Eric Garner; Michael Brown
This assessment of the Eric Garner case seems just about right to me. As does this one.
The death of Eric Garner was a sad sequence of events, with unintentional overkill (literally) by the police. There is no evidence there was any racist motive, but the video indicates that police were unresponsive to the fact that Garner was experiencing dangerous physical symptoms as a result of their manner of subduing him—possibly recklessly, which could have justified an indictment for second-degree manslaughter. Until we see the evidence we don’t know, but that’s certainly a logical conclusion from the video.
Paul Mirengoff writes:
There is no doubt that the officer who killed Garner was informed by the victim repeatedly that, because of the officer’s hold, Garner couldn’t breathe. It also looks very much like the officer didn’t need to maintain the hold that prevented Garner from breathing in order to keep him subdued. Garner was on the ground looking like a beached whale with multiple officers more or less on top of him. Surely, the police officer could have loosened his hold without jeopardizing the arrest.
But did the hold itself actually kill Garner? Here’s an article that evaluates the evidence in the best possible light for the police, focusing on intent and how Garner’s health may have contributed.
The fact that the Michael Brown and Eric Garner cases are juxtaposed in time makes it easy for people to lump them together, as many were already inclined to do anyway. But they are very different in their fact situations. Brown was physically attacking the officer who feared for his life, Garner was definitely not doing anything of the sort. The only similarities the two cases have in terms of fact situation (beside the grand juries’ failure to indict) are these: white officer and black civilian, with the latter physically large; the civilian resisting arrest (Brown using serious aggression, Garner passively); and the death of the civilian that police were attempting to detain or arrest (by different means and for different reasons).
Another similarity is, of course, the amount of publicity these particular cases have gotten, and the use of the two cases by those wishing to whip up racial animosity. Neither case contains anything that indicates a racial motive on the part of the police, but that doesn’t stop people from assuming there was one and speaking accordingly.
[NOTE: Here’s a good piece on eyewitness testimony in the Brown case.]
[ADDENDUM: Garner’s arrest was apparently supervised by a black female sergeant.]
Libertarians, including Tea Party members, ought to take up the Eric Garner case and help distinguish the two cases.
Anyone getting tired of all the stereotyping of cops and white people? Neither of these cases says anything about race in America. Now the reactions from certain politicians and news media tell us a lot about them. But not a damn thing about the people sitting in their living rooms after a day of work being told that they are guilty because of something that happened in incidents hundreds or thousands of miles away.
Unless there is cause, don’t resist arrest. Especially when you are knowingly violating the law. Especially when you have a preexisting medical condition that may result in your mortality. I wonder if this was part of the so-called “suicide by cop” phenomenon.
I find it hard to believe that many cops are needed to arrest a guy selling cigarettes.
I think Andrew’s McCarthy article is excellent on this issue
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/393933/staten-island-decision-andrew-c-mccarthy
Jed,
I agree, McCarthy’s usual excellent analysis.
IMO, having seen the video, the New York City police officer Pantaleo, did apply a choke hold on Eric Garner. As McCarthy points out however, if the hold was severe enough to cause death, Garner couldn’t have repeatedly spoken out. Garner did resist arrest and regardless of whether he actually had committed a crime or was being harassed by police, once he started resisting after being told he was under arrest and refused to cooperate, he opened himself to the use of sufficient force to compel him to comply.
Thus far, the following is the only information on the NYC grand jury proceedings the judge is allowing to be made public:
And that may be all we’ll get because of this:
The Staten Island incident differs from Ferguson in one important detail. Brown was aggressive and had committed a strong arm robbery just minutes before the encounter with Wilson. Garner was selling individual cigarettes to enable customers to avoid over the top taxes. Yes, Garner resisted arrest which is stupid, but instead of arrest he should have been issued a citation on par with a traffic violation. Waco and Ruby Ridge were disputes over tax matters that resulted in multiple deaths. The incident in Staten Island appears to fall into the same category.
In this particular incident, what the police did was unacceptable if applied to ordinary citizens. That should be the standard. Cops should be held to standards that apply to the peasants.
Excessive force, though, isn’t the same as homicide or manslaughter; ergo the no indictment. And excessive force under the law probably has a specific definition, which this arrest procedure didn’t meet.
Tragic for Garner, but not ipso facto homicide.
In Manhattan, the Working Families Party et al. are out buggering up traffic and blocking bridges and tunnels again. A fair number of them are in Union Square, and the Propagandists are breathlessly covering it for the [Not Necessarily] News broadcasts. Helicopters have been aloft since ~ 4:00 pm.
BTW, if anyone is interested in monitoring live police radio feeds, the Broadcastify website has them, for many cities.
“I can’t breathe”.
The irony is simply arresting my ability to.
Mr. Garner should never have died. I genuinely feel bad about it.
That he had both a heart attack and asthma is crushing. On many levels.
But the irony lost on all Leftists, Progressives and far too many Liberals is equally stultifying.
A man, who NEVER should have lost his life, did so for defying a recently enacted law by the Left. Those who found it virtually intolerable to imagine that some people would actually go to the extent of breaking up a pack of cigarettes to sell, “loosies”.
“Sacra Bleu, such an affront to the state!”
“ARREST THAT MAN, HE’S SELLING LOOSIES.”
“But, what about that guy selling the joint down the street?”
“Fuhgeddaboutit, it’s just marijuana. And we’re trying to legalize that ‘cuz we’re into nature and natural highs and those who remember the ’60’s and Woodstock and the Age of Aquarius and Peace and Love and tie-dyed shirts and Occupy Wall Street and…”
::::::It is truly an irony for the ages::::::::
Ohhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…………(has anyone got a spare tuning fork?)
Beverly:
My understanding of the charge is that recklessness would have to be involved.
See added ADDENDUM at end of the post.
parker: “In this particular incident, what the police did was unacceptable if applied to ordinary citizens.”
As I understand it, there were complaints to the police by local merchants about the “loosie” sales in the neighborhood. Garner had been charged nine times previously for selling “loosies.” (Quoted on the Hannity show.) So, he was a repeat offender of selling of black market merchandise.
Garner was a nuisance for merchants and they wanted to get him off their streets. The police were ordered to bring him in. Why he chose to resist arrest is unknowable. A man with his health conditions – asthma and heart problems – was in no condition to tussle with four cops. The takedown and subsequent manhandling of Garner undoubtedly triggered a severe asthma attack, which brought on his cries that he couldn’t breathe. That might have triggered a cardiovascular event that killed him. Dr. Michael Badden says there was some bruising to the throat, but no crushing of the windpipe or fracture of bones, which would lead to death. Probably why the grand jury did not indict.
Eric Garner is dead because he was a nuisance black marketeer who resisted arrest and was in very poor health. The cops were following orders from city hall and followed normal police procedure. Officer Pantaleo’s life is probably ruined and the city is probably going to have to pay Garner’s family a few million bucks. A tragedy all around.
Neither the Michael Brown case nor the Eric Garner case have anything to do with racism by police. Both are tragedies that have to do with resisting policemen who are trying to do their duty and come home alive at the end of the day. Resisting police is always a bad idea. If you should happen to win the encounter, you will be hunted down. If you lose, you will either be injured or in the morgue. There is no way to win except in court.
Both of the men who died were very large. Garner dwarfed the cops who were faced with the daunting task of arresting him against his will. Brown was not only large but was aggressive. There aren’t a lot of options in these cases. If Garner had been Maced or Tazered, his illness may have done him in.
I recall a bumper sticker from the Sixties. It said, if you don’t like the police, next time you need help, call a hippie.
A few things. But first a disclaimer: A) I work in Law Enforcement B) I have been an instructor martial arts and defensive tactics (DT) and C) only. Irving the video, I cannot say whether the vote for a No True Bill is correct. I am not taking a side.
First, someone quoted McCarthy as saying…”if the hold was severe enough to cause death, Garner couldn’t have repeatedly spoken out. ”
Not necessarily true. If Garner’s breathing were obstructed enough to possibly cause the heart attack, he could have spoken later. In other words, consider this scenario:
Officer Pantaleo applies choke hold.
Garner can’t breathe and struggles.
Garner begins to feel the effects of Cardiac Arrest.
Garner stops struggling against the choke hold.
Officer Pantaleo eases up on the chokehold, but does not release.
Garner is able to vocalize that he can’t breath because he is in the throes of cardiac arrest, and possibly a panic induced asthma attack.
I am not saying that is what happened. But it’s possible.
Next: J.J. said, “The cops were following orders from city hall and followed normal police procedure.”
I don’t know about the first part but I can say that I don’t know of a single NYS agency that considers a choke hold normal police procedure. It’s dangerous, in the extreme. It’s not taught by any agency that I know of, for use on any type of individual. In my opinion, it’s reckless and irresponsible.
(For some reason, it only published part of my comment. And before I had a chance to edit it. Hmm.)
So, continued.
Since no agency that I know of teaches choke holds or allows them, they also don’t indemnify their officers that apply them. True Bill or not, the officer has a lot of potential legal problems coming. And, I believe he should.
Finally, if it was necessary to arrest Garner there are options that don’t include reckless or excessive force. Fixating on whether Garner should have been arrested clouds the issue. It’s the method of arrest that I question.
People might say OC spray. But with his asthma, that might have gone bad, too.
There’s the Tazer. But I don’t trust them with heart conditions. (Did Garner have a heart condition or was he just asthmatic and obese?)
There are grappling and joint lock techniques that might have worked well, too.
I don’t have all of the answers. Like I said before, i haven’t seen enough evidence to guess whether they should have indicted. But it does look careless and irresponsible. It smacks of hyped up, ‘Take ’em down!’, overly aggressive tactics. And possibly criminal tactics.
Just my two cents.
I just read the Gateway piece on the black female sergeant who oversaw the arrest. That sure ought to take the race card out of the picture.
I just watched the video again, after watching a press conference by the PBA spokesman.
In the press conference, the spokesman says that the Officer applied a “seatbelt” hold (one arms under and through the subject’s armpit, the other around the side of the neck), which is not technically a choke hold. And I can’t speak to NYPD training on seatbelt holds. My agency doesn’t train for them.
The video does show the seatbelt hold at the beginning. However, later on, when Garner is on the ground, on his side, the officer’s arm is now in a choke formation (one-armed, arm around the neck).
Mr. PBA isn’t being entirely truthful.
P.S.- Sorry to go all Artfldgr all of a sudden.
expat: “That sure ought to take the race card out of the picture.”
Only if facts matter. 🙁
Here’s some commentary from someone who has forgotten more about law enforcement than most of us will ever know, Sheriff David Clarke. It’s a 5 minute video from Megyn Kelly’s show where he comments on major leaders (Obama, Holder, DeBlasio) lack of leadership on the racial issues. The money remarks (IMHO) that corroborate my belief that you don’t confront a police officer come after the 4:42 mark. But the whole video is very much worth viewing. This man is an emerging voice for sanity on racial issues.
http://insider.foxnews.com/2014/12/04/sheriff-clarke-blasts-de-blasios-irresponsible-rhetoric
JJ,
Ok, what Garner did was illegal in NYC, I get that. But it should not, in a sane society, warrant an arrest. A citation and a notice to appear at court was all that the situation required. All Garner did was resale items he had already purchased. Ever had a garage sale or sold something on line or through an ad in the paper and neglected to tithe the state/local sales tax? Should that make you a criminal subjected to arrest and carted away in hand cuffs? Of course Garner was stupid to resist arrest, but police must be held to the same standards that apply to you and me.
Again, this was not a situation that required anything more than a citation. Btw, doesn’t NYC have more pressing crime problems than requiring 4-5 cops to arrest someone selling individual cigarettes on the street.
As a peasant defending me and mine, I am held to a standard that differs than what agents of the state (local/state/fed) are held to. I do not question what happened in Ferguson. I do question what happened in Staten Island. And so should all who dare don a ‘conservative’ mantle. Agents of the state should be held to the same standards when deadly force is involved as we peasants. The Garner incident does not pass my smell test.
parker: “Ok, what Garner did was illegal in NYC, I get that. But it should not, in a sane society, warrant an arrest. A citation and a notice to appear at court was all that the situation required. All Garner did was resale items he had already purchased. Ever had a garage sale or sold something on line or through an ad in the paper and neglected to tithe the state/local sales tax?”
I agree that the law is stupid, but it is typical of the type of thing the liberal city council and mayor in New York City foist on their citizens. They tax the beejeebers out of cigarettes resulting in a black market. Then they instruct their police to enforce the law against untaxed cigarettes. The police were operating on complaints from the businesses in front of which Garner was selling. Apparently he wasn’t being a smooth, smart salesman, but was scaring business away from the places that complained.
Listen to any number of experienced policemen. The video looks horrific to the average citizen. To experienced cops it looks like a normal takedown that they have participated in themselves.
That Eric Garner died is a tragedy. No doubt about that. Especially for a non-violent, low level crime. Should the police have just forgotten about this low level beef? When do the police get to decide which laws to enforce? They are not Kings like our President.
When police have to ask themselves in the heat of battle if they are being too rough or worry about getting charged with being insensitive to race, what is going to happen? My guess is more crime, and more difficulty in recruiting policemen.
Being a mostly law abiding citizen, 🙂 I have had little contact with police. Mostly traffic stops. A couple of those have been by overbearing, self -important jerks, but by and large they have been businesslike and just doing their job. If they ask you for your license and registration, and you tell them to F##k off, I can guarantee you it’s not going to end well. It might ruin your whole day. All for a low-level, non-violent crime.
One other piece of information about the Garner case is that he didn’t die at the scene as implied by the video.
“Garner died of cardiac arrest en route to the hospital.” It appears that the EMS workers who picked Garner up didn’t do a very good job of treating him at the scene. For more details see this:
http://nypost.com/2014/07/20/4-ems-workers-barred-from-duty-after-chokehold-death/
The death might have been prevented by proper procedures at the pick up point. Another fact that may have influenced the grand jury.
JJ,
I hear you, and understand your pov.. That does not make you correct. 😉
J.J.-
“The video looks horrific to the average citizen. To experienced cops it looks like a normal takedown that they participated in themselves.”
Not quite. Now you sound like you are just carrying water for them. The presence of the choke hold changes things. Choke holds are dangerous and almost universally forbidden by most agency guidelines. I would be disciplined, death or no death, should I ever do such a thing.
Another thing that I haven’t seen much mention of is the appearance of the officers initiating the arrest:
It’s thug like. Long shorts, t-shirts, tattoos, ball caps. Not wearing a police uniform. Not even professional attire like an investigator. Not so much as a Polo shirt. I assume they wore their shield on the belt or a chain, since their weapons were displayed. But I can’t be sure from the video.
That matters to me. Why?
Imagine you are told that you are under arrest by two men that look like gang members, albeit not flying their colors. Would you be cooperative? Would you at least wonder?
There is a reason cops should look professional. It automatically increases the amount of respect their directives are given. It increases their “presence” which can diffuse many a situation without violence or arrest.
I know I might resist if two men like the initial officers attempted to arrest me. I might doubt their authenticity.
We should be expecting more from the police, not less.
Jim Sullivan: my agency is taught “carotid restraint” — which can look like a “choke hold”. Not for nothing — just because you’re not aware of it, it doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You’d probably be appalled by our use of deadly force policy.
People need to realize, and I’m surprised that some don’t — the medical condition etc, while they may be contributing factors to the death, the responding officers more than likely did not know of this — and even if they did, the fact is — Garner was BREAKING THE LAW, and on top of that HE RESISTED POLICE COMMANDS. As Bratton said when this incident occurred — “There is no constitutional right to resist arrest”
Jim Sullivan, you say you’re an DT instructor — I don’t know if you’re doing that as collateral duty, or full time — I’m disappointed to hear your comments against the officers — you sound like maybe you haven’t worked the road in a while. If you have nothing good to say, don’t say it — especially in mixed company. If you want to second guess the officer’s actions, do it in the team room with your mates, not in an open forum. Its disappointing to have to remind folks of this.
You, as a citizen, are not allowed to resist arrest even if the SWAT have been given an execution order against the wrong house and the wrong people. Resisting arrest there is fatal.
The idea of the police is that they are somehow handling policies in house. In reality, the police unions control them. They aren’t handling anything. They are told what to do, and they do it, not by the law, but by their true masters. Corruption then naturally results due to incompetence, since most of the funding is going to union bosses and Democrat politicians.
Resisting police is always a bad idea. If you should happen to win the encounter, you will be hunted down. If you lose, you will either be injured or in the morgue. There is no way to win except in court.
That sounds a lot more like what a slave would think about their master, than what any proper citizen or warrior would think of their duties in a community.
The whip lash effect is already there, although not always for the same reasons.
rubber-ducky-
The technique, as applied in the beginning of the video is the type of restraint you speak of. But later in the video, when Garner is down, it is a choke hold. Watch the video again. It’s a seatbelt restraint at first but the officer switches his grip later into a choke.
And I am aware of the NYS Penal law, regarding the use of deadly force. Thank you.
And if you are disappointed, that is your problem. And we wonder why people’s trust in the authority of LEO’s is waning? Really?
My, how patronizing.
It appears Garner knew these were cops when he started carrying on about always being harassed.
I did a little judo and stuff long ago, plus what the Army had to teach. There are a couple of holds where the throat is, in effect, in the open space provided by the bend in the elbow joint. The pressure is on one side or both sides of the neck, but necessarily–due to the conformation of the arm–there is no pressure on the throat/larynx. In the video, it appears both ways at different times.
I think this story has been narrowed down too much to having to listen to police. The greater problem is that far too many people have been raised to show no respect to anyone. Do kids listen to their teachers when they are told to get back in their seats? Do rappers ever get called out for calling girls whores? Do we have any info on Gerner’s loosies business? If the cigarette tax was dropped, would he have moved on to selling pot or meth? There is a larger underlying problem in parts of our society that gives status to in-your-face people.
When I look at Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown, I see people who were doomed to be victims of something because there lives had been narrowed to street creds. Were they ever taught to find happiness and satisfaction in real achievements, or would that have been acting white? There are probably many more like them who will end up a unemployed baby daddies and dope dealers because no one will try to show them a better way. BTW, that has to start at the toddler stage.
So if I tell a cop who is trying to subdue me for resisting arrest that I can’t breathe, they should let up immediately? I mean – how many times to cops hear ‘you’re hurting me’, ‘I can’t breathe’, etc? Whenever I watch a cop show I see it.
If he had ‘allowed’ himself to be arrested, he’d be alive today. It’s not like they beat him with clubs because he bumped into one of them on accident.
FWIW, the extreme taxation is going to cause black markets. I certainly wouldn’t attempt a citizen’s arrest (in fact I’d probably serve as a look-out if I was passing by). It’s just like speeding – don’t complain if you get in trouble for it. You know when you are breaking the law.
Jim Sullivan: “Not quite. Now you sound like you are just carrying water for them.”
Well, if that means I sound pro-police, you are absolutely correct.
Many police forces have vice squads that don’t wear regular uniforms. My neighbor, the retired cop, worked vice for 15 years. Most of the time he was dressed just like a drug dealer. It’s called camouflage or playing a role. It’s SOP in big cities with drug problems. My assumption is that these cops were part of the vice squad. Selling illegal drugs and “loosies” would fall under their purview. Too many people are looking at this as the cops picking on some regular citizen. Garner was not a regular citizen. He was a small time hoodlum with 31 crimes on his rap sheet. He refused to do what they police asked him to do.
I knew a young man who was bi-polar. He went off his meds and was acting out – spraying gasoline on people at a gas station. When the police arrived and told him to put the gas hose down, he didn’t obey. Instead he sprayed them. They took him down with extreme prejudice. They messed him up pretty bad. Many bruises, contusions, and a torn rotator cuff were the result. It was, IMO, too much force. I went to the police department to complain about that. Since I had no legal standing they didn’t have to listen to me, but I had a long conversation with the assistant chief. He pointed out to me that the officers have no way of knowing who is dangerous and who isn’t. He cited several cases where policemen had been loathe to use enough force that ended badly for the cops. Their goal is to come home every night. You have to put yourself in their shoes, I think. They are out there doing a very dirty, thankless job. The only time they get much recognition is when things go wrong. Both officers Wilson and Pantaleo’s futures have been ruined because they met up with perps who resisted arrest and ended up dead. I do not believe for one minute that either of them were looking to kill anyone the day they went on duty.
I don’t know why it’s so difficult for people to get the message. We give police the job of keeping crime under control. We train them to use force – as much as need be to carry out their duty. Their instructions to any suspects have the force of law. “Give me your license and registration,” is a lawful command in a simple traffic stop. “You’re under arrest!” is a lawful command when a the police have reason to arrest you. Obey their commands. If they abuse their authority, make a complaint through official channels or sue. Do not try to take them on in a physical confrontation.
Jim Sullivan: “The presence of the choke hold changes things.”
You are correct. And a jury will undoubtedly see it the way you see it. The Garner family, though they have lost a husband and father, have probably hit the financial jackpot. New York City will probably settle the coming law suit for a few million dollars.
On the other hand, Pantaleo will probably lose his job and never work in law enforcement again. Punishment enough? Only God knows that answer.
Ymarsakar: “That sounds a lot more like what a slave would think about their master, than what any proper citizen or warrior would think of their duties in a community.”
We hire the police to protect us from criminals. If we don’t allow them to do their jobs (and they will do them imperfectly because they are just like all the rest of us – deeply flawed) what is to stand between us and the law of the jungle?
Go ahead and do things your way. I intend to continue to obey any commands I get from police I might encounter. To each his own.
Civilization is a set of moral rules that people are supposed to follow EVEN when they comit a crime.
Garner was comitting a minor crime and was resisting arrest, but he was doing it in a pacific and non aggressive way. Even he can be considered a criminal, he behaved in a civilized way. Both things are compatible.
He deserved to be treated in a very different way. He deserved to be listened when he said the couldn´t breath. And he deserved that because he behaved pacifically the whole time. This is what civilization is about.
This guy was not Michael Brown. This guy was indeed the opposite of Michael Brown. Both cases couldn´t be more different.
Wait what? Garner was a criminal, with a criminal history. Why should I ‘take up Garner’s case’? He was a thug, violating a law the city council passed. If anyone needs to be blamed for this incident, let’s point out the city council which passes stupid laws in the first place. Remember, the whole point of the law against selling ‘loosies’ is that the city does not get tax revenue from such sales and all levels of government get quite prickly when they lose tax revenue. (See The Whiskey Rebellion of 1791.)
On top of that, the tax-paying store owner called the cops because Garner was harassing/intimidating his customers. Should the police ignore such a complaint from a tax-paying business owner in favor of the entrepreneurial, but non-tax paying, Garner?
Tray-B-Gone, ‘The Gentle Giant’ and now Garner. All thugs. All got justice (though not the justice they thought they deserved). There are lessons to be learned from these cases, but not ones the black community is apparently ready to heed. Much easier to blame whitey for one’s own stupidity.
(I wrote my post before I read J.J.’s comments, which are spot on.)
Hired? The police are not hired by the citizens. You do not know your Place when speaking of such.
http://www.copblock.org/
The idea that they are your employees or protectors, goes against the common logic. I can fire my employees and I can pay someone else to protect me. Against a gov monopoly or a mafia, that’s not so easy.
There’s a big difference between a slave obeying the master because of fear of the consequences, and a person saying that the slave was born to obey a rightful master, that this is the CORRECT way of life.
It is not the correct way of life for citizens and people are deluded when they continue this farce.
Tray-B-Gone, ‘The Gentle Giant’ and now Garner. All thugs. All got justice (though not the justice they thought they deserved).
It is basically the Sunnis vs the Shia. Why take one side over the other? Because one is cheaper?
what is to stand between us and the law of the jungle?
In human history, slaves and serfs has always wondered how people can live without their masters. And yet they continue to do so.
When you continue your path, it requires the deception that you are free, that you are a free citizen with duties and responsibilities. Police, when promoted to aristocrats and masters, will not treat you as equals because you don’t treat them as equals nor do you expect it from them.
Continuing to think that this fashion of life is correct, is why a slave is a slave, a serf is a serf.
Does anyone understand why the officers who “burked” (possible asphyxiation) Eric Gardner were not charged, but the officer who used the so called “choke hold” was? (So called because the pathologists on CNN went to great pains to emphasize that the windpipe was not compressed and air was not cut off by the hold. Rather, per the pathologists, the “choke hold” compressed the jugulars, causing pressure to build up in the brain). So did Mr Gardner die of asphyxiation, due to burking, or cerebral hemorrhage, due to compression of the jugulars, or both? Or did one or the other or both of these compression events lead to a heart attack? Is that why the Grand Jury did not return an indictment?