Close harmony: Part IIC (the Bee Gees continued)
[NOTE: You knew it was coming, didn’t you?]
One of the things that seems to separate Bee Gee lovers from Bee Gee non-lovers (or even Bee Gee haters, of which there are quite a few) is tolerance for emotion in pop music or rock music. The Bee Gees had one big subject – love and especially heartbreak in love – and although all their songs are not on that subject, an awful lot of them are.
Of course, that’s true of pop music in general. But the Bee Gees’ voices – in particular, Robin’s high vibrato – were especially laden with emotion. Again, that’s not always true of the Bee Gees – see “Jive Talking” for example. But it’s true often enough over their five-decades-long career as a group. The three Gibb brothers often cited the influence of Roy Orbison, who was one of the first men in pop/rock to sing with great emotional vulnerability, and also – like the Bee Gees after him – had great range and sometimes sang in falsetto. The Bee Gees also acknowledged the Everly Brothers as a big influence, and they had plenty of emotion in their voices, too – as well as close harmony.
Here’s a YouTube reactor voicing a common emotional experience on listening to the Bee Gees. You hear many variations on this theme of emotion:
If you’re interested in their voices and what they could do with them, please watch the tail end of an interview the three did in 1989, just a throwaway moment when the interviewer asked them if they might sing something. They’ve been sitting at a table joking and casually talking with him for about 34 minutes and not singing at all. There is no music and no instruments. But after a moment of further joking, they suddenly oblige and jump into a brief sample of their singing, without any preparation at all. Unfortunately, embedding is disabled for the video, so just click on this link and start listening at 36:48, going to the end.
Here’s an isolated vocal track from “Nights On Broadway” which makes it easier to hear the different voices. There is no music here, so the silences represent instrumental portions in the finished produt. The first solo voice is Barry’s, then there are harmonies, followed by Robin singing part of the next verse solo, then harmonies again. They often used to trade off leads like that with Robin taking the most emotional lines of the song and making it seem as though the audience is hearing more of the person’s inner thoughts when he sings. Barry’s falsetto made its very first appearance in this song, mostly towards the end. In-between there’s a slow bridge I find especially beautiful:
Because the Bee Gees were completely self-taught – no singing lessons, no music lessons, unable to read music – their harmonies were unusual and apparently didn’t follow the normal patterns, giving them a unique (and I think haunting) quality. Barry explains (in a very recent interview):
When the Bee Gees recorded their songs, and when they did their acoustic medleys in concert, they insisted on using only one mic [words in brackets are mine]:
Chateau d’Herouville studio assistant Michel Marie [who helped with recording some of their “Saturday Night Fever” songs in France in the late 70s] recalls being amazed by the way the Bee Gees recorded their harmonies. “When I learnt they would be three to sing, I set up three different headphones and three different mics. They said ‘No, no!’ and asked me for a single mic, and no headphones — just a little speaker close to them. They sang together around the same mic, looking at each other. And when I heard them, I knew what ‘good singing’ meant : even on the first take, they were perfect, in tune, in the rhythm… I was not used to that from French singers!”
Music engineer John Merchant began working with the Bee Gees in the late ’80s…
“The way most artists record vocal harmonies is to record one [part] at a time and get that polished,” he said. “Then, you would stack the other harmonies on top of it. [The Bee Gees] would do that sometimes, but more often, they would go out with the three of them on one mic and work out how the harmonies should be, together…
Karl Richardson, an engineer who began working with The Bee Gees in the ‘70s, once said he’d tried to record them on separate mics, but it never really worked the way a single microphone did.
“The nature of their voices lent themselves to recording this way, too: Robin almost always had this cool vibrato in his delivery; Maurice had hardly any; and Barry would sometimes have vibrato and sometimes not, and when he did, it was more like tremolo,” Richardson said. “This gives you a very unique blend, which might at first seem very different from one another, but you have to remember that they’re brothers, so they have this DNA thing going.”…
Of course, recording simultaneously did present a challenge, in that all three vocal parts had become inseparably intertwined.
“If one harmony is too loud or too quiet, it’s baked in that way,” Merchant said. “There’s no way to do any of the cheats using the tools in the studio to fix intonation and balance. You can’t change any of that. And that takes real craft.”
…[T]he Bee Gees would do as many as 40 or 50 takes to make sure everything was perfect. It wasn’t because they rejected new technologies, Merchant said; in fact, they were quite willing to explore and invest in new developments as long is it didn’t compromise their musical integrity. They simply preferred to have things done correctly upfront and “let the musicality come from the musicians, and not from the techniques in the control room.
When it came to songwriting, Merchant said the Bee Gees would come in to the studio for marathon sessions where they’d set up a simple drum groove on the drum machine and toss around musical ideas for hours. Barry might play guitar while Maurice would play keyboard, and Robin would sing and come up with melodic or lyrical ideas…
The Bee Gees’ trademark harmonies were often accompanied by equally rich orchestral or brass arrangements. Though none of the brothers had ever learned [to] read music, that never stopped them from constructing lush musical worlds. Merchant said Barry would typically sing the instrumental ideas he had, which would then be transcribed and performed by other musicians…
…”It was unbelievable. Barry would change chords, and Maurice would be there immediately, like he knew where Barry was going. They locked in together in a way…
“They always knew what the other person was capable of, and so they would not rest until their brother had delivered that,” Merchant said. “It could be in terms of writing lyrics or melody or song structure or performances or arrangements. In all those things, they would challenge each other consistently.”
The brothers said they had ESP, and I suppose that’s as good an explanation as any. They also felt that their songs existed in some sense before they wrote them, and that they just received them – pulled them out of the air. This is not an uncommon thing for artists to say, including poets. Sometimes it’s almost like automatic writing. Of course, the skills must be there already, and the Bee Gees certainly had the skills.
[ADDENDUM: I probably should show the finished product with “Nights on Broadway.” Here it is (the gorgeous bridge begins at around 2:59). In this version Maurice does the falsetto ending, but in the studio version it’s Barry:
Live, 1975.]
I would love to see this. Unfortunately, Amazon at present is not selling any of the DVDs that are compatible in US players.
I’ve loved the Bee Gees’ music since forever, even their disco stuff, even though I wasn’t a big fan of the genre in general. The song that still blows me away is “Fanny, Be Tender With My Love.” The harmonies are so gorgeous and transcendent. I read somewhere or heard in an interview that they were trying to emulate Hall and Oates’s song “She’s Gone,” and you can hear snippets of that melody within “Fanny”, but the Bee Gees take it to a whole other level.
PatriotGal2257:
I have read that the Bee Gees didn’t perform “Fanny” live because the multiple tracking was too complicated and they couldn’t re-create the sound in concert to their satisfaction. They were perfectionists. Most of their songs could be sung very successfully in concert, but not that one. It’s a great song, though.
I would love to see this. Unfortunately, Amazon at present is not selling any of the DVDs that are compatible in US players.
PatriotGal2257:
One can change the region code on a DVD player a limited number of times from a computer:
https://www.wikihow.com/Change-DVD-Drive-Region-Code-in-Windows-10
If one often wishes to play DVDs from a different region code, some people buy an extra DVD player and set it to the other region.
I’ve bought a number of DVD sets for half-price with the European region code.
The interview The Bee Gees did in 1989 references the Sgt Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band Movie. The soundtrack, at a cost of 12 million bucks, was released first and produced several hits until the movie came out. Immediately the songs dropped out of the top 100. “More than four million copies of the record were taken off the shelves and shipped back to distributors, earning the soundtrack with the dubious distinction of being the first record to ‘return platinum.’” Eventually the soundtrack sales did cover the costs of the production of the movie.
Eva Marie:
Yes, they have said the movie was awful and they realized it was awful while they were making it, but their manager (who was the producer) wouldn’t release them although they asked to be released.
I’ve seen several interviews where they’ve referenced the movie and I admire their attitude. Everyone has failure in their lives. In their case, no anger, no blame. They shrugged it off and went on.
So, is it fair to say that earlier in life Robin’s teeth were pretty irregular?
Then later, he seems to have gotten them straightened.
Normally, would that be expected to change the sound of his voice? Have you ever heard an interview or read an article that talks about that? Or perhaps that would not affect one’s singing.
JimNorCal – that’s the reason Freddie Mercury didn’t fix his overbite.
On the interview, a good joke about St. Pepper was Barry saying they were told it was a very good career movement.
Robin (?) says “it was a bowel movement”.
A good part of Bee Gees hate is because they made that movie – which I never saw (and plan NOT to). They also noted that Peter Frampton had the largest selling album of the time (Frampton Comes Alive – I had it! Was good, but I never thought it was great.) The terrible movie was very bad for him, too.
I had not heard their cover of “Will you still love me, tomorrow”. Excellent. But no tear jerking for me over their singing. Near the end, the “glam rock” sort of bare chest macho look totally fails for me. Makes me think of an uncool guy trying, and failing, to look cool. Tho many pseudo-macho skinny rock stars also look similar, and also fail, but at least have rougher, tougher music.
BeeGees are definitely bigger talents than I gave them credit for, before.
Also better interview guests, definitely NOT spoiled. (So many non-spoiled grew up a bit poor, or very poor. More sincerely grateful for good things. A problem with modern plenty, too many kids are spoiled.)
They loved the Beatles. So do I – where’s a harmony comparison between the brothers and Liverpool’s most famous export?
Beatles? Meh.
When the Grateful Dead went into the studio to record the American Beauty album they were generally regarded as the band with the best musical chops in San Francisco so they made a conscious effort to work on their vocals, and the result has stood the test of time. When the band started Bob Weir was still pretty young and his voice hadn’t yet matured and Jerry Garcia’s singing voice was distinctive, but reedy. Phil Lesh was still capable of doing high harmonies on American Beauty but his voice later deepened, which is why Donna Godchaux joined the band. Pigpen also had a distinctive singing voice that I realy like but he could also be a bit reedy and to my ears he was consistantly a little bit flat, which actually works, to my ears.
The Bee Gees all have great voices and are siblings so the harmonies are natural. The Dead had four imperfect vocalists who, by the dint of sheer hard work, produced gorgeous harmonies.
The fact that Robert Hunter had given them some outstanding, timeless songs to work with didn’t hurt.
My favorite harmonies are on Attics of My Life but the entire album is a many faceted gem.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_f7RqEsydYY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGJnrVUF5qY
Tom Grey:
From my observations online, a lot of people who hate the Bee Gees know nothing about the Sergeant Pepper movie. A few do, but most don’t.
If you look at many people in rock or pop at that time (late 70s) and what they wore, that open-chest look was common. It wasn’t just the Bee Gees. And as far as many women (and some men) were concerned, they were the epitome of cool (particularly Barry) and sexy. The Bee Gees themselves have said their get-ups were basically promotional costumes, to get the crowd in a certain party mood. You can see that on their 1979 tour – the crowd was on fire.
In the 60s the Bee Gees were very Carnaby St. in their elegant dress, something their manager encouraged. Later, after the disco era, they dressed quite simply, mostly in black, although Mo sometimes favored a long leather coat (this is very typical). In real life the Bee Gees favored jeans and T-shirts. They were extremely down-to-earth guys.
As for harmony, I’ve always liked the Beatles’ harmonies, but the operative word is “like.” I love the Bee Gees’ harmonies, which affect me very differently. Their harmonies have a ring that gets much deeper inside whereas the Beatles are completely a surface thing for me. Of course, not everyone reacts that way, but a lot of people do and the ones who do are the Bee Gee core fans. They number many many millions around the world (very big in Latin America, for some reason).
As two examples of the kind of resonant (and to me, stirring) harmonies I’m talking about, I offer these Bee Gee clips:
In this next one, I’m speaking particularly of when they harmonize on the words “Blue Island”:
The Bee Gees said they were influenced by the Mills Brothers, the Everly Brothers, Roy Orbison, and the Beatles later on (the Bee Gees were performing before the Beatles were famous, although the Bee Gees were somewhat younger). The Bee Gees themselves discussed the Beatles’ harmony. The Bee Gees said that the Beatles harmonies were somewhat like sibling harmonies because the Beatles shared Liverpool origins and accents and cadences, which made their voices blend well with each other almost like siblings. To me, though, the Beatles never are moving, although they’re nice to listen to. The Bee Gees’ harmonies hit me on a much deeper level.
Tom Grey:
By the way, I’ve watched many Bee Gee interviews, and they’re almost always both interesting and entertaining, and very likeable. They also can be very very very funny in some, especially if they feel relaxed with the interviewer. When they were kids and young teens in Australia, part of their act (which was for adults, although they were a kid act – they performed to veterans’ clubs and the like) was to do humor as well as the singing.
Here’s an example. It’s pretty weird, but you have to imagine Australia in 1963 and earlier. The twins haven’t yet hit puberty here, but by this time the Bee Gees had been supporting their whole family in this way for quite some time.
JimNorCal; eva marie;
I wondered about that same thing with all three Bee Gees, who were very poor early in life and had really large and crooked teeth. Barry and Maurice had them fixed as soon as they made enough money, but there seemed to be a delay for Robin. Maybe he was concerned about it possibly changing his voice. And yes, I have read about that very thing in connection with Freddie Mercury, who also – interestingly enough – had a beautiful voice and prominent teeth that protruded somewhat. I have read that Freddie refused to straighten them or change them because he was worried that his voice would change. And I’ve also read that it’s certainly possible it could have changed as a result. However, Robin did finally have his fixed at least somewhat, although not to the degree his brothers did. Not sure what that was about, but apparently if it changed his voice at all it wasn’t much because a change in his voice wasn’t noticeable.
Enough with the music stuff, already.
Chet Baker, the great jazz trumpeter and vocalist of the “Cool” school, broke a tooth (accounts vary), ruined his embouchure and worked in a gas station until he retrained himself with new dentures. He came back, though I’m not an authority on how full his recovery was.
Baker’s story is sad, but he’s one of my favorite jazz players. He’s the one I always think of when neo does a “Funny Valentine” post. His music is perfect for a foggy Sunday afternoon in San Francisco.
–Chet Baker, “My Funny Valentine”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvXywhJpOKs
If anyone is curious about Chet Baker, the music documentary, “Let’s Get Lost,” is a great place to start.
“they insisted on using only one mic”
Years ago I took a course in recording from an old guy (almost as old as I am now!) who had started out in radio in the 1930s. He said that when stereo came in the 1950s, implying multiple microphones, some people said it would never work because of phase cancellation.
As for the BeeGees’ dress (or undress) in that era I’m reminded of the following:
“If you want to keep kids off drugs just show them pictures of how people dressed in the 60s and 70s”.
As a general rule, I let others’ powerful interests in sports or arts or stamp collecting or anything else go without comment. It’s their business and I have other things to do….
But the BG thread is tempting.
I was particularly interested in the issue of emotion in a song. Which is to say, putting it in. A singer so devastated as he sounds would collapse on stage, so it’s an artifact. That doesn’t make it illegitimate, but I can’t find it interesting.
For a cockamamie reason, I was corresponding with the author of a book on Viking history and for an even more cockamamie reason, I asked if there were an emotional connection between a Norse rune stone in Rus and a verse from The Ballad of William Sycamore.
Of his sons, the speaker says,
“They were right, tight boys
Never sulky or slow, fruitful, a goodly muster.
The eldest died at the Alamo, the youngest fell with Custer.”
Don’t ask. I discovered that there are a good many recitations, spoken and sung, of the poem. None of them, whatever the artists’ efforts, improved or even addressed the emotion in written word.
So I went back to various items, “Danny Boy” and others and….Jackie Evancho or any other artist….no addition to the emotional loading for me.
I imagine Johhny Cash and the Tennessee Two at a Legion hall north of Fargo one January afternoon trying to summon up one more shred of emotion fifty plus years ago. Might work.
But for me, nothing improves the written word, harmonies notwithstanding.
Richard Aubrey:
People not only have very different reactions to different singers, groups, and songs, but to music itself. Some people actually dislike music, all music (according to Oliver Sacks, anyway). It’s like they have no receptors for it. Others find listening to music an almost automatically emotional experience. And then there’s everyone in between.
For me, music tends to tap into emotions, and yet the emotions are not necessarily connected to the emotionalism of the singer (or whether there’s a singer at all). Some classical music without words is very emotionally evocative – much of Chopin, for example, which I love. Some very emotional singers who emote a lot – divas, for example Whitney Houston and Celine Dion – leave me cold. It is unpredictable. Whether the Bee Gees are actively emoting or not is not the issue for me – it’s the sound of their harmonies. I’m not sure why it happens, but it happens.
Hey Neo,
Ok, kind of off topic, or old business. But I needed a proper computer and screen to do the checking.
Your guess as to my recollection was probably partly correct. However, the image of the little guy with the do-rag or pirate head scarf prancing barefoot with with his buddy Mark, was undoubtedly a recollection of this.
Watch through 3:40
https://youtu.be/kd9TlGDZGkI?t=107
Now, remember, that I only mentioned it because I was asked.
I am not here to deliver gratuitous insults or rain on anyone’s parade. God knows we have enough of that in the world.
Also: Since delivering my earlier verdict I have watched about 7 or 8 more Dire Straits videos, and noticed that not all have the guys decked out as Rufus put it, like Jane Fonda.
Furthermore, I had forgotten about Cher’s career before she became a Gypsy, Tramp and Thief; when she had done a rather remarkable job on that jerky jangly and seemingly deliberately off-rhythm closing credit for “Alfie”.
Now, please just don’t anyone ask me what I think of Paul Anka, or that other similar guy with the high pitched voice …
I find the questions of emotions and emoting in art fascinating. I sure have no answers. I prefer to feel the artist is being authentic, whatever that means, but even granting it, how many more times can authenticity be performed without becoming shtick?
Then, on the other side of that, what if it is shtick? May it still not be valuable, when the performer and the audience accept the illusion for the satisfaction of it?
I once read a tell-all biography of Janis Joplin. I didn’t take it seriously, but there was an anecdote… One night Janis took her friend way out into the Gulf swamps where there was no one around and it was dark. So they parked, then Janis got out of the car and practiced her screams.
Ha … Reminds me of a somewhat uncomfortable episode in school. An, if not exactly beloved, then well-regarded professor, was wrapping up the last few classes on a course on classical, meaning ancient or of antiquity, philosophy.
We were down to the late classical period, when apparently he had some mishap with what must have been a partial bridge. Because, he lisped tho bath that efery fing he thaid thounded hilaiouths.
It was horrible. Just trying not to laugh, took all my concentration. Telling myself it was not funny and unthinkable to laugh, just made it worse.
You can imagine what it was like listening to him expound on Boethius, or Porphyry, or the Pseudo Areopagite.
Richard Aubrey,
Many years ago I saw an interview with Billy Joel (I think it was “60 Minutes”) and he demonstrated to the interviewer what is going on inside his head when he performs (he chose the seemingly very personal and heartfelt, “Just the Way You Are”) for his example.
He played the chords and melody perfectly, sang the lyrics beautifully, all the while keeping a straight, bland affect on his visage and between the lyrics inserting his inner dialogue, “I wonder if room service will have the corned beef again tonight?” “What’s up with that couple in the third row? He looks like a goof and she could do better.” “I hope traffic to the airport isn’t too congested…”
Has to be even worse for the one hit wonders. At least Joel has many concerts full of hits he can choose to wander through every night.
huxley,
Ignoring pandemics, my band usually plays every three weeks. We have a repertoire of over 300 songs, but we typically change our sets slowly, over time. On any given night it’s always possible our leader will get a bug and throw in something we haven’t played for a year, or more, or we’ll get a request, but we’re typically playing the same 75%, or so (although their positions in the set lists are always moving). The 75% change over time, but they move in and out of the set lists gradually. In other words, there is a lot of repetition.
I usually sing 2 or 3 songs a night and play on the other 15 – 30. I never have to fake sincere joy when playing. It’s such a kick joking with my bandmates, critiquing one another’s solos, commenting on folks on the dance floor and in the audience. I really enjoy watching my bandmates play. I don’t have to fake that.
And there’s never a perfect song. No matter how many times I’ve played a song I’ll still learn new things to do with my part, often on the fly, while we’re playing a show.
Singing, however, is a whole different thing. It’s new to me and the emotion part of it is something I really have to work on. I want to hit the notes cleanly and clearly (and in key) and that concentration can make me forget that my expressions, posture, hand gestures… all matter also. As I sing I pay attention to the lyrics and their meaning, and I think that helps me come across as more sincere. If it’s a phrase about longing I try to make it sound like longing, if it’s a phrase about joy I try to make it sound like joy. But I’m never thinking about anything real, in my personal life. It’s all very mechanical for me. Consonants. Vowel sounds. Breath. The last thing I remind myself each time I step up to the microphone is, “Be confident. The audience wants you to appear confident.”
If I had to play every night, for a living, I imagine even the playing part could get stale, but maybe not. Playing music is a lot of fun. However, I cannot imagine singing every night. If I’m having an off night it’s easy to hide behind my instrument. Singers have nowhere to hide.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Leonard Cohen said it mattered to him whether he could perform a song and mean it. If not, he preferred to retire the song until he could find a way to mean it.
Nonetheless, I imagine there were times onstage Cohen wondered if he could get a good pastrami sandwich later.
I only went to one Cohen concert. It was the “I’m Your Man” tour at Zellerbach Hall in UC Berkeley, which seats 2000. My girlfriend came and I had a pair of binoculars with me. She watched Cohen through the binocs and said, “It’s like he’s looking right at you!” It was. And he looked totally sincere.
Years later, I read how he practiced for long hours singing in front of a full-length mirror.
I hope no one believes I think the less of Cohen or Joplin for these stories.
Hey Rufus,
Willing to spend 10 minutes doing me a favor?
Since, you are a semi-professional musician … Describe if you will, the arrangement and the delivery of the Alfie closing credits performance in proper musical terms. Especially with regard to timing and the lyrics.
I don’t know if it is off-beat, or not. They say Sinatra used to deliberately withhold a word or phrase for effect on occasion.
But I am not sure of what I am hearing in that final performance in the soundtrack.
What’s going on there? In technical terms, that is. If indeed anything unusual at all.
huxley
Try full-out screaming. Wears on the vocal cords as yelling does not. I heard some voice coaches are employed to teach authentic sounding screams which do not tear up the equipment.
Maybe Joplin was doing vocal calisthenics….
“Mille regret” is covered a couple of dozen times on youtube. My fave is by Paula bar Giese. I could listen to it a dozen times in a row. But my French is long gone, so I got a translation. It’s an apology for dumping somebody, which you have to admit is a rare take in the dumping/being dumped genre. So I thought back. Yeah. I can see it. No change in my feelings for it.
Strange, I guess.
The only emotion is when a song is associated with some event which hit me one way or another. “Il Sllenzio” is pretty tough.
Ok. My final comment to Neo, regarding old business as well.
Neo, you mentioned the novel Steppenwolf to me earlier, and the protagonist’s encounter with Pablo.
I remember something of it – I am going to look it up later – especially with regard to the fact that I could not really figure out the stance of the author. It was making me queasy
It was obvious the kind of journey he had sent Harry [and us] on, but I balked when some kind of sexual degeneracy was being promoted to Harry, without any editorial indication of the author’s stance. Hey man, as Biden would say, why even include that crud in there?
All the sudden the text itself becomes alienating and you cannot any longer follow sympathetically along on the journey while identifying to at least to some extent with the protagonist, because the author has just thrown a s–t pie in your face.
But, to the theme of the music. As you recall, a particular foxtrot repeatedly appeared and became, as I recall, more and more hypnotic in its effect on Haller.
Now, I think I recall the song as being “Yearning”. But like much else about the book, I’m no longer sure so many decades after having read it.
Here’s the deal though, as I read, I recall I could hear the tune in my head. Why? Those two “old guys” I referred to in the past, used to play many tunes like that.
But in fact, what I was hearing in my head, was not probably not “Yearning”, but “Whispering”, or “Heartaches” LOL
So much for my musical, AND my literary expertise.
Of course the song in the text may not have been “Yearning” after all. Which will just make it all worse.
Re performing and emotion: I read somewhere that Kurt Cobain was unable to cope with the fact that frequent performing inevitably meant that he was often more or less just going through the motions, not really feeling it, and that it made him feel that he was living a lie. That struck me as very sad but I can see how a performer would get into that kind of mental trap.
Try full-out screaming. Wears on the vocal cords as yelling does not. I heard some voice coaches are employed to teach authentic sounding screams which do not tear up the equipment.
Richard Aubrey:
Janis had plenty of problems, but not with her voice so far as I know. I believe she found her way to scream safely. Here are some classic Janis screams:
–Janis Joplin, “Take Another Piece of My Heart”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCngPse1iiI
Bruce Springsteen could belt it out in scream territory. He was once asked if he had trouble, but no. Meanwhile Stevie Nicks with a non-screamy style did have nodules on her vocal cords. Though there was a cocaine issue too.
Since this is a Bee Gees topic, here’s Joplin’s version of “To Love Somebody,” which sure rings my bell. I was shocked to my toes to learn it’s a Barry and Robin Gibb song.
–Janis Joplin – To Love Somebody (Official Audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYdIeorcwbc
That down-to-the-bone, raw, molten conviction Janis could bring to anything she sang…
huxley:
Nina Simone covered it, too, both live and in a studio version. Here’s a live version.
I’ve read that there have been well over 100 covers of that one song. It was originally written for Otis Redding by the Bee Gees, but he died before recording it. You might be surprised to learn that these also were written by the Bee Gees, for these particular artists: Islands in the Stream, Heartbreaker, Woman in Love, and Chain Reaction. Their forte was writing songs that really suited each artist’s strengths.
DNW:
You seem to be bothered by things that don’t even register on my radar screen, such as that guy in the “Walk of Life” video you linked. I may have already asked you this, but if you’ve answered I’ve forgotten your answer: how old were you in the 60s and 70s and early 80s? Because that outfit and that behavior was so so mild compared to what was pretty much the norm then, especially for many performers, I’m wondering if you were very young at the time or something like that.
Oh, that bridge from Nights on Broadway! And the vocal harmonies of the songs you posted in the comments – glorious from start to finish. Thanks for the YouTube links.
Beyond the typical instruments found in rock/pop (guitars, keyboard, drums), the Bee Gees used orchestral sounds in their early melodies and horns in many of their r&b hits. But what I find amazing is that they can pare down a song by singing an acoustic version in concert, accompanied only by a guitar – and they sound incredible!! That’s when you realize that their melodies and vocal harmonies carry the show; the instrumentation is icing on the cake.
As they demonstrated in that interview clip, how many bands could burst into song and harmonize perfectly on the spot, with their voices being the sole instruments? This, without the benefit of studio-type acoustics? And no re-dos. How many bands would have the confidence to even try?
Apparently the HBO documentary has generated a lot of new fans and a newfound appreciation of The Bee Gees’ staggering talent. Neo’s posts have done the same for me, so I can relate to this comment I found on You Tube: “Since watching it on HBO three weeks ago I have done nothing but listen to their music, watch their videos and interviews. I catch myself singing their songs all day in my head and every day it’s a different song!”
Judging by the comments on their videos, the Bee Gees have this effect on a LOT of people. It’s a deep and powerful emotional response that’s hard to define. But I’m thrilled to be experiencing it and I gladly give full credit to Neo for my Bee Gees obsession!
On the topic of singers practicing their craft – so that they sound authentically emotional and spontaneous.
Winston Churchill did the same.
I remembered reading some years ago about his procedure for writing and delivering his speeches, and although this is probably NOT the piece I read then, it covers the same territory.
This is a short excerpt from a very long and worthwhile article.
https://www.artofmanliness.com/articles/guide-to-public-speaking/
A shorter exposition of the same topic (NPR is okay so long as they stay out of politics — which is less and less the case), from which I quote only the final words, which the National Progressive Radio hosts likely would not recognize as applying to themselves today.
https://www.npr.org/2012/07/14/156720829/winston-churchills-way-with-words
PS to huxley from 3/12 thead – congrats on the accolade from your math prof for finding A Better Way.
“Plus the textbook had one of the worst explanations I’ve seen anywhere.”
I have tried to help my grandkids with their math classes, but the directions they are given these days for solving problems are hopelessly convoluted, difficult, and harder than they need to be.
One is reminded, of course, of the Asimov story on the rediscovery of long division and other arcane mathematical feats in the Computer Age, “The Feeling of Power.”
https://archive.org/details/1958-02_IF/page/n5/mode/2up?view=theater
They really harmonized so well. Thanks neo for bringing back so many nice memories for me!!
DNW,
I am sincerely not a good musician, just a curious human who loves to challenge myself and learn new things, but I will take a crack at your Cher assignment.
DNW,
Regarding Alfie, I think I found what you are referencing. Hopefully I listened to the right version. It seems to match your description: https://youtu.be/48oLsDImC5A
My first impression is I doubt I’ll do a better job breaking it down than you did with: “… that jerky jangly and seemingly deliberately off-rhythm closing credit for ‘Alfie’.”
I don’t think I had ever heard it before and a bit of research shows that Dionne Warwick had the bigger hit with the song. That’s the one I know and I prefer that version. It’s a matter of taste. The Cher version isn’t better or worse. She, or the film’s music arranger or both, was trying to do something different than Dionne Warwick and her arranger.
Regarding your request:
It changes. Starts out slow, serious, sort of operatic then, right after Cher sings, “kind… and…” it changes to a primitive rock beat with heavy emphasis on the 1st and 3rd beat. But, as you stated, the beat is a bit off. Hesitant. Which is more common in Blues music. Cher’s singing throughout is rather free-form, detached from the precise rhythm of the song, no matter what the rhythm is doing. What’s odd about the rhythm at that point is it’s also sort-of folky in the very traditional meaning of the word, like rustic, folk music from the hills of eastern Europe. Similar to what Kurt Weill did with the songs in the musical, “Die Dreigroschenoper.” The drums and one other instrument (I think it’s a guitar) are the only instruments that follow that pattern in this section. The other instruments (flute, violins) continue as in the first section; airy and in proper rhythm.
Then, at “…g-o-l-d-e-n rule…” it basically becomes a march. A bit reminiscent of Ravel’s, “Bolero.”
Then another change, “… non believers can believe in…” briefly back into the prior section with hesitant rhythm and airy, flowery, on tempo flute. Then a ritardo into a climax where the drums and bass drop out and it’s Cher singing at that free form tempo with some instrumental flourishes between lyrics. Interestingly, she rushes the word, “day” in that section which kind-of botches the rhyme. I assume that’s intentional, but it doesn’t connect with me. I’ll add that Cher misses more than a few notes. Although I doubt it’s intentional on her part, whomever was recording the soundtrack likely did not mind. It seems like the goal was something very free form with the vocal. That may even by why Cher was picked. From what I know she had no formal musical training. It seems like they wanted a free feel.
So, again, I think you stated it well, but if I had to be more succinct than the above I’d say it’s a jazz vocal over a blues rhythm and traditionally played melody. I haven’t seen the movie, but based on what I know of it maybe whomever was directing the screenplay wanted the end credits to mirror the emotion in the film; a fun loving character navigating the seriousness of life? The flute and violins are a higher power staying with him throughout and trying to connect with him (or simply the love that is always around all of us)? The drums and bass are him clumsily plodding along, often missing the higher meaning of what is going on around him? The vocal is a narrative describing the events, outlining his mis-steps but filled with hope that he will come home? Whether my hunch is right, or not, the conductor? band leader? composer? was certainly reaching for something artistic. It didn’t connect with me, but I’m not of that era so it’s not fair for me to judge. It may have been a perfect fit for the film and audience.
Regarding what you wrote about holding back, and Sinatra. In some music a tension and release can be very effective. Neo’s written about that a few times regarding the Bee Gees. In biographies of Sinatra I’ve seen a fair amount of emphasis on him being the first pop singer who altered how he sang a lyric based on the word and its meaning. While I doubt that’s true. I can’t imagine he was the first, he did seem to do it in an innovative way. It is evident that he put a lot of thought into that aspect of singing. You hear holding back a lot in blues and jazz.
DNW:
I read Sttepenwolf so long ago that most of the details escape me. But I do remember some sexually androgynous figures, and a foxtrot. My understanding of the theme is that it had to do with what Kundera might term heaviness vs. lightness in a person’s attitude towards life. The protagonist was taught to take things more lightly, I would say. A very strange book, but I remember finding it interesting.
Not yet too much Bee Gees, nor too much music.
Forgot to say a Big Thanks for the Nights on Broadway, especially the Vocal track.
Was fun to see the 3 young guys in ’63 – reminded me of Mary Poppins / Dick Van Dyke. (Curiously, my kids all liked Chitty-Chitty Bang-Bang more, but I didn’t.)
Recently on a walk in the forest I saw some kites in clearing on the hilltop and broke out, in my mind only, with “Let’s go Fly a Kite”.
I’m glad Bee Gees are generating some buzz – sure wish something, anything, would reduce the excessive Rap-cRap that even infects Slovak radio & new Slovak rap songs.
I seldom “believe” in the singers’ emotion, but I try to allow myself to feel whatever I feel when listening. Mostly want to just sort of feel good. Prefer if I can sing along with good pop songs, tho it’s not necessary.
Don’t feel too much for Bee Gees, nor care to learn the lyrics of their songs to sing along with them. I can sing along with most Beatles hits; and also Simon & Garfunkel.
(Fun line from a Bare Naked Ladies song about buying some Art:
maybe a Picasso, or a Garfunkel) [If I had $1,000,000] I like Art’s voice, but don’t believe his emotion; was more believable with Paul Simon, somehow.
A recent emotional song for me is Human, by The Killers
Are we human? or are we dancer? …
I don’t believe the singer’s emotion here, either – yet the lyrics plus music moves me, quite strongly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RIZdjT1472Y
Often my Slovak wife asks me what some lyrics mean. I reply:
“It’s Art. It means what it means to you.”
We both usually smile, then. 🙂
Tom Grey:
There’s the phenomenon of overt emotion in a singer’s voice, and then there’s emotion conveyed mostly in the words or the sound. I tend to prefer the latter rather than very emotive voices, although I make an exception for the Bee Gees (especially Robin) but it’s mainly their harmonies that move me even when there are no words (for example, the “Ah”s on “Had a Lot of Love Last Night” that I inserted in my comment at 3:24 PM yesterday).
Or, in the Jackson Browne song “The Pretender,” Browne’s singing is not especially emotional on the surface, but for me there is tremendous emotion in the lyric itself and that emotion is heightened by the calmness of the singer. For example, for me, the lines:
I don’t expect everyone to be moved by that, but for me it’s very evocative. The veterans and the children as much as the rest. It’s the word “solemnly” that gets me about the children.
Celadon; BrooklynBoy:
Glad you’re enjoying them.
Celadon – you sound like me re the Bee Gees. Some of us really get hooked.
You are correct that we recently addressed this.
https://www.thenewneo.com/2021/03/06/reaction-videos-the-bee-gees-through-young-ears/#comment-2545349
As I see it, there are two discrete issues here pertaining to audience reactions,
1, the music, per se
2, the accompanying sales presentation and any visual messaging, if intended.
I have already acknowledged that Dire Straits came on to the scene – a rather stale one – with a novel and intriguing sound. I have acknowledged that Knopfler is a creative and interesting guitar player. And, that I am not trying to rain on anyone’s parade as this is much a matter of taste and personal vibes.
I also think that with Dire Straits though, the sound became relatively quickly formulaic, and that its ongoing appeal was mainly to fans with whom the resonance was somehow more global or organic. Thus, a real Straits fan is hearing and seeing and deriving from the performance what a casual listener is not.
How many Duane Eddy tunes can you listen to? Two? Then, it’s, “Yeah, ok, nice, I heard that already”
Hence my original question regarding the contextual significance of the lyrics, which I could not sit still long enough to extract from the performance.
From my retrospective point of view, listening to Dire Straits, is like trying to listen to The Grateful Dead, or Gordon Lightfoot: a little of it, initially experienced as refreshing and novel, goes a very long way, and soon begins to sound all the same.
So when you are hearing and not seeing, and perhaps only mildly if at all connecting with the music, you might be much more likely to grimace over other aspects you encounter which big fans readily consume as part of the feast.
2 , We won’t get into that 2nd aspect though, because it will involve us in questions of what amounts to advertising psychology. Or alternatively, one of whether the rules of advertising psychology, ego ideals, aspiration, and identification, even apply.
As for my own reactions to costuming in and of itself: Although I am in general dismissive of it, and yeah, maybe a bit contemptuous of souls who excitedly play dress-up for their acts, be they seen on the stage of the Grand Ole Opry, or up there with Kiss or ABBA … dressing grunge instead, or donning blue jeans and shit kickers instead of Jane Fonda or Space Oddity Wear, is not going to get me to sit through Fogerty’s “Centerfield” or Seger’s “Mainstreet”, either.***
But … just my preferences. No more than that.
*** Half novelty songs , which I find somewhat reminiscent of the ‘Walk of Life” for that very reason …
DNW:
Perhaps age has something to do with it, then. Perhaps not. Perhaps it’s just personality and relation to music, lyrics, costume, performance, etc.
I have to say, though, that I find Dire Straits’ songs to have great variety. Tremendous variety, actually. And they also are played differently, quite differently, in each live performance. That makes them continually fresh for me even if I’m familiar with the song itself. For me, the same version also bears much repetition. I love the sound of Knopfler’s guitar, just love it. It is so melodic and twangy. And I like his voice as well. I couldn’t care less what he wears or what anyone in his band wears. Literally could not care less.
For me, if I really like a group or a singer/musician, I can listen over and over and over again. Performers who come to mind are Knopfler, the Bee Gees, Richard Thompson, Leonard Cohen, and a few others too. Some classical works as well, mostly Chopin and some Bach and Tchaikovsky.
DNW, Rufus T. Firefly:
I’ve read that Sinatra was the first singer, or at least the first major one, to exploit the new microphone technology to sing intimately without being overpowered by the orchestra.
At the risk of short-circuiting these discussions, I wonder if we are getting overly analytical about what are simply matters of personal taste. E. g., “it all sounds the same”. This is how people often react when they don’t particularly care for a certain group, or style. If you don’t like country music, “it all sounds the same”. Or blues. Or heavy metal. Or big band music. If you *do* like that genre, for whatever reason, then you will explore it more and become more aware of the nuances.
Or take Beatles vs. BeeGees. To me the commonalities vastly outweigh the differences. Both are excellent harmony singers and feature prolific, melodic, accessible pop songwriting which is why both have been enormously popular.
Some dissenters for both. Commenters here are debating which is more “emotional” but that reaction may originate in the listener as much if not more than the group. Consider Rufus’ comment (3/14 9:21pm) on what went through Billy Joel’s mind when he was performing.
FOAF:
I agree that the idiosyncrasies of personal taste are a big part of it. But I have never felt that the performers that I don’t like “all sound the same.” Maybe rap artists – although I’m not familiar with enough of them to say – but only because they rely more on rhythm than melody. The lack of melody sounds a bit “the same” to me.
Not that certain genres don’t have commonalities within the genre. For example, R&B or disco. But even within the genre, they don’t all sound the same to me.
To me, the Beatles and the Bee Gees sound very different from each other, although I can see that they are more similar to each other than each is to most other groups, at least their 60s stuff. Not similar later, at all. A few Bee Gees songs of the 60s, such as “Lonely Days,” for example, sound more Beatles-ish to me than other Bee Gees songs. But I never was at all likely to mistake one group for the other – although many people did back then.
On the subject of performing – it’s interesting that the Beatles stopped performing live early on. Crowds were so loud and hysterical that they couldn’t even hear themselves sing. But I think there was another reason – they were bored with performing by then and preferred the studio. They broke up early, too.
The Bee Gees always said they liked performing but they liked the studio even better – they loved writing the songs. But when they performed they were perfectionists and very committed to giving the audience a good show. Robin said in an interview once that Barry in particular always gave himself 100% to every song he sang when he performed. I’m not sure how that is done, but it can be done.
It is something that actors in long-run Broadway plays wrestle with, as well. Some are more successful at it than others.
Thank you, Rufus.
You (one does) run into some odd or overlooked material scrounging the old gold and silver veins in the abandoned music mines of YouTube.
Johnny Rivers, “Sunny”, live at Whiskey A Go-Go. Try to figure out exactly what was going on there [ my rumination, not another challenge or request for a favor]…. sounds to me like he is following a half beat behind his own rhythm chording. But I kind of like it. LOL
The last sweet-voiced troubadours of our time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4pmxLT7Zlc
These have been interesting discussions. Extremely interesting.
I got to college in 62 and, between that and the Army, lived in dorms, and other mass residences for about nine years.
If I figure I started hearing rock on (others’) radio and record players in 60, say, that was maybe a dozen years when I couldn’t get away from it.
For some reason, I never cared for it. Maybe Grace Slick a couple of times….
It’s interesting to see how much people know about the subject, the techniques, the performers, the histories. Apparently, it’s HARD to make this music which sounds so–carefully scripted to be–unscripted.
I’ve been invited not to sing in a number of venues. And I cannot fathom how little marks on paper make your fingers do slightly different things on the strings, keys, valves. And don’t get me started trying to understand how that works with brass. And the organist’s feet…..
As I say, to the extent any rock song interests me, it’s the association with something going on at the time, big deal or little and personal. Otherwise….nada.
But very interesting discussions.