One result of the Depp/Heard trial…
…may have been to drive a stake into the heart of “believe all women.” See this.
If so, good.
“Believe all women” was always absurd as well as pernicious. Believe all any group of people is absurd and pernicious.
And I refuse to get into the “who lies more, men or women?” debate. Suffice to say there are plenty of liars in each group.
“Believe all any group of people is absurd and pernicious.”
Now if only the MSM would junk the “Believe all Democrats” mantra. As for lefty liars, I’d still put Brandon in a class by himself.
Two curious points about this unseemly and sordid affair/legal circus come to mind, the first being that many conservatives have been eager to defend a man whom they believe to have been defamed (based on their belief in principle and the rule of law) when one can certainly infer (based on his hatred for Trump and Trump-supporters) that Depp would hardly be so magnanimous towards a conservative perhaps falsely accused, the second being that Elon Musk seemingly had a very normal relationship (lacking both drama and violence) with Heard, whose young child is apparently his.
j e:
Apparently the trial (which I did not watch) made her lying and his innocence of her charges very apparent even to a lot of people who believed otherwise at first.
If he’s innocent, it doesn’t matter how he might judge others. But my guess is that, after his own ordeal, he’d be inclined to demand solid evidence for such accusations towards anyone.
Her prior relationships and his are irrelevant. A certain mix of 2 people can create far more toxicity, and people change over time. Each case must be evaluated on its own merits.
“I refuse to get into the “who lies more, men or women?” debate.” neo
In the aggregate, they lie equally… just in service of different specifics. Whatever the specific goal, lies fall into three categories; seeking to spare hurt whether real or imagined, greed to obtain something undeserved and fear of resultant consequence. The first is understandable. The second reprehensible. The third, all too human.
Another result is a continuing breakdown of the gatekeeping media, but that media refuses to go down without smearing the victors: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/399412.php
“Believe all women” was always absurd as well as pernicious. Believe all any group of people is absurd and pernicious.
The key word for me here is “absurd.”
Taking a couple steps backwards away from this specific story, it seems to me that the nation’s political (in a very generalized sense) discourse has degenerated to the point where the preposterous and nonsensical arguments have as much or more traction as the intelligent and established ones. By established, I don’t mean something that some old church doctrine posits. I mean something that has been tested repeatedly through history. (Hopefully, those two are the same in many cases.)
The left loves to shout “Science” as a justification for some of things they are pushing. The obvious reason is that science generally speaking has built a huge record of accomplishment and credibility for itself. It has done this by carefully building upon itself over the centuries, step by careful step, layer upon layer.
So many of these political steps we’ve taken in recent years is nonsense after nonsense, absurdity upon absurdity.
“Son, don’t try to understand women, women understand women and they hate each other” – Al Bundy.
Men and women are equal in rights and complementary in Nature. We should acknowledge and respect the dignity and agency of both sexes: male and female, to make good and bad choices, and that there exist a medically-induced, impulsive, and pathological fringe.
This may sound offensive, but-
Believe all women, when they claim sexual crimes?
Wow.
A woman claimed that Biden did a sex crime to her, by- holding her against a wall + then touching her, without permission, in sexual ways.
Many Democrats in Congress, + many Democrat-supporting reporters, said that her story wasn’t true.
They also didn’t help her report Biden to the police, or help her try to put Joe Biden on trial, for this suspected attack.
So much for “Believing All Women”, when women report, or tell someone, that they suffered a sexual attack.
Shouldn’t we protect and help all women, and all the other people?
And that crazy women e jean carroll has not been laughed out of court, its just another tool to target as they did with roger ailes
j e : people with borderline personality disorder (Heard has been diagnosed) and narcissistic personality disorder (Heard’s undiagnosed NPD is very apparent to anyone who knows anything at all about it, or who has lived through similar) also behave very differently with people they are married to or they know must put up with them, such as blood family, subordinates in employment, children, etc. Behavior usually changes rapidly for the worse after they believe a secure “hold” of some sort has been achieved over the other party in a relationship.
Heard actually told others the same things about Musk that she said about Depp: that he was controlling, abusive, etc. So basically she said Musk victimized her in somewhat the same way Depp did. They also engaged in a legal battle over the embryos they created together and its not at all clear her child is his. Musk does not strike me as the type who would put up with much of the drama and crap from Heard that Depp did, and they were never married. So it’s doubtful she ever showed that full side of herself to Musk. Narcissists are very calculating and careful when it comes to that, especially covert types.
People who put up with the kind of manipulation, gaslighting, and abuse that Heard dished out to Depp usually have something in their background that conditions them to accept it, or even to try to help the manipulating abuser, at least for a while, even when everyone else around them can see how toxic the relationship is. Things I’ve read about Depp indicate he has some of the early life conditioning that would incline him to put up with a turd like Heard.
Do a little more research before you jump to conclusions based on your political biases, please, especially about non-political situations. Don’t be like “them”.
Isn’t this part of their job as Hollywood stars to scandalize the world with their outrageous behavior? Then the dramatic pictures appear in print, online and TMZ totally distracting us from the latest bad economic news. It’s been that way since Fatty Arbuckle in 1912.
Somebody had to take Paris Hilton’s place and I’m glad to see these two step up and volunteer.
Amy … you said all the things I was going to. Can’t add anything to it. Borderline Personality Disorder is toxic and very difficult, if not impossible, to mitigate.
Isn’t this part of their job as Hollywood stars to scandalize the world with their outrageous behavior?
No. It’s part of their job to produce performances which engage and entertain.
Then the dramatic pictures appear in print, online and TMZ totally distracting us from the latest bad economic news. It’s been that way since Fatty Arbuckle in 1912.
I think you mean 1921.
What Mr. Arbuckle actually did – get together with some buddies and rent a trio of hotel suites for a drunken weekend bash – isn’t terribly appealing (he was thirtysomething and notionally married), but the only part of it which was criminal was the black market booze. A young woman was taken ill at the party and died some days later in the hospital; she died of peritonitis from a ruptured bladder. The prosecutor attempted to blame Arbuckle for her ruptured bladder making use of hearsay from a very sketchy character who attended the party with the deceased.
Arbuckle was subject to a malicious prosecution which required three criminal trials to sort out. The prosecutor was exposed at trial as having made use of statements to police by a known blackmailer, of suborning perjury, and of bribing witnesses. There’s also a reasonable inference that forensic evidence was fabricated (something the juries could also deduce). The prosecutor was returned to office five additional times and never disbarred.
Note, Arbuckle lost a ton of money defending himself and his career was wrecked. As a performer, he’d made an average of a dozen films a year from 1909 to 1921 and was reduced to one a year the rest of his life. As a director, he’d made about 10 shorts a year during 1914-21; afterward, he was reduced to five per year and had to use an alias on the screen credits. I don’t think his employers or his public considered manufacturing scandal to be his job.
cheefib…narcissistic personality disorder is bar none the most intractable, difficult personality on the planet. They utterly lack self-awareness, or they present that way in their public face. Even when confronted with incontrovertible proof that they have done wrong, they will literally make stuff up out of air (gaslight) to show they didn’t do what you saw or heard them do, even when it happened five minutes ago, Or they will at least try to rationalize it away or make it all your fault. Or they will simply put a stop to the conversation and immediately “forget” both the transgression and the conversation. If they do seem to self own it’s often for manipulative purposes, and they will quickly drop the self-aware facade if you don’t buy back into their act. Then they try the gaslighting again about how it’ was all someone else’s fault (usually yours), or it didn’t actually happen.
Borderlines OTOH often have some shred of self awareness and a will to change, even if they are a giant PITA to be around and changing is hugely difficult for them. They have some small inkling that their misery is largely self-inflicted after a point. They often want to change. Narcissists lack the capacity for that crucial inner self-own. Or they will gaslight themselves out of it in short order.
No I’m not a shrink, I just play one on the internet. ;-p
Seriously I have a lot of personal experience with NPD and borderline, and it’s a hard pill to swallow when you realize the most significant person or people in your life will sacrifice almost anything you think or feel, and will willfully distort reality, to protect their personal demons. If you were raised with it you can have a hard time spotting it in others, or you may feel compelled to try to help others overcome it, until you make a deliberate decision not to keep falling into the trap. You also may become a type of “narcissist magnet”, as many of them are very good at zeroing in on the people who are already uniquely conditioned to put up with their crap. They know how to hook you in, at least in the beginning. It’s a tough cycle to break.
Incidentally there’s a lot of overlap in symptoms between borderline disorder and narcissistic disorder, and it can be hard even for experts to objectively prove a difference. One crucial aspect is that NPD usually doesn’t go for treatment, or if they do they take off if anyone starts getting close to the real problem. I suspect Heard would not have tolerated a diagnosis of narcissistic disorder, but stuck around for the borderline because it makes her seem more like a victim and she could use it.
At this point I just feel really really sorry for her daughter. I can’t imagine the morass of confusion that poor child is growing up in. Everything the child does will always be about her volatile attention whore mother. It’s very sad.
Amy … I had a falling out with two friends (just friends, nothing more) of long duration whom I have always accepted for who they are in spite of knowing they have diagnosed personality disorders. Which prompted me to read more to try to understand what I thought I already did.
I realize now that my expectations of them were not realistic, believing that my authentic friendship would be reciprocated. It turns out that they were essentially allowing me to be their friend, with me doing the heavy lifting.
The nature of the falling out in both cases amounted to their inability to confront and contend with their own mistakes, and an obsessive self-absorption combined with an utter lack of self-awareness, which resulted in unwarranted personal attacks on me. My feelings were not in the equation. They both seem to lack the knowledge and the skills that make for a healthy, adult relationship.
I realize I might have handled the situations better, knowing now what I didn’t then. While I come away bruised, I harbor no ill will, but will have to try to muster some emotional capital to embrace them again. I remain cautious.
LawTube comments on Amber Heard cross-examination Part 4!: https://youtu.be/xMsTNQigYd4
@sdferr it has been very interesting to watch the commentary by all the different lawyers and behavioral psychologists. I’ve learned a lot and at the least Lawtube and social media has prevented the MSM from controlling the narrative.
More than anything else as Neo has previously posted the trial seems to have been very cathartic for a lot of people watching it who have had similar experience both men and women. It may or may not have opened up the conversation but from what I have observed online it seems to have reduced the embittered feelings of the Incel’s. At least the trial has done that much.
It was never “believe all women”. It was always “Believe all women unless they accuse someone we like”.
It was always political BS. This won’t really make a difference any more than all the other previous explicit examples of it being BS. It’s a political tool, nothing more.