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Home » What if the 2020 election audits end up revealing that Trump was actually the winner?

What if the 2020 election audits end up revealing that Trump was actually the winner?

The New Neo Posted on by

In this American Thinker article, Andrew W. Coy points out that the Constitution is silent on the question of what would happen if, after a president has been declared the winner and taken office, it was discovered that he or she won through election fraud.

I have long thought that in such a scenario there would be no remedy that would undo the wrong. The remedy for such fraud after the person is already in office is to convict the perpetrators of fraud and to either fine them or send them to prison, or both.

Also, fraud is usually found in small, local elections, and it is difficult to prove even then. Nor does it need to have affected or changed the results of an election in order to be actionable fraud. Proving that without the fraud the results would have been different is even more difficult. But that is the situation that those challenging the idea that fraud occurred in 2020 would have the Trump-supporters prove in order to have any credibility at all, and even then it wouldn’t reverse things.

What might the now-ongoing audits show? Even with proof of huge errors and/or misconduct involving enough votes to have changed things, it would remain difficult to prove that those errors or that misconduct actually did change the results. Difficult, but not impossible. More likely, irregularities uncovered by any auditIt would only reveal that Trump might have otherwise won. But, as I stated earlier, I believe that the only remedy at that point would be a conviction for fraud of those who submitted fraudulent ballots (for example). However, it might be difficult to locate the perps, or to tell who it was who allowed bad signatures (to take another example). No one is going to imprison the whole vote-counting team at a certain site.

This is why fraud is so very tempting. This is why prevention is the only answer. If significant fraud is found to have occurred in 2020 – and if the media and social media don’t manage to cover up the news – at the very least it would strengthen the case for states’ passing laws that put in place tighter controls to prevent fraud in the future. And that’s about all it would do, I’m afraid. Would it anger the right even further than they’re angered now? I’m not sure, because the right is pretty angry already.

Comments

What if the 2020 election audits end up revealing that Trump was actually the winner? — 90 Comments

  1. As you say, if it is shown that Trump *might* have won, it’s highly unlikely to result in much of anything tangible initially. There would be more state level efforts to tighten election security. Beyond that, it’s difficult to say for certain what the longer term ramifications might be.

    Would the general attitudes of the low information voters towards the Democrat party be effected much? Would they even learn about it? Would the mainstream media and social media information gatekeepers be able to fully suppress and contain such revelations, or failing that reduce them to “right wing conspiracy theories”? It seems somewhat unlikely since it’d be such a huge story, but it’s hard to say for certain.

  2. I believe the Democrats have had sufficient success with the ‘Go Big’ strategy over the past 5 years that they thought it was worth the risk, knowing the courts, the media, and the Big Tech censorship functions as they do. After all (for example), they used it on the Hunter Biden laptop story with great success, didn’t they?

    The coordination started with Marc Elias and Lawfare and the judges early in the year, laying the ground work with cooperating state Legislatures. It would not surprise me in the least to discover well-coordinated, highly organized ballot fraud running all the way through election week. It would not surprise me at all to learn that it was sloppily managed, and that the mess went largely unexamined by people who should have had a vested interest in exposing it. It’s going to be very interesting hearing what the Arizona audit reveals.

    But nothing is going to reverse the election, and to be honest, I prefer it that way. Let The People watch the government that cheated its way in, over the next few years. Let all of us watch the pot as we ourselves stew, with frequent, humiliating basting to the elected, preparing the dish for 2022.

  3. You are correct that it would like be impossible to remove Biden and Harris by any judicial or political process before the next election.

    What it would do is remove any pretense of legitimacy from the regime. Basically, those who oppose the Democrats would cease cooperating in any way where there is no legal compulsion. Civil disobedience in many areas, noncompliance with laws that are difficult, if not impossible, to enforce without public cooperation. Harassment of public officials who try to carry out Biden/Harris ukases. Refusal to speak with anyone connected with the federal government without a court order, and then only within the exact limits of the order. Refusal to enlist in the military or to remain on active duty beyond legal commitments. Questioning any orders not manifestly legal, complaining to the inspector general at every turn. Turning their own bureaucracy against them. Refusal to do business with the federal government.

    And, of course, it would probably mean tightening election laws in every state not run by Demcrats (and perhaps even in some of them) and election of more Republicans locally and to congress.

  4. Run on impeachment of the president, Vice President, and all Supreme Court justices that refused standing of the lawsuits. Impeachment of every judge appointed by the fraudulent president. If that doesn’t work, go for secession. But start secession in the meantime, as it took the UK 5 years to leave the EU AFTER they voted for leaving.

  5. Regardless of the outcome, we must insist on election integrity or our system of government will collapse.

  7. For me the the question still is if not some high power pulling it off what made multiple states stop the count yet continue to pull votes so heavily in favor of Sundowner out of thin air?
    I would think their impeachment wouldn’t happen even if in next months 4 states overturned their elections and Congress wouldn’t do it evenly divided.

  8. Biden will be the place holders for another 3+ years, so we have to get over it. The State and Local elections which might have be won by Dems by fraud are another story. Those elections can be invalidated and overturned by these results. Remember, it will only take one Senate election (John James, Jr. lost over night after he was up 5% before the Republican poll watchers and press were kicked out) to take the Senate, and only a handful of House seats to remove Pelosi. That’s the bigger threat.

  9. Rcca wrote, “Regardless of the outcome, we must insist on election integrity or our system of government will collapse.”

    Rcca, not to pick on you specifically, but …

    I’ve heard “the straw that broke the camel’s back” so many times, that I have enough straw to put a thatched roof on the Astrodome.

  11. My operative theory on the fraud has been this from day after the election- the ballots exist for essentially every vote Biden and Trump received. Counts and recounts will not change the vote totals.

    The audits have to examine the signatures used to verify the mail-in-ballots- that is where the Democrats committed the fraud. The urban and suburban counties saturated the ground with excess mail-in-ballots. That excess was vacuumed up by operatives on the ground when needed- it is not nothing the various proven accounts of rental addresses receiving ballots for every person who lived at the address in the past and present. It is possible that late in the evening on election day that the Democrats began to believe they hadn’t cheated enough, and brought in/created additional ballots to count, and that the counts were stopped because a gap in time is easier to explain if you stop things before the original batches of ballots have been fully counted- in other words, you claim you stopped with hundreds of thousands of ballots still left to count, not that you suddenly found tens/hundreds of thousands of ballots once you were done counting.

  12. Stealing an election is the perfect crime. Judges are very, very reluctant to get involved. It happens very fast. And, as neo has noted, how can you prove that the fraudulent votes were all cast for Biden? You can’t.

    But maybe it would be a good idea to have a federal police force who could look into and investigate important national crimes. Call it the Federal Bureau of Criminal Investigations. FBCI.

    I also note that the Dems NEVER talk about this. Better than the Mafia.

    As a side note, Mike Lindell (the My Pillow guy) has said that on a date certain that SCOTUS will install Trump as POTUS. What a fool. He’s like the clowns who say the world is going to end on a date certain and then when it doesn’t happen they look like an idiot. Like Al Gore and all the Greens who predicted we’d be burned up and NYC would be under water by now.

  13. The thing that makes me so mad about the 2020 election is that both Trump and the RNC didn’t prepare for the cheating that they knew was coming. The Dems planned and schemed for months; just look at PA. And then Trump put Rudy in charge and it was a cluster.

  14. Cornhead:

    Was Trump’s delima with Rudy a choice of trustworthy but past his pull date (no longer competent for the challenge) vs some competent but untrustworthy unknown? And then there were the swampers of the DOJ (Barr etc.) that were worse than useless, and swampers in the other alphabet agencies who continue to do what they will, unimpeeded.

  15. om:

    According to Patrick Byrne’s book, he had a solid plan to stop the steal but Trump wouldn’t pull the trigger.

    My big point is that Trump should have been preparing for months to stop the steal. Bad management.

  16. DanJ1

    What happened to John James Jr. was blatantly fraud. When over a 100,000 votes suddenly appeared out of thin air from one city, the incumbent Michigan Senator’s reaction was overly confident and a lot like high school.

  17. Just waitaminnit. We have national vote fraud in electing POTUS, the “Leader of the Free World”, and there is nothing to be done about that?
    I cannot accept that thesis. With that attitude, the USA is over, finished, and done with.

    Yeah, and let us just blame Trump for the criminal acts of others. Easy-peazy! What was he supposed to have done to prevent the political seizure of our country when the states are each in charge of their own in-state voting?

    I have long thought the two years till Nov 2022 will give the Dems time to hone their errors in fraud, eliminate their electoral vulnerabilities, and proceed to another electoral triumph. And another, then another. Voting will be on the same level as in the old USSR. “It’s who counts the votes” that matters, said Uncle Joe Stalin.

  18. I agree with CatoRenasci that if the 2020 election audits end up revealing that Trump was actually the winner it would remove all legitimacy for the regime… on the right. But not for those who voted for Biden. Because being on the right side (their side) is more important than having an honestly conducted election.

    So filled with ideological fervor are they that the long term monumental counterproductivness of that for them is entirely beyond their grasp.

    I do think it would result in far more civil disobedience from the right but as civil disobedience by deplorables is never justified, extreme examples would have to be made.

    Which would ratchet Americans further toward civil war.

    TJ is right that “battle lines are being drawn” we all know that it’s the left that is forcing confrontation upon us. The activist left wants that confrontation, certain that their compliant federales will crush the deplorables.

    “Ashli Babbit got what she deserved” They really want us to get what we deserve as well.

  19. Cicero,

    When the leftist mafia is essentially in control of the justice system, it’s a virtual certainty that nothing of substance will be done. Regardless of how criminal the means, they deserved to win. Democracy itself was at stake!

  21. Trump had several “White Shoe” firms lined up to represent him. They bailed after the election because their other corporate clients blackmailed them.
    Despicable.
    Rudy was mostly fighting for time. He didn’t have any backup and was waiting for the cavalry, which never showed up.

  22. @Cicero:

    “Just waitaminnit. We have national vote fraud in electing POTUS, the “Leader of the Free World”, and there is nothing to be done about that?
    I cannot accept that thesis. With that attitude, the USA is over, finished, and done with.”

    Slowly, we begin to make progress. You’re onto something here. Yes…. yes…

    Lassitude… It’s too hard. It’s too complex… It’s too nuanced… We need to consult all the stakeholders… You’re the infringing Civil Rights of someone somewhere.

    With a Whimper and not a Bang. Well maybe there will be some Bangs… but a shit ton of Whimpering first.

    Frankly, the West in its present incarnation *is* Finished. Its institutions are hopelessly corrupt *and* simultaneously sclerotic. Its ‘Conservatives’ who can dimly sense that Something Is Wrong cling to useless old nostrums for a type of people which no-longer exists and which are well past their use-by date.

    Momentum carried you through the apogee on July 20, 1969. But it was already well over even then.. just none of us knew it.

    The trick is to let go of the ego and understand that the existence of US Gov and all the stuff that Public School Civics hammered into your impressionable little young brains so long ago has precisely zero bearing upon your true self-worth and purpose in this life. Beyond that, if you’re going to Build Back Better (heh)… it *will* take generations, and the blueprints cannot be those musty old ones which have failed you so badly (Did you seriously think that parchment, brass bands, marble, bunting could protect you from yourselves? Quaint!).

    Best take a good hard look around yourselves at the world as it is and the people as they are and begin to devise new ways of living and self-governing — if self-government is what you really want.

    As for the ‘Election’. Zed’s Dead, Baby. Zed’s Dead.

  23. I agree that once certified it is impossible to change the election by legal, constitutional means. Who would have thought that to start with the states voting laws could be illegally and unconstitutionally changed like they were and our courts would remain cowardly and silent. But with 923 witnesses to the fraud, no one to my knowledge has been arrested, but some of the witnesses are being harassed or worse. Consequences are needed or it will continue.

  24. @Zaphod:
    You are 110% correct. At Constitution time, the Founders assumed a population of pretty self-sufficient farmers who had some education and believed in a God. Now we have atheistic ignorati who get doles from DC and watch Sunday football while guzzling beer. What good are families anyway?
    The old ways are gone forever. I disagree it will take generations to birth a new America, though. Once it is gone, the USA will just be another grubby nation in servitude to the CCP; America will never return in any useful form. If nothing else, China will not allow it.

  25. A Stolen Election right before our eyes.
    This statement is true.

    I believe what Boatbuilder states is true: I recall the news stories of law firms lined up, then bailing because of Leftist threats and intimidation.

    Rudy was the loyal backup that was available; the Left played oppo confusion like a fiddle, intimidating Pubbies into treason against their Oath’s of Office like wimpering puppies after the Reichstag Fire Day.

    So “WHAT ‘CHA GONNA DO ABOUT IT?” mafia tactics ruled the day.

    The only back up plan after that was Lt. Gen. Flynn’s national emergency followed by a revote – and I can’t see how that passes any Constitutional muster. There’s no US precedent that I’m aware of, only those abroad.

    Freedom demands our blood – and our bloodletting.

    After battle lines are drawn and people sort themselves out consciously, then we await the New Boston Massacre to galvanize mass populist resistance! The Fake President’s (including those in waiting) Must Go!

    And does this happen only after the Audit/Xi-den delegitimization reveal happens?

  26. Comment I made over at:

    https://meaninginhistory.blogspot.com/2021/07/blockbust-dialog-between-tucker-and-gg.html?showComment=1625851662009&m=1#c2784929659983097523

    From a video:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpFG_qaTrgE
    starting from 42 minutes.

    I had no idea it was this bad, and I thought it was bad.

    Barnes alleges:

    1. that Barr had video proof of ballot stuffing, in a state ballot harvesting via banned, and deliberately suppressed that.

    2. That Barr’s Father write a Sci Fi novel with underage rape. And hired Epstein.

    3. Bush Sr. Funeral was used to push Barr, by Bush 2.

    4. Barr did an amazing job of gas lighting Trump. Lots of smoke, no action besides closing the mueller investigation. Leaks were used to make it appear lots of action was happening behind the scenes. Barr used the excuse of impartiality and restoring the Doj as a reason to ignore specific requests from the Trump WH to investigate voter fraud.

    5. Durham has a history of burying politically hot potatoes. Whitey Bulgar was only investigated because he was already outed. He investigated cia torture at Guantanamo and white washed it.

    6. Guilliani did not know election law and took Barnes ideas and made it appear to Trump he was an expert. And later got bad advice, that led him into problems. Combine this the portrait from Patrick Byrne.

    7. Trump was surrounded with his election counsel that seem to be deliberately ineffective.

    8. Bill Barr oped on Mueller was aimed at Trump.

    9. There was a huge campaign when Barr was nominated to keep conservatives from criticizing him. To do so would be attacking Trump…

    10. Barr suppressed information on the Hunter Biden investigation, and kept it from leaking.

    11. Book deals, such as Barr’s and the Obama’s, are used as political payoffs.

  27. @Cicero:

    Despair is a Sin.

    I don’t despair. I’m a Pessimist. Folks Seriously infected with the Poz would call me a Nazi. Folks more mildly-infected might say Cynic. Heh.

    I am supposed to be the China Fanboy around here, according to some. But I’m not. I’m just interested in avoiding a new Dark Age. Someone has to hold the torch for a while.

    China will have its Place in the Sun for a while. Nothing lasts forever. Their up-cycle will last a bit longer this time because the West is setting such a terrible counter-example right now which will inoculate several generations of Chinese against the GloboHomo Poz (cf. term ‘Baizuo’ == ‘White Left’ == Woke ~= Red Guard). But in the end, some as yet unfathomable bunch of Contradictions will do for them, too for a while. Perhaps Demographics (the Women Problem)… but something will.

    Until then… We must cultivate our gardens. And booby trap the garden walls with Claymores. And we ought not take planting advice from Lysenkos the way we spent last few generations having our politics policed by… ideologues with foreign agendas.

  28. My take:

    Trump had no idea the voting fraud would be this bad. His margins were enough for the expected level of voter fraud. He was basically dunking the ball at the end.

    The GOPe was in on the fraud, and aided and abetted it. Trump was surrounded by GOPe that counseled him it was impossible to fight the fraud after the fact. And before the fact they deliberately dropped the ball.

    Note how Ga Secretary of State has a brother working for A Chinese Company, and how he signed a consent decree with Stacy Abrams to allow more voting irregularities. And Ga Governor went along with this.

    And how McCain disciples did something similar in Az.

    And how timid the GOPe has been about any accusations of voter fraud by Trump.

    And how the judicial system dodged the issue, especially Scotus.

    I wish there was a way for Trump to be reinstated, I just don’t see it. In a non partisan, fair world there would be, unfortunately too many in Congress of both parties are happy Trump is gone.

  29. The Overton Window on 2020 Fraud is shifting.

    Democrats, and their allies in Big Tech and the Media are terrified of this. As the window shifts, their credibility is plummeting in the overall electorate. How much longer will people believe an obviously dementia stricken person won against Trump?

    The left is getting more and more desperate in their reactions, and plus the perceived Covid Emergency ends, crime is rising, uncontrolled border, and inflation. Any questioning of the narrative must be stomped out immediately.

    And Trump is attacking the narrative. And the left is not used to their chosen narrative being questioned. That is why Trump is so dangerous. He is like the little boy who pointed out the emperor has no clothes. The majority of the GOP is too terrified, or bought off, to do this.

    And note Trump is finding ways around the Big Tech and Media Blackout.

    Tucker reading that tweet about the election fraud is a major shift of the Overton Window.

  30. Can Do! says he ain’t a CCP shill and yet he says learn to accept your Han overlords for they deserve their place in the sun. For Can Do is worried about a new dark ages. Only Can Do! is holding that at bay. Selfless sacrifice, to be sure.

    Satire and self parody follows about those who serve foreign interests. Self own, own goal, Can Do!

  31. @om:

    Chill, Old Chap.

    You’re in a forum populated partly by participants who only first realised something was seriously wrong with America when they noticed that their ancestral political party had turned on Israel. So they became Republicans. Now they’re shocked and horrified that the Republican Party is selling out. They’re not bad people, just myopic — and many of them still apparently think that the system can be fixed from within.

    It doesn’t hurt to hold up a variety of mirrors and images of other places and peoples (even their notionally fellow working class Poor White Americans, mayhap) so as to broaden and flesh out the nature of US and Western political and societal dysfunctions.

    Making some points about China is one facet of this. You seem determined not to see.

  32. Can Do! resorts to Brit-speak. Sorry, check your nappies, you ain’t the boss of me.

    Arrogant much to speak for anyone but you, those who come here?

    How’s your social credit score?

  34. How many in Hong Kong have disappeared Can Do? Winnie the PO means well?

    He is keeping the beacon of civilization lit and preventing a Dark Age? Do tell.

  35. Zaphod:

    I find your posts interesting and thought provoking.

    Wish the blog had a troll/stalker blocking feature.

  36. @Wesson:

    Thanks. I’ve no doubt I irritate the hell out of some folks though. And I won’t pretend that I don’t always enjoy doing so.

  37. If it was not so tragic, it would be hilarious how China and Russia are treating the US.

    Compare the Chinese vs US translator at the Alaska meeting’s technical ability for a start. From my Chinese speaking friends purple hair NYU grad lady translation skill was below par…

    And I’m sure Russia and China will find it useful to discredit the 2020 us elections, as if any help was needed.

    https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/07/download-7-copy.jpg?w=640&ssl=1

  38. Zaphod:

    I’ve gotten very tired of you making statements with little to no evidence for them. It’s not a unique thing to you, but you do it so much that it’s almost a signature. You like to goad people, obviously (and it was already quite obvious even before you admitted it).

    I’m referring to comments from you such as this (among many others):

    “you’re in a forum populated partly by participants who only first realised something was seriously wrong with America when they noticed that their ancestral political party had turned on Israel. So they became Republicans.”

    That’s not a significant group of commenters here.

    Your emphasis on identity politics is as extreme or more extreme than any woke social justice warrior of the left. It’s offensive and distorting and simplistic, and all too often incorrect.

  39. @Neo:

    Like it or not, Identity Politics is Out and About. And it’s not going back under the rug or into the Genie Bottle during the remainder of any of our lifetimes. That battle is totally and irrevocably lost. So best get comfy with the new vibe.

    Not that it ever really went away… Just that for a period some were not permitted to play the Identity Game whilst others were awarded cash and prizes and immense, disproportionate and undeserved power for doing so.

    Balance is re-asserting itself.

    Be a Happy Warrior 🙂

  40. “You’re in a forum populated partly by participants who only first realised something was seriously wrong with America when they noticed that their ancestral political party had turned on THE USA.”

    There. Fixed it for ye’.

    (Wish it were more of them, but for some reason, intelligence—or purported intelligence—has nothing to do with wisdom, judgment or discernment or perhaps even decency (alas)…and that, moreover, the “intelligent” are just as susceptible, or perhaps more so(?), to brain-addling propaganda…. Hmmm. Maybe we should hold a Zoom seance and consult Heidegger…. Anyone around here handy with a ouija board?)

  42. @Barry Meislin:

    “Maybe we should hold a Zoom seance and consult Heidegger…. Anyone around here handy with a ouija board?”

    Mine got confiscated when they deciphered the runes on the reverse.

    Failing that, we could attempt to raise his Squeeze who figured out that boring brains into stupefaction was a sure remedy against addling:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannah_Arendt

    It’s not just the Universe is more strange than we can possible conceive. So are we Humans and our mating decisions.

    Zoom Seance with H a Very Bad Idea. Not sure *any* of us want the eavesdropping Chinese getting any more cross-cultural fertilization.

    Carl Schmitt is the flavour of the month right now. Bit more readable. And we Deplorables can’t follow H. Too many big words!

  43. Well it’s true that there’s always the danger that everyone will simply fall asleep…though that might well be an advantage—just as long as we don’t exceed the allotted time period (for Zoom seances) and have to pay for the extra time…. (That would add insult to injury….)

    As far as Arendt is considered it’s not the first time that someone superbly bright has fallen head over heels with a “superior intelligence”—or one’s professor, for that matter. (It rather “proves” one’s own superiority, doesn’t it??…though this may be purely fanciful on my part, since it may have been true love, I suppose, transcending the Platonic variety, that is, if Platonic love can actually be transcended….)

    FWIW, my own pet theory is that her self-confidence was such that she was absolutely sure she could change his “bad habits”…. Though quite possibly she was so sleep-deprived that she welcomed his brooding, soporific talent….

    File under: Go figure….

  45. amr wrote: “I agree that once certified it is impossible to change the election by legal, constitutional means.”

    Of course it’s possible, and the process is pretty simple. If it can be proven beyond a reasonable doubt that Joe Biden stole the election, just follow this legal, constitutional process:

    1) Kamala Harris resigns the vice presidency.

    2) Joe Biden names Donald Trump as his new vice president, and he is approved.

    3) Joe Biden resigns the presidency.

    4) Donald Trump ascends to the presidency.

    5) Donald Trump names Mike Pence as his vice president, and he is approved.

    Why does no one think that the Democrats would co-operate for the good of the country if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they stole the election?

  46. “Why does no one think that the Democrats would co-operate for the good of the country if it is proven beyond a reasonable doubt that they stole the election?”

    Because this episode is not sponsored by Power Milk Biscuits?

    Because All the Children are Not Above Average?

    I dunno. You got me stumped.

  47. Neo:

    I agree that there is no legal (and feasible) way to undo the effects of a stolen national election.

    Let me add, though, that if it’s proven beyond a doubt the 2020 election was stolen, there will be cries for a Constitutional Amendment to get around it. I very much doubt such a thing would pass, and I’m against it anyway.

    Why? Because if a legal means is added to challenge the legitimacy of a Presidential election, even years after the fact, then it will be used every four years henceforth, without fail.

    Impeachment is our only Constitutional recourse, and it’s supposed to be super difficult. The Democrats did themselves no favors by impeaching Trump twice. They tipped their hand — not that it was needed — showing that, if there is a legal means available to discredit a President they don’t like, they’ll use it.

    I argued, in 2018 or earlier, that what the GOP really needed was a sacrificial lamb — some Republican, running for a minor state office, who would cheat so badly, and so blatantly, that he would get Democrats screaming for voter ID and purple fingers.

    I still don’t know why Trump didn’t think of this. Maybe he did, and could not find someone to volunteer for the job.

    What we need now is someone to scream, at the national level, over and over — trust in the system is far, FAR more important than who wins.

    And perhaps we need some grassroots efforts. Perhaps we need a state to overhaul its electoral process, saying: “Call us racists all you want. We will make sure that every legal vote counts, every illegal vote doesn’t, and that you will NEVER need extra transparency from THIS state. We challenge other states to meet the standard we’ve set.”

  48. “…would co-operate…”

    Um, no, they wouldn’t. (Well, they might if they were truly law-abiding and loved the country, I suppose…but…)
    They believe—sorry, they know—that they stole the election (as the saying goes) “fair and square”.
    They also believe—sorry, know—that they have saved the country from the EVIL Trump and from his supporters.

    …which heroism and self-sacrifice gives them the SACRED right and HOLY obligation to destroy the country (along with Trump and his supporters…and anyone who doesn’t support their SACRED and HOLY efforts to grab and hold onto total power forever and ever, AMEN).

    E.g. (and do yer best not to retch): We need to protect the “sacred right to vote” (for the right candidate, that is)….
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/biden-we-need-to-protect-the-sacred-right-to-vote/2021/04/28/6e066666-35cd-4dda-900a-a873a6e05f75_video.html

    So, um, no: they’re not going to give up anything unless they are—somehow—forced to (but they’re currently working all out to cut off that potentially eventuality at the knees; after all, what’s the Constitution good for except to wipe your muddy boots on?…and skewer your perceived enemies with?).

    Moreover, given such “inspired” sacerdotal rhetoric, might one ask whether Church and State are still separate…or whether the Democratic Party’s Fundamentally Transformed(TM) state has BECOME the church….?

  49. “And perhaps we need some grassroots efforts. Perhaps we need a state to overhaul its electoral process, saying: “Call us racists all you want. We will make sure that every legal vote counts, every illegal vote doesn’t, and that you will NEVER need extra transparency from THIS state. We challenge other states to meet the standard we’ve set.”

    It’s certainly worth a try.

    FedGov will take all kinds of reprisals.

    Amazon will refuse to deliver in that state. Other GloboHomo MegaCorps will do similarly illegal and unconstitutional (oh no!) things and get away with them.

    Still worth a try on the off-chance that it might trigger a preference cascade. Half a preference cascade could well trigger The Other Thing.

  50. Zaphod:

    Oh, identity politics is “Out and About”? My goodness, I had no idea!! Thanks so much for letting us all know.

    Yes, that’s sarcasm. Because something is “out and about” doesn’t mean that you should argue from that perspective, in particular when the point you make doesn’t conform to the facts, as I already suggested out in my earlier comment to you.

  51. Yancey:

    “ My operative theory on the fraud has been this from day after the election- the ballots exist for essentially every vote Biden and Trump received. Counts and recounts will not change the vote totals.
    The audits have to examine the signatures used to verify the mail-in-ballots- that is where the Democrats committed the fraud. The urban and suburban counties saturated the ground with excess mail-in-ballots. That excess was vacuumed up by operatives on the ground when needed- it is not nothing the various proven accounts of rental addresses receiving ballots for every person who lived at the address in the past and present. It is possible that late in the evening on election day that the Democrats began to believe they hadn’t cheated enough, and brought in/created additional ballots to count, and that the counts were stopped because a gap in time is easier to explain if you stop things before the original batches of ballots have been fully counted- in other words, you claim you stopped with hundreds of thousands of ballots still left to count, not that you suddenly found tens/hundreds of thousands of ballots once you were done counting.”

    This is where I disagree to some extent. Yes, there was likely the usual sorts of voting irregularities, augmented by a lot of mail in fraud. But that window closed when the polls did on Election Day. Then, as the night wore on, and despite that, Trump was cruising to victory, the Democrats panicked, and pulled the pin. They threw out the Republican poll workers, and started to manufacture votes. And they did it, in those 6 states, until they had won. In GA, we have video of three (identified) people running ballots through 2-3-4 times. In several states, we have evidence of boxes and stacks of ballots being illegally brought in to count. They just kept counting and recounting, until they got Biden ahead.

    I don’t think that we will need signature verification to prove this, because these ballots won’t have any provenance. They were very likely fabricated out of thin air. The early morning the day after the election, they didn’t have time to fabricate provenance. The AZ auditors were looking for very specific indicators of fraud – in particular, they were looking for fraudulent ballots. Not legitimate ballots illegally obtained and voted, but fraudulent physical ballots. They apparently looked for bamboo and watermarks, neither of which should have been present. They looked at folds, because mail in ballots should have a single fold, and direct voted ballots none. Etc. They also physically hand recounted the ballots – because the previous recount merely ran the same stacks of ballots through the same suspect machines, almost guaranteeing a pretty good match. This is where they have been looking, because that is where Biden’s (and probably Kelly’s) margins of victory came from. If they found 100k fraudulent physical ballots, Trump and McSally won. Maybe even if they found far fewer of them, combined with Dominion fraud.

  52. I’m still waiting for some sort of actual proof. Did someone find bamboo fibers? Or the coordinates of the Italian military satellite?

    This has become a joke. Biden won and everyone should deal with it. Just like Trump won in 2016 (and many people did not deal with it).

  53. As I have pointed out in other fora, this would not be the first instance in which the “wrong” guy went to the White House. It’s not even the second or the third.

    In 1820, John Quincy Adams went to the White House after making a deal with one of the other losers after the election failed to produce an electoral college winner and the choice devolved onto the House under the 12th Amendment. The guy who got euchred out of the presidency, Andrew Jackson, and his supporters, spent four years undermining Adams’ legitimacy and defeated Adams in an 1824 rematch.

    In 1876, Rutherford Hayes defeated Samuel Tilden 185-184 in a highly controversial election in which the contested electoral votes in three separate states were all awarded to him by an 8-7 vote of the Congressional committee appointed for that purpose. Hayes was hobbled by the outcome–he was referred to as “His Fraudulency”–and similarly was not reelected.

    In more recent times, we now have substantial evidence that there was widespread fraud in the 1960 election and that Nixon may have actually won enough electoral votes to prevail. But Nixon chose not to contest the election and so the matter has largely been forgotten except among scholars.

    In 1976, Ford lost Ohio and Hawaii to Carter by very narrow margins–a few thousand votes in both cases. Larger margins than Florida 2000 but only just. There is no evidence of hanky-panky but there certainly could have been: had those two states gone the other way, Ford would have won reelection despite losing to Carter in the national popular vote by over a million votes. But the results were–quite properly–certified for Carter and the rest is history.

    Similarly in 2000 there was considerable controversy about the election in Florida due to the extremely close outcome, and there remain many people who still are convinced that Gore actually won Florida–and with it, the election. But even had it been demonstrated that this was the case there would have been no way to overturn the results once the electoral college had met and voted, the votes had been transmitted to Congress, and Congress had certified them.

    So there’s in fact no solution that doesn’t require the kind of contortions that would be entailed by some of the solutions proposed above by other commentators. All the Dems have to do is deny, deny, deny and ignore, ignore, ignore and they can run out the clock.

    Whether that will be enough to keep them in the White House in 2024 is, of course, an entirely different story.

  54. “ More likely, irregularities uncovered by any auditIt would only reveal that Trump might have otherwise won. But, as I stated earlier, I believe that the only remedy at that point would be a conviction for fraud of those who submitted fraudulent ballots (for example). However, it might be difficult to locate the perps, or to tell who it was who allowed bad signatures (to take another example). No one is going to imprison the whole vote-counting team at a certain site.”

    I very much disagree. Seems previous comment above. What seems to be different this time is that fraudulent physical ballots were counted, after the Republican poll watchers and election workers had been excluded. Everyone left counting was in on the fraud. If they weren’t, they would have been excluded too. They saw what was going on, and very likely participated in it. The counting went on at a greatly accelerated rate, now that the Republicans couldn’t watch it closely.

    But on the other hand, who is going to arrest the perps? Certainly not the Feds – the DOJ tried to intervene to prevent the audit in AZ, and no doubt will do so elsewhere. The DOJ reports to AG Garland, nominated by Biden. If Biden was elected through election fraud, both would lose whatever legitimacy they have. The county level is no better, because they are no doubt Democrats too (and at least in AZ, was elected with Soros money, as was the Sheriff). That leaves the state level. Do the Republicans at the state level have the gumption to arrest all of the perps that they can identify, including the head county election officials? Maybe AZ, but I don’t see it elsewhere – too many GOPe.

  55. “ I’m still waiting for some sort of actual proof. Did someone find bamboo fibers? Or the coordinates of the Italian military satellite?”

    The coordinates of the Vatican satellite are known. But I suspect that is an irrelevancy – at best it involves Dominion tweaking election results a bit. I don’t think that is where the major fraud was committed. Rather, the question is what happened starting at maybe 2-3am after the election, when the Republican poll watchers and election workers were sent away, and then hundreds of thousands of votes for Biden, and almost none for Trump, started rolling in. Trump had been ahead, and was easily cruising to victory when it happened, then six states all of a sudden swerved sharply to Biden at about the same time, with electoral votes to spare.

    And, no, we don’t know yet what has been found in AZ. Maybe nothing. But from the way that everyone is acting, on both sides, it appears to be a lot. We just have to be patient.

    And, yes, Biden won. That isn’t the question. Rather the question is whether he won legitimately or not, and if not, can it be proven?

  56. Good thing “room237” has arrived to let us on on the joke. Maybe he/she/them/they/who/zoo and Sir Can Do! will show us the punch line too? It’s clear that we need their help. Western civilization hangs in the balance; a new Darkie Age is looming with the new phenomenon of identity politics. Who knew? Can Do!, that’s who!

    But will XI free Can Do! to save the west from the wurst of democracy?

  57. “ The remedy for such fraud after the person is already in office is to convict the perpetrators of fraud and to either fine them or send them to prison, or both.”

    Oh my sweet, summer child.

  58. @om:

    Keep the Darkies out of it, My Man. All this Open Thread talk of ear worms has primed my suggestibility and now I’ve got #&@$ing Campdown Races looping inside my head. Thanks for nothing!

  59. “In 1876, Rutherford Hayes defeated Samuel Tilden 185-184 in a highly controversial election in which the contested electoral votes in three separate states were all awarded to him by an 8-7 vote of the Congressional committee appointed for that purpose. Hayes was hobbled by the outcome–he was referred to as “His Fraudulency”–and similarly was not reelected. ”

    A bargain was made. Hayes was elected president and ended the Reconstruction of the South. The Democrats were allowed to install Jim Crow and suppress the black vote. The final step was taken by Woodrow Wilson who resegregated the Civil Service and the military.

  60. @BruceHayden:
    “Trump was cruising to victory, the Democrats panicked, and pulled the pin. They threw out the Republican poll workers, and started to manufacture votes.”
    In short, the Dem poll workers committed multiple mass felonies. Yes, they threw out the GOP pollworkers/observers, of that there is no doubt. As you say, we have solid evidence of vote manufacture and multiple counts of the same votes.

    And we are to have any confidence this will not recur? Again and again? That the GOP observers will suddenly turn from lambs into lions?

    That is like the Mensheviks trusting the Bolsheviks. We know how that turned out. Millions of dead Russians, over time, by Bolshie slaughter once the state was firmly in their hands.

  61. Just a minor correction to David’s comment above- Quincy Adams won the 1824 election, and was ousted by Jackson in 1828, not 1820 and 1824.

  62. Can Do!

    Try “Summertime” and the livin is easy …. or

    “They’ve got to be carefully taught.”

    Or something different “Diamonds on the soles of her shoes.”

    Or “Springtime for Hitler and Germany.”

  64. I expect we’d see another round of National Emotional Abuse with the Dems + Media in high dudgeon while claiming they obviously had to rig the election in order to save Our Democracy, because …

    Trump! – Nazi’s everywhere! – Whiteness! – Men so bad!!

    But what I think could really take their legs out is that their corporate bloc would likely need to cease their coordination and explicit ideological enforcement. Their continued support would be seen as an acknowledgement of collusion and endorsement of anti-democratic practices. And that could seriously damage their access to foreign markets. Not simply due to bad PR but at the level of fundamental risk assessments by both sovereign and private entities.

  65. The goal of the Democrat party is to turn America into Venezuela as quickly as possible. They are already spending trillions of dollars to carry out a Cloward-Piven strategy of destroying our nation. They are refusing to enforce THE LAW on the southern border. They are educating our children to hate white people.

    This is not business as usual. Acting as if normal procedures will save our nation — e.g. waiting 4 years and hoping we get an accurate vote count in 2024 — will not work.

  66. The issue is no longer what is Constitutional. The Constitution has been overthrown. We are now back to basic right and wrong, back to the Declaration of Independence. We must execute all who acted to overthrow our Constitution, and then restore it to its proper place. Time for blood.

  67. Look up Writ of Quo Warranto, if the election was fraudulently certified, and indeed possibly even the Senators that voted on certifying electors may not have been lawfully elected, then it was void at the outset.

  68. I’m not schooled in law so the Writ of Quo Warranto is a revelation. Neo, who is legally educated, has not raised this Writ, but perhaps she will comment on it.
    Definition is ” The Writ of Quo-Warranto is the writ which is issued directing subordinate authorities to show under what authority THEY are holding the office. If a person has usurped a public office, the Court may direct him not to carry out any activities in the office or may announce the office to be vacant.”

    So who will issue said Writ, which requires the officeholder to prove they hold the job by what objective evidence?
    It would seem timing is everything: right now, all Biden would need to do is hold up the EC vote.
    It would be a valid and possibly productive endeavor only after the vote in certain states, e.g. AZ, has been overturned, and Biden’s EC victory has been nullified.

    Don’t look to SCOTUS on this, though this is why SCOTUS exists.

  69. It’s important to know the truth about how many ballots fail the “procedures against fraud”.

    Like you say, no way to tell the 90% good from 10% bad/ dirty/ fraud & semi-fraud ballots. If a signature of a valid voter fails to match his prior signature, his vote shouldn’t count – tho in 2020 it mostly was counted. Most, but not all, non-signature matching votes are frauds.

    The GOPe, the leaders of the GOP who are college educated/ indoctrinated, they like Trump’s popularity, but not Trump. And often, not so keen on some policies.

    Trump supporters, working class non-elite, need to take over the GOP, and fight hard for fair elections 2022. That’s the best outcome that seems to have any chance more than 10%, but it’s still less than 50%.

  70. “the Writ of Quo Warranto is a revelation”

    I like revelations. Good Blog!

    I’m not legally schooled (obviously) but how about we have about 600 writs of Mandamus slapped on some tables to get those poor bloody innocent proles betrayed and abandoned to the Fed Wolves on Jan 6 out into the light of day before we get to work on the more abstract stuff?

  71. @om:

    Ever since reaching Enlightenment (heh) I’ve been aware that “They’ve got to be carefully taught.” deliberately gets it backwards because pushing an agenda. One has to be carefully taught to ignore one’s evolved responses.

    Springtime for Hitler is a a bit Gay, don’t you think?

    I prefer Tomorrow Belongs to Me.. but you have to watch out for the key change dissonance Goebbels-grade trickery when it kicks in. Not to mention the graduate seminar level cinematic wizardry happening same time. There were, and to this day still are, far better mind-benders and propagandists than ever Old Clubfoot was 😛

  72. All these lovely old Common Law Writs come from a simpler happier age before Cambrian Explosion of statute and (worse yet) administrative law. Do they even *work* in the current year?

    Serious question. My knowledge less than zero here.

  73. Can Do!:

    A lot of your old timey SA pals were reported to be non-cis as they say today, but I don’t know what tunes you goose step to.

    BTW, the HMS Sheffield was of steel construction. You got that wrong too. Cheers chappie, check your nappies.

    It is funny how a EE software geek pretends to be an evolutionary geneticist and a specialist in human culture. LOL

  74. Bary Meislin wrote: Um, no, they wouldn’t.[co-operate]

    Of course not. It was a rhetorical question. I think we all knew the answer to it even before it was asked, which was my point in asking it.

    I think that that absolutely no one here even considered that Biden and Harris would co-operate is telling. Don’t you?

  75. The United States is supposed to be ruled by consent of the governed, but if you asked the majority of the country doesn’t view the government as a legitimate expression of the will of the people.

    For Americans and those identifying with the historic American nation, a large number of us wish to formally secede. Are we going to have to fight another civil war in order to be able to gain the right to self-determination for our people? What moral right does the (probably illegitimate) government in Washington DC have to deny such a motion? The ideological framework of the current regime doesn’t really have any argument against such an action, except asserting “White people evil,” but even that isn’t a good answer since a consistent framework would encourage separation from those oh-so-evil White people.

    While practically the regime has no ideological means to argue against secession, intuitively we understand that secession is doomed to failure. The US regime would not permit people to leave, and would use all of its resources to subvert self-governance in a secession-state. This behavior is exactly the same as they do in countries across the world (Ukraine, South America, Middle East, etc).

    What people need to understand explicitly is that a person/institution operating in this way is actually capital-E Evil. The US government isn’t morally legitimate when it acts like this, and it is correct and Just to defy and destroy an institution that uses its power to deny others self-determination.

  76. Legitimacy debuts with a bang, which alphabet agency does he work for? Or just a contract employee for Nancy’s police?

  77. Maybe a bit too enthusiastic to begin with, but the broader point is that the legitimacy of the US regime isn’t balanced on the fulcrum of a few thousand votes. The regime has been losing moral authority for a long time by engaging in behavior that correctly leads people to conclude that it’s illegitimate. The election is just the flash of lightning that finally reveals the monster that wears the skin of the legitimate American government.

  79. @Om:

    All’s well that ends well!

    Classic movie. We’d best all pirate it before it’s memory holed.

  80. The United States is supposed to be ruled by consent of the governed, but if you asked the majority of the country doesn’t view the government as a legitimate expression of the will of the people.

    Legitimacy:

    As om said, “debut with a bang”! Welcome aboard.

    Recently I was blathering about “The Greening of America,” a countercultural bible from fifty years ago. Its author, Charles Reich, was from that naive time and had naive solutions in mind. Nonetheless, the problem was evident even then:
    ________________________________________

    The Constitution and Bill of Rights have steadily been weakened. The nation has gradually become a rigid managerial hierarchy, with a small elite and a great mass of disenfranchised. Democracy has rapidly lost ground as power has been increasingly captured by giant managerial institutions and industrial corporations, and decisions have come to he made by experts, specialists, and professionals safely insulated from the feelings of the people. Most governmental power has shifted from Congress to administrative agencies, and corporate power is free to ignore both stockholders and consumers. As regulation and administration have grown, liberty has been eroded and bureaucratic discretion has taken the place of the rule of law.

    –Charles Reich, “The Greening of America” (1970)

  81. PS Lest one assume, fifty years out, that Charles Reich was some hippie mastermind toking up with Timothy Leary and Abbie Hoffman backstage at Woodstock, far from it.

    Reich got his JD from Yale Law, clerked under Justice Hugo Black, and returned to Yale Law as a professor. “Greening” was a cry from his heart.

  82. @Huxley:

    Reich must have read Burnham. Another old Lefty who marched to his own beat and didn’t always follow the crowd.

  83. Reich must have read Burnham.

    Zaphod:

    Probably so. I know Burnham from Orwell’s essay on Burnham’s “The Managerial Revolution”:

    https://orwell.ru/library/reviews/burnham/english/e_burnh.html

    Geez. I’m going to have to read that again! From Orwell I meant to read Burnham in the original, but so many books, so little time.

    I miss how well-read people were once upon a time. Even those on the left. I caught the tail-end of that wave.

    So, Zaphod, what’s your excuse? 🙂

  84. @Huxley:

    We Far Right Baddies love Burnham’s critique of Managerialism. He was still a Marxist when he wrote Managerial Revolution. The thing about old style rigorous Marxists is that while they were wrong about human nature and ‘Not Even Wrong’ about the resource allocation == economic planning problem (There’s a giant Incomputability sized hole in that one)… they were often very good at the dialectical analysis of social classes and how social and power relations worked in reality as opposed to theory — naturally enough as they were looking for chinks in their enemies’s armour. It’s a mistake to throw out the baby with the bath water or to mix these hard-headed bad-ass guys up with stuff the Frankfurt School and later folks made up out of whole cloth. Same applies to various other schools of Bad Guy Thought. There’s always something to learn — even if it’s only what not to do.

    No excuse for once having thought myself well-read except for a mis-spent youth. Once hyperlinks and instant reward became ubiquitous, I’ve lost a lot of my patience for longer works. Not something I’m proud of at all.

  85. Once hyperlinks and instant reward became ubiquitous, I’ve lost a lot of my patience for longer works. Not something I’m proud of at all.

    Zaphod:

    Well, when the appropriate self-help groups form, we may meet, have coffee with bad creamer and cheap tiny cookies, then introduce ourselves.

    “Hi, I’m huxley and I have a short attention span.”

    I don’t understand you Far Right Baddies, but I’m willing to learn.

    My main problem, so far, is I don’t get the whole Jews and Israel angle. I find Unz pretty much unreadable on that account.

  87. If Biden won by 10K votes and 9999 were fraudulent, he still won. If he actually won by fraud it get’s interesting. No so much as who stays in office but about Bills he signed into Law, Appointments, Executive Orders. There is a principal in law that fraud vitiates everything. That is the big question. Does it vitiates all of his orders, laws he signed, the people he appointed to federal jobs?

    I wouldn’t’ be surprised if it came out that the won by fraud he’d get renominated and millions would vote for him. The explanation\excuse would be that Trump was so dangerous to the US that anything was justified to remove him from office. CNN and MSNBC, NYT, etc would pick up the narrative.

  89. Cornhead writes: “As a side note, Mike Lindell (the My Pillow guy) has said that on a date certain that SCOTUS will install Trump as POTUS. What a fool….”

    On Steve Bannon’s Pandemic Warroom podcast, Lindell denies ever specifying a month for this.

    Cornhead — are you sure you aren’t just guilty of taking the Lying Oligarch Media’s word for what Mike Lindell said? I suspect you did. Don’t be an easy Mark — please?

    Lindell knows about Quo Warranties (sp?), and argues that this unprecedented remedy — because used for other elected offices — could allow the SCOTUS to rubber stamp a reversal of President.

    I, however, understand that such doctrine is trumped by the written method of the US Constitution. And therefore, if the Supremes go so far as to review this remedy, would implicitly commend the method mkent discusses in his post above.

    That is, an arduous Constitutional-Legal process of successive resignation and appointment (and Senate approvals) to High Office.

    But this is definitely bound to be further subverted by hyper emotional cry bull Democrats and their Oligarch MediaCommies. They live for these dramas and poisoning our nation in real time, as the Kavanaugh charades proves.

  90. Let me commend the discussion on Charles Reich and his 1970 fame, “The Greening of America.”

    Via Wikipedia, I accessed a 2007 New York Law School Law Review piece by Roger Citron. It’s rather of interest to us, I think, because it shows how autobiographical “Greening” was for him.

    And it might interest our host Neo to reflect on that past era of cultural turn, when revolution was in the air, and institutional distress reached its maximum intensity.

    Two things stand out, after only reading 10 (out of 30) pages. Reich wanted to study sociology but wound up schooled in legal realism. “Greening” really did let him let his hair fly!

    And second, Reich not only clerked with Justice Hugo Black but lived with him!

    One imagines an ongoing legal and social seminar occuring because after Black’s wife died, the family wanted him to have company. And hosting his clerks was the way this came about.

    Anyway, this was Reich’s most intellectually informative moment.

    How does this example bear upon our times? It’s hard to imagine something equally shaping for the young today.

    The spirit of hard thinking is so dead today. But perhaps others will reach a different estimate to analogize?

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