a decade and an obscene trade imbalance hanging over our heads… are mortal threats to our republic and will destroy us, if left to half way measures.
R.C., 🙂
parker.
ROFL,
you woundeth me sir, where no doctor can reach 😉
“I believe he will destroy the conservative (i.e., small and limited government, pro-life, fiscally responsible, pro-freedom, etc) movement. Destroy it.” Bill
That’s certainly a possibility, arguably even a probability. Though we can’t know that to be a certainty. What some of us believe to be a certainty is that if Hillary gets in, it’s all over. Not immediately of course but there will be no stopping that boulder’s path down the mountain. So it comes down to how much ruin you believe the republic has left in her and if we are close to a tipping point. I look at the state of the country, the forces aligned against her and an electorate that voted for Obama twice and now presents us with this choice and see no reason for optimism.
Parker,
I knew I liked you – Ogallala! Scotsbluff! My family hails from near there. Ever been to Sidney or Potter?
Parker
Classmates in both towns.
Neo:
“And for someone like Obama, many Americans who were initial supporters came to realize that many of his healing words were sheer hypocrisy.”
Trump’s Monday speech (https://www.donaldjtrump.com/press-releases/donald-j.-trump-addresses-radical-islam-and-the-age-of-terror) was like an Obama speech – talking points strung together that when scrutinized closer together, look suspect and discordant.
Most significantly, Trump shares the Russian Left/alt-Right false narrative of OIF with Obama, which has been the cornerstone premise shaping Obama’s foreign affairs. With the partisan rhetorical veneer set aside, it appears Trump would pick up from Obama.
Paul:
Apparently you didn’t read my post.
Parker:
The time in the north woods upped your form. Is it the water?
DNW:
By the way, this post is not mostly about why some Republicans won’t be voting for Trump, it’s more about why he probably won’t be able to get enough moderates (Independents, etc.) to vote for him to lead him to victory.
And Trump will almost certainly not be impeached and convicted, if elected. I’ve written about this several times, for example here.
I’ve noticed over the years so many conservatives pride themselves on thinking ‘logically’. Believing themselves to use “reason” to make their judgements and critiques.
Well, it ain’t so. There’s plenty of rhetorical twisting, assumptions, circle-jerk echoing, lack of insight and plain old emotional stubborness.
I get it that many feel the pain of lost opportunity–so many terrific candidates knocked out of the race–but a generic small government type has nothing else to offer the rest of the Country and can’t explain in people terms why it would be good for everyone to elect such a candidate.
It’s simple really. Head banging between the two parties has frozen the system. And where there is agreement between the two, those issues are mostly rejected by the rest of us.
Wrong track. Need a change. Now is the time for risk-taking. I’m in.
Maggie Gray:
You appear to be a mite reading-comprehension-challenged.
Just to help you out, in this post I am describing a phenomenon I see generally in voters, particularly moderate, middle-of-the-road voters, and how they make their decisions and on what basis. I’m most definitely NOT saying I “know” Trump; I’m talking mostly about the impression he gives people, and his public persona as a candidate (speeches, Tweets, off-the-cuff-remarks).
You also write:
Well, Maggie, you sure don’t sound the least bit happy to me. Nor do the other Trump-supporters. In fact, “grumpy and butt-hurt” might be a pretty good description.
And your final comment—“Come out of your circle of grump and be happy and jump on the Trump Train”—reminds me so much of this:
Let me start by saying that I’m almost certainly voting for Trumplestiltskin this November.
That said, of the Republican candidates in the primaries, Trump had the least likelihood of being elected President. The establishment only hated Cruz more. Walker, Rubio, Christie, all had better chances of being elected. All of you who voted for Trump in the primaries voted for Hillary.
If we cared about winning, Rubio would be the nominee. I didn’t vote for him. I don’t trust him on immigration. But he had the best chance of winning and he’s about a gazillion times better than Hillary. So if you voted for Trump, you don’t really care about winning. You didn’t vote to win. You voted for someone to express your outrage.
You knew, by the way, that a significant percentage of Republicans would never vote for him. You KNEW that. They told you over and over and over. And yet you told those folks to go … and voted for him anyway.
So now Hillary will probably be the next president. I hope not. I’m voting against her. But she probably will be.
And if you voted for Trump in the primaries, it’ll be your fault, not that of those who can’t bring themselves to vote for him in the general. They warned you and you didn’t listen. If they tell you to go commit unmentionable acts with yourself now, just take it and move on. Otherwise, not only did you vote for Hillary, but you’re a whiny loser.
In the end, though, I have to say: Vote for Trump.
(At least he might not be the worst president the US has ever had. Really. Personally, I think he did this on a bet. I think he’ll throw the election to Hillary and take his $1 with a smile and live happily ever after. He’s been happy to buy favors from her in the past, as he said. But, Vote for Trump. There’s a chance I’m wrong about that bet.)
Jed Skillman:
I addressed that issue here.
Thomas Doubting:
Well put.
And I agree that Rubio was one of the strongest candidates for the general.
For the most part, the argument is not about why we have to vote for Trump because he’s not Hillary (most of us here probably will vote for Trump) but rather is an argument of why such a horrible, hapless candidate was foisted on us and now we’re being taken to task for not voting for him happily.
I WILL NOT VOTE FOR TRUMP HAPPILY. I may vote for him because I have to, but I will not be happy when I do it, and I will be even less happy when I cast this losing vote because idiots and paid Internet trolls derailed a year in which the GOP should have won so that we can lose with Trump. Why is this in any way difficult to understand?
I don’t know if the trolls are paid by Trump himself, or simply by the many shadowy forces who want Democrats to win, but I have seen their tactics and manner of writing elsewhere, and they are not typical of intelligent people like the conservative regulars on this forum. It was an army of people who helped tip the scale to usher in a hopeless candidate who had no chance to win, at the expense of many who did.
Trumps failings are many and obvious. Any 10-year-old could fill a season-long ad campaign with anti-Trump ads with stuff that can be found on the Internet by anyone. For a while, the media played him up, in part because he was good for ratings and in part because he was the least likely to beat their Democrat candidate, but now the jig is up and the MSM has turned on the court jester. We all told you this would happen, and you treated us the way Democrats treated us when we said that Obamacare was a bad idea that would inevitably fail. Bet you’re going to blame us for Trump’s defeat, too, even though none of here will be responsible for that. Trump is responsible for his future annihilating loss, and it’s because his boorish behavior and the fact that he has no idea what he’s talking about, is sending disaffected Democrats and fence-sitters (who would love to vote for someone other than Hillary) running and screaming. We find that Trump’s horribleness is an ounce better than Hillary’s horribleness, but they see it the other way around. Berating us will not change that. Trump did not, can not and will not make a positive impression on the voters who mattered.
And remember, at no point did the majority of right-of-center voters want Trump. Just because a contingent of determined lemmings and suspicious party-crossers got him to the nomination, doesn’t mean that we suddenly want any part of him. He is no less horrible than he was many months ago when we decided on other, much better candidates.
Remember those other candidates? Barely? That’s because Trump got all of the airplay. He is not the only one who took positions on immigration – no one else could get a word in edgewise with the all-Trump-all-the-time MSM coverage, diced with Trump’s cute little attacks, lies and smears against every other Republican politician. To this day he hasn’t fired a fraction of the vicious bile toward Hillary, the actual person he is running against, than he does toward past and present Republicans. And you think he believes in anything right of center?
And frankly, since “he’s not Hillary” is the only argument most of you can come up with for why to vote for him, why didn’t you use an ounce of what used to be called common sense to pick a candidate who is not Hillary who might actually be able to win an election against her? Every single person who threw a hat into the ring was not Hillary, and all of them had a better chance of beating her, particularly if Trump and his nonstop smear campaign never happened.
No, I’m not happy and I’m not forgiving. What happens if we get HRC is the fault of Trump himself and his little army of Trumpists. We should have had this one in the bag.
Because every time I leave my house I see evidence of the unfettered, lawless immigration
It’s hardly “unfettered”. They don’t just wander across, as you well know. I fancy working for a while in the US, but I won’t get a Green card, so can’t.
Your complaint could have been laid by an American in the 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th centuries. Currently it’s Hispanics and Moslems. Before them it was, among others, Catholics, Irish, Italians, Jews, Poles and Vietnamese. Not to mention the shit-fight you guys had about giving blacks the vote.
Somehow I think the US will survive just fine.
Immigration is far from your biggest worry. You have a addiction to defense spending, fueled by the stupid wars you keep starting, at a time when your budget is out of control. You have a broken political system due to the gerrymandered electorates which promote extremists. You have a culture war that continues to deepen.
For the record, I come from a country with a large immigrant population, and am the child of immigrants.
Immigration is the scapegoat of the US to distract from the internal woes you have, almost none of which are caused by immigration.
The recent history of this sort of scapegoating is not great.
“These other floated objections having to do with him emerging from his cocoon as Francisco Franco, and then running wild while the Republican party and all the Dems and Independents sit by on their hands, is simply preposterous.” – DNW
What is interesting about this specific comment is how many of the trump supporters cry out how the “GOPe” sat by, and did “nothing” to stop obama.
Yet, somehow, we are to expect that there will be new found backbone in how these same people all behave, like they didn’t fall like dominoes in this nomination.
The issue is neither you nor I know what trump will really do, yet, he seems prepared to “joke” / be “sarcastic” about his extreme positions.
Will he be “Franco”, who the h*ll knows? – THAT is the issue.
He certainly is not Washington, Lincoln, nor Reagan.
That you feel the need to state and “assume” Congress (the MSM, people of good conscience and principle, etc) will manifestly box him in, is, itself, by implication, an admittance of the possibility of trump’s extreme.
neo-neocon
I’m happy to support Trump, no question. I also think your ‘research’ is limited and you’ve spoken to too many anti-Trumpers. In fact your piece sounds more like a #nevertrump manifesto.
I’m quite aware of the ‘impression’ Trump has on many Republicans because they shout it out to everyone on Twitter, CNN, MSNBC, etc. I also believe quite a few of them are not being honest about the real reason(s) they don’t support him.
Ever been to a rally? Have you even noticed him growing into an actual political candidate? Ever give him credit for his business success, his transactional nature, his hatred of waste, his big heart and beautiful family?
Thought not.
Kyndyll G,
Rather than your analysis, it’s your conclusion with which I can’t agree. It’s my unconfirmed understanding that Trump received more primary votes than ever before. If so, he didn’t get that kind of response due to trolls or media attention because someone cannot sell you something you’re not willing to buy.
IMO, Trump got the great majority of those votes because he said; deport the illegals, bann Muslim migrants and end the system that sends American jobs overseas. End of story. No nuance needed. No qualifications needed. No politically correct bullshit. No careful ‘framing’ of the issues.
The average person responds to simple, declaritive statements. If it fits their general POV, it’s good. If it doesn’t fit them, then it and the person making it are rejected.
Most people are not thinkers. They don’t ponder issues. Those that do think and ponder are the ones who respond to questions as to the how’s and whys of the issues.
Most people place the character and even trustworthiness of politicians far below the simple metric of… are they going to get the job we need doing, done? Which BTW is why democrats accept Hillary’s criminality, they correctly believe that she’ll get the job done to their satisfaction.
So sorry, the Trumper didn’t do this to us, together… we did it to ourselves.
“We should have had this one in the bag.” – Kyndyll
And THAT is the sad irony and tragedy of 2016.
It is like trump supporters were all expecting a home run hitter, but ended up with a bunter (and a lousy one at that) with nobody on base – nothing to bunt for.
Maggie Fray,
Go away. If we want to read your crap, we will go directly to Breitbart or Gateway Pundit. We are looking for thoughtful and informed discussions.
BTW, it takes a real big heart to throw an old woman out of her home so you can build a limo parking lot for your bankrupt casinos.
I believe the character issue with Trump which bothers people like Neo so much is his blatant vindictiveness. It seems that Trump is incapable of tolerating the slightest snub without blasting back with something even worse. It does not appear that he is really in control of his need to retaliate. In a World in which people are armed with nuclear bombs that type of vindictiveness is dangerous since it can easily escalate into war. That’s what scares people.
expat
That’s a lie. Nobody threw her out of her house. She made enormous demands. Trump walked away. She lived out her life in that house. When she died her grown children wanted to make a deal to sell it. Trump was no longer involved in the project and they sold the house for about 1/3 of what Trump had earlier offered.
See, don’t be so snooty because you have huge gaps in your knowledge (we all do). Informed discussion? LOL
Actually, no. This one is just past basic economics. If the Chinese want to trade their goods for paper, that’s up to them. At some point they’ll realize they weren’t smart to do that, and take pennies on the dollar.
And yes, this IS why we want to make certain we have far and away the best damned military in the world. Wars DO start over people realizing that…
I’m not going to day it’s “trivial” but it’s hardly the problem which it is often sold as by the economically illiterate politicians to the far more economically illiterate hoi-polloi.
}}} end the system that sends American jobs overseas
They’ve been selling this shit for almost two decades now.
It’s crap, and it’s based on — again — near-complete economic illiteracy. The nature of the problem isn’t even HARD to understand, but peeps are told they “understand” it when they’re dealing with economics, one of THE most counter-intuitive activities known to man.
The Nation That Lost Its Jobs, But Got Them Back
}}} Ever give him credit for his business success, his transactional nature, his hatred of waste, his big heart and beautiful family?
Maggie, I give him credit for being an accomplished scam artist and consummate con man, not the least of which is convincing so many angry people that he’s NOT a politician.
He’s been playing political games to his advantage with governments for decades. And consistently enough, won. Which means he understands the political system AS WELL AS OR BETTER than most politicians. Not “less”. He will be a Crony Capitalist, just like Obama. The only good thing is, with that “R” after his name, he’ll get called on shit, unlike Obama (or Hillary, if she was PotUS)
This is close enough to the way Trump has won — by knowing exactly what pisses people off and playing them like they were a cheap kazoo…
I’m Angry, So I’m Voting for Trump
Regarding Trump’s character:
Two days ago Ben Shapiro played the section Trump’s foreign policy speech that addressed the Iraq war (31:30 in the podcast). Trump basically said “Bush lied people died all for nothing, but I (Trump) wouldn’t have done it…”
I know and worked with the father of a Marine, killed in Iraq. His son was a crew chief on a helicopter shot down by Iraqi “insurgents” who figured out flight patterns and set up AA kill boxes. The pilot got too predictable, all those on board died. I remember the grief and pain Dick P., the father, showed in the work setting. So when Trump played “Monday morning quarterback”to attack GW Bush, and not to even mention HRC I found it especially loathsome.
Trump’s record on the Iraq was is a proven case of inconsistency and convenient amnesia. Why he chooses to reopen those wounds and take up the Michael Moore and Cindy Sheehan arguments is also despicable.
Trump IMO will betray anyone, except maybe his children. He has betrayed wives, so even the family loyalty trait is pretty shallow.
The link to the podcast is https://soundcloud.com/benshapiroshow/ep166
MaggieGray:
Welcome aboard newbie, keep the snoot high and the love for all things Trump first and foremost. Many of us need your wisdom. /s
Yes, Trump loves eminent domain but that greedy woman was able to keep her own home. Trump couldn’t roll her like he has many others. His parking lot would have been even more awesome! The tragedy, such a waste, such a waste, maybe Trump should sue her, eh. /S
You just don’t trust Trump?? Seriously? So what, Hillary is sooo much better because that is basically what you’re saying. There is no other alternative, it’s Trump or Clinton….full stop. Pick one or the other, the 3rd party candidates are a joke. In November either Donald J. Trump or Hillary R. Clinton will be elected POTUS.
I understand where you’re coming from and it is true that Trump has changed some of his positions over the years, but you know what position he’s never, ever changed?? Trade and economic concerns, he’s been voicing those for 30 years now and he’s stayed pretty true to where he was all those years ago. Another thing he’s never wavered about is his love of this country and its citizens.
Some of the issues that he has supposedly waffled about, I don’t see that way. The Muslim thing was never going to work, he had to flesh out an actual policy that might be effective. There are similar examples, where the basis of his idea hasn’t really changed it’s just been honed into more of a realistic policy.
I think probably the biggest area where he has indeed changed his earlier view points is on abortion. He says he changed his mind when someone close to him had a premature baby. I can relate to that my grandchild was born very premature, I can see how such an experience would change his view, when you see that tiny little life. By the by if you dig there is evidence that in fact his nephew’s wife did have a premature baby, not sure if that is the child he is referring to but the timing is about the same. I’ve heard him say a friend and I’ve heard him say someone close to him???
Hillary on the other hand has gone 180 on several issues, TPP is the gold standard……TPP stinks, etc., etc.
Trump certainly isn’t perfect, but this country simply can’t withstand 4 more years of what we’re currently experiencing or possibly 4 years of far worse.
This is a side issue, but has anyone noticed that Trump’s default facial expression (when he’s not talking) is this grim-mouthed, chin-forward, dead-eyed El Jeffe look?
It’s a look best suited for a reviewing stand as the missiles and goose-steppers parade past.
OM-I can’t imagine what it like for family members who have lost loved ones in the war in the Middle East. I was an early supporter of that war and constant defender of Bush. When I saw American Sniper I felt sick with the thought of so much blood and treasure ultimately wasted by this Administration. And there is no question that you are right that if it is brought up it is the perfect opportunity to shine the light brightly on HRC especially in her role as SOS. No excuses for Trump.
“You just don’t trust Trump?? Seriously?”
Well, he is a pathological liar, about big and small things. You haven’t noticed?
Weird lies, too. One of my favorites is his “no one reads the Bible as much as me” lie. Would be funny if I didn’t want to cry about how many “evangelicals” have allowed themselves to be marks for his con.
“So what, Hillary is sooo much better because that is basically what you’re saying.”
That’s not what anyone here is saying. We have two sandwiches before us. One is a turd sandwich, the other is a cr@p sandwich. I don’t want to taste either one.
Stupid party shouldn’t have nominated this candidate. As has been said above, and many other places, the irony is #neverTrump people TOLD you he would not pivot to presidential, he would turn off vast swaths of the electorate, he would attack Republicans more than he attacks HRC (that one has actually been a surprise to me), he would flip on many of his positions, he would not study up (the debates are going to be interesting), etc.
We told you. And now you’re all blaming us for what’s going to happen in November.
Of course, the lout might actually win. I make no predictions. But I’m not voting for him. Or her. We keep rewarding these parties with our votes for their lousy products, we’ll keep descending. Kanye/Kardashian 2020 anyone?
To expand on a point above, one of the main criticisms Trump supporters used to hurl at people like me, along with “quick clutching your pearls”, “get over yourself”, “if she gets elected we’ll all DIE”, “you’re not a real conservative”, etc. is this one:
“If you spent half the energy opposing Obama/HRC as you do criticizing Trump, we wouldn’t be in this position”
I think it’s time to turn that criticism on your El Jeffe his big, dumb self. Your candidate spent the day after he won the nomination going after Cruz’s dad, and has spent a lot of time criticizing GOP officeholders that he will need to get his wonderful, terrific, great, amazing, gold-plated agenda enacted.
Why is he going so easy on Hillary? Does he not want to win?
while watching what the left hand is doing
dont forget the right hand
Threat of all-out war in Ukraine as Putin places 40,000 troops on border…
The party shouldn’t have nominated him??? HELLO, the voters in the primaries elected him, he won the nomination fair and square.
Trump is a compulsive liar?? He can’t hold a candle to Hillary and every single one of you know that.
One thing that I think we can all agree on about Trump, one single thing……is that at his core, he loves this country. At his core he’s patriotic, at his core he truly wants what is best for this country. Do any of you believe the same of Hillary???
No, we’re not all going to DIE if Hillary wins, but we’ll have a much steeper hill to climb, especially with 3 or more SCOTUS seats going far left.
As for the accusations of not being a real conservative, meh that’s a stupid statement and unfair. There is no purity test, if there were we’d all probably fail on one issue or another. As for spending more time opposing HRC, well we should all be spending more time doing that. As for not criticizing Trump, well now we’re not the dems, Trump isn’t a republican messiah or light bringer, no man is perfect and there is certainly plenty of room for criticism.
We are all on the same team though, maybe we’re not that thrilled with management’s quarterback decision……but just like the super bowl there is no trophy for second place. Unlike the super bowl the consequences of coming in second will have a much greater impact on our lives.
Hey guys, only one of us is allowed to ban Maggie Gray. Otherwise, let’s do our part to not let this comments section turn into every other nasty message board on the internet.
Nick – amen.
Somebody:
“The party shouldn’t have nominated him??? HELLO, the voters in the primaries elected him, he won the nomination fair and square.”
Agreed. He did win fair and square, and a plurality of voters elected him. But more people voted for someone else, but the vote was split. All I’m saying is I wish the party (meaning the voters) hadn’t nominated him.
“Trump is a compulsive liar?? He can’t hold a candle to Hillary and every single one of you know that.”
No, we don’t. I think they both lie a lot. I’m not going to defend HRC, but I’ve just learned in life to not trust untrustworthy people. He’s untrustworthy. I’m still not sure he even wants to be President (I mean, he probably does, but he’s got win-wins planned even if he loses). This all seems like a con to me. I don’t hire liars and con men, why would I want one for President?
“One thing that I think we can all agree on about Trump, one single thing……is that at his core, he loves this country. At his core he’s patriotic, at his core he truly wants what is best for this country. Do any of you believe the same of Hillary???”
We can’t all agree on that. The one observation that I believe 100% about Trump is that Trump loves Trump. Trump wants what’s best for Trump.
If trends continue, he’s paving the way for an HRC landslide. That doesn’t seem to be what’s best for this country to me. Does he really want to win?
No he’s doubling down on the stuff that has most people concerned, by completely going Breitbart in this campaign. It worked (somehow) in the primaries. I don’t think it will work in the general (although HRC is so terrible that it might). He’s not running a smart campaign. Sometimes I think he’s just trolling us all. I think that’s incredibly reckless.
> …we’ll have a much steeper hill to climb, especially with 3 or more SCOTUS seats going far left.
Well, then don’t give it to the Far Left. The President (more than likely Hillary, but to soon to tell) makes nominations for the “Congress” to consider, and the President does not have a veto on this matter. This is where the Right might have it’s victorious moment … if the Right can congeal around good ole’ fashion, no not that good ole’ fashion, but good ole’ fashion RATIONAL Conservatism.
There is no other alternative, it’s Trump or Clinton….full stop.
That’s what the arrogant Brits told the Colonists during the Founding Father era, a binary choice of Obey or be Punished.
Unfortunately for the arrogant sods, war as a third option was never something they would have considered, but the Founding Fathers did.
Would be funny if I didn’t want to cry about how many “evangelicals” have allowed themselves to be marks for his con.
Hussein’s pastor and R Jackson/Sharpton claim they serve the Christian God.
In reality, light is dark. So it is likely these “evangelicals” are not serving Jesus Christ. They are evangelizing for some other… party.
Jeeeeezuz
Trump certainly isn’t perfect, but this country simply can’t withstand 4 more years of what we’re currently experiencing or possibly 4 years of far worse.
No wonder the Left thinks they can win a civil war against weaklings like this.
The Leftist alliance is pushing past 15% of strategic assets mobilized, yet the Alternative Right and Trumbart supporters, have only barely begun to react to the Leftist alliance.
Withstand 4 more years of the Leftist alliance? Civil War 2 in America is within the next 15 years, at the most. ANd people think they can’t even withstand 4 more years of Leftist domination… maybe they should have thought about that when they supported Demoncrats against America so many years ago.
I didn’t expect Dagon to run out of comprehensible words so soon though. Cthulhu has got to be better at internet slang than that.
”Her character is 100 times worse than Trump’s. “ by Cornhead
No, it’s exactly as bad as hers. They are the same kind of corruption, it’s only that Trump! hasn’t yet had the access to political power that Clinton has. I am disinclined to give it to him, preferring the corrupt President elected in 2016 to have a D after their name.
“#NeverTrump == ImWithHillary” by Paul A’Barge
Not merely not true, but an obvious and stupid lie.
“You’ve NEVER met him, you’ve NEVER done business with him and yet you’re so sure you know him. I find that disgusting.” By Melanie.
I do know him by his record, his statements about how we need British defamation law, lies about his success and net worth, strategic bankruptcies, bill non-payment, approval of buying political favors, use of eminent domain…and this is just a part of his record as a developer and businessman. He should never be allowed near the levers of power. He is scum exactly as much as Hillary is.
“Now is the time for risk-taking. I’m in.”
”Have you even noticed him growing into an actual political candidate? “
“Nobody threw her out of her house.” by Maggie Gray
Exactly so. It’s why I am going to write in Cruz. And unlike the idiot who this this is about suicidalism or being butt-hurt, I’m going to smile doing it–and be a happy warrior for what can actually improve the country, with which Donald Trump! has nothing to do. No, I have not noticed him growing into a candidate who can or should win.
And he was the sort who tried to have her thrown out of her house y bought politiccians, and there were times he succeeded. He’s thieving scum.
“Remember those other candidates? Barely? That’s because Trump got all of the airplay.” By Kyndyll G
Exactly. The MSM always pumps the GOP candidate they want to have to beat in Novmeber. Trump!alos are silly enough to think that doesn’t apply to Trump! They eagerly stuck our heads into the media’s noose.
And Kundyll, we didn’t all do this to ourselves. The Trump!alos did it to us.
IGotBupkis,
The trade imbalance will not have a happy ending. The Chinese are not going to settle for worthless paper, they’ll want the assets that ‘guarantee’ that paper. Plus, that worthless paper points to an unsustainable level of national debt. Sooner or later a house of cards collapses and when, in the real world it happens, real people get hurt.
A ‘service’ economy is ultimately, a poverty economy. I read your link and the ‘professor’ was right because when Jerry the sculptor dies, income stops. Venezuela is a perfect real world example of what ultimately happens when an economy abandons diversification and places it’s income generation into one ‘basket’. The Saudis are another, as oil fracking as exposed.
Ymarsakar,
It is not yet time for war, “to everything there is a season”.
First, there is a choice to be made, Trump or Clinton.
If Clinton, there is the possible alternative of an Article V convention.
If that fails, then the choice becomes civil war or… a gradual slide followed by a ‘sudden’ precipitous fall into 1984.
GB – The US is the second largest producer of agriculture in the world, the second largest producer of manufactured goods, and the largest producer of services. Not bad diversification. And we’re doing it with 1/4 the population of China. Also a “service economy” means health care, education, finance, research, arts, software…these aren’t bad industries to be in.
You’re comparing the threats regarding immigration to climate change? I take it you do not live in southern California. Because every time I leave my house I see evidence of the unfettered, lawless immigration effects wrought by our government, promised to be worse by way of an HRC presidency. The dismantling of our culture and environment is palpable. With that statement you’ve helped me to understand your lackadaisical attitude about another 4-8 with Democrats in charge.
Sharon W.: Interacting with Trump apologists (I notice many of them become indignant if I call them Trump supporters — they insist on a properly nuanced appreciation of their positions while they use a broad nasty brush to tar their opposition) reminds me of my discussions with liberals. If the disussion doesn’t go their way, it becomes personal quickly.
My best friend lives in SoCal, I visit him every couple years, and talk to him regularly. He has kept me apprised of the problems with immigration since the 1980s. Which may or may not cut any ice with you. I also read current events extensively.
In another topic I referred to a Hillary victory, using Richard Fernandez’s memorable phrase, as “a near-death experience” for Americans. So I do take a Hillary victory seriously, it’s just that I’ve been living with her victory since April, when I realized that Trump had the moinination locked up and that barring a major change event, he would almost certainly lose in November to Hillary. I’ve become somewhat philosophical about it.
It’s fine with me if you and GB etc. want to get all charged up with what I regard as an impossible task — dragging Trump across the finish line. I’m more interested in what happens after Trump loses. My judgment is going all-in for vile, lying, ignorant character like Trump only makes it harder to mount opposition to the left after 2016.
And if it’s hopeless to do so after Trump loses, it’s pretty much hopeless now unless one wants to go Baghdad Bob for Trump.
Call me Pollyanna if you wish, but I do believe the USA still has a few dances left in her before she is buried.
Huxley–In the event of the likely HRC win–I hope you are right and I am wrong. Sincerely.
Here’s the Fernandex quote with context. I consider him one of the best commentators around.
The scenario predicted on this site is sadly coming to pass. The 2016 election is not about the continuity of governance, not about more of the same. It’s about the destruction of the old political system. It is either about the reform of Washington or it is nothing. In that struggle neither Trump nor Hillary can emerge from this wreck with a stable mandate because the forces on either side are so evenly matched.
They will become either transitional figures or, in the face of crisis, authoritarian ones. Because America is so close to a 50-50 split, the new president must either accommodate or purge, become the president of both sides or the leader of one. Trump at least, has the advantage (if one may call it that) of having shallow roots in the Deep State. Whatever his tendencies Trump will be checked by the bureaucracy, Congress and the Courts. His very cheesiness disarms him.
With Hillary the protections of law are less certain in proportion to her power with the backroom boys. But in her favor is the the fact that after Hillary, there may be no liberal or progressive administration for decades to come. After her the left wing has no place else to go. She can be the cure, if you can stand near the death experience that goes along with it.
In the end the near term outcome is out of any individual’s hands. Chance will determine who becomes president in 2016. In the longer term the trends are clearer. The status quo is doomed and much that was fair will alas be doomed with it.
https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2016/08/01/divided-and-under-attack/
Nick,
A healthy economy certainly includes service industries but such an economy is based in production of goods. I find that manufacturing statistic a bit suspicious, what percentage of manufactured consumer goods does that consist?
Do you disagree that manufacturing jobs have declined with lower paying service jobs replacing them?
Agriculture is a positive but corporate farming, of which much U.S. agriculture consists, has limited utility.
Do you agree that Hillary’s economic prescriptions will make things much worse? Do you think we currently have a healthy, robust economy with 94 million Americans jobless?
Chester Draws–When I refer to immigration issues, I am referencing “illegal immigration” and the following (excerpted from an speech by Scott Pruitt–Attorney General, State of Oklahoma):
“Another way President Obama has expanded his power is by refusing to enforce laws he does not like, effectively repealing them. He has done this with immigration laws by designating entire classes of people as having ‘legal status’, even though the law clearly states that they are unlawfully present.”
This HRC promises to continue. I am a granddaughter of immigrants, people who came to this country legally and became “Americans”. I liken your response to what I wrote as similar to the liberal trope that a position against gay marriage makes you a “hater”. Believing that the immigration laws should be enforced in the interest of what is best for America does not make one anti-immigrant, quite the opposite, it respects American citizens and immigrants wishing to come to this country lawfully.
“But in fact, one of the main reasons Trump has done as well as he has so far is that so many Americans are in favor of many of his positions, in particular his positions on illegal immigration.”
__
Which is why so many conservatives have been so critical of Obama as president. They’ve not been in favor of his positions (policies, tactics, politicization of everything included), in particular his positions on illegal immigration.
And the mainstream media’s response has been to level charges of, “RASCISM”. Entirely off base. Entirely irrational. And entirely revealing the level of corruption percolating within the media (in their quest to aid Obama)
They are simply not that stupid to render such a cause. They know its not racism. They know its because his are radical, completely far Left notions and executive orders and politicized behaviors. The media knows this. and knew it from the outset.
Maggie Gray:
Why don’t you read the nearly 200 posts I’ve written about Trump if you’re curious to know what I actually think?
Better yet, why don’t you even try reading this post, which (as I already pointed out) is not primarily about what Republicans think of Trump, or what I think of Trump?
Note that I’ve never said I’m a neverTrumper, not that you actually care to learn what I have or have not said.
And no, you don’t sound the least bit happy. You are a good example of the collective hive mind on the right, which bears certain resemblances to the collective hive mind of the left.
Oh, and if you care to actually learn some facts about Trump and the woman he tried to chase from her home in Atlantic City, see this.
GB, I haven’t checked the numbers. But a lot of manufacturing jobs weren’t high-paying, and a lot of service jobs aren’t low-paying. Like I said, the service industry is burger-flipper, investment banker, Kinko’s, Mayo Clinic…you lose a lot of information lumping them together.
Nick,
In general, the higher paying service sector jobs grow or decline with the economy and require much education and experience. They are not typically a replacement for lost manufacturing jobs. The service sector jobs found by those who have lost their manufacturing jobs, do not match the lost income. Machinists do not transition into investment banker positions or a position with the Mayo Clinic. They transition into burger flipper jobs.
The average compensation per full-time-equivalent worker in 2015 was $66923 in agriculture, $81289 in manufacturing, and $64688 in other (which is services, more or less). So yeah, there’s a difference. Hotels, restaurants, and retail sales really pull down the average.
I’ve never seen numbers that split out consumer versus industrial manufacturing.
“Believing that the immigration laws should be enforced in the interest of what is best for America does not make one anti-immigrant, quite the opposite, it respects American citizens and immigrants wishing to come to this country lawfully.”
I think a solid conservative position includes enforcement of existing immigration laws with a sane legal immigration policy.
What’s troubling about the current TrumpGOP stance is that, without a lot of parsing and excuse-making, it does come across as racist or racist-tinged. I agree that leftist pundits and opinion makers are going to push the “racist” card as much as possible, but we should know that, and be smart about communication. Tarring Mexicans as rapists, floating dumb ideas about deporting Muslims or banning all Muslims (yes, you heard me. Dumb ideas) – he’s since backed away from these somewhat and has had some other people craft speeches for him where he talks more about “vetting” – much better communication but you can’t undo the damage. A lot of good, law-abiding Muslims are terrified of a Trump presidency, and for good reason.
What I just said will queue up in some of you a lot of this kind of parsing: “Mexican isn’t a race”, “Muslim isn’t a race”. Have at it – and have fun losing the election.
Current TrumpGOP dogma has you on a sled to nowhere. Communicating to all immigrants (not just illegal ones) that “we hate you” is a one-way ticket to irrelevancy, along with being immoral. The conservative worldview is compelling, and should include all people regardless of race. If you haven’t noticed, the GOP has lost most minorities and the TrumpGOP has lost nearly all of them, if polls are to be believed.
Enforce the laws. Improve vetting. Celebrate legal immigration and immigrants as a national and economic good. Promote racial healing, rather than continued balkanization and racial animosity. Sell a conservative vision of self-responsibility, strong families, liimted government interference and a sane and good social safety net. We have the best message, and we need to be inclusive with it. That’s what we need to be doing. That’s a message that will resonate. Unless you think our country somehow will become “whiter” over time (it won’t even if we were somehow able to stop all immigration. There are a lot of legal immigrants already here and they have babies at higher rates than many white people. Plus, if you want the GOP to be the “white” party, count me out).
Trump has done a lot of damage to the GOP/conservative movement. in this area.
Oops. Bad agriculture number there. I was including mining. Agriculture averages $37663 per full-time-equivalent, and mining averages $121806.
It is not yet time for war, “to everything there is a season”.
People have been saying that for decades now, in the US. All they are doing is convincing the Left to bring down the hammer, and gives them time to bring even more assets into play.
While the Left was marching through US institutions and mind controlling children, people probably thought it wasn’t worth going to war with evil either. So now we are here, with the same old fools talking about HRC is evil…. well she didn’t become like that instantly or on her own Witch of the West self.
The Alt Right hasn’t demonstrated they have what it takes to beat evil. Bush II beat Kerry in 2004. Now where is Kerry? Some “defeat” there. The Alternative Right (One third betrayed Republicans, one third internet sub communities, one third white nationalist Democrats) hasn’t shown they are capable of killing evil. They have shown they can beat the Left using the Left’s own Alinsky playbook. But the ALinsky Playbook is how HRC got to be as evil as she is. That’s how Hussein did it too, under Ayers his mentor.
So if you use the tricks of evil to beat evil, yet that way is exactly how evil came to possess these souls on earth, what exactly do the Alt Right think they can do against forces which they do not understand? If they did understand, why have they allowed the Leftist alliance to Live unmolested for a century and more… they are ignorant, of course they are ignorant. Many of their organizations and factions were burn a year or two ago. They are babes in the woods against the ferocious Elder gods of the Leftist alliance, which includes Hussein O as the God Emperor of the Left, and HRC as the Wicked Witch of the West.
The problem which people should contemplate, is not about Trum or HRC. It’s about their supporters. When Trumbart and supporters get on a train and go down the path of evil, the same way Demoncrats did, what do they think they will gain in this world after losing their souls? Kings and politicians die off. The people’s culture, tends to last longer. Corrupt the culture, and everything pretty much dies on the vine. Trum is 70 yo. HRC is nearing the end too. They’ll be dead, but what about Trumbart’s supporters? Having sacrificed so much to beat the Left at the Left’s game, why not just replace the Left.
You’ve NEVER met him, you’ve NEVER done business with him and yet you’re so sure you know him. I find that disgusting.
To use Maggie’s contradiction against if her, if she is disgusted by this, why is she fine with her own soul and conscience doing the same for Trump’s business? Maggie has not done business with Trum, so how does she know he is honest and forthright of a capitalist…
What people think they know, mostly came from the propaganda arms. Now that the Alt Right has a propaganda arm as powerful as the Leftist alliance’s MSewerMedia… well, all bets are off there. Humans are vulnerable to self deception and the Art of Propaganda, irregardless of who uses it.
Ymarsakar: “Bush II beat Kerry in 2004. Now where is Kerry? Some “defeat” there”
Well, Kerry isn’t President. We didn’t live under 4 – 8 years of John Kerry as President, and we got four more years of Bush. So that’s a win.
Also – I can’t tell. Are you advocating an actual, shooting civil war or just predicting one?
I think the chances of a shooting civil war in this country anytime in the near future are 0%. Unrest, yes (we already have that). Domestic and international terrorism, yes, unfortunately.
The creation of an opposition government that declares independence from the US government, gets allegiance from a significant portion of the US population and fields an army against the US military? . . . 0 percent chance. This is not going to happen.
Nick and GB,
Guys there are tons of information of the effects of the decline of the number of manufacturing jobs in the United States on the standard of living.
While it is true that not every job making something was a high paying job, (I doubt – though I do not know for sure – that painting stripes on Shiny Brite Xmas ornaments paid all that well) work in the automotive plants, the shipyards, the steel mills, the larger transportation industry suppliers did for many decades.
Even some household commodity manufacturing work, large as opposed to small appliances, seems to have shown good wage rates.
Now, what a loom hand in Charlotte or a laborer at the Goodyear tire plant in Asheboro would have been making while a tool crib minder in the Warren Mi Hydramatic plan , was potentially pulling down, say, 75 plus k including overtime, is harder to say off-hand. Nonetheless workers at a Murray of Ohio lawnmower plant, or a Caterpillar parts supplier in Illinois were certainly earning more regularly than does the average male waitress, at Applebees.
“
http://www.mlive.com/politics/index.ssf/2015/08/michigans_stumbling_middle_cla.html
“Guys there are tons of information of the effects of the decline of the number of manufacturing jobs in the United States on the standard of living.” – DNW
“Standard of Living” is a nebulous term. How are you defining it?
Nick,
As I’m sure you realize, ‘averages’ can be deceptive. In this case, the vast majority of wages in the service sectors are not even close to those ‘average’ wages. Management, especially upper management’s ‘wages’ greatly raise those industry ‘averages’. The same with agriculture and perhaps to a lesser degree, even manufacturing.
Ymarsakar,
Yes, a few people have been saying that for a long time. Which is irrelevant, until… enough people are willing to act upon it, which won’t happen until denial of the reality we face is no longer accepted as viable by the majority.
I fully agree, it is not Trump or Hillary but the supporters, the ‘weight’ of their supporting forces and each sides ‘strategic positioning’ that are the real issue.
Once again I ask; do I understand you correctly to be asserting that fighting fire with fire (adopting the enemy’s methods) destroys the soul and reduces one to their level? Is that correct and if so, what specific tactics and strategy do you recommend?
Basic statistics:
Measures of central tendency – mean (average) median, mode
Is the population distribution multi modal or unimodal
What is the shape of the population distribution – kurtosis (the tails relative to the)
Is the population distribution “normal” or another type
How “peaked” is the distribution curve.
“How To Lie With Statistics” was a good book for those interest.
And yes the “average” is greatly influenced by extreme values on the low and high end.
Wonderful post. Special mention to the comment from Wooly Bully yesterday.
@ neo-neocon:
“And I agree that Rubio was one of the strongest candidates for the general.”
The Trumpkins thought he was Jeb Jr.
I don’t see any way in hell 95% of them would’ve voted for Rubio, and that means Rubio would’ve immediately started the race down 25% in the GOP vote.
After Rubio dropped out, the Trumpkins shifted the same rhetoric to the remaining candidates while some like Kasich were never considered at all. They didn’t even register (had he taken the lead, I’m sure the Trumpkins would’ve rectified that).
And that is what this boils down to:
A cult-of-personality-like refusal to see anything other than what they wanted to see. The hardcore Trumpkins had blinders on from the beginning, mainly IMO because they thought they were the vanguard of a great movement.
Like Democrats passing Obamacare, when Trumpkins thought they had all the power they just rammed their agenda down everyone’s throats. That is a preview of how they would’ve governed had they won the general, because they would’ve taken a victory as validation of their righteous cause.
Geoffrey Britain (11:47) What are the Chinese going to do if trade with the US is entariffed or restricted? Who are they going to sell their hand towels and flashlights and t-shirts to? Venezuela?
It seems to me we have all the leverage in this situation — the US can survive paying an extra 50 cents a hand towel, and we can buy cheap stuff from Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia. Can the Chinese find another market like the US? Are they going to send all those factory workers back to the farm? I doubt it. I don’t see they would have much choice but to grimace and bear it.
OM:
“Two days ago Ben Shapiro played the section Trump’s foreign policy speech that addressed the Iraq war (31:30 in the podcast). Trump basically said “Bush lied people died all for nothing, but I (Trump) wouldn’t have done it…”
… So when Trump played “Monday morning quarterback”to attack GW Bush, and not to even mention HRC I found it especially loathsome.”
Regarding President Bush’s decision for Operation Iraqi Freedom, in addition to loathsome, Trump’s position – which tracks closely with demonstrably false Russian Left/alt-Right propaganda – is the clearest sign he’s unfit to be Commander in Chief.
Trump’s position that “the reasons for the [Iraq] war were blatantly wrong” is itself based on blatant legal and factual error: Explanation.
That being said, Clinton’s political record on Iraq is the clearest sign she’s unfit to be Commander in Chief. Clinton ‘evolved’ about her 2002 Senate vote by blatantly misrepresenting the Congressional instruction in the 2002 AUMF and OIF’s legal-factual basis. Then she opposed the crucial OIF Surge due to parochial calculation over the 2008 election. Then as Secretary of State, she was party to President Obama’s inhumane and strategically disastrous disengagement from Iraq that contravened the Strategic Framework Agreement.
Contra Trump and Clinton, in fact, nearly all the Bush administration case versus Saddam is substantiated. The decision for OIF was demonstrably correct on the law and facts: Explanation.
And that is what this boils down to:
A cult-of-personality-like refusal to see anything other than what they wanted to see. The hardcore Trumpkins had blinders on from the beginning, mainly IMO because they thought they were the vanguard of a great movement.
Matt: Basically I agree. I’d just add that the charismatic leader response is hard-wired into humans and is not necessarily a bad thing, though it sure can be.
I’ve flirted with charismatic leaders myself and gotten burned. My bit of wisdom is one must attend carefully to a leader’s character. Charisma can corrupt and usually does.
Then there’s the intoxication of being part of a vanguard movement. That’s cool too until it doesn’t quite work out.
Part of how I became conservative was noticing all the great movements I backed to change the world caused more problems than they solved.
Late back paying attention to this thread…
OM,
The Northwoods/lake country has been a summer retreat from the August heat and humidity since I was but a boy. We have longstanding connects with locals and local county sheriff’s department. It a fall back position.
GB,
I wound thee, but not enough to shut down your hillary but blather. 😉
Bill,
Stopped in Sydeny several times to buy 38 SPL snake shot. The land rises and you know you are on Rocky Mountain Time. I love the greenest of Iowa, but the high plains of Western Nebraska ans Eastern Wyoming always lift my spirit.
Eric:
Thanks for reinforcing and amplifying the Trump and HRC perfidy WRT Iraq. I thought you would probably flesh out the details of the two NY democrats, one being a con artist but in the closet, the other a criminal and in the open.
Bill, spent many days in the Snowy Range and the Wind River range of WYO. God’s Country.
Parker,
Land of the Big Sky.
@ huxley:
“Part of how I became conservative was noticing all the great movements I backed to change the world caused more problems than they solved.”
This is my one hope for the future: that disillusioned Trumpkins come to the same conclusion you did. Again, like the Churchill quote we are doing “everything else” right now instead of the right thing.
I think this is a fundamental reflection of American nature: to not pay attention to events and go on with our lives. When trouble arises, we have to re-learn previous lessons.
Well, Kerry isn’t President. We didn’t live under 4 — 8 years of John Kerry as President, and we got four more years of Bush. So that’s a win.
Also — I can’t tell. Are you advocating an actual, shooting civil war or just predicting one?
I think the chances of a shooting civil war in this country anytime in the near future are 0%. Unrest, yes (we already have that). Domestic and international terrorism, yes, unfortunately.
The creation of an opposition government that declares independence from the US government, gets allegiance from a significant portion of the US population and fields an army against the US military? . . . 0 percent chance. This is not going to happen.-Bill
We didn’t live under HRC for 4-8 years either, as her being President, yet look at the damage people say she has done which justifies X, Y and Z. Kerry is in the same position she was in. DC is the capital of evil on the eastern seaboard of the US. One cannot defeat evil with elections. That is a primary reason why I don’t believe in “because Hillary, we have to…” Unless they literally get rid of DC entirely, and smash the hanger ons, elections don’t matter in the war against the Left, strategically. Tactically, yes, strategically no.
The Left’s power is not harmed if they lose the Presidency. Which is why they are such fearsome opponents, far stronger in the USA than Islam is today. The Left’s power will grow with control of the US executive branch, but their power does not shrink even if the GOP wins the seat of the king.
I was predicting the second US civil war from about 2007, given what I knew of the power of the Leftist alliance, which most everyone else either ignored or refused to believe in. People were still considering them to be political enemies or opponents, but they still thought Democrats were “misguided” but inherently “Patriotic Americans”. That is where I diverged, once I found out the true nature of the Leftist alliance’s operations. Hussein’s Regime, however, shortened the predicted timetable from 50 years, to 25 years. Then the election of 2012 speeded things up even further, and the Left’s mobilization also increased in pace to match.
As for advocating war as the solution to these issues, that’s already been advocated by the Founding Fathers, American rebels, and various other non mainstream sub cultures in the US. You and others here may not know about them or hear of them online, but I do and have.
This is not going to happen.
That is a 2007, or 2010, mentality. I differ from you, Bill, not in a political sense, since many of my views about politics mirrors GB’s here. Although there are also critical differences. What GB says about the danger of the Leftist alliance, was something I took to heart starting in 2007. I had witnessed the Left’s evils first hand, when they crashed and burned the Iraq operations. It was intentional sabotage, not “unintentionally being unAmerican”. Vietnam thus set the context historically. As I looked further back to 1830s Democrats, I saw the same things. And the Left’s assets included many factions which normally would hate each other, such as homos under Gaystapo, blacks under BLM/Black Panthers/Nation of Islam, and whites under public unions like SEIU or police unions. Not even the states seceding from the union in 1859, had that much power and assets to call upon.
Once again I ask; do I understand you correctly to be asserting that fighting fire with fire (adopting the enemy’s methods) destroys the soul and reduces one to their level? Is that correct and if so, what specific tactics and strategy do you recommend?
I believe I wrote a response to your original comment, in the original thread. I’ll try to look it up if you need the link, since if you haven’t read it, it would be better than me writing it here again.
To GB:
http://neoneocon.com/2015/12/05/heres-the-speech-obama-made-today-addressing-the-san-bernardino-attacks/#comment-943557
The comment thread starts early, to let the context show.
A summarization of my previous reply on this topic, would be that adapting to enemy tactics is natural and expected of good tacticians in a war. But adopting the enemy’s methods, mirroring and cloning them, is becoming the enemy, not merely using the enemy’s bag of tools. For example, if the US took hostages, killed women and children on tv to intimidate confessions, that would not be merely using guerilla tactics like AQ or Islam. That would be becoming AQ and Islamic State.
The question of whether that is good or necessary, is a military decision based on pragmatism. Perhaps there will come a time when such things are good or a necessary evil, based on the context. Perhaps the US will have to strap bombs to children and adults, to use them as suicide bombers, because they are left with nothing else to fight with, as the Pali devils would claim as their own reason for existence. But to people like me, if the US or Americans ever got to that point of desperation, they would not have defeated their enemies. They would have become their enemies.
So the question in this context is different, since the issue is the Alt Right cloning the Left’s Alinsky rules. That, in itself, would merely be copying tactics. However, when the heart of the American people become indistinguishable from the Leftist death cult dogma Hussein Messiah worshipping devils of the Demoncrat party… what would profit people to win the world only to lose their soul?
As for my recommended methods, that again was listed in the previous thread.
Really? I thought it had a pretty well accepted signification, along the lines of what you would find by typing the term into Google:
A decline would be manifested by several indicators mentioned in the article, such as falling real income, declining purchasing power, especially discretionary, and concomitant generalized sociopolitical effects of declining personal income such as deteriorating roads and infrastructure.
I cannot recall a more precise definition from my years in school or in any of the econ texts we used … McConnell, comes to mind.
Of course, Marxist leaning professors would sometimes try and argue that public services were more important to general well-being than personal and discretionary income.
But I imagine you have something more like personal computers and cell phones in mind. And for someone with no interest in land, or boating, or personal aviation, and travel and so forth, those things might be imagined as offsetting … as all you need as base is a room and an electric plug in order to find fulfillment … if not health.
The link I provided was an older thread where I mentioned using an enemy’s tactics. The recent one where I replied to GB, I haven’t found yet, to clarify. It was in the last month or so, however.
@DNW – oh come on – still too nebulous. How do you measure it?
I know there is the Human Development Index, covering several factors. Some might only use the per capita GDP. Some might use some other statistic.
You’d then need to link a causal relationship on that with the “decline of manufacturing jobs”.
You might have an agreeable argument, but too many in “conservative” media throw terms like that out often conflating one cause and effect with another.
It is like the proposition that trade is bad because of the lost jobs and thus we are all worse off. It sounds true on the surface, but is it really true when you get down to the details on what you can measure?
Not much different than when we enter into a discussion about how “climate change is bad”.
http://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/standard-of-living.asp
One discussion about “standard of living”.
It is like the proposition that trade is bad because of the lost jobs and thus we are all worse off. It sounds true on the surface, but is it really true when you get down to the details on what you can measure?
The issue is Rockefeller’s Trilateral commission.
Are you serious? Did you even bother to read the article and note the statistical references?
Incomes declined in real terms. Economists have traced it to the reduction in, and loss of manufacturing, work.
Buying power declined significantly, and the particular county which was the subject of the article once was ” 17th in the nation in median household income, among more than 3,000 counties. …[and] dropped to 484th in the nation, while Michigan as a whole plummeted from sixth to 30th. ”
Now, I am going to let you talk to yourself, as you muse that correlation is not causality, and surf United Nations web sites for definitions of well-being.
@DNW – I am serious.
What applies to Michigan (or specifically a county in MI), even if we assume everything is true in the article, AND if we assume that it relates to your proposition “the decline of the number of manufacturing jobs is the causal link to a decline in the standard of living”, you still have to make the case it is true for the entire United States – your claim.
Jobs don’t create prosperity, it is business and its related investments.
To look at it and argue from the jobs perspective is taking the leftist framing of the issue. Was that your intention?