Paladino, religion, gay rights
New York candidate Carl Paladino proves just how politically incorrect he is when he made remarks critical of gays and gay marriage, provoking a firestorm of outrage.
Paladino’s statement will probably lose him votes rather than gain them. Nor is his viewpoint one I share. But it was the mainstream attitude when I was growing up, and most religions in their stricter form still have a policy on homosexuality much like the one Paladino articulated.
As for the word “dysfunctional,” (which he never uttered, but which supposedly was present in an earlier version of the speech, although perhaps placed there by others) until 1973-4 (and even beyond; see this for some of the history) the American Psychiatric Association shared this view.
What do we really know about gay people and society at this point? Here is my own idiosyncratic summary:
(1) Being gay is neither is wholly biological nor wholly environmental, but most likely some roughly equal mix of the two.
(2) The predilection to be gay is not wholly a choice, but the act is. However, the only viable alternative for many or most gay people people is lifelong celibacy, an exceedingly difficult road.
(3) Some people hate homosexuals, by no means all who disapprove of gay marriage hate gay people.
(4) Religious education (which, after all, was the real subject of Paladino’s speech) today runs counter to the prevailing teachings about homosexuality in secular education, which is equality, tolerance, and even pride.
(5) Public schools—which ideally, in my opinion, could ignore the subject and leave it to parents to deal with—are often forced to tackle it due to the bullying and fighting that often go along with the phenomenon.
[NOTE: Paladino’s full statement is here, in case you’re interested:]
In the Republican and Democratic parties you of the common herd are not expected to think. That is not only unnecessary but might lead you astray. That is what the “intellectual” leaders are for. They do the thinking and you do the voting. They ride in carriages at the front where the band plays and you tramp in the mud, bringing up the rear with great enthusiasm.
– E.V. Debs, June 16, 1918
A very reasoned, mature and compassionate position but one that leaves the question of morality out and hence whose voice should prevail in education. We could all agree to be neutral about morality on this issue and let the state be silent; this seems to be the answer most people want.
Ironic that both Islamists and militant gays share opposition to such a solution. Could it be that both fear normal sex? Aren’t they heterosexualphobes?
For most people I knew so called “homophobia” is not any kind of hatred, but mostly revulsion, like when seeing grimly disfigured face. Revulsion and hatred are two very different kinds of emotion. Quite often, it is accompined with pity and compassion. What actually pissed people off is arrogance and “in you face” behaviour of gay activists. This gay right movement obviously worn out its usefulness and is now unnecessary and harmful social irritant.
What part of Paladino’s “viewpoint”, if any, do you agree with, Neo? Do you limit your non-sharing of views to his intended veto of gay marriage? Or does your disagreement extend to his defense of the heterosexual nuclear family?
Your “idiosyncratic” view of homosexuality is that it is partly environmental. If that is so, is it in our best interest to enhance the environment pro homosexuality, as is now the case? The gay rights crowd is also the anti-Israel crowd, BTW; is that linkage at all troubling?
Public schools–which ideally, in my opinion, could ignore the subject and leave it to parents to deal with–are often forced to tackle it due to the bullying and fighting that often go along with the phenomenon.
your way off on this one.. as parents are now only wards under parens patria. they either do what the state says, and think what they want, or you can lose your kids…
parents are not to be trusted with the kids… that has been the mantra for a while, and women advocates for the cause in medicine and courts have labored very hard to insure that that image you paint is appears viable.
but any glance at the stats would shoot a hole in that… what is the percentage in single parent homes who work to support a caretaker and whose father isnt there?
you CANT support modern feminism which says women should not have the right to be mothers by choice and that the state should have th kids and that was decided at teh womens caucus..
AND have family, relatives, holidays, old age with grand kids, etc.
i really really wish, that we would learn that ANTITHESIS means what it means and that there is no such thing as compromise between thesis (family) and antithesis (state as family/tribe/etc)
you only have to read the wants of the sex communes translated into modern society thanks to socialism and the idea of fulfilling Stalins wish of debasing the US… (for it was healthy)
the same in your face behavior that sergey mentions is what will undo us, as that behavior feeds teh larger group who would leave them alone and defend them except for the fact that their culture is to jam things into your face you dont want… by the way, i wouldnt want a heterosexual couple sitting aruodn telling me what they like sexually either.
so what happens is that a strong leader will soon appear. one that will set things straight… we saw that with obama… the concept and idea is not dead, its dangerously at the fore…
in fact, that loosness and desire to return and clean up is the hope and change that was implied…
and like hitler, the main people will say…
if free speech means i have to be subjected to their shit, then lets get rid of it.
if free speech means that we have no say over those others who get to subject us becuase they are priveleged, lets get rid of that.
and someone spouting totalitarianisms power to fix these things from the perverse society (like weimar), and fix economy, and fix etc…
is how you get it after the ground work is set.
when the soldiers dont fire at us, we lose.
right sergey? the czars and the state fell because they did NOT fire… if ours don’t fire, we wont have a state to defend or return to its roots… you would have to read as to what was the moment of the success of the revolution (while lenin was still in germany or finland).
meanwhile, the gays support totalitarian socialism.
sergey, would you like to inform the people here how the ex soviet states treat gays?
that is, how do the social darwnists, communists, sociliss, etc… see homosexuality?
if i remember correctly, disposable tools which no one cares what they do with when they are done…
that is, they are targeted by communists and socialsits because they feel their own society is against them and they will work to cause it to fail. this is why so many spies were gay… they could lead double lives and were easy to turn either by their own self society hate, or by blackmail.
they are not selected because they are more effective, or better, they are selected because they are disposable and natural traitors.
this is why societies over time have not liked them.
another reason is that they refuse to cooperatively live by the rules of the society that they are a part of.
that despite huge cultural bias against that, like the bias against murder, torture, etc… they will ignore it, and do what they like…
dont believe me? how they doing on aids? by now they should be the group least likely to have it, if they are the group most vociferous about proper cultural rules as to behavior. right?
but alas, they are some of the biggest desease vectors in society… (in the old days, they were even more so, as these deseses had no cures).
want to know what group molests children most? gays… their effort to pain children as different while at the same time painting children as sexual beings, doesn’t add up, does it? is the number one molester of boys, women, or men? is the number one molester of teenage boys, women, or men?
when you see the SF gay parade and the children in sexual fetish wear that can barely talk, dont you think that they are sexualizing children? or do you think gay fetish clothing is a good thing for a child to wear publicly while watching gays fornicate…
of course as a parent things get stranger.
that is, this is something the schools shouldn’t deal with, but parents should, but how can they if the culture doesnt keep adult things behind closed doors?
that GSLEN puts out loving fisting instructions…
(did you know that?)…
you acn see obamas safe school czar admitting that the bully thing is a ruse and that its all about programming… (see fisting controversy)
and the recent horrible thing that happened in ny..
did anyone other than me notice that when liberals let tons of illegals in, they didnt check if those illegals will bring their very negative biases against gays with them.
so while gays are fighting for mroe immigrants, those immigrants are EXACTLY the type to want to have gays removed…
read the names of the defendants and realize that they are part of the Spanish gangs. like mara sevrucha, etc…
but they are not going to mention that, since gays are beign used and are expendible.
here is what happens in russia
the land where they said, and dfeminsits said, and blacks say, that things are fair.
Gay activists beaten and arrested in Russia
· Police watch as neo-Nazis attack protesters
· MEPs among 30 detained as aggressors go free
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/may/28/russia.gayrights
Homosexuals in Modern China
Hostile society keeps China’s gay community cowed
“It’s very common for Chinese gays not to have a single homosexual lover in their life,” said Wu, noting that finding a steady partner was hard even for the minority who dared to venture out to tolerated gay meeting spots like Beijing’s Dongdan Park and the five-star Kuniun Hotel’s discotheque.
and other places, they seem to want to cut body parts off them…
yet what country do they want to attack?
mostly because if they did their thing someplace else they would not fair so well..
that is, they bully the US and free countries, because thats better than bullying those that fight back.
why dont we see how other cultures get to use our non culture and its bs..
how japanese see blacks
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djZIpmp_nVo
the point is that this has more than just the close up and personal of the gays… aroudn the world, their shtick, makes and changes others behaviors and respect.
just as American blacks artificially created socialist culture, has repercussions…
and its not good…
because respect is important…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GpNSip5gyKo&feature=player_embedded
I admit it. I eat fast. I don’t know why I do it. I just do. Always have. But I’m not hurting anyone. Anyway, it makes me who I am. It’s not wrong. There’s no proof that fast eaters suffer ill health. In Rome, it was an art. In fact, new studies show fast eaters are quite accomplished in all other fields. We are your friends, neighbors, teachers, relatives.
I’m tired of hearing, “slow down, enjoy your food.” My friends and I won’t allow your fasteaterphobia any longer. We demand you accept us; we demand you use your taxpayer dollars to change opinion about us. We demand you use the national school system, the judicial system, the entertainiment and media to create a loving and tolerant environment for us. If you don’t, we will despise you, call you names, label you hateful, boycott you, maybe even spike your food because there are alot of us, as you can imagine, in the culinary industry. Hopefully, one day, we will all be fasteaters.
I have problems with people who demand acceptance. The few gay people i know aren’t like that. I don’t demand anything from them either. And we seem to get along just fine.
Not quite OT.
If, as has been regularly claimed, being gay is genetic, or combines genetics and in utero influences of various kinds–speculative–then it seems reasonable to expect that prenatal testing could discern the likelihood that a child will be born gay.
At which point, some folks may elect to abort the child.
This would bring two viewpoints into conflict.
This demand for universally friendly environment is childish and narcissist. Tolerance is one thing; demand for majority to accept warped, perversed worldview of small minority is a quite another thing. Democracy means that minority should conform to social norms established by majority, and if there is a contradiction, minority must keep low profile and avoid confrontation. This is fairly easy for gays to be invisible. Why look for trouble? Nobody is interested in your sexual orientation, if you yourself do not rise the ussue.
The “I know gay people” experience is nearly universal and powerful. It serves as a strong deterrent to over-reaction and outright violence. If it were not for the militant gays who are being used by our own home-bred communists, these people would be left alone. Paul Kengor’s new book, “Dupes: How America’s Adversaries Have Manipulated Progressives for a Century,” explains how communists have capitalized on civil rights ideology to divide and conquer.
Paladino was refering to these types of gays. It appears the tea party movement has brought an objection of them onto the playing field of politics. Paladino is not necessarily backing down. The overwrought reaction by the left might be more damaging to Cuomo’s candidacy. People might just review the whole of Paladino’s statements and find they just aren’t quite as knuckle dragging as projected.
Huh? What? “It appears the tea party movement has brought an objection of them(gays-Ed.) onto the playing field of politics.” Whaddayamean?
So, are you suddenly saying the goal is to be “politically correct”?
How about a goal of seeking TRUTH?
“Political correctness” comes and goes with the prevailing wind. “Gays” are hero(esses) today, but tomorrow they will be “queers” again.
The truth is that those who devote their sexual activities to the same sex have problems. I don’t hate them, but I do not have to celebrate their perversion.
It seems to me that public schools do not just teach not to bully, they also teach equality, tolerance and pride. That is the rub. They are imposing political views. I wish they would just teach reading, writing and arithmetic. They do not do a good job at that.
To Tom: The tea party addresses the most virulent form of political correctness which is gay rights. But its not “gay rights” per se which many are opposed to; it is the methods of the militants and sexual freaks who have destroyed any possibility of compromise. They have slandered and defamed and misrepresented and sued and bullied and been the exact examples of the hate they accuse others of. It is this intolerance and jack booted reaction (read the comments on various blogs) to any other view which has turned public opinion slowly but inexorably away from gay rights.
Curtis: Got it. I agree. But for a mo’ I was worried you were calling the Tea Parties out for it. In fact, I am not aware of any TP hereabouts taking a position on gays or their claimed ‘rights’; they are much more concerned about the general highjacking of the Republic.
Laying my cards on the table, I agree with what Paladino said.
But whether one does or not, as many commenters have pointed out, the attack on Paladino is not a criticism of what he said, but an attempt to deny him the right to say it.
The PC left/media is trying to make the subject of homosexuality off-limits to anyone not part of the leftist gay lobby.
They are trying to shut down free speech and it’s just about that simple.
It might have been this sort of thing Paladino was thinking of when he said he wouldn’t take his children to the gay pride parade:
http://zombietime.com/prop_8_gay_marriage_ruling/
Outside of Manhattan, P-town, etc., such a view is the norm, folks.
He also said he wasn’t interested in picking on homosexuals, and in fact, I doubt seriously he or any other Republican would persecute them. But it’s not “fair” to make majority of the population bow to the will of 5% when it comes to defining marriage.
I agree the State should mostly stay out of the issue, pro and con.
Tom TRH @ 9:29pm “They are trying to shut down free speech and it’s just about that simple.”
Exactly right. They say people who are “intolerant” should just shut up. Here’s the problem with that: Tolerance IMPLIES disapproval. Tolerance is the condition of acquiescing to to something one doesn’t like. Simply expressing disapproval doesn’t mean Mr Paladino is intolerant.
He just lost my vote. When he loses, NYers will remember the faces surrounding him when he gave this hate speech. There is a reason we are told to stay out of politics….
Amy, is it that you were you positively inclined beforehand, and something about this speech tipped the scales? Or is it that whatever you disliked about the speech (and there are a number of possibilities) is so overwhelming and disqualifying that it would overcome your otherwise strong support? This is a long-winded way of asking whether you are a single-issue voter.
In either case, I would be interested in hearing what it means to you for you to take that position. Obviously, you feel strongly. Help us understand.
One more question: who are the “we” who need to stay out of politics?
Oblio: “Amy” is a troll of a particularly odious sort. I kept the comment up rather than erasing it because it illustrates something.
Read what she actually says again (I don’t know if it’s really a “she,” by the way; the comment originates in India—supposedly—but that is a proxy, most likely, used to conceal its true origins, which are unknown). “Amy” poses as a resident of New York, and says Paladino has lost her. This, by the way, would be a valid point of view for a gay rights activist, although my guess is that a gay rights activist would be unlikely to be a Paladino supporter in the first place. But then she writes that New Yorkers will remember the faces surrounding him when he gave the hate speech, and that “we” are told to stay out of politics for a reason.
Who is “we?” Take a look at the video. Paladino is surrounded by Chasidic Jews. The troll “Amy” either means Chasidic Jews or, more likely, Jews in general.
Taking neo’s assumptions:
1) There is nowhere near that much genetic influence for ANY complex human behavior.
The “born that way” claim serves 2 purposes:
– it sidesteps moral and clinical discussion of the promiscuity that typifies the gay “community”
– with Big Lie propaganda techniques of repetition, it creates a sloppy association between “occurring in nature” and “normal, well-adjusted, healthy”
2) Your assertion that homosexuality cannot be cured shows that the “born that way” propaganda has worked – at least partially – on you.
In fact the psychological literature up until the 70s had numerous articles on successful treatment of unwanted homosexual desires. The paper trail dries up abruptly in the mid-70s because that’s when the activists took over.
Homosexuality is similar to other compulsive/addictive behaviors. It can be treated using the same techniques as for drink, drugs, and eating disorders, with the same success rates.
3) Yes, I agree wholeheartedly. The prevalent patterns of behavior in the gay “community” sharply contradict widely held beliefs about health, adult sexual expression. They certainly have nothing to do with the commitment and intimacy that characterize marriage.
There is nothing “hateful” or “prejudiced” in pointing out the obvious.
4) and 5) Well, no. Schools have become hotbeds of PC indoctrination, and any bullying is a result of progressives forcing the issue.
From longitudinal studies, we know that 25-30 percent of teens experience transient same-sex attractions (what used to be called “crushes” in a saner age). Since those identifying as homosexual are only 2 percent of the population – the vast majority of those kids go on to integrate a normal heterosexual identity.
Or at least they used to – now these innocents have been made grist for the mill of PC indoctrination, and what was once a minor blip of adolescence is now given the full identity-politics treatment.
I don’t think significant numbers will be “turned” to homosexuality – but they are certainly being burdened and defiled with yet another set of hypersexual messages from the adults around them.
It is naive to think of the schools as anything like ideologically neutral ground.
Neo, what an ugly example of anti-Semitism, as well as utter stupidity.
Oblio: if you think that one was ugly, you should see the ones I delete immediately.
What actually surprize me that medical and psychological discussions of genesis of homosexuality completely ignore seminal works of Zigmund Freud on this matter. He was the first to investigate clinically and empirically a lot of cases of deviating sexuality and mechanisms of libido fixation in the course of individual development from early infancy to adulthood both in norm and pathology, and associated problem in personality development. He found that libido can attach itself to different body parts and different bechaviours during individual development, and that there are some patterns in changing this fixation. This changes can be influenced by experience and external events, and they are valid targets of therapy. Early experimentation can lead to abnormal fixation, since any bechavior producing pleasure are addictive. It is not easy to overcome such addictions, just as in case of drug addiction, but this is possible. So the main point of Paladino statesment that homosexuality creates problems both to individual and society and is dysfunctional, and that children should not be encouraged to risky experimentation but warned and restrained from it, is valid.