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Home » Permanent Daylight Savings Time?

Permanent Daylight Savings Time?

The New Neo Posted on by

Congress may be about to make Daylight Savings Time the permanent time in the US, rather than shifting back and forth seasonally between Standard and DST. The seasonal shifting is annoying to many people, but the change would pit the Morning People against the Night People.

Summer isn’t the problem; it’s winter that creates the issue. Do you want you or your children to get up in the dark to go to work or school – something you may be doing already anyway if your start time is early? Or do you want the depressing experience of night falling long before the afternoon is finished? Your answer matters not only on whether you favor Night or Morning, plus how early work or school starts, but on your latitude and your east-west location in your time zone. The more north you live and the more to the east in your zone, the more extreme your winter/summer sunrise and sunset times.

I live in the north, and I live in the east of a time zone, and let’s just say I’ve never been a Morning Person. Even as a little child – and I mean aged 2 or 3 – I would balk at going to bed for the evening in what I considered the daytime. Luckily, though, because I lived in NYC, school began at 9 AM and I never had to get up for school in the dark until I started junior high.

I’d like to see school begin at 9 AM for everyone. There’s evidence that children, especially teenagers, have trouble with the early start times because they need a lot of sleep. My junior high and high school were overcrowded and we had split sessions at times, and I still remember what it felt like when school began at 7:30 AM. And no one cared that we were going to school in the dark, either.

I’m not at all sure this bill will pass the Senate, so it could all be moot.

I will now quote Robert Louis Stevenson’s poem which I loved as a child, for obvious reasons:

BED IN SUMMER

In winter I get up at night
And dress by yellow candle-light.
In summer, quite the other way,
I have to go to bed by day.

I have to go to bed and see
The birds still hopping on the tree,
Or hear the grown-up people’s feet
Still going past me in the street.

And does it not seem hard to you,
When all the sky is clear and blue,
And I should like so much to play,
To have to go to bed by day?

And now I’ve updated it for the present dilemma. I only took about ten minutes to do it, so it’s not one of my better efforts. But I couldn’t resist:

Would you prefer the winter dark
In morning to delay the lark?
Or have it be in afternoon
That you can spy the rising moon?

Because there’s no way to evade
The shortened days that winter made.
You have to choose your times, and then
In summer find long days again.

The Morning People rise with joy
In all seasons, but they annoy
We Night Folk, who would like to sleep
While birds are silent, not a peep.

But summer is the season all
Are happy with the late nightfall.
The further north that you reside
The more the daylight does abide.

Comments

Permanent Daylight Savings Time? — 47 Comments

  1. Maybe better than this bi annual clock change. Would rather permanently standard time. Worse will be in far north winter won’t see sun rise until maybe 8am.

  2. President Nixon tried going to Daylight Saving Time in February (I’m quite sure) during the early-1974 oil crunch, thinking it would lead to less energy consumption.

    I never quite bought into the reasoning, but I do remember reports of little schoolchildren being harmed early in the morning due to the darkness.

  4. I agree with Skip, largely on the grounds that I do not approve of people deceiving themselves. The sun is supposed to be highest at noon, not at 1:00 pm — in the center of the time zone, at least. (Did I just now refute my own argument??)

    —- —- —- —- —-

    Edit: . . . and I agree with SCOTT OLSON.

  5. Why can’t we just return to Standard Time and winter hours for business, schools, etc that dealt with the morning darkness before Congress “fixed” it with Daylight Savings Time?

  6. I’d go with Standard Time.

    Daylight Savings Time is for golfers. I was a surfer.

  7. I have nothing to add to anything that I said the last time this came up here. The tl; dr version is that we don’t need Soviet power to redefine noon for everybody:

    All those who want to live on permanent daylight time are in luck: they can, whenever they wish, all they have to do is get up and go to bed one hour later. They can even, if they wish, set their own clocks forward one hour. Or even two! They don’t need the government to make a proclamation to give them permission, we are a free people.

    And those who do not wish to be late for appointments can get ready ten minutes earlier, or they can set their clocks forward ten minutes. We’re free to do that, or not.

  9. I am a old Boomer, soon to be 80. Didn’t have clocks changing when I was a kid. I survived.

  10. ambisinistral (7:26 pm) said: “I’m retired, so I don’t care. I go to sleep when I’m tired and wake up whenever — I don’t even have an alarm clock anymore.”

    I’m retired, too. My bladder doubles as my alarm clock — unfailing!

  11. I wake up predawn regardless of clock time. If it is light enough to see, I’m up. Doesn’t matter if I go to bed @8 or 1am. I never needed an alarm. I made first breakfast today @4:30. Obviously, I get way more sleep in the winter.

    I serve my wife breakfast in bed everyday. Sometimes there is a follow-up brunch in summer around 10.

  12. I would prefer permanent standard time, but I will accept permanent +1 hour time. What I hate is the spring and fall changes.

    I think I have to correct, you, Neo, however. The bill, if passed, would allow states to opt into permanent daylight time. You’d still be dependent on what your state legislature and governor choose to do. Some states may choose to stay on standard time.

  14. People keep claiming we would have different daylight hours in winter with permanent standard time. We wouldn’t. Daylight saving time ends in November and restarts in April. With permanent DST, northern states wouldn’t get daylight till after 8 AM. Sun up on Dec. 21 where I live would be 8:55 AM. But, of course, a politician will always misidentify a problem and choose the worst solution, it just stands to figure.

  15. The fact that the proposed bill is called the “Sunshine Protection Act” shows that these people have not thought through this very well.

  16. Kate:

    Well, that’s the worst solution of all. Worse than what we have now. That means that even in the same time zone, hours could vary from state to state. In particular, if you live near a border between two such states, it would be far more confusing than anything we have now.

  19. I’m a definite night owl but I’m retired so my schedule is totally flexible.

  21. I’m retired, so it won’t affect me much, though the purist in me would prefer permanent standard time to permanent DST.

    ”I do remember reports of little schoolchildren being harmed early in the morning due to the darkness.”

    You know, schools in this country are all run locally by local school districts. If you don’t like the time school starts, start school one hour later. There’s no reason it needs to be a federal issue.

  22. I think it would be a terrible idea. I was in high school during Nixon’s experiment starting the first week after New Year’s 1974. Hated it and so did a preponderance of Americans.

    A perusal of a time zone map reveals that countries do all kinds of weird things with time zones, China being all on one time zone is the most extreme example. Much of western Europe is essentially on DST in the winter and double DST the rest of the year. Relatively few places have their local time closely aligned with solar noon.

    The clock change never seemed like a big deal to me. After all people fly over multiple time zones, get over the jet lag and are fine. And driving from one zone to another for that hour difference has got to be pretty common. It’s imperfect but the best solution for middle latitudes, not making winter sunrises super late (and they’re late enough already in western portions of time zones) and shifting an hour of daylight that would otherwise be wasted in the early morning to the evening during the period of longer and warmer days where it can be enjoyed.

    PS: I love early-midsummer where for a long stretch of time we have sunset at 8:30-35. 7:30-7:35 would not have the same hit.

  23. Kate’s 2 sentences in her 7:56pm comment mirror my opinion.

    Also, Arizona, Hawaii, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico and the U.S. Virgin Islands do not currently observe Daylight Saving Time.

    Most countries in Asia and Africa do not do it and there has been a growing trend towards nations eliminating changing the time twice a year; Azerbaijan, Iran, Jordan, Russia, Samoa, Syria, Turkey, Uruguay and most of Mexico. Spain is pushing for all EU nations to halt the practice. Surveys show a majority of EU citizens support the resolution and there is a bill actively progressing through Poland’s legislature to end the practice.

    Regardless if the U.S. passes this now (and I truly hope they do), I think the trend is toward it being gone in most countries, soon.

    The last time neo wrote about this I wrote a rather lengthy comment detailing the silliness of it all. On the summer solstice the sun rises in Miami about 1 hour 20 minutes later than in Seattle, so it’s not just east and west that matter. Time is a local concern and what time school begins and businesses open are free to vary locally. Children under the age of 16 should not be waiting for school buses in the dark anywhere. School districts with short winter days should delay the start of school in winter, and, I very much like neo’s idea of a 9am start for school.

  24. Great parody of RLS, neo! I don’t recall knowing of that poem, and I find it odd that people would have gone to bed with the sun still up in his time.

  25. neo @ 9:08pm, I seem to be the rara avis who is comfortable with either.

    For the early decades of our marriage my wife was a night owl, so I adapted to that to have time with her, especially when we had young children in the house. Those hours after they were in bed were precious. But I’ve always also been able to be bright eyed and bushy tailed at the crack of dawn. Although late night is often very fun, I slightly prefer the unique feeling of the hours between 5-5:30 and 8:30-9. I find I am almost super productive and focused in those hours.

    Whether I was staying up late, or getting up early, I’ve almost always been a 7-ish hour sleeper. Up until 2, I’ll sleep ’til 9. In bed at 10, I’ll be up at 5. Most everyone I know, however, is like you and my wife, with a definite preference of either early bird or night owl.

  27. I’m retired and used to get up with morning light.

    Now, I am leaning towards sleeping in, taking a cat nap during the day, and then staying up later. However, I tend to sleep 3-4 hours and then I am awake, so I get up, read, have something to drink, and go back to sleep.

    I’ve read that the two sleep periods at night was common in the olden times.

  28. Marisa,

    I agree with your point about latitudes, but what does it matter what the numbers on a clock are? There’s a reason Miami has a different culture than Seattle, and sunlight is a big part of it. If shops in Seattle are open from 10am – 4pm in Winter that would probably be just fine. In my bachelor days in Chicago most Fridays and Saturdays my friends and I hadn’t even left for the bars or clubs until 10pm, then I moved to Dallas where weekend activities were winding down by that time. Many Mediteranean and equatorial regions stop doing business for a few hours in the middle of the day.

    Local customs do not have to have any bearing on what the numbers on a clock state, or what is happening in a different latitude.

  29. om,

    I can’t return the sentiment because I haven’t missed you all since I never stopped coming here and reading your comments! And, as long as neo keeps this up I’ll likely continue.

    I’ve been very busy, and, frankly, you all typically have more interesting things to say than I do. And you say them better!

    Whether I’m commenting, or not, know that I’m always here enjoying your company.

  30. Thanks to Daylight Saving Time, we can all enjoy the benefits of jet lag twice a year, without the expense of traveling.

    They say that I lose an hour in the spring and get it back in the fall, but that doesn’t account for the time I spend trudging around the house and up and down stairs to reset all of our 15 or 16 clocks, except for a couple of newfangled ones that reset themselves.

    Maybe we should have Metric Time. Divide the year into 100 metric days, and divide each day into 10 metric hours. That way clock time will have no relation to the sun, so we can do away with time zones.

  31. Liz, yes, second sleep. It was very common. Seemed to be human nature until artificial lighting. I occasionally find myself doing it now.

    I read of an anthropologist who was asking questions about this and found there was not much research on it, so she went out in the field with several nomadic tribes who still live with no artificial light. She found people mostly slept during the dark hours, but most all were often restless with periods of waking and napping. They did not simply sleep for a 6 or 8 hour stretch.

  32. Liz,

    Google Gemini AI:
    Natural Sleep Patterns Without Artificial Light
    Biphasic Sleep Pattern
    In the absence of artificial light, humans typically follow a biphasic sleep pattern. This means they sleep in two segments with a period of wakefulness in between.

    Historical Context
    Historically, this pattern was common across various cultures. People would:

    Go to bed shortly after sunset.
    Wake up for a period of time in the middle of the night.
    Return to sleep until dawn.
    Activities During Wakefulness
    During the wakeful period, individuals often engaged in various activities, such as:

    Praying or contemplating dreams.
    Attending to household chores or livestock.
    Socializing quietly with family or neighbors.
    This natural rhythm allowed for a more flexible perception of time during the night, making long winter evenings feel less continuous.

    Impact of Modern Lighting
    The introduction of artificial lighting has significantly altered these natural sleep patterns, leading to a preference for continuous sleep. However, the biphasic pattern remains a reflection of how humans have historically adapted to their environment.

  33. Retired now, so it really doesn’t impact me; however, while I was working it never bothered me to change time twice a year.

    As others have said, I remember when they tried the time change in the middle of winter – that really was horrible with everyone getting up in the dark, preparing breakfast with it dark outside, walking to the bus stop and waiting for the bus in what was as dark as midnight. It was really bad as, if I remember correctly, it was suppose to save energy. Ha! turning all the lights on the early morning hours did NOT save that much energy.

    I was in high school at the time they tried that so it wasn’t too much of a problem as it was for the younger kids.

    And, while it is true that kids might benefit from a later start in the morning just how would parents get their young kids off to school if the parents have to be at work before the kids leave for school? Would it end up with a “before school” daycare. I don’t see that helping.

  34. I often do the 2-phase sleep thing. But I start the first phase much later than most people.

  36. Rufus T. Firefly:

    Glad to see you posting.

    Stevenson’s poem is written from the viewpoint of a child although he wasn’t a child when he wrote it. But it’s written for children, as though a child is speaking. Children were probably put to bed early, much like many children today, perhaps around 7 PM or 7:30 PM. And in Edinburgh, Scotland, where Stevenson grew up, the sun sets around 10 PM in the long days of summer. I am fairly certain he and the other kids were going to bed long before the sun set.

    I read the poem when I was a child, and it really spoke to me.

    And by the way, my most productive and alert hours are the wee hours of the morning. That’s not the only time I work, of course, but it’s a nice peaceful time for concentration.

  37. For several years in the 1970s my high school was so horrendously crowded (my class was over 800) that it implemented a trimester system with 90-minute classes and a split schedule: we could elect 8:00 to 2:30 or 9:30 to 4:00. I was deliriously happy with the latter.

  38. Rufus T. Firefly:

    It’s certainly not just east and west that matter. It’s how far east and west a place is within its time zone, plus the all-important north/south of latitude. The closer to the equator the less variation with the seasons, and therefore Miami (25.76 N) is much closer to the equator than Seattle (47.6 N), which means that in Miami people will not experience the same variations of sunrise/sunset between winter and summer as a northern city like Seattle does. In winter, Seattle’s sunrise will be later and its sunset will be earlier than Miami’s. In summer, Miami’s sunrise will be later and its sunset will be earlier than Seattle’s, and the day will be shorter. What’s more, Miami and Seattle are in different parts of their respective time zones.

    Another example – the northeast part of Maine is so far east in its time zone that it really should be in the Atlantic Time Zone. If it was, the sun wouldn’t set quite as early as it does (before 4 PM). But it keeps the same time zone as the rest of the Eastern US in order to be consistent.

  39. neo @11:15pm,

    Agreed. This is why I think a national policy is foolish. A state like California could likely even have different ranges within the state as the north is nearly parallel with Boston and the southernmost point nearly parallel with Jacksonville, Florida.

    We shouldn’t move clock hands twice a year. Just change operating hours where desired. Start school later in the morning in winter in the north.

  40. Regarding east and west. It takes the Earth roughly 24 hours to rotate fully on its axis and a circle has 360 degrees. 360 divided by 24 means you want to advance the clock 1 hour roughly ever 15 degrees. But if you look at a global map of time zones you’ll see a lot of jagged lines due to the location of population centers, lakes, mountains…

    I understand Maine wanting to have 1 time zone, but folks in that northeast part should adjust their schedules accordingly. School can start earlier in that region. Stores and restaurants can closer earlier. It’s the sun that matters, not what a clock reads.

  41. Rufus, I didn’t say anything about latitude, only that the time shift makes sense in middle latitudes. Conversely, it doesn’t make sense in tropical or polar latitudes.

  42. Just start school or work later is a non-starter.

    Nothing like living in PDT Seattle and having to support an 8:00am EDT meeting with Philadelphia when my project manager was in CDT St. Louis and my security guy was in MST Mesa.

  43. Marisa,

    Sorry for the misunderstanding. I guess we agree. Not a federal issue. Keep it local. I think some municipalities still have “blue” laws concerning operating hours on the sabbath and what can be bought and sold. I’m fine with that and it’s similar to this. If folks in an area don’t want liquor stores to open until after noon that’s OK, and if they don’t want school to start until a certain time, that’s fine also. There are a few school districts that do year round school.

  44. Possibly the northern New England states could agree together on staying on standard time. I agree it could be messy if NH and VT, for example, differ. Arizona has been on standard time always for a long time, but the state is geographically large so it doesn’t make much trouble.

    It’s light until about 9 p.m. on summer time here in western NC, and we’ve been enjoying that!

  45. Your answer matters … on your latitude.

    Yup. My family lived in the UK for five years 1978-83. Not many Americans realize how far north the British Isles are. Same latitude as Hudson Bay.

    During the winter months it was dark when we went to school and dark about when we came home. London in December gets less than eight hours of daylight.

    And of course the summer months are the opposite. Less than eight hours of darkness. When we went to bed it was light outside. Not quite Insomnia (1997 or 2002) but getting there.

    I am from the northeast but have lived in Louisiana since 1999. My mom lives in Upstate New York and we are sometimes surprised how long the days are when we visit in July.

  46. Sorry, it is a federal issue due to interstate commerce. Get over it. It was stupid enough to have to keep track of Mesa time separately. See above comment. Make it standard or eliminate it. Local choice idiotic.

    Copilot
    U.S. Time Zones and the Role of Railroads
    The United States’ current time zone system was born out of the need for standardized timekeeping to coordinate long-distance travel, especially by rail.

    Origins in the Railroad Industry

    In the mid?19th century, time was a local matter — each city set its clocks by solar noon. By the 1880s, there were over 300 local time zones in North America, causing confusion for passengers and freight. Railroads, which had built thousands of miles of track by 1865, needed a uniform system to schedule trains across vast distances.

    On November 18, 1883, U.S. and Canadian railroads adopted a four?zone system — Eastern, Central, Mountain, and Pacific — each one hour apart History. This was proposed earlier by Charles F. Dowd, a Yale?educated school principal, and was driven by the practical needs of train operations. The goal was to eliminate conflicting “sun times” and make timetables consistent.

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