Why did so many of the trees in Paradise survive the fire, when nearly all the homes were incinerated?
That question was asked recently several times on this blog, and this article provides a lucid answer.
I highly recommend the entire article. Since the November 8 fire, I’ve certainly learned far more about wildfires that threaten homes than I ever knew before. But that particular article is especially informative.
Here’s the part about the trees:
“[The Paradise fire] was an urban conflagration,” Pangburn [a member of the incident management team with the California Department of Forestry and Fire Protection] said. “It was structure-to-structure-to-structure ignition that carried the fire through this community.”…
Fires that spread from house to house generate a force of their own. Embers, broadcast by the wind, find dry leaves, igniting one structure then another, and the cycle is perpetuated block after block. Break that cycle and the fire quits, and destruction can be minimized.
Paradise, though, never had that chance. Defensible space and hardened structures could not have kept the firestorm, carried on gusts clocking in the low 50s and feeding on the homes and low-lying vegetation, from reducing the town to ash…
Most telling were the trees. Most of the pines that sheltered this community still had their canopies intact. The needles, yellowed from the intense heat, were not burned — evidence that the winds that morning had pushed the fire along so fast it never had a chance to rise into the trees. But as a surface fire, it lit up the homes that lay in its path.
“I don’t know if there was anything that could have been done to save Paradise,” Pangburn said. “It was some of the most intense fire behavior that I have ever witnessed.”
There is so much more in the article, with many suggestions for how communities should be built based on what we’ve learned from fires in recent years, that I can only repeat my recommendation that you read the whole thing.
On would think a tree would ignite more easily than a house, except perhaps for the high wind that kept the heat and flame low to the ground. This is a sad situation in an oh-so-ironically-named town. And now he rains are coming, and the mess that will be left by rain following a fire has to be seen to be believed. If it’s not the end times, it sure feels like it.
I don’t believe brick buildings would have burnt so much or so fast. They are “more expensive”, as well as uglier/ not fitting in well, in many forests.
But I’d argue any Federal Funds to “rebuild” should only be rebuilding with non-flammable material like brick, rock, or the ugliest of cement (or the nicest?).
I’m also wondering how many of the houses were, and were NOT, insured against fires (or other Acts of God); so who gets paid back by insurance and who suffers total loss?
It’s unfair to lose so much — Reality is unfair — it’s unwise to save insurance pennies to lose hundreds and thousands of dollars. The unfairness of reality, plus the excessively expensive/ painful lessons, lead many good people to want to help those who’ve lost so much. The urge to help is very good.
A big problem for civilization is that those who were most unwise are now most in need — and as a humane society, those in more need will get more help.
But I’d argue any Federal Funds to “rebuild” should only be rebuilding with non-flammable material like brick, rock, or the ugliest of cement (or the nicest?).
I agree. Cement block houses are very common in Florida, presumably because termites make them more economical. I should think they would be better replacements for the balloon construction so common in California. Shake roofs are already uninsurable in California. Metal roofs would be better with cement block construction.
Tom G et al:
Paradise was not a rich town, and a great many of the houses were old and not in good shape, or trailers. Many residents were in Paradise because they were poor or certainly not wealthy and it was one of the few affordable places anywhere around.
In addition, you virtually never see brick houses in California. I’m not sure why, but I’m sure there’s a reason. There is, I believe, a sort of fire-retarded stucco, as well as concrete. If and when they rebuild the town I imagine ther will take all those things into account (I plan to write a post on that). But much of Paradise was built in a time when that was not taken into account, and most residents did not have the money to upgrade or buy a spiffy new home. Paradise had been standing for a long time with that particular housing stock and a fire of such ferocity and magnitude was hardly expected by the residents. And if it is rebuilt to new standards, unless the government foots the bill I can’t imagine that too many of the former residents could afford to live there.
However, the town had grown in recent years. I would imagine that more of the newer homes survived, but I don’t know. One problem is that unless a homeowner has a lot of land around the house, it’s hard to create a big enough clear firebreak area around the house.
My experience with forest fires is limited to one (The Pelican Creek Fire) that I fought in Yellowstone National Park in 1953 and the Rat Creek fire that we survived near Leavenworth, WA in 1994, as well as several other fires in the Eastern WA area from 1994 to 2000. My experience in 1953 informed the choice of land where we built our house in 1993. I wanted to be out of the trees. I also wanted a good well and a metal roof. We still had to be alert for putting out embers that lit on our wood deck and the hay meadow around our house. It was a good choice of land considering the potential for forest fires on the east side of the Cascades. It saved our house.
I mentioned on an earlier thread that the AM radio station in Wenatchee, WA was an invaluable source of information during the 1994 fire. Looking at the fire situation in the various counties in the Sierra foothills, it’s obvious that they need a fire information system and a warning system that is relatively inexpensive and easy to implement. My suggestion would be for each county to have a dedicated AM station for fire information and evacuation.
Each little town would also be equipped with a warning signal. (Siren, whistle, air horn, or whatever the locals find useful.) As the fire season progresses the radio would transmit a loop of fire condition reports. People would check their radios daily and know what the fire danger is. If a fire gets going in the county, the county sheriff would notify towns in the vicinity to blow a single blast on their early warning system. Citizens would know this meant to listen to their AM radios for information about an active fire. The AM station would go live with constant updates about the situation. If the fire boss thinks the fire might endanger a town the notification would go out to blow a double blast on the emergency warning signal. That would mean prepare for a possible evacuation and listen to the AM radio for more information. If the fire boss decides an evacuation is necessary, the town would blow three blasts on the emergency signal and people would know to begin evacuation and listen to their AM radios for more instructions.
In emergencies information is invaluable. AM radios are cheap and can be battery powered so a loss of electricity doesn’t affect them. In 1994 we had a small radio with ear buds that we could carry on a belt loop. We were in touch even when we were out patrolling the perimeters of our property.
IMO, this system would provide an organized way to communicate with people and keep them informed during the fire season, and most importantly, during a time of evacuation.
Today most new homes in the Pacific Northwest are built with Hardi-plank siding. It’s a cement product that is fireproof and resistant to mold and mildew. If you use Hardi-plank siding/trim, a fireproof roof, double pane windows, not much flammable shrubbery on the property, and the houses aren’t too close together (100 feet) the house can be defended with a good garden hose. On the other hand, because of the Washington State Growth Management Act of 1994, homes here are being crowded together – 20 feet between homes in the typical new subdivision. This makes them more likely to burn when a neighboring house burns. The idea of the GMA was to slow urban growth into rural areas. What they have created is a fire hazard if the Pacific Northwest ever experiences a significant drought. (We’re in a drought right now, but compared to California we are still quite wet.)
Concrete block and brick construction is not optimal for areas subject to significant seismic forces (risks). Wooden construction with cement fiber siding may be better, IIRC a lot of the reduction of fire risk involves details of eaves, overhangs, landscaping, shutters on windows, and roofing materials. That is if you don’t go for a reinforced concrete home/pill box/bunker.
Neo:
Concrete block (cinder block) and brick construction don’t fare well in earthquakes. Neither do concrete buildings with tip-up wall slabs if they aren’t engineered properly.
Yes, of course, earthquakes. A problem in so much of California.
Referring to concrete block, I was wondering about new construction. The town is pretty much gone. Brick is rare in California, although I had a brick house with a basement in Los Angeles in 1966. Of course, housing stock is under stress in the state because of zoning restrictions and inflation of housing prices. The house I bought in South Pasadena in 1969 for $35,000, is now valued at $1.2 million. That drives people to these more remote areas. That house in South Pas was two story, 3 bedroom on a 50 x 100 foot lot.
This article has a lot of really interesting information on how houses burn, and how to “fireproof” them:
https://www.finehomebuilding.com/1995/06/01/fire-resistant-details
One line in it is that houses “burn from the inside out.” There’s so much foam in a house. It’s crazy. There so much that just melts and off gasses…
A lot of the people in Paradise will be totally screwed. One of the reasons that some people made out well after other fires was the increase in property values offset the cost of the house. People whose houses were destroyed but couldn’t afford to rebuild one, generally got a good chunk of change when selling the lot.
Paradise is where people moved who couldn’t afford to move anywhere else in California. Many lived in mobile homes, which are neither financed nor insured like normal houses. They’re not going to be able to replace them with stucco out hardee board sided houses.
There’s a company that makes prefab “modules” that are affordable-ish, and can be added together over time. *IF* a fireproof-ish versions of there modules could be made, that might help these people.
(California really screws mobile home dwellers something fierce. Most States do.)
BTW, Roxul (mineral wool insulation) is getting to a point where it is almost comparable in price to fiberglass insulation. Unfortunately, foam insulation (polyiso, etc.,) is still a lot cheaper.
I also think a siren like we had in tornado country would help. We asleep had tornado drills in the town I grew up in. Fire evacuation plans are nice and all, but if the people actually evacuating don’t know them and have never done it, how useful will it be?
About thing I noticed in one photo at some point: a small metal shed survived in someone’s yard.
That drives people to these more remote areas.
If they had any sense they would LEAVE CALIFORNIA.
Those of us with sense and no requirement to stay for a job, have left. We moved to Arizona two years ago. I have kids there. My younger son has kids in school and he is a Cal Fire fireman. His wife runs a very successful business from home. He can retire in a few years and she can run her business from anywhere. Once the kids are all college age, they plan to leave. Maybe when he retires. I helped him buy a condo 20 years ago and they have a house that is worth at least a million dollars. Good friends and neighbors of their’s sold out and moved to Atlanta two years ago.
His older brother is a trial lawyer in the Bay Area with the politics to match but he is now thinking about moving back to Orange County because he has kids in school. Bay Area schools are bad, I hear.
I have two daughters in CA. One is an FBI agent nearing retirement. She just sold her condo and moved in with her mother, my ex-wife, who has a house in Laguna Niguel that it probably worth nearly a million. It’s just crazy.
The other daughter is a lefty and into the art world but she bought 5 acres in northern Idaho so she might be thinking about moving.
The youngest lives in South Carolina.
California is just too crazy.
Butte County may be preparing to end property rights in Paradise.
Today, Butte County health officials are establishing a the legal predicate to stop residents of Paradise, CA , and surrounding region, from returning to live on their property following the devastating “Camp Fire” wildfire. The framework surrounds a regional “health advisory”; however, the objective appears to be blocking anyone from returning to live on their property for an undetermined period of time.
I’m assuming it is temporary but this is California.
The consequences of Jerry Brown’s politicization of California’s forestry policies and practices (cont.):
https://rwnofficial.com/jerry-brown-might-be-in-big-trouble-over-wildfires-heres-why/
MikeK — I’m sure you love your artsy lefty daughter, but please keep her from moving to Idaho. Too many lefties have already moved there and are ruining it. Boise is lost. Northern Idaho still is salvageable. But not if more people like your daughter move there and ruin it.
Can’t they just stay in the places they’ve destroyed?
Lee, her property is in the panhandle near Sandpoint. She is gradually getting to be more moderate politically, I think. Reality does that as one gets older.
That’s what happened to New Hampshire, though. All the Taxachusetts refugees brought their politics with them. However, they have tended to stay near the border except for the college towns like Hanover.
Oregon, for example, is quite conservative outside the college towns and Portland. Washington is much the same east of the Cascades.
Nee Yorkers ruined Vermont.
A recent piece in Forbes was written by a New Yorker who moved to Boise and was raving how wonderful it was. Affordable, blah, blah… It WAS wonderful — twenty years ago. Now it’s full of clowns like him, and all the Californians who escaped there.
When i first left California eight years ago, even though I was pretty conservative, I was still overly brainwashed from being there so long. It bugged me at first has badly zoning was done (not much). It took a conscious effort to let go of that stuff.
In New Hampshire, Vermont is considered the crazy uncle. Vermonters near the border send their kids to New Hampshire schools. Since New Hampshire (when I was there) had no sales tax, Vermonters all bought their cars in New Hampshire. I think Vermont finally eliminated sales tax on cars. Costco and WalMart wanted to build big stores in West Lebanon to appeal to the Vermonters, so the town made them pay for all the infrastructure improvements.
Pretty cold, though. Thanksgiving morning in 1994 was 26 below zero in Lyme.
Gerald Vanderleun (http://americandigest.org/wp/bring-out-your-dead/#comments) paints a vivid picture of the disaster about to befall Paradise.
A Cohen article describing the Los Alamos fire in 2000 describes why that is.https://www.fs.fed.us/rm/pubs_other/rmrs_2000_cohen_j001.pdf
Also, in the comments section of the American Digest post a commenter named Ghostsniper describes how he fire proofed his home in Florida. It’s that kind of thinking that gives you a chance of getting through a situation like this.
Not following these California fires in great detail or very intently, but I note that some reports say that this massive fire started off as a campfire that got out of control.
Since Al-Q and ISIS are reported to have advocated starting forest fires as a weapon of the Jihad, suspicious ol’ me can’t help wondering if any of the recent fires–here and there, all over the country, it seems–could possibly be the work of terrorists.
Given the government’s past performance in handling terrorist attacks–see Ft. Hood, and other “incidents” that appeared to be terrorist in origin but which were initially and, in some cases, are still denied by the government to be such (I’m thinking of TWA 800**)–even if a fire were deliberately started by a terrorist, I would not expect the government to say so.
The reasons being:
#1. Whichever the current Administration is, it does not want to have had a successful terrorist attack occur on it’s watch.
Or, if one or more such terrorist attacks have already occurred on it’s watch, it does not want to add another one to that total, to reflect badly on it’s competence to govern and to keep us safe.
#2. The always useful justification that, informing the public of the true state of affairs will cause “panic in the streets.”
**Recently I happened to attend a lecture on TWA 800 by a retired TWA airline pilot with more than 40 years experience, a pilot who had flown that very plane just a couple of days before it went down.
He knew that aircraft inside and out, was intimately involved in the crash investigation, was there on the ground by day 2, said he had interacted with all the main government officials, and was able to observe what was going on from within the investigation.
He presented a whole lot of evidence that indicated to him that a coverup was being put into place:
First and foremost, that the FBI–which had no real expertise in aircraft crashes—had, with official approval, muscled it’s way into being in charge of the investigation, deliberately marginalizing the expert NTSB crash investigators who were trained and had as their mission conducing such highly technical investigations.
The involvement of the CIA.
Incidents of parts of the reconstructed aircraft being removed at night.
Parts being deliberately cleaned of surface contaminants that were key clues in determining what happened.
Parts being moved from their original locations in the reconstructed aircraft, with their location tags being rewritten to identify their new location.
Evidence on surfaces that appeared to indicate an external source for the explosion.
A couple of frustrated and suspicious NTSB investigators who removed a small strip of seat cover to have the contaminants on it analyzed by an outside company who were criminally charged for “theft of government property” for doing so.
The fact that the testimony of the hundreds of witnesses who said that they had observed what they thought were missiles streaking through the sky toward the aircraft seconds before there was an explosion were never mentioned in the final report, but the testimony of just one person, who hadn’t seen what they thought they had seen, was.
Moreover, that while the official verdict was that vapor inside an interior fuel tank had inexplicably exploded, those trying to recreate this explosion in the laboratory were never able to do so, even when they pumped many times the supposed amount of vapor into the test tanks and, then, when there was no explosion, raised the temperature inside the tank far above what it was estimated to have been at the time of it’s supposed explosion, which still did not result in an explosion.
His final, and what I though was a very convincing piece of evidence?
There have been many instances in which all models of certain passenger or other aircraft have been temporarily grounded while some newly discovered, dangerous equipment problem was inspected for and corrected.
Yet, while more than a thousand passenger/commercial aircraft then flying had such an interior fuel tank, not one aircraft was grounded for inspection and/or repair/replacement of that supposedly dangerous tank.
This pilot mentioned two possible alternative explanations for what happened to TWA 800, and neither was that an interior fuel tank inexplicably exploded.
He never came right out and said which cause of this crash he believed was most likely, but he pointed to a few pieces of evidence.
One, to testimony that on the day of the crash a number of “swarthy” apparently Middle Eastern appearing men had rented a fishing boat, that radar had picked up what was presumably that boat in the area of the ocean where TWA was flying over that day, and that this chartered boat was later found, abandoned, at a Marina other than the one they had rented it at, and that it was completely “sanitized”–all surfaces very carefully wiped clean of all fingerprints, or other possible evidence.
Tell me, if you went on an inherently messy fishing trip, would you so thoroughly “sanitize“ your rented boat when you returned that not one trace of any surface contaminants or fingerprints were left on it? Would you, as well, just abandon the expensive charter boat at a different Marina than the one you rented it at, and likely incur all sorts of additional charges? I don’t think so.
Second, to the other key fact that the Navy had been conducting “live fire” exercises that involved firing missiles near the area where TWA 800 was apparently shot down.
So, either a possible terrorist attack, or an accidental shoot down by our own Navy, neither one of which the government would likely want to admit to.
I note that some reports say that this massive fire started off as a campfire that got out of control.
It’s pretty well established that it began with power lines. That is significant in that the Moorlach bill, which was passed unanimously in the legislature and vetoed by Brown would have required power lines be buried or a firebreak be maintained beneath them.
There was a campfire that started a big brush fire in Los Angeles a year or two ago. It was a homeless camp. Not this one, though.
I have heard that theory of the TWA 800 crash before.
Nelson DeMille wrote a novel about it called “Nightfall.”
Actually, there is a house design which is inexpensive, fire- and earthquake resistant. A wooden frame lined from outside by asbestos-cement sheets or cement strand board and inside by drywall, with spaces between filled by mineral wool or by a special concrete with gravel and sand partially replaced by polystyrene granules. The roof, of course, should be from roofing iron. This would make an urban conflagration like what happened in Paradise impossible. Storm cellars are also desirable as safe spaces to hide from the flames.
Storm cellars are also desirable as safe spaces to hide from the flames.
There are some issues with carbon monoxide, though.
Something like this might be included in a fire shelter.
Another reference in CO poisoning in wildfires.
To MikeK: Carbon monoxide is lighter than air and its concentrations at the open areas are not dangerous, especially in underground structures somewhat isolated from their surroundings. As a rule, it is dangerous only inside closed spaces with burning stuff inside.
The study does not indicate if the patients got their CO poisoning inside houses or on the open areas. This is important, since such poisoning inside rooms usually affects those sleeping on elevated beds under the ceiling, common in Russian wooden houses, or on the masonry stoves, but not those who slept on the floor.
The wildfires, which were on the island of Madeira, seem much like the Paradise fire.
CO poisoning is quite common in house fires.
I’m not suggesting that anyone try to stay in their home during one of these fire events. I referenced Ghostsniper’s ideas only as a way to save your house.
Lee–I does seem to be some kind of universal law that, after people have just had enough of any or all conditions in one state–say, high taxes, poor schools, over regulation, a bad business climate, insane gun and other laws, bad weather, crime, corrupt government officials and police, long commutes, and traffic congestion–and move to a different state, pretty soon many of them are voting for policies that will eventually result in the very same conditions that they fled from.
Meanwhile, of course, these transplants wreck the living conditions that the native inhabitants and many other transplants love, and which drew those transplants in the first place.
The trouble, of course, is that eventually you run out of new places to flee to.
Thus, for instance, if the United States devolves into violence and chaos, where can someone go to find safe refuge? This is no longer WWII, and the U.S. is no longer a safe refuge, far away over a hard to cross ocean.
So flee to Scandinavia, Western Europe, Australia, Canada, South America, Asia or Africa?
There really are no equivalent places–in terms of freedom, political and economic prosperity–left.
Sorry for the gloom and doom!
Have a happy thanksgiving.
America – long and still the Greatest Country on Earth.
Make America Great Again — a fine slogan, since the Dems want to denigrate so many Great things about America.
Dems have so much trouble: Is America Great? Was America Great? Even with slavery, and Dem Party Jim Crow KKK laws? (They usually leave off the Dem Party part.) If not, how can it be Great again?
So much to be thankful for — but imperfect America, and Great Americans, still have work to so. And like so many normal people, are a bit lazy and would rather have fun rather do the hard work like many prior generations did do.
Happy Thanksgiving – please give Thanks for America, for Due Process, for Separation of Church and State, for Separation of Powers, for Federal Laws and State Laws, for Good Judges, for Good Politicians.
In discussions, please focus on the goals: an America where everybody is Free – as long as they’re not physically hurting others. An America that celebrates Life, Human Life, Lives of people who choose to live their dreams — more than ever in all history.
A Rich America, where those who are responsible and work, and avoid sex outside of marriage, can buy their own homes and raise their families in safety and dignity, whatever race or class they came from
America, with the Greatest Ideals for a country, exceptional among those ever on Earth.
Sergey:
In the USA asbestos-based siding (used to be called Transite) is not legal anywhere. Hardiplank and Hardiboard is a portland cement based siding product that is fire resistant but even that is regulated in California as a potential carcinogen because it contains significant amounts of SiO2 (aka quartz). You have to use specific techniques/tools to lessen exposure to dust when cutting it (I’ve installed it).
Asbestos scare is an example of an unreasonable panic and ignorance. White asbestos is not a health hazard, it is widely used in Russia in construction for siding, roof tiles, thermal insulation and many other applications. Quartz is not a carcinogen either. To get a silicosis one need decades of exposure to dust in mines, so these fears are also widely exaggerated. In the Middle East sandstorms happen several times a year, when sand dust is suspended in air for days, but no increase in lung diseases is observed.
Environmentalists are the most biologically ignorant pressure groups everywhere, but in California they are especially aggressive and vocal and the harm they inflict is especially damaging.
Asbestos health effects are not all a “scare or hype.” Regarding asbestos, it is true that the specific mineral involved makes a big difference but that is moot at this point. You cannot buy or use asbestos in building materials in the USA. This ain’t the Soviet Union, although California is trying hard to catch up.
These health effects are reported in epidemiological studies that do not differentiate chrysotile asbestos from amphibolite asbestos, since many commercially available batches are of the mixed kind. But as was established in experimental studies, residence time of the asbestos fibers in lungs for the latter is about 20-30 times longer than for the former due to the form of the fibers: spiral for amphibolite variety and flat for chrysotile. This is a crucial difference since our lungs have natural mechanisms of cleaning themselves from any particulate matter, and only when these mechanisms get overwhelmed the harmful effects could be expected. Israel also is not the Soviet Union, but asbestos is a very prominent building material there, almost all caravans and temporary dwellings are made from asbestos-derived materials, which makes sense in a very arid and hot climate with high fire hazard, not much different from California.
I also remind that there is a world of difference between “potentially cancerogenic” as shown in animal experimentation with rats and mice, and actually cancerogenic for humans. There are thousands of potentially cancerogenic substances widely used in industry, farming and even for domestic needs, but only very few of them are actually cancerogenic for humans. But this distinction is completely absent in popular presentation of science, which allows environmentalists to raise the alarm and demand ban on use of perfectly innocuous stuff, like common pesticides and herbicides. The mechanisms of tumorogenesis in humans are totally different from those in short-lived animals, so such extrapolation of animal studies on humans makes no biological sense.
Sergey:
That is all true regarding asbestos-form minerals (ampiboles and possibly some zeolites). It was argued in the geologial literature in the 1980s when Canadian producers fought the ban on all asbestos because the varieties they produced were, they felt, not carcinogenic. The “Canadian” argument lost. So now the optical microscopy test is based on the aspect ratio (length/width) of the fibrous mineral in the sample IIRC.
An example of the small animal carcinogen large animal (human) non carcinogen effect is TCE (trichloroethylene) in groundwater, IIRC TCE is a carcinogen in mice. but not in rats, and not in humans, but many, many, many groundwater remediation projects have been required to remove TCE from groundwater to “protect” public health. So even the small animal to large animal approach to environmental toxicology is not without flaws. In some ways the environmental movement is a affliction of the wealthy, burning other peoples money to protect their “health” from very small or nonexistent risks. But this is the USA.
Lee> — The is no private fire insurance available for places like Paradise. the state strong-armed private insurers to participate in something called the California FAIR Plan, which issues limited fire insurance on a very restrictive basis. I have no idea how much it costs. And after the fires will come the mudslides, which FAIR does not insure against. Actually, considering the fires, mudslides and earthquakes, geographically, California is a lousy place to live. (Read John McPhee’s essay, “California Against the Mountains”.) It’s just that the climate is so wonderful, everyone, from Chinese billionaires to homeless people, wants to live here. You just have to fight like hell to keep your brain from turning into mush.
Actually, not all of California is so bad. We don’t permit things like wildfires and mudslides in Beverly Hills.
om — As you say, “the environmental movement is a affliction of the wealthy, burning other peoples money to protect their “health” from very small or nonexistent risks.” If you don’t work with asbestos without the proper safety equipment, the chances of your getting asbestosis or other diseases from it are virtually nil. But its fire-resisting characteristics are unmatched. Nothing could “fireproof” against burning jet fuel, but asbestos would have held longer, enabling more people to have gotten out of the World Trade Towers before they collapsed. But hey, what’s more important, a mouse getting cancer or people dying in a fire?
The problem with an underground fire shelter is not the carbon monoxide but the possibility of the fire sucking out all the oxygen. It’s not impossible to build one that might not happen to, but odds are that the average person would not be able to attend it.
Jolly good discussion by well-informed folks.
Thanks!