On being late
First, a confession: I am habitually late. But only a little bit – usually between five and ten minutes.
I have never been late for a plane. I have never been late when it really really mattered. But I am consistently late for other things, and this is the case even though it’s not something I’m aiming for and in fact I’m often trying very hard to be on time.
I’ve known for many years that one big reason I’m late is that I try to do too much. I know, I know; that sounds like the classic self-aggrandizing type of excuse (“I’m late because I’m just so intent on packing in a lot of tasks”), but it’s true. I tend to think I have time to squeeze in one more errand, and I usually don’t, but I never learn.
That must mean I’m some sort of optimist about time – which is really odd because most people would not say that optimism is one of my most salient characteristics. But it seems I usually underestimate the amount of time it will take me to do something, overestimate my own efficiency, think that traffic and parking will be easier than they really are, and assume that the traffic lights will turn green rather than red.
But the other day I arrived early to something, and it struck me (not for the first time, either) that part of my problem is that I don’t really like being early. I don’t like sitting in a theater waiting a half hour for it to fill up. I don’t like cooling my heels at a restaurant until the other party shows. I don’t like waiting in line for the doors to open. It’s not that I consider these things dreadful or intolerable, but they make me uncomfortable and antsy.
Of course, you might say I sacrifice my friends’ comfort to preserve my own. But that’s not really true, either, because – at least consciously – I really am trying to be on time, and I feel bad when I’m late and keep someone waiting, even if for only a few minutes. So there are two feelings at war with each other: the desire for punctuality and to spare the other person, and my own time-budgeting weaknesses and impatience at waiting. I must be trying to hit that exact sweet spot between the two, which I actually sometimes achieve but mostly don’t. Ater all, it’s a very tiny target.
I seem to be ruled by Hofstadter’s Law, which goes like this:
It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter’s Law.
Since moving to California some 7+ years ago, my wife and I have coined the phrase, “California time”, because so many simply cannot, or refuse to try to, be on time–for anything. Neither my wife nor I can stand to be late. We are usually early for appointments and scheduled events, and don’t mind. Kind of old fashioned, I suppose.
Maybe one reason Californians are always late is because they have to stop to get their ubiquitous coffee or bottled water. Coffee in church is a new concept to me.
Neo, I am often five to ten minutes later than I want to be, although I’m working on it. In my case, in addition to all the other things you mention, I struggle with procrastination, if it’s something I don’t really want to do.
German proverb: if you cannot be on time be five minutes early
Maybe you just like to make a grand entrance.
I’m to the other extreme in that I’m almost pathological about being on time. Not way early but on time. Oh, the amount of time I have spent sitting in the car waiting to go in to some event or whatever. Many years ago I was in a relationship with someone very much the opposite and it was a serious issue between the two of us. She just didn’t think it was that big of a deal if people had to wait on her. It wasn’t the reason the relationship ended but I sure didn’t miss that when it was over.
I prefer running late after the party’s gotten started. That way people genuinely look like they are happy to see me.
Reminds me of Tom Coughlin who was the former Super Bowl winning coach with NY Giants and until recently he was president of the Jacksonville team and he required all clocks to be five minutes slow and if you were on time you were late. Very unpopular policy with everyone and when he was fired the first thing that happened was the clocks were set to the correct time.
It’s passive aggressive behavior, and since it’s extremely rewarding to the person who is always late, it’s a habit that’s very hard to break.
I’ve known for many years that one big reason I’m late is that I try to do too much.
My sister has continually been late for visits with our brother and his wife. It is an irritant with our sister-in-law, who likes to have her meals on the table on time- and she is also an exceptionally good cook. One time when I was at my sister’s, I found out why she was late. In spite of entreaties from me and from her husband to just get into the car, she would find things to do.One final cleanup or task that, had she delayed until she returned, wouldn’t have made any difference. I am reminded of the old line that some parents used to tell their children- always leave the house with clean underwear, because you never know when you will end up in the hospital from an accident. Similarly,my sister apparently was under the impression that her house would be inspected before she got home, and she wanted to make sure everything was tip-top.
I didn’t like having to be outside for the bus to high school at 7:25. My senior year, I would get out of bed at 7:40, be out the door at 7:45,and hitch the 8 miles to school for the 8:15 bell. I got to school on time.
Five to ten minutes late is annoying but is something up with which I can put…
I had a couple genius friends (as they considered themselves, though their IQs were formidable) who were regularly 30-60 minutes late because their time was so very important. Of course the flip-side was that my time wasn’t important, which I wasn’t keen on.
I’m no longer friends with those guys.
huxley:
Lateness of that magnitude is a whole nother ballgame.
Griffin:
Actually I’m not at all one for grand entrances. The situation almost always involves meeting one person for something. It’s very low key.
If it’s a regular occurrence then to me that’s pretty rude and is in some way a FU to everybody else. Occasional is no big deal and of course now in the age of cell phones it’s easy to text ‘where are you’ to the late person. In the olden days you had to just wait. And wait.
Neo- Yeah, I’m sure. I have known some people that get off on being the one that dictates when things start.
I forgot to mention that very few people I know are on-the-dot punctual. I have one friend who is, though, and I make an extra-special effort in her case. Usually I manage to be only one or two minutes late for her. In rare instances I was on time. A triumph!
People vary in what they consider “the time” to do something. I have some friends who,when we visit for dinner, put the hot meal on the table and call the rest of us. Then they scurry around getting the rest of the meal ready, including taking out the dessert if it needs a few moments to warm up.
So we’re sitting there watching the roast cool and the fruit salad put into a serving bowl….
So, naturally, we don’t show up on the first call and hang out a bit longer. Our hosts’ solution is to call earlier.
I have seen people who’ve left a couple of things on a counter for a week hustle around to pick them up and put them down someplace else while we’re in the car.
No idea why.
I’m generally on time, possibly because I have an instinctive correction factor for the creek rising.
Hey Neo, I do the same thing so it must be a perfectly fine habit to have, right? In my case I’ve realized that I am often out of the door later than I planned because I try to do too many things, and I do THAT because I always have a little internal competition going with myself. If I normally take a shower and get dressed in about 20 minutes, then surely I can empty the cat box before I shower and still be ready in twenty minutes? And since I’m confident that I can fit all that into twenty minutes, then I’m tempted to also reply to a few texts before I empty the cat box and take a shower… My husband is as reliable as an atomic clock to be on-time, and he has taught me a valuable saying: “Everything takes longer than it takes.” It helps me a lot to remember that!
Also, arriving late assures that you have an audience for your entrance and apologies for being late. Sorry to say this Neo, but there is a bit of “Drama Queen” in this behavior. It’s not terribly unusual and you were in the performing arts, which makes it almost a cliche.
I suspect that all of your friends rather expect this of you and no longer pay much attention to the excuses and apologies. It’s okay. They like you anyway. We all have our quirks. I certainly do, though I’ve learned not to apologize for them so much.
“Everything takes longer than it takes.”
So true.
Nothing ever happens as quickly or smoothly as one assumes.
Until it does – and then you get somewhere too early and have to sit around.
I have decided to no longer be at the movie theaters on time, as the show I want to see invariably follows 30 minutes worth of previews.
So, of course, on my next trip, the main attraction will almost surely start promptly.
There might also be tiers of events involved here too.
Informal family gatherings are not as big a deal as maybe specific events.
Get together or meals with friends are maybe a step up because they may be a little more structured and involve people who are making time out for you.
Doctor appointments or other professional appointments are a step higher and may have consequences for being late and I have found the habitually late seem to pull it together for these.
And finally I would say work or business events where jobs or livelihoods are at stake are the highest level.
In my experience the habitually late seem to handle the last two much more than the first two so maybe it’s a mix of fear and lack of consequence that drives the tardiness.
Roy Nathanson:
Actually, you couldn’t be more wrong. It’s kind of funny, but I do not like any sort of spotlight. I never could act, and hated being on stage as a dancer. I preferred dancing in class, watching dance, writing about dance, and teaching dance. I once dropped a college poetry writing course because we were required to read our own work in front of the class. Surely my basic shyness should be apparent from the photo on my blog, with the apple covering my face?
Usually when I’m late for something, there’s no audience at all. No one is waiting, because it’s not a social engagement. For example, my specialty is getting to a store or the post office or the library and finding the door has just been locked. There is no audience whatsoever – which is a good thing.
I don’t have some sort of mad social whirl with groups of people waiting for my grand entrance. As I said, most of my socializing is done one on one, and I’m just a few minutes late for lunch or something of the sort. No one cares all that much, and there’s no grand entrance. The person might be sitting looking at her cell phone and doesn’t even notice I’ve come in till I sit down and greet her, Sometimes I’m there first even though I’m 10 minutes late, because the other person is 15 minutes late. As I said in a previous comment, the great majority of my friends are not especially punctual. I don’t think it’s ever been much of an issue. If a person is a half hour late, that’s another story.
They almost didn’t allow me to graduate High School because I missed homeroom attendance so often. Turns out exhaustion from mono overcomes fear of consequences.
And consequences were many. But the reward was, if I was a little late the trains were less crowded and I could get a seat for the hour and a half commute each way—instead of passing out. Thus began my life of crime.
I enjoy being early.
Especially if meeting my wife, so that I am there “protecting her” from the moment she arrives, though we do not actually lead adventurous lives.
I also like to scope out the meeting place. And, well, I have an iPhone and a rich inner life, a contemplative nature so the time can always be pleasantly filled.
neo,
You are a girl, real boys expect you to be late.
Neo,
I apologize fo making assumptions.
Personally, I am like JimNorCal this way. I dislike having my schedule too crowded and I enjoy being able to savor my interactions with the world.
Neo,
You have described me to a “T,” and like you, I too hate attention. I’ve tried to figure out the cause for my whole life and have developed similar theories to yours. I certainly am a person who “does too much,” and tries to pack too much into each day.
Having a family has helped a great deal. Knowing my kids would need help had me getting ready ahead of time so I could tend to them.
Like you, I don’t fully understand it, but I am sure those who posted theories that the behavior is founded on selfishness, rudeness or a desire to garner attention are wrong. I have worked through those theories and others many times. My behavior in all other things is the opposite, and no one who knows me would use any of those adjectives to describe me. I do know my mother’s, mother had the same trait, only worse (one of the most humble, selfless humans I have known, also abhorred the spotlight), although my mother does not.
I have worked in many foreign countries and the concept of what “on time” means is certainly cultural. The Germans and Swiss do take it seriously and literally, including not being early. Punctual is their goal. Brazil and Mexico? 15 minutes late is early. Extremely nice, generous people, but keeping people waiting is not viewed as an inconvenience.
Eva Marie,
It’s not rewarding. I feel miserable if people have been inconvenienced due to my behavior.
Both my parents and my in-laws were habitually late.
My wife and I are almost always early. We do wait at least half an hour before getting to a party.
Our children are all habitually late.
Go figure. Maybe it skips a generation?
I’m the same way. The only way for me to be on time is to try to be early. I don’t like being early either but I am trying to get used to it. I’ve noticed that the more anxious I am, the more I tend to be late. In those cases I should slow down and do less, but unfortunately I do the opposite (change my clothes, etc). I was late for an important lunch last year and I still feel bad about it. I forgot the presents I was planning to take, too, which really annoyed me. The main reason I was late is that I was traveling and I hadn’t been able to get my husband on the phone on arrival and he called right before the lunch. Later I wondered why I didn’t just say “hi honey, I’m so glad to hear from you but I have no time to talk, I’ll call you in a few hours.” Anxiety makes me stupid.
I have a friend who is always late. She isn’t a busy person, she’s just naturally late somehow. You can count on it, usually about 20 minutes. I either arrive late myself or take a book.
Another friend was almost always very late, at least a half hour, because we always met after work and she was always way overworked and also bad at estimating time. Once we met on a weekend and I was astonished that she was on time. So it really was the work thing; probably paired with anxiety. (She just retired and moved away; perhaps she’ll never be late again…)
Another friend of mine is always early with dinner. A few hours beforehand, she asks everyone about it, and establishes that dinner will be at, say, 6. Then at 5:30 or so she calls people to the table. This happens roughly every single time. The funny part is that her husband complains about it. Apparently it has not occurred to him to just make the adjustment in his head (which is what I do when I’m at their house).
People are funny about time!
And we have some very strong feelings about it. I was a little surprised to see the insulting responses here; to be charitable, perhaps they are based on people’s experiences with other late people.
My wife is always late. It used to make me angry, but since I’ve retired, I just try to let it go. she is routinely 30 minutes late for a dinner invitation, around an hour late for a party, and has even missed international flights because she could not get to the airport on time. She is even late for things she loves, like taking care of her horses. I think it’s a passive-aggressive thing with dinners that she really doesn’t want to go to, but can’t explain why she is late for her horses too. After 55 years of marriage, I know she will not change now and realize there’s no reason for me to raise my blood pressure.
Rufus, I’m sure it does make you miserable – and no theory about human behavior is right 100% of the time. But think back to when it started and look at it through that prism. It might be helpful. We humans have a lot of coping mechanisms and some of them make us miserable but they’re the best we can come up with at the time.
Is time measurement merely one of a number of distinctions characterizing the divide between moderns and ancients? From some angles, for instance, we moderns can appear nearly enslaved to our time measuring: we can’t do without it. And I don’t mean that about the ordinary conduct of life neo is here speaking of (although there is an element of that too), but rather about certain scientific endeavors which are simply impossible without those aforementioned atomic clocks, or other exceedingly time measuring dependencies, as in war fighting, say.
Anyway, that’s just to push outward a little bit, occasioned by the thought.
Eva Marie,
No offense, but it is surprising that you seem so certain you know me better than I do myself. I assure you I have spent an incredible amount of time trying to diagnose the cause or causes, including what you suggest. There is no deep seated passive aggression, nor surface passive aggression in my personality or behavior.
As Neo wrote, oftentimes I am late because I am doing helpful things for others. Actually, that’s almost always the case. And I sincerely feel awful if my improper time management affects others. And, as I wrote, the best method I’ve found to avoid tardiness is to task myself with ensuring someone else is on time. If I feel I am helping another get to an appointment then I will be prompt.
sdferr,
Because of my ineptitude I have thought a lot about the nature of time and time management and agree it is not likely anything that’s evolved into our DNA, apart from huge, macro events, like sunset, sunrise or the change of seasons.
I love Autumn and always get incredible energy then. My best guess is my ancestors divided their time between latitudes, requiring annual, nomadic migrations.
There was no such thing as a 10:15am meeting until, perhaps, the mid-18th century, when some work places would have a clock visible to employees. For 99.9999% of human history people functioned like all other animals. It’s probably not coincidence the Industrial Revolution coincides with a profundity of accurate and inexpensive clocks and watches.
Some of our closest friends whom we dine with often are habitually late. Our solution was to take the initiative to make the reservations and tell them that they were 15 minutes earlier than actual. That cut down on the waiting time for their arrival.
Let me help your lateness with an earworm. Thanking me in advance:
I’m late, I’m late for
A very important date.
No time to say hello, good-bye,
I’m late, I’m late, I’m late
I’m late and when I wave,
I lose the time I save.
My fuzzy ears and whiskers
Took me too much time to shave.
I run and then I hop, hop, hop,
I wish that I could fly.
There’s danger if I dare to
Stop and here’s a reason why:
I’m over-due, I’m in a rabbit stew.
Can’t even say good-bye,
Hello, I’m late, I’m late, I’m late.
Hello, I must be going
I cannot stay
I came to say
I must be going
I’m glad I came
But just the same
I must be going, la-la!
I’ll stay a week or two
I’ll stay the summer through
But I am telling you
I must be — going
Synchronize your sundials, gentlemen: we attack at midnight, sharp.
Passive aggressive with classic justification, as it is you that book your time
Life is a precious thing, and the one thing we all equally have is a 24 hour day
people who are late are termites of others time, denying THEM the extra time that they deny they have because they over stuff their life. After all, what can a waiting someone do to get the life they lost back except regret and forget losing it?
Sorry, there is no sugar coating being late. It’s rude and selfish and there is really no excuse unless it’s physically beyond your control. Try using excuses serving in the military or other careers where being on time is necessary.
Retired fireman here. My specific department doesn’t punish lateness the way most para-military, civil service jobs do. If you made a complaint, it was taken seriously and punished, but it was usually handled “in-house”.
One “body” relieves another body. In other words, I know that I can’t leave until John Smith gets here…..we must have the correct number of guys.
Well, early in my career I saw actual fistfights because of lateness. It was usually because of a chronic issue. People late for work would not pull over to use a pay-phone to explain the lateness. The cellphone seems to have calmed the physical animosity a bit….no excuse for not calling or texting now.
I had 2 guys that were religiously late to relieve me during my career. One absolutely thought that his time was more important than mine. The other was always “over-booked”. Funny thing is: the over-booked guy never apologized, the self-important guy always did.
I think that people are complicated. You would have to do psychiatric evaluations and probe family histories and marital situations to get to the root of the problem.
For my last 6 or so years I had a great relationship with the guys that I relieved and who relieved me. On holidays sometimes I would get or give 2 hour early relief depending on who had a family event planned. I had some incredibly kind co-workers.
Much different than meeting for coffee, I know, but lateness was and is a huge part of civil service work….I’ve witnessed life-long grudges over it.
Never late getting my wife to doctors’ appointments except in rare circumstances involving traffic upon which we are sure to call the office to warn them of our tardiness. My wife, now being disabled in a wheelchair, I am keenly aware how rude people are despite the Americans with Disability Act (ADA) and our uber-sensitive culture. Not too long ago we were invited to a party where the hosts knew of her disability yet booked a room that required climbing a dozen stairs. Also of note, my former boss is half German/half English, now resides in Berlin. He is chronically late. I was never fond of traveling with him as we always ended up sprinting down the concourse to the airline terminal.
Rufus and sdferr,
There was a period in U.S. history when every significant town kept its own clock (like a sundial). Then the railroads sprung up, eventually including the transcontinental. Then there was an act of congress or something, and the time zones were created, so that the trains could actually run on time without a huge effort in tracking the correct time. (Not sure about the evolution in other countries.)
I slightly dislike having to kill 15 min. because I’m early. I absolutely hate being more than a couple minutes late. I could layer various other rationales onto the issue, but the previous sentence captures the essence of why I’m almost always early. Or maybe a person can just get comfortable in their current space, and dislike the transportation and related discomfort of it. But I suspect that if you focus on how you feel about being in the different scenarios, that you will get closer to the heart of it.
Time does not seem to be a strictly human concern, as I used to think.
My dog has a very prompt internal clock. Every day at 4:30 on the nose he reminds us that it’s time for his dinner.
Maybe the secret of promptness is a regular feeding schedule?
I find it curious how many punctual people seem to be really really angry at even those who are only 5 minutes late.
In my actual life – as opposed to my cyber life – I know very few people who are hyper-punctual and who would care in any real way if a person is 5 minutes late for an open-ended get-together where the goal is to chat, socialize, and have fun, without any strict time limitations.
I think some of these differences may be regional or cultural (for example, when and where I grew up it was considered somewhat weird and perhaps even rude to arrive exactly on time for a party).
Or perhaps this blog for some reason seems to attract a higher-than-usual proportion of very punctual people. As I’ve written earlier, in my non-cyber life I only have one friend who is very punctual. In fact, even if I’m a few minutes late it’s not unusual for me to have to wait for the other person for a few more minutes, which doesn’t bother me in the least. In my life now, most of the people I know are older and don’t have deadlines or tight schedules. When I wrote in the post that I didn’t like cooling my heels waiting for someone in a restaurant, I was thinking of the amount of time I’d mentioned in the sentence right before that – waiting for a half hour – not five or ten minutes, which just doesn’t bother me.
I am not late for planes, because one has to get there 2 hours early, and five minutes of lateness simply doesn’t matter in a situation such as that. And looking back on it, I don’t think lateness has ever been a problem for me in a work situation for a simple reason: the jobs I’ve had have been ones in which I am solo and set my own schedule, or solo enough that when I arrive at the job is considered my business as long as I put in the requisite hours, and whether I got there at 9 AM or 9:05 AM simply was not an issue of any kind to anyone. When I saw clients at a clinic, I had to get there long ahead of time anyway to prepare the room, look at notes, all sorts of paperwork and/or housekeeping type things, so lateness or earliness was never an issue because if I had a client at 2 PM, let’s say, I would figure I’d have to get there at 1:30. So whether I arrived at the dot of 1:30 or at 1:35 was once again, no biggee. No one was waiting. It’s only for lunch dates and that sort of thing that the interpersonal issue even arises for me.
As I said in an earlier comment, the vast majority of my lateness involves only me and is not interpersonal at all. If I’m always trying to squeeze in a task, I might be trying to do something quick at the post office and hoping to get there at 4:50 PM before it closes, but I run into a long red light or some extra traffic and get there at the dot of 5:00 PM and bam! That post office door is locked. Very annoying to me, but hardly inconsiderate of anyone else at all – I’m the one who loses out, and I’m the one at fault.
I am beginning to think – from the evidence in the comments to this post – that there really is a big divide between the extremely punctual population and those who are not, and that even 5 minutes of lateness is nearly as annoying to the punctual as much more extreme lateness. For me, unless someone is very late, I really don’t care, and I don’t care if I sit an extra 5 minutes in a restaurant waiting (a half hour is a different story). I figure perhaps the person ran into unexpected traffic, or had some sudden digestive or other physical issue. If the person is going to be later than 10 minutes, a phone call of explanation usually suffices, but I only know one person who is habitually later than that. And of course I always call on the rare occasions I find myself caught in a big traffic jam or something of the sort, and expect to be more than just a few minutes late.
It’s completely different if there is a group of people waiting, especially a team on a job, for a task that requires absolute punctuality. But I don’t have that situation in my life. It surprises me that a person might require that sort of absolute punctuality in his or her casual social life, as well.
Is it one of those “never the twain shall meet” things, where there are two groups with utterly different attitudes towards being punctual? That could be a big problem in a marriage, but in my marriage we were both slightly late, so unless the lateness became extreme in one person or another, it didn’t matter all that much. But I know a couple in which one person was very punctual and the other not, and it did cause big problems.
I also wonder whether this punctual vs. slightly-late thing has any correlation with whether a person is a day person or a night person. I suspect it might, with day people more likely to be punctual and night people more likely to be among the slightly-late.
Oddly, revealing post
“Bless me Father for I have been late”
Are you seeking penance … or Salvation?
Esther:
Funny thing, my dog wasn’t like that at all. Maybe he was used to more variation. He also had a remarkable ability – until he got very old – to go for long periods of time without drinking or peeing. We’d leave him alone with a full bowl of water, be gone many many hours, come home, and that bowl would still be full! Then he’d greet us happily, and then go to his bowl and take a huge drink.
I am pretty sure he slept while we were out. He also didn’t ask to go outside right away on our return. He was a small dog, and we used to joke that he must have had a bladder that took up most of the space in his body.
q. ruqt:
See my comment right above yours.
“Time for your bath”, he says to his timekeeping dog, who, oddly enow was suddenly nowhere to be found.
DonKeyoti et al,
I have always had a stellar work record, including rarely using sick days or even vacation. I’m often the last to leave the office.
Neo is exceptionally competent. She has more degrees than a thermometer. This isn’t about laziness, indifference or sloth.
Just to add a data point, I’m extremely punctual, well I prefer to be 5m early. I think it is rude to be late as it shows little respect for the other party’s time.
My wife, on the other hand, is habitually late. I know it’s a control issue for her. She also greatly dislikes being even a few minutes early for a movie, etc. After 38 years I’ve learned to live with it, but internally it still grates on me.
Rufus T. Firefly:
Thanks.
Did you read my 2:30 PM comment above?
And are you by any chance a night person?
Taking the est Training back in the seventies made me much more punctual. In the est world every agreement was practically a blood oath. You were constantly exhorted that the quality of your life was a matter of Keeping Your Agreements. If you didn’t do so, your life would suck. If you did, you would eventually rise to a magic level where things would happen just because You Said So.
If you were late for an est seminar, you had to undergo an interrogation — “Are you late?” “Did you have an agreement to be on time?” etc — before they would allow you to enter the seminar room. The number of latecomers was an important statistic for each seminar and seminar leader.
Frankly, I still believe some of that. I think a big problem in the world is people saying one thing, doing another, then pretending it doesn’t matter.
I find it odd how many folks here are convinced their preference is precisely right. My wife is German, and she often wants to get to social events early, and I always have to explain that can be rude. More than once we’ve gotten to a party when the hosts were still preparing. If a party starts at 7 most people cannot handle all the invitees arriving at 6:55 or 7. They expect a steady trickle.
And this isn’t about competence or consideration. I know some sincerely, extraordinarily nice people “widow’s mite people,” who are late for everything and many of the incredibly punctual people I know are stingy and self-centered. Some are even passive aggressive.
My father is always early yet awful at managing his own life. I remember many nights when he’d come home drunk at 3am, puke for an hour, but be put the door at 7 and at his station on time. Never planned beyond the next 5 minutes, but if you need a lift to the airport he’s your guy.
Neo, yes I did.
I’m unique in that I can go either way. I’m a great night person. I love the Sky Masterson number, “My Time of Day.” But I also love starting the day off early. Camping, sailing, a long road trip, bike ride, run… Watching the sunrise.
I can’t do both simultaneously, and I tend to shift back and forth. My wife is more of a night owl, so I tend towards that more often so we can socialize at day’s end. My friends probably think of me more as a night owl. I’m usually alone when I’m the early bird.
My mother’s mother, who shared my struggle with punctuality was an affirmed night owl.
Thinking about this maybe part of my strong tendency to be on time comes from many years of playing in golf tournaments where being late for your tee time can lead to penalty at least and at worst disqualification. This is the one thing every golfer knows is a must. I’ve known a lot of golfers that have partied the night away to the extreme but they made their tee time the next morning.
So maybe part of this is conditioning and being in situations where being late is a big no-no as opposed to other professions where it’s not such a major requirement.
huxley:
I certainly believe in keeping my agreements. I am exceedingly reliable, almost excessively so, about that.
I just don’t consider that an arrangement with a friend to meet “around 1 PM” for lunch is a sacred vow in the sense of a promise to arrive on the dot of 1. Nor do most of the people I know, some of whom often are a bit late themselves.
And what about the situations I’ve talked about where there is no interpersonal nature to the lateness because no one else is involved?
By the way, in the above comment of mine, spellcheck tried to change “sacred vow” to “sacred cow.”
Griffin:
That makes sense.
I think another element is the general culture in which a person is raised and/or lives.
There are many good reasons to criticize the est Training, as well as its kinder, gentler successor, the Landmark Forum. But I still consider the emphasis on agreements to be golden.
In the first morning of the Training the leader explains the agreements (which you already knew when you signed up) — be on time, not take notes, turn in your watch at the door, etc..You think from your seat that this is just some boilerplate preliminary before the leader gets on with the real Training/Forum.
But no! It goes on for hours. Because each time the leader cites a rule, he/she asks for questions, and there are inevitably a raft of people who raise their hands to ask, “But what about…?”, “How come?”, “I have this condition…” or otherwise explain how the rule doesn’t apply to them. It’s horrible … and enlightening.
Quite a lot of people could turn their lives around by simply doing what they say — keep their agreements with other people and with themselves — instead of making excuses for why they don’t.
neo: I was explaining how the Training works and my response to it.
Like Christianity the Training is supposed to be about one’s choices, rather than judging others on whether they live up to one’s standards.
In practice I always carry a book, notes, paper or a computer with me to make use of what spare five-minute intervals come my way. So I don’t worry about people being late on me — up to ~30 minutes lateness I mentioned earlier.
neo: With one of my perennially late friends we arrived at a convention to meet at “Two-ish” — not two-o’clock on the dot and not earlier either.
It sounds like you have an agreement to meet your friends at two-ish. Past that I imagine you would feel you had broken your agreement.
I was raised such that you were considered to be late if you didn’t arrive early. Fortunately my wife is the same way. But we know that when invited to someone else’s home, for a dinner or a party, the designated time is a no earlier arrival time. We almost always end up driving around a bit so that we end up arriving just after on time.
Surely there are people that are engaged in passive aggressive behavior by being late, and others are trying to make an attention getting entrance, but nearly everyone I know that is late is just bad at estimating how long certain tasks will take.
I can’t imagine being angry with a friend that is late, even if all the time.
My motto is “I’d rather be thirty minutes early than five minutes late.” It works great for appointments…sometimes, like 75% of the time, I can get into my appts early.
My wife, on the other hand, figures it takes 10 minutes or whatever to get to her appts and she refuses to leave until that magic number. I take her to all her appts and I often have to speed and run yellow lights to get her there on time.
Night owl, invariably early.
The extended family had a cousin who with her hubby and kids were always at least half an hour late. We used to joke that she’d be late for her own funeral. She wasn’t, but her daughter was.
I try to be punctual. Not early so as not to intrude before agreed upon, and not late because It keeps the other person or disrupts the group.
My wife had her right temporal lobe removed years ago and I assume the temporal lobe keeps track of time.
Dwaz:
That reminds me of Elizabeth Taylor’s funeral:
huxley, your comments on the est stuff are interesting. I was once on the point of doing a Landmark course, but didn’t go through with it. Bit of a story behind that one, maybe interesting, maybe not. Creeped me out.
I’m in the realm of the five-minutes-early crowd, generally, when it comes to social stuff. Oddly, with church, of all things, has been my biggest punctuality issue over the last 15 years or so, which is a problem when you’re the lead chanter. I’ve gotten better about it in recent times, though.
[Landmark] … Creeped me out.
Philip: You’re not wrong.
I got good stuff from est/Landmark, but I learned I couldn’t accept it as a package deal. I had to think for myself. It was part of my growing up.
Landmark leaders always say at the beginning not to believe anything they say, but to try it on like a coat. However, most participants come out of the Forum pretty much believing what they were told.
For me the Landmark way of looking at things can be quite useful. It’s still part of my bag of tricks. My main problem was once you graduate, then Landmark pushes hard to turn you into a recruiter for Landmark.
For a while I tried taking the tack of declaring (jargon) my intention (jargon) not to bring guests (jargon). This was legitimate by Landmark rules but is basically not playing the game and things stopped being fun.
However, to anyone inclined to take the Landmark Forum, I say do it. Consider it “participatory theatre.” It’s quite a ride.
Rufus, I apologize. What I meant to do was commiserate with the fact that being late made you miserable. That’s where I should have stopped. Again, my apologies.
@huxley, @Philip – Back in the 80s I was invited by a friend who was quite serious about EST. Straight off I didn’t take kindly to sitting on the floor of a large conference room with hundreds of other people and told that I couldn’t leave to use the restroom. Alarms went off in my head that it was a cult. Never went back. I enjoy my liberty too much.
Alarms went off in my head that it was a cult. Never went back. I enjoy my liberty too much.
Brian Morgan: You’re not wrong either.
Back when I took the Landmark Forum, I was concerned about the cult question. I wound up arguing Landmark was a cult with Landmark grads in a Yahoo group and arguing Landmark was not a cult on Rick Ross’s anti-cult board.
I ended up making friends with the Landmark group.
I did a sufficiently good job defending Landmark in the face of constant abuse that the Rick Ross moderator, probably Ross himself, silently disabled my account, then said “See, [huxley], won’t address criticisms.”
I came away thinking Rick Ross ran a more dishonest cult than Landmark.
I do a couple radio shows.
Being late would be a bad thing.
Again Neo and others of the no big deal if I’m late crowd. Thinking it’s okay to be late is all about you. It’s all about the lack of situational awareness that your tardiness impacts others. Don’t get me wrong, this is not the hill I die on. It’s not that big a deal to be a few minutes late. But in our crowd, the majority look down their noses, and rightfully so, at those who are always tardy. You all think it’s cute. Trust me it isn’t.
Uncle Aldous was a big influence on me when I was young.
Huxley’s advice, in the spirit of the scientific method, was, when exploring mysticism, to take on the beliefs and practices of a spiritual tradition to see where they led. Then, afterward, to drop back to a meta-position and decide how the experiment worked.
I wasn’t entirely a lamb led to the slaughter when I wandered into various cultish situations. I found that as long as I held fast to the principle that I have the final say, I was OK.
@huxley – It is a blessing yet also a curse that Americans have not lived through and fought against an oppressive regime in our lifetimes. In the 90s I worked with an immigrant from the Soviet Union. He was a PhD in Computer Science, very bright fellow. After a few years of employment we began searching for new employment opportunities. He was top talent so Microsoft was interested. After his interview he lectured them that the culture there was like the Soviet Union’s. On another occasion he and I pulled into the company’s parking lot at the same time. I got out of the car and waited for him but he was very animated talking on his cellphone. Later he said he called into a New York City radio station. He was upset that members of his community called in saying they were depressed to find that America was heading in the direction of the Soviet Union. He called in to remind them to fight it at the ballot box. I’m relating these stories to remind people that we as Americans are easily led astray. Alarm bells should be going off but they are not for a lot of our fellow citizens.
It is blessing yet also a curse that Americans have not lived through and fought against an oppressive regime in our lifetimes.
Brian Morgan: We’re trying, we’re trying!
To give the devil some due, Rick Ross on his cult website defends Trump and his supporters as not being a cult:
Instead of characterizing devotion to Donald Trump as a “cult” without qualification, it’s preferable, more objective, accurate and concise to recognize the nuances and complexity of the cultural currents and rifts that are polarizing Americans.
Donald Trump may have a kind of fan base or “cult following” like many celebrities, but he does not match the criteria that defines cult leaders who have historically exercised virtually limitless unchecked dictatorial power over their followers.
Trump is also not empowered by a deliberate “brainwashing” process deceptively done through a premeditated intentionally planned thought reform program with the goal of “mind control.” It serves no useful purpose to reduce the word “cult” to a “buzz word,” rather than recognize its precise range of meaning and boundaries.
https://cultnews.com/2019/11/i-often-wonder-if-my-cousins-are-members-of-a-cult-they-worship-donald-trump/
Most of my life I’ve been anxiously early for everything. Some of this was because I had a college roommate who was 15 minutes late for everything, and since we did a lot of things together that usually meant I was late too, and I HATED it. (Yes, I spoke to her about it a few times. Didn’t help.) I finally set our clock ahead 20 minutes, and that took care of that.
Then for a while we lived on an island with a ferry, and being a few minutes late for the ferry meant missing the boat and being an hour late for work or, if coming home, more than an hour late picking up the baby from the sitter. So I really got compulsive about time — but for the first year after we moved off that island, I was five or ten minutes late everyplace I went, just because I could be and it was such a relief!
Now, quite a few decades later, life has slowed down, the kids are grown up and I’m often a few minutes late to things — but not things that matter, not catching a plane or going to an important doctor appointment. Just the kind of encounter Neo mentioned, meeting a friend who’s likely to be 5 minutes late too. And it is because I always think I can do just one more thing — and I never seem to learn that, actually, I can’t. “Everything takes longer than it takes.” Yep.
Brian Morgan,
I got dragged to an EST meeting once. They got my phone number before all my alarm bells started going off. In order to stop their phone calls, I was finally forced to become rude to the point of threatening them. They would not take “No.” for an answer.
It was a very unpleasant experience.
Mrs. Whatsit, I agree that there are some things for which we must be on time. Also, when meeting someone new in either a casual or professional setting, being on time is mandatory. Once you get a feel for the other person then you can make adjustments. If a person is reliably late, say 30 minutes, then I adjust my arrival time 20 minutes earlier. If meeting for a meal it gives me time to decompress, gather my thoughts, have a drink, and get in the mood. I would never consider disowning someone. Relationships are much too important for that.
I was usually punctual as a student, but not particularly worried about being a bit late. If I was late and the teacher wouldn’t let me come in, I was fine with that. I wanted to be on time, but sometimes didn’t make it. So punctuality wasn’t an important conscious habit at the time.
Then I went to Navy flight training. Everything was on a schedule. It was important to be on time. I did okay until I was selected to escort a beauty queen to a Naval Pageant at NAS Corpus Christi. I was so intent on getting my white uniform ready for that event that I was 20 minutes late to quarters. (Roll call) When I showed up, I was ordered to report to the Training Officer’s office. What occurred then was a thirty minute ass-chewing that I have never forgotten. Every reason why Naval aviators must be on time was pointed out. How lives, aircraft, and ships depended on being on time, on station, and on target. I was deeply embarrassed, but I also took his words to heart. For the next 37 years, as a Navy and airline pilot, I lived on schedules and was never late. That professional attention to not being late also became a part of my personal life and has continued to be so in retirement. I always leave early, I never let anything stand in the way of my being at a place at the appointed time. If I’m early, it doesn’t bother me. What’s important is to be on time. Yes, I was browbeaten into the habit some 64 years ago, but I’ve never regretted it.
My wife is punctual, but is not obsessed with it as I am. She’s occasionally late to her doctor appointments, but it usually doesn’t matter, as the doctors are seldom ready for you at the appointed time. She kids me for always leaving early, but we both accept one another’s habits as being part of who we are.
Roy Nathanson, that’s horrible. Thankfully my EST encounter was at a time when I was young and frequently changed residences. This was before cellphones so any phone number I gave them was only good for a limited time.
DonKeyoti,
Trust me, I find it easy to believe you and your crowd look down your noses at others for all sorts of things.
DonKeyoti:
You seem to have a reading comprehension problem.
For example, you write “Thinking it’s okay to be late is all about you. It’s all about the lack of situational awareness that your tardiness impacts others.”
I don’t see people here saying that it’s okay for them to be late; in fact, most people are unhappy about their own lateness and have tried to correct it, but many are having difficulty doing so.
And most people are in that 5-to-10-minute ballpark of lateness and – as you yourself write ‘ “it’s not that big a deal to be a few minutes late.” So what situational awareness do they lack, if the agreement is that a few minutes don’t matter?
In addition, however, you write: “But in our crowd, the majority look down their noses, and rightfully so, at those who are always tardy.” Well, speaking of situational awareness and “it’s all about you” – it is you who are imagining that because in your crowd this is the majority opinion, that it’s that way everywhere. It ain’t necessarily so.
You also seem to be assuming that people have not discussed the situation with their friends and don’t know what their friends think about it, and that their friends are not often likewise late (although some people have already indicated that their friends are indeed often late). So although you may have good “situational awareness” of your own situation, you have no idea what the situations of other people are in this respect regarding their own friends. Some of these things are cultural and even geographic. Do you really think everyone lives in exactly the same world you live in?
Then you add: “You all think it’s cute. Trust me it isn’t.” I have read or at least skimmed all the comments here. I have yet to see one person indicating his or her own lateness is “cute.” So why on earth should we trust you, when you have shown an inability to understand even the comments on this one thread?
Ray Nathanson, Brian Morgan: If you told est or Landmark unambiguously not to phone, they were supposed to not phone you.
However, there were a few catches. (1) You can’t beg off politely. You really have to say something blunt like, “No, because I say no.” (2) In the est days the phoners could be overly enthusiastic and call anyway. (3) Data entry mistakes could be made and lists might not be properly updated. I was called three times after I took the Forum because of such errors, but with persistence they apologized and stopped.
When I bought guests to est/Landmark events, I always told my guests to say no, if that’s what they wanted, and to be rude if necessary.
est/Landmark was often good to free up shy introverted types, but it could also turn people into pushy monsters. The technical term in the est days was “esthole.” Landmark got better at that, but you’re still taking a chance.
@huxley, It appears as though the Twitter-verse is full of “estholes”. It’s an interesting possibility.
Brian Morgan, Huxley,
This would have been in 1980. They phoned incessantly and showed up at my door several times. The only thing that finally made them stop was my threat that if I ever saw or heard from any of them ever again that I was going to the police to report the harrassment and get a restraining order. I was also holding a baseball bat at the time, so I’m not sure about which threat did the trick.
Roy, 1981 for me. Most interesting!
Wow, 80+ comments! Someone touched a nerve.
Reminds me of a time in the late 80’s or early 90’s when the most heavily attended town meeting in the my town occurred when a dog leash law was one of the warrant articles. This would have required all dogs out in public to be on a leash. It failed to pass.
I have been enjoying the funny stuff commentors have been saying about being late. Without details I had a wife for over twenty years who was late for almost everything, not five or ten minutes but thirty or more which really sucked going to church, weddings and funerals and her leaving our kids sitting outside of grade school on the curb talking to the principal who had to stay until the last kid was picked up. Those types of people make life difficult whereas the five or ten minute folks, who cares, in Texas that’s being on time.
I usher at our church during the 11:00 o’clock service and over the years the same people are early, up to thirty minutes, the same one’s are on time and about a third of the congregation make in in by 11:10 after the first announcements, first song and in time to do the shake hands and share greetings of peace. Come early, come late, who cares because showing up is what counts.
Reading all of the comments above, once more, is a lot of fun.
I was brought up with another German proverb:
Punctuality is the province of princes.
As a side-note: my father’s close friends would tell him that they were starting a dinner/party a half hour past the actual time, otherwise they knew that he would show up at the front door while they were still in the shower.
Who wants to be the last one to comment?
I’m very prompt or early ( likely a neurosis on my part), but I married Neis younger sister whose aleays late.
We often argue about when to get to the airport
Neo, watch the people react to anyone who enters the show after it’s begun. It’s not just “my crowd” who reacts, shall we say, with less enthusiasm to the latecomer. Observe the behavior of most service personnel who have to keep their shop open because a person is late picking up their dry cleaning, car, etc. You say you try and not be late. Isn’t that within one’s control? Isn’t it then a choice? Sorry, it is all about situational awareness but I love them all just the same. And they all get teased about it.
Of course, it’s not fair to make anyone miserable by being late, but punctuality has a dark side too, for example, prisons and fascism.
The thing is that there are two kinds of compulsive lateness. There ARE people who are passive-aggressive, or at least selfish, about it — the ones who are really late, enough to inconvenience people, over and over again, and who don’t seem to care that they are causing problems for others. My always-15-minutes-late college roommate was one of these, in a mild way, I’m afraid. She knew it was causing problems for me, but it didn’t change anything. (The rudeness of walking in significantly late to a seminar made my toes curl up in shame,) I think with her it was a small way of rebelling against being “good” all the time, which she otherwise mostly was. My point is, people who consistently let their rudeness inconvenience others are legitimate targets of the exasperation of many people in this thread.
But that’s not the kind of chronic lateness Neo was describing. Many people who are just a few minutes late to many encounters, as Neo has said, really don’t want to be late, and are aware that others might not like it, and try to do better, and apologize for it if it does cause inconvenience — and they aren’t late when it really matters. This is the kind of thing Neo was talking about. I have a friend who runs a busy office where somebody always needs her, and who, like so many of us, is always trying to do too much. She’s often pretty late when we meet for lunch. I know she will be late and I know she’s doing her best — so I just get there even later than I ordinarily would myself, and the problem is solved.
To make others wait for you is a choice; and it does matter to the others who must wait. I agree with DonKeyhoti’s comment that people who are often late frequently dismiss it as though it were just a quirk of their otherwise-lovable personalities. Or that tardiness is somehow endearing itself, as though it shows one is “creative” and not limited by mere schedules. Some of that might have come through into this thread, or no; but it is certainly an attitude one hears a lot, in general. I’ve probably voiced it myself, since I say this as someone who used to be late more often than early. But being early is a relief, whenever I make sure I achieve it, more frequently now as I have worked at it. Not having to go through that last-minute rushing around, realizing the clock is now inexorably against you, hurrying to the car or the train, cursing silently or aloud at the slow driver ahead of you — that stuff is not fun.
Kai Akker:
There have quite a few sweeping generalizations some people here have made. For example, your first sentence. Let me assure you that some people do not care if they wait 5 or ten minutes in a restaurant for a friend, and they convey that thought. Others do care, but it is a minor thing to them. Some care very very much. People are quite different in that regard, and what mix of people a person finds is cultural and regional in addition to just human variation.
What’s more, being habitually late is sometimes a choice and sometimes not. It depends on how many unexpected things press on a person’s time, or even (in some cases) chronic and yet temporally unpredictable health issues.
I have actually never met anyone who shrugs off being late as a quirk of an otherwise loveable personality. I am not saying such people do not exist, but the people I know who are chronically late are not the least bit pleased with themselves and are often more upset about it than the person waiting. And no one in this thread has conveyed the attitude you describe (“loveable quirk”), so it doesn’t seem to fit what we’re discussing here.
DonKeyhoti:
I obviously am not talking about anything like the phenomena or behavior you are describing. I don’t know why you persist in giving extreme examples that obviously inconvenience other people to a much greater degree.
I am not late enough to the theater to inconvenience a single person, but I just hate being a half hour early, as I said in my post. But if someone is late and inconveniences me in a theater for the short moment it takes me to stand and let that person pass, I can assure you that any annoyance I feel is vanishingly mild. I try not to sweat the small stuff overly, and that sort of problem, when I am the recipient of it, is very small stuff indeed to me. If I think about that person at all, I assume he or she might have been caught in a large and unexpected traffic jam, rather than that it is some sort of selfish choice. After all, how on earth would I know whether it is habitual on their part or not?
I am pretty sure there is human variation on how much other people care about it, as well. Some care a lot and some, like me, hardly care at all about being inconvenienced in such a minor way. And people vary greatly in their personal tolerance for human variation and foibles in general, as well. Some people are very rigid in their expectations around punctuality (or anything else) and some are not.
As this thread has proven.
Neo:
It’s past noon on Monday. I’ve been waiting and waiting for you to post something!
Ha ha ha.
(I couldn’t resist.)
Let me assure you that some people do not care if they wait 5 or ten minutes in a restaurant for a friend, and they convey that thought.
I wrote a generalization, Neo? Of course I wrote a generalization! We’re discussing an element of human behavior. No generalization can cover every specific case, and maybe there is some sizable but non-majority percentage that behaves like your friends. (All you friends?)
I am just trying to discuss the topic. I don’t get your defensiveness. Maybe it means there is more to this topic for you than you want to think. I wouldn’t write that some people do XYZ unless I have encountered some people who do XYZ. Believe it or not!
I agree with DonKeyhoti’s comment that [INSERT “SOME”] people who are often late frequently dismiss it as though it were just a quirk of their otherwise-lovable personalities.
I am correcting my generalization, Neo! I think DonK used the word “cute.” I’m pretty sure we’re describing the same phenomenon. It is a true statement; I have heard it said, and I suspect I have said it myself once or twice! Ha ha ha, I am always late…. etc.
Kai Akker:
Who indeed is being defensive?
This would have been in 1980. They phoned incessantly and showed up at my door several times. The only thing that finally made them stop was my threat that if I ever saw or heard from any of them ever again that I was going to the police to report the harrassment and get a restraining order.
Roy Nathanson: Good for you! That’s as bad a case as I’ve heard with est.
1980 was about the height of est’s exponential growth. I was active from 1977-1982. It was a crazy, almost messianic time. There was a sense that est was going to sweep through and transform the world in a matter of years. It was similar to the sky-high hopes for LSD in the sixties.
However, the excesses of est plus the lawsuits plus the shady dealings at the top of the est organization (i.e. Werner) were catching up with the organization. Werner rebooted the est Training as the Landmark Forum get past the Training’s legal liabilities IMO, then gradually phased the est organization out into Landmark Education. Then there was the notorious “60 Minutes” segment on Werner which forced him out of the public eye for years.
One can still see much of est and the Training in Landmark but it’s blander, more tepid. I was rather shocked when I took the Landmark “Integrity” seminar — about keeping one’s word and all that entails — and noticed by the end of the seminar 40% of the participants weren’t just late, they had dropped out!
That never happened in the old est seminars, where graduates brought a samurai-like intensity to keeping their agreements.
Kai Akker:
You write “maybe there is some sizable but non-majority percentage that behaves like your friends. ” Yes, maybe. But have you considered that “maybe there is some sizable but non-majority percentage that behaves like your friends”? Or maybe not even so “sizeable”? I certainly don’t know, and I don’t pretend to know.
But I have actually been surprised at the number of sweeping generalizations made in this thread about what people think about others who are late. I have tried to be careful to speak only of myself and the people with whom I’m acquainted.
Kai Akker:
Let me add that my dislike of such generalizations about people isn’t limited in the least to the topic of lateness. It extends to many things. I’ve noticed the same over-generalization tends to happen about weight and diets. Those threads often get a lot of responses.
Perhaps I’m sometimes guilty of similar generalizations, but I try very hard not to be.
I know I’m late for this, as so often has been the case before, but in many ways I’ve agreed to be better.
Thanks, Neo, for clearly noting a key issue –
part of my problem is that I don’t really like being early.
I don’t like it. I don’t like being early.
I remember being at the US Naval Academy, with multiple formations daily that were punishable if you were late, and I would usually be among the last of those on time, often in the last 10 seconds. Sometimes late, with some demerits.
Also, I’m usually among the last to leave if I’m enjoying myself at a party or other meeting. Still often have this habit, but I’m far more on-time, with 4 kids, and with some airplane flights missed, but also a willingness not to do the extra thing I think I have time for.
Now it’s more OK not to be super efficient at getting little things done, so we go to church on time; get the wife to her work mostly on time; have flexible work time so am not late to work, and even less late with more casual consulting.
Nice thread, but over 100 comments, so decided not to read them all. One reason I like Neo’s blog is the good comments, but not too many. So far. Maybe moving towards the Althouse / Marginal Revolution often over 50, so more often skipping some. I did like Hooray for Captain Spalding intro.
I used to think I wasn’t trying to be rude when late. Now I’m pretty sure habitual lateness is a bit of rudeness; but also is frequently paired with generosity and courtesy. Part of an internal compensation. Both ways – late because of prior niceness, and extra nice because of prior lateness. Like Mrs Whatsit’s roomate:
a small way of rebelling against being “good” all the time,
Advice to Neo – in preparation for going, when you think you can do “one more thing”, choose to NOT do it, and leave instead. Then, when “on time”, or perhaps even early (! ??), give yourself a treat and be glad. I think practicing being happy about being a bit early is needed, but not natural, for those of us more inclined to be late “all the time”. And of course, when you get home and do that “one more thing”, remind yourself it did NOT need to be done before the other deadline.
Perhaps not mentioned above, there is an adrenaline rush when you are late, and you often start to move very efficiently. I’d guess lots of people get, and like, these little rushes. I liked them – my wife hates them. It’s not “hard” to give them up, but it’s constant work.
Tom Grey:
Your advice “in preparation for going, when you think you can do ‘one more thing’, choose to NOT do it, and leave instead” would be great except for one thing: I already do that. I believe I’m doing it, anyway, and I often believe I’ve succeeded, although I obviously haven’t. How do you determine where “one more thing” begins, when you’re busy and have many unfinished tasks to accomplish? Drawing the correct line is very difficult for me, apparently.
And I sometimes am early. It’s happened. I actually don’t mind it at all as long as it’s limited to a few minutes, under 10. If it’s more I really really start to hate it, and at a half hour I very much hate it. So calibrating seems very difficult for me. I keep trying and failing. Sometimes it matters more than other times, of course. Obviously, since I’ve never missed a plane in my life, I’ve spent many many hours sitting in airports waiting. And I make extra-special efforts for the one friend of mine with very little tolerance for any degree of lateness. I often succeed with her, but not always. We seem to have reached a decent accommodation.
Perhaps not mentioned above, there is an adrenaline rush when you are late, and you often start to move very efficiently.
Tom Grey: I’m pretty good about not being late when other people are involved. But I can procrastinate terribly when the only person being inconvenienced is myself.
I once read procrastination does provide the benefit, when one finally swings into action, of cutting through non-essentials and focusing laser-like on the task at hand.
Who the heck likes to arrive early? I think it’s safe to say few people do. But I wouldn’t use that as a reason or have that be my go to rationale for arriving habitually (occasionally? generally?) late. Going to dinner at a friend’s home permits the use of the term fashionably late. To most that means about ten to fifteen minutes unless we are on tap to bring the hors d’oeuvres or some such other assignment that’s needed to start the evening. It’s when the same couple or couples are routinely close to an hour or more that they open themselves to some gentle ribbing. We all know who they are.
DonKeyhoti:
No one is excusing extreme lateness of more than a few minutes.
And people are saying they don’t like long waits, not that their dislike of waits is the reason they are often slightly late. They are saying their slight but consistent lateness is mostly a time management and organizational problem on their part.
huxley on January 20, 2020 at 6:00 pm said:
…
I once read procrastination does provide the benefit, when one finally swings into action, of cutting through non-essentials and focusing laser-like on the task at hand.
* * *
If it weren’t for the last minute, I wouldn’t get anything done.
Reading “one more blog” post, or worse, commenting on it, always provides a “one more thing” to do while “not late yet”.
For me now, there are two lines. a) waiting to be called to go somewhere; I do blog reading or other stuff that I can stop whenever. I get called, I stop, I go — sometimes my unsent comment (even here!) is still in my browser the next day.
b) at some agreed to time to be there, I set a reasonable time to leave, and a 5 min buffer to leave sooner. When the buffer comes, I really start to leave OR finish the last quick read / last take out garbage / last little chore, and try to go.
That “about to be late” is enough to focus on the final tasks … to leave. Too late for the many other desires. It’s working this year — we were among the first at the formal ball we went to (for ballroom dancing), tho we also had an entry of egg salad in the salad competition which we wanted to set up early. It wasn’t bad being early, since there were folks to talk to.
YouTube knows what I’m writing about – here’s a funny “late to everything”.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLUFit8815c
Late to a Netflix movie, at home, which you’re not supposed to be able to do …
Awkward funny, at least the first 5 min (of 38?).
I read here a lot – and I love it! (Thank you).
And I never comment (or rarely) – because I am by nature a lurker.
But I feel highly disrespected by friends or co-workers that are always late to meet. I get traffic (I have it too!). I get discomfort while waiting (who wouldn’t?) – but I can’t help but feel that my counter-party values their use of their own time over their use of my time.
It might be small minded of me, but after being either dealing with someone who is always 10 minutes late, or a couple of no-shows (and they have great excuses!), I start to feel like a chump. In that relationship anyway. And I invest less in it over time. Including, not agreeing to casual meetings any more.
I don’t know if they are cutting me off from rude-ness or I am cutting them off from intolerance. I’ll consider that more now. So – thank you.
(But, please, don’t be late: it makes your friends feel disrespected and not valued)
William:
Welcome to commenting.
I have a question for you: if ten minutes is too much, what about five? In other words, is there a place where you draw the line, or is absolute punctuality a requirement for you? Each person has to decide for him/herself what to tolerate in friendships and what is intolerable, and if you feel put out and disrespected by even minor lateness, and choose to withdraw totally or somewhat from the friendship, that’s of course your decision to make.
But in my experience, I forgive friends many many foibles, because people are imperfect and if I cut off friendships for what I consider small violations and hurts, I would have no friends at all. Or maybe one. I choose to have more friends than that – but maybe I’m the chump.
Your friends may be more perfect than mine. Or you may be less easily hurt and/or offended or annoyed, and this lateness thing may be a special pet peeve of yours that bothers you more than other things your friends do. If so, then so be it. But I would ask you whether the people you describe as habitually late are late for just meeting you, or whether it’s a more global problem for them that they acknowledge as a time management problem and something they regret. If it’s the former – late for just meeting you – I would say you actually are being disrespected and the person doesn’t value your time. But if the person has a bigger problem that isn’t just when meeting you, and if the person is otherwise a person you like (and a considerate one in most respects), I wonder whether you would be able to see it differently and not feel like a chump.
Just a thought.