Home » The Delta variant: as contagious as chicken pox?

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The Delta variant: as contagious as chicken pox? — 81 Comments

  1. Like temperature records, R noughts get adjusted downwards when it becomes necessary to write panic porn about the latest variant. We are probably seeing that right now with the NPR article- if you continue to proclaim Delta has an R nought of 6-9, then the next variant has to be upped to 9-12, which is ridiculous on its face.

  2. I’m still tracking daily data on 6 states. The current new case level is now the same as mid January, and will probably exceed that high water mark.

    What is remarkable is that the daily deaths are averaging about a tenth of what they were for the same case load in January. And in some instances like CT and NH, well below even that. So, yes, delta more contagious, less deadly. Of course when I point this out on FB, the lib/ Dem set says it’s more to do with our wonderful medical system, but the delta is as bad if not worse than alpha. Sigh…

  3. I heard a quote the other day that it was easier to catch than Ebola. True, but I bet most people were misled by this.

  4. “ What is remarkable is that the daily deaths are averaging about a tenth of what they were for the same case load in January. And in some instances like CT and NH, well below even that.”

    Which proves once again that the only metric that matters is number of deaths and that cases can be manipulated to stir up fear. Of course, deaths can be manipulated too by assigning deaths with Covid to be deaths due to Covid.

    The numbers are as polluted and corrupt as the election voting. Which reminds me, I watched the Mike Lyndel election fraud show so you don’t have to. The claim is interesting but I think the guy got carried away with his theory and somehow jammed all his data to make it fit. The results are too perfect and too consistent for any real data set. I certainly think that the election was 100% stolen, but an impartial exam of his methods would probably find serious flaws.

    https://theconservativetreehouse.com/blog/2021/08/10/stunning-video-explanation-dr-douglas-frank-shows-how-the-2010-census-was-used-to-create-the-algorithm-that-fabricated-the-2020-electronic-vote-outcome/#more-215169

  5. They lied? Again?
    I’m shocked! Shocked I tell you.
    Eventually…it’ll be the last one.

  6. physicsguy, I’ll believe it’s our wonderful medical system when they start using the generic therapeutics widely (i.e., ivermectin, and others). The fact that deaths are down so dramatically means, since treatments haven’t changed since last winter, that the virus isn’t as dangerous — coupled with the fact that the Grim Reaper came for a lot of the most vulnerable in 2020.

  7. Since the virus and its variants are so politicized, maybe it is time to stop paying attention to it/them.

  8. “…[T]he leaked document underestimated the R0 for chickenpox and overestimated the R0 for the delta variant.”

    How surprising! But what better way to keep the fear porn going?

    “These warnings will probably not halt the question as to whether mutations will arise in SARS-CoV-2, enabling it to spread more efficiently between humans or generate a higher case fatality rate.”

    There’s no “question”. No question at all that the Chinese are working diligently to enable future viruses to spread more efficiently between humans and generate a higher case fatality rate.

    Anyone who’d bet that the CCP isn’t hell bent on developing more deadly viruses is either a liar or willfully blind or not paying attention. China recently announced its intent to create 100 more Wuhan style labs.

    This may come as a surprise but the CCP has already declared war upon America.

    Nor are they fearful of reprisal. Severe economic sanctions would cripple our economy, as much as theirs. Militarily, neither the Xiden administration or a RINO controlled Republican Congress are going to risk a nuclear war over biological warfare that includes plausible deniability. With but a very few exceptions this is not a Congress like the one that backed Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crises.

    Hell, the global ‘elite’ are on board with seriously reducing the population. Say “climate change” to them and watch the crazed gleam appear in their eyes.

  9. @physicsguy:

    Or earlier variants knocked off the weak already. Or vaccines reduce risk of hospitalization and death. Or Delta is less deadly itself. Or some weighted function of these 3 plus other factors I can’t think of right now + political/perverse-incentives deltas (sic) + an Epsilon the size of Alaska.

    Much against my inclinations, I’m applying the simplifying assumption that Race is a Social Construct and looking at countries which are experiencing their first real wave: Thailand and Vietnam. Crude average of their CFRs is 1.4%. US since beginning of Covid-19 ~1.7% — granted perverse incentives, politics, etc.

    Numbers from Worldometers.

    I think too early to say. Have said before and will say again that yes viruses do to tend to mutate to be more transmissible and less fatal. In the ‘long run’. In the short term and only about 2 years into its life in the wild, I wouldn’t be betting against it throwing up some nasty and virulent mutations.

  10. “Of course, deaths can be manipulated too by assigning deaths with Covid to be deaths due to Covid.” Paul in Boston

    What basis is there for thinking that deaths “with Covid” aren’t fraudulent too with some unknown percentage of deaths being entirely free of Covid infection? Are some lies too big for the Left?

    Hospitals have a financial incentive to declare as many deaths as possible due to Covid. Then there the CDC’s ability to ‘massage’ the data, with which we’ve seen numerous examples.

    Once they start lying, they have to keep lying, to keep their house of cards from collapsing.

    “Oh what a tangled web we weave… when first we practice to deceive.” Sir Walter Scott

  11. @GB:

    Of course they have declared war on you. Your Rulers are a plague upon humanity. As you rightly mention, your Rulers also want you dead.

    I’d say first order of business is dealing with your overlords. By the time you’ve done that, the CCP might be dead and gone or have mutated into something more benign. One thing is for sure, though… that Your Rulers and the CCP are locked in a spiral where existence of one is a justification for the ever-growing-tyranny of the Other. Believe me when I say that you’ve got more chance of breaking the cycle at home than across the Pacific.

  12. @Cicero:

    You may not be interested in Covid Policy, but Covid Policy is Interested in You. Sadly.

    I think there’s some value in having a rough personal estimation of risks and mitigations and keeping on continuously updating one’s priors and grinding it out Bayes-like.

    We all like to point finger at Left for believing things which are manifestly not true and politicizing everything. The Right, too, has to be careful not to let intelligent skepticism ossify into ideological rigidity. I could easily imagine a scenario where a mutation popped up with CFR of 5% or 10% and it took the Right too long to adjust to the new reality because had gotten fixated on the Left amping the numbers and panic factor last year.

    Unfortunately keeping up requires wading through rivers and swamps of epistemological and ideological ordure. It *does* wear one down.

  13. It “is as transmissible as: – Chicken Pox,” the agency wrote in a slideshow presentation leaked to The Washington Post on July 26.

    The value for the chickenpox (and other R0s in the slideshow) came from a graphic from The New York Times, which wasn’t completely accurate…

    When we were going through this type of material a few days ago, I was looking at this graphic from the CDC several times before I realized that, …

    It states, in smallish print, in the corner,
    The New York Times
    The original graph from 2/28/2020

    The new Delta variant range of possibilities was then layered on top of this graphic/chart.

    So when we were thrashing around in ignorance 16 months ago and journalists were throwing information out there in a slip-shod fashion, that’s the basis info that the CDC geniuses want to use for disseminating new information now??

    The genius with her name on the slides is:
    Meredith McMorrow, MD, MPH

    One virtue of this trick/dodge/gimmick is that Ms. McMorrow could always retort that, it wasn’t my mistake, it was the NYTimes’ mistake. BTW, the R0 for measles on that chart is wrong as well, IIRC.

    Someone here referred to scientists and bureaucrats “cherry picking data” some days ago. I know what he/she meant, but … I’d called it picking rotten data apples off the ground. Where can I find the worst possible data. Oh, the New York Times! Sweet.

    The graph in question is slide #15 here:
    https://context-cdn.washingtonpost.com/notes/prod/default/documents/8a726408-07bd-46bd-a945-3af0ae2f3c37/note/57c98604-3b54-44f0-8b44-b148d8f75165.#page=1

  14. From the CCP:

    The “rulers” of the west are a plague upon humanity but the CCP may become more benign?

    Well the CCP sure plagued 20-30 million+ of its subjects in the last century. It was hard pressed to keep up with the other two “Jones’s” but that “evil genius” sure tried. Not sure what constitutes a “genius” when the fruits of totalitarian rule in the USSR and Germany were not really a secret by the time that “genius” took control of China.

  15. @om:

    It’s pretty simple. But clearly not simple enough for you.

    >>>Who wants you dead more? The people in DC and more locally Seattle? Or the people in Beijing?<<<

    All your other stuff about Great Leap Forward, etc. is hand-waving and self-coping. That's a Chinese problem for Chinese people to work out.

    The cold, brutal, cruel, heart-breaking, hard work that needs to be done and should not be procrastinated is right on your doorstep. And De Nile is not just a River in Africa.

  16. More contagious, less abortive. Ironically, the general distribution of non-sterilizing quasi-vaccines (e.g. asymptomatic cases with high viral titers) is a first-order forcing of viral evolution, and viable animal reservoirs mean that this virus will have safe sanctuaries irrespective of natural immunity, resistance, and therapeutic measures to stem its progress.

  17. Zaphod,

    Of course liberty starts at home. They imagine they rule because our allegiance to the rule of law has convinced them that we will go quietly into the night. Wall Street, being utterly divorced from Main Street, imagines that they’re in an unassailable position. They are constitutionally incapable of grasping that civilization rests upon the efforts of the lower middle and middle middle classes. Truckers, grocers, police and fire. Farmers, nurses, plumbers, electricians and road crews. It is they who keep civilization’s gears greased. And gears without grease seize up and fail. It is they who are indispensable not stock brokers, practitioners of arbitrage and speculators.

    Sorry, I don’t buy for even a moment that even the slimmest of possibilities exist for the CCP to die of natural causes or to mutate into something more benign. The CCP’s ideological stranglehold on every societal facet in China is too firm. Look to Islam for how long a totalitarian ideology can last.

    Couple that with Marxist’s absolute refusal to examine its blatantly flawed ideological premises and internal reform is a fantasy.

    It is a fundamental mistake to imagine that China’s nationalism is antithetical to its Marxist ideology. So those who assert that China is not as Marxist as it was under Mao are engaging in willful delusion.

    Deng did not persuade the Maoists of his time to abandon Marxist ‘principles’. He persuaded them that in opening up China to economic development by the West, China could acquire the tools and technological prowess it needed to defeat the West.

    Deng proposed that there was a better ‘way’ to win. A way to use the West’s greed against it by getting the capitalists to develop the Chinese market. Which would create the wealth China needed to ‘buy’ the ‘rope’ with which they would hang the West.

    The Chinese leadership bought it because not only did no one else have a credible alternative proposal to Dengs’ but because China’s extreme poverty was inescapable without massive investment from the West.

    You don’t have to be an expert on China to figure out what they’re about, you just have to be able to read the writing on the wall and the tools to do that are to apply common sense in observing what they’re doing.

  18. Enjoy your CCP. Portland and Seattle don’t have nukes or a Wuhan Institute of Virology, or is that lost on you chappie? Who is simple again, preferring the CCP?

    Seems like someone is whistling past the mass graves and who brought them about. Stockholm Syndrome Sino Style. Yep, they worked it out, and worked it out again at Tianamen (sic) Square. Funny about the preferred working methods.

  19. @GB:

    That’s a whole lot of stuff. How many actual Chinese do you know? Read much Chinese history?

    How do you see your Degraded and now Mongrel Polity putting in another 250 years to make it to a quarter (conservatively) of what the Chinese have managed?

    There’s this dead fellow called Sir John Glubb. He wrote a small book on fate of empires. 250 years is about it for most.

    What you want to be doing now is surviving as a race so that you might actually have a culture and a civilization to rebuild. Kvetching about the Chinks is a cope. They give more thought to themselves and their civilizational health than they give to you.

    Such a bore this China Finger Pointing. Sure they’re assholes. News Flash: everyone is an asshole. The trick is to have yourself be governed by your assholes and not Globohomo assholes who want you dead. On balance China has that bit right. You’re in deep do-do. Your rulers want you dead… and all your progeny and everything you ever were and might have been. That’s a bummer. Best get busy hanging them.

    Also, you lose credibility if you use the word Marxist in any discussion of contemporary China. Doing so displays an inability to discern difference between what it says on the box and what is in the box. It’s almost as silly as thinking that you live in a Constitutional Republic with Separation of Powers.

  20. A “man” who prefers the CCP lecturing others to love servitude, while playing the race card everyday. LOL but sad too.

    Carry on carrying the water.

  21. Re Sir John Glubb… I’m sure the fact that he stayed with the Arab Legion after the British Mandate ended has absolutely nothing to do with why he’s been largely unpersoned and forgotten.

    http://people.uncw.edu/kozloffm/glubb.pdf

    The Fate of Empires and Search for Survival is a very short and easy read and is something everybody commenting on current situation in USA, the West, and geopolitics should have under their belts.

    Spengler without all the mystical bullshit.

  22. “XXXIX Summary
    As numerous points of interest have arisen
    in the course of this essay, I close with a brief
    summary, to refresh the reader’s mind.
    (a) We do not learn from history because
    our studies are brief and prejudiced. <— Hi GB.
    (b) In a surprising manner, 250 years
    emerges as the average length of national
    greatness.
    (c) This average has not varied for 3,000
    years. Does it represent ten generations?
    (d) The stages of the rise and fall of great
    nations seem to be:
    The Age of Pioneers (outburst)
    The Age of Conquests <—– Present Chinese Dynasty is a bit Here.
    The Age of Commerce <—– Present Chinese Dynasty is a lot Here.
    The Age of Affluence
    The Age of Intellect
    The Age of Decadence. <—– You are Here.
    (e) Decadence is marked by:
    Defensiveness <——— Certain people posting Here. Yo, Om!
    Pessimism
    Materialism
    Frivolity <——— Me 😛
    An influx of foreigners <—– No shit, Sherlock!
    The Welfare State
    A weakening of religion.
    (f) Decadence is due to:
    Too long a period of wealth and power
    Selfishness
    Love of money
    The loss of a sense of duty.
    (g) The life histories of great states are
    amazingly similar, and are due to internal
    factors.
    (h) Their falls are diverse, because they are
    largely the result of external causes.
    (i) History should be taught as the history
    of the human race, though of course with
    emphasis on the history of the student’s own
    country."

  23. All who commented on this thread will almost assuredly find the video I posted from a very credible man claiming to be an Occupational Therapist in a Hawaiian geriatric facility very interesting. Well worth 10 minutes of your time.

    Here’s the link again: https://files.catbox.moe/059ddp.mp4

  24. Thanks Rufus.

    About what I expected. How he manages to say all that without becoming apoplectic with rage, I cannot fathom. Must have inner resources I lack.

    About the only way that might just succeed in fighting this insane cruel madness would be to claim (falsely) Disparate Impact on native Hawaiians. The West is so far gone that it’s safer to fight lies with lies than with the truth.

    Notice that there’s no actual evil Doctor Evil rubbing his hands with glee at the top of some organisational pyramid of perfidy… Forget that Boomer Republicuck stuff, folks. The System is Evil. I know that sounds like the Weathermen of your long lost youf… but still is true. The System has mutated over the years into something evil. You won’t find a responsible person (you might find scapegoats) …because everyone and no-one is responsible. Needs to be torn down and rebuilt.

    Whoever thought giving vaccines to 80 year old geriatrics living every bonus day on the verge of the precipice of decompensation should hang. But for stupidity. Not for evil intent. As for the System.. again here we are back at Burn. It. Down… if proper functioning of your system relies on people not being stupid and your people are demonstrably stupid, well then it’s utopian nonsense.

  25. 3000 years of civilization but couldn’t get gunpowder beyond an ammusement. Invented cable tool drilling but couldn’t figure out petroleum, or electricity, or man powered avaition, or practical rocketry. But other than that they have always led the world. Please, more apologies for the CCP.

    Is it terminal cynacism or infinite self loathing that drives him?

  26. Thanks for the link, Rufus. Sounds believable. If so, our government and medical hierarchy have botched this pandemic response. In the process they have destroyed their own credibility. I’m beginning to believe that money is the reason. Higher reimbursements for Covid diagnoses? High test rates using a PPCR test that gives many false positives? No Covid treatment for elderly patients diagnosed as positive? Etc. Wow! Who ya gonna trust?

  27. @om:

    “3000 years of civilization but couldn’t get gunpowder beyond an ammusement. Invented cable tool drilling but couldn’t figure out petroleum, or electricity, or man powered avaition, or practical rocketry. But other than that they have always led the world. Please, more apologies for the CCP.

    Is it terminal cynacism or infinite self loathing that drives him?”

    both 😀

    Om… you’re just not very bright. Civilizations go through cycles… and leapfrog each other. China was ahead of the West on virtually any metric you can think of until ca. 1600 – 1700AD. Past performance is no guarantee of future results. Western per-capita innovation peaked in late C19. Waves come and go. You and I happened to be born at the crest of the wave of Western Civ. Big $%^&ing Deal. We were lucky. I don’t see why you’re so attached to past glories. If your distant progeny are around in 250 or 500 years, perhaps some tiny fragment of your diluted genes will get to laugh at the Chinese as they get their comeuppance for a while. The wheel turns for us all. Cool. Whatever floats your boat.

    For now: Best Clean House. Surviving as a Race and as a family lineage to be around when your civilizational wheel reaches the next upswing is all that should matter to you. What the Chinks do in the interim is not much of your business unless you’re willing to learn some positive lessons from them instead of just spewing defensive copes.

  28. The Covid graphs with Delta spikes I’ve been looking at since the weekend seem to be leveling off already. However, with an R0 of 5.7 (a median of current estimates) the number of infections should be doubling every 2-3 days.

    If so, I guess it’s a low-hanging-fruit situation and R0 will have to be downgraded for Delta. We’ll see if that holds.

    It could be Delta is a scary mini-surge and in a few weeks or a month, we will be back to grinding Delta down, at least in the US.

    Then the real battle goes to getting the rest of the world vaxxed.

  29. “…willing to learn some positive lessons…”

    IOW, whether America’s corrupt media, as “creative” as it is, will find a way to be as creative as China’s?:
    https://blazingcatfur.ca/2021/08/11/chinese-media-caught-in-fake-news-claims-by-non-existent-swiss-scientist-critical-of-us-for-politicizing-covid-origins/

    Ditto, of course, for America’s corrupt politicos, who are certainly trying their hardest, so it seems.

    File under: Keeping up with the Xis…

  30. @Barry Meislin:

    How many times do I have to say The CCP are assholes in order for people to grok that you can still learn from assholes what to do as well as what not to do?

    That thing you’re typing on to debate with me… Can your country make one today? It cannot. Used to be able to… Semi-sorta-kinda invented it once upon-a-time. That’s kinda weird… because Chinky makes dem all now. Not just puts them together… makes all the stuff that goes into them that Whitey cannot. There aren’t even engineers of working age in the West today who understand most of the industrial processes. Young White guys with big ideas for hardware design have to go live in in Shenzhen. Because that’s where it is. No silicon work gets done in Silicon Valley in 2021. I’d say there’s something to learn from Chinky right there.

    Zulu in 1870: “We’ll just buy our gattling guns from the British”.

    Your country did make the USS Gerald R Ford which is currently undergoing more sea trials and looks very impressive and absolutely seems to be the bidness. Untested against a peer level competitor since 1945.. but damn sure looks like it packs some hurt. I’m sure has plenty of Intersectional defences against hypersonic missiles and super-cavitating torpedoes invented in the intervening 75 years, so nothing to worry about there. And the planes they’re planning to fly off it were not designed by a committee to spread the joy around congressional districts. Nope… they were designed by the shade of Kelly Johnson to get the job done. Some very impressive pictures in my feed today of it undergoing shock testing during sea trials.

    Thing is… who is the USS Gerald R Ford more likely to be used on if ever any practical use at all? The Chinese or You. I’m guessing you. Chinks kill their own people with tanks and spend the money they saved on organic fortune cookies or something 🙂

    When their press lies (which it does profusely), it lies to make their people feel better about themselves and more confident and to make weaker minded Whitey feel demoralised. Your press lies continually and makes you demoralised and other people hate you.

    Even something to learn there. At least make your lies work for you.

    I’m not making a moral argument. You don’t say 😀

    Pragmatism = survival.

  31. The man for Xi is not as bright as he claims to be. Indeed the notion of civilization and cycles has been around for a long time, as has the disdain for individual freedom.

    You long for a new boot on your face, one made in the PRC. Well enjoy your CCP. And who is worshiping past glories of a civilization that isn’t yours, while spewing racial slurs? Self loathing indeed.

    And the CCP couldn’t even run a bioweapons lab effectively. Bats, pangolins, foreign soldiers, vaccines that don’t work. Do tell more of your favorite assholes.

  32. Zaphod:

    That was a good discussion we had the other night. I’m still trying to get a better picture of the Chinese response to Covid and determine how the similar American measures failed.

    We masked, distanced, locked-down but did not come near the zero Covid the Chinese apparently achieved after about three months. There were a few outbreaks but they were able to contain and stamp those out.

    It seemed to me that the big difference was ruthless mobility control between the cities and regions, then swooping in with testing and contact tracing teams. I imagine masking and distancing helped, though I tend to doubt they were crucial ingredients.

    MIT has a good, though technical, article:

    –“How China Managed the COVID-19 Pandemic” (April 24, 2021)
    https://direct.mit.edu/asep/article/20/1/75/97309/How-China-Managed-the-COVID-19-Pandemic

    Until now I’ve believed up that the Chinese were lying through the teeth about their results, as they lie about so much else. Apparently not.

  33. @huxley:

    “It seemed to me that the big difference was ruthless mobility control between the cities and regions, then swooping in with testing and contact tracing teams.”

    Yes. I think anything else is just fluff or second-order at best. Masks have some small value in reducing viral load assault in confined spaces. Didn’t hurt. Might have helped a little bit.

    “Until now I’ve believed up that the Chinese were lying through the teeth about their results, as they lie about so much else. Apparently not.”

    Took me until early this year to accept that all the indications from China were that life was pretty normal there. Living next door. Deluged with China positivity news both real and false 24/7. No surprise that it would take you longer being further away and getting less daily China stuff in your feeds.

    ^– Interesting data point there. 5-10 years ago, Tom Friedman and all the other yapping GloboHomo commentariat types would have been constantly blasting you with China High Speed Rail, China going Green Faster than West (a lie), Chinese Governance Model Gets Things Done Better and Faster.. and so on. Funny how silent they are now about the China Model for handling Covid-19. But of course GloboHomo has no interest in relaxing the controls Covid has ushered in the West.

    The CCP doesn’t *need* Covid-19 and Covid passports and an on-going Covid Emergency to bring its citizenry to heel. It has plenty of tried and tested methods already. Indeed when you make claims to possessing the Mandate of Heaven, you actually have to demonstrate ability to mitigate effects of natural disasters and epidemics.

    That doesn’t excuse them for starting it all off. Initial sloppiness and then malice aforethought in making sure rest of world got it too. You know this. But for benefit of others reading this screed, we’re more interested right now in best practices for handling Covid-19 given that it’s a done deed and out in the wild.

    “as they lie about so much else.”

    You, me, and all other Men of the West are going to have to work harder on our Swampology and be a bit less James Jesus Angleton when it comes to our Beijingology (Zhongnanhai-ology to be precise) and Kremlinology. Sometimes… and with a boatload of disclaimers, their guys are telling the truth when our guys are being the lying shit bags.

  34. @Huxley:

    I don’t believe the lowish official numbers in that MIT paper by one Wei Tian. Seem too conveniently low.

    Because I never trusted the *numbers* coming out of China, I couldn’t get myself to believe that they had the outbreak under control by mid-2020.

    But really why not? The logic would have been to keep official numbers down to mitigate panic (and save face) whilst rapidly iterating to find the most effective public health measures (no matter how draconian). Perfectly possible for them to have lied to their own public and the world about the case numbers *and* to have beaten the virus at the same time. All the responsible officials had to do was make sure that they didn’t lie too much to themselves. Difficult to do society-side in normal times. Easy to do for one or two clearly focused objectives when you’re on a ‘War Footing.’

    Broader point is that Westerners have made a religion out of Truth and Openness. And how’s that been working out of late? It’s complicated. A lot of our cherished assumptions about ourselves and our societies and how they work just ain’t so.

  35. Thanks for the link Rufus. Where he loses me is the claim that many elderly died due to the vaccination they received. What makes him so sure of this? He makes a very good observation that people dying of non-Covid ailments are classified as Covid deaths. But he does not likewise consider that the vaccinated elderly died of existing or natural conditions not related to vaccinations. I think this general statement about vaccination deaths undercuts his otherwise excellent exposure of the Great Covid Fraud.

  36. @Xylourgos:

    “Where he loses me is the claim that many elderly died due to the vaccination they received.”

    Dunno Mister Carpenter…. I easily imagine mild for you and me adverse vaccine reactions knocking off many elderly patients who were biding their time waiting for the next gentle nudge to push them over the decompensation precipice. Once we reach a certain physiological point due to old age and/or chronic disease we’re all just one flu away from the grave.

    Mass semi-compulsory vaccination of the very frail is going to involve a lot of straws breaking a lot of camels’ backs.

    The good news is that they won’t die from the Delta Strain — so can be sure Delta won’t be as deadly. I shoulda gone to the Harvard School of Public Health. Can’t figure out why they never took to me.

  37. “…made a religion out of Truth and Openness.”

    Indeed, though you may well have gotten that one completely backwards.

    IOW, “Truth and Openness” (and to a large part only “Truth and Openness”—of course, in addition to curiosity and technological prowess as well as Mother NECESSITY) have enabled civilizations to flourish—i.e., in the long term (though “long term”, it is true, may be open to debate).

    That’s right, we’re talking about incorporating a reliable OODA loop—not just for technological/military reasons but for MORAL ones (um, er, try not to laugh too hard).

    One might refer to this requirement, then, as the “Religion of the OODA Loop” (ROTOODAL?), which is, in fact, what the Democratic Party (and its friends) have thrown right out the window…while one could argue that the the CCP (and others of similar ilk) never had in the first place (or had it selectively…which is for intents and purposes the same thing….)

    And because they never had it, they are ultimately doomed. (Though this, I would agree, will not be of much help to “us” in the short run…. I.e., in the “short term”—whatever that is—they can do an awful lot of damage.)

    In the meantime, “we” have to get back to ROTOODAL, which some might equate with a Judeo-Christian ethos, though Hard-Core Shintoists, among others, might disagree…

  38. @BarryMeislin:

    A thoughtful riposte, for which thanks.

    One is minded of the perhaps apocryphal story of one of Frederick the Great’s Postdam Evening Symposia when on being asked by some visiting Philosophe to argue for the existence of God answered:

    “Gentlemen, I give you the Jews!”

    Now, without unpacking that statement made by that person in that setting, it does suggest positive evidence for ROTOODAL being “Lindy” for at least some values of ROTOODAL.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lindy_effect

    The Chinese have their ups and downs… pretty big swings. But despite the fortunes and misfortunes of multiple dynastic cycles and invasions, they remain Chinese. This cannot be said for (e.g.) successors to the Western and Eastern Roman Empires. So the Chinese with or without their morals (Confucianism was only on the out until Mao died… It’s back, BTW) look pretty good to me because they just keep on keeping on. Western Civ Fragility bugs me a lot. I’m a bit sentimentally attached to it, really.

    Best hope never to meet a Hard-Core Shintoist Revivalist. He won’t just be wielding Occam’s Razor.

  39. Zaphod, he makes the claim that he is aware of 32 patients dying immediately after and because of taking the vaccine. That is a lot of people for him to be personally involved with. What exactly is the straw that breaks the camel’s back? I cannot imagine so many people within his circle dying of complications from a vaccine. I can accept most of his other claims, but consider me a skeptic on the death count due to the vaccine. I just don’t buy it without supporting evidence.

  40. Zaphod; Rufus T. Firefly; Xylourgos:

    He’s not just saying that 32 patients of his died right after getting a shot. He’s also saying that, prior to that, almost no one had died of COVID itself in the same unit, and the 12 people who died there with COVID all were relatively symptom-free in terms of COVID despite their age and fragility, and all died of something else.

    So COVID wasn’t lethal even to the elderly and infirm, and yet the vaccine was.

    Not buying it at all.

  41. The Delta does seem to be bubbling away in Russia.

    https://asiatimes.com/2021/08/russia-posts-record-daily-virus-fatalities/

    “Russia on Thursday reported its highest daily coronavirus death toll since the start of the pandemic, as a third wave persists despite an intensifying vaccination drive.

    A government tally reported 808 fatalities over the past 24 hours – the first time Russia has crossed the 800-mark for daily virus deaths – and 21,932 new infections.

    Russia, the fourth worst-hit country in the world in terms of cases, according to an AFP tally, has been swept with an unrelenting third wave since mid-June that has been driven by the Delta variant.

    Authorities have faced a vaccine-skeptic population, with a poll by the independent Levada Centre this week showing that 55% of Russians do not plan on getting a jab.

    Moscow, the epicenter of Russia’s outbreak, and a host of regions have introduced mandatory vaccination measures to speed up the country’s inoculation drive, and President Vladimir Putin has repeatedly called on Russians to get vaccinated.

    But as of Thursday, only 28.8 million of Russia’s some 146 million people had been fully vaccinated, according to the Gogov website, which tallies Covid data from the regions.

    With 168,049 deaths from the virus, Russia has the highest official Covid-19 toll in Europe – even as authorities have been accused of downplaying the severity of the country’s outbreak.

    Under a broader definition for deaths linked to the coronavirus, statistics agency Rosstat said that Russia has seen more than 300,000 fatalities as of the end of June.“

    I wonder how many perverse incentives exist in Russia for marking deaths down to Covid-19?

  42. Dwaz:

    I caught that comparison to ebola, too. I believe it was purposely misleading because of people’s misperceptions of the transmissibility of ebola, which is very transmissible if certain conditions are met, but those conditions are not met by casual contact:

    Health workers who do not use proper infection control while caring for Ebola patients, and family and friends in close contact with Ebola patients, are at the highest risk of getting sick. Ebola can spread when people come into contact with infected blood or body fluids.
    Ebola poses little risk to travelers or the general public who have not cared for or been in close contact (within 3 feet or 1 meter) with someone sick with Ebola.

  43. Taiwan seems to have gotten its recent one and only Covid bust out under control pretty smartly:

    https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/taiwan/

    So it can be done.

    https://thediplomat.com/2021/07/why-taiwan-is-beating-covid-19-again/

    “How did Taiwan suppress this wave of COVID-19 transmission, even as Australia, Vietnam, and Singapore are struggling with an uptick of the virus?

    First, Taiwan doubled down on longstanding strategies of masking, quarantine measures, and contact tracing. Long before this wave, as early as April 2020, Taiwan had already instituted mask mandates on public transportation. The government extended the mask mandate to everybody on the island and required its citizens to wear a mask outside their home.

    Moreover, Taiwan extended its quarantine facilities for those entering the country from abroad to domestic COVID-19 patients. Many local governments began providing options for anyone testing positive to quarantine in a government-provided hotel or facility. The provision of quarantine facilities significantly reduced transmission of the virus within the family, thus reducing the number of cases in the community.”

  44. Looking at Worldometers, the crude CFR for Taiwan is 5%. This for a country with very low vaccination rates and very limited prior exposure to Covid-19 before the recent one and only big wave which was Delta variant.

    I don’t see the Taiwanese being into over- or under-counting deaths for political reasons. I could imagine them missing asymptomatic cases.

    Or, as I’ve stated above… could be suggesting that Vaccines *do* work given lower CFRs in other countries with Delta and populations more comprehensively vaxed. But counfounding factor is TW didn’t have vulnerable population culled earlier by other variants.

    Worth noting that Delta blasted right through the public health regime which had kept earlier variants at bay. Supports claims that it’s more transmissible.

  45. Zaphod:

    Assuming that masking and other mitigation strategies in Taiwan are the cause of their COVID patterns isn’t necessarily warranted at this time. There could be many other factors involved. What’s more, the natural pattern of viruses (including the 1918 flu) is to come in waves, and to have the countries that mostly escaped the initial waves be harder hit in later waves. It’s often a case of pay now or pay later.

  46. @Neo:

    “But confounding factor is TW didn’t have vulnerable population culled earlier by other variants.”

    ^—Not assuming anything.

    I am, however, willing to give strong consideration to the possibility that Covid-19 is manageable via firm and ***competently-administered*** public health measures without going as insane as (say) Australia has done.

    I’m obviously interested in CFR in countries where I think there is less tendency to over- or under-attribute deaths to Covid — most of these will be outside the West and even more so outside the Anglosphere.

    The simple fact is that the Covid Delta found its way into not-vaxed and we think negotiable acquired immunity Taiwan back in May, shot up like a rocket, and was then rapidly brought back under control without mass lockdowns and job losses. The Diplomat is a GloboHomo operation so is going to be pushing the whole Open Society FTW angle on any good news out of Taiwan. Still stripped of all the ideological guff, it’s Data.

    I’m a bit like Deng Xiaoping in this. I don’t care what colour the cat is so long as it catches mice. Watching Vietnam daily to see how long their wave lasts. Ditto Thailand. Both have Delta hitting populations spared from earlier waves. VN locks down neighbourhoods and does quarantine rather efficiently. Thailand a bit more sloppy about these measures.

  47. “Zaphod, he makes the claim that he is aware of 32 patients dying immediately after and because of taking the vaccine.” Xylourgos

    I only watched it once but what I heard is very few (can’t remember the number) of elderly died prior to the vaccine roll out but afterward 32 died who had been vaccinated.

  48. ,”Hell, the global ‘elite’ are on board with seriously reducing the population. Say “climate change” to them and watch the crazed gleam appear in their eyes.”

    Via waxxines and healthcare, gates and others said they willbreduce human pop by x percentage.

    Humanity fell for it.

  49. And that nurse’s account at the hospital he works at in Honolulu matches that of my friend’s sister-in-law, a recently retired ICU nurse here in So Cal. The hospitals made bank changing the records, even of people that were not tested for COVID. Why would we think there is any integrity in the institutions of our government and the many corporations after what we have witnessed in plain sight from the moment of Trump’s presidency?

  50. neo @ 6:57am et alia,

    I think all of his statements and your conjectures can be correct. Or, more specifically, his numbers can be correct, but his speculation may not be.

    It’s unlikely he is lying about the policy; how patients were diagnosed and treated. He gives his name, where he works… He could simply be a liar, but if he’s lying about the facility’s policies that lie won’t travel far based on all the details he provides, and he seems unafraid of being very specific. Surely his co-workers or facility management will quickly refute what he states about policies and provide paper evidence, if he is lying.

    But his assumptions of how or why some folks died or didn’t die are likely not 100% accurate. He’s not a pathologist, and cause of death can be a tricky thing in the elderly, or among folks with co-morbidities. Heck, look at George Floyd.

    He likely knows a fair amount of the patients well from treating them, and from what he hears from his co-workers and sees on their charts, but actual cause of death? My assumption on the post vaccine deaths was similar to what Zaphod wrote; or, just bad luck. If you do anything to a large enough sample of people already beyond their life expectancy some number of them will die in the next week, month… We see a similar psychology among many anti-vaxxers. If you give a cocktail of vaccines to enough infants, a certain number of them are going to show symptoms of Autism around ages 2 – 3. The science does not indicate the vaccines are a cause, but for parents with children who appeared healthy pre-vaccine and then develop Autism after*, many cannot believe the vaccines were not a factor.

    It does seem risky to give a vaccine that often has flu-like side effects to people so fragile from age related illnesses that a flu may kill them, but in a pandemic with a very contagious virus one can understand taking that chance. Better to do the exposure in a controlled setting than leave it to random chance?

    *It is one of the cruelest aspects of Autism that it often shows up between 18 and 36 months and children who appeared to be completely normal in their development appear to regress, and lose abilities they appeared to have prior.

  51. As an unvaxxed person who is currently being scapegoated regarding the transmission of the current variant, I point you to this article from a science publication wherein the Moderna medical officer states the following:

    “Ideally, you want an antiviral vaccine to do two things . . . first, reduce the likelihood you will get severely ill and go to the hospital, and two, prevent infection and therefore interrupt disease transmission.”7″Yet the current phase III trials are not actually set up to prove either (table 1). None of the trials currently under way are designed to detect a reduction in any serious outcome such as hospital admissions, use of intensive care, or deaths. Nor are the vaccines being studied to determine whether they can interrupt transmission of the virus.””Our trial will not demonstrate prevention of transmission,” Zaks said…” (Chief Medical Officer at Moderna)

    https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4037

  52. Zaphod,

    “How many actual Chinese do you know? Read much Chinese history?”

    Ah, the logical fallacy known as an “Appeal to Authority”.

    “You don’t have to be an expert on China to figure out what they’re about, you just have to be able to read the writing on the wall and the tools to do that are to apply common sense in observing what they’re doing.”

    “How do you see your Degraded and now Mongrel Polity putting in another 250 years to make it to a quarter (conservatively) of what the Chinese have managed?”

    Degraded I can certainly agree with but “Mongrel Polity”? That’s a bit of blatant racism. Ignorance and mistaken altruism are not evidence of a society with degraded genetics.

    Nor does the China of today bear any political relationship to the China prior to 1948. Communism required a clean break with the past, thus China’s 60-100 million dead and its Red Guard movement.

    “Kvetching about the Chinks is a cope.”

    No, it’s an observation. In no way have I or am I pointing to China as a defense against the current ills in America. That’s a strawman argument.

    The Chinese people give more thought to themselves than they give to us. Xi and the top CCP leadership have given and are giving a serious amount of attention to America. It’s nearly the entire focus of their foreign policy because America stands in the way of their agenda.

    We are all flawed but everyone is not an asshole. Projection?

    “The trick is to have yourself be governed by your assholes and not Globohomo assholes who want you dead. On balance China has that bit right.”

    No. The trick is to be governed by people who place honor above self-aggrandizement or ideology antithetical to wise governance.

    The CCP is doing what is best for China’s advancement to global governance. They could care less about the cogs in their wheel. They’d happily sacrifice a billion if they were convinced that it would hand them the world.

    No, our ‘rulers’ do not want all of us dead. Only those who present a significant threat. If too many are dead, who will wash and maintain their cars or fix the plumbing? Wait upon them in restaurants?

    Frankly, I could care less if I lose ‘credibility’ with those who view China through rose colored glasses. News flash! If Confucianism posed any contradiction to the CCP’s Marxism, it would have been strangled in its crib. The CCP uses Chinese nationalism as a tool to further its Marxist agenda.

    It doesn’t matter that what it says on the box and what’s in the box differ, the smell of caca is an unmistakable indication of what’s in the box.

    “as silly as thinking that you live in a Constitutional Republic with Separation of Powers.”

    That our Constitutional Republic’s “Separation of Powers” has been corrupted is not evidence of the principles of which it is comprised being flawed. In fact, the corruption demonstrates the validity of those principles because they have to lie to promote that corruption.

  53. Regarding other countries and their numbers…

    Last spring a lot of Neo’s posts and comment discussion revolved around data we were all culling from various sources and early on many of us were speculating that there is something about this virus’ impact and how it runs its course that seemed related to latitude and, likely climate. Even without data that seems rather likely. Some folks think the correlation may be vitamin D amounts from sun exposure, more folks being inside in enclosed spaces during crummy weather, virus lifecycle when exposed to UV rays…

    Add to that genetic factors and herd immunity to other, similar virii. Do some Asian populations have more natural immunity due to Corona virii being more prevalent in their regions longer? Are there some genetic markers that may put some populations at higher or lower risk of illness and death? Seems very likely.

    While it’s a valid exercise to compare different approaches to mitigation and prevention; extent of lockdowns, travel bans, masking… There are almost certainly elements beyond any governments’ control that contribute to a population’s reaction to exposure to COVID-19.

    The post on Sarah Hoyt’s page from the expat in Japan someone recently posted was interesting. Japan has a high percentage of elderly compared to most nations, yet their elderly appear to be fairing rather well in the face of COVID. Interesting…

  54. Here’s Larry Brillilant, one of the doctors involved in the final big push to eradicate smallpox, on Covid Delta:
    ________________________________________

    Brilliant said his models on the Covid outbreak in San Francisco and New York predict an “inverted V-shape epidemic curve.” That implies that infections increase very quickly, but would also decline rapidly, he explained.

    If the prediction turns out be true, it means that the delta variant spreads so quickly that “it basically runs out of candidates” to infect, explained Brilliant.

    There appears to be a similar pattern in the U.K. and India, where the spread of the delta variant has receded from recent highs.

    https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/09/covid-epidemiologist-larry-brilliant-on-delta-variant-vaccinations.html

  55. Geoffrey Britain:

    Glad to see your response to Z the fan of Xi did not get lost.

    He loves to wade into the night soil and sling it about. An appeaser at best, no fan of individual autonomy. Freedom is an anomaly and he has no use for it.

  56. Sharon W.,

    I understand your frustration. I have tried to remain polite, but I am one of only a very few people most my family and friends know who had a somewhat serious case of COVID and far too many of them think they are experts in virology and don’t miss a chance to chastise me for not yet taking the vaccine.

    If I had not gotten COVID I almost certainly would have gotten vaccinated months ago. From what I see of the data I think that would have been the proper course for me. Early on I did not take a slot since I figured I had some natural immunity and it was more important that those at higher risk had access to, what was, a limited supply of vaccine.

    In the interim data seems to be more and more promising that natural immunity is easily as good as any of the available vaccines and may be much better, especially against new variants. And, natural immunity is lasting much longer than originally predicted. Anecdotally, I feel fantastic and have felt very good ever since recovering from COVID 13 months ago.

    And when people chastise me I’ll cite studies like the one from the Cleveland Clinic or the recent study in Israel. My accusers have no knowledge of those studies, but they do know I am unclean and an apostate and no amount of data sways them from their judgement. It is very frustrating.

    With some who question me I’ll reply, “I got vaccinated the hard way; I recovered from COVID.” In an attempt to get them to understand, through humor, and that sometimes works.

  57. “…unclean…”

    Yes, there is a lot of disinformation and misinformation that has been promulgated by government agencies and parroted by the corrupt media. So that the person in the street may well be led to believe that they understand what’s going on.

    But all they “understand” is what the minders want them to “know”.

    Evil stuff (but if not evil, then certainly wicked).

    And yet, something tells me that the Truth Will Out, especially on the topic of natural immunity.

    I hope so, at least. But even if that’s the case, the question becomes, will it influence in any way, this mad policy regarding the “need” for everyone (with no exceptions) to be vaccinated. That is, the “either get vaccinated or else!” policy….

    Maybe more virologists will have to step up; but will their opinions necessarily be reported accurately and will they end up having to pay a price for their forthrightness (and courage)?

  58. huxley,

    Thanks for that link. I hesitated to post the video since I wasn’t yet sure Mr. Aguirre was who and what he claimed to be. I appreciate knowing that at least his claims about his name and resume pan out.

    I do think it’s unwise to state the vaccines are causing more death among the elderly than COVID. It may be his opinion from what he’s seen, but as I wrote earlier, cause of death can be tricky within a very elderly population. How many of his vaccinated patients would have died in the ensuing weeks of months if the vaccine and COVID did not even exist?

    His statements about his facility’s policies, procedures and statistics are what I found most interesting.

    My wife is also an Occupational Therapist and her reaction was, “This guy’s going to lose his job.”

  59. Barry Meislin,

    As I wrote earlier in the week on a prior post, if the theories put forth by Israel from their recent data are correct, then we are doing harm by insisting healthy folks under the age of 30 get vaccinated; especially young folks attending College, High School and Grammar School. I don’t know which is the correct course of action, but far too many people seem far too certain in the face of relevant data.

    It is fascinating that many of the folks vocally vilifying the unvaccinated would also be completely against any type of public “passport” denoting HIV status. It’s almost as if their main animus is the vilification of a group, rather than consistency on public health policy.

  60. Rufus T. Firefly:

    I wouldn’t have gotten the vaxx either if I had already been infected.

    The authorities really botched their messaging throughout Covid. It seemed to be a combination of politics and incompetence.

    I think I ended up too skeptical but I don’t blame myself.

  61. What is the dosage for ivermectin for a human. My horses get 1 ml per 22 lbs. Asking for a friend.

  62. It is fascinating that many of the folks vocally vilifying the unvaccinated would also be completely against any type of public “passport” denoting HIV status. It’s almost as if their main animus is the vilification of a group, rather than consistency on public health policy.

    Rufus T. Firefly:

    I have a cafe friend I run into every couple weeks. She never fails to bring up the unvaccinated, but she’s only talking about white conservatives. She doesn’t want to talk about the high numbers of unvaxxed blacks.

    Mark Hamill (Luke Skywalker) got caught on Twitter agreeing that everyone ought to have vaxx papers to vote! Of course, a regular photo id that everyone carries is completely different.

    Never mind too that the current CDC vaxx cerfiticate would be pitifully easy to counterfeit.

  63. “…many of the folks vocally vilifying the unvaccinated would also be completely against any type of public “passport” denoting HIV status.”

    Yes, those promoting the vaccine (by vilifying the unvaccinated) would be totally IN FAVOR OF a Covid passport.

    At the same time, such a passport—unless the “one size fits all/no exceptions” rules and policy will change to fit “the science”—will EXCLUDE those with natural immunity, which is absurd.

    But as Huxley mentioned, such a passport would be easy to forge (and has been already in many instances over many locales and countries).

    Notwithstanding the whole idea of such a passport is degrading and indecent.

    Most importantly, given the nature of the Delta variant and the expectations regarding further variants (e.g., “lambda”), such a passport would be UTTERLY USELESS from a practical point of view.

    But maybe, just maybe sense will prevail…though this is unlikely because it is CONTRARY to the necessary politically-motivated Narrative…and the elite’s need for control at any cost.

  64. Ronbert,

    Useful info at this website.

    “The first step to getting an ivermectin prescription is consulting a medical provider. The ultimate dosage of ivermectin prescribed depends on the judgement of the medical provider.

    People who need an ivermectin prescription, however, can connect with a licensed medical provider using Push Health who can prescribe ivermectin medication for humans, including generic ivermectin cream and ivermectin 3 mg tablets, when appropriate to do so.”

    https://www.pushhealth.com/drugs/ivermectin?gakey=&gclid=CjwKCAjw87SHBhBiEiwAukSeUdjdsfKE-zQaIhfT1s-R9DF9KQf4l8JN_luk0V872CgU-erUMZMAGhoC5AAQAvD_BwE

  65. Perhaps WHO has always been an iffy, politicized organization.

    However, it seems to me that once upon a time, like back in the 70s eradicating smallpox, they were doing Good Work and the rot set in later.

    Likewise our own CDC before their mission creep began to include gun control and racism issues.

  66. om,

    I’m not quite ready to characterize Zaphod as do you but his last comment gave me pause. When challenged, he defaulted to logically flawed argumentation. I don’t mind his blunt commentary and certainly not a different viewpoint but resorting to appeals to authority, strawman argumentation and racist assertions in an attempt to prove himself in the right is, at best illegitimate.

  67. Ronbert,

    Heather Heying and Bret Weinstein are both believers in the efficacy of Ivermectin and discuss it frequently on their “Darkhorse” podcast.

    https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/bret-weinstein-darkhorse-podcast/id1471581521

    I don’t recall exact episodes where they went into it in the most detail (but I have heard them do it in at least two). Based on descriptions, episodes 87 and 90 are likely candidates. I believe they and their children are on daily, prophylactic doses and I’m almost certain I’ve heard them mention how much they take.

    Their shows tend to be long and I apologize I can’t be more specific, but I’ve only listened to about 5 episodes and don’t recall which ones had the most Ivermectin data, or at what point in the episodes Ivermectin was discussed.

  68. Geoffrey Britain,

    Most all Zaphod’s arguments appear to have “blood and soil” as the foundation. The reason I gave up on that line of reasoning long ago was I found there is a foundation supporting it that basically amounts to; “Why bother?”

    Painting all of humanity with broad brushes based on observable phenotypes seems like a boring way to go through life and I’ve seen far too many great men and women alter their destiny to ascribe to genetic fatalism.

  69. huxley,

    I think so too. I suspect that the rot started to set in with the election of Carter. That probably applies not just to the UN but our federal departments as well. Carter’s Civil Service Reform Act of 1978 gave bargaining power to federal employee unions.

    “Carter intended for the act to create more bureaucratic officials involved with policy making…”

    “All Government employees should realize that the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service.” Franklin D. Roosevelt

    Federal Employee Unions are huge donors to the democrat party and act as ‘volunteer’ campaign troops.

  70. Boiling down the Z.

    “Blood and soil” like “true communism” has never been tried, or maybe not.

    And the CCP will evolve into a pragmatic, beneficent form of government, or at least as beneficent as the subjects deserve.

    What “works” is all that counts after all, citing “History!,” and “Science!”

  71. I didn’t feel the Hawaiian guy claimed an exact number of deaths of his patients from vaxx. I understood him to say a number of elderly died soon after the Stab and he assumed it was related. At least for some, and that number larger than real Covid deaths.
    Maybe I need to go back and re listen

  72. JimNorCal:

    He said that previously only 12 had died and they didn’t die of COVID. He said that 32 had died shortly after getting their shot, and he seemed to link that causally to the shot. That was the comparison he made. I’m doing this from memory, though.

  73. Rufus – I am NOT an occupational therapist, and MY reaction was, “This guy’s going to lose his job.”
    Still, I am glad he spoke out, and that the Hawaii Free News published it.

    However, on the report huxley linked, it says “Mr. Aguirre states that he has reached out to politicians to expose this fraud, including the Governor of Hawaii, and their response is silence. Not one of them has responded.”

    — so he’s already on somebody’s cancellation list; it’s only a matter of time.

  74. On the Invercetin, it may pay to ask for it by name from your doctor, if they do not immediately prescribe it.

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