Election 2020: those who think they are above the fray
I noticed a comment on another blog to this effect: “I can understand not voting if you don’t think either candidate should be president.”
That’s one of those statements that looks logical on its face but really is not, because (barring some very bizarre circumstances) one of these candidates will be president whatever you think. Of course, in the case of Joe Biden, Kamala might be president, but you’re voting or not voting for the ticket not the candidate. It’s a twofer.
If you choose not to vote, or vote third-party for someone with no chance, it should be because you honestly and sincerely feel you cannot decide which of the two main candidates would be better and which worse. Although that was a position that had some validity in 2016, I just don’t see how anyone can argue that today. So I view abstaining from voting this year as an exercise in virtue-signaling, a way to say “I won’t dirty my hands to vote for either of these extremely flawed humans. I am morally above it all.” And by taking such a stance in the real world rather than the ideal world of your imagination, you are in fact dirtying your hands by allowing others to possibly choose the worse candidate of the two.
People who live in deep deep red or deep deep blue states have a bit more of an excuse not to vote for either candidate, because they know (or think they know) how their state’s electoral votes will be alloted. But I still don’t think it’s a good excuse, because although the general popular vote doesn’t matter in the legal political sense it matters in the psychological political sense – as we’ve seen since 2016.
I don’t think you owe your vote to anyone. You can vote for the Libertarian or the Green Party chick or write in someone’s name.
What I can’t stand and don’t think is defensible are the people who justify not voting for Trump by demonstrating a deliberate and near-total ignorance of what he’s accomplished as President. No new wars. Peace deals in the Middle East. A booming economy and rising wages before the pandemic. Slashing regulations. Criminal justice reform. The list goes on and on.
If you have a problem with what Trump’s done, that’s one thing. But the way people are willfully denying his actual performance as President is not a great indication of intellectual or moral integrity.
Mike
We are careening towards a surveillance state like China, and will likely become one under the rule of president harris. If you live in a deep blue state and vote for Trump, your vote will likely come to light of the authorities under Harris. As this will result in the loss of your job and possibly your freedom, one must take steps to prevent this. The first is to register as a Democrat. The second is to vote for Biden, but if you are not willing to subjugate yourself that much, abstaining while registered as a Democrat will likely get you ignored by the powers that be after the Democrats take complete control of the country.
Not only that, it might shake some people loose from their stand on the National Popular Vote initiatives.
Agreed, Neo. I mailed in my ballot a couple days ago. In my fairly deep blue state (Washington) my Trump vote has no practical impact. But it’s symbolic impact on the popular vote result is important.
While I am fairly confident Trump is going to win the electoral college comfortably, the popular vote is much more of a wild card. I think he’s going to win it too, but I have less confidence in this than I do in his electoral victory. A popular vote victory will strike a severe blow at Democrat and media attempts to delegitimize his Presidency.
cardiwomp:
Methinks you are a concern troll. Nice try.
If you vote in person, the ballot is still secret. Not only that, but if the police state really comes into being, they’ll have a lot more ways to find out who isn’t on board than looking back to votes in 2020.
No one wanting to vote for Trump will heed your convoluted reasoning,
Not to tear open old wounds but … recall the fights of 2012 and especially 2016 that went, “(R) candidate just isn’t conservative/good enough for me so therefore, I will do my part to ensure that the (D) candidate wins.” You know, because the crazy lefty that the (D) party has put out there is so much more in line with conservative values, or something. (Actually, when you scratch these people, you find out that it’s about: ‘cuz I wanna show the GOP how reeeelllly angry I am with them,’ and/or ‘if I help tear down the existing GOPe, magically, in its place, will spring a powerful, true conservative party’.) That doesn’t seem to be so much of a feature here in this forum this time around, but I’m seeing a little bit of that in my rare trips out into social media with ads for various “Republicans Against Trump” groups.
The current D party is far left that actual Democrats should be a little uncomfortable not casting a vote against them. Anyone who claims to be anything to the right of Stalin who either votes (D), or wastes a vote on not voting or voting for a third-party candidate – all of which would be done 100% to virtue-signal at this time – deserves shunning.
I live in deep blue New York state. I’m voting Republican all down the line.
Better Red than Democrat.
Along with Ackler, I live in the fairly blue state of Washington and voted Trump and straight Republican down the line by mail as soon as my ballot arrived.
I also said no to every call for more $$, just for kicks (and pocketbooks). 🙂 As did my husband.
There are several family members that I would be delighted if they voted Green, Libertarian or Moon rock. Anything but Biden, because of how it would effect my perception of them. That is if I ever know how they voted.
As far as knowing who votes how. My older daughter, whose heart sometimes leads her down strange paths, voted for Perot. It turns out that there was one vote total for Perot in her County or precinct. Forgot which. She confessed. She might even have been proud.
Whiling away the late night hours, which is common among we octogenarians, I created a scenario in which all of the knee jerk anti-Trumpers in California at least had the intelligence and decency not to vote for Biden-Harris. So, they scattered their vote among several alternatives, leaving the door open for the Trump vote to take the state. Well, fantasies help pass the night.
I don’t think it is necessarily illogical to abstain from voting, or voting for a third party, in order to “send a message” to your preferred party that they should shape up. It does pose, with very small probability, a risk, of course.
It makes absolutely no sense to vote for the worse party in order to “send a message” to the better one.
Although that was a position that had some validity in 2016, I just don’t see how anyone can argue that today. So I view abstaining from voting this year as an exercise in virtue-signaling, a way to say “I won’t dirty my hands to vote for either of these extremely flawed humans. I am morally above it all.”
neo: I fight such arguments like hell. As far as I’m concerned, it’s a framing ploy, as in “I’ll tell you what the context is, what your options are and what it really means whatever choice you make. And if you reject my framing, that’s even worse.”
For a local example, it would be like putting MBunge in charge of my life…
Fellow conservatives in WA untie! or is it unite? 🙂
One can pray that King Jay is thrown out of Olympia!
Stay safe in Vancouver gwynmir, Antifa/BLM seem to have figured out how bridges work.
I only know one guy who has taken the “above the fray” option. He’s late forties, not quite matured into his age, but he seems truly to be trying to understand the world and it doesn’t make sense the way it used to. Yet he’s trying to meet it honorably.
Last week a big Trump demo drove past the cafe patio. Most of those drinking coffee are liberal and were unhappy with the demo. One got up and went to the road median to get close to the Trump drivers and give extravagant fingers to each and everyone.
My friend got up and walked away from the finger guy and the patio crew.
I see that as a win — for my friend’s integrity and for our side too. He won’t vote for Trump, but he’s not voting for Biden either and ordinarily he would vote Democrat.
Furthermore, I wouldn’t rule out his coming over to Republicans next time around.
I think a big part of one’s politics is the process and that ought to be honored. Abstaining could well be part of that process, however dissatisfying it might be to those who have already arrived at their certainty.
Interesting that there are so many from Washington State. Jefferson County Washington here. A blue county in a blue state. Yet according to this map:
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/upshot/election-2016-voting-precinct-maps.html#8.00/47.669/-122.349
The red part of a blue county.
huxley:
You don’t have to agree with me, obviously. I said it is my view that “abstaining from voting this year [is] an exercise in virtue-signaling.” I’m not telling anyone what to do. I’m expressing my opinion of what it means to abstain this year. Obviously it’s a matter of personal choice for everyone.
Actually, I’ve always been generally against 3rd party voting or write-in voting, but particularly when the choice is stark, and this year it’s more stark than I can ever remember. As I indicated, however, I think it makes more sense to vote 3rd party or write-in if a person honestly believes there is no way to tell which candidate is better and which is worse.
Sounds like your friend is in that latter category.
neo, huxley,
I was one of those “virtue signaler/framing ployers” in 2016. I could not bring myself to vote for either, so I wrote someone in. To those who claim people like me are fools and elections in the U.S. are binary choices, I don’t think that is true. I can almost certainly name two candidates that you simply could not vote for. If Hitler and Stalin were the choices on the ballot would you choose one, or not vote for either? I think everyone can face a scenario where it is not binary. I did not want Hillary to be President, nor did I want Trump to be President.
I voted for Trump this year for two reasons.
1) I was wrong about him. He has been very conservative from a policy standpoint. I agree with Andrew Klavan that Trump’s deference to the States in this pandemic has been unprecedented. I can’t think of another President in the past 100 years who would not have used the opportunity to enact more Federal control. (Maybe Calvin Coolidge?) He is appointing good judges. He truly cares about the nation. He takes his role of Commander in Chief seriously and is not putting our troops in harm’s way for experimental policies. He negotiates intelligently, firmly and successfully for America’s economic interests and he calls out nations that take advantage of us.
2) The Democrats are clearly a scarierer alternative. I did not realize what a stark difference there was between the parties 4 years ago. I did not understand how much of the party has been taken over by the far left. It is not “six of one, half dozen of another.” I felt I had to use my vote this year in the manner that would limit their power the most*.
*However I did not vote a straight, Republican ticket.
Thanks, om! I’m in a fairly out-of-the-way area, so hopefully no shenanigans.
And yes, would that there be a chance of defeating KJ!!
I voted Libertarian in 2016, because Washington was a lock for Hillary and I hoped the LP would get enough traction to realize they had to be serious and kick out the kooks.
Washington is still a lock for Biden barring a miracle, but this year I’m voting to shove their “but the popular vote!” bullsh*t right back in their faces.
Rufus T. Firefly: That was me too in 2016 and partly why I’m responding as strongly here as I am. I got sick of the Trumpist “Binary Choice” argument being forced upon me again and again.
Partly it comes down to what I keep saying — humans are not rational animals. We just aren’t and one only has to look at the world for a couple hours to realize that. One could argue that we could and we should be rational by willing it, but I see no evidence for it.
This age-old notion that one person can inexorably checkmate another with logical arguments about something as complicated as politics seems crazy to me.
Conservatives seem more prone to this cognitivist bias than liberals. I admire the idealism of it, but it’s really not how humans work.
Exactly the same here, Bryan Lovely. LP last time, Trump all the way this time in WA state.
I commented before I read all the other comments — it is odd that there are so many from Washington here, in addition to IIRC several from Oregon.
I don’t think Culp (R) for governor has a chance, and I fear that every single one of the tax increases on the ballot will pass. I hope enough sub- and ex-urbanites vote to keep the King County Sheriff an elected position, but that one will probably pass too and any counterweight against the absurd county council will be lost.
…and for those who think they are above the law….
Correction: who KNOW they are above the law.
And so we present, FWIW…(though a legitimate question would be, “Why now”? A second legitimate question would be, “Is anyone surprised?”….)
Anyway, “caveat emptor”:
https://www.theepochtimes.com/bradley-birkenfeld-obama-administration-covered-up-tax-evasion-scandal_3561990.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2020-11-02-3
I live in Maryland and in 2016 I wrote in Larry Hogan, which in retrospect was a big mistake. I shared the concerns of many that Trump would sell out conservatives at the first opportunity and his abrasive personality would turn off future Republican voters. I’m glad to have been so wrong. My Trump vote this year was easily my most enthusiastic given the alternative. If votes were weighted by the enthusiasm of those casting them, Trump would win in a landslide.
For the record I voted enthusiastically for Trump and a straight Republican ticket as well.
I asked for recommendations from a local Republican group on the judges and bond issues, but they were leaving that up to individual voters.
I skipped the judges and voted down all the bond issues, figuring that if there were good enough reasons for a bond issue to pass, it didn’t need my help.
I can understand how someone might flummox themselves into a quandry over which candidate to vote for/against. But I could never think very highly of myself if I didn’t choose, however poorly. Life often presents crises with poor binary choices – but not to choose, is a poorer choice still.
Matt Taibbi, in his most recent piece today about the choice of candidates this year, has stated that he is not casting a vote for President. Consequently, I think a little bit less of him, now. He’s got well over a thousand comments on this piece, so far.
“I did not realize what a stark difference there was between the parties 4 years ago.”
This is absolutely a fair point. Who, in early 2016, would have expected the extraordinary and absurd things we’ve seen from the Democratic Party itself – not just its fringe, from which we expect that kind of thing, but the actual party and party leaders – from November 2016 to the present day?
Matt Taibbi, in his most recent piece today about the choice of candidates this year, has stated that he is not casting a vote for President. Consequently, I think a little bit less of him, now. –Aggie
To me, Taibbi’s abstention is huge … even yuge!
I’ve been reading Taibbi since he was a hungry, deeply cynical expat hanging out in post-USSR “Wild West” Moscow. He is not normally a person to give Trump’s America any sort of break.
Furthermore, Taibbi is paying, and will pay even a higher price, among his comrades, especially if Trump wins.
“Who, in early 2016, would have expected the extraordinary and absurd things we’ve seen from the Democratic Party itself…”
Answer: ANYONE who was paying attention to the previous eight corrupt years of the rogue Obama regime.
Granted he was devious.
Granted he was utterly dishonesty.
Granted he had the media in his pocket (or rather they jumped into his pocket all on their very own); and THE MEDIA protected Obama and his regime with all the enthusiasm of the loyal cult they are.
OK, so these are mitigating factors….
Oh, and one last point: In 2016, how could anyone possibly give Hillary Clinton the benefit of the doubt?
Actually, I lied. This is the last point: To my mind, the 2016 election was a “simple” choice, pitting the known crook against the unknown crazy-ish man; the renowned and unrepentant gangster against the uncouth uncertainty.
For me that was a no-brainer. Obviously others felt differently….
But that was then. This is now. Let’s hope for some good news in the days ahead.
Eric Weinstein has abstained as well, according to his most recent podcast (a 4 1/2-hour conversation with Douglas Murray).
Matt Taibbi can do what he wants.
He’s already done more than enough. He’s probably thoroughly exhausted and he likely wants to salvage at least one friend (maybe two) when all this is over.
(And even that may not be certain.)
Thank you, Matt, from the bottom of my heart, at least. I don’t agree with your psychological need to denigrate Trump, but your sense of honesty and values—and COURAGE—transcends that of most of your profession.
I know several such people and they are insufferable. Too good to besmirch themselves by voting. They know Biden’s a joke/stand-in/muppet. They probably know (but cannot bring themselves to admit) that he’s utterly corrupt and the second provably corrupted candidate fielded by the Democrats. They dismiss Trump for the most shallow reasons. He’s not their brand. They will not admit to Trump’s many great achievements. Nobody they know (except me) is voting for Trump. Trump doesn’t look like someone they want to vote for. He’s not fashionable. He’s not seemly. He dyes his hair and his suits are too baggy. They are blind to his rhetorical genius and prefer to see it is “lies” and “stories” for the “rubes.” They refuse to see the lol humor in his presentation. And the courage in taking on the deep state. The talking heads on tv and in tech and other credentialed fools disdain him and call him a racist and a nazi. So he must be. Usually, they pick out a specific thing that Trump said and double down on the literal meaning of it in order to justify their disdain for him. That’s the extent of the argument. They are governed by tribal alliances and think their comfort cannot be disturbed. The fools. They don’t really care about the poor and the marginalized enough to abandon their prejudices and tribal alliances. They’ve signaled their support so that’ll have to do. The poor will just have to sacrifice.
I voted in 2016 for Gary Johnson. I had grave doubts about Trump’s ability to govern effectively.
I was wrong. Hell, I’m even beginning to like the guy…
But, the real issue is what he has done for the country and what he can do with another four years a strong mandate and (dare I say…) a Republican House.
Tomorrow, I will vote for Trump without hesitation.
There was never any doubt whom I preferred to win, but I was unsure of how I was going to vote.
I’ve voted Libertarian most of my life. I’ve always reasoned that my vote was going to have zero effect on the outcome. The only effect it was going to have was on my conscience. Despite the many goofballs the Libertarians put at the top of the ticket, their platform expressed my values better than any other party.
Then I realized two things. The first was the subject of Neo’s post. I realized that this time around I was trying to stay “above the fray”. The second was that I had to acknowledge that, inside, I was allowing myself to be intimidated by my liberal friends. I dread the shit that will rain down on me when and if they find out how I voted.
There are plenty of things I like about Trump and plenty I don’t. Can’t think of much I like about the other side. My vote was partly for Trump but mostly against Biden/Harris and totally consistent with my conscience. Virtue signaling and allowing myself to be bullied are inconsistent with my values.
To whom is an “above the fray” voter virtue-signalling?
Obviously not to Democrats. And obviously not to Republicans either. Who’s left?
God? Libertarians? One’s conscience? Everyone?
Seems to me that virtue-signalling involves a pay-off, but it’s hard for me to see a conventional virtue-signalling pay-off here.
Could it not be simple “Screw it” exasperation? I certainly understand that, but not as virtue-signalling.
One very good reason for voting in each and every election and for each and every office on the ballot is that a lot of men died to give you that right. And a whole lot of men gave several years of their young lives to preserve that right.
huxley:
Self-image above all else, plus also when asked “who’d you vote for?” the ability to state that you wouldn’t lower yourself to vote for either of these awful people.
RockMeAle:
I think that you have showed a very practical kind of wisdom this year.
huxley
By the way, I agree that for someone like Taibbi to abstain, it’s a victory of sorts. He actually is a leftist who detests Trump, but he hates the press just as much, so his not voting is a big deal and a statement of sorts, not just virtue signaling.
neo: However, I don’t consider that in the same league as the virtue-signalling we see among Democrats/SJW/etc types, which garners real-world pay-offs in terms of social status and possibly jobs/money as well as the equally serious real-world penalties of not being personally attacked, ostracized and canceled.
Nor, as I say, are you accounting for all sorts of other explanations such as “Screw it.”
Cap’n Rusty,
Not to minimize the efforts of those who fought to preserve freedom, but I have abstained from voting on issues where I felt inadequately informed. To me that seems ethical. Granted, it’s my own fault I was uninformed, but I felt correct in not registering an opinion when I felt insufficiently capable.
Well here’s a surprise:
https://twitter.com/JohnWHuber/status/1323410544603312128
huxley:
What does “screw it” mean, given the choices in 2020? An abdication of responsibility? Nihilism? Let it all burn? Some people never vote. I don’t understand them, either. Sheer laziness? Anomie?
I voted Jimmy Carter in ’76, and thought he was terrible. (As ex-Pres in support of Habitat for Humanity he’s been great. Hating Israel, terrible.)
So Libertarian in ’80 & ’84, and ran for state Rep as Libber in ’86 and Congress in ’88 (Ron Paul for Pres!) then left the USA.
“Nobody is telling the truth; nobody will lower your taxes;
nobody is working for you. Vote for nobody.”
Hated the lie of “Read My Lips” Bush ’41, but no vote in ’92, ’96, 2000.
Too busy raising a family, and Libbers were getting more crazy while I was becoming a better Christian, and married with 3 kids. Then 9/11.
2004 for Bush, against lying commie-genocide supporting Kerry (3 purple hearts! But how many days in the hospital?) Happy with Palin but knowing the Fin crisis meant McCain loses in 2008; actually thought Romney had a good shot in 2012. He seems like a clean guy, but such a NeverTrump snob. “Show me a good loser and I’ll show you a loser.” Vince Lombardy
Unsure of Trump but as a NeverHillary, it was easy 2016.
Have long now been a Trump 2020.
We should laugh at “conservatives” who don’t vote for Trump – what the heck do they really support?
We should laugh at Dem voters who vote for corrupt, senile Biden. I suggest asking them: Why did you vote for Biden? His corruption? Or his senility?
We should celebrate any and all “Democrats” who choose, this election, to NOT vote Dem. Because that’s a non-Biden vote. And Biden is terrible. Not hating Trump enough to vote for senile corruption (or is it corrupt senility?) might cause some hate-filled Dems to unfriend you, in VR and in real life too. Taibbi and all Dem walkaways need support.
If Trump’s not good enough? OK, he’s a loud mouthed braggart, known to be vulgar, practiced and excellent at insulting any and all who insult him or who treat him differently than he thinks he deserves. Great conservative policies, and pro-life, but problematic person.
80% he wins.
20% Biden wins. And things get worse. So get your sad laughter ready! But will Reps get more together and win again in 2022, when hate-Trump is gone and the radical left becomes Hate-Republican X ? None know, and I hope and pray to not find out.
How would Obi-wan say it?
“That Trump is our last hope”.
“No, there is another.”
There is a difference between these elections and the ones before.
One could say that all elections are important on the one hand, and one would be right. But some are more important than others…and this is the crux. One either “gets it” or one doesn’t—though how one could miss this I have no real idea. Still, it’s a free country and one doesn’t have to vote.
Me? I’m a “throw da bums out” type of guy. I see it as the essence of democracy. Of course, many elections are of that variety unless one is totally gung ho about one’s candidate. (The two “varieties”—throw da bums out and being gung ho about one’s choice—are not, of course, mutually exclusive.)
2016 exemplified, for me at least, a “throw da bums out” election, though in a far more significant way (the bums were far, far worse in 2016).
The 2020 elections are different because the way I look at it, they’re—very simply—a “save the republic” election.
And THAT makes ALL the difference.
What does “screw it” mean, given the choices in 2020?
neo: It means “Screw it, I’m a human being with limited time and mental capacity to figure out everything and I’m not doing this one right now, no matter how many other people think I should.”
Also, if we are including the stories one tells oneself for self-justification as virtue-signalling, then I submit, what isn’t virtue-signalling?
So, as “The Incredibles” might say, “If everyone is virtue-signalling, then no one is virtue-signalling.”
Betfair’s business model is supposedly a wager matching exchange: it brings together people who want to back and lay wagers and matches them up and takes a commission. That’s the official version. However it also has its own internal trading desk and a bunch of guys who play all manner of financial engineering games with the basic wagering that general public does on the platform.
Main motivation for having internal desk is of course sheer greed. If their traders are smarter than the public then they can do much better than just take bet matching commissions… they can themselves bet against the general public — preferably the more stupid ones.
Have just taken another look at my Betfair account. Betfair (i.e. their internal trading desk) is offering me about 99.5% refund to cash out my Trump-backing position now, whereas Trump is trading in the public wager matching market at 2.96 — so general public (i.e. Stupid People in market parlance) think Biden looks a winner (He’s trading at 1.5). IIRC I recall Trump trading about about 4.xx against Clinton at this time in 2016.
My aggregated position (not all bets taken at same time / price / amount) weights out just a fraction under 2.96
Take too long to explain why I think what I’m thinking as involves other things I’m seeing on the screen today, but short version is: I think that the big brains on the internal trading desk are keen to refund all positions paying out on Trump (so as not to have to pay out more if he wins) and are going all in laying Biden — i.e. counter partying late-betting Stupid People who think Biden is a Sure Thing who still represents positive EV at 1.5 (i.e. REALLY Stupid People!).
I find this heartening. And of course I’m not chickening out and taking the offered ‘refund’.
Were this a normal non-political market, it’s possible they’d be offering me a bit more than break even to cash out now.
Zaphod: As one of the Stupid People, I think you are saying, the Big Betfair Brains are persuaded Trump is the likely winner tomorrow?
Just checking.
Zaphod: Is there time to bet on Trump on Betfair?
I’ve said this here before, probably more than once, so, briefly: deep red state, voted 3rd party in 2016, willing to crawl up two steep hills (actual local geography) if necessary to vote for Trump this time because I think the popular vote compact is despicable.
In general, it does not matter what Americans vote for, given their slave status.
This time, however, the vote is more like a physical test. It is God deciding to judge Americans and see where the ywant to go. Hell or heaven. Dystopia or utopia.
Your choice.
Thank you, Matt, from the bottom of my heart, at least. I don’t agree with your psychological need to denigrate Trump, but your sense of honesty and values—and COURAGE—transcends that of most of your profession.
Hey Barry, just to let you know, that is a very good example of true sincerity on your part and real emotion.
It’s a nice contrast to the fake “I feel disappointed” line you tried with me before. Also compare and contrast these types of writings with the “trying to be clever fiction” you tend to write as replies to Ymar.
Actually, I lied.
Sometimes you do that enough you fool yourself. Although this time you may just be wrong vs a lie.
@Huxley:
Related:
https://townhall.com/columnists/wayneallynroot/2020/11/01/las-vegas-oddsmaker-announces-final-prediction-trump-electoral-landslide-coming-n2579146
Betfair allows in-play betting on the US Presidential Election… so betting doesn’t stop immediately the first polling stations open on the 3rd. How wicked is that?!
Not too late to have a flutter. Might be too late to open an account ab initio and do all the KYC. Not even sure that Betfair works for US based customers. But there are other markets out there.
I can’t claim to be an algorithmic big brain AI or even fit for a trading desk. But they way I’d put it is someone who can mostly clear their brain of partisan brain fugues for the duration of their wager reasoning process would conclude that a Trump Wager at (say) 2.94 has a better Expected Value than say 1.5 for Biden.
I think the possibility of almost doubling my money is reasonable, *but not great* compensation for taking on board the risk of Trump losing.
I believe that wagering platforms will have done much deeper (that’s easy) and more dispassionate (that’s very easy) analysis than I have. This because they have a financial incentive to do so in order to take positions against their ‘Stupid Customers’. Stupid Customers ™ of course don’t know who is taking the position against them. The money I wagered on Trump could have been matched by aggregated random Joe Public or the Betfair Trading Desk.
Or I could be the Stupid Customer for not taking the cash out deal and instead loading up more. Perhaps their algos have me figured for the kind of person who’d do just this, so they offered me the option 😛
Find out soon!
“Also, if we are including the stories one tells oneself for self-justification as virtue-signalling, then I submit, what isn’t virtue-signalling?”
Virtue-signaling is what it says. Taking an action or expressing an opinion to signal one is virtuous, even if that signal is largely internal. It’s not inherently malignant behavior. In its proper context and amount, virtue-signaling is known by names like “manners” and “decency.”
The problem with virtue-signaling is that it has been detached from traditional morals and ethics and any sort of rational cost/benefit analysis. “Defund the police” is virtue-signaling. The Green New Deal is virtue-signaling. Describing a riot as “peaceful protests intensified” is virtue-signaling.
Mike
Stay safe in Vancouver gwynmir, Antifa/BLM seem to have figured out how bridges work.
See, this is the kind of stuff that throws me off, Om, given your previous history here and as a human being (in terms of life judgment). Did someone walk into your body and take over your karma, because this type of positive emotion is not something I detected from you, at all, for years after 2015. I am sure you may have felt a positive emotion once or twice in life, but didn’t show it here in your treatment of others when you disagreed or got triggered by them.
Antifa/BLM has found out how the Divine blowback works.
Neo, I thought of another reason why someone might sit out: maybe there are monarchists who refrain from voting as a principled rejection of democracy. Actually, more than maybe – I knew one or two such. I think one of them passed away, though.
Well, I have here a bottle of Valpolicella – thought I would open it and drink to this blog and its members, and to all the fine candidates for election. Cheers!
https://www.zenato.it/en/costalunga-valpolicella-classico-superiore-doc.html
Well Huxley, no one made you come here to discuss your vote; and no one really cares how you choose to exercise your privilege. No one is pushing anything in your face.
In other words, do what you damn well please and no one will know, unless you choose to broadcast it.
I counseled my grandchildren thus. Your vote is valuable. Sure, it is one in millions and may have little effect in of itself. The value lies in your ability to cast a secret ballot. That is a precious privilege enjoyed by few throughout history. The privilege you enjoy was hard earned by others. But, it is now your vote. Use it as you choose. You do not have to answer to anyone about how you vote. All I ask of you is that you inform your self to the extent that you can, that you make your vote reflect your beliefs, and that youdo not spend your precious vote casually.
OldFlyer: Whoa.
My guess is you presume my position in this instance is “Screw it.” No, I was speaking of a hypothetical person who might take that position and not vote as a counter-example to neo’s argument that those who choose not to vote are virtue-signalling.
I did vote, which you would know if you read all my comments, and I’m guessing I voted the way you would like. Not that it should matter in this discussion.
However, I will defend those who say, “Screw it,” too. People have complicated lives and deciding their priorities at any time is even more complicated.
BTW, I don’t like being morally lectured to by Republicans anymore than I like it from Democrats.
I would prefer not to have conversations which involve demands like “All I ask of you…” We don’t have that kind of relationship. I’m not your grandchild.
@Oldflyer Well said and even as a youth of 78 whose relatives and American friends will all vote for Biden I have lived long enough to see the wisdom of your position. Thanks.
I’m also from WA; nice to see all of you. West siders? East?
funsize: southern part of West Seattle, a few blocks inside city limits.
(But strongly considering putting some money down on off-grid land out on the Kitsap Peninsula to have somewhere to flee to.)
I’ve always been a libertarian leaning conservative. My first vote was for Ike back in 1956. The only time I didn’t vote Republican for president was Ross Perot in 1992. Vowed never to vote third party again. And I haven’t.
Here in The People’s Republic of Puget Sound, I have sometimes voted for Democrats in local races where the Republican was clearly less qualified. Never again!
The performance of the Democrat mayors and governors of Washington and Oregon in failing to stand up for the safety and property rights of their constituents has created an anger in me that I had not felt in many years. (Not since 1975 to be exact. When the Congress abandoned the South Vietnamese. It’s a long story.) The very bone and sinew of our system of free markets depends on the government maintaining an atmosphere of law and order – protecting the businesses, employees, and customers from rioters, looters, petty thieves, and arsonists. It has been a compact between the government and private sector that makes wealth creation and prosperity possible. The Democrats in various locales all over the nation have violated the trust put in them by their constituents. Their contempt for their constituents is the most open and disgusting I have ever seen. I will never vote for another Democrat ever again. They have lost my good will and trust. It would take some major, major changes to ever win it back. The way things are going among the Dems, I don’t expect to live long enough to see those changes. Straight Republican ticket from now on. MAGA!
funsize:
East side, Tri-Cities (“Is there a desert in WA?” Well actually shrub-stepp semi-airid, as their eyes glaze over in disbelief.)
@ Barry Meislen re knowing who the Democrats were in 2016. I saw all the crookedness you refer to yet I was genuinely surprised when Democrats began begging the Electoral College electors to be unfaithful and vote for Hillary. That got my attention specifically because it overtly and unequivocally violated the rules of the game – the way spotting a rattlesnake on the back lawn makes everything different. I saw all the Obama skulduggery – the Gibson Guitar prosecution, Fast and furious, Lois Lerner and the Tea Party – even going back to my suspicions of the decisive release of Obama’s senate opponent’s messy divorce records. I’d mistakenly seen all that as politics as usual. I also see all the attempts to stop Trump by the Obama administration up until Trump was elected as politics as usual – even subverting the three letter agencies. What the three letter agencies did was clearly criminal from the beginning and they should have said ‘no’ just as they did to Nixon. But after the election what the Obama administration did was also criminal. I’m still a little surprised by that and even more surprised that they have never stopped. They have entirely lost any sense of existing in a legal framework as far as I can see and their supporters don’t seem to want to know or care. I hope that the provably criminal bureaucrats go to jail just like the Watergate miscreants. I would hope that the fire comes close enough to Obama that it disables his future political effectiveness. If they prosecute him – then Trump should pardon him if necessary. Same with Hillary or Biden because we have to get along in the future. A Biden victory will cover it all up but in my view that will just change how and when the consequences will work their way through our collective life as a nation.
huxley:
You wrote that “screw it” can mean “I’m a human being with limited time and mental capacity to figure out everything and I’m not doing this one right now, no matter how many other people think I should.” But in a previous comment I already mentioned two possibilities for a “screw it” point of view: abdication of responsibility, and laziness. Sounds like those two could fit, among others.
Nor do I think – if that’s the reasoning the person gives for not voting – that that person should vote. If the person doesn’t feel he or she can’t figure out who to vote for, then the person definitely shouldn’t vote. I think I also covered that attitude when I wrote in my post, “If you choose not to vote, or vote third-party for someone with no chance, it should be because you honestly and sincerely feel you cannot decide which of the two main candidates would be better and which worse.” I don’t see that as “screw it,” though – I wouldn’t have described it that way.
You also write, “Also, if we are including the stories one tells oneself for self-justification as virtue-signalling, then I submit, what isn’t virtue-signalling?” It’s not all the stories one tells oneself. It’s just “virtue-signaling” stories, particularly and especially when virtue-signaling is the main reason for your vote. For example, if a person likes Trump’s policies and thinks they are good for the country but thinks Trump himself is vulgar or icky and can’t bring him/herself to vote for Trump for that reason alone – and there are plenty of people like that – that’s the sort of internal virtue-signaling I mean. A person who knows Trump is better for the country but who doesn’t want to get his or her hands dirty by voting for the icky person.
As an overseas voter I vote from King County WA. My district voted 92% (as I recall) for Hillary in the last election. Despite these overwhelming odds I will vote again for Trump as a matter of principle. Like gwynmir I voted against all the initiatives that would raise taxes except for the funding for the metro expansion projects. I am a tunnel builder after all and can get behind that one. What I cannot understand is how such a bumbling nobody (KJ) can continue to be elected governor. What gives?
“People have complicated lives and deciding their priorities at any time is even more complicated.”
The men who stormed the beaches at Normandy had complicated lives, too. So do the people who pick up your garbage, care for your kids, and grow your food…all while making a lot less than some doofus who puts a ball through a hoop or plants his fat ass in some endowed university chair.
You know who else had complicated lives? The people killed through drone strikes conducted year after year with no Congressional or Judicial oversight. Or the Americans who killed themselves when they saw their future and their children’s future shipped overseas in the name of “free trade.”
“I can’t be bothered” isn’t an acceptable answer from a citizen.
Mike
Inarguable.
The Colorado ballot had 21 presidential contenders and a write-in space.
If this had not been a Flight-93-on-hyperdrive election, I might have voted for Kanye West, although Princess Khadijah was a tempting alternative.
We had the explicit choice to reject the legislature’s insane attempt to join the National Popular Vote compact, among other propositions, which mostly confirmed the absurdity of putting fine-tuning details in state constitutions.
The only value I can see in the NPV is getting to watch Democrats’ faces when Trump wins the popular as well as electoral vote.
I suspect the bookies have a much greater grasp of reality than the pollsters do.
Dennis Prager rings some of the same changes as Neo on “who to vote for” —
https://townhall.com/columnists/dennisprager/2020/11/03/hatred-of-trump-vs-hatred-of-the-left-n2579294
Byron York talks to some of those shy Trump voters in Pennsylvania — they include a lot of former Democrats, and especially people who either didn’t vote for Trump in 2016, or haven’t ever voted at all.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/columnists/yes-there-is-a-hidden-trump-vote
“They have entirely lost any sense of existing in a legal framework as far as I can see and their supporters don’t seem to want to know or care.”
Indeed. And that is “all ye need to know…”
Alas, it’s pathological:
– change the rules if/when it doesn’t suit you (and call it “fair” and/or “perfectly legal” and/or “patriotic”).
– try to destroy your opponent but deny them the right to fight back or even defend themselves (all the while wailing and thrashing and throwing adolescent tantrums; all the while calling it “fair”).
– lie 24/7 while calling your lies “Truth” and calling attempts to disprove those “Truths” “lies” and “fake news.
– insist that you are the “good guys”, the virtuous ones, in fact the epitome of virtue (and that YOU know what’s best for all Americans); therefore, anything and everything you do and say is perfectly justified. And incontrovertibly moral. And irreproachable.
– INSIST that because of all of the above, that YOU must have ALL the power.
Except that they’re paranoid (or behaving as if they were) and they’re acting out. And like all good paranoiacs they KNOW you’re out to get THEM, so the only “reasonable” thing to do is to get you first (see above). Which means that everything they do to you is legitimate and justifiable. And legal. And virtuous. And you are ALWAYS wrong, vicious, despicable, unjust, guilty. EVIL. (And if the Constitution prevents them from doing what they want, then damn the Constitution, which is therefore also EVIL and/or RACIST and which—of course—MUST be changed to suit their agenda, seeing as they are the epitome of morality and know what’s best.)
This is most certainly not the Democratic Party of yore (though one could say back then that they also took certain “liberties”; but they believed in the country and its laws).
This is a party “possessed” by a demon (or several).
And It must be exorcised.
Gee thanks Ymar.
It means a lot.
(It might even help me get through today. And tomorrow. And tomorrow. And tomorrow…—well, I never claimed I was original…)
Related:
“How Trump Survives a Coup: And how our form of government survives with him.”
https://pjmedia.com/instapundit/411387/
You should vote, unless you’re just voting Dem because your gf says you have to.
Then, either DON’T vote, or pull the switch for Trump.
I think Trump will win every state he won in 2016 + Minnesota for sure + likely a win among Nevada, New Mexico, and New Hampshire + perhaps a shocker like Virginia or another Northeast state. There will be enough electoral votes for a win to be declared tonight or tomorrow even if lawsuits drag in Pennsylvania. If Trump wins, the Senate stays Republican and the House likely goes his way too.
And George Soros, too—if the authors of this piece are correct—has his own well-made”plan” in place to get the “Transformation of America” (Inc.) back on track…
…by ensuring that Trump will lose this election: https://townhall.com/columnists/frankwright/2020/11/01/george-soross-plan-b-if-biden-loses-n2579176
H/T Blazingcatfur blog
According to which Trump MUST lose (which, as chance has it, is exactly what the AG of Pennsylvania said was going to happen in that state. As chance has it…)
But if, somehow, Trump does make it past the finish line then there is every reason to expect coordinated, concerted, widespread violence by trained cadres.
Lots of it.
I just got back from voting (I got in line at 5:45 AM).
Voted for Trump, Chele Farley (running against the loathsome Sean Patrick Maloney), and Mike Martucci (running against the clueless Jen Metzger).
I like Matthew M.’s (7:51 AM) positive outlook.
Vote. Don’t talk. Vote.
Biden already has his first sweep.
Dixville Notch, NH went 5-0 for the former V.P. and Senator
funsize: East Vancouver.
From someone who was there at the outset, a lucid explanation of the current predicament of the Mainstream Corrupt Media and the “news” it manufactures:
the MSCM has essentially become, like Anthropology. Social Work or Religious Studies, just another “woke” academic faculty of the Social Sciences:
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/israel-woke-religion
H/T Powerline blog
More than a faint whiff of Soros, rising:
https://www.foxnews.com/us/election-day-white-house-demonstrations-zoom-calls-shutdown-dc
Does no one above read Victor Davis Hanson in American Greatness?
Biden and Harris is a vote for a Roman Peace this century, organised to serve Chinese CCP totalitarian needs for security in the world.
Hunter Biden was paid $1 million to represent the head of Chinese Intel, Patrick Ho. The former Home Secretary of Hong Kong was buying a 14% and $9 billion Chinese interest in Russia’s state owned oil company, Rosnefft. The corrupt Biden clan was serving the CCP – not the USA.
A vote for Trump, by contrast, is a vote for Athenian Peace in this century,
similar to the past 70 years, where national interest and human rights reign supreme.
And as in the world, so inside The US: CommieCrats like Biden-Harris aim to turn the rich and poor neo-feudalist California into the USA and a one party state ur to benefit bureaucrat, public union interests and hangers on.
It’s as simple a choice as that.
Trump has revitalised the middle class. Income growth under Bush = $400. Under Obama = $1100. But under just 3 years of Trump = $5400. And an added $1400 for the working class credits of the lower middle class! Brilliant.
Growing income inequality for 20 years is reversed!
Trump is the People’s Tribune against the failed Globalist Ruling class — AGAIN.
Now that the economy serves the Middle Class once more, can the Corruptocrats be dethroned? Can our leading institutions be reborn, revitalised?
THIS IS WORTH VOTING FOR! Only energetic Trump can achieve this revitalisation of American Institutional decline.
For, like the Bourbon Kings, they have learned nothing and forgotten nothing.
VICTORY TO THE PEOPLE! DEATH TO THE RULING CLASS! THE FORGOTTEN MAN WILL BE FORGOTTEN NO MORE!
FOR THOSE WHO MISSED VDH
https://amgreatness.com/2020/11/01/donald-trump-counterrevolutionary/
EXCERPT, INTRO
Not exactly “crawling over broken glass” but right up there:
https://twitter.com/AdamCrigler/status/1323317127210848257
H/T Sidney Powell twitter feed
After reading about the large turnouts for Trump in recent weeks leading up to today I am cautiously optimistic thinking that Trump might actually hit a home run this evening knocking it out of the ballpark. Numbers so large that the cheating and fraud will not be enough, I don’t know, it could happen. At this time the need for talking and worrying about motives is over, just time to vote if a person has not already or don’t vote and then step back and wait for the numbers to come in. I used to make jokes about the electrical college but now I understand the wisdom of those folks years ago setting up the electoral system to pick a national leader. May the Good Lord have mercy on our souls today.
I can’t imagine abstaining in a public election. I can’t remember ever abstaining even from a private vote on a small board. I might do that if I were brand-new and thought I genuinely knew so little about a technical issue that it would be best to go with what the majority of other members thought. In that case, I’d feel honor-bound to get on board with whatever they voted for. It’s hard to imagine feeling so incapable of taking a position in a public election that I’d say, in effect, I don’t want to have any influence. Could I really conclude that my single vote could have no beneficial effect, however minimal? For the same reason, I won’t vote for a splinter party. I could be persuaded to vote for a third-party candidate if I could be convinced that he had at least a conceivable chance of winning, because you have to start somewhere. In primaries, I’m considerably more willing to take a flyer on a long-shot; again, you have to start somewhere.
If the candidates in any race really are all equally bad and literally indistinguishable, then where was I in the political organization process up to that point? Why didn’t I find a better candidate to support, why didn’t I run for office myself, why haven’t I been knocking on doors and writing more checks? My actions have consequences, but so do my deliberate inactions. You can’t escape the consequences of choice by abstaining. You can only hand your power of choice over to someone else: and if so, you’d better be clear about who that someone else is.
neo: OK. We’ll set aside the cases you say to exclude and we are left with … virtue-signaling to one’s self on account of one’s self-image.
That’s where the train jumps the tracks for me. As far as I’m concerned you have redefined virtue-signalling to include common garden-variety rationalization and self-deception.
I find “virtue-signalling” a useful term in the current environment where one is under real pressure to conform with real-world carrots and sticks and it involves signaling to real-world others accordingly. This goes beyond salving one’s internal image.
However, the definition of virtue-signalling is hardly nailed down and maybe your extension will become another numbered line in a future Merriam-Webster edition.
I think “virtue signaling” under pressure, like Havel’s green grocer, is a real issue and worthy of the name.
Yet also “virtue signaling” to show your virtue signaling peer group that you’re in the same tribe is a different but also useful idea.
In both cases, it’s the signal, not the actual “virtue” in question.
Tho in the case of Trump hate, the “virtue” is the hatred of Trump.
And in the signaling competition, the more hate, the more virtue, so there is competition to signal the most virtuous hate.
Similar to Mao:
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2020/11/fifty-years-ago-in-guzhen-china-15-year.html
Did you see Althouse’s response about not voting for either?
“Slothrop is distinctly wrong when he says voting is a duty. No. It is not. Like speaking, like religion, like getting married, like having sexual relations, voting is a right, and a right entails the power to decline to exercise it. It is horrible to be forced to speak, forced to take on a religion, forced to get married, forced to have sex — these are loathsome impositions. ”
https://althouse.blogspot.com/2020/11/ill-just-say-this-once-althouse.html
Since the vast majority of her real life social contacts are loud Biden supporting Dem haters of Trump, I claim she’s doing a half-virtue signal by not supporting Trump, but also keeping her hands clean in not supporting Biden.
Not mentioned above is the reality that, whenever you vote for a winner, you get the whole package. What you liked and wanted, and what you didn’t like. With Bush, we got Abu Ghraib, and almost losing Iraq, before the surge. (Not so great since, but it was never going to be easy with Sunni-Shia hatreds.) Plus the housing boom/bust and financial crisis. As a Libber voter, I was always happy not to have voted for the guy who was making one mistake or the other.
Neither Demopublicans nor Repocrats.
The parties really are a lot more different now, so the differences in who wins are, unfortunately, becoming more important.
Saddam, Qusay, Uday can’t be reached for comment. Abu Ghraid keeps me up at night too (not). Talk about virtue signaling.