The leaked Trump audio recording
By now you’ve probably read about the leaked audio from 2021 in which Trump discusses some documents he has that are supposedly classifed. Here’s a sampler of varied opinions: this from Andrea Widburg, this from William Jacobson, and this at RedState.
And here are my own questions and observations:
Was the audio edited in any relevant or misleading way, or not?
Who leaked it, and will there ever be repercussions for that? That last part is a rhetorical question, because I strongly believe the answer is ‘no.”
What is the meaning of the auido? I’m pretty sure that those who leaked it want you to think it’s some sort of smoking gun against Trump. And William Jacobson, whose opinion I respect, thinks the audio indicates that Trump was lying in his statements about the documents during his recent Bret Baier interview. I somewhat disagree; this may be the case, but I think there are possible explanations that don’t involve lying. An audio can’t indicate what a certain paper says unless it’s read or specifically described, as in “This paper I’m holding in my hand is classified and contains….”, nor can an audio show what was done with that paper unless you have people saying something like, “Wow! Now that I’m reading this paper on [whatever], I see that it indicates….” Nothing of that sort seems to be on the audio, although prosecutors certainly can claim it proves the document was classified and shown to others.
But I also think that, even if there are such benign explanations (for example, the paper or papers in question weren’t classified after all; Trump actually showed them to no one in a way that they could be read), those things may not matter in the court of law – or in the court of public opinion, which is the court to which the leakers are playing at the moment.
The reason they’re doing all of this – the leaks and the indictment – is twofold:
(1) To distract from Biden’s corruption and cognitive decline.
(2) To elevate Trump in the primaries by causing a backlash on the right that leads to his nomination, and to taint him further in the general.
And I believe that it’s highly possible that voters on the right will fall into that trap, although I hope they won’t.
I also will reiterate that I think Trump has shown poor judgment since he had COVID in October of 2020. I’m not sure what that’s about, but I’ve noticed it and noticed it.
Even without the Trump name, as a juror I wouldn’t take this waving of papers audio as conclusive evidence, as you indicate, Neo. I would especially discount it for a defendant like Trump with a history or braggadocio. He needs a good defense lawyer, but may be prevented from getting one.
I agree about his lack of good judgment.
What Kate said.
Apart from any nefarious schemes to keep Trump from engaging good lawyers, Trump has shown over the years that he is a terrible client, incapable of following instructions that run counter to his “gut” and always willing to go his own way and heedless of his advisers.
There is one exception. Trump’s team (Ty Cobb and John M. Dowd in particular) ran circles around Mueller’s team in the Russia investigation. They realized that Trump could not restrain himself in an interview with Mueller, so they flooded Mueller with everything he sought to make any interview unnecessary. When Mueller asked for an interview with Trump, they asked what he wanted to know that had not been provided. They basically left nothing to be discussed. Mueller never did interview Trump, which we now know would have been extremely dangerous. It was a process crime waiting to happen. But this only was possible because Trump was not hiding anything. The Russian collusion allegations were lies.
Trump certainly has lost his composure since election day 2020. His judgment has been extremely poor, and he has created his own problems.
His judgement has been good in some things and poor on others for a long time. Comes down to Do you like his good judgements more than his bad judgements? He’s gonna be the choice unless DeSantis ramps up a lot. If it’s Trump or Obama how do you jump?
(1) To distract from Biden’s corruption and cognitive decline.
That is a huge factor IMO. Misdirection, I’d call it.
But can you “photoshop” a recording?
(Yep…using that newfangled tech stuff…well, from 2017)…
“This New Tech Can Copy Anyone’s Voice Using Just a Minute of Audio;
“All audio evidence may now be inadmissible.”—
https://futurism.com/this-new-tech-can-copy-anyones-voice-using-just-a-minute-of-audio
(There’s also splice ‘n dice….but who needs that anymore now that the new kid on the block’s arrived….)
Jus’ sayin’…
(Course the Democrats are honest folks and wouldn’t never thinka’ doin’ somethin’ dirty like that…On the other hand, puttin’ DJT in jail—or at least hog-tyin’ him and stuffin’ his mouth with an apple—IS the moral imperative of our time…so YMMV…)
File under: Democratic Party DELIVERANCE…
Interesting thought–Obama (I assume you mean Michelle). Could she win? The Oprah crowd would be gaga. My belief is that she likes her present life too much to be sucked back into politics, which she never seemed to like or be very good at.
Having said that, Trump seems to drive many Dems and independents crazy and more importantly to drive them to the polls to vote against him. He will not be a breath of fresh air in 2024. I can’t see my wife’s friends turning out to empower the Trump revenge tour. I can see them saying good people vote for credentialed, properly thinking candidates, and we are good people and Michelle is a credentialed (Princeton! Harvard Law!) candidate who understands the struggles of society’s victims. She wouldn’t even campaign much. The 2020 election showed that the best strategy against Trump is to disappear during the campaign and let Trump be Trump. The press will do your campaign for you.
Did Trump say that the papers were STILL classified, or that they had been classified? Still all seems another kangaroo court to me.
Were details discussed? I have held documents classified because of a “boots on ground” date. That was the only thing classified. No mention of the date, no foul.
Amadeus: No I meant the Man Behind the Curtain/Puppet. He wants a 4th term.
– The prosecutors will have to present this tape in conjunction with evidence of a document taken from Mar-a-Lago (or elsewhere?) that meets his description. Without a document, I don’t think the tape does much. But since the prosecutor quoted this tape in the indictment, I would suspect that he has a document.
– The leaking of this tape is very, very curious. It would be quite bad if the prosecutor did it. I can’t imagine that the leak will be tied back to Jack Smith. I want more information. Did the authors of the Meadows biography have a copy of the tape? Did Meadows?
– In the court of public opinion, I think this is the typical Trumpian Rorschach test. It provides a clear demonstration of a misuse of classified information (assuming the prosecution can prove a corresponding document). I think Trump supporters will see it as vindication, though, because he was using the documents to “defend” himself from Milley, as legally irrelevant as that is.
– Even assuming that Trump was speaking the truth and correct that DOD had drawn up the Iran plan under Milley’s direction, does that really prove that Milley was lying about Trump wanting to invade Iran? I’m not sure the existence of a battle plan proves what Trump seems to think it does.
JackWayne, like most commenters here, I will vote for Trump if he’s the nominee.
Well, the Defense Department keeps plans to invade EVERYWHERE, just in case the US needs to do so: it has nothing to do with what anyone actually desires. It’s like when Batman compiled plans to incapacitate all other members of the Justice League: he didn’t actually want to kill Superman with kryptonite, Wonder Woman with her lasso, etc. He just wanted the plans on hand in case any other member went rogue.
Of course, the reasons the plans are kept secret are because a) the DD doesn’t want countries like Iran to know the plans and shore up the pressure points in its defense, and b) if top secret info leaks, then a lot of US spies will be in danger. You could add c) it really pisses foreign leaders off. As I recall, Batman was kicked out of the Justice League for a while, but the real world consequences for the US would be incalculable.
the same corrupt prosecutor, jack smith, serving a criminal gang, fronted by garland, who is persecuting patriots and parents, who lets terrorists and rioters go free, who presented forged evidence at the last kangaroo inquest, who have tried to destroy lives like that carter page and general flynn, but this time they got it right, this time they are playing fair, ok then
To verify the tape, the people present could be questioned. I assume they are known by Trump and his staff. Without witness testimony I think the tape itself is not conclusive evidence. It could be edited; it could be faked with AI. I’m not a lawyer. So, my opinion isn’t worth much.
Amadeus 48, I agree that one of Trump’s problems with getting competent lawyers is Trump himself. He doesn’t keep them long, and he often doesn’t follow their advice. Combine that with leftist schemes to trash the reputations of anyone who agrees to work for Trump, and the situation is very difficult.
The US military probably has plans to invade every country in the world. Presidents and the military discuss the possibility of war with different countries around the world.When John Bolton is in the administration, there was probably a lot of talk about war with Iran. I don’t think either Trump or Milley seriously planned an imminent invasion of Iran, though.
If we put Milley’s talk about Trump wanting to attack Iran with his talk about Trump wanting war with China and Milley’s informing China that he was prepared to subvert Trump’s supposed plan, the conclusion I’d draw is that Milley is probably either dishonest, or stupid, or both.
Some lawyer on MSNBC just said Trump is toast.
The tape was leaked to poison the jury pool.
Several points: Trump runs his mouth. He speaks in exaggerations and uses terms incorrectly. “classified” might mean, to Trump, at that moment, is idea that somebody doesn’t want it known, not that there’s anything official.
Did he actually SHOW the details, or wave papers showing they exist.
As has been mentioned above, the DoD is full of plans for, as distinct from plans to; the former being details in case of need and the latter being intent.
The plans for are hugely complex, including, for example, a plan for returning two hundred troop transports to CONUS from the invasion jump. Which airfields can handle them, or how many, and appended are the plans from the airfields including how much fuel they’ll have on hand given 48 hours notice. These, by themselves, would be complex and have sub plans to be further appended.
The paper supposedly shown to Trump would be a hugely simplified–maybe three pages–digest of the actual hundreds of pages plan.
Or it could be that Milley was presenting a position paper to Trump, trying to sell him on the invasion happening pretty soon, with the proof of preparation in hand. If this is the literal case, I’d sure like to hear a heck of a lot more about it.
Trump, having been a sillyvilian his whole life, likely wouldn’t know the difference and might think the plan for was a sales job for getting started pretty darn quick.
Question for law, among others, is whether the folks attending actually saw the details, or just were told that “This paper is classified”. I’ve been custodian of classified docs in one duty station. Big notes that a doc is classified is how people know it’s classified. You’re allowed to see the “CLASSIFIED” front piece to show why you can or cannot go any further,
So, at bottom, presuming the law counts, is whether or not the attendees saw classified details. Nothing else.
And was Milley pitching invasion?
The unfair way Trump is being treated by the judicial system in comparison with other politicians almost, ALMOST swayed me to support Trump. In other words, falling for the trap neo has stated the Democrats are setting.
However, when I heard of his tweet attacking Kayleigh McEnany I decided I’m out. It was such a visceral reminder of what a complete *ss Trump can be. Kayleigh McEnany did an incredible job defending him and his policies during her tenure as his Press Secretary. She was always so well prepared and was brilliant and faithful in her post despite the almost daily lunacy Trump would force her to deal with.
And he attacks and viscerates her in public for mis-stating a poll. Inexcusable and completely typical for Trump.
1) “And William Jacobson, whose opinion I respect, thinks the audio indicates that Trump was lying in his statements about the documents during his recent Bret Baier interview. ”
WAJ actually – and surprisingly – went further than that.
This is his June 26 summary analysis: “The audio makes clear that Trump had a specific document in his hand prepared by the Defense Department that was still secret and had not been declassified by him, contrary to his denial in an Bret Baier interview that he just had a stack of news clippings.”
WAJ is getting pushback from many commentors concerning how Trump’ verbal claim is proof of what he actually had in his hand – “Trump had a specific document in his hand prepared by the Defense Department” – or in his possession.
Plus, WAJ has not explained how the tape changed his June 19 analysis of the Bret Baier interview.
a) “We don’t know the testimony of the persons present as to what they did or didn’t see. The feds have the information, and presumably will call those people as witnesses.”
b) “Whether this interview helps or hurts Trump legally remains to be seen, when we find out what else the feds have about the incident to prove what the document was.”
***
2) WAJ responded to the comment below ^^, in part by writing: “I don’t think anything happened to us. We follow the facts.”
^^ = “Professor Jacobson, what happened to you? Your site was a great champion to the wrongly accused. Zimmerman, Oberlin College and the false accusations about you. This is a piece of junk talking point BS attack on Trump and you are giving it legs. What a disappointment.”
I was surprised by that as well – WAJ’ response – and wonder why some people do not think anything has happened to them when it concerns Trump.
***
3) “And I believe that it’s highly possible that voters on the right will fall into that trap, although I hope they won’t.”
Not sure how sticking up for the persecuted and repeatedly wrongly accused is the same as falling into a trap. It strikes me as the right thing to do – regardless if someone is a right voter, left voter, etc. – because we are all USA citizens.
that guy:
Please pay attention to what I was referring to when I wrote “that trap.” I was NOT talking about “sticking up” for Trump. I have been very fair to Trump, and have “stuck up” for him vis a vis this entire classified document brouhaha. But “sticking up” for him is not equal to “jumping off a cliff with him.”
The context for my phrase “that trap” was the following – that the left’s goal is to accomplish this:
Therefore, the “trap” is to nominate a much-weakened Trump who cannot win the general election.
“To elevate Trump in the primaries by causing a backlash on the right that leads to his nomination, and to taint him further in the general.”
1) Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. There is a concerted effort to keep Trump from being the nominee because those opposed to him do not want him to be the nominee.
2) Every candidate running for the Republican nomination – including DeSantis – has trailed Trump once they announced their candidacy. And trailed Trump before the many alleged attempts to sway primary voters.
3) 100% believe that once the primaries & debates start the contrast between DeSantis and the other candidates – not just Trump – will not work in DeSantis’ favor. (see what has happened since RD announced).
Note: was preparing this comment before I read Neo’ recent comment to me – which is appreciated and inline with why I wrote this comment – also, it does not change my comment, especially the point about ‘Sometimes…
Neo: :” I think Trump has shown poor judgment since he had COVID in October of 2020.”
Seriously? That guy looked quite flawed in the judgment department for me well before I was stuck voting for him the fist time. Can we stop being forced into voting for him again please? You’re going to get us Kamala Harris for president.
“To distract from Biden’s corruption and cognitive decline.”
100% agree. Both “twofold” and to distract.
harry Mallory:
Are you reading-comprehension-challenged? I am arguing here against voting for Trump in the primary, and have been saying that for quite some time.
Also, his poor judgment was not much in evidence when he was president. He did quite well for the most part during that time. But starting in October 2020, that seems to have intermittently deserted him and I’ve noticed a distinct decline in judgment.
FYI
https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2023/06/27/cbs-report-mysterious-dod-iran-attack-memo-does-not-exist-and-is-not-part-of-jack-smith-case-against-trump/
Re: Trump today
I find myself ambivalent about Trump’s recent address:
__________________________________________
The former president and evangelicals were instead engaged together in what he likened to a “righteous crusade” against “atheists, globalists, and the Marxists.” In a nearly 90-minute speech, Trump alleged that Democrats were not just “trying to take away” religious liberty. They were battling “God Almighty himself.”
“They are waging war,” he said of that cosmic battle. “It’s not a war they are going to win.” And for his part, Trump promised, if returned to the White House, to “restore our nation under God.”
–“Holy War: Trump Asks, ‘How Can Christians Vote for Democrats?’”
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2023/06/25/holy_war_trump_asks_how_can_christians_vote_for_democrats__149400.html
__________________________________________
I understand how Trump might say that and how some Christians might enthusiastically respond. But I don’t see how this appeals to swing voters and meanwhile it reinforces the leftist trope that Trump is a crazed right-wing religious fanatic.
@ Bauxite > ” Without a document, I don’t think the tape does much. But since the prosecutor quoted this tape in the indictment, I would suspect that he has a document.”
Maybe.
https://redstate.com/bobhoge/2023/06/27/report-iran-memo-discussed-in-leaked-trump-audio-not-part-of-classified-documents-charges-n768336
Neo, when I said “we” and “you’re” I was speaking collectively. Trumps numbers are probably double that of DeSantis. This is insane. We’re going to loose.
What this is a paper submitted by General Milley. It was a supposed plan to Invade Iran. It was not a war plan as those are large tomes hundreds of pages long. I believe it was used to set up Trump. Milley is a evil bastard who should be court martialed
General rule of thumb:
1. Whatever the Left is pushing is a lie.
2. The more they push it the greater the lie.
YMMV.
(I suppose there’s always going to be problem WRT proof required to defend such a rule of thumb….of course one might certainly be able to meet the Democratic Party’s “Burden of Proof”, champions that they are of proving contentions…e.g., RussiaGate, HunterGate, ChinaGate, UkraineGate, Stopping-the-Ballot-Counting-for-Several-Hours-in-Several-StatesGate, Decades-of-Bidens-Classified-DocsGate, TransitoryInflationGate, Antifa’s-a-MythGate, Obama’s-Scandal-FreeGate, MichaelFlynnGate, etc.Gate…)
Harry Mallory, for one thing, I don’t trust polls much any more. With that caveat, I have seen polls showing DeSantis beating Biden in the key swing states we need to win, and Biden beating Trump in those same states. National preference polls aren’t very useful since we elect presidents state by state. And then, it may not be Biden, if the Dems dump him for Newsom, and that’s a different ball game.
https://twitchy.com/aaronwalker/2023/06/27/tucker-on-twitter-episode-7-n2384888
has trump made mistakes, I’ll be the first to admit that he has, do we deny there is a criminal regime, that barr was an accessory to, that still tries to kill him, the implication of each of the charges,
do we further doubt this regime would not go as far to fabricate a ‘torture charge’ against desantis, or some other bafflegrab, the charges against bob mcdonnell, who was jack smith’s target were nearly as nebulous,
“Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, the defendant is a habitual liar. Pay no attention to this tape in which he admits to the elements of the crime. Of course, he was just lying then too.”
I’m not sure that is such a great argument in front of a jury. (It may be the only argument Trump has, so he may have to give it a go.)
What blows my mind is that some Trumpers think that argument is going to work with the voting public:
“Trump was railroaded! Pay no attention to the tape in which he says that he is waving highly classified battle plans in front of reporters who don’t have clearances. Trump lies all the time. He was just lying then too. They didn’t even find that particular document at Mar-a-Lago with the stash of other classified documents that Trump was hoarding.”
Lord knows that our presidents have lied to us repeatedly over the past few decades (at least), but, in the political arena, do you really think that Trump will be able to use his propensity to lie to overcome the incriminating tape that he allowed to be made? Do you really think that swing voters are going to go for that? Try this one:
“We have to get rid of Biden. He’s a corrupt liar. He lies to us about his governing priorities. He props up and empowers lying, scheming bureaucrats like Fauci. He lies through his teeth about his corrupt deals with Chinese communists and corrupt Ukranians. So we have to bring back Trump. Oh, and just ignore the tape where Trump admits to a crime involving incredibly reckless handling of sensitive documents, you know that Trump lies all the time.”
The absolute insanity of these arguments allows me to keep some glimmer of hope that the GOP electorate will come to their senses and nominate pretty much anyone other than Trump next year.
one doubts that, iran is twice as populous as iraq, we’d probably need half a million troops, where nuclear reactors are located, that shouldn’t be a state secret, except for the fact that we are enabling their upgrade, through sanctions relief,
A different way of saying more or less the same thing:
(1) Trump is being unfairly targeted by the DOJ and local prosecutors and the GOP should speak out against this abusive behavior and work to not only end it, but prevent it from happening again.
(2) Trump should be the 2024 GOP nominee.
It is possible to believe (1) and not (2). (2) does not follow from (1). If it did, then they would have just cancelled the 2008 primaries and handed the GOP nomination to Scooter Libby by acclamation. (Scooter Libby never even allowed himself to be captured on tape admitting to the elements of the crime!)
well we gonna go back there, the whole plame matter, involved similar subterfuge, except one leaker richard armitage was never charged much less prosecuted, he is currently the lead lobbyist for erdogan by the way, whereas judith miller was put in jail even though they already knew who the leaker was,
bob mcdonnell was not guilty, but mcauliffe certainly is, he was allowed to become governor despite his deals with mayorkas, and the chinese, he enabled the disaster of charlottesville through malfeasance, he maximized the death toll during the pandemic, do I need to go further,
Related:
Hey, remember firebrand Stacey Plaskett?
(Actually, she’s hard to forget…)
Wellll, the Honorable Representative of Righteous Indignation from the Virgin Islands appears to have a pretty solid connection to Jeffrey Epstein (though it’s something SHE appears to have totally forgotten about)…
…Strange how these things seem to happen…
https://twitter.com/lhfang/status/1673735455395958784
https://twitter.com/themarketswork/status/1673747874214199297
H/T Jeff Carlson Twitter feed.
Epstein who the doj assures us, did kill himself, this time for sure,
miguel cervantes – What, exactly, is your point? I’m not telling you that Trump has been treated fairly. He has not. I’m not telling you that equal justice has been applied. It has not. I’m not suggesting that Scooter Libby did anything wrong. He didn’t. I’m not telling you that any crime was even committed over the Plame/Libby affair. There wasn’t.
In fact, it looks like we agree on most everything that comes before you would say “therefore we have to nominate Trump for president in 2024.” No. No we do not. We do not have to cede the 2024 election to the Democrats by default.
those are word you are putting in my mouth, I might vote desantis, in the primary, as i did for guiliani gingrich and cruz, just realize they want for him to die in prison, while a degenerate gang of thieves just lets this country crumble that is the point,
OK I’m for President Trump in the primary and in 2024. I’m looking for a wrecking ball not a ruler.
Read today in another blog referencing Russia regarding Putin’s Wagner actions; “This is a country that jails its opponents and murders its enemies.” Sadly this is a rather apt description of present day America.
22 June NPR (The federally funded CNN) posted a list of the eleven Republican’s who’ve tossed their hats in the ring and four maybe wills. With the exception of President Trump (& possibly Vivek Ramaswamy, who few, if any, see as electable.) Those candidates will all, each and every one, go along to get along, our grating banana republic will survive and thrive.
Our country, and western civilization may have fallen to far to recover even with President Trump reelected but I se him as our only hope.
Harry Mallory:
Well, then, I’m in complete agreement. I can only hope that enough people get the picture by the time the primaries are happening and change their minds. It seems suicidal, in the metaphoric sense, to stick with Trump.
@miguel cervantes
• You clearly have a command of the facts & history – nice work.
• Strikes me that many of those who have responded to you think you are trying to make the case for wrong doing. And to be fair, they do not dispute the wrong doing.
• Have always interpreted the information you have shared as data points that can be used to determine a trend – if one exists. A trend does exist. And it strikes me that most who comment do recognize the danger to all of us – even if they do not interpret your data in that manner, or think of it as a trend.
• Have always found trends to be very useful for forecasting; which then leads to recommendations. Will concede that I cannot prove that my forecast is better than anyone else’s – see ‘jumping off cliff’, ‘suicidal’, ‘insane’ – but my experience is forecasting is undermined if it does not include all key facts & history.
• Take the concerns of “can win nomination, but not general” seriously, and have been trying to see if I can learn anything helpful from history (i.e., party lost general election because selected wrong candidate). Any thoughts or info you have on that would be appreciated – again, nice work.
first I don’t trust jack smith or his shot callers in the press, second I don’t see anything but a passing reference to something, certainly the espionage act doesn’t apply, everything the bidens the obamas and the clintons do, probably does qualify under the Act, an evil triumvirate
There’s a big problem for the Florida indictment regarding the recording – the conversation and alleged document weren’t in Florida. It was in New Jersey.
That’s problematic for a charge of mishandling documents in Floria.