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The Republican debates

The New Neo Posted on by

The undercard debate has started. I’ll be watching it off and on.

6:30: So far, the moderators are making it all about Trump.

6:38: They’re giving each candidate almost no time at all to answer.

7:48: Having seen most of it, I have to say they brought quite a bit of energy. Perhaps it’s the energy of desperation, but it was energy nevertheless. My summary:

Pataki’s going nowhere. Jindal may have helped himself by staking a position designed to take some of Trump’s support as the anti-GOP-establishment candidate. Lindsay Graham is a one-note candidate: stop ISIS and stop Iran (I suppose that’s two notes, but they harmonize). Santorum was Santorum.

8:20: They’re doing their introductions.

8:24 So far, once again it’s all about Trump. To me it seems that Trump is making an ass of himself, but to his supporters it probably seems like he’s hard-hitting and tough. Perhaps both are true.

Trump insults Rand Paul in a juvenile way, and Paul calls him out on it. Fiorina rises above the fray and talks about trusting the judgement of the American people. Trump also insults Pataki, who isn’t even there.

8:27: Now Trump’s attacking Walker, who is fighting back. Interesting. Again, to me Trump seems both juvenile, narcissistic, and largely destructive. If he really were a Democratic mole, what would he be doing differently?

8:32 I think that Jeb Bush actually landed a punch on Trump, alleging that Trump tried to give him money to get casino gambling in Florida, which he refused to do. I have no idea if this is true, but Trump seemed a bit discomfited.

8:52: Talking about Iran, Huckabee gives an impassioned speech. Talking about Obama’s red line and Syria, both Rubio and Cruz are very forceful in defending their votes “nay” to what Rubio calls Obama’s “pinprick” bombing proposal. This part of the debate seems to have a lot of substance—and again, Trump shows himself to be a lightweight.

9:03: Fiorina gives an impassioned speech about Planned Parenthood. Her intensity is remarkable; really quite fierce. She has somewhat of a Thatcheresque quality here.

9:50: Fiorina about Hillary, “Flying is an activity, not an accomplishment.”

9:54: It really has been clear that CNN wants them to attack each other, and the questions are framed to encourage it. It certainly does make for a debate that’s not a snooze.

9:57: Rubio shows passion. That’s what he didn’t do in the first debate, and I think it’s a good idea for him.

It also occurs to me, not for the first time, that the sheer number of candidates makes it hard for any of them to really stand out. Trump stands out because he’s unique (in my opinion, uniquely awful, and worse than ever in this debate).

10:01: Once again, Trump goes after Rand Paul in a petty, juvenile, cheap shot. Now he goes against Jeb, attacking his brother. Another cheap shot, to which Jeb actually has a decent response: “he kept us safe.”

10:03: It’s really difficult to see the pattern of how the moderators are policing the traffic and give-and-take among and between the candidates. I do notice (and I think it’s an objective observation) that they seem to be stomping on Carly’s time more than on some of the others.

I think the following candidates may have improved their numbers tonight: Rubio, Christie, and Fiorina. I think Trump hurt himself somewhat, although I say that with the caveat that many of his supporters seem to want to excuse anything and everything he might do, so perhaps nothing can hurt his numbers.

Comments

The Republican debates — 66 Comments

  1. Neo, I had to leave the room because my wife could not tolerate my outrage.

    So far, Trump has been given two speaking opportunities for every one by each other candidate.

    Tapper, or whoever that alleged Moderator is, is so blatantly trying to start p’ing contests among the candidates, that someone should jerk his mike away from him; and send him to bed without supper.

    The Candidates are uniformly, with one exception, trying to rise above the sand box struggle and talk about issues, and their agenda. Good luck.

    I knew it would be bad, but this exceeds my worst expectations.

  2. Trump, the pompadour airhead. Absolutely can’t stand this narcissistic know-nothing ass. Yes, Neo, what would he be doing differently as a Democrat mole.

  5. I agree. I think that several people have performed credibly; but, I think that Carly simply stands above the crowd.

    She always seems to respond with just the right tone.

    I have compared her to Thatcher on other occasions. There will never be another Margaret Thatcher, but, with Carly Fiorina I see the same cool demeanor, and the same razor sharp repartee.

  8. “If he really were a Democratic mole, what would he be doing differently?”

    There’s a line about Trump that he acts like poor people think rich people would act. I think he also acts like Democrats think Republicans would act.

  9. I don’t understand why Tapper’s asking so many questions. I could probably count on one hand the number of times that Hugh Hewitt and Dana Bash have asked questions so far. And Tapper’s clearly just interested in getting people to get in fights with Trump.

  10. Fiorina’s tenure at HP is her Achilles’ heel. She did her best on it tonight. I won’t and can’t believe that Trump did himself any good.

  11. Carson, Fiorina shined.
    Cruz didn’t shine as much as I hoped.

    Trump is Trump. Hard to tell what rabbit he’ll pull out in the next few days ….

  13. Trump’s ‘connection’ is with the LIV // touchy–feely crowd.

    And that’s a very big crowd indeed. IT’s the same crowd that put comrade Zero in the Oval Office.

    I’ve been a Fiorina booster from the first, and can’t say that I’m the least bit surprised at her rise in the pols.

    The key take away:

    Fiorina and Carson are destroying Jeb Bush in the early caucus states…. and in the debate dynamics.

    Bush is the single biggest threat to a GOP victory in 2016.

    On current trends, Sanders may sweep the nomination. Biden is biding too much time, I think. He well knows that the Clinton machine has PLENTY of dirt on him. And, can his wife take the wear and tear of a limp campaign ?

    I don’t see either Fiorina or Carson at the head of a successful ticket. They would actually perform well as president — they just can’t get voted in.

    The guy who’s best figures to be Cruz or Walker. Either could head the ticket — and win.

    Walker would absolutely shame HRC or Biden or Sanders… two drunks and kook.

    Cruz would kill all three in any debate format you could dream up. He also LOOKS presidential. That’s a big factor for the LIV.

    The second tier needs to take a hint from Rick Perry and fold their tents. I would not want to see Jindal suffering any long term image damage. He should think of the out years.

  15. I actually didn’t have a problem with the debate. I thought Tapper did a good job, and actually give kudos to CNN for brining Hewitt in. As far as these debates go, they did about as good a job as could be hoped for.

    As far as the participants, I thought Cruz probably seemed the most presidential overall – so I agree with blert – while Rubio definitely emerged as a force (whether or not that’s a good thing). Fiorina was good (I am a Fiorina supporter), but again I worry about the points blert brought up.

    I’d rank the “winners:” Cruz, Rubio, Fiorina. Carson was ok, I just think he stumbles a bit too much and his answers have a kind of vagueness to them that bothers me. Christie actually did ok for the most part; he just didn’t inspire me in any way. And, much to my chagrin, Bush did pretty well too.

    Standing back from my partisan engagement, how intellectually rich is the conservative movement? Wow. These debates are principled, substantive, passionate, brimming with ideas and arguments. I was engaged the whole time.

  16. PS – I should add that maybe it only seemed that way to me – intellectually stimulating – because I’ve been out of the country for so long and have been paying far less attention to politics than I usually do. Perhaps my perspective is skewed by that.

    Still, I enjoyed it.

  17. kolnai:

    Actually, I agree that they were intellectually stimulating. There was a lot of substance there.

    But I think it was despite the moderators, not because of them.

  18. neo –

    Perhaps you’re right about that. I may be a bit too disengaged, and things that normally would bother me aren’t bothering me anymore.

    At least it seems I wasn’t totally off on my sense that there is some vibrancy here.

  19. Tapper was bad, and had the vast majority of the questions. Hewitt’s few questions were mostly good, I thought. I can’t really remember Bash’s questions, I’m sorry to say.

    Also, post-debate interview on the floor of the room had Trump sounding humble. Weird!

    :p

  20. What in the world is up with Ann Coulter — she’s apparaently upset that so many on that stage tonight talked about their support of Israel, so tweeted this:

    How many f—ing Jews do these people think there are in the United States?

    That and her tweet last week about not caring if Trump performed abortions in the White House should earn her widespread opprobrium among conservatives. I’m worried it won’t.

  22. It should be clear from the strengths on this debate stage that the GOP has a great deal going for it.

    The Dems, on the other hand, have some old, tired, disgusting and criminal horses that should go to the glue factory or otherwise be put to death politically.

    Trump’s great strength, as I’ve said before, is his identification and elaboration of the problems in a way that the LIVs and the fabled Independents (also LIVs) relate to. He’ll mobilize for the GOP like no other in living memory.

    Identifying the solutions a la Paul Ryan is way premature and desired only by people who comment here!

  24. Re Coulter: The MSM hold her up as representing conservative views. If for no other reason, that’s why she needs to be rebuked by us.

  26. I have seen Carly twice in person. I have the pictures!
    She is even better in person. Very nice and approachable.

    I also think she is a political and leadership genius. I further suspect she writes most of her own stuff.

  27. Ann, you need to read Coulter’s book, “Adios America,” to get where she is coming from. Immigration is Numero Uno in her mind. She makes an even more urgent case for reforming immigration than Dr. Victor Davis Hanson did in “Mexifornia.” She is absolutely obsessive about securing the border, getting illegals out of the country, ending anchor babies, and stopping legal immigration until the culture can recover from the onslaught we have experienced in the last 25 years. That is Trump’s Numero Uno also. Or at least that’s what he says. So, she loves Trump. She does not trust anyone else in the GOP on the issue.

    As to the debate. I didn’t like the personal attacks encouraged by Tapper. It accomplishes very little, IMO. The format was not fair to all. Trump got more time than anyone else. Fiorina got a lot of time, too. Which she used well. Walker, Cruz, Paul, Carson, and Huckabee got the least time. I thought Fiorina and Rubio got – A. Christie, Walker, and Bush – B. All the rest except Trump got – C. Trump is in a class all by himself – an E for entertainer of the evening. Let’s face it, the debate would have been much less lively without him.

    There’s still a long way to the first primaries. That’s an eternity in politics. Anything can happen. I agree with whoever said that the GOP has a lot of talent compared to the dems.

  28. Im a fan of Ann Coulter’s as well and have just recently had her latest book delivered. I agree with her on the issue and like to see more candidates like Carly talking about the issue but to back Trump as Coulter does, seems to be a kin to cutting her nose despite her face. Everyone outside Trumpdom (aka the Vulgars) see’s Trump as a clown, therefore any stand he purports to have on the issue. I want the border secured and the illegals sent home as well. I cannot, however, support Trump.

    BTW: I must have been absent this day, but could somebody explain to me what an LIV is?

  29. Trump was Trump. I don’t think he hurt or helped himself

    Fiorina helped her cause.

    Kasich bored. We muted him.

    Bush showed more energy but still sounded platitudinous.

    Cruz was impressive but didn’t connect.

    Carson seemed too nice to be on that stage. Brilliant man but I didn’t see the steel I saw in Fiorina.

    Paul only has minority appeal.

    Christie did well, as did Huckabee.

    Rubio was eloquent. The way he tried to play down his participation in the Gang of Eight by saying how hard it was to address immigration in one bill was sly.

    Walker failed to break through.

  30. J.J. –

    Aside from Trump, a lot of the air time that the candidates got was determined by the candidates themselves. Anyone who broke into a conversation forcefully was allowed to talk. Most did it to pile on Trump. Fiorina used it to make some of her usual good comments. And Cruz mostly didn’t. I don’t think that was a good idea for him.

  33. IMHO,
    Rubio and Fiorina topped …By a big margin…

    Cruz was good…a little weird looking into the camera so much…must’ve got some bad advice……but a very sharp guy.

    Christy’s ploy to admonish the others for talking about their records was transparent to me….like the teachers pet or a snitch trying to score easy points…it made me throw up in my mouth a little…..it lessened an otherwise much needed better showing from him.

    Walker was better but didn’t stand out, Carson seemed too passive and introspective….But I really like the guy.

    Paul, and Huckaby flatlined.

    Bush was much improved.

    Trump seemed like he was treading water….more of the same…big promises no details…..he better find some substance ….FAST.

  34. Oh, and I thought Carly’s face actually looked very good for 61…in HD on a 60″ tv…..

  35. OK, I had an engagement tonight I could not back out of, so did not see it live but have seen snippets. Looks like Fiorina came out ahead, and her answers were very impressive. She keeps cool under enormous pressure and she’s obviously very smart and has the right values. I saw Trump looking basically, IMHO, ridiculous — but yes, entertaining. He is not presidential and I don’t trust him at all. I hope that came through, I will watch more and see. Jeb Bush just seems weak. I keep hoping that Ted Cruz wil shine as I know he can, but he is not getting airtime and so much of it is about Trump. I will have to watch this whole thing! I hope it changes the numbers. I think Walker and Rubio both got some good points in, but again, need to see more.

    I agree Neo that Trump could be a mole for Democrats with all the good he’s doing. Just when the GOP has a slue of decent and even outstanding people running… oh well, time will tell.

  36. Trump seemed like he was treading water….more of the same…big promises no details…..he better find some substance ….FAST.
    ———————

    I’m not sure, but Trump seemed to have a shift in gears mid-way through the debate. I’m wondering if it suddenly occurred to him that his bluster alone isn’t going to be enough to carry him to the White House.

    He seemed unusually humble in the floor interview after the debate.

  37. If he really were a Democratic mole, what would he be doing differently?

    Good question, one that was never answered about McCain’s bizarre behavior or Romney’s continual support for Obama-lite policies. Probably won’t be answered now, either.

  38. Fiorina WON! – but now downsides come into focus.

    Too cool, too cold – too unapproachable. Brilliant, but too Obama-like. (Yikes!)

  39. I have to say, I like the rising tenor, showing off newer, different candidates – like Carly, Jindal, Rubio (even Christy).

    But is Ted Cruz ever gonna shine? Some are saying he only knows an angry ‘key?’

  41. Carly faced analysts from the Street every quarter at HP and Lucent. She had great training. Donald was on a TV show.

  43. I see the opinion section in this morning’s on-line WaPo has four of six articles declaring Carly as the winner.

    Carly has been my first pick for a long time. I think she could have done even better; maybe tone down the “angry woman” a little bit in a couple of places. Or smile. Vince Lombardi famously told his running backs “If you get in the end zone, act like you’ve been there before.”

    But she was “new” to the WaPo and probably to a large segment of the country, and they were impressed. She certainly showed she was running for the top spot, not veep. And that she is not someone to tangle with.

  44. Good debate. CNN did much better than I expected.

    I found Trump’s attacks at on the others embarrassing. So far he has helped focus the debate on substantive issues which the PC police had put off limits, but I hope someone else wins the nomination. I really like Ted Cruze but he did try just a bit too hard to show that he is anti-establishment. Scott Walker is a brave good man, but so far he doesn’t seem to have the necessary charisma.

    I thought Rand Paul helped himself this time. Carly Fiorina made the most of her first appearance on the big boy stage especially when she reminded Trump that “women heard his comment” about her face. Ben Carson was excellent especially his comment that Trump was “an OK doctor.” Rubio sounded better but he has a lot of explaining to do about his participation in the gang of eight.

    So far, I’m undecided. Trump’s abrasive style doesn’t seem to wear well with me, so I’d say he is the loser. The rest were all winners.

  45. Bah.

    What little I saw showed the candidates arguing against Trump, while Trump was on split-screen.

    I’m glad I watched Breathless starring JP Belmondo on TCM instead.

  46. I never watch debates, but my husband always does. I watched part of this one, leading up to when I needed to leave for a class I’m taking. I liked Fiorina, Rubio and Cruz, in terms of the debate, in that order. Christie appealing to the 55 year old trucker who needs our help, represented what is wrong with the mainstream Republican camp. We don’t need your help, except to get out of our lives as much as possible. Less regulation, laws, programs our money is being confiscated to support, etc etc. Will that truth that limited government (especially federal, whose main purpose was to protect our borders) ever resonate? And as far as CNN, the moderators seemed to jump in every time a candidate was pressing in against the Democrats and their destructive policies. Not too subtlety for those of us that are familiar with the protections afforded the other camp by their mouthpiece, the MSM.

  47. Marco Rocked..!! So did Carly..!! Jeb was solid and smart. Kasich was solid…yet, somehow, tiresome. Chris and Huck were quite good. Scott was solid and smart. And, the Malignant Narcissist/Egomaniac/High Chair Pounding-Infantile Defiance Poster Boy..? Tell after Tell after Tell after TELL shown to a vast audience. A 3-year old spoiled boy by temperament and utterly unfit to lead in a hugely dangerous and serious time. Buu-Byeeeee, Donny. (**I sincerely HOPE.**)

    I’ll be interested to know what Hugh Hewitt’s next day read on being minimalized to an inkspot by CNN Dweebs might be. He’s very, Very bright and experienced and Rock Ribbed Conservative and was made almost AWOL by Tapper and CNN Babe.

  48. Carly Fiorina was the clear winner. Rubio did great also. Trump was Trump and by the Drudge poll we can see that Trump supporters are pretty solid no matter what.

    One thing that stood out to me was Jake Tapper. As long as the candidates (republican candidates) was beating up on each other he let them ramble on and invited others to join in on the beat down but if they went after Hillary … WOWWWWWWWWW time to move on!

  50. Neoconscum pretty will captures my reaction.

    Just a few aimless thoughts (I left the debate to follow my grand daughter’s college soccer game. She scored the first goal of her Freshman year; so the night was not a total waste.)

    I really do not see how anyone can give CNN anything but a big fat fail. They were so transparently trying to start little P’ing contests–mostly with Trump–that they stepped all over the substantive issues. As a result of their performance, Trump got a tremendous segment of the air time.
    Loved Carly. I agree that she does need to loosen up a bit. I hear she is very good in person, and hope that comes through as she moves on. I think she thought she had to look serious, and she did.
    I thought Jeb did ok. I actually thought Huckabee did well–to no avail. Rubio just does not connect with me. I really believe Kasich would be a good President, but doubt if he can win.

    I think Dr Carson peaked after the first debate. I do wish Jindal would get out; he is too good of a man to embarrass himself.

    Of course these debates are too phony to make judgements. We will know more about how they are doing on the ground when actual voting starts.

    Shocked to see Drudge poll showing Trump as big winner. Scares me that a significant percentage of the population would buy into that (Well, it is actually less than 1/10 of 1 percent; but, still.)

  51. Neo,

    You’ve been conned, CNN played you. Read Mark Levin or Sundance and you will see what is really going on

  52. Sharon W …

    Yes Trump or maybe Christie should have jumped in and said LOOK.

    One of us will be the nominee and we won’t be running against each other! We will be running against the very person that you obviously don’t want us to mention!

    Fact is the nominee not only has to take the fight to the Dems but also the bias media!

  53. Stuart:

    Links would be helpful.

    Also, in what way was I “conned” by CNN? I am fully aware that CNN shapes the debate by the questions it asks and its moderators, the amount of time it gives each candidate, who it focuses on and how it does it. That’s actually a given. I still am able to evaluate how the candidates answered and behaved in response to CNN’s tactics.

  54. The main debate was WAY too long. WAY too long. I hope candidates had bathroom breaks during commercials. This after all isn’t a bladder control contest.

    The first debate was closer to what I’d like. Just 4 people, so lots of discussion.

    Cruz, Walker did well, nothing special.

    Fiorina did what she had to, which is show herself to a wider audience as really bright, tough, knowledgeable.

    And there are WAY too many candidates. Some candidates need to do the country and party a service and suspend their camapaigns.

  55. Oldflyer:

    The Drudge poll can be completely gamed by a determined group, be it Democrats or Republicans. Anyone can vote. Anyone can vote over and over and over as much as that person wants. The Ron Paul people dominated it last cycle. So anyone who wants Trump to have won it can engineer it so that he does.

    That said, for all I know it reflects the fact that his supporters think he did wonderfully. They are extremists and have a cult of personality. What you might say of Obama could be said of him: he could dismember a puppy on the stage and they’d say he showed how tough he is.

  57. #1 was Carly. By a MILE. So glad she was in the main debate. Totally deserved to be there. By next week, her numbers will be up by a LOT. Keep reading commenters online claiming she’s a RINO. Maybe because of her association with McCain and Romney? But I’ve been on her site, watching her video clips about a bunch of topics…I don’t see the RINO.

    Trump – looked the fool on the vaccines and autism. had no substance in any of his arguments. he could possibly lose some support here.

    Cruz – should not have looked into the camera. instantly made him seem rehearsed and boring. too bad. he missed his chance.

    Rubio – I’m not a Rubio fan, but he really did well. He did the best on foreign policy, IMHO. He has a great delivery style.

    Christie & Walker helped themselves in this debate, but I think it’s too late for both of them.

    Carson was okay. I still think he is a great man, would do a good job as president, but his answers about 9/11 were awful. 🙁

    The rest…who cares? Several should drop out right now and let the consolidation begin.

  59. Moderators that traitors that should be X.

    They aren’t people that normals should listen to and obey. Not if you want to save what’s left of this Republic.

  60. Stuart:

    I looked rather quickly at the Levin article, and I have no idea why you say I’ve been conned.

    In fact, on all except point 4, Levin is saying what I’ve been saying. Number 4 is our only point of disagreement. I do not think Fiorina is in the least an “establishment” choice; in fact, they tried to ban her from the debate, and she is pretty tough on the establishment. Jeb and Kasich would be the natural “establishment” choices.

    I don’t agree with some of what Levin says, and we particularly disagree about Trump (this year; back in 2011 Levin agreed with me; see this), but we happen to be in basic agreement about the role of CNN except for the one point.

    By the way, I’ve been championing Fiorina for a long, long time, way before this debate, back when her support was at about 1%.

  61. Personally I like Cruz but he won’t win. If you read Sundance you will find most candidates have been bought with the exception of Trump. Is he a conservative no but with the exception of Cruz no one else is either. Trump is shaking it up and the establishment hates that. So they will do everything in their power to destroy Trump.

  64. For those who object to Trump, a quote from the 1970 movie “The Forbin Project” may be appropriate:

    “Colossus:
    In time you will come to regard me not only with respect and awe, but with love.” 🙂

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