Close harmony: Part IIB (the Bee Gees – how do they make that sound?)
[NOTE: Part I can be found here and Part IIA here.]
As I’ve written before, until recently all I knew about the Bee Gees were a few of their disco-era songs and a vague recollection of longish hair, and I think I knew they wrote their own songs. I kind of liked those disco numbers but thought of them as a forgettable novelty. I was neutral about the group and I hadn’t listened to them in over forty years.
Then I was persuaded by a YouTube suggestion to click on one of their old videos, and was immediately stunned and captivated by the strength and near-hypnotic quality of their harmonies. Maybe their sound seemed so much more powerful now compared to back then because I wasn’t listening to them on a scratchy record anymore; instead, I was using a headset hooked up to a computer. But for whatever reason, this time when I heard the three sing together, it worked on me like a siren song (hopefully, without the rocks), and I wanted to listen over and over. I’d heard lots of harmonic singing and groups before that, but this was the only group that’s ever had that quasi-hypnotic effect on me, and I’ve learned since then that I’m far from alone in that reaction. It’s actually rather common.
What is it about? Do these guys cast spells on some people? And if so, how do they do it?
If all you know of the Bees songs are “Stayin’ Alive” and the other Saturday Night Fever songs – please have a listen to the following, just to take one example of hundreds I could offer. It’s an obscure one at that, a nearly-unknown song from their almost-unnoticed 1974 album “Mr Natural.” Neither the album nor the song was ever popular. It was released during a pre-disco time for the Bee Gees, when their fortunes had sunk quite low after early fame in the late 60s as baroque pop members of the British invasion.
When I came across the title of the song, “Had a Lot of Love Last Night,” it sounded to me as though this would be an upbeat fast-paced song with some sexy overtones. But I was stunned when it began, starting with a wordless “Ah” that sounds like an entire gospel choir. But it’s just the Bee Gees, singing a sublimely bittersweet elegy to love (I suggest headphones for listening):
I’ve read people who have speculated that the Bee Gees’ harmonies tap into something that relaxes the brain and the body, something uniquely soothing. As brothers, the trio’s voices had some genetic similarity and they had sung together since early childhood – but that’s true of the voices of most sibling groups (I wrote about that previously in Part I). However, the Bee Gees had two other characteristics that I believe made them unique even within that subgroup: they also had dramatic vocal distinctiveness from each other that co-existed with that similarity (you can see the same paradox in their looks, too). In addition, two of the brothers – Barry and Robin – were compelling lead singers whose voices were highly unusual and immediately recognizable and easily distinguishable both from each other and from everyone else. The third brother, Maurice, had a less distinctive but still beautiful voice that was a very flexible instrument with wide range, and he could fill in the blanks in whatever manner was required, tonally or otherwise, having a sixth sense of instinctively knowing exactly where to place his harmonies.
The song you just heard featured Barry Gibb – the tall one with the male-model 70s hair and the whitest of teeth – singing the lead in his natural voice. He was later known for his falsetto, of course, but he didn’t just have a single type of falsetto and he only used his falsetto in some of his songs (I’m using the past tense – although he, unlike his brothers, is still alive and still singing).
Barry had a squeaky/shouty falsetto which some people find annoying, heard mostly on the “Saturday Night Fever” tracks. But he also had a soft melodic falsetto that sometimes exhibited vibrato and sometimes a breathy tremolo. His falsetto was a very flexible instrument in tone, as well as a vehicle for extending his already-large range into soprano territory. It was used primarily for urgency (the squeaky falsetto) or emotional intensity and intimacy as well as vulnerability (the mellow or breathy one). But Barry also had a ringing and powerful chest voice and a beautiful head voice, both with an indefinable quality I would describe as “smoky with a hint of brassy” (that’s the voice he’s using for “Had a Lot of Love Last Night”). So, like Maurice, Barry had a lot of flexibility and many options with his voice.
Robin Gibb was the slender sensitive one with the narrow face (he died in 2012; his fraternal twin Maurice died in 2003). Robin was the group’s most frequent lead singer during the Bee Gees’ early days in the 1960s, and I loved his songs at the time – his voice got my immediate attention – without my having any idea whatsoever until over fifty years later that it had been the Bee Gees singing all those 60s songs like “I’ve Got To Get a Message to You,” those very same Bee Gees of later Saturday Night Fever fame (in this video the twins are about 18 and Barry 21; it also is probably lip-synced, because in those days most TV shows didn’t have the technical capacity to do otherwise):
How could that be? The group’s voices and songs in the two eras sounded so unalike that, when I recently learned they were the very same people, it was as bizarre to me as if Chopin had gone on to morph into Tchaikovsky. But in the 60s the Bee Gees gave us baroque pop ballads featuring Robin’s high quaver (and of course the brothers’ gorgeous harmonies) while in the late 70s there was the funky beat-driven dance music that mostly starred Barry and his falsetto with the other brothers in supporting roles. Sometimes Barry and Robin exchanged lead lines in a single song, to great effect (with Robin often singing the more introspective, dramatic, and emotional parts).
And the group went on songwriting, singing, and changing for several decades more, although I didn’t know about that until recently either.
Robin’s voice was even more distinctive than Barry’s, and that’s saying something. Once Robin starts singing, I find it nearly impossible to stop listening. His voice was almost otherworldly, with something that’s been variously described as a warble or a quaver or a fast vibrato (sometimes with a bit of tremolo as well). He also had a very slender and almost delicate appearance, a homely-yet-handsome appeal, and used a characteristic gesture (lampooned at times) of cupping his hand around his ear, the better to hear his own voice in the days before ear monitors. The gesture had the effect of communicating intensity and concentration, of a singer who didn’t care how he looked but was lost in the song (it also reminds me of some of the opening gestures of a role I once danced as a teenager in the ballet “Les Sylphides” to Chopin’s Prelude, a version of which you can view here).
Here’s a very short example of Robin’s early singing:
And here’s the wonderfully informative Fil, talking about Robin’s voice and why it appealed emotionally to so many people. Robin sometimes said that he sang with his heart rather than his voice, and that goes along with what Fil is saying here:
Robin never stopped performing solos or solo turns, the latter usually within songs in which Barry took a more prominent role. He usually sang in an ultra-high register that was not a falsetto, although he could also sing very very low and sometimes did. But it was that quavery warble of Robin’s that touched so many hearts with its pathos. Some people find his voice off-putting, but his fans find it surpassingly beautiful and strongly moving, the voice of a sorrowful angel about to break into a sob but never quite getting there. I’m one of his fans.
As for Maurice, here’s a sample of one of the rare songs on which Maurice sings lead. Most of Mo’s solos were in his lower range, but he usually took the highest harmony when the three sang together. This song is from 1981, and if you listen you might agree with me that in his upper register Maurice had a certain Beach Boys vibe. This version is almost certainly being lip-synced for some TV show, but I’m showing it to let you see Maurice’s personality. He didn’t need to lip-sync to create his sound in person, but I can’t find any other live versions of this song on YouTube so this will have to do. He could also sing falsetto, but usually didn’t and almost always eschewed vibrato or tremolo, which gave his voice a quality that contrasted with and complemented and filled out the sounds made by Barry and Robin. It’s not really surprising that, when Maurice died in 2003, the group was basically finished, because without Maurice to ground them their sound was incomplete:
But the voices of Barry and Robin, and to a lesser extent Maurice, have another quality I find hard to describe but which I think is key to their mesmerizing effect on some people. The best I can do to describe it is to say that each voice has extra internal harmonics. That is, each single voice – especially those of Barry and Robin – seems to my ear to resonate with itself, as though within the one note the person is singing there are harmonic overlays as well, more so than with most other voices. This gives their solo and trio singing a complexity that the ear reads as intriguing and full, and for some listeners (me included) that has an addictive quality all its own. The entire effect of the three together is that of a “wall of sound” constructed through their voices.
I think that was and still is the main source of their vocal magic.
[NOTE: Not done yet – I’ve got a lot more to say. So…to be continued…]
Nevermind the Bee Gees; let’s just please acknowledge that Fil, from Wings of Pegasus, and Rick Beato, of “What Makes This Song Great?” are two of the most gifted musical tour guides to be found anywhere. Thanks, YouTube!
Fil explains the vulnerability part well. Maybe I don’t like to hear male singers sounding vulnerable, or at least not very much. That Robin Gibb excerpt is fingernails on blackboard for me. Terribly annoying.
Reminds me of the Nazareth version of “Love Hurts” and Amercia’s “Sister Golden Hair.”
Paul Snively:
I love Fil and I like Beato. I also am very fond of the Professor of Rock.
huxley:
Yes, as I said, I’m well aware that some people can’t stand Robin’s voice. I love it and always did, even before I knew who it was.
As for male vulnerability in singing, one of the singers the Bee Gees have said had an enormous influence on them, simply enormous, was Roy Orbison. He has been acknowledged by a lot of people who are into the history of rock as the first male rock singer (or rock/pop/county singer) who sang with intense emotional vulnerability.
I also loved Orbison, too, right from the start.
neo:
I’m glad we have a different strokes understanding. Roy Orbison could go there, but for me, he didn’t live there.
I’m not sure what the distinction is exactly. John Lennon sang some intensely vulnerable songs — “If I Fell” and “Girl” for example are “Whoa!” — but I felt like he was telling it straight without pushing it.
neo,
The Professor Of Rock is very good as he talks a lot about 80s music which was the music of my youth but he also gets interviews with an amazing amount of people some of whom you never hear a new interview of any length with anymore. And he loves it and comes prepared to the interviews which makes them even better.
That clip (Had a lot of love) is very nice. I confess that when I think of the BeeGees I think of the high falsetto, which I don’t care for.
Lennon could sing of vulnerability behind a certain veneer of world-weary cynicism. (Hard not to be a little world-weary after a year or two inside the fishbowl of Beatlemania, I’d guess.)
Love the Brothers Gibb and Robin is my most favoritest. That solo almost-hit from 1984 or so, “Boys Do Fall In Love,” is a great example of his voice in a lower register. It’s a great song even if the production is, well, of its time. (The only merely-OK records Dion DiMucci ever made had nothing to do with his performances and everything to do with that 1980s sound.)
The BeeGees have a natural, ethereal quality to their voices, almost as if their voices are electronically manipulated to provide a sort of “reverb” quality to them.
Atop this, is their songs are very melodic; you can listen just once to many of their songs, and you can immediately hum, if you wish , the melody of the song you just heard.
If you think about it, there are many songs that you hear that you cannot even “hum” its melody because it’s totally forgettable.
The BeeGees get a bad rap because many (most?) folks associate their music with the disco era, and so they are not familiar with their non-disco-inspired music.
I always like these musical interludes, even though what I like is different from most here. The premise can be thought-provoking, and lead me in different directions. For instance, today’s musical examples led me somehow to Jim Morrison and the Doors, and I googled what Robert Christgau wrote in the Village Voice about Morrison and his pretensions.
Kate:
The high falsetto is really a fairly small part of their history, although a famous part. Take a look at their earlier stuff and later stuff. There’s a ton of it. They also wrote a lot of songs for other people that were hits. This one, for example.
I recall being judged harshly for music preferences, so never listened to the BeeGees because “disco music.” Generally, I listened to my uncool music in secret, but had to catch it at random on a tinny transistor radio or buy it —and a stereo— to hear it— and someone might catch me… The Bee Gees were amazing talents, I really missed out and also apparently, I lived in a gulag.
huxley:
And I never felt that Lennon’s emotion was sincere at all. I felt it was just for the song; a surface thing.
I do like the Beatles and certainly liked them at the time. But only Paul seemed to have any real emotion. In general, I didn’t (and still don’t) think of their songs as emotional. Maybe “Yesterday” and “Eleanor Rigby” and “She’s Leaving Home.” The rest are just songs to me and never resonated emotionally, although I did like them.
Esther:
In retrospect, I guess I was fortunate in that no one seemed to give a hoot what music I was listening to at any point in my life.
John Tyler:
The Bee Gees are harmony plus hooks. Multiple hooks, with lots of memorable melody. To me, it’s a winning combination.
As a woman, I have to say they have other great attributes as well. But right now we’re just talking about sound.
And I never felt that Lennon’s emotion was sincere at all. I felt it was just for the song; a surface thing.
neo:
I think this gets to the nub of it — authenticity — and the perception thereof.
For me, Robin Gibb, to be blunt, sounds like a fake guy singing a fake song in a fake way and it drives me away. I’m aware I really don’t know Gibb at all.
Yet somehow I buy John Lennon, even before I knew much about him. (Likewise, Jim Morrison, whom miklos brought up.)
I don’t know how this works. Seems like it’s buried pretty deep in the brain’s emotional processing.
Interesting, Neo, and but for you I wouldn’t know they did anything I’d like.
JohnTyler,
There certainly is reverberation added to these studio recordings.
The thing that always amazed me was that even the old Buddy Holly or the Big Bopper studio recordings had reverberation added which was done with a series of coiled steel springs and electroacoustic transducers. Tech that dates back to 1939 and was invented for use with the Hammond organ. Here is a picture
By 1981 they might have been using more sophisticated circuitry. And by then all the big recording studios could record at least 24 tracks, so multi-note harmonies sung by one person is possible.
In which I defend my least favorite Beatle John Lennon.
I would somewhat agree that few of Beatles Lennon songs are overly emotional especially in a romantic way but I think ‘Julia’ is very emotional and that is where Lennon shows true emotion, loss.
Also you have ‘Mother’ from his post Beatles days.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPYsMM1FvXs
Also ‘Love’
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7er_xx7Wmg8
Plus I think ‘Beautiful Boy’ in light of what happened is very emotional. Now I’m done.
Griffin:
I’m with you on John Lennon. Some of his songs, maybe most, did emerge from his core, however others may perceive them.
For instance, “Help.” There is a bizarre disconnect between the upbeat sound and the lyrics, but Lennon has said that he wrote that song when he felt truly out of control and insecure. It was a real song in that regard and the lyrics painted a non-relationship desperation that may have been the first of their kind in rock/pop.
He’s not looking for a beautiful woman to take away his loneliness. He’s looking for someone, anyone, because he’s in trouble:
________________________________________________
When I was younger, so much younger than today
I never needed anybody’s help in any way
But now these days are gone and I’m not so self assured
Now I find I’ve changed my mind, I’ve opened up the doors
Help me if you can, I’m feeling down
And I do appreciate you being ’round
Help me get my feet back on the ground
Won’t you please, please help me?
The Beatles – Help!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE
John Tyler; TommyJay:
Yes, I’ve read that most pop and rock recordings use reverb in the studio.
The thing about the Bee Gees is that they sounded that way even without the reverb. In live performances and even in interviews where they suddenly break into song, just with an acoustic guitar and the regular mic, their voices reverberate in an unusual way.
For example, listen to this. No reverb used, just acoustic guitar and their voices. Wait for the part where Maurice chimes in to make 3 voices in the chorus, each time the three of them sing “blue island” and in particular the final notes of the song:
For me personally I think the Bee Gees disco hits did have a lack of emotion (‘Emotion’ by Samantha Sang also a Bee Gee write) and weren’t particularly romantic with maybe the exception of ‘More Than A Woman’. Maybe it’s the slickness or something and I’m sure they had some album cuts that would prove me wrong but for a depth of emotion I would look to pre 1975 Bee Gees. But that’s just me.
Then, there’s Lennon’s “Run for Your Life.” That’s peering into the blast furnace of Lennon’s soul. It’s hard for me to imagine hearing that song as some insincerity Lennon was foisting on his audience.
___________________________________
Well, I’d rather see you dead, little girl
Than to be with another man
You better keep your head, little girl
Or I won’t know where I am
By the way, I appreciate these musical interludes as the rest of the news seems to be unendingly depressing and I just can’t wallow in it too long.
Kate:
About a month or so ago, before I fell down the Bee Gee rabbit hole, I thought – like you – that there was nothing they did that would have interested me. Boy, was I wrong. Mega-wrong. And I’ve discovered this is a common experience lately, with a lot of people rediscovering them and being stunned at what they had overlooked. Some of these people have been moved to listen to them again because of a recent HBO documentary, although that’s not what happened to me.
Their personal story is very moving, arresting, and interesting as well. I probably will write more about that some other time. Their interviews (many of which I’ve now watched) also show them to be extremely likeable and funny, really funny.
I just read the post and haven’t had time to read the comments. A lot to digest merely in the post, but I will say, regarding neo’s comment about internal harmonics, not to shortshrift the Brothers Gibbs’ talent, but it could be that they each sung multiple tracks which were layered over one another. Even when only one is singing lead, solo, the producer could have had him record two or more tracks and put them right on top of one another.
Again, haven’t read the comments, but I assume all here know there was also a younger brother, Andy, who had an incredible voice.
huxley:
You think Lennon wanted to murder ex-girlfriends? I know he had a temper and apparently a violent streak, but that song seems to me to be very dramatic and probably an exaggeration. But my issue with Lennon isn’t actually whether he had these emotions or even whether he was sincere. My issue is that I don’t perceive him as being sincere – that’s his voice I’m talking about.
I don’t know why I don’t, but I don’t and I never did. It’s okay with me – as I said, I like the Beatles – but I haven’t been drawn to listen to them over the years. They don’t resonate with me emotionally at all. But groups don’t have to resonate emotionally with me in order for me to like them. For example, “Sultans of Swing” – one of my very favorite songs of all time – is not emotional, at least not for me. But I love it.
Leonard Cohen, on the other hand, is a big favorite and is emotional for me, but he doesn’t wear his heart on his sleeve.
Well I’ll go ahead and say it: I like the Bee Gee’s disco era also! May not have the harmonies of prior or post, but I’m not apologizing for loving Stayin Alive, or More than a Woman.
Rufus, you should watch/buy/rent their live Vegas concert One Night Only. Seems to dispute any multitracking in their vocals
Rufus T. Firefly:
Please see my comment here and listen to the video I put there.
The gist of it is that they could create most of their sound without reverb, without double tracking – as shown by many videos of them talking in an interview and then singing, just sitting there in their seats, sometimes without instruments, and having that ringing harmonic sound. It’s quite uncanny.
In the studio they did often using double and multiple tracking, as nearly all singers do. But they could get nearly the same effect in person. There were a few songs they rarely or never performed in person because they couldn’t recreate them because they used a lot of tracks: “Fanny Be Tender” was one of them.
You think Lennon wanted to murder ex-girlfriends?
neo:
Hardly. But he was expressing the depth of his jealousy and Lennon was a jealous guy. Even wrote a first-person song about it later called … “Jealous Guy.”
My issue is that I don’t perceive him as being sincere – that’s his voice I’m talking about.
And that's the issue I'm talking about. Which I acknowledged early on.
Thought partly, I'm also saying that people can write intensely personal songs which are true to their lives, while others may write and sing such songs which are fiction.
As far as I can tell, Leonard Cohen's marvelous "Famous Blue Raincoat" is a fiction, yet he sings it with drop-dead sincerity. (It was Cohen himself who owned a “famous blue raincoat,” not some mysterious rival.)
>> If you think about it, there are many songs that you hear that you cannot even “hum” its melody because it’s totally forgettable.<<
Heh. To your point, I remember a contemporary review of Gerry Rafferty's 1978 LP with Baker Street wherein the reviewer challenged the reader gently to hum the melody of "Baker Street." Not the sax hook, but the actual verse and chorus themselves. And I like Rafferty and his Stealer's Wheel before that.
My only knock on the Bee Gees is that I can't sing that stuff myself without passing out.
physicsguy:
I have come to love their disco songs, too. I now think “Stayin’ Alive” is actually a masterpiece. I plan to write about that, too.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Andy had a beautiful voice. The Bee Gees wrote his big hits and often sang backup for him.
huxley,
Yeah I’m fairly certain that Johnny Cash never ‘shot a man in Reno just to watch him die’ before writing ‘Folsom Prison Blues’.
Neo,
You are absolutely correct in your last comment about live vs. multi-tracking. But the reverb box is little and can be plugged into anything. (I’m pretty sure it is in the live video at 5:35pm.) It’s built in to guitar amps. The rockumentary movie on the band Rush had a great piece about their new producer (around the 3rd album maybe) dragging the guitarist Alex Lifeson away from his reverb knob kicking and screaming.
I don’t dislike the BeeGees at all, but I’m with physicsguy. I slightly prefer the disco songs I suppose because disco is derivative of R&B. Rick Beato has a video on What Killed Pop Music (It isn’t hip hop). He claims it is the move away from Blues after Y2K. Some of your songs up top are blues themed I’d say.
I shared a suite with a few other guys in college and collectively we had this huge album collection. One of my roomies knew I liked some disco but I never bought any of it because maybe I thought it was too declasse. So on my birthday one year he bought me a disco album he knew I would like.
Here is a sample of KC.
huxley; Griffin:
Ah, but I think Cohen’s song is very autobiographical. I just think he switched it so that he was writing as the guy in the couple, rather than the guy in the raincoat – but he was actually the guy in the raincoat.
It makes sense to me, from what I know of Cohen’s love life.
I of course agree, though, that songwriters can write (and singers can sing) songs that are not autobiographical, and yet invest them with emotion that seems real.
After all, the Bee Gees wrote “Woman in Love” for Streisand. Not only that, but Barry sang all the songs in demos (in falsetto, to represent her voice range) and sent them to her. Here is an astounding thing, the demo for “Woman in Love,” sung by Barry in a falsetto so high that it’s higher than Streisand ended up using for her hit recording of the song. It’s pretty darn emotional, as you will see (if you can bear to listen; methinks maybe you will detest it). It was not originally meant for anyone but Streisand and her crew:
I think we can all agree neo has an obsession with the Beegees. That’s cool. I have one with Bonnie Raitt. Her singing voice, bluesy guitar licks and love that silver streak in her pretty red hair.
Oh and she don’t dress like a tramp.
jack:
I think that one of the interesting things about my Bee Gee obsession is that it is of such recent vintage. I think it reflects both the availability of old videos on YouTube and the fact that it’s a wonderful escape from some of the more depressing events of the present.
In “Run For Your Life” Lennon is singing as a character. That opening line is a direct callback to “Baby Let’s Play House,” which Elvis covered during his time at Sun Records. It’s a shame about that lyric now, because that track is a great Bakersfield homage. (As is “What Goes On?” This was about the time they had Ringo cover Buck Owens’s “Act Naturally.”) The playing on “Run For Your Life” is top notch.
There’s a whole cohort of so-called reaction videos on YouTube in which young black listeners watch a Bee Gees video for the first time and are astonished that the Bee Gees aren’t black! Their moms all played the disco-era songs, and they assumed the harmonies and rhythms were produced by a soul group. Smokey Robinson and others in Motown used a similar sound, and the HBO documentary suggests that Atlantic producer Arif Mardin was the bridge here.
TommyJay:
The Bee Gees have a ton of non-disco R&B songs. The first one they did was for Otis Redding, but he died before recording it. It’s “To Love Somebody,” covered by tons of singers, including Janis Joplin and Nina Simone. Here’s Nina’s version.
The point about the reverb is that all singers use it, and I assume they all use it in live performances too if there is a portable one to plug into a mic. However, the Bee Gees have a different sound compared to the others, and it’s not because they use reverb, considering that it’s a near universal. They could also recreate their sound onstage in live performance to a degree that most groups couldn’t.
Also, I have seen them in lengthy spoken interviews suddenly break into song for a short while, and it seems unplanned and I’m not sure that the mic has reverb on it in advance. In fact, I doubt it.
Dan:
I already have a draft for a post on reaction videos to the Bee Gees. It’s a whole separate genre.
There is also a sort of behind the scenes video on YouTube of The Bee Gees recording ‘Tragedy’ and the hilariously lo tech way they got the explosion sound. It’s Barry cupping his hand and making the sound into the mic.
“Baroque Pop Music’
I suppose I could do a search, but I’ll just ask instead: Did you make that term up, Neo?
The Bee Gees are apparently especially appreciated by their fans for particular sensibilities and for vocal deliveries expressing:
Yes, well, just thinking out loud here LOL, , but that descriptive quote above, might answer, at least in part, why the men you mention who intensely disliked the Bee Gees, might have had an almost physically violent reaction to them and wanted to, you know , “smash their faces” or whatever.
When not in costume, they certainly look normal enough at first glance – except maybe for the weak looking guy with the overbite – but I don’t think these are men who other men can really relate to or want to emulate, much less respect as … guys. Maybe kind of odd, and possibly unfair; because at least one of them looks like he could defend himself or his wife and kids if he were forced to.
But all in all, they superficially give the impression of being amiable but over civilized – if fully hetero – guys; and kind of the type who avoided trouble by socializing mainly with girls, taking band classes to get out of gym, and by diligently avoiding certain hallways in hign school. But again, thoroughly hetero all the same.
As I say, it’s possibly unfair to peg them like this, because 1, they are just putting on an act for money, and 2, they talk normally enough in interviews.
Ah, but I think Cohen’s song is very autobiographical. I just think he switched it so that he was writing as the guy in the couple, rather than the guy in the raincoat – but he was actually the guy in the raincoat.
neo:
That’s how I understand the song too. Cohen is the “thin gypsy thief with a rose in his teeth” and the blue raincoat in the song. He had many affairs and I’ll bet there were a few unhappy husbands on the other end. However, I don’t equate autobiographical details with sincerity, when roles are switched like that.
If Lee Harvey Oswald lived to write a song about being assassinated, sincerity is not a word which would come to my mind, although it would be autobiographical.
Keep in mind that Cohen wasn’t just singing about some unspecified romantic triangle. He concluded the lyrics, “Sincerely, L. Cohen” as the cuckold in the song, not to cuckolder.
It seems odd that you object to my claim for Lennon’s sincerity in “Run for Your Life” because you question whether I believe Lennon really intended to murder his girlfriend.
Though of course, we are primarily discussing the impression of sincerity, rather than autobiographical truth.
How does sincerity work with singers? Why may individual listeners gauge it so differently?
_______________________________________________
Sincerity is the key to success. Once you can fake that you’ve got it made.
–Groucho Marx, George Burns or someone else
huxley:
I was indeed discussing the impression of sincerity – the perception of sincerity. I wasn’t sure whether you were discussing actual sincerity, though – thus, my question to you about Lennon. You had written of the song: “That’s peering into the blast furnace of Lennon’s soul.” That sounded like you meant actual sincerity, not just the listener’s perception of sincerity.
I think the gauging of sincerity for singers, and individual differences in the way listeners perceive sincerity, is similar to the way it works for non-singers. For example, I saw Christine Blasey Ford as a faker with a fake little girl voice, and many of my friends saw her as a completely sincere woman-wronged by the terrible Kavanaugh.
DNW:
If you had done a search, it would have led you this as well as this list, where you will find both the Bee Gees and Robin Gibb. I certainly did not make up the term.
As for the Bee Gees and the public – I never said it was guys who disliked them. As far as I know, they were equally liked by men and women and equally disliked by men and women. As for their actual lives, it’s another thing you might want to do a bit of research on. They were born in Britain and raised in Australia, and were quite the carousers in their youth, having given up a life of petty crime as kids because they had decided they wanted to be songwriters and singers. Their family of seven was extremely poor, and they became the main breadwinners while still kids and young teenagers. They took on heavy responsibility at a very early age. They also had a very good, and irreverent, sense of humor, and played off each other with it a lot in interviews. They dropped out of school very early (I believe the twins were 13 at the time) to earn money, and yet they are clearly very intelligent when you hear them in interviews.
Baroque pop WAS kind of thing intermittently from 1966 into 1969. The Left Banke, one-off acts like Neon Philharmonic, and the like. You could argue that studio creations like Sagittarius (hear the glorious “My World Fell Down’) and some of the Assocation’s more ambitious work like “Everything That Touches You” might fit the category. And you had Procul Harum nicking Bach for “A Whiter Shade Of Pale.”
See also, to some degree, Wilson, Brian. 8^)
Best gift my parents could ever have given me was to have me when they did. My grade school years were dominated by 1960s Top 40 AM radio.
neo:
I do consider Lennon’s “Run for Your LIfe” is an actually sincere song. Even if we can harken back to some song Elvis sang in his Sun Records days, as Squints mentions. Like the others Griffin and I listed.
My impression is that after Beatlemania waned and not including his psychedelia, Lennon mostly and intentionally wrote sincere songs, to the point of boredom during the Yoko years.
Without knowing anything personal about the BeeGees, I suspect their songs are conventional “Hey kids, let’s put on a song” kinda songs. I’m sure their songs were informed by their occasions of heartbreak or love or attraction, but they wrote fiction. I could be wrong.
There’s nothing wrong with that. I don’t mean it as a slight. I’ll say the same of Leonard Cohen, mostly. His songs came out of his life and feelings and interests, but they were not confessional as, say, Joni Mitchell’s were. There were exceptions, such as (obviously) “So Long Marianne” and “Chelsea Hotel” but they were exceptions.
I thought a lot about this issue when I was writing poetry.
huxley:
The Bee Gees wrote over 1000 songs, and so there was a lot of variety. Some were personal, but not obviously personal. To take one example, they wrote “How Can You Mend a Broken Heart” the first day they got together after a breakup when they were young. The breakup had made them all miserable. They also said in interviews that they ordinarily thought of titles first for a theme, then wrote the music, and then the lyrics. They also said their main themes were love and loneliness.
In their baroque period they wrote some extremely quirky songs, and a theme album called “Odessa.”
neo, huxley,
As for Lennon if you are familiar with Lennon’s relationship with his mother Julia and her tragic death when he was a teenager I don’t know how you can not think that song ‘Mother’ is sincere.
neo:
Fine, but you do get my point…?
I would add that when I talk about something I don’t like, I don’t mean it as “anything I don’t like is obviously garbage.” I’ve learned better too many times.
I do find it interesting when my reactions differ from others markedly. That makes me curious. I’ll admit I was taken aback by your passion, if I may call it that, for the BeeGees.
I am equally curious about why I find the BeeGees so, well, repellent. I’m happy to concede their mastery, creativity and contributions. But much past “New York Mining Disaster 1941” I want to run from their music.
Then again, two of my best friends felt that way about Leonard Cohen. Not to mention critics, until a few years ago, anyway.
In one of Cohen’s last albums he gets off a killer personal line amidst the world’s horrors. There ought to be a fancy Greek name for that as a rhetorical device, but I’m not coming up with it.
___________________________________
There’s torture and there’s killing
And there’s all my bad reviews
The war, the children missing
Lord, it’s almost like the blues
–Leonard Cohen, “Almost like the Blues”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szYrXzEi0cg
“How Can You Mend a Broken Heart”
First broken heart. Dad told me … son at your age when you kiss the lips of another woman you’re going to forget about that other girl.
“She’s not yours: it’s just your turn.”
There’s probably a Country & Western song with lyrics along these lines out there somewhere.
“She’s not yours: it’s just your turn.
Zaphod:
There’s Toby Keith’s perfect song/video:
_______________________________________
Yeah, here you come knockin’ on my door, baby
Tell me what you got on your mind
I guess those college boys all went home for the summertime
Yeah, you’re lookin’ right, lookin’ good
Lookin’ like a woman should
So why is it so hard to find
A place to lay your pretty little head down once in a while
You run on a little tough luck, baby
Don’t you sweat it
Everything is waiting inside for you
You know I got it
Come and get it
Who’s your daddy, who’s your baby?
Who’s your buddy, who’s your friend?
–Toby Keith – Who’s Your Daddy?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVRzk3VWOKY
_______________________________________
But the twist could give you the best whiplash you ever had.
Huxley,
I think there is something to be said for appreciating why a performer or genre is popular and understanding that there probably is something good about. That is kind of like me with say The Bee Gees or Pink Floyd where I’m not a huge fan of either but I like some of their stuff and then there are other acts that I absolutely love like The Who or Paul McCartney that I can never get enough of. That’s sort of how I view neo’s love of The Bee Gees.
Now if she was writing all these pieces about Rush then I would not be happy.
I made a movie of the 1981 Transpac Race because I knew I would only be able to do it once. The sound track to the move was largely beeGees music because they were big then. This clip is an example but not with the BeeGees. It was a great summer.
Griffin:
Yeah, Rush is up there for “De Gustibus.”
I’m aware that Alex Lifeson and Neil Peart are gods on guitar and drums, respectively. Rush’s albums have interesting concepts, they’ve sold mega-platinum, but I sure don’t get the music.
Maybe someday.
Metal doesn’t do anything for me either.
Griffin:
I find I don’t like the solo work of any of the Beatles, except for an occasional song or two, sincere or not. I was speaking of Lennon’s singing of Beatles’ songs.
I was a classical/folk/Beatles kid. It took me years to get the hang of R&B, blues, hard rock, Lou Reed and VU. I got faster at picking up New Wave and alt-rock. It’s only been since 2000 or so I started liking country.
I could tell a similar story with different kinds of art, poetry, fiction and film. I like to like things. It’s an adventure.
It’s not a point of pride with me not to like the BeeGees. That could happen and maybe neo will link the right video or say the special thing which will open the gates for me.
huxley:
Musical tastes are indeed idiosyncratic and often mysterious. I know I tend to like male voices, harmony, melody, and hooks.
I also have grown to like the Bee Gees very much as people, via their interviews on YouTube. I love their speaking voices, too.
Huxley,
Yep, I understand that the members of Rush are great musicians but Geddy Lee has to be the most unappealing vocalist of any huge band ever. Just awful. And there music has always come across to me as sterile and cold.
I’m re-enjoying and marveling at the lyric for To Love Somebody.
It’s sung so aggressively, angrily, hopelessly. The words don’t fit the meter well. They’re not super-coherent.
Woman In Love lyrics impress me too. A cosmic vision drawn in a few strokes.
neo,
Yes, the magic of the Beatles is missing from the solo stuff but I still think they all have had their moments even Ringo. My mom loves ‘The No No Song’ by Ringo which I get a kick out of.
Esther @ 4:49pm,
Sounds like you had older brothers.
I also have grown to like the Bee Gees very much as people
neo:
That might be the way in for me. I didn't get Lemmy of Motorhead until I saw a doco on him:
"Lemmy: 49% motherf**ker. 51% son of a bitch"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemmy_(film)
Not that I'm recommending Lemmy to you. I imagine the personal appeal of the BeeGees is on a different wavelength.
–Lemmy, “The Ace of Spades”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mbvWn1EY6g
Squints,
At your suggestion I tried humming “Baker Street” just after reading your sentence. I had no difficulty at all. Pretty sure if there were a keyboard nearby I could start picking it out. I don’t see any distinction between it or any other pop song. I have no idea what that reviewer was talking about.
The key to being a great entertainer is sincerity. Once you can fake that you’ve got it made!
neo, Griffin:
No getting around it — the Beatles were four wonderfully talented individuals, and you could have built a band around any of them, but the synergy between them took it to a whole ‘nother level that IMO has never been equaled.
Just last night I was watching a music video, “Was John Lennon a Good Guitarist?!”, because I’ve wondered. You never saw him rip up and down the neck like a true Geetar Hero. But what you learn is that John — like George, like Paul and like Ringo — could hit just the right lick, riff, fill for the song.
So, so tasteful and intricate too. The Beatles didn’t play standard chords. They knew ’em all.
–Chris Buck, “Was John Lennon a Good Guitarist?!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKRbCEHtpL0
“Run for Your Life” is probably in my top ten favorite Beatles songs. Actually, I’m not sure if I have more than 10. I don’t think I like any of their songs that are more than about 2:58. Their rockabilly stuff and covers are awesome. The other stuff… Not my cup of tea. Every once in awhile I’ll flip through the dial and hear “Hey Jude” playing and I wonder how anyone on planet Earth could actually want to hear that song, yet again. I’m not saying it’s awful, but if you don’t get the gist of it after two or three hearings, I’m not sure what you’re looking for.
I’d just like to add here that I found neo’s BeeGee’s crush very cute.
Off topic, but Neo, you said: ” I saw Christine Blasey Ford as a faker with a fake little girl voice,”
Back when that was going on, you posted a video clip which you said showed CBF dropping the mask at some point when she was challenged–suddenly changing from the fake little girl voice and manner. I didn’t watch it at the time, just took your word for it. But since then in conversations about that episode I’ve wished I had seen it, and wanted to show it to other people. But I’ve looked and not been able to find it. If you can locate it, I’d like to see it.
With all these BeeGees posts I’ve thought “I don’t have time to listen to these now. I’ll come back later,” but never have. I must say I’m surprised at the level of your enthusiasm. I always did like some of their early Beatles-y stuff but not wildly.
I haven’t heard it for many years, but while I think “To Love Somebody” is brilliant, it always seemed sort of unfinished. Like it needed another verse.
Regarding the debate over reverb and other affects, as neo intimates in her post, the fact that they are brothers, and two of them are twins, almost certainly gave them some of their uniqueness. The HBO documentary features interviews with Noel Gallagher who, with his brother Liam, formed the band Oasis. Noel talks about siblings sometimes being able to do unique vocal things because of shared DNA.
huxley: I’ve heard Beatles fanatics, the kind of people who read books about them and listen to every scrap of audio, claim that McCartney was actually the best guitarist of the group. I don’t know if that’s defensible or not. I do think he was the most talented in purely musical terms.
I’d just like to add here that I found neo’s BeeGee’s crush very cute.
Rufus T. Firefly:
I might not put it quite that way, but hear! hear! Whenever someone gets to liking something/someone new, I’m reminded of the end to “It’s a Wonderful Life”:
Every time a bell rings an angel gets his wings.
McCartney was actually the best guitarist of the group.
Mac:
I’ve heard it said that Ringo wasn’t even the best drummer in the Beatles.
McCartney is a freak, as I started realize when his first solo album came out and he played all the instruments. I give McCartney credit for stepping aside to let George and John have the guitars, while he learned the bass.
He has written four *classical* albums and the fourth, “Ecce Cor Meum,” won best classical album of the year for “Classical FM” magazine.
Huxley,
Lennon always denied he ever said Ringo wasn’t even the best drummer in the Beatles.
Paul McCartney may be an actual genius when it comes to melody. Not just a rock/pop genius but a musical genius. Very rare talent.
Griffin:
I read that from others too. I guess they parroted John’s “claim.” There is a long line of people happy to disparage Ringo’s talents.
I’m not a drummer and rhythm is not my forte. However, as a different set of others explain it, Ringo was one of the top Brit drummers which is why the Beatles were happy to snag him from “Rory Storm and the Hurricanes.”
Ringo was one of the first rock drummers to play “matched” style — both hands holding the sticks overhand. His fills were unusual yet complemented the songs wonderfully.
I also read that at the end of a Beatles recording session there was a pile of wood chips beneath Ringo’s drums because he wasn’t holding back. That’s Ringo crying, “I’ve got blisters on my fingers!” on “Helter Skelter”, not John as I always assumed.
Huxley,
Yeah, the drums have always confused me. I know what I like but I don’t fully understand the technicalities of it. What I do know is Bonham was the perfect drummer for Zeppelin and Moon was the perfect drummer for The Who and Ringo was the perfect drummer for the Beatles. And he was a left handed drummer playing on a right handed drum kit also.
Griffin,
Another of my favorite Beatles songs is, “Boys” also sung by Ringo.
I guess I just don’t get the Beatles.
Chick Webb was one of the best.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_Webb
Gene Krupa, Buddy Rich and many highly praised Chick.
I doubt Ringo could care less what people thought of him as a drummer. He was a member of one the most revered bands on the planet.
Griffin:
Hendrix was left-handed, yet played a right-handed Stratocaster, just restrung backwards. So Hendrix played the same chords but his strings had different tension on them, thus a different set of sounds. (I used to wonder how this worked.)
https://www.popularmechanics.com/culture/music/a17922/jimi-hendrix-backwards-stratocaster/
When I was young and watched the Hendrix concert films, I marveled at his speed and dexterity. But after watching Eddie Van Halen, much less the latest generation of shredders, Hendrix looks quaint.
I went back and listened to his albums and I realized that Hendrix’s virtuosity was never the whole package. It wasn’t the fabulously fast blues runs that made him nor the fancy feedback effects. It was the whole package of the sounds and sensibility he created from nothing and put together in a way no one has matched, not even Stevie Ray Vaughn.
Then there’s “Little Wing,” which I first heard as a child-like ditty, but actually has layers and layers and it will break your heart. There are plenty of covers. Accept no substitutes.
huxley
Agreed … on the Hendrix Little Wing version
https://youtu.be/U5Vki76x-EU
Huxley,
Yep, Stevie Ray Vaughn worshiped Hendrix and had a few covers but SRV was so much more. His death is one of the saddest of all the rock star deaths. So senseless. Some great documentaries about him out there.
Yes SRV does rip it up pretty damn good.
https://youtu.be/-pO6yg9KBGU
jack, Griffin:
I was pleasantly shocked to discover that SRV had played on Jennifer Warnes’ album of Leonard Cohen songs, “Famous Blue Raincoat” (returning to a thread theme!) and David Bowie’s 80s classic, “Let’s Dance.”
Those would have been special albums without Vaughn, but he made sure they were extra-special. It was a great loss SRV died young. Hendrix even younger.
Huxley,
All deaths of people at a young age are tragic but to me if it involves a level of self destructive behavior it is a little less tragic. SRV in a helicopter crash, Lennon murdered by a lunatic, Randy Rhoads in a plane crash while buzzing Ozzy’s tour bus just a few that come to mind that are really sad.
Don’t forget little brother Andy! Not around for long (early death) but none too shabby himself.
Always wondered why their little sister never sang w/ them.
When I was in my teens they bought house of family friends, right across st. from other family friends, and 10 min. bike ride from my house (all on Miami Beach, which is really pretty small and most everyone knows everybody). A lot of us thought how cool; we’d see’em around… Not! Ever. But same thing w/ Gloria Estefan. And Julio Iglesias down st. from BeeGees. I was younger than them, and older than their kids. Plus I was a public school kid (once upon a time we had excellent public schools- espec if you took the AP classes. They were significantly better than the courses I took at the very highly regarded university I went to & missed them once I got to those first classes in college)
Anyway, celebrity kids were chauffered quite a ways into Miami to private schools, I suppose with goal of weeding them out from riff-raff like me! lol
I’m not a musician at all, but the Bee Gees songs were almost always “ear worm” songs for me.
Griffin, “Boys” is just awesome. I defy anyone not to smile and headshake (you know the headshake I mean) when it’s on.
It’s weird. Sometimes for things Beatley, I’m in a mood for Sgt Pepper and afterward. (Call it “blue album” Beatles.) And I never won’t like it. But most of the time, when I really want to hear them, I want everything through Revolver, especially the early stuff including all the covers.
Regarding reverb technically…
Stand-alone analog reverb units (basically a smallish steel box with transducers at each end and springs between them with audio amplification in and out) would have been readily available during the era in question and it would have been a simple matter for a TV studio (or similar) audio board operator to turn up/down (“pot” up/down in the slang) the reverb component of the audio feed in a heartbeat when any given singer broke into song, even in the midst of a spoken interview.
A reverb unit was/is never actually in the mic feed per se, as the signal at that point is too low and unprocessed (no gain staging or EQ at that point), but rather further along in the mixer’s audio chain, typically as an “insert” that is electronically between the initial gain / EQ / monitor (or “fold back”) stages and the final channel level (volume).
The reverb unit could have also been electronically put in the signal path on an auxiliary (Aux) send as essentially a “side chain” that sent the audio signal there, then routed it back into the main mix, both with readily available level controls.
While I can’t speak to whether that’s what was happening in some of the examples mentioned, for a capable audio operator, it would have been standard procedure should the “artist” want it done to bring up the reverb when they started singing and back down when finished.
Mike K,
I followed the link to your blog. Simply amazing!! I can’t imagine the experience of sailing from California to Hawaii on a boat that size. Wow! I popped over to your bio. You are a very accomplished man. I think it is great that you have recently focused on teaching the history of medicine to students. I am not a huge history buff, but I found the study of historical milestones and reading biographies of innovators in a field helped immensely with the “nuts and bolts” of my biology, physics, chemistry, mathematics, computer science and astronomy classes. It is a shame teaching history is not standard practice alongside the teachings of formulae, equations and rote memorization. Sounds like you are working to fill that gap in the medical profession.
I am somewhat new to sailing (only about 5 years into it), but I have fallen in love with it. From talking to others, and watching its affect on my children, it seems like it is something one either quickly gets a bug for, or does not. My boat is only, basically a glorified toy; a Hobie Adventure Island trimaran, but I have spent many pleasurable hours in it. I sail and camp often with a friend who has a slightly larger trimaran, and we are working our way up to larger, more complex boats. We are hoping to get down to the Caribbean this year to get trained on a 40′ trimaran, so we are able to rent such boats in the future. He has a bit more capital than I, and will likely be buying a used boat around that size. He dreams of a trans-Pacific adventure like you have done, but I think I’ll always be content sailing within sight of land.
I think my most fun outing thus far was a camping trip I did at Peninsula State Park in Door County, Wisconsin. Wind and water conditions were ideal. Just typing about this now makes me long for Spring to arrive so I can get back out on the water!
neo,
An impression I took away from the biopic, “How Do You Mend a Broken Heart?” was the reverence Robin seemed to have for Barry, especially when they were young. As the oldest, it doesn’t seem unusual that Robin would look up to him, and, from what the movie said, Barry seemed to enjoy leading Robin and Maurice and directing their lives as children. But the connection twins sometimes have seemed to be missing. I think one of them even mentioned that they were more like triplets than twins. Robin likely was born with a great voice, but I wonder if his admiration of Barry (also a gifted singer) pushed him to be more of a soloist. Maurice seemed more interested in musicianship and learning to play instruments, than singing.
Regarding the debate that popped up about John Lennon vs. Robin Gibb,
My guess is it has something to do with masculinity/femininity, yin/yang…
When we are teens our hormones are certainly dictating a lot of our behavior and moods. It may be tribal*. Entertainers garner a great deal of attention in our society. Maybe it’s some primal, internal thing about choosing leaders, or the types of men our tribe’s young men and women should admire? Although making their livings in the same manner; young John Lennon put forth a very different persona than the Bee Gees. Many of their early songs are similar; what they were doing is similar, yet there is some division between them under the surface.
*Interesting that the film “Saturday Night Fever” was based on an article, “Tribal Rites of the New Saturday Night”
At one point in the 70s the BeeGees had three of the top five records in the Billboard pop chart, I think “Stayin’ Alive”, “Night Fever” and “How Deep Is Your Love”. This was the closest thing to the Beatles’ famous sweep of the top five at the height of Beatlemania in March 1964. It occurred to me at the time they had the same formula – fuse contemporary R&B with good songwriting and harmony vocals. The early Beatles’ sound was rooted in early ’60s R&B/girl group recordings and Motown, e. g. “Boys” mentioned above was originally done by the Shirelles.
Rufus T. Firefly:
I don’t perceive exactly what you mean. For me, Lennon had a sort of snarky vibe, but not a particularly “masculine” one at all. In fact, the early Beatles – of the suits and the bowl-shaped haircuts – were considered a bit effeminate at the time they first came to the US (although,like the Bee Gees, always heterosexual and attractive to women). Paul in particular, but all of them. Just a bit. The early Bee Gees don’t seem any more effeminate to me than the Beatles (although Robin a bit – but not in interviews, where they’re all quite witty and you see a lot of brotherly ribbing).
As for the Robin and Barry relationship, I haven’t seen that particular documentary. But I’ve seen many interviews and a couple of older documentaries on YouTube, and I see their relationship quite differently. The twins very much felt like twins but fraternal twins, because their looks and personalities were different, and all did feel also like triplets, but by the time they were in getting famous in England as teenagers Barry and Robin had a lot of conflict. In fact, the group split up for about 18 months over that conflict, which was basically a clash of two strong egos and two strong artistic opinions. Maurice was always the peacemaker and had little conflict with either of them, but he said that during the split he felt that half of him wasn’t there. The split was very painful for all three, and they learned that no matter what they needed to be together, although they also needed to carve out separate space. That’s how they handled it for the rest of their lives. When Mo died in 2003 it was extraordinarily painful for both of them, but even more so for Robin because of the twinship. He said in interviews that he had never accepted Mo’s death and never would.
When Robin was about 17 years old, he was in a huge train crash in Britain that killed 49 people (see this). He was okay, but very traumatized by it. Before his brothers knew anything about the crash, Mo apparently suddenly said “Something’s happened to Robin.” That was the sort of bond they had as twins.
FOAF:
It was actually four, depending how you count. Here’s the story:
To refresh your memory – with a modern twist in a reaction video – we have “Night Fever”:
Sadly, a couple of years ago on a Saturday night, I ran across a PBS tribute to Barry Gibb. (It may have been during Pledge Week.) I was shocked by his appearance: he looked short, plump and on the edge of dementia.
Oliver T.,
The internet says he’s 5′ 11″, which seems credible to me from pictures I’ve seen of him standing near other folks.
Oliver T:
I have no idea what you saw, but Barry Gibb has been doing a lot of interviews and appearances in recent years and he looks great for his age (he’s 74 now). He’s no longer reed-thin and has gained a little weight, but certainly isn’t fat, and seems tall enough. What’s more, in his interviews he’s quite articulate. Here’s a very recent interview.
Those were the days of miracle and wonder
And don’t cry baby, don’t cry, don’t cry, don’t cry.
How can your heart not break when you hear them sing
” I can think of younger days,
When living for my life
Was everything a man could want to do….
I could never see tomorrow,
No one said a word
About the sorrow….
Thank you so much for posting the video of Maurice singing “Wildflower.” Always liked that song, and that album, and had never seen it. What a good, versatile voice he had. Maurice was indispensable to the Bee Gees not only as a singer but as an instrumentalist and arranger, too. What a shame we he was gone so young.
For me, Lennon had a sort of snarky vibe, but not a particularly “masculine” one at all.
neo:
Wow! There’s no arguing about taste or masculinity. If that’s the way your meter reads, that’s the way it reads.
But for me, Lennon had alpha-male-bad-boy-girl-bait written all over him. I could not in a million years, read Robin Gibb that way.
Boys wanted to be John and girls just wanted him.
huxley:
Once again, I must disagree.
I am of the exact age that the Beatles affected most – I was a teenage girl at the time. I remember the era very very well. I can assure you that nearly all my friends (and I) had only minor interest in John – it was Paul all the way, because he was “cute” and funny. Boys liked John best, because he was “cool” and edgy.
Also, having read quite a bit about John’s relationship with Yoko Ono later, she appears to have been very much the alpha in that duo.
I have nothing whatsoever against John, and I think he was mega-talented. But for me and the vast majority of the other girls I knew, he was not the Beatle with the sex appeal. That’s not to say there weren’t plenty of girls who had crushes on him – or Ringo or George for that matter. There was enough appeal to go around. And the girls I knew who were the biggest Beatles fans of all liked the entire group as a whole.
As for the Bee Gees, I was older in their heyday. But it was clear that Barry was the big heartthrob. However, it has become crystal clear to me also, from looking at a lot of YouTube comments about the BeeGees, that Robin had and has a huge group of female admirers who are utterly besotted with him. He changed his look a lot over time, by the way. If you’re interested, see this, for example (early 90s) or this. And read the comments to any video with Robin in it.
neo:
There were plenty of girls who wanted John. George and Ringo too, for that matter.
Yoko was later. She was the key which fit into John’s damaged heart. He called her mother and he meant it.
John was the indisputable founder and leader of the Beatles. Alpha male among three other alphas. “To toppermost of the poppermost!”, he exhorted the Lads. And that’s the way it was until the drugs and the unresolved pain brought John down.
Maybe I can’t speak for the girls, but for the guys … Paul? He was cute as hell and he was his own brand of girl-bait. We knew his kind.
However, John was the Guy who could cock a snook at authority, which we envied and was nowhere in Paul’s vocabulary. With Queen Elizabeth and Princess Margaret in the audience, it was John who made history:
____________________________________________
For our last number, I’d like to ask your help. Will the people in the cheaper seats clap your hands? And for the rest of you, if you’ll just rattle your jewelry…
____________________________________________
That goes beyond snark. That’s an alpha male challenge. Perhaps foolhardy. In other times or places, John could have been exiled, imprisoned or killed for that impertinence.
BTW, I enjoy trading shots with you on this stuff. Good clean fun.
huxley:
More fun than talking about politics, for sure.
But speaking for the girls, it was much more Paul.
John seemed to me to be like a perpetual teenager.Maybe something would have changed for him if he’d been able to grow old. But fate dictated otherwise.
neo:
John had a streak a mile wide of the “Live fast and die young” rock’n’roller. Who was the Beatle most likely to be assassinated?
Though I see him as fighting to grow until the end. As problematic (cult-like) as his relationship with Yoko was, he was trying to find balance and happiness, to be a good husband and a good father, then re-emerge as an artist.
Life is so short and we are so limited.
Neo said “Barry Gibb…looks great for his age (he’s 74 now)…”
My comment was based on watching a couple minutes of a TV show in passing, in which I didn’t recognize him until I realized what show I was watching.
I wish him the best.