Comments

Elizabeth Warren’s DNA results — 78 Comments

1. I’m 1/32 Wyandotte. I’m writing to Harvard tonight. I could certainly teach a course for a couple years for $700,000.

2. To make it worse I’m reading reports that the testing facility didn’t use Native American DNA for comparison but instead used Central American, or Mexican, DNA. Did her ggggranddaddy cross the border legally?

3. According to a tweet from The Daily Beast, “Yes, She is Native American”, and clueless leftists and the cretins who populate the MSM wonder why distrust of the media among thinking Americans is so pervasive!

4. I wonder if these people even know or have met any real Indians.

   Actually, I doubt it. I have, Canadian Mohawks, and Ojibwa and there is no mistaking an American Indian when you meet him or her.

   I also have cousins who had what I believe to be on the testimony and description of my aunt (paternal uncle’s wife) to have been that almost mythological ancestral specimen: the full blooded Cherokee from western Missouri.

   So that means that among the 8 great grandparents of my cousins, all the other grandparents being Irish (on the “her side”) or Anglo-Saxon on the his side, one was visually identifiable as Indian. Although the photos I have seen of this aunt’s mother seem not to look Indian at all, the aunt herself (as a granddaughter), had as a young woman a dark haired Irish-Indian look that may be familiar to some of you who have lived in or have relations in the Oklahoma, Missouri, or even Arkansas area. Of the 5, 1/8th “Cherokee” cousins, 2 males are blond, one male dark haired, and only the two dark haired females, as they have aged and put on considerable weight, could be construed as bearing any plausible resemblance to someone having American Indian ancestry.

   Less than 1/8 is NOTHING.

5. The other side of the coin is her demand that Trump honor his “promise” to donate $1 million to a charity of her choice. Ann Althouse does a significant lawyer-ese analysis of Trump’s claim that he never promised any such thing:

   . . .here’s the text, because Trump did say “you better read that again.” And reading is great for the kind of textualism that any lawsuit to enforce a contract would have to focus on

   [snip]

   . . . the conditions for accepting the offer by taking the test have not yet arisen.

   That Warren is an attorney and misses (or ignores) this point is also telling.

   The link (post at 10/15/18 @ 1:21 pm):

   https://althouse.blogspot.com/

6. Here we go again. The Left will say Trump is wrong when he is 99.9% proven to be right and say democrats are right when it is proven they are 99.9% to be wrong. relativism is an ideology with the intent to dial humanity back to a time before enlightenment. Evil breeds in the the uncertainty of reality that nothing can ever be proven 100%, human kind advanced from the dark age to enlightenment by creating reasoning mechanisms to resolve disputes that certainty could never be achieved by scientifically determining what is more likely to be the truth and not, assigning a probability and take things that are overwhelming more likely to be true to be the truth. Socialism wants to scrub all that and go back to the dark age when people determine the truth by how they feel and which result is more beneficial to their agenda. socialism is antiscience dresses up as scientific with pseudo scientific half truth evidence provided by junk scientist using ever adjusting models and manipulative data to manufacture whatever results they want as evidence to push their twisted agenda.

7. How much neanderthal dna does she have? Is she running as the native american candidate? This will be good enough for democrat women so they can vote for her instead of bernie while they wait for alexandra ocasio-cortez to turn 35.

8. “The other side of the coin is her demand that Trump honor his “promise” to donate $1 million to a charity of her choice. “

   In a spirit of good will and in recognition of her “nice try” fail, Trump should donate 0.78 percent of his offer, in her name, to a charity of his choice.

   Perhaps to a fund for Assyrian Christians, or maybe Kurdish orphans, or maybe as seed money to found a “Native American’s for Trump” foundation.

9. Off topic, but as we are talking “Indians”, I saw this bumper sticker the other day…….

   “Ask an Indian what happens to your Society and Culture when you don’t control your borders and allow massive immigration”.

10. I think what some people miss, is that the family legend of your uncle marrying a native-american has nothing to do with your DNA because… well… you’re not descended from your uncle or your uncle’s wife! Add as many ‘greats’ as you want, we are not descended from our uncles or aunts.

11. Imagine getting a DNA testing done to determine if the son your cheating girlfriend claimed to be yours really yours and the result came back that your son has a 1/64 to 1/1024 chance to be yours, what the heck does that even mean? I don’t know a thing about DNA testing but the whole thing sounds very bogus, either you have the Indian code in your DNA or not, how the heck could you have something as rangy as 1/64 to 1/1024 and whatever equations they used in the exam relied on you letting them know whether you have native ancestors 6 to 10 generations prior. Isn’t that kind of defeating the purpose to get the test done to learn about your ancestry from whatever in your DNA then the test actually relies on you to feed them information about your ancestry, it makes no sense.

12. What the heck does a hypothetical one-eighth Cherokee woman even look like, if (Ms high cheek bones Warren) she supposedly looks at all as if she has some discernible “native American” traits? … and even then, only on a “plausible” (as opposed to genetically confirmed) phenotype trait expression.

    Well, the one eighth Cherokee females I personally know, and who might be said to manifest some aspect of Native American ancestry would look somewhat like Bobbie Gentry, or resemble some of those dark haired 1950s actresses who played in the (boring but famous) Jimmy Stewart color westerns. Not that any of them actually had any Native American ancestry in fact.

    Now, so when we get down from one eighth, to eight-tenths of one percent …

13. I’m drawn to the assertion that this thin as a reed link is to “single ancestor going back 6-10 generations”. That seems like a very wide range that significantly undermines the strength of the claim. Then again, I’m no geneticist so what do I know?

    According to 23andme, 4% of my overall DNA is Neanderthal, which puts me in the 89th percentile. Otherwise 89% British & Irish, 0.2% Finnish, and 100% European. This means I don’t get to check any of the beneficial boxes on government forms and job applications.

14. Just saw a clip from a few years ago, of Warren telling an interviewer, with some passion, about how her paternal grandparents didn’t want to let her father and mother marry because they knew and objected to the fact that her mother had Cherokee and Delaware Indian blood, and that this contentious family issue was still alive at her mother’s funeral, and lived on to that day.

    This is just a crock. Either this controversy about “Indian blood” never happened or, if it did, her family members were totally mistaken about any “Indian blood.”

    Moreover, in view of Warren’s supposed 1/1024th Indian blood, any claim she made to have been an actual Indian is a lie, and an very conscious and outright fraud, designed solely to make her a more attractive candidate for a University under Federal pressure to hire minorities, giving her a significant advantage over other potential applicants for the position she was given (and her phony claim of being an Indian may well have prevented an actual Indian or other minority from getting that position).

    I note, in passing, that Yale had and still has a social club for American Indians of long standing, and that members said that during her time at Yale Warren never once attended any of their meetings or functions.

    Moreover, there are a number of problems with this result.

    First of all, given the behavior of today’s politicians, are we to just take for granted that the sample tested was from Elizabeth Warren?

    Next, there is her choice of this particular Professor to do the test, why him–in particular–instead of sending her sample to presumably neutral Ancestry, Family Tree DNA. My Heritage, or 23 and Me? For instance, did she in some way know that he would bend every effort to see that she got a “good” result that—to some extent–backed up her claims?

    Then, there is the fact that she has such a small percentage of Indian blood that, in genetic testing terms, it is classified as insignificant “noise” i.e. at our present state of knowledge it cannot be proven at all whether such a small percentage of Indian blood is not simply random “background noise.”

15. I have a Shawnee ancester, but that does not make me an aboriginal American. However, my European ancesters can to the new world in the 1740s which means I am a native American. Warren dances with her cheekbones is a fraud.

16. AceOfSpades puts it well (http://ace.mu.nu/archives/377577.php) . . .

    “Elizabeth ‘Fauxcahontas’ Warren has released the results of her DNA test, and, get this, her Amerindian DNA content is variously estimated at 1/64th, 1/512th, or 1/1024th of the total. . . . But my question is, since progressives and the media (BIRM) now accept DNA results (no matter how infinitesimally small) to determine ethnic identity, how about we use a similar blood test to determine gender identity? Seems fair, right? . . . Because science.”

17. Sorry, make that Harvard not Yale.

18. Funny how she identifies with 1 out of 1024 ancestor who might have been a native American instead of the other 1023 whiter than snow Europeans.

19. “I think what some people miss, is that the family legend of your uncle marrying a native-american has nothing to do with your DNA because… well… you’re not descended from your uncle or your uncle’s wife! Add as many ‘greats’ as you want, we are not descended from our uncles or aunts.”

    Except for the fact that the wish is for some people father to the thought. And that seems to outweigh logic, or the drudgery of actual thinking or precise recall.

    So in the spirit of “me too-ism” another cousin of mine, not to be outdone by the warm feelings of self-congratulations resultant from having the Native American ancestry that our shared cousins had, but we did not, declared that she had been told that our great grandmother was as brown as an Indian, and therefore we had Indian ancestry too.

    No. I informed her that I had the family tree to the Revolution and further back and that for good or for ill or for in-between no such ancestor existed. The females had Anglo-Scotch ancestry, the males, English.

    “But Grandma said that her mother would get dark in the summer” she said vaguely. Then it came to me. What my grandmother had said about her former schoolteacher mother, was that she had a spectacular garden, and she worked it so diligently in the summer …” Fill in the blank.

    Cousin: “Ohhhhh ….”

    There are so many fake Indians in this country it makes you want to puke. Almost as bad as the drunken ex-hippy fake Vietnam Vets dressed up in field coats or fatigue jackets.

20. She has on her website that her father’s family did not want him to marry her mother because of Native American blood. So, where did that come from if the connection was farther back than settlers arrived in America?

21. okay, I think I figured out what exactly her DNA testing result means. Basically it has been determined that there is a possibility going back 10 generations prior one and only one of Warren’s ancestors could be native American but the test lacked the precision to possibly pin point which generation was that ancestor. The exam did give the range that such ancestor could be from as early as the 10th generation to as recent as the 6th (Great Great Great Great Grand parent)

    Bobbi:
    Funny how her grandfathers could be so against the union between her father and mother only because one of her Great Great Great Grand parent or some ancestor even earlier possibly was a native American.

22. My own theory is that there was some other reason the father’s family objected to the marriage, a reason which her parents did not wish to discuss, so they came up with the “Indian” explanation for the children.

23. In honor of dear Elizabeth

    Most truly an American native or Native American as the case may or may not be.

    By the way, I’m giving this away, since I had copied the catchy theme song for future use even if all traces of it are SJW purged … I’ve already got it.

24. It is quite appalling that a snow white woman stole valuable but limited resources and opportunities allocated to helping abject minorities through pretending to be a minority herself just because one and only one of her ancestors going back 10 generations possibly had some native American blood and such exploitation is being praised by the left. If imperialism means western people going into third world countries to steal their resource from them then what Warren did could be classified as local imperialism. Rachel Dolezal probably has more African blood in her than Warren with Native American’s

25. My family lore also asserts that my great-great grandmother was Native American; also, that we don’t know much about her history because being an Indian was considered to be undesirable at the time. I do have a 5 generation picture from the late 1950s that lines us up, from me as a baby up to this great-great grandmother. I dunno; my mom and I are green-eyed blondes and my great and great-great grandmothers have thick, black hair, brownish skin, and wide (raw) cheekbones. So I never really doubted that Warren’s family told tales of a Native ancestor, much as my family has—but of course, So WHAT?

26. Richard..bumper sticker…”“Ask an Indian what happens to your Society and Culture when you don’t control your borders and allow massive immigration”.

    There’s an interesting passage in one of George MacDonald Fraser’s ‘Flashman’ novels.

    “You see, before ’49, if you were a Crow or an Arapaho or a Cheyenne, you might sit on a ridge and watch the schooners crawl across the empty prairie, one at a time, perhaps only a solitary train in a week. You might trade with it, or take a slap at it for devilment, to run off a few horses, but mostly you’d leave it alone, since it was doing no harm, apart from reducing the grazing along the North Platte or the Arkansas, and thinning the game a little. But the Indian just had to turn his back and ride a few miles to be in clear country which the caravans never touched, the bison herds ran free, and game abounded. There was still plenty for everyone.

    It was different after ’49. A hundred thousand folk need a power of meat and wood and fodder; they must forage wide on either side of the trail, in what to them is virgin country, and wreak havoc among the buffalo and smaller game; they must strip the grazing to its roots–and it ain’t in human nature for them to think, in all that vastness, what it may mean for those few figures sitting on the ridge over yonder…but if you are those figures, Crow or Arapaho or Cheyenne, watching the torrent that was once a trickle, seeing it despoil the Plains on which you depend for life, and guess that it’s going to get bigger by the year, and that what was once a novelty is now a menace–what d’you do? Precisely what the squire in his Leicestershire acres, or his New England meadow, would do if crowds of noisy, selfish foreigners began to trek through ruining the place. Remonstrate–and when that don’t work, because the intruders can’t see what damage they’re doing, and don’t care anyway–what d’you do then? I’ll tell you; Leicestershire squire, New England farmer, Cheyenne Dog-Soldier or Kiowa Hose-Cap, you see that there’s only one thing for it: you put your paint on.”

    See my post Two Views of Immigration:

    https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/49641.html

27. “My family lore also asserts that my great-great grandmother was Native American; also, that we don’t know much about her history because being an Indian was considered to be undesirable at the time. I do have a 5 generation picture from the late 1950s that lines us up, from me as a baby up to this great-great grandmother. I dunno; my mom and I are green-eyed blondes and my great and great-great grandmothers have thick, black hair, brownish skin, and wide (raw) cheekbones. So I never really doubted that Warren’s family told tales of a Native ancestor, much as my family has—but of course, So WHAT?”

    “So what?” (and I do know how you really meant it)

    Well, in Warren’s case, and that on the most generous and undeservedly charitable interpretation: between one and five additional generations of dilution.

28. let’s assume for the sake of argument that Liawatha had an Indian ancestor 6-10 generations ago.
    that would make her a typical WASP who’s family came to the New World in the 17th century and married an Indian like John Rolfe did.
    But it puts to lies her stories of a Cherokee grandmother, her “Pow Wow Chow”, her cheekbones et al

29. My husband’s family has a pretty well-supported legend that his great-grandmother was the granddaughter of a Native American from a New York tribe. We’ve never been able to prove it for certain, but there are written materials from shortly after the time of her death that repeat the story and provide a name for the supposed ancestor. Recently my husband had his DNA done, and no Native American DNA showed up. That doesn’t necessarily mean anything, as parents only pass on half their DNA to their kids and, with so many generations of separation, the remaining percentage would have been tiny even if it was passed on. But in researching his family history on the DNA website, we actually found a photograph of the great-grandmother in question as a young woman (along with repetitions of the family legend by many distant cousins we’ve never met). If appearance is anything to go by, the story seems to be true. Her rather dark skin, very dark eyes and hair and very broad cheekbones — and also something unidentifiable in her expression — look strikingly like the faces of modern-day Native Americans who live near here. (None of those facial characteristics are at all evident in any of my husband’s living relations!) So, we’re guessing that the story is true.

    I do plan to dig around in genealogical records in the town where she was born someday, to see if I can find out any more. But, as RigelDog said, so WHAT? It makes a fun story, but that’s about it. That Elizabeth Warren thinks that an equivalent tiny fraction of many-generations-back inheritance has any meaning at all tells me a great deal about her, and none of it good.

30. Is a DNA test like SAT you can take as many time as you want until you get a satisfactory result?

    It begs to question how times have Warren taken the test and failed to identify any Cherokee heritage in her until she found a progression who were willing to discard any professionalism and went the distant to manipulate the exams to get the results she wanted.

31. Its complicated..
    which is why Elvis Presley is an American Indian jew on his mothers side..
    [seriously]

32. “At some point in the past, a branch of east Asians and a branch of western Eurasians met each other and had sex a lot,” says paleogeneticist Eske Willerslev at the University of Copenhagen
    -=-=-=-
    “Genetically, this individual had no east Asian resemblance but looked like Europeans and people from west Asia,” says Willerslev. “But the thing that was really mind-blowing was that there were signatures you only see in today’s Native Americans.” This signal is consistent among peoples from across the Americas, implying that it could not have come from European settlers who arrived after Christopher Columbus. Instead, it must reflect an ancient ancestry.

    The Mal’ta boy’s genome showed that Native Americans can trace 14% to 38% of their ancestry back to western Eurasia

    “Great Surprise”—Native Americans Have West Eurasian Origins
    Oldest human genome reveals less of an East Asian ancestry than thought.

    The arm bone of a three-year-old boy from the Mal’ta site near the shores of Lake Baikal in south-central Siberia (map) yielded what may be the oldest genome of modern humans ever sequenced.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    but its more complicated than that… a lot more…

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Montana Boy Bones Show Ancestral Links to Europe

    Despite general resistance, representatives of tribes in the US recently gave their blessing for DNA analysis of the remains of a Stone Age child. Research conducted on the boy’s genes indicate that Native Americans have European roots.

    a team of scientists led by the Danish geneticist Eske Willerslev has analyzed the boy’s origins and discovered that he descends from a Siberian tribe with roots tracing back to Europe. Some of the boy’s ancestors are likely even to have lived in present-day Germany.

    This earned Willerslev’s team an astounding publishing achievement in just 100 days: The decoding of the genomes of the oldest analyzed members of homo sapiens in both the Old and the New Worlds.

    [tv science is too busy telling us we are going to die… too bad I dont run a science show…heh]

    and pretty colors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_history_of_indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas#/media/File:World_Map_of_Y-DNA_Haplogroups.png

33. Why is it that 99% of whites bragging about their aboriginal new world heritage choose to identify as Cherokee? Answer: The Cherokees are the ‘civilized’ tribe. The Cherokee are even mentioned in 60s pop songs, see Paul Revere and the Raiders.

34. “Life ain’t easy for a boy named Sioux.”

    Johnny Cash?

35. QUOTE:

    Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr.

    TAHLEQUAH, Okla. — Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. issued the following statement Monday in response to Senator Elizabeth Warren’s DNA test claiming Native Heritage:

    “A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America,” Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. “Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”

    http://www.cherokee.org/News/Stories/20181015_Cherokee-Nation-responds-to-Senator-Warrens-DNA-test

    .

    Samizdata is all over this:

    https://www.samizdata.net/2018/10/even-unto-the-10th-generation-depending-on-what-the-meaning-of-is-is/

    E.g., see the comment by bobby at

    https://www.samizdata.net/2018/10/even-unto-the-10th-generation-depending-on-what-the-meaning-of-is-is/#comment-760336

    “The test used proxies for AmIndian DNA, because there’s not enough AmIndian DNA in the database he used. Due to a paucity of AmIndian DNA for comparison purposes, the Stanford professor who performed the analysis for Warren decided to use the DNA of Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians INSTEAD OF DNA from AmIndians.”

    He goes on to quote from an article at the Boston Globe:

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/10/15/warren-addresses-native-american-issue/YEUaGzsefB0gPBe2AbmSVO/story.html

    “Detecting DNA for Native Americans is particularly tricky because there is an absence of Native American DNA available for comparison. This is in part because Native American leaders have asked tribal members not to participate in genetic databases.

    “The tribes have felt they have been exploited,” explained Lawrence Brody, a senior investigator with the Medical Genomics and Metabolic Genetics Branch at the National Institutes of Health. “The amount of genetic data that is available from Native Americans is sparse.”

    To make up for the dearth of Native American DNA, Bustamante used samples from Mexico, Peru, and Colombia to stand in for Native American. That’s because scientists believe that the groups Americans refer to as Native American came to this land via the Bering Strait about 12,000 years ago and settled in what’s now America but also migrated further south. His report explained that the use of reference populations whose genetic material has been fully sequenced was designed “for maximal accuracy.”

    .

    Jim Hoft posts this about the AmerInd* factor that was actually found, from the A.P. via the Boston Globe:

    “Boston Globe Update and Correction: Elizabeth Warren Is 1/1,024 Native American… NOT 1/512”

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/10/boston-globe-update-and-correction-elizabeth-warren-is-1-1012-native-american-not-1-512/

    Although, as established by NIH, American Indian DNA isn’t even part of the DNA database….

    .

    *I am 100% Native American. So are you, dear reader, unless you are a first-generation immigrant. If we mean “American Indian,” than that’s what we should say.

    From context developed over the years, it seems to me that “AmerInd” is a designation that refers to people who were indigenous to the Americas before the Europeans came. At any rate, that’s what I mean by the term here.

36. QUOTE:

    Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr.

    TAHLEQUAH, Okla. — Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. issued the following statement Monday in response to Senator Elizabeth Warren’s DNA test claiming Native Heritage:

    “A DNA test is useless to determine tribal citizenship. Current DNA tests do not even distinguish whether a person’s ancestors were indigenous to North or South America,” Cherokee Nation Secretary of State Chuck Hoskin Jr. said. “Sovereign tribal nations set their own legal requirements for citizenship, and while DNA tests can be used to determine lineage, such as paternity to an individual, it is not evidence for tribal affiliation. Using a DNA test to lay claim to any connection to the Cherokee Nation or any tribal nation, even vaguely, is inappropriate and wrong. It makes a mockery out of DNA tests and its legitimate uses while also dishonoring legitimate tribal governments and their citizens, whose ancestors are well documented and whose heritage is proven. Senator Warren is undermining tribal interests with her continued claims of tribal heritage.”

    http://www.cherokee.org/News/Stories/20181015_Cherokee-Nation-responds-to-Senator-Warrens-DNA-test

    .

    Samizdata is all over this:

    https://www.samizdata.net/2018/10/even-unto-the-10th-generation-depending-on-what-the-meaning-of-is-is/#comment-760352

    E.g., see the comment by bobby at

    https://www.samizdata.net/2018/10/even-unto-the-10th-generation-depending-on-what-the-meaning-of-is-is/#comment-760336

    “The test used proxies for AmIndian DNA, because there’s not enough AmIndian DNA in the database he used. Due to a paucity of AmIndian DNA for comparison purposes, the Stanford professor who performed the analysis for Warren decided to use the DNA of Mexicans, Peruvians, and Colombians INSTEAD OF DNA from AmIndians.”

    He goes on to quote from an article at the Boston Globe:

    https://www.bostonglobe.com/news/politics/2018/10/15/warren-addresses-native-american-issue/YEUaGzsefB0gPBe2AbmSVO/story.html

    “Detecting DNA for Native Americans is particularly tricky because there is an absence of Native American DNA available for comparison. This is in part because Native American leaders have asked tribal members not to participate in genetic databases.

    “The tribes have felt they have been exploited,” explained Lawrence Brody, a senior investigator with the Medical Genomics and Metabolic Genetics Branch at the National Institutes of Health. “The amount of genetic data that is available from Native Americans is sparse.”

    To make up for the dearth of Native American DNA, Bustamante used samples from Mexico, Peru, and Colombia to stand in for Native American. That’s because scientists believe that the groups Americans refer to as Native American came to this land via the Bering Strait about 12,000 years ago and settled in what’s now America but also migrated further south. His report explained that the use of reference populations whose genetic material has been fully sequenced was designed “for maximal accuracy.”

    .

    Jim Hoft posts this about the AmerInd* factor that was actually found, from the A.P. via the Boston Globe:

    “Boston Globe Update and Correction: Elizabeth Warren Is 1/1,024 Native American… NOT 1/512”

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/10/boston-globe-update-and-correction-elizabeth-warren-is-1-1012-native-american-not-1-512/

    Although, as established by NIH, American Indian DNA isn’t even part of the DNA database….

    .

    *I am 100% Native American. So are you, dear reader, unless you are a first-generation immigrant. If we mean “American Indian,” than that’s what we should say.

    From context developed over the years, it seems to me that “AmerInd” is a designation that refers to people who were indigenous to the Americas before the Europeans came. At any rate, that’s what I mean by the term here.

37. Neo, a few minutes ago I posted a comment with some more info (H/T samizdata.net), some of which is in your original posting. But it hasn’t appeared here, and when I tried again a minute or so ago WP told me I’d already posted it. Thought you should know. :>)

    Julie

38. Julie:

    I just rescued it from the spam folder. I’m not sure why it ended up in there, but perhaps it was the number of links—although the way I have the settings here, your comment didn’t have enough links that it should have been put in the spam folder for that.

39. Spam filters do not like well-documented comments, a.k.a. comments w links. I counted five links. Discus (spelling?) has spammed out links of mine with TWO links, so Neo’s spam filter is rather reasonable by comparison.

40. From the perspective of yesteryear, who understood each, including Trump?

    Fascinating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rU4W3yfd58&index=4&list=PLrn2ux_sSE25IdbneeZ3Z-zrtBCZOP3Xn

41. Gotta love that quote from the actual Cherokee Nation (too bad I cannot read the rest of it as I get a 404 error); I agree with them.

    For example, my own family has history in this country longer than it has been the United States (one of the earliest recorded arrivals was in Philadelphia in the late 1690s – Philly was just barely a city back then! I wonder what he was thinking when he arrived!? A German-speaking immigrant in a new city on a new continent).

    Given that long a family history in this country, I wouldn’t be surprised if my DNA test results would show other than white groups (native, black, etc.) to some extent, however small; but, I’ve never considered myself to be anything other than white.

    We’ve never heard of any family stories on any other ethnicity; so, I don’t really have the known heritage of anything other than German/English. (We used to open our Christmas stockings on Christmas Eve, not Christmas morning; but, then open big gifts on Christmas morning. And I still have to have pickled herring on New Year’s Day to bring in good luck for the coming new year. Both the Christmas eve opening of the stockings and the pickled herring, I grew up believing that was part of our German “heritage”)

    Should I take a DNA test and it shows black or native, should I then start to claim that I am black or native American? You know – go all Rachel Dolezal!

42. ” The Cherokee are even mentioned in 60s pop songs, see Paul Revere and the Raiders.”

    That was not Cher? Thank goodness, that I don’t have to blame all the songs I despise on her and Captain and Tennille alone.

    Oh wait … another absolute crap song by an imitation “Indian”; the queen of the gypsies, tramps and thieves, she also claims.

    I was going to offer a grandpa’s favorite as a mental scrub and cleanser. But the Charlie Burnet video of his band playing Cherokee … the one where they are really cranking it out on a stage set that looks like a mini Indian village, appears to have been cleansed itself.

43. charles:

    I fixed the link, and now it should work.

44. Thanks, Neo, and Gringo too. Samizdata has max of three links, but it never occurred to me that there’s a limit here. I didn’t even think about the Spambot until a few minutes ago (watching the Golden Girls, if that matters!).

45. Julie:

    Supposedly, I set the limit. Right now I have it set at 8, and I can change it anytime I want. But obviously, your comment had less than 8 links, so I’m not sure the number of links was the problem.

46. Thanks, Neo.

47. The latest news is that Dr. Bustamonte, the hand-picked expert who performed Warren’s DNA test, did not compare her DNA to American Indian samples, because the few samples of American Indian’s DNA that are available are insufficient to do such a test; unavailable because tribal leaders have asked American Indians not to contribute samples of their DNA to investigators, because of these tribal leader’s fear that Indians will be exploited.

    So, without any useful American Indian samples to test her DNA against, instead Bustamonte tested her sample against a combination of Mexican, Peruvian, and Columbian samples, on the theory that it was from these Southern populations that American Indian populations descended, as their ancestor population progressed over the Bearing Strait land bridge, down through North America, finally settling in Central and South America.

    Thus, whatever extremely minuscule portion of “Indian blood” Warren has, it is actually Mexican, Peruvian, or Columbian, and not American Indian.

48. Neo said: ” I used to think that Elizabeth Warren was smart.”

    My grandfather had a saying, “some of the stupidest people on earth are lawyers and school teachers.” Elizabeth Warren is a two-fer. Compare and contrast, her colleague Lawerance Tribe, who not only had his books ghostwritten but also included plagiarized content. He’s a highly respected named professor.

49. Paul in Boston:

    I went to a very well-respected law school. Granted, it was a long time ago. But I would say that although I didn’t think much of about 2 or 3 of my professors, the rest were exceptionally intelligent.

50. Artfl, that is very interesting info, as is the map. Thanks for the link.

51. “Alternatively, she thinks the American public is abysmally stupid.”
    Yep.

52. My family had a legend of Native American heritage. My great grandmother on my mother’s side was supposed to be the daughter of a half-breed Pawnee. She looked the part. Jet black hair, high cheekbones, and a hooked nose typical of American Indians. Her son, my grandfather also had the look. I have a picture of him at about age 65 (About 1942). Put him in buckskins and braid his hair and he could have passed for Iron Eyes Cody. So, we always believed we had some Indian DNA. But I never attempted to claim any social benefit from it, as Warren apparently did.

    When I contracted colon cancer and wet macular degeneration, both genetically inheritable diseases, I decided to have my DNA checked to see what my genetics were. I fully expected to see American Indian DNA along with northern European and possibly some Spanish.

    Well, I was right about the northern European (Viking/German/Scots)- more than 67%. The rest was percentages of West African, Ashkenazi Jew, Iberian, and Slav DNA with above average Neanderthal DNA. (Whatever that means.) But no Native American DNA. Our family legend was just that – a legend. I was amazed. My great grandmother and grandfather sure looked the part. And who was my great grandmother’s father? Apparently not a half-breed Pawnee at all. So much for legends.

    Well, northern Europeans, especially Scandinavians, are genetically disposed to wet macular degeneration. That told me where mine probably came from. The colon cancer? No clue.

    DNA testing is interesting, but probably raises more questions than it can answer at this point.

53. JJ – your ancestor could be exactly what you were told, but in the passing down of genetic material, his genes didn’t make the “cut” for your inheritance.
    And most modern humans have some admixture of H. Neanderthalensis.
    In fact, we have more connections to H. N. than Warren does to Amerinds (if, given the caveats, she actually has any at all).

    https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/neanderthal/
    “Everyone living outside of Africa today has a small amount of Neanderthal in them, carried as a living relic of these ancient encounters. A team of scientists comparing the full genomes of the two species concluded that most Europeans and Asians have approximately 2 percent Neanderthal DNA.”
    * * *
    DNW on October 15, 2018 at 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm said:
    I wonder if these people even know or have met any real Indians.

    Actually, I doubt it. I have, Canadian Mohawks, and Ojibwa and there is no mistaking an American Indian when you meet him or her.
    * * *
    You are right about full-blood or even down to 1/4.
    After that, it’s the happenstance of the DNA splitting and combining.

    FWIW, I do have a great-grandmother of quarter-blood, and her photos look it; so does her son (my grandad), but not all of his siblings.
    His grandkids (my generation) generally look like the Europeans we are (mostly English-Irish-Welsh), but masking and recessives are tricky: when a Diné friend of ours met one of our sons, she asked immediately if we had native heritage; he favors my Grandad more than any of the others.

    If you did the math, he is 1/64th Diné so meets the Warren Test for Minority Privilege; sure wish we had known all this when he was taking out school loans.

    For the win:
    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/bethbaumann/2018/10/15/ha-sen-hatch-mocks-elizabeth-warrens-dna-test-results-with-an-epic-tweet-n2528763

54. Put it this way – I don’t take this controversy very seriously. Warren’s ancestry or her claims about it are not what concerns me about her. It is her Social Democrat policies. I also presume her innocence of fraud in claiming Native American ancestry. Compared to Crooked Hillary, Fauxahontas is just someone on the left I strongly disagree with. For example, her recent proposal to require corporate boards to have 40% worker representation is taken directly from similar German regulations – and I think it just is culturally inappropriate in US business culture. But even more I think it demonstrates the unimaginative left believing that 40s German quasi socialist solutions can reform present day globalised companies. Trump’s revving the economy approach certainly helps disenfranchised American workers in a very American way. Hopefully we will not have to endure a president Warren in 2020.

55. My father’s family has a longstanding tradition that we are some fraction of Tuckahoe Indian. There are two problems, however:

    1. There is no such tribe, nor has there ever been. “‘Tuckahoe’ refers to the low-country, slave-owning plantation owners [of Virginia], with all of their economic, political, social, and English (mostly from Northern and Western England) ethnic traits.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuckahoe-Cohee)

    2. Turns out there were two guys named “William Lovely” running around Arkansas in the 1810s with different middle names. One was a Massachusetts-born U.S. Indian Agent behind the “Lovely Purchase of 1816”, and one was a barely literate Scotch-Irish backwoodsman from Virginia. We’re descended from the second one. And even if we were descended from the first one, he didn’t ever marry into the tribe; rather, he died on the job, and the local Cherokee semi-adopted his white widow from Massachusetts and let her keep living there when all the other white settlers were ordered out.

    To quote Tolkien, “the tale grew in the telling”. I haven’t had the heart to tell my 90-year-old father yet; he seems pretty sold on the legend.

56. Precisely what lgude said.

    On a more practical note, however, now that Chief Wahoo has been summarily retired, maybe Warren can be the Cleveland Indians’ new logo?

    (Can’t get more PC than that…and she’s not from Cleveland, either….)

57. “Alternatively….”

    Hey, it worked for Obama!!….
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/marc-thiessen-thanks-to-jonathan-gruber-for-revealing-obamacare-deception/2014/11/17/356514b2-6e72-11e4-893f-86bd390a3340_story.html?utm_term=.a1f983fb9509

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/katiepavlich/2014/11/10/obamacare-architect-yeah-we-lied-to-the-stupid-american-people-n1916605

    https://www.commdiginews.com/politics-2/jonathan-gruber-we-lied-about-obamacare-to-stupid-american-voters-29649/

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AEjr9WchNkg

58. On the topic of Warren’s intelligence, or lack thereof, I think there are three things at play here. Overall, I think you’re right that she’s not very smart.

    First, I think she is one of those people who spent a long time learning to sound smart. She’s interested in power, so she learned how to sound like she knows what she’s talking about, but she learned it in a bubble, so she can only convince the people who are in her same bubble. She never really learned how to think, just how to manipulate the people in her circle. I saw this a lot in business, people who had gotten by on a certain sliver of smarts for so long that they themselves had no idea how stupid they had become.

    Second, yes, she thinks the public is much stupider than in fact we are.

    Third, and related to the second point — this has been coming to mind a lot lately — I think the political consultants these people rely on are WAY behind the times. They still seem to think that money is enough to win an election (they should have learned that lesson when Brat beat Cantor!) and they still seem to think in terms of old-fashioned campaigns and messaging, as if they could still control the rollout of a narrative. Communications is much more complicated these days, and becoming more and more so; I think most of the communications experts are still trying to figure out what the heck to do about all the changes, and/or burying their heads in the sand and doing what used to work.

    I will not be surprised if Warren loses her Senate seat to Geoff Diehl. She is way ahead in the polls but I’m not sure the pollsters know what they’re doing any more, either.

59. It’s not that Warren isn’t smart. She is both smart and ambitious. she is smart enough to realize that the press, taken as a whole, are dumb as rocks and more than willing to believe anything as long as it supports the progressive agenda. However, she errs when she considers the public to be stupid. She’s only partially correct in that assumption.

    I hope the Dems do nominate this foolish woman to run against Trump. The comedic value alone would be priceless.

60. the delicious irony in this caper is that Warren, by releasing the DNA results, actually proved Trump to be correct in his challenge. Yes, she is a fool but it is a dangerous mistake to consider a fool stupid. we are fortunate that Trump is no fool. He will eat her for lunch.

61. I recommend the linked article for an examination of the timing of Warren’s claiming to be white, then her claiming to be Indian, then her dropping her claims to be a minority Indian, and how they line up chronologically with her employment by lower ranked universities, then her being hired by Ivy’s Penn and Harvard.

    Apparently, Warren makes the ridiculous claim that she listed herself as of Indian descent for nine years in the Association of American Law Schools Directory–a law directory that academic recruiters consult–because she hoped to be invited to functions where she could meet with other native Americans, to quote her “people just like me,” but when she didn’t receive such invitations, she ceased to list herself as of American Indian descent.

    Unfortunately, this article quotes someone of actual Choctaw Indian heritage, who was a student at Harvard during Warren’s time there, who says that on three separate occasions he personally invited Dr. Warren to participate in events put on by Harvard’s Native American Law Student’s Association–just the sort of functions she claimed she was yearning to attend–and he says, she ignored each one of the three invitations he made to her.

    https://townhall.com/tipsheet/guybenson/2018/10/15/analysis-elizabeth-warrens-embarrassing-native-american-proof-n2528599

62. Snow on Pine on October 15, 2018 at 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm said:

    snow… read my post… we have them, your wrong..
    the nations conceded to do this for GOOD SCIENCE
    and have… and we were able to compare the oldest in europe with oldest in americas
    but we have also gotten a lot of samples from graves, and all manner of things

    you would be surprised..
    in fact… there is a big mucky layer of fake we are all gonna die science
    underneat that is some really cool stuff you dont get updates on
    leaves everyone kind of stuck int he past (serously stuck)

63. I don’t know how the MSM will try to spin this but, to me, it looks like her releasing these DNA results had backfired in a spectacular way. As practically everyone has said at some time or other, in general “numbers don’t lie.”

    A lot of people these days are interested in and pursue genealogical research, and a lot of them are familiar with DNA testing and what the results mean. They, I am sure, are quite well aware of just how flimsy and tenuous Warren’s claims to any American Indian “blood” are.

64. Artfldgr–I have no idea what you are trying to say.

65. AesopFan on October 16, 2018 at 1:33 am at 1:33 am said:

    thats not how it works… very much not how it works
    also, the genetics that are used to do these lineages are mitochondrial not nuclear

    mitochondria are passed by the mom
    men pass them too, but in almost all cases they get destroyed
    we dont know how yet…

    the public has a VERY poor grasp of MODERN genetics
    which is very different than the kind of thing we get taught

    in this way, Ewarren actually has LESS indian in her than most europeans because guess where indians came from? from asia… they are basically asians who were taken over and believe they are spanish… heh

    but if you look… you will find the baltics are R1a haplogroup
    but that SAME haplogroup is also Turkish
    now… how did THAT happen?
    kind of fits the legends that latvians were guards for the caliphate
    but that probably would not be old enough for this as these things get mixed by ice ages prior to our modern mixing…

    A haplotype is a group of genes in an organism that are inherited together from a single parent, and a haplogroup (haploid from the Greek: ??????, haploûs, “onefold, simple” and English: group) is a group of similar haplotypes that share a common ancestor with a single-nucleotide polymorphism mutation

    my personal waork was in SNPs
    but none of my work is published as i dont have creds
    but i do have a chip that can go thorugh the data orders of magnitude faster
    the geneticist and myself found us stymied by Schadt and chinese

    anyway…
    anyone want the chip they can have it.
    can go through peta byts of data like genetic data using off the shelf parts.
    sad eh?

    but we lost a lot of that…

    anyway.
    i did a data analysis for the doc
    he loved it… it explained from a data point how codons expanded
    if you lived through the era of data expansion of expensive to cheap memory you would recognize the finger prints

    also. he checked it and it aligned perfectly with the work that was done using archea… but alas… cant publis a nobody… not like ramnujan would have a chance today

    in fact… taking temple grandins point
    i hacked the genome math model and reworked it
    the geneticist loved it
    but had no stomach to fight to show it
    why?
    retiring and no reason to

    i am a rental brain with no degrees that makes over 6 figs a year
    but thats not enough to prove i know more than those that know less wiht degrees

66. Neo: times change. Sears used to be THE place to go for appliances, home goods, car stuff, tools, and lots more. It declared bankruptcy yesterday.

    Can you imagine your law profs approving the Chrisie Ford/ Kavanaugh circus with the theme of guilty until proven innocent, the accusation is enough? Can you imagine them whipping up law students even though every single accusation had no content?

    I think Dershowittz is stupid too, outside the law.

67. 1. There is no such tribe, nor has there ever been. “‘Tuckahoe’ refers to the low-country, slave-owning plantation owners [of Virginia], with all of their economic, political, social, and English (mostly from Northern and Western England) ethnic traits.”

    And all these years I thought it was the Westchester suburb where Maude and Walter Findlay lived.

68. > Here we go again. The Left will say Trump is wrong when he is 99.9% proven to be right and say democrats are right when it is proven they are 99.9% to be wrong

    I find this amusing since the low end of the DNA results (i.e., 10th generation) show that Elizabeth Warren is literally 99.9% not American Indian.

    I’ve been saying for years that my whiter-than-white kids have more Indian blood in them than Warren, and now it’s shown to be true. I guess I’ve just never learned to game the system.

69. “…99.9%…”

    Well, um, being “right” is a most certainly a sign of the oppressive, white, male patriarchy. The concept of “rightness” is, after all, rancid (like all Western concepts).

    And irrelevant (especially on university campuses).

    Seriously, I don’t think one can even use that argument anymore.

    What does being “right” mean anyway?…since being a “native American” is so obviously an emotional thing….

    (Remember that Kavanaugh may not have done the deed he was accused of doing. But he was CAPABLE of doing it, and so therefore there is nothing to discuss in his defense….)

    As for Warren, there’s no reason why she can’t be a “native American” .1% of the time—or as often as she wants.

    (Maybe what we need to resolve this is a commission….)

70. Paul in Boston:

    Oh, I know that times had changed, although some law profs were leftists even back when I was in law school. However, what I meant was that there’s nothing intrinsically stupid about law professors. Their current stupidity (and knavishness) is the result of current politics and the Gramscian march, not anything to do with the profession itself.

71. I’m going to get a DNA test and depending on how much African DNA and how much Neanderthal DNA I have I’m going to apply for special privileges as both an oppressed minority and as a critically endangered, formerly-thought-extinct species.

    Seriously, it’s an interesting subject. Apparently sub-saharan Africans also interbred with archaic (i.e. extinct) forms of the genus homo. Just not Neanderthals or any other archaic form “science” has yet identified and been able to map the genome. As you can imagine, if in certain parts of the world you can excavate whole Woolly Mammoth carcasses that are so well preserved they still have hair on them fossils tend to be well preserved as well. That doesn’t happen in Africa where fossils tend to decay rapidly. At least to the point where you can’t extract any usable DNA. So while geneticists have been able to identify archaic human alleles in some African populations they don’t have anything to compare the results to and therefore have no idea what species/subspecies were interbreeding with modern humans in Africa.

72. We may think that this information shows that Warren has been substantially dishonest. But I don’t think that’s the message that most of the world is getting. “Triumphant vindication” is the media theme, as far as I can tell.

    https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/elizabeth-warrens-native-american-ancestry-spin-media-fell-for-it/

73. Mac on October 16, 2018, we don’t need to worry about most of the world. Just about making her a laughing stock here by 2020.

74. My sister took an Ancestry.com dna test (and since she and I are of the same generation with the same parent, it should give me nearly identical results), and the results it gave were:

    79% Great Britain
    11% Western Europe
    10% Scandinavia

    Going by my family tree I am:

    1/64 Irish
    1/64 French
    1/16 Welsh
    1/16 Swedish
    1/8 Norwegian
    1/4 Dutch
    15/32 English

    Translating to percentages yields:

    1.5625% Irish
    1.5625% French
    6.25% Welsh
    6.25% Swedish
    12.5% Norwegian
    25% Dutch
    46.875% English

    Breaking it out to what the ancestry.com DNA test would say, this then is:

    ~54% Great Britain
    ~26% Western Europe
    ~19% Scandinavia

    Not quite what the actual family tree shows.

75. “I’m going to get a DNA test and depending on how much African DNA and how much Neanderthal DNA I have I’m going to apply for special privileges as both an oppressed minority and as a critically endangered, formerly-thought-extinct species.” [Steve57 @ 3:23 pm]

    This is not as outlandish as one might think. Since gender and identity are social constructs now all of us on the right should identify a la Rachel Dolezal as black lesbians or gay Guatamalans (the list is endless) and file an overwhelming number of applications to entitlement organizations. Sure many of those apps would be denied, then we would have to have the fortitude to find an attorney (ACLU?) and a sympathetic leftist judge and sue the bastards,

    Turnabout is fair play; Cloward-Piven the bejeezus out of the leftist institutions.

76. There’s Haplo Group X, which traces a portion of red indians on North America all the way back to Judea/Hebrew.

    Americans cannot even come to be ready to believe that, yet they are willing to buy into the State sugar momma of a Warren’s lies. That’s ironic.

77. According to a story out today, it tuns our that Warren’t ex was a co-founder of DNA testing/genealogy research company Family Tree DNA, and one of the chief scientists who worked with him was the same Dr. Bustamonte who did Warren’s DNA test.

    To me this would have been critical information that should have been included in the stories about Warren’s DNA test; these connections sure open up the field for all sorts of manipulation of her test and it’s results.

    See https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/congress/elizabeth-warrens-ex-husband-founded-dna-testing-company

78. Warren’s claim Native American ancestry has the same significance as my claim to the Crown of the Holy Roman Empire.

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