The pro-Trump forces are at it again with a truncated and misleading DeSantis quote
I’ve dealt with the phenomenon in this previous post:
But what I detest – no matter what side does it – is the use of propagandist truncated quotes. I’m quite aware that waging war against that practice is a losing game. The propagandist truncated quote is a very clever tool, used constantly by each side. It’s a way of telling the truth – “So and so said this awful thing!” – while taking the quote out of context in order to lead to a misperception (or at the very least an incomplete, misleading perception) on the part of the listener or reader. I hate it when it’s used against anyone. That very much includes when it’s used against Trump – which happens constantly and to great effect, both from the left and from NeverTrumpers who used to be on the right.
How boring and time-consuming to look up the longer and more complicated story. The press knows this; politicians’ enemies and/or opponents know it, too. Nice guys finish last and all that. Much better to go with the attention-getting, incendiary quote, the one the leads people to the conclusion you want. It works for both Trump’s enemies and for DeSantis’ enemies, on both left and right, and both sides are adept at spinning someone’s words. For Trump-boosters on the right, the theme is DeSantis as betrayer stabbing Trump in the back, as well as DeSantis the wimp, DeSantis the GOPe candidate – despite DeSantis’ record in Florida and in Congress as a founding member of the Freedom Caucus, the most conservative group in the House.
And so we have another case of the use of the technique against DeSantis by pro-Trump forces. You may have encountered it – the “listless vessels” statement. The assertion by the pro-Trump forces is that RINO DeSantis attacked Trump voters by calling them “listless vessels,” sort of a Hillaryesque “deplorables”-lite. Here’s an example. The headline is, “DeSantis Draws Outrage From Trump Campaign Over ‘Listless Vessels’ Comment.” My my, the Trump campaign has gotten awfully sensitive all of a sudden. Here’s a quote from the article:
Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis drew broad outrage over the weekend following his comments suggesting some Trump supporters are “listless vessels” in an Aug. 19 interview with a conservative Florida publication.
While the 2024 campaign for the Republican presidential candidate has since claimed the comment referred to “some congressional endorsers,” the comment has been widely interpreted by the Trump campaign and supporters as referring to all his supporters, drawing comparisons to former Democrat presidential candidate Hillary Clinton calling Trump supporters a “basket of deplorables” in 2016.
“DeSantis goes full-blown Hillary and [calls] MAGA supporters ‘Listless Vessels,’” Trump campaign spokesperson Steven Cheung posted on X, formerly known as Twitter, referring to Mr. DeSantis’s remarks made in an interview with The Florida Standard.
“Widely interpreted” – in other words, twisted and used and lied about. The Trump forces have done it, and of course the left is also doing it. The two groups are in lockstep with each other in their approach to DeSantis, because both of them would like Trump to be nominated – for different reasons, of course.
If you’re interested in what DeSantis actually said, here it is:
Former Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli called out CNN host Kasie Hunt on Sunday for airing a deceptively edited video clip of Florida Gov. Ron DeSantis.
On “State of the Union,” Hunt claimed that DeSantis described Trump supporters as “listless vessels” in a recent interview, suggesting that DeSantis had disparaged them by implying they do not think for themselves. Hunt then played a clip of those remarks.
In response, Cuccinelli called out CNN for having spliced together two parts of the interview to make DeSantis sound like he was attacking Trump supporters.
“Everybody just saw there that there was a cut. You cut from the beginning of that quote to the ‘listless vessels,'” Cuccinelli protested. “You just did what the problem is. So, everybody who just watched that, understand, go read the transcript, and it is not correct.” …
DeSantis, however, was clearly saying that the Republican Party should be united behind principles — not a single leader.
Here is what DeSantis said in full:
“So there will be people who are huge Trump supporters, like in Congress, who have incredibly liberal left-wing records that is really just atrocious, and yet they’re viewed by some of these folks as, like, really, really good. Then you have other people, you know, like a Congressman Chip Roy, who has endorsed me, Congressman Thomas Massie. These guys have records of principle fighting the swamp that are second to none. And yet they will be attacked by some of these people and called RINOs. So it’s just been totally detached from any type of substance. And ultimately, a movement can’t be about the personality of one individual. The movement has got to be about what are you trying to achieve on behalf of the American people. And that’s got to be based in principle. Because if you’re not rooted in principle, if all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning, that’s not going to be a durable movement.”
I think it’s very interesting that what DeSantis was addressing there was the very type of thing that then occurred: the left and the Trump campaign uniting to attack DeSantis or his supporters in a deceptive manner.
Such approaches often work, though, as I wrote earlier. And I believe they are a form of suicide for the right, because I believe that at this point Trump will be the nominee and cannot win the general. I also have come to think that Trump and his most fervent supporters – not all of his supporters by any means, but a significant number – feel that if Trump isn’t the nominee they don’t want the Republican nominee to win. It’s Trump’s way or the highway. And I wonder what sort of principle that represents.
Trump is an absolutely despicable human being (and I cannot stand Joe Biden). I am not surprised at all whenever he does things like that. If he were to win the general election (he won’t), I cannot imagine the type of person who would want to be in his administration.
Thank you again, Neo, for your hard work clarifying these truncated transcripts– very much appreciated.
On the Republican/conservative side, Never-Trumpers and Only-Trumpers are just plain counterproductive.
Maybe you should get out more, Mister Brooklyn Boy (yes, I’m one too), as your metric for “absolutely despicable human being” seems mighty low.
I forget the polling organization*, and it has probably already been discussed here; but there was a recent, legitimate poll showing 60+% of registered voters want neither Trump nor Biden.
I know, polls, schmolls, but this rings true to me. There are definitely people excited about Trump, but I doubt that exceeds 20% of registered voters. And, I have to believe voters genuinely excited about 4 more years of Biden are even fewer**.
But, the media, GOP and DNC will continue turning this into a battle between Trump and Biden, agitating both sides and ignoring anything that gets in the way of the pre-determined narrative. So, once again, we’ll end up with a binary choice between two people the vast majority of Americans do not prefer, so most people will vote AGAINST a candidate in an attempt to keep him from winning.
*Quinnipiac University: https://nypost.com/2023/08/17/majority-of-americans-say-they-definitely-wont-vote-for-trump-in-2024-poll/
**In 2020 Biden got 80 million votes. Trump 74 million. There are about 260 million Americans aged 18, or older.
I’m glad that more people like Neo are pushing back hard on this sort of nonsense by Trump and his most fervent supporters. Not that I have much faith that the truth will reach enough persuadable ears to turn the overwhelming tide that there seems to be towards Trump as the nominee. Until now these sorts of dirty tactics were usually deployed almost exclusively by the Left. And sadly, they are often very effective. And ironically, in recent years they’ve been used perhaps most often against Trump himself (“fine people” anyone?).
While it’s been overblown, it is true that DeSantis did loosely compare Only Trump voters to “listless vessels”. It was just the sort of reaction they had, that he was speaking about. That, and the tying of loyalty to one or a few personalities.
Note, I agree with him, and I’m tired of Trump. Unfortunately, I don’t see an alternative. He’s too far ahead.
In response, Cuccinelli called out CNN for having spliced together two parts of the interview to make DeSantis sound like he was attacking Trump supporters.
Tried accessing the article that was taken from, and it is now blocked; for me anyway.
But if above line is accurate, then it was CNN who created the major distortion. It is definitely reprehensible if the Trump team is capitalizing on that distortion, but … I believe it is much much worse that a news organization like CNN would knowingly create such a thing.
It reminds me of NBC editing the 911 tape of the Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin shooting to incorrectly paint Zimmerman as a racist. Such “news” organizations should be figuratively eviserated.
Eeyore:
In my gloomier moments – of which I have many – I agree that Trump is too far ahead. But it also is still quite early. We haven’t even had a single debate. I wonder how Trump’s non-appearance in the debates will go down. I suppose it depends on what actually happens in the debates. If they are interesting, and one or two of the candidates especially impressive, it could change things.
TommyJay:
MSM outlets constantly use truncated quotes. It’s their bread and butter.
Over at Insty they are using the truncated quotes to support their hatred of DeSantis. Nothing will change their minds – Only Trump and no one else will do.
if Trump isn’t the nominee they don’t want the Republican nominee to win. It’s Trump’s way or the highway. And I wonder what sort of principle that represents.
It represents the principle that the establishment GOP has lost the trust of its base.
People shouldn’t selectively quote in order to mislead, definitely. But it’s not a mystery why so many people are invested in Trump. It’s because they have no faith in the Republican Party to effect meaningful change. Whatever Trump is, he is not the establishment, and they have not failed to notice that many Republicans sabotaged Trump and the things he tried to do every chance they got.
It’s not because they think Trump is their savior or want to be ruled by an orange-haired dictator. It’s because they are tired of establishment Republicans. The principle is pretty simple.
I’m sick of circular firing squads.
I’m trying to give desantis the benefit of the doubt, that he can’t focus on his accomplishments instead of bringing hot takes, well i’ll vote for vivek in my own quixotic way, in the primary,
already some trump supporters have noted the unseemly delay in responding to multiple lawfare exercises directed against the state’s most prominent resident,
But was DeSantis right in saying “So there will be people who are huge Trump supporters, like in Congress, who have incredibly liberal left-wing records that is really just atrocious”?
DeSantis was taken out of context, but there is some ambiguity in the context. The sentence quoted above ends, “and yet they’re viewed by some of these folks as, like, really, really good.” “These folks” aren’t the ones in Congress. And the “some of these people” mentioned further down: are they the Representatives he objects to or the “folks” outside of Congress?
DeSantis didn’t literally say what he’s accused of saying, but was it entirely wrong to wonder if there wasn’t a critique of MAGAites implied in his remarks? In an age that sees “dog whistles” everywhere, there may have been better ways for DeSantis to phrase things. If you listen to the whole interview, he does make some good points, but he may need to polish his delivery more.
The Florida Standard interview that started all this can be seen online, though you may need to subscribe to see the transcript.
‘Whatever Trump is, he is not the establishment’
He supported the establishment Ronna Romney he supported the establishment Kevin McCarthy he is out there with Lindsay f’ing Graham.
Why didn’t he support Harmeet Dhillon? She was the anti establishment that Trump supposedly is.
miguel cervantes:
Oh, please. If you watch the entirety of most DeSantis interviews, he talks about his accomplishments a great deal. Perhaps you don’t understand the way the MSM and his opponents (Trump forces in particular) work: they report on the few sentences that they can use to twist against him, not the rest.
Abraxas:
And would it be entirely wrong to criticize those Trump supporters who slavishly support him no matter what, and spread lies about his opponents? However, DeSantis is obviously talking about members of Congress, but he criticizes “the movement” when he says this: “Because if you’re not rooted in principle, if all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning, that’s not going to be a durable movement.”
But he is very clearly referring primarily and perhaps even exclusively to people in Congress who support Trump and yet are not especially conservative at all.
It’s interesting how hard people strain to try to interpret his remarks in the way the MSM and the Trump camp wants them to interpret them, despite what DeSantis actually said.
Incidentally, when it comes to truncating quotes and using them to mislead, this has been done WAY more TO Trump than BY Trump…
This isn’t something invented by Trump or his supporters. This is how national media politics works and has for a really long time.
I acknowledge it would be easier for everyone if Trump and his supporters would stop trying to use the same tactics that everyone else gets to use against them with impunity. And then we could on with nominating, voting for, and seeing defeated the next set of genteel designated losers our betters have all lined up for us.
Art Deco:
Indeed.
Frederick:
As I made clear – explicitly – in several of my posts on the subject, including the first quote I put into this post, the MSM does it all the time to Trump.
And the Trump forces do it to his opponents, especially DeSantis. In this case, the Trump forces adopt the message of the MSM and spread it.
@neo:As I made clear – explicitly…
I never said or implied you didn’t. I’m not sure it’s necessary for you to be quite so defensive, I’m not criticizing or attacking you in any way–my comment was not addressed specifically to you nor did it quote you. I was seconding something you had said, because it looked like a lot of people here missed it.
the Trump forces adopt the message of the MSM and spread it.
In fairness, so do all the others, whenever they think there is advantage in doing so.
Frederick:
I am well aware of why people want Trump or no one. It’s no mystery. The basic “don’t trust the GOP” movement actually preceded Trump; at the time I called it the “burn it down” crowd. I’ve been writing about it for most of the time I’ve been blogging, which is since 2004.
neo @ 4:01pm,
Don’t forget both parties’ crazy, primary system. caucasing Iowans, freezing New Hampshirites and South Carolinians get a lot of say in who leads the ticket. Trump has name recognition and reputation built in. Based on Cornhead’s reporting, Ramaswamy has Iowans figured out and DeSantis is floundering.
@neo:the time I called it the “burn it down” crowd
I think most people who don’t trust the GOP would reject “burn it down” as a fair representation of what they believe and why they believe it. I certainly don’t want to burn down the GOP. I want to fill it with people who will actually be conservative, and who will actually make as much use of the power they have for conservative ends as the Dems do for progressive ends.
It will only be accomplished by conservatives holding Republican officeholders accountable, and it probably would not take more than a few before the others got the message.
It will never happen as long we can be counted on to pull the lever for anyone and everyone who sports an R. When Dem voters do that we call it “the plantation”.
neo on August 21, 2023 at 4:02 pm said:
TommyJay:
MSM outlets constantly use truncated quotes. It’s their bread and butter.
_______
And there hasn’t been enough praise to Cuccinelli for calling them out on it. He was, himself, an example of the establishment GOP dropping the ball. He could have won the governorship, if they’d given any significant help.
I will admit, though, that he did go out of his way to alienate a number of people in the Virginia Republican party.
But he is very clearly referring primarily and perhaps even exclusively to people in Congress who support Trump and yet are not especially conservative at all.
But who are those people, and are they really less conservative than Republicans who don’t support Trump and never will? Maybe he’s thinking of Elise Stefanik. I’d suppose that in her district, trade and immigration and fentanyl are bigger issues than much of what Ron DeSantis would call conservative issues. I’m not entirely sure that Stefanik and her constituents are wrong about that. The Ted Cruz playbook didn’t work well in 2016, and it may not work for DeSantis next year.
@ Abraxas:
I don’t see where you get the idea that, to DeSantis, “trade and immigration and fentanyl” aren’t conservative issues. Where has he shown himself a wimp; at least on the 2nd two he’s been quite strong. (Governors don’t have much to do with the trade issue.)
What I don’t care for is piling on all Republicans not tied to Trump, the sins of the McConnell faction.
I do see the reference to Nancy Mace on the other thread. I don’t know that much about her. She seems to be pretty erratic in supporting Trump, and I’m not sure that Trump supporters are cheering her on as she zigs and zags.
My point in mentioning Stefanik was to say that the “principled conservative” agenda before Trump ignored some issues that are very important to voters. If the principled conservatives have adopted them now it may be that they are the ones who are late to the party, not representatives like her.
I didn’t say that DeSantis didn’t care about trade or immigration or opiods now, just that those issues weren’t high on the conservative agenda before Trump, so DeSantis’s attack may not have been fair or very meaningful for many voters.
The DeSantis NeverTrumpers made a concerted push to get rid of Trump at the beginning of this year, and continuing. Talking him down in a variety of dishonest ways, misquoting, decontextualizing, flat out making stuff up, citing to polls (ooh, credible!), scoffing at anyone who would dare to disagree, and basically sounding a lot like the regular order media we’ve all grown to despise. It’s why this mischaracterization of what DeSantis actually said resonates. Trump supporters are very attuned to contempt. They’ve heard it all their lives. I’d say more but I strongly believe that this internecine warfare, which is encouraged by the vile media as any R candidate who dares to succeed, needs to end. Soon.
Globetrotter is calling out neo for being “defensive.”
Rich
This is exactly why Trump is so bad for the party… and the country…
yet another example of “WHY THE ACTUAL F&$K are you voting for this destructive force?”
“DeSantis Never Trumpers”
Wow.
Did they have lives pre-Trump? There is an opposite of OMB disease after all.
AMartel:
Please give us examples with links.
I read a lot online every single day in preparation for my posts. I have been doing this for almost 2 decades. What I saw was something quite different in this Trump vs. DeSantis fight. I saw the attacks go out from Trump to DeSantis even before DeSantis officially declared himself a candidate but when it began to be clear he probably would be declaring himself. Several pro-Trump bloggers immediately amplified the attacks, and many commenters fanned out from those blogs to spread the word. It was quick, it was duplicitous, and it involved a great many people. I’ve written about it many times.
DeSantis himself refrained from attacking Trump for a long time. I read the writings of his supporters, and I simply did not see what you’re reporting – not early and not even later, although it’s certainly possible that I missed something. No doubt there’s someone somewhere who has done it. But it is nothing even remotely resembling the speed, scope, and breadth of the misrepresentations from the Trump forces about DeSantis.
Lots of former Trump supporters are turned off by him at this point. They are not “NeverTrumpers” either; they are ex-supporters. Most of them would probably vote for him in the general vs. Biden. But they feel he is a loser at this point. His most fervent supporters cannot see that he has lost support.
Cult of personality?
Frederick:
Many commenters here and elsewhere used to explicitly say, “Burn it down.” The parties were and are the “uniparty.” No difference at all between the parties. These people do not constitute all of Trump’s support, of course. But they are the core. Absolutely. And if they say they will vote for no one but Trump even in the general – and I’ve read many comments – on other blogs in particular – that say that, then whether they are now shouting “burn it down!” or not they are in effect acting on that principle.
Rufus T. Firefly:
And yet polls disagree. Based on polls, DeSantis is doing far better in Iowa than Vivek. Of course, both are doing far worse than Trump.
On the other hand, I am surprised that Trump does not have 50% and over of the GOP voters there. His support stands around 42% at this point, in this and other polls. That means that if he faced only one opponent, he MIGHT be losing to that person. Of course, he might not – and also, he’s not facing only one opponent and probably won’t be facing only one opponent for a long, long time. The information at that link also indicates that his support among Iowa Republicans has dropped since June.
Eyes on the prize. Two of the six SCOTUS conservatives could end up being replaced by the next President. That’s what matters. In the meantime things will be said, feelings will be hurt, shots will be taken. Like Art Deco I’m also tired of the circular firing squad. If Desantis wants to be the nominee he’s gonna need the support of all republican voting factions to have any hope of getting elected and making Supreme Court nominations. These wordy lawyerly shots at some people isn’t the way to do it. This only helps the media and the Dems but I repeat myself.
crasey:
Trump attacks everybody who isn’t Trump or a Trump supporter.
And you have trouble with DeSantis’ “wordy lawyerly shots”? Interesting.
To paraphrase you with the protagonist reversed, it is Trump who is only helping the media and the Democrats.
“So there will be people who are huge Trump supporters, like in Congress, who have incredibly liberal left-wing records that is really just atrocious, and yet they’re viewed by some of these folks as, like, really, really good.
I guess, from subsequent comments, that this was directed at Stefanik. I was also annoyed at this. I don’t like Trump’s attacks on other Republicans but it worked for him in 2016. I still don ‘t like it. Most of his attacks are counterpunches but not all and I wish he would avoid them.
om on August 21, 2023 at 5:40 pm said:
“DeSantis Never Trumpers”
Wow.
Trump supporters have heard contempt all their lives.
Did they have lives pre-Trump? There is an opposite of OMB disease after all.
This is the sort of abuse the Trump supporters have heard all their lives. Neo’s favorite country song is all about this. Maybe those most held in contempt are the most fervent Trump supporters as every man’s hand (but his) seems against them. I have several graduate degrees but my father was a yellow dog Democrat and was furious about my first vote for Nixon in 1960. He had quit school at age 15 to join the Navy in 1918. He was doing pretty well when I was a child but he had lived through the Depression and never forgot it.
I just have never hear a valid reason for Trump hate. I’m not sure I’ll vote for him but he is functioning under pressure that few could survive.
Mike K:
I thought it was directed at Nancy Mace.
Frederick:
I didn’t say you had said or implied I hadn’t made it clear. I was reiterating what I had written in the post.
neo @ 5:40pm,
I am not rooting for Trump or DeSantis, just a fair fight to learn who are the best candidates for the country (including the others who will be on the ballot), but I saw it exactly as you relate in your comment.
Trump came out immaturely and viciously against DeSantis. Trump’s minions followed in lock step. DeSantis eventually started defending himself. Trump started it. No question. Trump has even admitted this. He sees himself as the incumbent and any GOP candidate challenging him is a traitor to the party.
And, of course Trump came out against DeSantis!
It’s classic Trump. It’s how he won the nomination last time. He picked off the opposition, one by one; each time focusing on the highest polling GOP candidate remaining. “Low energy Jeb,” “Little Marco,” (something about Ted Cruz’ wife being unattractive and his father killing JFK), “Mini Mike Bloomberg,” “Evan McMuffin…”
This attack on DeSantis’ word use is the very same thing that was constantly directed to Trump and his many loose verbal expressions. DeSantis should have been savvy enough to avoid this. Plus, to use the adjective “listless” next to “vessel” really suggests a ship moving on an upright bearing, leaning neither port nor starboard; DeSantis may have meant to use the far more common term “empty vessel.” There are other, far more direct (and impervious to media distortion) ways to say that people should be aware of the plusses and minuses of any political candidate and not follow someone blindly…but he wasn’t up to the task.
If DeSantis is such a zero, why are certain people on him constantly and not say Asa Hutchinson or Nikki H.? He has them worried because he produces.
This race has a long way to go and although I don’t read as much of the internet as you do Neo, I am starting to see some people I know & respect indicating that Trump is not the guy who can win. This started less than a month ago. Change.
In the vein of “great minds think alike”, I think you’ll be amused at how Ace has seemingly agreed with you. Just in case you haven’t already read it.
“He indicated, in his typical, detiorating-mental-health (sic) all-caps way, that he won’t be “DOING THE DEBATES,” plural, meaning he’s going to skip them all.
At least, so it seems. Who knows what goes on in his head.”
It’s a little rich to see the Trumpers deceptively parsing DeSantis.
Does anybody remember “Trump told people to inject bleach” or “Trump said white supremicists are fine people?” In both cases, Trump’s statements were much more inarticulate and ambiguous than what DeSantis said.
“MSM outlets constantly use truncated quotes. It’s their bread and butter.”
“Perhaps you don’t understand the way the MSM and his opponents (Trump forces in particular) work: they report on the few sentences that they can use to twist against him, not the rest.”
• Let’s see if most of us – who will vote for the Republican primary winner in the general election – can agree that DeSantis also understands how the MSM creates headlines & stories.
• Now let’s see if we can agree that DeSantis is using descriptions & statements that are more likely than not to be used by the MSM to create headlines & stories (e.g., “…people who are huge Trump supporters, like in Congress,…”, “…if all we are is listless vessels that are just supposed to follow whatever happens to come down the pike on Truth Social every morning…”).
• A key question is: Why does DeSantis want these headlines?
James S:
There is literally no way to avoid it. People can distort anything you say if they have a will to do it, and there is no way to be so careful that 100% of the time they cannot.
It’s not happening to the others because they don’t worry the Trump forces at the moment. Not because they’re so careful. And Trump is the last person to be careful.
Neo, I’m sorry you took it that way. My fault. Your little corner of the web is an island of sanity in an otherwise insane situation. I agree this is a game Trump likes play. I was just saying don’t play it. I intend to wait until it’s over and then drag as many as I can to the polls to support whoever is on the ballot opposite Biden or his last minute replacement.
We need more happy warriors and not so much infighting or we’re really doomed as you’ve been saying. My advice to any of them is live your principles and take your shots with a smile on your face and a twinkle in your eye. It worked pretty well in ’80. I think the country is hungry for it.
Mike K:
It seems that the “Trump supporters” referred to in this comment thread aren’t those who voted for him in 2020.
Nope, its those who appear to be “Only Donald or nothing.”
Cult of personality it seems. How is it different from the deification of BHO by the progressives and the Left? I don’t suffer from OMB syndrome but I see these extreme attacks on all Republicans aren’t President Trump to be indiscriminate and counterproductive.
Haven’t had time to read all the comments so I hope this isn’t a repeat of someone else’s comment.
It’s the politics of personal destruction. It’s been going on for quite a while now. I’s really a dirty, unethical way to try to win an election. Unfortunately, it works.
I wish the GOP would listen to Reagan’s Eleventh Commandment – Speak no evil of your fellow Republicans.
I look at the Republican field and don’t see any terrible people in the group. I question why so many are running. Other than Chris Christy, I don’t see any who are in it just to stick it to Trump.
I often wonder, when they have witnessed what the left has done to Trump, why they would want the job. Do they think the left is going to be kinder to them?
What I want in a candidate. Tell me what you believe, what your policies are, what experience you have, and why you think you can do the job. Please don’t tell me nasty fibs, or vicious rumors, or misquotes about your opponent(s). I would like to see American politicians get out of the gutter.
I know, it’s a vain hope. Thankfully, I can come to Neo’s and get the truth – at least as near as Neo can dig it out.
First, full disclosure: neither Trump nor DeSantis are my first or second choices for the nomination. Trump is not in the top three; possibly not in the top five. While I will support Trump without question if he wins the nomination, I think him as the nominee will be an utter disaster.
All that being said, this was an unforced error by DeSantis. I understand his words are being twisted out of context. That doesn’t change the fact that he should have chosen his words more carefully.
When you’re explaining, you’re losing.
I have little doubt DeSantis would make a better President than Trump, probably better than any of the other hopefuls. His track record is solid.
But…ya gotta actually when the nomination and the election! His campaign thus far has been utterly disappointing. Blame Trump and his minions all you want, but DeSantis and his staff knew (or should have known) what to expect. Trump fights dirty. They’ve done a pretty lousy job in responding to it.
its small beer, in the big scheme of things, brian kemp sanctioning a deeply flawed election system by not removing comandante fani willis, for the sake of the people of fulton county weighs heavier, so is the first round strikes against texas and georgia election laws, has kemp made any remarks about that?
Yes to what JJ says (8:07 pm).
We can hope that candidates at the Trump-less debate will focus on what they want to do for the country. That’s what Trump did in 2015-2016, and it’s why he won.
DeSantis didn’t say that all Trump supporters are “listless vessels”. He said that *if* their movement *were* listless vessels, it would not be long-lasting.
You could call this leadership.
It seems that normal, primary politics is going on. The Murdoch media complex is unabashedly supporting DeSantis. Trump supporters are fighting back. So what. Politics.
In normal times DeSantis is the guy. These are not normal times. If DeSantis is the nominee, I will support him. but as I’ve said before, it is clear that elections have become an illusion. Until the fraud of 2020 is acknowledged, nothing matters.
The Russia collusion hoax is the best evidence of the stolen 2020 election. The same cast of characters that told us that Trump was a Russian agent are telling us there is no evidence of election fraud. Just shutup. Ok, whatever.
One of the commenters here questioned why we would be on a suicide mission and support Trump as we were heading for the cliff.
We already went over the cliff.
Enjoy your flight. It has one stop. No return passengers.
There is no “Thelma and Louise, Part II.”
But you be you.
Yes om, you be you. Keep sucking your thumb.
Davemay on August 21, 2023 at 9:45 pm said:
It seems that normal, primary politics is going on. The Murdoch media complex is unabashedly supporting DeSantis. Trump supporters are fighting back. So what. Politics.
Yes, even my wife is noticing how Fox News has changed. I don’t give the Republican Party any money after they stiffed the two candidates in AZ. Until the 2020 election has been analyzed there will be no trust. I just hope that Trump runs his campaign on “Are you better off than you were in 2020?” Aside from Covid, which may well have been a biowar attack, that should be effective even with Independents who are not consumed with TDS.
Rufus, you are rooting for the best candidate? Can there be any doubt?
I have reached the point that I view the “Only Trumpers” with the same disdain that I formerly reserved for the “Never Trumpers”.
There is no coherent thinking in either case.
Fie!
Governor DeSantis has bigger problems than this.
Early on, he projected a very combative, Trump-like style, I assumed hoping to attract Trump supporters. But by doing so he’s alienated the very voters– Democrats who haven’t bought into the leftists driving their party and soccer mom Republicans who turned away from Trump.
Case in point. I was talking to a New Yorker outside my local Walmart. He detests Trump but would never vote for DeSantis because he banned “The Diary of Anne Franck” from public schools. Also my educator daughter told me she would never vote for DeSantis as he was too much like Trump and had banned black history from Florida schools.
I didn’t have an answer in either case. It turns out a high school in Florida did ban the graphic novel “Anne Frank’s Diary: The Graphic Adaptation” for minimizing the holocaust and explicit fantasies.
As to banning Black History, Florida did decide to not participate in an AP course in African American Studies due to topics that range far afield from Black history.
Sloppy reporting, or a bias meant to push an agenda? I think DeSantis, in his initial push to offer a MAGA populist alternative, has turned off the very people he needs. The media isn’t going to help him– any effort he makes to appeal to Trump voters will be used against him when he tries to appeal to low information voters that are happy to base their future on sound bites.
“any effort he makes to appeal to Trump voters will be used against him when he tries to appeal to low information voters that are happy to base their future on sound bites.”
This right here, is why a lot of Trump supporters are done with the GOP. THIS is what they think of us. We aren’t supposed to let our feelings be known. We are supposed to let them steal the election and shut up about it. Let it burn, as you say, Neo. What difference, at this point, does it make??
Brian E – I fear that you are correct. The attacks against DeSantis are silly, but they are breaking through. I fear that the right might have to become as good at hiding its intentions as the left has been over the past few decades. But “Democracy dies in darkness!” Sure, so says the foremost bringers of darkness.
Wendy Brown – Your comment is the height of irony. Trumpers have spent the past eight years lecturing to the rest of us about how we had to vote for a candidate that we hate because anything else was literally the equivalent of voting for Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden. And now, as soon as the GOP turns away from Trump you’re going to bolt and let Democrats win?
Understand that you’re not making any friends – except among Democrats. They love what you’re doing to the GOP.
And yes, the crazy things that Trumpers make GOP candidates say to win their votes do make it more difficult to win the general election. Trumpers are about 30% of the voting population who hold positions that the other 70% reject. It takes 50% +1 to win. You need to make friends and figure out how to coexist with other coalition members.
@Alan Plotkin
I meant every word I wrote about Donald Trump. He has gotten worse (especially since losing in 2020). For the record I did vote for him in 2020.
of course the florida press lies extravagantly, but lets face facts, brian kemp enabled stacey abrams and mark elias to steal the country, and she has faced no repercussions, thats I can see, although the initial steal was probably the sinema seat, (she was marginally better than jeff flake, but thats more like debating the type of poison, strychnine or cyanide, they both kill you, he has allowed fani willis to further destroy atlanta,
miguel cervantes – Stacy Abrams is not in office. Brian Kemp beat his Trump-backed primary opponent by 50 points. Brian Kemp won Georgia by 7 points. So Kemp allowed Democrats to steal elections against Trumper candidates but not against himself and other non-Trump Republicans? Or could it just be that Trumper candidates can’t win general elections outside of deep red states?
Also, Kirsten Sinema is one of the better (former) Democrats and Jeff Flake is aptly named, but suggesting that Sinema is better than Flake reall calls into question whether you are right of center at all.
I have despised jeff flake for 20 years, his groveling before fidel was exhibit A, but he didn’t even pretend to get things right, first they stole arpiao’s job, then they put in sinema, and then they went big in 2020, and then in 2022, they stole the whole state, so it could be any entry point of the invasion, jmmv
Bauxite,
Elections in Georgia are crooked as hell. Abrams said she had votes suppressed. Based on what I know of electronic voting, I am inclined to believe her. This why I find the Sturm und Drang of all this a distraction.
Actually, Bauxite, YOUR comment is the height of irony. You see, the GOP’s main tactic before Trump was to tell us all that staying home is a vote for Dems. Even though the GOP has done everything the Dems have done policy-wise, just at a slower pace.
Trump WAS the alternative. He was the one who was going to go after the establishment head on. He bit more off than he could chew, I’ll admit. But I don’t think that will be an issue during a second term.
As for “hate” – that’s an emotion you have to deal with. Hatred clouds logical judgment. Hence your inability to look at this logically. I hope, for your sake, that you can change that.
So Kemp allowed Democrats to steal elections against Trumper candidates but not against himself and other non-Trump Republicans?
You think the above is a coincidence?
so in point of fact, they burned down half the country, using focos, the word for urban insurgency, along marighelas lines, and they let the ‘firemen’ off the hook,
the only ones being charged seems to be like guiliani, who sentenced ma rosenberg of so called blm to 57 years, and clinton pardoned her after 17 years,
I Callahan:
Projection, much?
Plank and mote.
I Callahan – So who’s controlling this secret cabal that rigs elections in Georgia, is it Brian Kemp or Democrats? If it is Democrats, why isn’t Stacy Abrams governor? If it is Brian Kemp, explain how he managed to outperform Hershel Walker by seven points on the same ballot.
Your tinfoil hat is showing.
I Callahan – I will also add that you are not wrong about the pre-Trump GOP. But we’ve now had four elections with Trump at the helm of the party. We won the first by the literal skin of our teeth and have either lost or significantly underperformed in the other three.
It’s time to try something different. Something different doesn’t have to be a return to the pre-Trump status quo, and shouldn’t be. But losing with Trump in 2024 is just dumb.
Bauxite
“And yes, the crazy things that Trumpers make GOP candidates say to win their votes do make it more difficult to win the general election.”
That is so true and has been a major problem for Republican candidates. They have to mouth absurdities such as a total ban on abortion in all cases (including rape and incest) in order they think to please the most extreme base of the GOP only to find that in general elections they are stuck with absurdist positions. The Trumpers would prefer the Republican Party to lose if Trump is not the nominee. That is why Trump started praising Cuomo, Newsom, and Crist in order to trash DeSantis. Makes we wonder who is the real RINO?
@ Brooklyn Boy > “They have to mouth absurdities”
They don’t have to do anything; they choose to “mouth” something that they don’t actually believe in, then they deserve to lose.
My advice to politicians (which they won’t take):
Campaign on your own preferred policies, quit gaming the polls, and see how many people agree with you, rather than defrauding the public because you don’t think they are smart enough to know what they need and you have to fool them into voting for you for their own good.
@AesopFan
I agree with you. I recall Rick Perry (R. – TX) and Scott Walker (R. – WI) who were two successful governors coming across as ultra, ultra Right when in reality they were practical conservatives. Perry said something particularly stupid such as “Social Security is a Ponzi scheme” (it isn’t) and Walker at the GOP convention came across terribly, screaming like Rudy Giuliani would later at the 2016 GOP convention.
Brooklyn Boy:
I never thought either Rick Perry or Scott Walker came across as ultra-ultra right while governors.
@Bauxite:But we’ve now had four elections with Trump at the helm of the party.
Since when is Trump “at the helm of the party”? The Republican Party does not do his bidding and sabotaged many of his initiatives.
Trump ran for President and was President, yes, and of past Presidents like Reagan you could maybe say they were “at the helm of the party”. Trump is an outsider to the GOP and is treated like one.
But losing with Trump in 2024 is just dumb.
We will lose in 2024, with or without Trump, and yes it will be dumb, because the Republican Party is dumb and out of sync with reality. Reality is you get your ballots counted and the other guys’ excluded. Reality is that the Dems change the rules, and get Republicans indicted or otherwise hamstrung, wherever they have the power to do so. The Republican Party has accomplished nothing that would counter these things. It’s not because of Trump that they are failing. They have been failing at it for decades. Trump is the symptom, not the cause.
neo
“I never thought either Rick Perry or Scott Walker came across as ultra-ultra right while governors.”
Not as Governors. I was referring to both of them when they ran for the Republican nomination for President. As Governors they were practical, traditional conservatives. My point was that trying to win approval from the Trump faction made them say things that were frankly foolish and would be pinned on them if they won the nomination and had to face a national election.
chisholm had clipped his wings severely, plus he hired the likes of liz mair, and other professional idiots, oh george will’s wife,