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Music and snobbery

The New Neo Posted on by

As part of my newish – or rather, renewed – interest in popular music, I’ve been listening to a lot of music old and new. No doubt it’s at least partly as an escape from the political dolors du jour. But it also has its own fascination for me. I find it highly entertaining and even calming to listen to my favorites from the 50s through the 80s. And this time, I prefer watching as well, if possible in videos or live performances.

When I was growing up, even though we were hardly poor, my access to music was almost laughably limited compared to today’s internet and digital age. It was mainly through the radio that I heard the songs of the day, although I could have watched a show like “American Bandstand” and if so I would have gotten more of the visuals. But I found that program boring, and for me the way I listened was to turn on the radio while I did my homework. In later years there were parties in college where hired bands would play cover versions of the current hits. Much later on, in my days as a young married woman and mother it was mostly back to the radio again, only this time in the car while doing errands.

And then at some point popular music became a miss for me much more often than a hit, and for the most part I quit listening. I find that the popular music of today leaves me almost totally cold, even that small portion of it that seems at least superficially like the music I loved in my youth. Where are the hooks I used to like so much? Why don’t I hear them? Why do the voices sound either slurred or tortured or boringly similar to each other, or all of the above? Why are the words so often meaningless or ironic or repetitive or obscene?

There are styles in music, but there’s also snobbery in musical tastes. I don’t think new music doesn’t appeal to me because I’m a musical snob; at least, I never have been one before. In fact, I’ve never cared what music other people liked or disliked, nor did I look down on anyone for their tastes. But I’ve noticed here and elsewhere that some people not only have strong opinions on music and what they like, but are also what I might call musical snobs – that is, they look down on those who like music that they consider inferior in some way.

I think there are at least two spectra on which people often judge musical tastes in this way. The first is a continuum from cool to uncool. That’s more for popular music such as rock or jazz or pop or disco or rap. The second is a continuum from lofty to populist, and it’s used more for classical music. But there is interface and the two graphs are essentially the same thing – what’s in among the cognoscenti and what’s out.

People not only have preferences – sometimes they can explain those preferences and sometimes not. And sometimes they are quite knowledgeable about music theory and technique and sometimes not. But preferences and knowledge aren’t what I’m talking about – I’m talking about disdain for those who like music that a person has decided is inferior.

I’m not just talking about the disdain some feel for my newly-beloved Bee Gees, although that of course exists. I’ve noticed that the music looked down on is often dance music, both in the pop world (disco being a prime example) and in the classical one (I’ve long noticed disdain leveled against mere ballet music). Why is that? Is dance music considered less pure in some way? Because in pop or rock I have a liking for music with a strong beat as well as harmony, and my favorite classical composers have all had works that have been used in well-known ballets (Chopin, Tchaikovsky, Bach, and Dvorak).

I’m no music expert, and although as the saying goes I know what I like, I don’t always know exactly and precisely why I like it. But in the last year or so of turmoil and angst I’ve been drawn more and more to listening to music and to thinking about it more as well, not just about what I like but about why people like what they like.

Comments

Music and snobbery — 101 Comments

  2. I would say some of the snobbery towards dance music from at least the 80s on is that it is so heavily synthesizer/computer based and less humans playing real instruments.

    Most of what would be called ‘dance music’ prior to about 1980 featured real musicians playing guitar. bass, drums but by the mid 1980s synths and drum machines had really taken over and there became a feeling that these people weren’t musicians they were computer programmers.

  3. I will admit, I do have “ disdain” for Rap, Other than that, I like a broad swath of music and can appreciated people who do. I am probably more likely to feel some level of “ disdain”, which is not the right thing to do, “… judge not…” , for people who have very narrow taste in music. Again , not the right thing to have disdain for someone over.
    One of my young , white, relatives had started listing to rap. One day, when the subject of the recent deaths from crushing at a Houston Rap show came up, I broached the subject in a very non direct way. I mentioned to the whole group of people that were there, without referencing the relative, the question of what do white and hispanic people do at a rap concert when the “ N” word comes up in the song? Do they keep singing? Do they get beat up?
    Some days later my mother mentioned that the young relative had told his mother he was listening more to Christian music again.
    Maybe my comment helped him to consider the messages he was putting into his head and potential consequences.

  4. Glenn Beck and company were talking about some rap concert where the artist invited a white female fan up on stage to sing with him. They got to the
    n” word and she kept singing. Then the rap artist berated her for it…..

  5. Neo, my taste in music has dramatically changed since I was a high schooler in the early-mid 70s. I listened to all of the “cool” people from that time and earlier, but now most of it is just too loud or discordant or raucous for me. A band like Yes, who I loved at the time (3X in concert), is grating to me now. The heavy metal, when I am unfortunately exposed to it now, just makes me run for the door. Some things, though, I still like – the Beatles, Jesse Colin Young, bits and pieces from hither and yonder. I do still like Motown (The Supremes!) and lots of 60s pop, what many of my cooler friends called fluff, but it’s what I listened to on the kitchen radio when getting ready for school in the mornings with my siblings.

    In my 20s I move into classical, and easy listening jazz like Keith Jarret, Pat Metheny, Rampal’s (sp?) flute with jazz piano. I’ve since added softer contemplative music like American Indian flute and a good bit of traditional West African (after 6 Foreign Service tours in Africa, what can I say?).

    Btw, I really like your music columns (nice break from the politics), and while I do like quite a few of the BGs melodies, it’s their voices I’ve never been able to warm to.

  6. Griffin:

    The disdain for dance music predated that phenomenon, and the disdain for ballet music most certainly did.

  7. Rap is the only “ genre” of music that REGULARLY includes lyrics that only 13% of the population is allowed to say…

  8. A certain segment of rock music fans have always been snobbish. They hated KISS(as did I in fairness), Motley Crue, Poison, Nickelback, Creed, etc. while going on extraordinarily long and tedious eye glazing over lectures on the brilliance of Rush.

    This group also likes to complain when someone like the Jackson 5, Michael Jackson or Madonna are inducted into the Rock and Roll HOF.

  9. I do not have a disdain for ballet music but I find it to be in general less emotional and dramatic, than music for opera. One notable exception is Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev.

  10. Telemachus:

    I have found that usually when people say they don’t like the Bee Gees’ voices, they are referring to their falsetto era during their relatively short disco period. But each Bee Gee has about 6 different voices at their command, with falsetto only a small part. Are you familiar with their 60s stuff, like NY Mining Disaster or To Love Somebody? They have tons of later stuff, too, in normal voices, like for example You Win Again. I prefer their normal voices to their falsettos, for the most part.

  11. This site has top 40 hits from every year, as well as country,r&b, one hit wonders, and more. Check it out for songs you have forgotten but were popular when you were a kid . Kinda fun.

    But beware, those songs you hated back then liable to get stuck in your head for a day or so…

    https://playback.fm/charts

  13. I had no idea there was a disdain amongst some classical aficionados for ballet music.

    There’s definitely one amongst jazz purists and jazz fusion.

  14. But are comic books literature, and which are serious? Taking the discussion of music off the rails and into the weeds ….. A graphic novel, Maus, for instance.

  15. Neo, you made a comment earlier this year that you hadn’t even heard of Billie Eilish – I had, and have heard more from her. Althouse has a nice YT of a recent anti-porn song, and she apparently has come out against porn, which is causing some pro-porn folk to be against her.
    https://althouse.blogspot.com/2021/12/billie-eilish-began-watching-porn-aged.html

    There’s a really really cute “reaction video” style of Billie giving the “same interview”, as she sees clips of herself in 2017, 18, 19, 20, and now 21 (she’s 20).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wNsZEqpKUA

    A couple months ago I saw, at a Slovak bookshop (in their English section), a book by Billie – lots of pictures and fluff. Thought of mentioning it here, but then forgot since I’m doing more watching of others (Fantasy Intellectuals) so less to comment. Next time I went there, the book was gone/ sold. Recently read that she has millions of followers (and her interview show numbers), but the book sold quite poorly – followers doesn’t yet mean certain book sales.

    My favorite song time is exactly those danceable 80s synth pop, and I was listening to “alternative” rock, as college radio. (KFJC, 89.7, 12345 Los Altos Hills [Silicon Valley, Foothill Junior College] Now YT offers me similar playlists:
    https://music.youtube.com/watch?v=eRQ3irjdpDw&list=RDAMPLRDTMAK5uy_mVNeBBFwty5UdrYVbVfr9rb8E2KJYKkFE
    (Not sure if others can see these)

    Tho I often prefer mostly blues guitars & piano (jazzy, easy listening) while I’m busy blog reading, and some commenting.

    I’m going to repost this comment at Althouse, as many of those readers might be interested, and it occurs to me that Twitter is quite a bit like Multi-Player commenting. Your comment to one could be seen by all others, and the algorithms might well push it to be seen by those most likely to be interested in it.
    Blogs can’t do that.

  16. In recent years I’ve been listening to music which was around when I was younger but was too obscure for me to have heard (because back then all we had was radio and MTV).

    This blog’s audience appears to skew rather older than I do, but whatever era you grew up in, see what you can find from that time that didn’t get much airplay….

  17. Frederick,

    The 1980s were my teen years and the 1990s my twenties so that is the music that I have personal connection to and I find myself not snobbish at all about it. I liked U2 but hey ‘Dr. Feelgood’ was pretty cool too and I think the 1980s had some of the best quality wise one hit wonders like this

    ‘Welcome To The Boomtown’ David & David

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97wvwuHUMCw

    and this ‘Mary’s Prayer’ Danny Wilson

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hqgC3W9GUI

  18. Music and Ballet

    Possibly the hardest hit of all creative venues here in Eugene OR, is/was the Eugene Ballet and the Orchestra that plays with them. The Covid pandemic stopped Eugene Ballet cold and all the Youth Ballet companies as well. Just prior to the pandemic, Eugene Ballet performed both Swan Lake and R&J with a full orchestra during the 2019 season – needless to say the Opera Hall was packed… The music and dance were just wonderful … They are trying to start up again, and hopefully the new year will see a resurgence! I am, however, totally bias in my love of this art-form…. got to see my grand-daughter perform on the main stage – what a treat for an old rocker – so my hint to all: follow Neo’s advice, and get down to see, hear, and support the ballet in your town.

  20. I have very broad but not very deep knowledge of music. I have found that snobbery is more true of music listeners than musicians themselves. Musicians quite often like everything.

    I find snobbery horrible. I remember Andrew Klavan complaining about the Beatles and getting really annoyed about it. Keep in mind, I one of those who think the fab four are seriously overrated. Klavan liked to talk about his “sophistication” and imply others were not. Weirdly, Klavan doesn’t like classical music. If one is going to be a music snob; one at least should be a snob about classical music pieces which have lasted centuries.

    The thing about snobbery is that it mostly hurts the snob. They don’t ever learn or experience anything new. They stay in their comfort zone.

  21. Griffin-

    Welcome to the Boomtown is one of my all time favorites. It is such a simple song but to me unforgettable. But it also represents a type of music that is hard to find anymore.

  22. Neo-

    One of the problems I have seen, but best explained by Rick Beato. Is how little range there are in current music. Everything is so tightly controlled for pitch, beat and mistake. It creates a somewhat backward evolution in that songs have become more the same. As the ways to access them have grown.

    If you watch his video on Adele- Easy on me. It demonstrates why she is both so popular. And the limiting factors we see on most other popular music. You should not need to be so singularly talented to be able to create memorable music.

    And while I do not appreciate all types of music. I can appreciate that much of what was created from the late 50’s to late 90’s. Took serious craftsmanship to create. And often long hours of practice. The shortcuts technology allows now mean that most “musicians” now simply remix older songs. Add in repetitive hooks and beats. With greatly simplified vocals.

    Beato also explains, and I agree. That the financial aspects are pushing to this type of music. As the money to be made has eroded. The less people, and practice time you put in. The greater the profit.

  24. Let’s make a distinction between Snobbery and Discrimination here.

    Without Discrimination (yeah!) in tastes, preferences and *association* there is no Civilization and nothing transcendent.

    I’d even put in a good word for Plain Old Snobbery. Snobbery is like Religion. You might not need Religion if you’re Thomas Jefferson in your library, but you sure as #%^& hope that your dentist and banker and slaves out back have it. Snobbery arranged rightly, along with Religion and a bunch of miscellaneous folkways and traditions helps to keep the Common Man within the bounds of approximately decent behaviour.

    If you wish to see the result of a culture which abhors snobbery and elevates ‘= tolerance’ and anathematises discrimination.. well… Stand up and rotate yourself 360 degrees with your eyes open.

    Furthermore Rap / Hip Hop are animalistic and plumb the depths of criminal violence and sexual degeneracy. You all, every one of you know it. It doesn’t take a brain the size of a planet to draw some important conclusions from this – unless one has been Carefully Taught to avoid CrimeThink. Now how’s that for Discrimination? 😀

  25. Ted Fitch,

    I recorded that Anne Murray doc last night (we get CBC in WA state) and watched it this morning. She was the kind of music we listened to on vacations when I was kid so I’ve always had a soft spot for her.

    And music snobs (especially country music snobs) hated her.

  26. I think there’s also just Disinterest. There’s vast swathes of popular culture I simply have zero interest in: too much gratuitous violence, too much aimed at female sensibilities… I’ve no doubt that some people consider graphic novels and anime to be Art — Ask an East Asian or an Om. That’s a lot of people. But, after cursory toe-dipping, sorry not not sorry not interested.

    Now in some cases, the line between Disinterest and Snobbery might be blurred. And I don’t subscribe to the current insane ideology that one should hide one’s disdain under a bushel… as stated above just look where Tolerance and Open-Mindedness has gotten us all. But still, it’s possible to be simply Just Not Interested in vast swathes of what gets other people excited. And that’s OK.

  27. I don’t think I’m a snob about music, but I am one of those “I know what I like” people. I don’t listen to much modern pop, but what I do hear all sounds the same, noisy and unmemorable. Possibly some of you will say I need to listen more; at this point, I’m not likely to. Enjoy. I admit it was disco and the falsettos that probably made me turn the radio off and leave it off. Again, that’s just me.

    I don’t look down on people for different tastes, but I do worry about followers of rap and hip hop. The sound is angry and ugly to me, and far worse, what I can understand of the lyrics is angry and ugly as well. Listening all day to that heavy pounding beat and hateful words just has to have a bad effect on people.

  28. @Griffin:

    Country Music seems to have gone woke in recent years. But there’s nothing like the the good old stuff to drive Coastal Cloud People nuts. Love it.

    More generally as an addendum to my unkind words about Rap which I hereby double down on… the unadulterated Blues — whether Delta or Chicago can be pretty filthy… but unlike Rap / Hip Hop they’re enjoyable and even have some didactic value — e.g. straying off the straight and narrow in Memphis will get one a year and a day. Stomping on a gentleman’s hayed will do the trick. The Blues also contains much useful advice on the care and maintenance of females. A well-rounded education.

  29. @Griffin: Try Mother Love Bone if you haven’t. There wasn’t time for them to do much more than Apple (drug overdose).

    You’ve heard of the band the survivors joined but I don’t mention them or you might get the wrong idea about the sound. I’m a little younger than you and my tastes were formed about 5 years later.

  31. Zaphod:

    Maus is the only graphic “novel” I’ve ever read. It’s about those people who did something to the Jews, a survivor and his son. Spare me any stories from your anime affliction.

    As regards music,

    “Poor, poor, pitiful Z.”

  32. My approach is that any art with a large audience is doing something and it’s probably worth looking into to understand the appeal for others. I may still not like it, but then again I might.

    I enjoy learning to like things I didn’t like before.

  33. After I introduced a friend to my favorite Dylan songs and explained why, he was impressed and moderated his dislike for Dylan.

    Partly he didn’t care for Dylan’s voice (understandable) and partly he hated the snobby way Dylan fans often were about Dylan. (Very understandable.)

  35. I was a major music snob when I was younger, highly favoring jazz along with rock music that had complexity. I disdained pop and rock music that I felt was too simplistic and sentimental. Over time I softened and have come to appreciate a wider range. Tom Petty is one artist I grew to appreciate later in life.

    However, the Bee Gees still don’t turn me on, disco or otherwise. Sorry, Neo.

    “I was so much older then, I’m younger than that now.” – Robert Zimmerman

  36. Waal, one of our shirt tails recently challenges his friends to name a group whose ’10 best albums’ are better than REM’s “10 best albums”. Do people do this? Listen to scores of record albums and then make comparative assessments? Well, no, of course they do not. Except in the hands of someone who knows how music or art is produced and who has some understanding of aesthetics and cultural history, discussion of the arts which purports to be an informed critique is self-aggrandizing twaddle. (The shirt tail in question is a tiresome bull$hitter on all topics, btw).

    Some time ago, the late Roger Ebert offered that comparative evaluations of films have to be undertaken within and not between genres and that attempting to do otherwise would be talking gibberish to his readers. I have a suspicion this is true of just about anything produced in the realm of the arts – creative writing, studio art, music, theatre, dance, film & photography, and, in more practical realms, crafts and architecture. The question at hand is how one defines the genres and how one stratifies them.

    In regard to music, somethings are sufficiently hideous that they’re indicative of cultural disorder, and cultural improvement would be manifest in people losing interest in them. That would include rap and heavy metal but would also include strange and discordant material produced in the last century for chamber players and orchestras.

    One thing you might want to listen to unpleasant material to do is to stoke your imagination and try to make sense of what its audience was hearing or seeing that appealed to them. My grandmother was not someone who invested much attention in music, but she was fond of operetta and crooners (Bing Crosby and Perry Como in particular). These weren’t tastes picked up in her youth. She was at the but end of her young adult years (and a mother of three) when sound films of operetta hit the town; ditto at the time of Crosby’s break out years. She was in middle age ‘ere anyone had heard of Perry Como. (I haven’t managed to bring myself to listen to this material).

    Lawrence Welk isn’t my cup of tea, but he certainly had a constituency. I have a hypothesis, and that is that sweet jazz is appealing to people who’ve known hardships that are fairly uncommon among people who have known only life in the post-war world our fathers built for us. Just a thought.

  37. Zaphod:

    Too late! I already like Leni Riefenstahl.

    There’s no getting around her graphic sense and ability to tell a visual story. I don’t have much problem factoring out an artist’s politics or personality.

    BTW “The Wonderful Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl” doco is excellent.

  38. Frederick,

    ‘Mother Love Bone’

    Yep, the whole Seattle scene was my deal as I was living there in the early 90s and Cobain went to a neighboring high school and was two years ahead of me.

    Andrew Wood had he lived would have been up there with Cornell as frontman.

    Chris Cornell was inspired to write this classic song by his death.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmxaFf-lpZY

  39. @ArtDeco:

    “I have a hypothesis, and that is that sweet jazz is appealing to people who’ve known hardships that are fairly uncommon among people who have known only life in the post-war world our fathers built for us. Just a thought.”

    A good thought. Seems to be something similar going on with Filipinos, the vast majority of whom lead pretty hard lives.

    Anak
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-n-2lPzH7Do

  40. Re: Lawrence Welk…

    My grand-uncle appeared on the Welk show a few times to show off his remarkable whistling ability. Here he is, whistling the Lawrence Welk theme:

    –Art Coates, “Bubbles in the Wine”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySFL7v31He4

    I can’t resist adding that he was a personal friend of Truman’s and I found records of their meetings after Truman got off work.

  41. @Huxley:

    Good Man!

    It’s quite amusing to think that every Olympic opening ceremony and the associated festivities and iconography ever since have been based on this.

  43. Zaphod:

    I’m nothing special at all when it comes to whistling. I have no clue how Uncle Art did that. Supposedly he practiced by listening to the birds at dusk.

  44. “listening to the birds”

    Always a wise move. It’s the worst thing about the long summers here — having to keep the windows closed and aircon on and not being able to hear the birds outside.

  45. Zaphod:

    Amazon Prime doesn’t offer it, but currently the Riefenstahl doco is available on YouTube. I wouldn’t depend on this link lasting forever.

    –“The Wonderful Horrible Life of Leni Riefenstahl [Documentary 1993]”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs7pJaFpxVM

    I saw it at an art house in San Francisco back then. I may watch it again.

    Here’s Roger Ebert’s review:

    https://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-wonderful-horrible-life-of-leni-riefenstahl-1994

  47. I was in high school in the 50s and did not like rock and roll. In college I began to like classical music and have continued to do so. In the 70s and 80s, I learned to like country and still do. I have liked opera for 30 years but rarely get to see it since 2020. Pretty eclectic taste in music.

    Never liked the Beatles but I do like the BeeGees.

  48. Thanks Huxley. I’ve queued it up.

    I’ve always thought that she wasn’t quite as full-on in the day and then later as unapologetic as (to pick one) Hanna Reitsch the test pilot. And a bit less of a ducker and weaver than Speer. Will be interesting to see if this doco confirms or disabuses me.

  49. I found my way into country through hippie bluegrass albums. In particular, “Old & In the Way” with Jerry Garcia, David Grisman, Peter Rowan and the incomparable Vassar Clements.

    Old & In The Way – Old & In The Way
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYETHsxAv8c

    That album cleaned my ears right out. I couldn’t say I didn’t like country music afterward.

    It became the best-selling bluegrass album of all time until the “O Brother Where Art Thou?” soundtrack came out.

    PS. Owsley, the legendary LSD chemist, was the recording engineer.

  50. Wow, I loved the novelty silly songs in my youth, “Tiny Weeny Bikini’ and silly stuff along with the ballad songs of the time, some of the Rock and Roll and then the silly early 60’s songs with melody, a beat to dance to and more silly stuff. At the same time I was totally a fan of the classical Bach, Mozart, Vivaldi and haunting sounds of Dvorak and I had an older brother in law who told me I was stupid for disliking the Country Western stuff and he liked to argue. Later on I did like some of the songs of Johnny Cash, Waylon, Willy and the boys in Luckenbach close to where I live now and some of good old Dolly Parton are great too. My stuff in my mix for traveling is a total mix of stuff from classical to Lynyrd Skynyrd, Bach, Tchaikovsky and a bit of Sousa and I can’t stand much of any of the current whiny, mixed up singer song writer crap.. But that’s just me.

  51. Re: Novelty songs…

    OldTexan:

    “Flying Purple People Eater” is one of my most vivid early memories. Yes, I loved them too!

    It’s a personal sadness that novelty songs have gone extinct except for brave Sir Al Yankovic.

    Where have we gone wrong as a country?

  52. It’s weird how the novelty song went away at some point (Weird Al is parody). Not even sure what the last big hit novelty song would be.

    Dance craze songs have still been around from the ‘Macarena’ to numerous rap songs but no more novelty.

    There is a distinct lack of fun in current music it seems to me.

  54. I guess I am sort of a country music snob. The current mainstream stuff is just awful. Vapid and empty. Lot of the independent stuff is amazing though. Cody Jinks, Turnpike Troubadours and a few others are great.

    But like so much music I tend to go to the old stuff. Merle Haggard has an extraordinary catalogue of songs. Songs that he wrote all by his lonesome.

    One of the most talented artists in twentieth century American music.

  55. @Griffin:Yep, the whole Seattle scene was my deal as I was living there in the early 90s

    If you don’t mind going a little further down I-5, and a little later into the 90s, you might look into The Dandy Warhols or The Brian Jonestown Massacre if you don’t know them.

  56. Frederick,

    Liked the Dandy Warhols. If you like those two I’m sure you’ve seen ‘Dig’.

    There was so much great music that came out of the NW in the years after the Big Four Seattle bands hit it big. The Screaming Trees from Ellensburg, Death Cab For Cutie from Bellingham. It was a pretty amazing time to be a young music fan in this area.

    Kind of a shame that so many of these other bands are kind of niche in the shadow of the big four.

    I remember the Melvins which were from my area. Was a little young and they were a little hardcore for my tastes but lots of people loved them

  57. I remember when the A & R people all decided that the Seattle scene was all used up(which it probably was) and Portland was the new Seattle. Lot of bands got signed but none really hit the big time.

  58. I’m sure you’ve seen ‘Dig’.

    No… both bands say that a narrative was created out of little snippets put together over seven years, with no basis. Typical media stuff in other words…

  59. Neo:

    That Z lumps Maus (I & II), both on my bookshelf, with anime says something about his “discrimination.”

    Off topic again. Allie Brosh’s second book, long awaited, was a mix of graphics and text, but I found it profoundly sad and nihilistic. A troubled soul. Depression takes a heavy toll.

    But back to the theme, music!

  60. @Neo:

    I read your review.

    You’ve convinced me that in this instance words and illustrations combined amount to more than the sum of their parts.

  62. @ Telemachus > “The heavy metal, when I am unfortunately exposed to it now, just makes me run for the door.”

    I have no idea what “heavy metal” is supposed to comprise, and have no interest in finding out.
    However, one of my daughters-in-law sent this to us a couple of days ago, and I really liked it.
    I suspect that’s partially because the singer is actually, you know, singing.
    I checked his bio and he got real training, as opposed to just — as I think of most modern singers — mouthing off.
    Sounds snobbish, doesn’t it?
    But, I also liked the drums and driving instrumental accompaniment. It really kind of fit the message of the song.

    Anyway, here is a seasonal treat – Dan Vasc singing a heavy metal version of “Angels We Have Heard on High.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO94qx63cOA

    Quiz: name the language in which he sings each verse.
    Everyone will get the fourth, so you start with at least a C- grade.

  63. I also dropped away from music, for me it was in the 80s through to this past couple of years when I’ve renewed my love of listening, and my new love of watching live performances on video, either Youtube or on DVD/Bluray. Youtube has so much to discover with a whole world of new, to me, amazing musical talents from all parts of the world.

    I admit my interest is limited to genre I’ve loved before, blues, rock, folk, though those labels bend a lot. Just tonight I discovered a hard rock all girl group out of Japan. Their outfits are the usual Japanese-weird but their playing is very good.

    Band-Maid, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LxX_t4vg7U

  64. @ Zaphod > “An Ear Worm Thread might be fun.”

    While researching Mr. Vasc, I discovered that he did a cover of a song that is supposed to be THE earworm of the century, from a 2019 Netflix series called “The Witcher.”

    It was interesting, but I’ve heard better earworms.
    I suspect the “staying power” is partially due to one’s immersion in certain musical genres – or not.
    Anyway, it had an interesting back story.

    Dan Vasc’s metal cover of “Toss a Coin to Your Witcher.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bS4Q-WWyl3Q

    Lyrics are here, if you didn’t quite get them, with the creation story – it’s a fantasy milieu with monster hunters called witchers.
    https://www.menshealth.com/entertainment/a30272296/the-witcher-toss-a-coin-to-your-witcher-song/

    Original soundtrack.
    https://www.cbr.com/how-toss-a-coin-to-your-witcher-became-2019s-most-unlikely-earworm/

  65. @ geoffb > “I also dropped away from music”

    I quit listening when Simon and Garfunkle broke up.

    Neo’s posts and the comments have introduced me to a vast store of popular music that passed me by since then (other than the inescapable muzak and random listening when visiting friends).

    Some I’ve like, some I haven’t.
    Earth-shattering discovery, right?

  66. @ huxley > “My grand-uncle appeared on the Welk show a few times to show off his remarkable whistling ability.”

    That sounded very familiar – I’m pretty sure I saw him at least once, as the Welk show was Required Watching in my family.
    Quite an amazing talent.

    I really miss the old variety shows – a little music, a little dancing, a little comedy, and the odd-ball acts that TV just doesn’t deliver anymore.
    However, Youtube makes finding them so much easier now!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJ9TxJ0azDQ

  68. AesopFan,

    “Some I’ve like, some I haven’t.
    Earth-shattering discovery, right?”

    “Ditto” as a late, and beloved, famous DJ once said.

  69. @AesopFan:

    I had not heard of this Witcher Earworm. But plugs for the Witcher Suite had been showing up in Tidal. So I’ve just pulled it up and listened to Toss a Coin to Your Witcher. Then I checked out the metal cover version you linked. I never thought there’d be a day when I prefer metal anything (although I must admit that Mad Vox Day every now and then recommends some bonkers Japanese All Girl Metal Band which is entertaining to watch for a few minutes).

    Like you I can’t quite figure out why it would be an Ear Worm. Maybe all these young gamers need to get out more!

  70. Grew up in the 1950 and 1960s. Only popular music I liked was the surf stuff. The girls were the ones obsessing about music. We had better things to do. And about the time I graduated from college in 1972, I pretty much quit advancing. Later, I went back and appreciated the music of my youth. Met a guy when I was hitch hiking who was on his way to an Elvis concert, and thought him weird. Later, learned to love him. His music was one of the few things that my wife and I agreed on musically. She got to meet him in the early 1970s at a concert in Las Vegas, where she grew up, and got to go back stage after a concert, where he had gotten her front row seats. One of the few real gentlemen she met who performed there (the other was Bill Cosby). Those two treated her respectfully, and didn’t expect her to go to their rooms with them. Most were letchers (guys) and bitches (gals). Her father and uncle, long time Elvis fans were green with envy.

    She is a little younger, but had a brother who was a very talented drummer (as is her son). The two (brother and son) were music majors in college, and music permeated their lives – most genres. Her son (2 degrees in music) married another musician, and both of their teenaged sons play multiple instruments well enough to be in All State Orchestra. So, living around these music obsessed relatives, she has a very wide taste in popular music, because they do/did. She picked a lot of it up.

    The funny thing was that at my daughter’s recent wedding, they had a DJ, and Rap seemed to predominate. She (wife) admitted that she loved the music, but hates the lyrics. She loves dancing to it (her degree was in dance). She will soon be on Medicare, but shares the musical tastes of 30 year olds. Plus, she loves much of the stuff in between that and the early 1950s.

    The other genre that we do enjoy some of is the older Country Western. More Western. We both had grandfathers who were essentially cowboys (mine escaped it, to Denver, while his brothers stayed on the ranch, while hers moved from back east as a young adult, and embraced it). She has spent part of her time every year for the last 35 or so years in rural MT, and I started joining her there maybe 15 years ago. Now, in retirement, we spend half our time there, and are MT residents. And that is what you hear on the radio in the background around town. You just get used to it, and start enjoying it, hearing it all the time.

  71. Jello Biafra and Mojo Nixon sum up my hatred for modern country music and the pudding heads that make it in “Let’s Go Burn Ole Nashville Down”.

    The older I get the more I gravitate to the music I scoffed at when I was young.

  73. Oh dear. I tend not to listen to types of music, but rather to individual composers and performers, and mostly by instrument. Some days it’s quirky piano – Satie and Monk. Other times it’s just tenor sax players using a lighter reed, like Lester Young, some times a stiffer reed like Coleman Hawkins. Know why? It’s because I’m primarily a guitar player. Rock and Blues and Boogie. Loud. I can’t listen to that all day, or I become a sponge wringing out the same stuff. Had a cat who played with BB King come up to me and ask about a part I played. He was really impressed. Told him I stole it from a Nat Cole piano part. He’d played on the original recording, and never thought to steal it for himself.

  74. I have the most wide-ranging musical tastes of anyone I know. There is no genre which I dislike as a genre. Individual artists, yes. Some sub-genres, maybe, like pop country, but those are vague and really more a matter of individual artists. I still tend to be a bit snobbish at the individual artist or work level, because I have very strong dislikes. “Oh, you like that? How sad.”

  76. @Griffin – I agree re Merle Haggard, he’s just an American treasure. But of all his great songs perhaps my favorite is one he didn’t write – “That’s the Way Love Goes” written by Lefty Frizzell and Sanger D. Shafer. Merle give just a wonderful reading of a well-written, simple, somewhat wistful song. And not only a great singer and prodigious songwriter, Merle also picked a mean Tele as he does here.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhaju2pwrJg
    I have the CD “Merle Haggard’s 40 #1 Hits” and it is a good one. Don’t know if this is true, but it’s a good story: I read years after I bought the recording that Merle only had 39 #1 hits, but they threw in another song just to get to a nice round number.

  77. “…“American Bandstand” … But I found that program boring…”

    “It’s got a beat, and you can dance to it.”

  78. When I was about five, I ran to tell my mother when I first heard music that wasn’t sung. It astonished me that there was such a thing. It does seem that instrumental music ranks higher than both singing and dancing music in the snob hierarchy, and yet, I doubt Bach would accept that ranking. Hmm…

  79. I associate the Welk show with my mother and Saturday nights of my youth. She would have it on the tv. As a kid I never was much of a fan, but I liked the bubbles on stage , ha! And that final song about “ Good night” was ok.

  80. I suppose that my broad appreciation of music has the two bookends that I do not like like. The previously mentioned rap, which seems almost uncivilized and the extremely pleasant music that I recall from the Welk show of my youth. Seemed too civilized, all those suites and ties and such pleasantry. If I watched a rerun of the Welk show now at aged 51, I might have a different opinion.

  81. Yep, watching the Lawrence Welk show on Saturday nights at my grandparents in the 1970s is one of my earliest musical memories. I remember some bits and pieces like Myron Floren on the accordion.

    My grandmother loved Lawrence Welk because like her he was from North Dakota and from a family of German immigrants.

    Good memories.

  82. I grew up in the 50’s and 60’s and my parents were fans of the country music of that era. Our radio was always tuned to the local country station, so my earlier musical tastes gravitated that way. (“A White, Sport Coat, and a Pink Carnation.”, or “In 1814 We Took A Little Trip…”) However, as I got older my musical tastes evolved, and like Mac above, there is no particular genre that I dislike – as a genre. Individual artists, yes and no. (The older stuff, even though it might be obscure and campy by today’s standards, still gives me a big nostalgia hit.)

    I was turned on to classical music when, in the 8th grade, my class went on a field trip to see the Louisville Orchestra play. It was wonderful. I almost cried when the concert was over. I’ve been hooked ever since. (Thank you Sister Pat.)

    I’ve always liked most pop music too. Here’s a fun fact: In 1969, the year of Woodstock and the height of the Beatles, what was the number one pop hit of that year? Answer: “Sugar Sugar”, by the Archies! Yep, that silly song beat out the fab four. (…and by the way, I loved that song – still do!)

    Now, about music snobbery. There will always be people who want to supervise other peoples tastes. Pay no attention to them. Listen to what you like and be happy.

  85. Regarding classical non-ballet vs ballet music: Perhaps the distinction is that ballet music is ‘functional’ in a way that is perceived to be limiting. At the very least it is more compelling in conjunction with the ballet than by itself. Of course some ‘pure’ classical music gets set to ballet after the fact, but that just means there’s more of a continuum than a sharp line.

  86. There is a distinct lack of fun in current music it seems to me.

    Griffin:

    Pretty much and it goes against the grain of rock’n’roll as I appreciate it. The New Social Justice Puritanism is puritanical in the worst sense of Mencken’s definition. “Puritanism: The haunting fear that someone, somewhere, may be happy.”

    That last fun pop song I recall (granted, I’m not full-coverage) is Rebecca Black’s “Friday” (2011). It’s an auto-tuned earworm with 157 million views, so I caution against idly clicking the link:

    –“Rebecca Black – Friday”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kfVsfOSbJY0

    But heck, it’s just a bunch of teens celebrating the last day of the school week with each other, untroubled by white supremacy, trans prejudice, and the crucial issues of diversity, equity and inclusion. Black must choose between sitting in the front seat or the back seat of the car and that’s about as serious as it gets.

    Of course, the song was hated by nearly everyone who fancied themselves as serious listeners.

    I won’t say it’s a great song, but it’s a fun song and there used to be a lot more of them on the radio.

  87. Never occurred to me to be disdainful of fans of one kind or another of music. I knew what I really didn’t like but….mox nix.
    Couldn’t then, and thinking about it now, connect any kind of personal characteristic to music.
    Although, wrt the Travis Scott catastrophe, some guy commented he didn’t know if it were C&W (given the name) or something else. Then he found that one of the fans had been dancing on top of the ambulance and the crowd wasn’t making room.
    At a C&W concert, there would have been a lane cleared, two hundred veterans/EMT/Scouts rendering first aid–see Las Vegas–prayer circles formed and Amazing Grace going a capella.
    But it wouldn’t have happened in the first place.
    So I guess there’s my snobbery.

  88. Novelty songs? I immediately thought Monster Mash (1962; #7), but then looked some more up: https://www.liveabout.com/top-best-novelty-songs-3248320

    Barbie Girl (’97 – plus some Slovak duo singing in English with a Slovak accent, was a small hit around 2000)
    Crazy Frog – Axel F (I didn’t know this, 2005, over 3 billion views Bln)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k85mRPqvMbE
    Disco Duck (’76)
    Grandma Got Run Over by a Reindeer (’79)
    King Tut (’78 – Steve. Martin.)
    They’re Coming To Take Me Away Ha-haa (’66)
    The Time Warp (’75 Rocky Horror)
    The Streak (’74; by Ray Stevens who also did Gitarzan, a song I’d sing to my kids at night, sometimes [also sang They’re Coming to Take Me Away])
    White and Nerdy (’06, Weird Al)
    – “A protege of legendary radio performer Dr. Demento, Yankovic first gained national attention in 1980 with his parody of the Knack’s “My Sharona” titled “My Bologna.”
    I started listening to Dr. Demento in ’72 in HS; he started in L.A. (’70)
    Weird Al got a grammy for (my fav, ’84) Eat It.

    Somehow missed Rebecca Black – Friday, and it’s fun.
    YT offers me Talking Heads live in Rome (’80) – they were a fun band.

  89. Re: Crazy Frog

    Tom Grey:

    Fun!

    Weird to watch something for the first time I read all the nostalgia for the old days in the comments.

    Dr. Demento is irreplaceable. Where have we gone wrong as a country?

  90. And the song that made fun of racism and hating different folks.

    Randy Newman ~
    Short people got no reason
    Short people got no reason
    Short people got no reason to live

    [Verse 1]
    They got little hands, little eyes
    They walk around tellin’ great big lies
    They got little noses, tiny little teeth
    They wear platform shoes on their nasty little feet

    and the the left loved being affronted by it, they did not get it.

  91. Old Texan:

    So many things in music can’t he said or sung today. But “Lets Go Brandon!,” while not Randy Newman, does get aired.

  94. The focus of my musical snobbishness these days lies in the realm of liturgical translation and the types of hymnographic arrangements classified as ‘neo-Byzantine’, a term about which I suspect I can be beautifully snobby, as I don’t really know what it means, but I have strong opinions about some of it nonetheless. Or at least what pass for strong opinions with me.

    Even some of the music in my parish choir’s music collection makes me think “eww, really?!” when I pull it out and review it. That reaction is sometimes induced by a melodic sequence or cadence that just doesn’t seem to belong in the context, such as when the arranger sees a need to force certain traditional melodies into a four-part SATB context – one can easily end up with a soprano or alto passage that really doesn’t fit the ethos.

    As often, it can be caused by the arranger’s attempt to cram the square peg of Byzantine chant (microtonal, modal) into the round hole of Western music (equal temperament and so on), which can and often does result in a certain amount of melodic awkwardness or just plain inaccuracy. (In particular, attempting to transcribe hymns originally in Byzantine mode 4 into Western notation runs a high risk of yielding particularly ugly results.)

    As I occasionally try to explain to my choir, except for the straight-up enharmonic modes, it seems to me that every other transcription of Byzantine chant into Western music is inevitably an approximation at best. Some of the approximations happen to work relatively well, to be sure, but others are rather ‘lossy’, especially in the diatonic and soft-chromatic spaces.

    The whole subject of liturgical text translations, which is closely tied to the music aspect, is also something on which I regularly spend my snob-vibes.

    So that’s my snobby side on display.

  95. @ Phillip Sells,

    Do you have any links to Byzantine chant or liturgical music?

    Not aware of ever having heard it, or even knowing it was something significantly different in essentials from, say, Gregorian chant. ( In all honesty all that sing-song stuff sounds much the same to me … Some pleasant, mostly boring )

    I do recall looking up Ambrosian Rite chant on YouTube and not really getting what was so distinct about it.

    I don’t think I would know what to look for in Byzantine… So maybe you can point.

    And too, expand if you like, on equal temperament. I keep thinking ” well tempered “, and I only barely grasp that in a practical sense.

    As far as the RCs go; after having never darkend the door of a church in 30 plus years, I took my declining mother to Mass a couple of times in order to give my Protestant father a rest.

    The wimpy, modernist, eagles soar, peace and justice sxxt they were spewing made me nearly walk out. But I could not very well leave an elderly woman I cherished sitting alone in a pew as I went off to stand and fume in a vestibule, just because of my disgusted pique at wimp.music warbled by a bunch of gay males and butch chicks.

    But as for Holy Holy Holy, Faith of our Fathers, and Sanctissima … They are standard fare no more, apparently.

  96. Was going to recommend Rick Beato, but I see others have beaten me to it, so I’ll just stop here and…recommend Rick Beato’s channel anyway. He’s an example of the open-mindedness I see about music in many of the better musicians that I know. If nothing else, his deep dives into individual songs gives you an appreciation of how complex some of them really are, and how much detail you often can’t hear, even on a decent stereo system.

    I try to keep an open mind myself, though like others I’m finding I’m spending more time expanding my knowledge of older music/performers rather than listening to the rather flat-sounding modern stuff. The jazz section of my CD collection has been growing the most recently…I’m somewhere around 600 CDs and I have a long way to go.

  97. If it’s danceable I usually like it. Rap and Hip Hop are very danceable. I never understood the appeal of sitting in an audience listening to a musical performance, with the exception of sitting on the floor of a dance studio as a teenager to listen to Pablo Casals play for our class. Jazz challenges me, as does Country. The rest is all good.

  98. The beat Neo; it’s in the beat. Some music just compels you to move with it, unbidden, in a primitive way. It’s sensual (not to be confused with sexual, although related). From the brain-stem, not the cortex. “Dance music” all has this in common, as, for example, ballads do not. There the more discerning parts of our brains are involved. Some folks look down on us “primitives”, and some primitives give it up to us “sophisticates”. Others (I hope the majority) roll both ways and celebrate both activities, the feeling they engender and connections they create.

  100. NewYorkCentral:

    I’ve watched a lot of Beato’s videos. I think he’s especially good on what drives modern pop music, and why it sounds so monotonous. However, he focuses on a lot of musicians I don’t care much about and ignores many of the ones I do. I’m more inclined to listen to and enjoy the guy who calls himself the Professor of Rock.

  101. @DNW, here are some.

    George Theodoridis has a voice and ethos that appeal to me. He’s lead chanter at the cathedral in D. C. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTHn0YuwDOM is nice because it’s one of the few recordings of his that I’ve heard which is from a real service.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0tbqRP_VWVc&t=16s is a training example from him.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1_CGJ7d9hc is the complete Canon of Matins for Christmas, taken at a pretty good clip – not sure which choir it is.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vBg9nS9m_8 is, I think, from the Boston Byzantine Choir in English.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRajIGA154I&list=PLXo1mxnBNAEndTJyziQrD5NLxxQxmIyPy is another one in English that we will hear regularly in a couple of months.

    Apparently it’s not so easy to find good recordings of some of my favorite hymns.

    Byzantine chant is monophonic and text-focused, so much of the spirit of each hymn is established by the scale used and the foundational note.

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