Women and children first: the propaganda of compassion, at Qana and elsewhere
The casualties at Qana are horrific. The visuals are heartrending, and the details sorrowful–especially the predominance of women and children among the dead.
We are biologically predisposed to want to protect children–to love them, to smile when we see them. Only monsters kill children, correct?
Although the phrase “women and children first” comes from maritime tradition, the same impulse has meant, historically, that societies were generally dedicated to protecting that especially vulnerable and vital portion of their population from the enemy.
This doesn’t mean that in war women and children were not killed, of course, despite those efforts at protection. In particular, the aeriel bombardments of World War II made children fair game if they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, although they were not specifically targets (except for purposeful Nazi killings of Jewish children during the Holocaust). Some countries, such as England, sent many of their children off to the countryside during the war, because it was mainly cities that were bombed.
And World War II ended with the terrible atomic conflagration of Hiroshima, which killed indiscriminately; a description of the plight of the victims was immortalized in John Hersey’s classic. Hersey’s Hiroshima, published after World War II ended, represented the first attempt of which I’m aware to take a close look at the enemy war dead, and to view them with compassion and even a sense of shame for what an honorable nation, the United States, felt it necessary to do in time of war.
I’ve discussed the pros and cons of dropping the atomic bombs on Japan here; I’m not going to rehash the topic at this point. I’m bringing it up now, however, to illustrate the fact that World War II involved such widespread and horrific carnage–both military and civilian–that, once it was over, there was a natural desire to write about the devastation in the humane (and probably vain) hope that people would somehow found a way to avoid such things in the future.
Here’s what I wrote about Hersey’s work in my earlier post:
Hersey’s book purposely gives his reportage on Hiroshima no context at all, the better to appreciate the appalling human cost. He simply describes, and the reader identifies with the victims. There is no way to read his book and not feel a deep and visceral revulsion towards what happened there.
Although the scale is nothing whatsoever like Hiroshima, the casualties at Qana are dreadful, and we instinctively recoil from them. They are also the sort of the thing that makes good programming for the voracious jaws of the 24-hour-a-day cable news cycle. And as for context–well, too much context would muddy the waters and appear to justify the bombing of children.
But too little context serves the propaganda purposes of the group least interested in stopping the deaths of children such as these, and that is Hezbollah.
In Qana, Israel was targeting a location that had been used repeatedly for rocket firing at Israel’s own civilians. Israel forces had warned the population to leave prior to the bombing. The people who died obviously did not heed those warnings. Whether this was because they didn’t get the word to leave, or couldn’t leave because they didn’t have the resources, or voluntarily chose not to leave, or whether Hezbollah kept them from leaving, we simply do not know.
Israel had no information that this particular structure was filled with women and children when it was targeted. But filled it was. And, as Richard Fernandez of Belmont Club writes, “… all the leaflets in the world can be dropped and the death of civilians still be a near-inevitability.”
The new calculus of asymmetrical warfare, of which Hezbollah is master, is that the sacrifice of women and children is a good strategic move; putting weaponry among its own women and children is the result of a conscious and wily decision on its part.
This is a sort of looking-glass inversion of the old rule “women and children first.” And it tends to work, because current asymmetrical warfare is fought less on the traditional battlefield and more on the battlefield of public opinion.
Hezbollah knows that there’s nothing like dead women and children to turn public opinion against those doing the killing. And there’s nothing like the Western news to fail to adequately provide and evaluate the all-important context for that killing.
Hezbollah could not–and would not–operate this way if it didn’t rely on both the compassion of the West and its news cycle. Without these things, Hezbollah’s actions would be suicidal. But with these things, Hezbollah’s actions are effective.
So, what’s the solution? What should Israel–or any other country faced with such a dilemma–do when an enemy such as Hezbollah turns the tables on the compassionate West, and takes advantage of the compassion to get a twofer: launching rockets from civilian enclaves in Lebanon to directly target Israeli civilians, and then scoring a propaganda coup with the cooperation of the Western media when Israel retaliates and kills the Lebanese civilians?
And then imagine a similar question being asked when a nation such as Iran goes nuclear. The people of Iran will then be in the position of the women and children of Qana, first in line for retaliation if the mad mullahs decide to attack.
In any sane world, the government of Lebanon and/or Hezbollah would have evacuated any remaining civilians, especially children, from the area that the Israelis had specifically said were in being targeted.
In any sane world, the “international community’s” revulsion would be against the government of Lebanon and Hezbollah.
Also, there is something that is already not kosher about the reports we’re getting on Qana – see Little Green Footballs at http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21855_Pallywood_in_Lebanon&only and http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=21846_Qana_Propaganda_Begins_to_Fall_Apart&only
Attempts to minimize civilian casualties only encourage groups like Hezbollah to hide among innocents — thereby ultimately increasing civilian casualties.
The only true humane policy is to announce that Israel (and the rest of the West) will kill terrorists no matter where they hide. In the long run they will seek “hard” and hidden shelters, and stop endangering innocents. Not because they care for the innocents but because it doesn’t benefit them.
Israel and the West also need to make the sponsors of terrorism accountable. Annouce that any future terrorist attacks against the US, say, will be taken as acts of war by the Iranian government. (This may be the only way to forestall the otherwise inevitable nuclear terrorism by “rogue elements” using Iranian nukes.) I think the mullahs might well rein in their proxy armies if there are actual consequences attached.
I said it before; the war strategy of Hezbollah involves in great part hiding behind the civilian population. It part camoflauge, part propaganda mill. Its obvious, but so many choose not to see or admit it.
The pictures of dead woman and children are worth their weight in propaganda gold. It is a war aim for Hezbollah to get these people killed to both turn public opinion and to recruit more fanatics.
“Doesn’t Israel care about the civilian casualties?” people cry.
No one seems to ever ask that question of Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran or Syria.
Anyone notice the racism here, btw? How many people have been murdered in Darfur in the last year alone, and they are being killed even now. Where is the international furor? The outcry over the senseless slaughter?
People claim Israelis hold Jewish lives of greater worth than Arabs. I guess most of the world values Arab lives over that of Africans.
The absurdity rampant today is sickening.
Neo:
To me, the most telling part of the whole Qana tragedy is the unveiling of a 30-foot banner bemoaning the event mere HOURS after it happened. The banner is a professionally-done, full color, 3-story picture of Condi Rice over rubble and blood with an Arabic caption condeming the “massacre”.
Sorry, but such a banner *cannot* be produced in such a short time; it had to be pre-printed. This was a propaganda coup, staged by Hezbollah, using civilians AS THEY ALWAYS DO. They are beneath contempt, and need to be eradicated.
Some further info on staging can be found here:
http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html
I overheard someone say this morning, “If Israel loses this war, it will be the first time a war has been lost because of political correctness.”
Woe to the West if that should happen.
Link to the banner I referenced above:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/060730/photos_wl_me_afp/9034cf170a188a04a5e80bd48812ca98
It’s an outright crime against humanity, cut and clear, but this is the very nature of terrorism. [posing as a ‘freedom fighter’ militia]
“Whether this was because they didn’t get the word to leave, or couldn’t leave because they didn’t have the resources, or voluntarily chose not to leave, or whether Hezbollah kept them from leaving, we simply do not know.”
Yes we do know. That is a lie. We know there is zero evidence that Hezbollah leaders prevented them from going.
We do know that Israel has bombed the roads out, attacked civilians fleeing in cars, and that the population there is very poor and in fact very few even have a way of getting out.
We also know Israel knew that there were civilians in Qana. They bombed the same place in 1996, a UN compound killing over 100 civilians seeking refuge there.
There is no other possibility than it was done purposely. That is the truth.
Try to understand what you are doing is wrong. Your God will not forgive you lies….
This whole thing is typical of the appallingly cynical nature of the Islamo-fascists, their Western supporters and the media.
The terrorists have successfully “weaponized” women and children, alive or dead. The display of a dead child over and over again to different members of the media for a photo op is horrific, but the media ignores it for the footage of a totally staged “rescue and remains recovery”.
Everyone “pretends”. The terrorists pretend to care about civilian casualties. The media pretends to cover staged events, “Pallywood Moments”. The terror supporters pretend to care deeply about the dead and wounded civilians and the propaganda goes out into the world where Muslims pretend to care.
Any astute observer knows what is really going on but pointing out naked kings is simply not done anymore.
Anybody remember what happened in the story of the boy who cried wolf?
Reichstag fires
Great links and very interesting story! Thanks ‘Steve Rosenbach’
Steven Rosenbach went to all that trouble to reveal absolutely nothing.
His ‘revelations’ change absoluley nothing.
What they do tell us is that there are alot of evil people supporting Israel. Instead of commenting on the horrific loss of life they spend an entire afternoon trying to find a way to spin mass murder to blame the victim.
There are people in America who need to pray right now for their souls – if they have one….
“Yes we do know. That is a lie. We know there is zero evidence that Hezbollah leaders prevented them from going.”
Okay, lets assume that’s true.
There is, however, ample evidence that Hezbollah smuggled weapons and foreign fighters into these civilian populations and launched attacks from same. Do they not bear some guilt for the deaths of the civilians caught in the crossfire?
“There is no other possibility than it was done purposely. That is the truth.”
The “truth” as you tell yourself. Logic and the facts would say otherwise. Again, if Hezbollah purposefully mixed itself within the civilian population of Lebanon, isn’t it their fault for the death of civilians? There is plenty of open space for Hezbollah to set up shop in Lebanon, away from the towns and cities. How come they did not do so?
yhamir,
The “evil” is not to be found on the side of a people defending themselves. It is to be found with those who cynically shield themselves with civilians.
The loss of life is regrettable but will continue until Islamic forces become something more than animals.
yhamir:
The “evil” is people like you, who refuse to believe in the true evil of Hezbollah (Hizb’allah, whatever), even when confronted with irrefutable FACTS of the staging of civilian deaths. You enable these tragedies to continue. You make it possible for Hizb’allah to exist. You are part of the problem.
Yhamir wrote: We do know that Israel has bombed the roads out, attacked civilians fleeing in cars, and that the population there is very poor and in fact very few even have a way of getting out.
From the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/world/middleeast/31scene.html?ref=middleeast
The Israeli government apologized for that airstrike, as it did for the one here on Sunday. It said that residents had been warned to leave and should have already been gone.
But leaving southern Lebanon now is dangerous. The two extended families staying in the house that the Israeli missile struck — the Shalhoubs and the Hashims — had discussed leaving several times over the past two weeks. But they were poor — most worked in tobacco or construction — and the families were big and many of their members weak, with a 95-year-old, two relatives in wheelchairs and dozens of children. A taxi north, around $1,000, was unaffordable.
And then there was the risk of the road itself.
Dozens, including 21 refugees in the back of a pickup truck on July 15, have been killed by Israeli strikes while trying to evacuate. Missiles hit two Red Cross ambulances last weekend, wounding six people and punching a circle in the center of the cross on one’s roof. A rocket hit the ambulance convoy that responded in Qana on Sunday.
“We heard on the news they were bombing the Red Cross,” said Zaineb Shalhoub, a 22-year-old who survived the bombing. She was lying quietly in a hospital bed in Tyre.
“What can we do with all of our kids?” she asked. “There was just no way to go.”
They had moved to the house on the edge of a high ridge, which was dug into the earth. They thought it would be safer. The position helped muffle the sound of the bombs.
But its most valuable asset was water. The town, mostly abandoned, had not had power or running water in many days. A neighbor rigged a pumping system, and the Shalhoubs and Hashims ran a pipe from that house to theirs.
Life had taken on a strange, stunted quality. In a crawl-space basement area near the crushed house, five mattresses were on the floor. A Koran was open to a prayer. A school notebook was on a pillow. Each morning, the women made breakfast for the children. Ms. Shalhoub gave lessons. And they all hoped for rescue.
The first missile struck around 1 a.m., throwing Mohamed Shalhoub, one of the relatives who uses a wheelchair, into an open doorway. His five children, ages 12 to 2, were still inside the house, as was his wife, his mother and a 10-year-old nephew. He tried to get to them, but minutes later another missile hit. By morning, when the rescue workers arrived, all eight of his relatives were dead.
“I felt like I was turning around, and the earth was going up and I was going into the earth,” said Mr. Shalhoub, 38, staring blankly ahead in a hospital bed in Tyre.
The New York Times
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/31/world/middleeast/31scene.html?ref=middleeast
So when alQaeda blew up the towers they knew the loss of all that innocent life would be a huge PR loss to them. So they went ahead and did it to turn world opinion against themselves.And when the Phalangists murdered the Palestinians at Shatilla they saw the big PR backlash it would cause. But did it anyway.
The question for you folks is this: If you know an enemy is using innocents as a human shield, do you go ahead and take out the innocents to achieve your goal or do you risk increased loss of life for your own soldiers by using a focused ,groundforce approach? What is the higher moral position? What does international law say on this dilemna?
troutsky asked: If you know an enemy is using innocents as a human shield, do you go ahead and take out the innocents to achieve your goal or do you risk increased loss of life for your own soldiers by using a focused ,groundforce approach?
Did you see what “senescent wasp” had written in another thread on this website? (s)he had ominously written: “They are like animals.”
Troutsky, ou can probably deduce what kind of answer (s)he and his/her friends might give to your question, on the basis of that sentence.
“Troutsky, ou can probably deduce what kind of answer (s)he and his/her friends might give to your question, on the basis of that sentence.”
Or you could let people answer for themselves.
“The question for you folks is this: If you know an enemy is using innocents as a human shield, do you go ahead and take out the innocents to achieve your goal or do you risk increased loss of life for your own soldiers by using a focused ,groundforce approach? What is the higher moral position? What does international law say on this dilemna?”
Add to that the fact that ground attacks don’t really stop civilian casualties, especially when one side uses them as human shields.
You know, I see all this incensed commentary regarding the Israeli hitting civilians, but no horrified condemnation from the same crowd for the HUNDREDS of rockers fired indiscriminately into Israeli towns and cities. All the evidence points to the facts tha Hezbollah targets civilians as their primary mode of assault, and yet so many ignore it.
So, let’s here it from the “Israeli war crime crowd” that lobbing rockets blindly into civilian populations is a war crime or lose all credibility.
The question for you folks is this: If you know an enemy is using innocents as a human shield, do you go ahead and take out the innocents to achieve your goal or do you risk increased loss of life for your own soldiers by using a focused ,groundforce approach? What is the higher moral position? What does international law say on this dilemna?
A wiser man than you, President Bush, said that we should attack the supporters of terrorism, because they’re just as guilty of murder as the terrorists.
Well, if he actually followed his own advice, he’d be a wise man…
The statesmen and the bankers who support terrorism are enemy combatants. The best approach is to take out the supporters, by whatever means possible, and to destroy the billion dollar terrorist infrastructure.
Hisbollah are cowards to hide behind women and children, to fire rockets from their houses, to prevent them from fleeing–and to cause their deaths.
Oh you cowards Hisbollah, and all who defend you, may you die a thousand painful deaths you less than pigs.
I’m sorry, Yhamir, but if you don’t mind I’d like something clarified:
When the Prophet Muhammad was in Medina and was attacked by the Meccans, he fought back and invaded Mecca.
Israel has been attacked by Hezbollah operating out of Lebanon, so they’ve invaded Lebanon.
Israel is following the example of the Prophet. How can that be evil?
This entire spectacle is ridiculous.
If Americans hid behind civilians when doing battle in Iraq, the world would criticize *us* for doing so and not the terrorists who killed the human shields. With respect to the Party of God (the Hezb’Allah) much of the world is living in opposite world. Muslims will support their own because Allah commands it, and socialist Europeans suffer too much guilt to even countenance that brown people can behave badly.
People in the west who agonize over EVERY military decision need to get a clue. Politically Correct wars are unwinnable, and wars cannot be made on the cheap. People of *all* political persuasions need to understand this. If we go to war, people die. That’s why it is called war, and not happy playtime.
If the Hezb’Allah really valued the lives of the Lebs, they’d return the two soldiers. Unfortunately war with the Jews has greater priority for most of the Lebanese, and they will continue to pay the price they deserve.
The “animals”, actually a slur on animals in general, are the terrorists. The civilians to the extent that they are supporters are complicit. If they are truly innocent, being used as shields, then their being casualties are the price of war.
And, as I’ve stated so many times, there is no “international law” beyond some aspects of Admiralty Law. If any universal law is involved in the struggle against Islamo-fascism it is the Law of Survival.
Soon the civilian casualty card will be seen for what it is, a cynical ploy. It will then lose its value. And, for the record and for those who have not been around Neo’s blog for very long and who merely parachute in to leave their Left Wing talking points and propaganda, I’m a male.
Bowden wrote: If Americans hid behind civilians when doing battle in Iraq, the world would criticize *us* for doing so and not the terrorists who killed the human shields.
Salon.com has reported that Hezbollah doesn’t use human shields:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/
The “hiding among civilians” myth
“Israel claims it’s justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn’t trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.”
By Mitch Prothero
“Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths — the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far — on “terrorists” who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.
“But this claim is almost always false. My own reporting and that of other journalists reveals that in fact Hezbollah fighters — as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers — avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators — as so many Palestinian militants have been.
“Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah’s political wing — all have been reduced to rubble.
“In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?
“The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah’s social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The “terrorist” organization Hezbollah is Lebanon’s second-biggest employer.
“Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered “Hezbollah” installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons — they did, after all, take over an apartment building against the protests of the landlord, knowing full well it would be bombed — but for military ones.
“You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon,” a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. “They do not
[cont from prev]
“You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon,” a Lebanese military intelligence official, now retired, once told me. “They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They’re completely afraid of collaborators.”
Read the full article at Salon.com’s website:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2006/07/28/hezbollah/
Oh, yes, that marvelous Salon piece. The one that was unfortunately refuted by Australian photographs of non-uniformed Hezbollah fighters setting up an antiaircraft gun in a residential setting.
Even the Guardian found some actual Hezbollah people who had weapons stacked inside their apartment. Who admitted that they were patient and would wait for the Israelis to come, right where they were, comingled with civilians. Who also described how they shake down the neighbors when they need money, because people trust them. Who promised to retaliate against any politicians who denounced them.
Hezbollah doesn’t care a whit about the Lebanese people. The Lebanese people seem to have little problem with Hezbollah, at least according to a poll taken a couple of days ago. Everybody seems to be getting what they want. Except the dead. They can’t be reached for comment.
“Israel claims it’s justified in bombing civilians because Hezbollah mingles with them. In fact, the militant group doesn’t trust its civilians and stays as far away from them as possible.” Then how do they recruit — do they have recruiting offices? Or do they recruit by their contacts with civilians in the cities and in the field? If they didn’t conduct terror operations near civilians then what would protect them?
About Salon.com
>>> Jonathan Foreman, has absurdly attacked it in Salon.com as “fascist” – movie review of “The Patriot”
>>> “By refusing to run his ad blasting reparations for slavery, cringing campus journalists are giving the racial provocateur publicity that money can’t buy.” By Joan Walsh at Salon.com referring to David Horowitz’s ‘Reparation’ article printed in college newspapers some years back.
>>> If Vice President Al Gore is wondering where his Florida votes went, rather than sift through a pile of chad, he might want to look at a “scrub list” of 173,000 names targeted to be knocked off the Florida voter registry by a division of the office of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. By Gregory Palast’ at Salon.com
Just tidbit of what you’ll find at Salon.com
Rock– if the MSM was a reputable source of information, I wouldn’t be on the blogs.
With regard to human shields, here is what a Lebanese Shia states:
“I lived until 2002 in a small southern village near Mardshajund that is inhabited by a majority of Shias like me. After Israel left Lebanon, it did not take long for Hezbollah to take have its say in other towns. Received as successful resistance fighters and armed to the teeth, they stored rockets in bunkers in our town as well. The social work of the Party of God consisted in building a school and a residence over these bunkers! A local sheikh explained to me laughing that the Jews would lose in any event because the rockets would either be fired at them or if they attacked the rockets depots, they would be condemned by world opinion on account of the dead civilians. These people do not care about the Lebanese population, they use them as shields, and, once dead, as propaganda. As long as they continue existing there, there will be no tranquility and peace.
Dr. Mounir Herzallah
Berlin-Wedding
If Hezbollah bombs the crap out of Tel Aviv and kills a couple of thousand civilians and then says the IDF hides amongst civilians because Tel Aviv is where the main headquarters of the IDF is – would you buy that?
It doesn’t wash. And it doesn’t wash with Hezbollah either.
So give it up.
yhamir:
Hezbollah is already bombing Tel Aviv, or had you not noticed? They’ve already killed civilians, or did you not read that in Salon? You were aware, of course, that Hezbollah STARTED the current conflict?
You know, FACTS are ever so much more believable than conjecture.
So give it up.
Yhamir–
The Hezb’Allah would fire *nukes* at Tel Aviv if they could. Like Hamas and Islamic Jihad, the Party of God is a group of fanatics that believe Jews don’t have a right to live in the region.
Don’t you forget it.
Islam(ofascists) adore killing. Always the infidel.
And, worse than animals: even their own.
Yes, they would stage fake bombings, as perhaps here. They send their life blood (children) into civilian territory to kill and main and kill (as suicide bombers) They slaughter and slaughter.
They are the evil of Nazi Germany/Imperial Japan resurrected. And deserve the same fate.
“If Hezbollah bombs the crap out of Tel Aviv and kills a couple of thousand civilians and then says the IDF hides amongst civilians because Tel Aviv is where the main headquarters of the IDF is – would you buy that?”
Sorry, your analogy is flawed. Try again.
Israel has not killed a couple of thousand civilians, especially when you consider all the Hezzies get counted as “civilians” by their apologists..
Hezbollah has not targeted IDF headquarters, unless you consider most of northern Israel to be “IDF headquarters”. The IDF, a large portion of it, is on the border of Lebanon right now, but gosh darn it, Hezbollah doesn’t seem interested in firing at those juicy targets. Nope, anywhere BUT where the IDF seems just dandy.
Israeli tanks and APC do not park in residential garages.
Israeli troops do not bunker in apartments in dowtown Tel Aviv or Haifa.
Israeli troops wear uniforms so you can tell them apart from civilians, Lebanese or otherwise.
Tell me, since Hezbollah can afford such advanced rocket and missile technology, why can’t they afford uniforms to identify themselves from the general populace?
“Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered “Hezbollah” installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible.”
So, let me get this straight. Let’s ignore the video of the rockets taking off from cities, the pictures of Hezzies hanging out with the Lebanese peeps, and the numerous witnesses to Hezbollah occupation.
You believe Israel, despite Hezbollah considerately locating itself FAR away from civilians, purposefully overflies the terrorist enclave in order to drops payloads Lebanese population centers? Oh, and UN compounds.
Hooohkay.
Salon lies aside, here is some photo evidence of Hezbollah goons in a suburb:
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,,19955774-5007220,00.html
Even the UN’s humanitarian chief Jan Egeland blasted Hezbollah as “cowards” for operating among civilians.
Islam is not a religion. It is a cult of war, death and hatred. Mohammed is not a prophet, he was a demon possesed maniac of even greater depravity than Hitler or Stalin or Pol Pot.
Europe especially is vulnerable to Islamo-facist terrorism, but it is inevitable everywhere.
Those muslim’s who purport to preach peace will be the first wave of forced human shields.
When will they wise up?
A Lebanese Shia explains how Hezbollah uses human shields
http://judeoscope.ca/article.php3?id_article=0429
Israel has not killed a couple of thousand civilians, especially when you consider all the Hezzies get counted as “civilians” by their apologists.
In zombies photoblog, you can see Bay area ‘peace’ activists with pictures of Iraqi ‘victims’ up the US invasion. The ‘victims’ are almost all adult males.
The Hezb’Allah would fire *nukes* at Tel Aviv if they could.
They wouldn’t irradiate Palestine.
You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon
One sometimes stumbles across completely laughable assertions that have absolutely no basis in reality. The writers at Salon and the commentor have apparently not seen any of the videos constantly shown on television of fully armed terrorists parading in formation down streets(the only time you’ll see them in uniform), occasionally shooting their weapons in the air for emphasis.
Rock quoted from the Salon article… “…They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets,…”
Salon is obviously confused about this – we all remember the video of the 2- 500 lb bombs that dispatched Zarkawi in Iraq … the bombs exploded inside the single building Zarkawi was in and left the surrounding neighborhood largely unscathed.
I’m not aware of anything in the Israeli inventory, short of alledged nuclear weapons, that would be “capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets.”
People need to have a much more questioning attitude towards what they read in the general press… ask yourself it it passes The Smell Test.
The Salon article obviously Smells to high heaven.
Sorry, yhamir, there’s just too much evidence to the contrary:
Mr Green Helmet
“His presence at Qana on Sunday, and his central, unchallenged role, cannot have been a coincidence. Is he a senior ranking Hezbollah official? If not, who is he?”
One sometimes stumbles across completely laughable assertions that have absolutely no basis in reality. The writers at Salon and the commentor have apparently not seen any of the videos constantly shown on television of fully armed terrorists parading in formation down streets(the only time you’ll see them in uniform), occasionally shooting their weapons in the air for emphasis.
So obvious — great comment, grackle
Is it possible for Israeli forces to commit a war crime? Or is that a contradiction in terms?
I’m serious. I’d appreciate a serious (as opposed to a knee-jerk mouthfroth) response.
Is it possible for Israeli forces to commit a war crime? Or is that a contradiction in terms?
I’m serious. I’d appreciate a serious (as opposed to a knee-jerk mouthfroth) response.
I didn’t write or post that message twice. Is it some sort of technological miscue, or am I being set up for being blocked as a spammer? (Just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean neo isn’t out to get you).
tequila:
Of course it’s possible. Every nation on earth has committed a “war crime” at one time or another. But here’s the rub: for Israel, the U.S., and most Western nations, the “war crime” is an *aberration*.
For Hizb’allah, it’s SOP. Does that excuse Israel when it’s committed an atrocity? No. Is Qana an atrocity? Yes and no. Yes—a Hizb’allah propaganda stunt. No—not an Israeli war crime.
stumbley, thank you for answer: “Does that excuse Israel when it’s committed an atrocity? No.”
Brilliant. I think that’s progress. Let’s take it as a given that Hezbollah’s actions — lobbing missiles into Israeli territory — are an atrocity; now let’s take responsibility for our own actions in response — with the IDF acting as a Western proxy.
I think you’re going to take some flak from the majority on this blog for expressing that opinion. Or maybe not; as a recognized member of their own, you may be immune.
Me, I think both sides are lying like sidewalks. I’m trying to arrive at a reasonable conclusion, but the extremism on both sides seems to make it impossible.
Oh, and I refuse to acknowledge that whatever action Israel takes — 9/11! War on Terror! — is legitimate and justified. Let’s consider whether it is or is not.
I consider every action Israel takes in Lebanon legitimate and justified, because Lebanon promised it wouldn’t launch any attacks on Israel if they removed their troops from south Lebanon. They broke that promise mere months after the IDF pulled out, and have been violating it with increasing flagrancy ever since.
Hezbollah is the legitimate, democratically elected government of south Lebanon. The civilians have voted for war with Israel, and I shed no tears for their deaths.
The civilians have voted for war with Israel, and I shed no tears for their deaths.
J.H.Bowden:
Excellent post. You said it all.
If you are going to fight a war then fight a war. Political correctness be damned. That just drags things out forever and the result is many more deaths. I think this is the mistake that is being made in Iraq – which is similar to Lebanon in that it is made up of many competing groups. PC types like the Europeans (and, obviously, some Americans) want to “negotiate” and “reach agreements” but how can you have a dialogue when there is no one on the other side who can legitimately speak for the whole? As we see, the result is anarchy.
The Lebanese (of all religious and political persuasions) have shown in their words and actions that the division between them still run deep and that, in the end, they are more anti-Israel than anti-Hezbollah. I think the Israelis realized this a long time ago. This is why they must continue until they achieve their goals.
Lets see how the feckless Europeans react when they are faced with their own Muslim uprisings which are sure to come. Anyone who thinks the French, in particular, will be “proportionate” in their reaction clearly doesn’t know the French.
Today’s new from Iraq
———————
07/31/06 UPI: Army equipment said wearing out
07/31/06 Security forces assault Al-Hurra correspondent in Iraq
07/31/06 KUNA: Four Peshmergas killed,
07/31/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty Pfc. Enrique C. Sanchez
07/31/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty Cpl. Timothy D. Roos
07/31/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty Lance Cpl. Adam R. Murray
07/31/06 DoD Identifies Marine Casualty Lance Cpl. James W. Higgins
07/31/06 AP: Marines Prop Up Ailing Local Gov’t in Iraq
07/31/06 Reuters: Number of Iraqi refugees from violence swells
07/31/06 Reuters: Soldier died from body armour shortage
07/31/06 AP: Three bullet-riddled bodies found in Baghdad
07/31/06 AP: Suicide bomber kills four Iraqi soldiers near Mosul
07/31/06 AP: Gunmen kidnap millionaire businessman and his two sons
07/31/06 Dunya: Iraq fixes sabotaged Turkey pipeline
07/31/06 AP: Gunmen open fire on street sweepers in Baghdad
07/31/06 concordmonitor: 2 years after deaths, families are told circumstances
07/31/06 Reuters: Gunmen kill advisor to the health minister
07/31/06 Reuters: Gunmen kill brigadier in the Iraqi National Intelligence Service
07/31/06 Reuters: Two wormen killed by gunmen
07/31/06 Xinhua: Car bomb hits Iraqi police patrol in Baghdad
07/31/06 BBC: Baghdad gunmen kidnap 25 people
07/31/06 AFP: Four shot dead in Iraq
07/30/06 AP: Iraqi cleric demands ceasefire in Lebanon or else
07/30/06 Reuters: 15 bodies found in baghdad (Update)
07/30/06 Reuters; Policeman killed in Baiji
07/30/06 Reuters: Roadside bomb kills 4, wounds 11 in Baghdad
07/30/06 KUNA: Three policemen injured in car bomb explosion in Mosul
07/30/06 AP: U.S. airstrike kills two militants amid fresh violence
07/30/06 AP: Shake-Up Expected for Al-Maliki’s Iraq Government
07/30/06 dpa: Bomb Kills Five Near Baghdad
07/30/06 Reuters: Gunmen kidnap truck driver in Falluja
07/30/06 Reuters: Three policemen seriously wounded in Mosul
Sam, do you have some kind of point with the news items? I’m just curious.
“Brilliant. I think that’s progress. Let’s take it as a given that Hezbollah’s actions — lobbing missiles into Israeli territory — are an atrocity;”
Oh, lets not stop there. That’s one violation of the rules of war. Let’s keep in mind that Hezbollah:
-Refused to disarm as per UN mandates despite that Israel fulfilled theirs by withdrawing.
-Smuggled more weapons, including thousands of rockets, into Lebanon in direct violation of that same agreement
-Refuses to wear uniforms identifying itself as distinct military force
-Mixes itself into the general population of Lebanon, locating its soldiers and weapons in residential areas
-Invaded Israel from Lebanon as a rogue force when a state of peace had existed between the two nations (If they were NOT a rogue that means Lebanon is complicit. Take your pick)
-Has kept the soldiers they kidnapped incommunicado from anyone, including the Red Cross/Crescent
I am sure I am missing a few, but you get the idea.
Perhaps before you try to get Israel to confess its supposed sins, it would be good to make sure you gave an honest assessment of the group which started this current mess.
I’m not aware of anything in the Israeli inventory, short of alledged nuclear weapons, that would be “capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets.”
Quite. Bombs “capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets” come in two varieties: nuclear, and munitions ships that suffer horrible accidents. The Israelis haven’t used nuclear weapons, and I somehow doubt they are dropping munitions ships on southern Lebanon.
“They wouldn’t irradiate Palestine.”
Oh hell yes they would. Unlike guilt-addled western liberals, terrorists have no problem denying responsibility for any action they take, from killing civilians to butchering their own families. They would gladly set off a nuke in the middle of the West Bank, or even in the middle of Beirut, if the fallout would claim at least one Israeli life.
You just can’t realize that Muslims don’t think like liberals do. They not only care nothing for reason or logic, but actively seek to eliminate it by any means necessary (including pretending to care about reason and logic). Understand that, and the Middle East will become a lot less magical and mysterious.
See how the Israeli government lies:
U.N. Aid Convoys to Lebanon Delayed
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: August 1, 2006
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Mideast-Fighting-Aid.html
[..]
On Saturday, Israeli government spokesman Avi Pazner blamed Hezbollah guerrillas for blocking convoys, saying they are ”deliberately preventing the transfer of medical aid and of food … to create a humanitarian crisis, which they want to blame Israel for.”
The top U.N. humanitarian coordinator in Lebanon, Mona Hammam, said convoys so far had met ”no problems” from Hezbollah.
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/world/AP-Mideast-Fighting-Aid.html
“Does that excuse Israel when it’s committed an atrocity? No.”
EVERYONE on this blog would give the same answer.
from killing civilians to butchering their own families. This is the birthstone of Islam. Read about the life of Muhammad.
“See how the Israeli government lies:”
No, I read the entire article and I don’t. Why don’t you try to spell it out.
Bret Stephens in the Wall Street Journal has a grim prognosis: Israel is losing this war.
Israel Is Losing This War
August 1, 2006; Page A13
WALL STREET JOURNAL
by Bret Stephens
Israel is losing this war.
This is not to say that it will lose the war, or that the war was
unwinnable to start with. But if it keeps going as it is, Israel is
headed for the greatest military humiliation in its history.
“You don’t get much more Washington Establishment than Richard N. Haass, who was Bush’s first-term State Department policy planning director and now leads the Council on Foreign Relations. And he apparently finds Bush’s position laughable. Literally.
Peter Baker writes in the Washington Post that Haass “laughed at the president’s public optimism. ‘An opportunity?’ Haass said with an incredulous tone. ‘Lord, spare me. I don’t laugh a lot. That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard in a long time. If this is an opportunity, what’s Iraq? A once-in-a-lifetime chance?'”
The boy king’s rule has been an unmitigated disaster for the U.S. and for the world. The U.S. has lost all credibility and moral authority in the world. There’s no hope until the worst president in U.S. history can be replaced in 2008.
Nyomythus, you said “Does that excuse Israel when it’s committed an atrocity? No.
“EVERYONE on this blog would give the same answer.”
I think not. Plenty of people here agree that Israeli atrocities are a necessary part of that overarching cause, the great and magnificent WOT.
Weary G, the point is that whatever demonic qualities we assign to Hezbollah, we (the U.S. and the West, through our proxy, the IDF), are responsible for our own actions.
Watch the multiple posts ‘bird.
Israel has the right of self defense and is not involved in the systematic atrocity business that your fevered imagination and your political bias requires.
Your efforts here are futile, as a cursory reading of the comments should reveal to anyone not as deluded as yourself.
Tatterdemalian, you’re outta your mind if you think they’d irradiate Palestine.
“There’s no hope until the worst president in U.S. history can be replaced in 2008.”
If you think President Bush is harsh on the Sand Nazis, wait until you see President Giuliani.
anon–
It isn’t about radiating land, it is about the spiritual goal of killing Jews.
The Party of God (the Hezb’Allah) is composed of death worshipping religious fanatics. Nooooo, you say, impossible!
Have you listened to anything the Hezb’Allah’s sponsors in Iran like Rafsanjani and Ahmadinejad have been saying lately? Saying Israel will be wiped off the map in one storm, that it is a one bomb state, that Islam can win a nuclear war with the west, that it is their responsibility to create the apocalypse and so forth?
This isn’t about land, or prosperity, or education, or peace with these people. It is about religion, religion, religion, and religion. Now that most workers in the west are also proprietors, the left has adopted the most reactionary elements of the human race as its new proletariat.
Ironically, as we saw during the socialist revolution in Iran in 1979, the left is the first to get chopped of the revolutionary salami by their fundamentalist religious friends.
The left is too trusting and naive for its own good, and too arrogant to countenance truths which contradict its worldview. That’s a dangerous combination.
Tequila,
“Weary G, the point is that whatever demonic qualities we assign to Hezbollah, we (the U.S. and the West, through our proxy, the IDF), are responsible for our own actions.”
First, no one is assigning Hezbollah their demonic qualities. Their own actions and ideology do that quite well enough.
Second, I never said Israel, the west, the US, etc. are not responsible for their actions. You may have seen on other posts that I have said as much.
My point was in two related parts.
One, who is holding Hezbollah responsible for their many terrible actions, including those that started the current conflict? Why is up to Israel to stop the bombing and not up Hezbollah to return the soldiers and stop firing rockets? Israel said it would stop if those two things occurred. Why does Hezbollah get a pass on perpetuating the crisis?
Two, this skipping past Hezbollah’s crimes and culpability is an attempt to both shield them from any responsibility and heighten criticism and condemnation of Israel. It’s a desire to make Israel’s actions seem capricious and wanton by trying to portray those actions as occurring in a vacuum. If you do not supply the context in which the Israel response has occurred, it makes it much easier to paint them as careless, reactionary and callous, if not worse. This, of course, is the intent of many who don’t want to really resolve the crisis and the underlying issue, but to grind political axes.
Bottom line; You want to discuss Israeli, the western, US culpability? Fine. First, however, let’s all acknowledge Hezbollah’s which are blatant and obvious and which started this crisis in the first place. Many I bet are reluctant to do so because if forced weigh the blame objectively, Hezbollah comes out with a lion’s share.
We’re a wheeler-dealer people; it’s in our blood. We play hard to get, act totally unreachable, but that’s all just foreplay to sitting down and talking turkey. Nothing is intractable, there’s always a way. You walk away with something. I walk away with something. That’s how we do
things–doesn’t everybody?
We’re finally getting it through our complacent thick western skulls that the answer here is NO.
Some of us are catching on quicker than others, and we may have to give the laggards a General Patton slap-fest to help them catch up.
If it isn’t us, the enemy will be happy to oblige, and doubtless will.
Tatterdemalian, you’re outta your mind if you think they’d irradiate Palestine.
You are out of your mind if you think they wouldn’t.
This quote from Pity the Nation shows the love the Amal (Shia) and Palis (Sunni) have for each other:
The destruction of Sabra is so great that few not living below ground can have survived. The way in which Amal and the Palestinians fought in the corridors of the hospital for the old in Sabra while the patients were still there indicates that neither side cares too much for civilians caught in crossfire. The way in which the Palestinians build their houses over the bunkers must make civilian casualties inevitable. But they want it both ways. If you ask how many fighters they have they say all Palestinians are fighters, men, women, and children. But then they yell if a woman or child gets killed.
In fact, it shows the love they have for their own civilians. Shia Amal later fought Shia Hez, it’s love all around . . .
J.H. Bowden, you said: “If you think President Bush is harsh on the Sand Nazis, wait until you see President Giuliani.”
I’ll never see “President Giulani”. He’s a nonentity who was one of NY’s most-hated mayors until 9/11, when he achieved hero status by the simple method of staying awake for 48 hours and shoving his face in front of every TV camera he could find.
jeez, J.H. Bowden, my last post was “anonymous”; my mistake. I answered and posted without typing in my nom de net. Sorry. Completely unintentional.
Senescent wasp: “Watch the multiple posts ‘bird.
“Israel has the right of self defense and is not involved in the systematic atrocity business that your fevered imagination and your political bias requires.”
Thanks for your helpful warning about multiple posts. I’ve become aware of the fact that neo considers three consecutive posts over a period of three-quarters of an hour in the middle of the night to be spamming and grounds for expulsion. Though, as I’ve said, if the posts were from an Administration lickspittle, I think the result would have been different …
I never said Israel was involved in
“the systematic atrocity business”. I was questioning the knee-jerk response I see constantly that Israeli actions — whatever they me be — are justifiable in all circumstances and no matter what as an appropriate response.
I mean, “whatever they may be”.
Weary_G, you said: “Bottom line; You want to discuss Israeli, the western, US culpability? Fine. First, however, let’s all acknowledge Hezbollah’s which are blatant and obvious and which started this crisis in the first place. Many I bet are reluctant to do so because if forced weigh the blame objectively, Hezbollah comes out with a lion’s share.”
Okay. Let’s all acknowledge what you want us to. No problem. I’m not reluctant to do that; not in the slightest. I meant as much in my origanal post and expressed it in a shorthand way.
Accepting that, how about our responsibility for the conduct of Israel as our (the West’s) proxy?
Senescentwasp, I should thank you for addressing me as “‘bird”; it’s an improvement over the last time, when you called me “shitbird” and threatened my life. (Hey, don’t worry about it; I don’t take it seriously. It was all in fun.)
neo: Thank you for reinstating me. I don’t think you should have bounced me in the first place, but nevertheless … thanks.
(I was bounced for my particular transgression on another thread just at the point when senescentwasp had called me “shitbird” and threatened my life, and I was unable to respond.)
O.K. Weary et all.
Israel started this war this is a fact.
And you know it too. You purposely have left out the history between Israel, Hezbollah and Lebanon(and Palestine, for that matter).
Because once you do it’s all over.
How do I know this?
Have a look at all of the various pretext’s for war Israel has offered and they don’t wash.
1) Missles didn’t come down indiscriminately on Israel. Missles started raining down when Israel was firing missles on Palestine. And after Israel started bombing Lebanon. So we can easily discount that as a pretext.
2)We’ve seen quite clearly that Israel has violated Lebanese sovereignty whenever they please – so we can discount that as a valid reason.
3)UN resolution 1559 does not authorize Israel to bomb Lebanon. Only security council approval can do this(in prinicple – but if your going to flaunt 1559 and international law that you play by the rules. And we all know – and would like to forget apparently – that Israel is required by international law and in order to avoid further escalation to withdraw from territory it occuppies. Until that happens you can expect people to attack you. All the rest of the rubbish you twits write about Islam blah blah – is just rhetorical nonsense – the same lame arsed excuses that are used by Israel to avoid a negoiated settlement. Israel, with the crucial enablement of the U.S is a militarized state – it knows nothing else like the U.S. Israel fundamentally thinks that it can militarily negoiate a settlement, so that it doesn’t have to give up land it stole. “Israel only wants to live in peace” – is the most ridiculous phrase there is – for those with an IQ over 4.
Israel started this war. It escalated the conflict instead of seeking a dipolomatic solution.
That is fact. You can spin it anyway you want but that’s the way impartial people who know the history in the region will see it. And most of the world knows this.
You people think the more crap you can come up will change that fact, but it won’t.
What he said. (More or less).
How do you remove a message you’ve posted?
Well they are ready for war because that’s the path Israel has chosen. Withdrawing from territory like Israel has in Lebanon in 2000 and Gaza last year may seem like a more for peace – but it’s quite obvious that the reasons have nothing at all to do with seeking peace.
They are strategic moves. Gaza has no strategic value to Israel – it’s simply a prison. And when Israel controls it’s airspace while it has a fence around it and attacks at a whim than that pretty much says it all.
Lebanon the same thing. Israel continued to violate Lebanon’s sovereignty has major covert operations in Lebanon that can only be viewed as a continued desire to destablize the country – which those familiar with Israeli military strategy, has always been it’s primary goal- “divide and conquer”.
Morally Israel doesn’t have a leg to stand on. Fighting wars brings out the worst in everbody, to use a tired cliche – so yes I condemn it all – sucide bombers, IDF bombs, cluster bombs, Katushya’s, etc etc.
But one side is fighting for justice. And that’s obvious. The other is trying to conquer and destroy.
Not even debateable…
“But one side is fighting for justice. And that’s obvious. The other is trying to conquer and destroy. ”
Yes, but Israel is the one fighting for justice. If Israel had wanted to “conquer and destroy” Lebanon and/or Palestine, they would have done it long ago. This continued whining and moaning of Arabs about “occupation” completely ignores 5,000 years of history. Face it, the UN allowed and provided for the creation of Israel in 1948. Everything else that’s happened since then has been an attempt by Arabs to negate and destroy Israel. Any thinking person with a modicum of historical knowledge knows this, and all your ranting to the contrary does not change the situation a bit.
Yhamir, you still haven’t proven that no attacks were launched by Hezbollah until AFTER the IDF started bombing Lebanon.
No, it’s not a given. Prove it first.
My proof to the contrary includes Hezbollah’s attack on Israel in October 2000, just five months after the last IDF soldier left Lebanon. They kidnapped three soldiers stationed in Israel, one of whom, Omar Suaaed, was a Muslim, and all three of whom were executed without trial.
tequilamockingbird — put-the-crack-pipe —-down
Another potential discrepancy of the facts from Hezbollah massacre at Qana at Haaretz.com
“Lebanese hospital: Number of casualties from Qana air strike is 28, not 52…”
Yhamir,
You said: ‘Morally Israel doesn’t have a leg to stand on’
I say: Moral and Muslim said in the same breath constitutes an oxymoron. From the Paedophile Prophet to the Prophets of Death Islam has come full circle, and it is time that somebody did the bidding and kissed the ‘Kult of Death’ Goodbye!
You said:‘ Israel continued to violate Lebanon’s sovereignty…..’
I say: If you were to go by Prime Minister Siniora’s statement Lebanon is unable to control the Hezzies……in other words……Lebanon is a non-entity……so wheredoes this sovereignity stuff come in? Or is it something that is to be taken out only when Israel hits back.
You said:‘Israel fundamentally thinks that it can militarily negotiate a settlement, so that it doesn’t have to give up land it stole.
I say:When have the Arabs ever understood the language of reason? The Arab mind has for the past half century lived in a state of denial, one born out of sheer impotence and incompetence rather than any external factor. And so far as the stealing part goes,wouldn’t you agree that the Arab themselves are invaders in all of the Levant and all the other places of the world where ‘Kult of Death’ finds it’s adherents? Reclaiming the land from the forces of darkenss is what the Israelis have done. Atleast they have the only cultured state in the whole of the middle east which is administered by rule of law!
You said:‘Israel started this war….’
I say: Not anymore than Nassrallah is a reasonable man. He and his fellow adherents of the ‘Kult of Death’ need to be rewarded with the ultimate aim of their religion: A prompt meeting with Allah!
Whether Israel does it today or the U.S. is forced to do it tommorow or the Oh-So-Gentle Europeans the day after is a mere statistic!
With fervent hopes for the Apocalypse for the ‘Kult of Death’