The news du jour: the Gianforte body slam
I figure I ought to cover this story.
It’s the lead story at memeorandum and plenty of other places. The gist of it is that Montana Republican US House of Representatives candidate Greg Gianforte is reported to have body-slammed Guardian reporter Ben Jacobs. There were three Fox News reporters witnessing the incident (one of whom has slightly changed her story to make the assault a bit less violent), and Gianforte has been charged with misdemeanor assault.
I can’t muster up too much to say about it, though, except the obvious. No footage seems to exist (which is odd because there’s footage of just about everything these days, and several reporters were present). Footage would be very important in evaluating any alleged assault, as we’ve learned many past experiences, because eyewitness testimony is inhernetly unreliable. That said, it certainly looks as though Gianforte snapped and was way out of line.
Reporters can be and often are obnoxious and intrusive and even invasive (of space, and of boundaries). But Gianforte is a candidate. If you can’t stand the heat, get out of the kitchen before you reach the boiling point.
One reason I would never run for office. I have a rather low boiling point.
Nothing but admiration for those who can handle the obnoxious, ill-mannered, aggressive progressives with bylines.
Yep, it looks bad for Gianforte. Me, I’m willing to give him a bit slack, as many of these reporters are pushing it just too far.
The guy is probably exhausted and he snapped. Cut him some slack.
What about all the intentional violence by DNC plants at Trump rallies? And the riot in Chicago?
I meet a Brit reporter at a Trump rally. Paul, I think from the Guardian. Great guy.
Gianforte is running against a great slimeball of a Democrat, a truly disgusting person.
Probably neither should be in the race, but, hey, it’s Montana, a formerly rural conservative state, the western half of which is now overrun by Angelino libs with goofy pseudo-religious notions like crystals. Just like northern NM. The libs with their perversions seem able to take over beautiful places from the locals, like bad money driving out good. Asheville NC, Provincetown, Martha’s Vineyard, Key West, the Hamptons, the Outer Banks, and western MT among them.
Eastern MT is safe from them. Just prairies. Boring; but great sharptail grouse hunting.
Political candidates must always have good manners when set upon by mannerless, rude, ignorant “reporters”. Not even a bull in the ring has to behave nicely when set upon by picadors.
“What about all the intentional violence by DNC plants at Trump rallies? And the riot in Chicago?”
We’ll, he is running for office. If a Democrat roughed up a Fox news reporter…
Evidently there is an audio recording of the altercation.
There are places where *not* responding would render a man unfit for office. I expect some in Montana might see it that way, same with Wyoming.
One question I have – if this was an assault that took place, then why is the reporter “reporting” it on twitter instead of contacting the police?
Charles
The candidate has been charged with misdemeanor assault.
Chuck
I’m guessing there is a not insignificant voting block in Montana that will view pushing a reporter to the ground and a feature, not a bug
*as* a feature
The MSM are not journalists, they are propagandists. Their incessant propaganda presented as factual reportage forfeits the courtesies and protections journalists previously deserved.
I defy anyone to watch the movie “Die Hard” and not cheer when Holly McClane punches out the criminally negligent ‘reporter’.
I realize it’s just a movie but the sentiment is genuine. Previous generation’s reaction would have been to schrug indifferently and say, “he had it coming”.
The point being they’ve got it coming and allowing these propagandists to continue to get away with it is condoning the erasure of the American Republic.
I for one have run out of extending civility to swine who neither appreciate it or are capable of recognizing the humanity of those they label “deplorable irredeemables”.
“Their incessant propaganda presented as factual reportage forfeits the courtesies and protections journalists previously deserved.”
So, the first amendment, basic protections of civil society, all that…. Out The window?
We can assault reporters who don’t report the news the way we’d like?
What are the implications of this, GB? Am I misrepresenting your point?
Geoffrey Britain:
“They’ve got it coming”?
So you think it’s okay for a candidate to assault an obnoxious reporter who’s pestering him? That’s how I read your remark.
My take: it’s a good start, but he quit too soon.
Beating up reporters you don’t like is something fascists do.
Trimegistus:
I ask you the same question I asked Geoffrey: do you think it’s okay for a candidate to assault an obnoxious reporter who’s pestering him?
I’m with Bill (above) on this.
And it’s not like the “propaganda” is working. Republicans control all three branches plus a ton of state houses now.
Trump’s GOP, the party of sore winners. I’ve never seen such whining by a group of people who won. In my life.
Sorry for coming kind of hard on this. But I still believe in a free press and I think it is absolutely necessary.
Geoffrey Britain:
And by the way, there’s a big difference between “extending civility” to a reporter and expecting that a reporter not be physically assaulted.
Geoffrey Britain:
And do you really think that previous generations would have reacted to such an assault on a reporter by a candidate by schrugging indifferently and saying, “he had it coming”?
I certainly don’t think so—not unless the reporter had assaulted the candidate physically first.
Bill:
There were many, many sore winners on the Obama side after both of his victories. Many. Sore winners are the new thing.
I wouldn’t call the current phenomenon “sore winners,” though. Nor would I call it “whining.” I think it comes from people who sense that the left is still winning, despite the current GOP victories, and that the latter are only temporary. Thus the anger at a reporter from the Guardian and the claims that he deserves it, without even knowing the circumstances except that the assault certainly looks unreasonable and thuggish by all reports. There is a desire to lash out and excuse what doesn’t seem excusable at the moment.
Actually, the way I am reading this is that the invasive reporter came into an area where he was requested to leave. He then invaded the candidates space pushing a phone into his face. When he was pushed away he shoved it back and the candidate grabbed the arm and shoved the heck out of the reporter and broke his glasses. If this is what happened it might work out that the reporter should have, could have been arrested for trespassing.
If it were in Texas I think Gianforte would walk on the charges at this time I don’t know about Montana where both sides have spent millions of dollars and the national media have made this an anti-Trump election. I guess we will know in a few hours if more Republicans turned out to approve slamming down a reporter or not.
OldTexan:
That’s the report from the Gianforte side. I suppose it’s possible that it might be true. But the report of the (supposedly neutral) witnesses, Fox News reporters, is quite different. It includes a much more aggressive Gianforte who repeatedly punched Jacobs when the latter was down:
“Faith, Keith and I watched in disbelief as Gianforte then began punching the reporter.”
That’s the important part as far as I’m concerned. Jacobs might have fallen by accident in the scuffle, but the punching cannot be explained as innocuous, and punching is what the witness reported.
> So you think it’s okay for a candidate to assault an obnoxious reporter who’s pestering him?
Given the description of Jacobs’ behavior, I think Gianforte would have been perfectly justified to have clocked him, or indeed, to attempt to grab the camera resulting in a tussle where Jacobs went down. The question for me is if the alleged assault went further, as claimed by the reporters, or not, as claimed by Gianforte. It is certainly possible that the reporters don’t know what they saw, and also possible that Gianforte is lying. I do think that if Jacobs was choked and repeatedly punched as claimed, then there would be physical evidence of that.
What time do the polls close?
Step by step we approach Ft. Sumpter.
!st Amendment preserves and protects the freedom to print.
Not the freedom to be obnoxious, rude, in-your-face. A free press has the same limits on personal freedoms as anyone else. They are the classic “give them an inch and they’ll take a mile”.
Security be damned. Print the Pentagon Papers. Let’s print the leaks of classified info as is done today. The press has seized its freedoms and inflated them without the consent of We The People. And yes, a prior Supreme Court with some rotten apples in its barrel has facilitated that. Does not make it right.
Well, I knew that would raise some ire and honestly, my first reaction was to think “no, this is unacceptable” too. And in a society where the opposition is the “loyal opposition” it is entirely unacceptable. But that is no longer the society we live in.
He’s not a ‘reporter’. He’s a leftist or a liberal stooge who is abetting the destruction of Western Civilization.
These are NOT modern versions of Edward R Murrow that we are dealing with… these are modern versions of ‘Tokyo Rose’ pretending to be Edward R Murrow…
And insisting that we play by the rules while the other side has upended the board’s pieces onto the floor is simply clinging to a past that no longer exists.
Wake up people. The GOPe’s actions demonstrate that they are not interested in stopping our March to the Collective, they’re just slowing it down, while claiming it’s the best they can do. Just as they’ve done all along. It’s way past time to stop blaming Lucy for pulling the ball away and look at Charlie Brown who keeps falling for it.
The Left has declared war and no amount of denial will change the reality we face. If they drive Trump from office or just geld him and regain the Presidency in 2020, they will never again relinquish it.
Where is the video of this bruhaha? Everything is on video these days. No one knows what exactly happened, perhaps not even those in the room. From my limited experience (a few friends in MT that I stay in touch with) this incident will change no or very few votes. Big Sky ‘progressive’ populism is a real thing, but outside of a few areas its appeal is limited.
There is a saying in MT: By law the legislature must meet for 90 days every 2 years. A better idea is the legislature must meet for 2 days every 90 years. We’ll see later tonight how this incident swings the votes.
Well, GB, I’m sure you’ll have lots of willing company in your quest to silence the media by any means necessary, including violence.
Count me out. I’m going to stand with people who believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law versus mob rule.
I really, really hate the new GOP and Trumpism.
I’m disappointed in myself for not being more upset. I like to think I have a neutral view of such things. Violence in such a situation is wrong. But in law, there is a continuum from no excuse to justified and somewhere in there are such invasive actions.
> I’m going to stand with people who believe in freedom of speech and the rule of law versus mob rule.
And no doubt you will succeed because of your good thoughts. Or did you have some idea that perhaps such things would need to be fought for?
Chuck – I don’t get your point.
Are you going to fight for freedom of speech by encouraging violence against those who are engaged in speech you don’t like?
I may be misunderstanding you. But I hear a lot of “we have to burn the village down to save it” talk from Trump supporters these days.
The first amendment is the FIRST amendment for a reason. One the through the looking glass experiences I’ve had in the age of Trump is arguing with people that I used to have a lot in common with about fundamentally conservative notions like principled support for the first amendment.
This is really not even tangential, except insofar as the altercation echoes much of what’s happening in academia,
but I hate for anyone to miss a really good piece of satire.
https://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2017/03/send-your-children-to-middlebury-college
> by encouraging violence against those who are engaged in speech you don’t like?
What does that have to do with this incident? The reporter trespassed, invaded personal space, was obnoxious, and clearly had a political agenda. The fact that he was a reporter is irrelevant. If you act an asshole, then eventually someone is going to punch your lights out. I don’t see that as a free speech issue, I see that as a civility issue. And a good thing, otherwise the world would be overrun with assholes.
A fellow I knew told how, when he was in highschool, he and his buddy worked at a casino in Vegas one summer and one day they were going up the stairs and a hot young lady was coming down. Being young and stupid, they were a bit too loud in expressing their admiration. Turns out the young lady’s father was following her down and he wasted not a second before he punched the buddy in the stomach and bent him over. Then continued on down as if nothing had happened. The fellow told me this story with apparent admiration for the father, who he felt had done the right thing. That too, was not a free speech thing, it was a civility thing. And a teaching moment.
What is the first amendment issue that a person can trespass, badger and invade personal space. I don’t think anyone was tell the reporter what he could or could not say. It will be fun to see how this plays out this evening.
And yes, punching a person once they are down is not really a good thing however a good Texas lawyer might be able to prove a reporter needed just a bit of encouragement to go away, in the heat of the moment. Kind of like hockey players at time need to let off steam.
And whether one likes our president or not should not have any bearing on the right or wrong of the action. Bearing on the election, sure but that’s it. Anyway the returns will be in soon enough and it will be what it will be.
Chuck, I was referring to the general indictment GB was leveling against the MSM as propagandists no longer worthy of constitutional protection.
As for this incident, do you have access to info we don’t? I don’t know what the guy did but the eyewitness accounts thus far don’t support your version.
I’m speaking specifically about calls to remove protections for a free press. I’m not quarreling with you about the dad who punched the guy being obnoxious to his daughter (I’ve a dad to two daughters myself).
If it turns out that the Montana candidate was just pushing away someone being physically obnoxious, depending on the details I’ll probably be right there with you. If he body slammed him because he didn’t like the line of questioning or didn’t like having a phone in his face he probably needs to find another line of work.
So, again – I’m against general calls to limit freedom of the press. I think they are dangerous. And I notice they are always accompanied by apocalyptic visions of the end of our country if we don’t actively remove one of the key protections that makes our country beautiful.
As I said, count me out.
Bill,
I will respect the 1st amendment rights of those who respect my 1st amendment rights. If someone steps all over my 1st amendment rights, they forfeit any claim to such a right.
If someone punches me in the mouth, I’m going to punch them in the mouth back. I’ll not throw the first punch but I’ll do my best to throw the last punch. Turning the other cheek is wasted on those who deny our humanity. Someone who claims a right they deny others has exchanged their own humanity for an ideological idol upon an altar at which they worship.
I will not extend to them a right that they deny to me. Not when the object of their denial is my enslavement at the altar at which they worship.
They’re running around the country cutting down all the laws, while you insist we preserve the law schools where they teach how to most cunningly cut down the laws.
Ok, GB, I’ll bite. What freedom of speech rights are you being denied by our press?
Regarding punching someone in the mouth if they punch you first. We’ll, of course. That’s not the same as curtailing the freedom of the press through violence.
And, yeah, I’m not for shutting law schools down either.
Who gets to decide who in the press can no longer ply their trade? Who gets to decide who gets to be a lawyer.
You have the Presidency, Congress, and the courts. Most likely the state you live in is GOP controlled.
Maybe you have enough to work with to change things before we start dismantling our civil and constitutional order
I believe Montani ns will vote Thiss guy in, they called off Berghdaks homecoming party real fast when they needed to.Practical people.
I don’t approve of “assault” per se, but . . .
Actions should have consequences. Being an ass and needling someone should carry the risk of a fist to the face. Call it the Buzz Aldrin Rule.
Note that this was more or less universal a generation ago.
Right now there are literally no consequences for a reporter being an ass. That needs to change.
Bill,
Believe it or not, I too am against limiting the free press.
But… what free press? They are agents for an agenda that seeks to subsume liberty under a tyrannical political correctness. One in which freedom of speech is limited to the current whim of the liberal/leftist mob.
That ‘free’ press champions the end of liberty and disingenuously calls it ending ‘hate speech’. They have a perfect right to believe and say what they will, they do not have a right to engage in sedition, which is what their yammering lies now amount to. As just one example, the NYT is continually publishing political assassination pieces and at the end of the piece printing a brief disclaimer that “no evidence has yet emerged in support of these charges”…
Every night, the national broadcast media does the same thing. That’s not a free press dedicated to objective reportage, that’s deceitful propaganda.
Bill,
“What freedom of speech rights are you being denied by our press?”
That press has been formative in fomenting a climate where none of us can go on any campus in America, speak our mind in a calm manner and not be shouted down and even assaulted. Academia sets the stage but the Pravda media are the 24/7 cheerleaders, ‘brainwashing’ the public with their obfuscations and lies.
“And, yeah, I’m not for shutting law schools down either.”
Any law school that teaches that the Constitution is a “living document” which can be interpreted to mean whatever is wished is not a law school but a school for seditionists.
Is that not exactly what your ‘free press’ and ‘law schools’ are doing?
GB,
Maybe our press does suck.
But we don’t have (to my knowledge) the alien and sedition acts on the books anymore.
The first amendment doesn’t have an exception for people we disagree with.
I think there are other ways to fix the problem.
On a side note – it was ironic earlier when you mentioned the reporter in die hard. One thing that made him obnoxious is he threatened to call the INS on John’s wife’s illegal maid if she didn’t cooperate. Probably a Trump voter 🙂
Regarding sedition – putting physical beat downs on the press because they don’t report the way you’d like is also sedition.
In the current ends justify the means world of the modern GOP we have to be careful we don’t sacrifice the very thing we claim to be fighting for.
Why all of this talk about the first amendment?
The first amendment prohibits government interference in free speech. Gianforte’s incident has nothing to do with government interference in anything?
T,
I started out on my comments based on GBs comment now far above in the thread
“The MSM are not journalists, they are propagandists. Their incessant propaganda presented as factual reportage forfeits the courtesies and protections journalists previously deserved.”
Now GB can explain in more detail what he meant but I zeroed in on the assertions that the MSM no longer deserves “protections”.
You are correct, of course, that punching a reporter isn’t a violation of the first amendment. Now, if it becomes something that current power holders are championing we’re into dangerous territory. You tell me how much our current President champions the principle of a free press.
Finally – there is a general principle of honoring freedom of speech that aligns with the spirit of the first amendment that I’d like to see more of in conservative circles. The old classical liberal “I might disagree with what you say but I’ll fight to the death for your right to say it.”
“You are correct, of course, that punching a reporter isn’t a violation of the first amendment.”
I want to clarify. A private citizen doing that isn’t violating free speech in the most legalistic sense – it is simply assault.
A government official (which this guy claims to want to be) is another thing entirely.
Bill,
Ok I’ll bite 😉
Is a committed propagandist that lies and obfuscates to advance a seditionist agenda… a ‘reporter’? Please answer that specific question.
Were Saul Alinsky still alive and given a front page column on the NYT ‘reporting the news’ be a reporter? Or a propagandist pretending to be a reporter?
Sedition is rampant regardless of the fact that the alien and sedition acts are not on the books anymore. An Act of Congress doesn’t establish sedition. Rampant sedition establishes the need for a corrective Act. Otherwise you’re praying that it will die on the vine. Which as execrable a candidate as Hillary receiving half the votes disproves.
Disagreement is NOT the issue. Incessant lying and near total control of the means of dissemination of information to the public, while hiding behind constitutional protections that they are dedicated to erasing is the issue.
And blogs like this and “hate sites’ like Drudge are highly limited organs of dissemination of information to the public.
I’m all ears, please illustrate those “other ways to fix the problem”.
John’s wife’s did not punch out the reporter over her maid. She punched him out because his unrepentant and intentional actions revealed to Hans Gruber her connection to McClane and imperiled her and John’s lives.
I’m all for not sacrificing the very thing we claim to be fighting for… unfortunately, they sacrificed what we’re fighting for long ago. You can’t save a marriage that one person has walked away from… once the bridge is burned there’s no walking back across it.
The “resistance” is burning the bridge. Obama doing all he can to undermine his successor is burning the bridge. Schumer has burned the bridge. Would that it were not so.
“I’m all ears, please illustrate those “other ways to fix the problem”.
A few ideas
– quit panicking
– continue winning elections
– elect good people
– stay true to conservative, constitutional principles. They are precious. Avoid the temptation to jettison them
– watch out for demagogues trying to stir up the masses
– quit whining (directed at the entire GOP). No one likes or respects a whiner
– expand the reach of the party beyond white people.
– reject Alinskyism in all its forms
– believe in what you believe in. The GOP quit believing in what they were supposed to believe in. That’s one reason we’re where we are
– treat others the way you’d like to be treated
These are just off the top of my head.
BIll,
I fully support, “I might disagree with what you say but I’ll fight to the death for your right to say it.” No one here is stating that people shouldn’t have the right to say what they wish.
I am saying that the MSM’s abuse of its fifth estate status has become active sedition. No state can long survive unfettered sedition that promulgates untruths, while protected from accountability and lawful consequence.
“You are correct, of course, that punching a reporter isn’t a violation of the first amendment. Now, if it becomes something that current power holders are championing we’re into dangerous territory.” [Bill @ 10:42]
Well, just remember it wasn’t anyone in the Trump administration who said: “. . . punch back twice as hard.”
I’m with GB, where the rubber meets the road, not in hi-faluting Fairyland.
GB’s is a very reasoned and reasonable reaction, not like BS about standing up against Alinsky, when Alinsky methods surround us every day.
The ENTIRE affair was a provocation.
That’s why the videos are not already everywhere.
It’s a put-up operation.
No-one is so stoic as to tolerate everything.
No-one.
Bill,
You are a concern troll.
We get that.
“— quit panicking”
i.e. nothing to see here, move along.
“— continue winning elections”
Demographics make a mockery of that ‘solution’
“— elect good people”
Poll after poll shows that the overwhelming % of voters are happy with their representative…
“— stay true to conservative, constitutional principles”
I’m all for restoring them, which you will not do while pretending that the majority embrace them.
“— watch out for demagogues trying to stir up the masses”
We all here KNEW that Obama was a demagogue, “watching out” did nothing.
“— quit whining”
Telling you that things are much more serious than you wish to believe is NOT whining but we understand that labeling it as such is necessary to staying in lala land.
“— expand the reach of the party beyond white people”
That’s more insulting than most. Insisting that conservative principles like the rule of law, limited government, the necessity of an education, development of a strong work ethic, acceptance of personal responsibility, recognition of parental and familial obligations and delaying gratification while living within ones means… you know those conservative principles… are what’s keeping non-whites from joining and expanding “the reach of the party beyond white people”.
We’ve been saying that those are the keys to socioeconomic success all along and statistics support that assertion. The only way you’re going to “expand the reach of the party beyond white people” is by abandoning those principles because the people you wish to reach have either already rejected those principles (high black crime and incarceration rates are whiteys fault) or like the Asians, wish to increase their tribe’s power.
Stop assuming that the people you wish to reach are too stupid to know what they’re doing and that if we only explained it better they’d realize we’ve got the better way.
“— reject Alinskyism in all its forms”
Talk to Eric about that, while explaining how to fight fire without fire.
Today’s GOP NEVER believed in what they were supposed to believe in… That’s a big part of why we’re where we’re at.
“— treat others the way you’d like to be treated”
That is the way to treat those who treat you as they wish to be treated. That is not the way to treat those who demonstrate the opposite.
To treat others the way you’d like to be treated who do not reciprocate out of an ideological agenda they seek to impose is to make of oneself a punching bag. And such as they will never tire of the ‘sport’. As it’s what they live for, the domination of other people. Many cover up that motivation with the rationalization that it’s for your own good.
Montana ain’t for amateurs. If you check your common courtesy at the door. expect to get knocked on your ass. Doesn’t have anything to do with free speech.
Gianforte won.
Decision Desk is calling it for Gianforte.
Frog:
Bill isn’t any kind of troll, concern or otherwise.
Usually I’m on Bill’s side if he’s talking about Trump, but not here. The provocations of the left, their resort to violence, their control of the press, and their level of incivility since the election has finally got them an appropriate, if tiny response. This isn’t the event that will mark any kind of armed rebellion, but it is a step in that direction.
I fully understood what GB and others did in voting for Trump, even though I thought it a wasted effort. It was a last chance at delaying or stopping the inevitable. I don’t know what the specific event will be, or when, but the political and cultural division in this country is about to explode.
Dennis,
We were all Montanans once.
The race appears to be decided.
GB, we’re not going to agree on demographics, ever, I think. But this I don’t get:
“The only way you’re going to “expand the reach of the party beyond white people” is by abandoning those principles because the people you wish to reach have either already rejected those principles (high black crime and incarceration rates are whiteys fault) or like the Asians, wish to increase their tribe’s power.”
I believe you are a good person, reasonable and intelligent. But how is this not racism? To believe that people’s ethnicity prevents them from being conservative seems to me the definition. Plenty of Hispanics are. Very conservative socially, have a high work ethic (even at menial jobs) and havr high values around families. And I don’t get the comment about Asians. The fact that they in general kick our behonkuses in math and science and work ethic says more about us than it does about them. We should welcome and rise up to the competition.
I’m sorry to drop that card. But it’s a serious question.
Regarding the MSM. There are two ways you can look at it – you seem to be suggesting a vast, left wing conspiracy of sedition.
How realistic is that? Isn’t Occam’s razor called for here? For whatever reason most reporters vote Democrat, evidently. So there will be irritating and some overt bias. People are human.
But is the CBO part of the conspiracy too? From reports the Guardian reporter wanted to ask about Trumpcare. I haven’t heard the audio yet – maybe he asked a question about the 23 fewer millions insured under the new plan, etc. Maybe he’s tired of being told he’s reporting “fake news” when he’s just trying to do his job. He wanted a reaction, was too aggressive or rude. Maybe he deserved to be pushed down. I assume we’ll find out.
Whatever you want to call that – it’s not sedition (unless you really believe in the vast conspiracy).
Maybe conservatives need to setup some journalism schools.
Neo, thanks.
T
“Well, just remember it wasn’t anyone in the Trump administration who said: “. . . punch back twice as hard.”
No, he said “knock the crap out of them”
I know politics ain’t beanbag.
“The guy is probably exhausted and he snapped. Cut him some slack.” – Cornhead
There’s no video, but there is audio and an apology by the candidate.
Certainly seems there was some level of violence.
.
Based on several comments here, it seems like many find it “justified” largely because the other is a journalist for the other side, being “propagandists” and such.
Folks need to ask themselves, ceteris paribus…
Would you cut him some slack if your neighbor did it to you or someone in your family for similar professed reasons?
Would you cut a dem candidate some slack if it was a “conservative” media journalist?
.
If the journalist was violent and threatening (no evidence – if true, why an apology?), maybe some slack is due.
If the journalist was obnoxious and in your face, well, if you are running for office, are you so naive as to think that won’t be a regular issue for you?
Especially in this escalated environment?
.
The left are all okay with double standards and hypocrisy.
Is that what we here aspire to?
What we think we need to emulate to get our way?
To untie our own hands beyond the limits of the Queensberry Rules, and now into some rules of law?
That playing the same game won’t have its own consequences?
Be honest with yourself rather than calling people names like “concern troll”.
.
In the end, it is not the most pressing thing in the world to obsess over.
It might not even rise to the level of disqualification for a seat in the House. Probably shouldn’t, unless there is more to the story.
But it becomes one more proof point that there is this default , knee jerk red vs blue phenomenon, with each side either over blowing the case, or ignoring / denying / downplaying the case, depending on who the players are in any issue.
This is the fastest way to erode trust and credibility all around.
And that heads to a place we all say we don’t want to be.
Bill – “I really, really hate the new GOP and Trumpism.”
Yeah. We kinda get that.
Big Maq,
Turning the other cheek is always a good idea.
The results, though, can be personally disappointing.
I’ll let you check out the historical consequences when people decide to ignore – or even reward – the violent behavior of others for various reasons.
All actions have consequences. Doing nothing is also an action that may have consequences.
Please realize I am not advocating any particular response.
However, people should be aware that even if they ignore what is happening around them they are still affected by what is happening around them.
Reporters can be and often are obnoxious and intrusive and even invasive (of space, and of boundaries)….
from myself and other honest photojournalists of the international corps…
thanks…
would you prefer they are very polite and not seek the story that the person under glass doesnt want known?
however, no one with class and such would barge or act the way others have acted, there is a contingent as there always is, of people who go over the line for advantage… at least in the photog space, we didnt go along..
(but in the debasement expose yourself and complain your watched space of twerking, bras on the outside, exposing breasts, everyone on that bandwagon cause you cant miss out, or somethin – the race to the bottom continues, will they reach Challenger Deep level?)
this is also true of the journalists who decide to cover celebrities… if you havent noticed, TMZ gets their stuff by being nice, talking funny, etc… those are the people who get the stuff, only occaisionally do the aggressive losers win, then once, and unless they do it again, no one wants to work wiht them
also, why would a publicist call them and not me? i did my shots at the public after party for Farrel and the nerd project, then they slipped me an address and said meet us there.. the after after party… showed up, was fun. they asked me why i wasnt taking pics, I said if you want i would but usually i dont in the private parties (so i can go).
its a game… there is a sheet put out that is subscribed to that tells all us horrible people where to go to get the shot and behave horribly as our roles in the kabuki dance… the famous person is to act like we are annoying them… but in truth, their publicist either put them on the list announcing to the industry they would come in on this airport, at this time, on this flight, dont miss the shot… or they call directly, like when they wanted me to get a shot of Marissa Tomei ear.. seems she borrowed some very expensive boutique jewelry… so the jewler hired a publicist who contacted me at 3am to see if i could rush out on expense, get to the museum gala, stand outside, and yell a code word. Marrisa knew the code word and would come to me…
end of a productive night..
heck… there is a GREAT video of me getting a new hole ripped by Heidi Klums dad when she was having the baby.. i have known her for years, Seal was great… but her dad never signed on and the other arses were really giving him a bad time. we were literaly camped out… when i got bored i went around the corner to the other side of the block as thats were lenny kravitz lives.. at some point i was outside, and was talking to seal and dad came buy and decided to really let me have it and it made international TV…
fun… a french photographer hired a prostitute to go over and plant a kiss on dad!!! no freaking way i would le that happen, Heidi has always been good to me!!! i blocked the shot… and the lady… and THATS why i was close enough for dad to single me out…
oh well… thats how things roll…
and the public has no idea that any of this is going on… i will also say, secret service are great guys (and some gals).. and for me and my crew the NYPD and others were great too…
anyway, all the press on trump is bad, and no one is hearing about the unemployment rate being so low that it matches 1988… and tons of other great things… but you would have to look it up as the totalitarian hate is real bad.
washington state had students take over and try to oust a professor who was against the day without whites thing… then there is the burrito store opened by two white women who learned how to make the food in mexico, they closed as that was cultural approrpiation… meaning, only a mexican can earn a living from mexican culture.. not whites.. (boy are the feminists gonna be real suprised as the race groups are yhelling my pu**y aint pink and have discovered the source of the hated men who saved the jews and so have to go just as the dems killed whites who tried to save blacks… its a consistent theme… the rest is all show).
heck…
in a short while it may get real bad
i did say we were copying germany and tried to show it. but we now are on the cusp of a train with no break handle… even the people who orchestrated things could not stop what is coming given what is being allowed under Hegalian processes of push down the presumed dominant and lift up the otehr so that they smash each other…
the race hate of whites is now mainstream, just as the race hate of jews was mainstreamed (and jews are a set in the set)…
Debater At Harvard Says White People Should Kill Themselves
Activist: White People Should Kill Themselves to Atone
How Washingtonians killed a perfectly good burrito cart – two white women dared sell burritos, and were clsoed down for cultural appropriation!
remember, in under 5 years, whomeevr is in college tends to have a higher level job and they been teaching white hate like crazy for a few years now and supressing anyone saying anything as a form of white supremecy.. (i know as i get attacked for being married to my indonesian wife -and where i work the raises are only for protected classes (despite a 5k award, a trophy and more, no raises in 12 years! reserved as we are number 1 in diversity now meeting the voluntary diversity quotas… )
and before you say this isnt from the feminists then do not read about how this all was really started by a woman named peggy mcintosh..
in the 1980s she looked at her life and assumed its always been that way and that what she had been born into was unfair and had to end
White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack by Peggy McIntosh – where she basically came up with 50 examples to show how her being white did all this stuff for her… that was how this got the real go ahead… it then morphed into white male privelege.. which now, is going back to ALL of them, go get the women for making the evil issue.
“White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” and “Some Notes for Facilitators”
“White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” first appeared in Peace and Freedom Magazine, July/August, 1989, pp. 10-12, a publication of the Women’s International League for Peace and Freedom, Philadelphia, PA.
Anyone who wishes to reproduce more than 35 copies of this article must apply to the author, Dr. Peggy McIntosh, at mmcintosh@wellesley.edu
[edited for length by n-n]
@Tuvea – this wasn’t an argument for turning the other cheek.
He could have stood his ground and be assertive.
He could have been just as in your face and obnoxious as he wanted.
That’s all if he thought confrontation was the right move.
But, he went somewhat farther than that, didn’t he?
Sometimes, it is just smarter to disengage or de-escalate and move on to where conditions are better to win hearts and minds, rather than risk charges for some violence.
Not every “challenge” must be won, every hill must be taken in this war of ideas.
Here’s Ahmed-Yacub Zachariah raduating with honors from Yale:
“Please stop telling people how they should be behaving when their very existence is being threatened. Please stop telling people just to listen when half the country literally did not care to listen for months. Please stop suggesting that uncivil behavior has never brought about social change. Please stop denouncing civil disobedience when you’re not worried about having your civil rights taken away from you. This preoccupation with maintaining law and order is ugly. This urgency to delegitimize people’s lived experiences is ugly. Casting protest as mostly violent makes it hard to protect dissent. Displays of decorum will not save people. We’ve tried being peaceful. We’ve tried just listening. That’s not gonna work anymore.”
We’ve had this cultural Cold War for years. Perhaps an honest Civil War looms. It will be ugly, guaranteed, and you will have to accept as allies some real clowns if you’re gonna win.
More from Yale: “Settler colonialism is the pre-existing condition.”
What exactly does this mean? I don’t think it means anything friendly to you or me.
Miklos.
Ahmed is wrong for calling for actions of UNcivil disobedience. Civil disobedience takes patience, but it does work. Go beyond that for too long and you’re 1789 France or 1860 USA all over again (but this time with a lot more firepower).
Unfortunately, calls for that kind of violent dissent are coming strong from both right and left these days. Witness some of the comments in this thread.
Bill,
If we don’t even agree on demographic facts, upon what basis is there for discussion?
I agree that it’s a serious question and one worthy of a reasoned response. Any ethnicity’s culture that neglects or rejects the cultural values of education, development of a strong work ethic, acceptance of personal responsibility, recognition of parental and familial obligations and delaying gratification while living within ones means… is doomed to the degree of failure that culture neglects or rejects those critical cultural values.
Obviously there are individual exceptions but I’m pointing to the cultural values that the majority of that racial group or ethnicity embrace, neglect or reject.
Hispanic culture embraces hard work and recognition of parental and familial obligations. To some degree (unknown) it supports delaying gratification and living within ones means. Hispanic culture neglects education and rejects acceptance of personal responsibility. Evidenced by the common Hispanic expression, “my HAND, MADE me do it!”.
Urban black culture rejects ALL five of those critical cultural values. Their socioeconomic standing reflects that CHOICE. And it IS a choice. Blaming whitey is much easier than looking in the mirror, demonstrated today by black reaction to Sec. Ben Carson’s comment yesterday that, poverty is mostly ‘a state of mind’.
Asian culture embraces all five of the critical values and as a group, do better than whites.
Yet, only a minority of them are conservatives. So how to explain their practice of conservatism but support of liberalism? I see only one explanation; personal and group advantages under liberalism. They can claim victim status whenever it is advantageous to do so. That my friend is a power dynamic. But I’ll happily entertain any alternative explanation you care to offer. And I do welcome and rise up to the competition.
“Regarding the MSM. There are two ways you can look at it — you seem to be suggesting a vast, left wing conspiracy of sedition.”
Please read this short story, check out the graphic and then get back to me on that one.
Some overt bias? It extends so far beyond normal bias as to be obscenely seditious.
It’s not the reporter asking a legitimate question, it’s what they consistently write and publish afterwards that makes it seditious. And that graphic in the link makes that assertion undeniable.
Big Maq,
The violence was unjustified but understandable. Not even you can take unrelenting provocation. If you disagree that the MSM are and have long been acting as propagandists rather than ‘reporters’ then sadly, you are part of the problem.
“White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack” and “Some Notes for Facilitators”…Anyone who wishes to reproduce more than 35 copies of this article must apply to the author, Dr. Peggy McIntosh, at mmcintosh@wellesley.edu
Those at Wellesley who declaim against “white privilege” would be more credible to me if they were to resign from Wellesley and go teach at an adjunct position at Podunk Community College.
Time for Neo’s Favorite Inigo Montoya for those who have been spouting for for several days now about …“The Rule of Law”
In fact I know it does not mean what they seem to think it means.
It applies as a principle to official governance not to the concept of self-help. Obama, violates the rule of law, not some guy who punches out a home invader.
Though we are probably getting to that point where men will be expected to call the police as their wives are being raped before their eyes …
and this from CBD over at Ace of Spades HQ:
“Remember Congressman Etheridge? Probably not, because the Democrat Party protects its own.
Check the video below the fold for Etheridge’s violent reaction to some students asking him questions.
But the Dems were cool with that behavior, because they allowed him to run for the governorship in the Democratic primary, and then after he lost gave him a job in government!”
ace.mu.nu
My objkection to this whole affair is not intended to defend Gianforte, but to criticize the left for, once again, playing the game of “it’s okay when our side does it.” The most recent installment of that is developing now with the media blackout of the Obama administration spying, but Trump and Russia, OMG the end of times!!
Link (H/T Instapundit):
https://pjmedia.com/trending/2017/05/25/shock-complete-msm-news-blackout-on-nsa-illegal-spying-bombshell/
GB,
I read the link. It proved that there is a pretty significant bias against Trump in the media. It said negative media stories about Obama, Bush and Clinton were all in the range of 40-60%
Trumps at 80%
I understand this. I’m pretty negative about him myself, and he’s had a rocky start, and he openly declared war on the media. They are human. Did he expect them to bow before him?
There are tons of conservative voices on the airwaves with huge audiences. They are biased too
About the other stuff. I’m no expert (I’m going to guess that neither are you) but the biggest problem in the African American community is fatherlessness. Take any person of any race and remove fathers from the mix for multiple generations and let me know how they do.
Unless you think the problems are inherent to race. I guess that’s one thing I’m trying to understand.
Finally – about the GOP’s demographics problem. What do you think is the answer? What do you suggest the GOP do?
Same question regarding press bias. What concrete things need to be done?
“The guy is probably exhausted and he snapped. Cut him some slack.” — Cornhead
That may be an explanation, but not an excuse. If in fact, he struck the reporter after they were on the ground, that’s beyond defending himself. I’m glad he took responsibility for it and apologized.
There was a time, in what is now ancient history, when fisticuffs was not that uncommon. I myself, as a young man, engaged in a few fights. But there were some rules. You didn’t hit or kick someone when they were down. That was considered dirty fighting. You didn’t sucker punch someone.
But we are in a new era now. The popular sport that has replaced boxing is cage fighting, where you tackle a guy and once down begin beating him until the referee stops you.
That’s the new entertainment.
Bill — “I really, really hate the new GOP and Trumpism.”
I don’t think this incident can or should be used as some proof of “Trumpism”, or that it is indicative of the “new” GOP.
Bill advocates turning the other cheek. Which is appropriate. At some point though, defense is appropriate.
In this case though, it appears the politician was the aggressor or at minimum over-reacted. In a normal world, he would apologize, pay some penalty and the world would move on, but these are not normal times.
His apology will not be accepted, whatever penalty he may receive won’t be enough and the left will incessantly attack, replaying the incident for as long as they feel it is to their advantage.
This is a cold civil war.
I’m not particularly doubting the story, but a microphone can magnify sound. We all know that sound.. where even touching a mic while adjusting a shirt collar can sound like Armageddon.
That’s because they were not considered unrelenting existential or life-way enemies, as they admit to being now.
They will conform you, or destroy you.
You can play by their rules, or yours.
Each man has a choice.
One choice might be to find allies who share one’s values and exclude the antipathetic other so as to live in association with more or less like-minded persons who are not continually trying to undermine your life.
That is how this country came to be settled.
Some like that way, and some are too sensitive.
You pay your nickle, you take your choice. You get in the final analysis what you pay for.
My ‘give a d@mn’ meter is broken. I truly wish it wasn’t.
I would expect that adherence to professional norms would preclude getting up in someone’s face and not respecting their reply.
One one hand, I consider these liberal activist reporters to be the enemy. On the other hand, if the same had played out with a Dem physically pushing a conservative reporter away/down, I’d probably think they had it coming if I thought they approached someone in the same way as these leftists do.
Punching someone when they’re down is a bit beyond the pale though.
If two athletes throw punches at each other all they get is a technical foul and a fine.
tensions in the political arena can only be expected as even more fierce than any sport events given the stake are so high, if we can tolerate a little fights here and there in sporting events, why are we making such a fuss over a fight in a heated Congressional race.
Dave:
By all reports, this was NOT analogous to two people throwing punches at each other. Jacobs is not alleged to have thrown any punches at all. So your point about athletes throwing punches at each other is completely irrelevant for that reason alone. It is also irrelevant because there are conventions for athletes, who ordinarily have a lot of physical contact with each other in the course of their work. Completely different for politicians and reporters, and also different in ordinary life.
Are you at all familiar with the laws of assault and battery?
Bill,
There is NO way in hell that 40% of the MSM coverage of Obama was negative. And NO way that 40% of the MSM coverage of either Bill or Hillary Clinton was negative.
Plus, there’s a huge difference between coverage that starts with a firm disclaimer and coverage that ends with an ambiguous disclaimer.
No, were they honest they would have proved him wrong, instead they’ve proved Trump to be in the right.
Tons of conservative voices on the airwaves with huge audiences? News flash! Much of FOX is NOT conservative. Rush and other conservative radio voices are preaching to the choir. But in what alternative universe do you reside? Can I get a VISA to visit or better yet, can I emigrate to that heretofore unknown universe?
Fatherlessness is a huge problem and I included it under “acceptance of parental and familial obligations” the rejection of that value in so much of the black community is WHY today, 75% of black children grow up in a fatherless home.
And, it has NOTHING to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with CULTURE. Which is WHY legal immigrants assimilating is critical to American culture’s very survival.
“about the GOP’s demographics problem. What do you think is the answer? What do you suggest the GOP do?”
First of all, the GOP is NOT going to change. And they have been making outreach efforts to the Hispanic community for a number of years and the appeal is strictly one of financial benefit. A doomed approach. The answer is to eliminate illegal immigration by going after the employers and ending the benefits. Then, rewriting the legal immigration laws and much closer vetting of legal immigrants who apply for citizenship. All of that plus overhauling the schools. Good luck with that Sisyphean task.
As for the MSM, pull their broadcasting licenses and prosecute them under new sedition laws.
Of course, none of that will be done, which is why a second American civil war is a near certainty.
Uh-Oh. Neo is drawing us into the lawbooks again.
I for one am not at all familiar with the laws of assault and battery. Nor do I intend to be.
But Gainforte’s really, really wretched Dem opponent lost to him, despite $ millions poured into his campaign from afar, and and Sanders the Frail speechifying for him.
Gianforte is no gem, but he is not a loony Dem.
Frog:
Gee, Frog, I can’t imagine why I’d cite law in a situation in which someone has been charged with violating a law.
And before you decide to deck someone who hasn’t assaulted you, it probably would behoove you to become a bit more conversant with the law on assault and battery. Ignorance of the law is no defense.
In addition, the law of assault and battery is not a recent, newfangled, SJW addition to the legal tradition.
GB,
“There is NO way in hell that 40% of the MSM coverage of Obama was negative. And NO way that 40% of the MSM coverage of either Bill or Hillary Clinton was negative.”
We’ll, in my defense, I was just quoting the study you put forth to prove bias. Here’s the quote.
Drat – I screwed up the blockquotes. Everything from “if you don’t trust the study” and below in the previous comment is back to me.
Neo: Ah, yes, the legal tradition, in which the better debater wins. I respect it but I do not personally like it. I much prefer the medical mindset: if it’s broken, fix it, cure it. There is so much sanctimony in the Law, such tedium on top of that.
But it’s OK. I have a daughter, the 4th generation MD, and a son, the first lawyer ever in the family. We don’t discuss the Law, but its processes sometimes.
“Not even you can take unrelenting provocation. “ – GB
First, “unrelenting” – is it really?
Maybe generalizing the msm for the individual situation here.
.
Second, “provocation” is in the eye of the beholder (say, vs being overly aggressive in pursuit of questions one does not like, perhaps in a disagreeable tone, with a microphone close to one’s face).
That is what the court will settle out.
But, didn’t Gianforte ran for governor?
He should not be naive, and should have developed some reasonable strategies to deal with the media, and not take it personally.
.
You ever see reviews on small businesses, say on Amazon, or Yelp?
If the owner bad mouths the customer on a complaint or low rating, does that make you want to buy from them?
Too many responses like that and you will conclude it is the owner, not the customer.
Why bring this up?
There are always times that are trying, are unfair, where you “know” you are right and the other “wrong”, but what matters is how you handle it, and how you conduct your affairs with everyone else – which will speak for itself, in the long run.
“Winning” that specific battle is almost always a “losers” proposition.
.
Looking back to my youth, cannot say I am innocent.
But life has a way of teaching you, if you are willing to learn.
Call it wisdom.
Frog:
We’re not talking about trials here or the adversary process of argument; that’s not the legal tradition embodied in the statutory laws on assault and battery, which is what we’re talking about here.
Google: “Bike lock guy arrested”
For those who might be interested I will provide one update link.
He was arraigned; and much of the mainstream media coverage of professor Eric Michael Clanton’s assault with a deadly weapon on several Trump supporters, concerns not the attack per se, but the “Alt Right’s” indignant reaction to it.
This is of course a phenomenon which is not new. It has for some years been widely remarked that when someone from the left commits a crime, a potential crime, or an overreach, the coverage focuses if possible on the perpetrator’s adept “handling” of the ensuing controversy, or at least shifts to the controversy itself.
That is how the Mercury News has chosen to cover it: “Furor over alleged anti-Trump bike-lock attacker goes viral ”
Here following is the set-up the Mercury thought worth printing; and then the comment from a progressive who fully approves of the assault on and battery of the man, who in the available videos, is shown to be doing nothing aggressive.
http://www.mercurynews.com/2017/05/26/furor-over-anti-trump-bike-lock-attacker-goes-viral/
How many times have we seen in the news liberal celebs beating up paparazzi? Liberals are very tolerant of other liberals assaulting reporters (Johnny Depp, Alec Baldwin, Sean Penn of the top of my head) so it seems very hypocritical to me if they demand harsh punishment only in a situation where the assailant was a Conservative. If you get beat up and everyone in the world is on the side of the assailant maybe you should look into the mirror and ask the question why you working as propagandist get so little love and respect from anyone. I don’t condone violence but i love watching SWJs getting beat up, everyone loves watching a bully getting beat up by the victim the bully was picking on.
“I disagree profoundly with your take on race and culture.” Bill
Interesting. So, do you dispute the necessity for socioeconomic success of the values I elucidate?
Or do you dispute that the cultures I mention neglect or reject the particular values I champion? For instance, do you assert that urban black kids in the aggregate, dismiss the value of an education they commonly assert to be ‘white’?
See: “A Framework for Understanding
Whiteness in Mathematics Education”
Then, if you dare, google “college, white privilege” after reading just the first page of links, get back to us.
Or you can visit the Campus Reform website (http://www.campusreform.org/)and read of stories like this, ‘Abolition of Whiteness’ course offered at Hunter College
“Hunter College will offer students an “Abolition of Whiteness” course this fall to discuss the role of “white supremacy and violence.”
Do you dispute that:
A failure to accept personal responsibility for one’s choices prevents learning from our mistakes?
That fathers have an parental obligation to act as role models for their offspring?
That without the parental inculcation of a strong work ethic, the child is highly unlikely to develop the self-discipline and persistence needed to reach challenging goals?
That absent the understanding of delayed gratification, savings are impossible and avoidance of early pregnancy is at best, problematic?
Please explain how groups achieve success without the embrace of these values. Or if you agree, then present a rational argument that disproves the assertions I’ve made about the minority cultures. Not individual exceptions mind you but in the aggregate, demonstrate how Hispanics and urban* blacks embrace these cultural values.
* The great majority of blacks live in the cities and suburbs.
Cultures change., GB.
I don’t know what we’re arguing about. You have asserted that Hispanic culture and black culture are invariable and unchanging.
The reasons for black fatherlessness are complex and rooted in a number of things, including the fact that we enslaved them, brutalized them, split up their families, etc. That “ended” legally in 1865 but was only remedied by law within our lifetimes. It takes a long time for a culture to recover from that.
You appear to want to give up reaching them and also appear to believe that if the future isn’t white the Republican party dies.
I can’t go there with you. That’s all I’m saying.
“it seems very hypocritical to me if they demand harsh punishment only in a situation where the assailant was a Conservative” – just one example
Many of the arguments here seem to be of the “they do it and they let themselves get away with it, why shouldn’t we” variety.
No doubt we can find many examples of how the left / msm do this – e.g. mercury news.
If one cannot see what is wrong with a man running for political office physically assaulting a person, and it comes down to you believe the “left” do the same, and gives the assaulter a pass, something is very wrong.
All I know is that if we resort to the same thing, and just go full red vs blue, nobody wins, as trust and credibility becomes non-existent for everybody making those arguments.
There are plenty of people who are not full bore blue leftists, but they vote just the same.
If that is how we want to conduct ourselves, forget about persuading any of them that your ideas are better.
Bill,
Clearly you misunderstand me. I have not and do not claim that Hispanic culture and black culture are invariable and unchanging.
You are mistaken in your historical assertion that slavery and Jim Crow made the embracing of these virtues basically unattainable. Prior to the 1960s, black fathers in homes were in far higher percentages than today. That is profound cultural change right there.
Since the 60’s there has been no dearth of hands reaching out to them. But there is a difference between a helping hand and a free ride.
In 2014, the Heritage Foundation published,
“The War on Poverty After 50 Years”
Authors:
Rachel Sheffield and Robert Rector
What I believe is that if the great majority of Americans don’t support these virtues, America dies.
How many times do I have to say it? “it has NOTHING to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with CULTURE.”
“The only way you’re going to “expand the reach of the party beyond white people” is by abandoning those principles because the people you wish to reach have either already rejected those principles (high black crime and incarceration rates are whiteys fault) or like the Asians, wish to increase their tribe’s power….
“it has NOTHING to do with race and EVERYTHING to do with CULTURE.”” – GB
Seems to very much be an argument to not bother because this group of (non-white?) people are unreachable. Evidently, it is all “their” culture, and they behave as one monolithic group.
It is something of a circular self-reinforcing argument.
Yet, people are individuals. They can change their minds, even when immersed in a “culture” that may disagree with us.
If that were not a possibility, this blog wouldn’t be here.
.
The insult referenced in some comment above is really towards those people that we dismiss as somehow not worthy of the effort to reach out to, because we assume they are not individuals with their own minds, who couldn’t possibly be convinced of our ideas, that we have to abandon those principles to win them over.
Interesting how we think we are individuals with our own minds (well, some dilblerts DO think the world is filled with meatpuppets, themselves magically excepted), but somehow “other” people are group zombies.
.
Then back to our red vs blue corners we go. Blaming the “other”, every individual owning the action and results of the worst of “their group”, while no wrong can be possible on “our side”.
All this effort to explain what it is about the “other” culture that makes it impossible to move them, instead of expending any effort (yes, perhaps with painfully slow results) to reach beyond those already convinced, but seeking solace in the echo chamber.
We don’t need EVERYONE to agree with us, but we do need enough to give a consistent margin of wins electorally.
But current course and speed in the direction this seems to go, appears to be a formula to guarantee the results we say we don’t want.
G.B.:
Amen, amen.
This blog has begun to attract some Bills, who come to oppose, argue, cite ignorance as information.
In the 1930s and 40s, Harlem couples dressed up for church, well-documented in photos. The men wore suits and hats; the women, dresses and white gloves. Harlem was of course totally segregated at the time. That was culture, not race. But along came the civil rights laws and the War on Poverty, and the black middle class gradually fled to reside elsewhere, leaving urban dependents behind. Public housing went up, etc…a long downward spiral.
Church attendance is today way down, as in Europe, and few dress up to worship. I daresay today more of us worship the State than God; the large majority of Western Europeans surely do. My church appeals weekly for proper dress- no shorts in the summer- to no avail. That is the decline of standards, the absence of humility. That is CULTURE, not race or racism.
Cultures have standards. Standards can be and are being eroded. By the Bills, whether by intent or by accident.
“In the 1930s and 40s, Harlem couples…” – Frog
Look, at the end of the day, not saying there isn’t a problem overall with how our government has created a dependency, nor that there isn’t something amiss in our society.
What’s the goal in pointing this out with the examples you use?
Are you are trying to persuade someone not already convinced of those problems, the dependency, etc?
If so, the connotation of 1930s “totally segregated” Harlem is hardly something that folks want to go back to. There is waaay too much baggage loaded in that reference.
If you want it to be about standards, then talk about how certain behaviors lead to bad outcomes, how government handouts lead to dependency, how government run schools seem to be hindering progress for those who most need it.
Those problems are hardly in need of a reference to 1930’s segregated Harlem.
Though it maybe well intentioned, too many want (and perhaps seem too eager) to bring up racial based examples in the context of a point.
Few of us have the credentials and research that a Thomas Sowell or Charles Murphy has had on these kind of topics, to draw upon.
As a result, most of us mere mortals usually end up with our own personal Todd Aiken moment.
.
Anyway, the point was, that too many argue like it is something about “culture”, perhaps with some rather valid points, but then treat it like the people in their example are part of some monolithic group (racial or otherwise) that cannot change, or worse, are irredeemably so, that it is not worth bothering to even try.
In the forever battle of ideas, if this is one’s thought process, then we are ceding great territory to the left.