And by the way…
…I know this is picayune stuff, but I’m tired of seeing Jeffrey Epstein described nearly everywhere as a pedophile.
Actually, it is very clear that he was a hebephile who was primarily attracted to girls in late adolescence but under the age of consent, or those in their late teens over the age of consent. Not all the girls he had some sort of sexual congress with were underage.
Stating that fact is not an attempt to whitewash his crimes. They were crimes. But the word “pedophile” has a specific meaning that relates to sexual attraction and/or relations with prepubescent children. I have seen no evidence that Epstein had that particular attraction.
At this point I suppose it doesn’t really matter. But “pedophile” is one of those loaded trigger words, and it’s used (inappropriately, in this case) for a reason: to get people as angry as possible.
Why isn’t the truth enough? (That’s a rhetorical question.)
Hebephilia is defined as a chronophilia in which an adult has a strong and persistent sexual interest in pubescent-aged individuals, generally aged 11–14, although the age of onset and completion of puberty vary. The DSM-5’s diagnostic criteria for pedophilia and the general medical literature define pedophilia as a disorder of primary or exclusive sexual interest in prepubescent children, thus excluding hebephilia from its definition of pedophilia. However, the DSM-5’s age criteria extends to age 13. Although the ICD-10 diagnostic code for the definition of pedophilia includes a sexual preference for children of prepubertal or early pubertal age, the ICD-11 states that “pedophilic disorder is characterized by a sustained, focused, and intense pattern of sexual arousal—as manifested by persistent sexual thoughts, fantasies, urges, or behaviours—involving pre-pubertal children.” Because of some inconsistencies in definitions and differences in the physical development of children and adolescents, there is overlap between pedophilia, hebephilia and ephebophilia.
The term hebephilia was first used in 1955, in forensic work by Hammer and Glueck. Anthropologist and ethno-psychiatrist Paul K. Benedict used the term to distinguish pedophiles from sex offenders whose victims were adolescents.
One of the peculiarities of these sexual proclivities is that those who exhibit them often specialize rather narrowly. Epstein seemed to be into girls in later adolescence, for example ages 15 or so. He probably used this to justify what he did as not being such a big deal, as do some other people who consider such things okay.
I consider such things extremely not-okay. Even though the age of consent differs somewhat from state to state, Epstein was an exploiter of underage girls and that is both a legal and a moral crime.
But it’s not pedophilia.
According to a recent piece in the NYT, Epstein likened today’s revulsion against old men preying upon underage girls to the hostility in former times to homoeroticism, suggesting that just as expressions of the latter have now been de-criminalized in most of the developed world, so should relations between grown men and girls under today’s legal age of consent. He clearly felt no remorse for what he had done.
Yes, I pointed this out on a previous post, although my post was not on point.
Age of consent laws are vary greatly.
Currently only two states will not allow a minor (under 18) to marry: NJ and DE. Which I understand, oddly enough, conform to The United States policy regarding child marriage overseas.
One might actually argue for the term “heberast” (in parallel to pederast vs. pedophile) on the grounds that his interests had nothing to do with philia of any sort and everything to do with erastes, or shtupping in the colloquial speech.
“… but I’m tired of seeing Jeffrey Epstein described nearly everywhere as a pedophile.”
Yep. As I understand it, a pedophile doesn’t really care about the sex of the child, but rather the tender age.
Ilion:
Some don’t care, but many do.
That term applies to the great majority of that subset of homosexual Roman Catholic priests who were molesting “youths”.
I’m tired of the existence of sex perverts and the mentally ill and the effen weak and subversive. Why don’t they just go away …
“the word “pedophile” has a specific meaning that relates to sexual attraction and/or relations with prepubescent children. neo
And the crowd rolls their eyes in reaction, having embraced; “When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.’
’The question is,’ said Alice, ‘whether you can make words mean so many different things.’
’The question is,’ said Humpty Dumpty, ‘which is to be master — that’s all.” Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking Glass
“A dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant than is a riot.” Robert A. Heinlein
Fairness requires that we acknowledge Judge Moore was also a hebephile, not a pedophile. And, per sdferr’s note about Epstein, it is also clear from what evidence we have that Judge Moore was NOT a heberast.
The number of his accusers is a huge order of magnitude fewer than Epstein’s (only 9 are noted at Wikipedia, ages 14 and up), and denied the 3 never-proven accusations of assault, none of which approached even the mildest of the charges against Epstein.
But Epstein was the darling of the Beltway Elite, even after his proclivities were known, and Moore was shunned as a deplorable reprobate.
I’m not defending Moore (although I thought at the time that the attacks on him were just a wee bit politically convenient, coming 40 years after the events and having had not surfaced before then), just pointing out (once more) the tediously blatant double standards of the Left and/or Elites.
Charles Gasparino of Fox Biz (FBN) had a couple long phone calls with Epstein in March or April of this year. The questions were mostly about financial issues, but Charlie did ask for a statement on the sex charges. Purportedly, Epstein was adamant “I’m not a pedophile.”
Well yes, he’s not a pedophile but a hebephile, or an ephebophile. Best I can tell, the person of attraction to an ephebophile, is past puberty, but still underage.
One of the weird things that Gasparino was looking at were a couple news reports that claimed that Epstein maybe got a lenient sentence the first time around because he gave state’s evidence in the trial against two alleged Bear Stearns hedge fund fraudsters named Cioffi and Tannin. They were acquitted.
While it seems that Epstein was invested in the hedge fund, Gasparino, and another journalist I think, found zero evidence that Epstein had any contact with federal prosecutors. So where did the other news reports come from? Gasparino is still doing background research, and maybe more will come out.
Epstein had some interesting friends.
Maybe this explains a few things.
Always look to British newspapers for US political news.
I concur with your desire to be exact with these terms Neo. As a Catholic, I make the effort to properly describe the sexual scandals in the terms that it truly exists. From Wikipedia:
The term (ephebophilia) has been described by Frenchman Félix Buffière in 1980,[9] and Pakistani scholar Tariq Rahman,[10] who argued that ephebophilia should be especially used with regard to homosexuality when describing the aesthetic and erotic interest of adult men in adolescent boys in classical Persian, Turkish, or Urdu literature.
Over 70% of cases in the Church have been ephebophilia, a very unpopular truth in our present age.
Ephebophilia and hebephilia were very common in Ancient Greece and Rome (particularly Greece.) It was common for grown men to take adolescent male lovers. This seems common though the ancient world and even into modern times. One of Oscar Wilde’s lovers was fifteen. Arguably it was these relationships the Bible was forbidding in passages against homosexuality and not the more modern equal age relationships. Of course, that’s debatable.
Makes me glad I grew up in modern times.
One my aunts at age 14 married a man who was 22. It was legal in Kentucky at the time. Parental consent was required. And no, they were not cousins. I agree there are good reasons for making the age of consent 18.
Epstein would have felt at home in Arabia.
Pedophile just sounds worse.
“Fairness requires that we acknowledge Judge Moore was also a hebephile, not a pedophile. And, per sdferr’s note about Epstein, it is also clear from what evidence we have that Judge Moore was NOT a heberast.”
the credibility of his accusers, especially the yearbook forger was pretty low, but since he’s a kook I guess it worked
Pedophilia = Child love.
There is a similar controversy with the classification of physical and mental gender anomalies in the transgender spectrum.
Judge Moore was NOT a heberast
Perhaps tail end of ephebophilist (15-19).
he’s a kook I guess it worked
Yeah, marked by a liberal judgment and label that has persisted as a political myth.
“Fairness requires that we acknowledge Judge Moore was also a hebephile, not a pedophile.”
Didn’t Moore marry one of the young women in whom he was interested … and *stay* married to her, even decades after she was no longer 16?
The Rolling Stones song Stray Cat Blues: “Well I can see that you’re just 15 years old / No I don’t want no ID” moving on to “Bet your mama never saw you spread like that / Bet she never saw you scratch my back.” These lyrics delighted me when I was 12, 13 years old. This kind of thing was why the Stones were the bad boys and the Beatles were not.
Led Zeppelin’s Jimmy Page famously was “in love” (or whatever) with a beautiful 15 year old groupie in LA. All the rock bands had young groupies who threw themselves at musicians not only in the 60s and 70s but forever.
So this is the culture. Brooke Shields in the movie Pretty Baby as a 13 year old prostitute in New Orleans. Jodie Foster in Taxi Driver.
Powerful rich males aren’t interested in having a meaningful conversation with a sex object. (Or: some of them aren’t.)
Jerry Lee Lewis married a 13 year old, whose name I believe was Myra.
We don’t even want to know what’s gone on with gangsta rappers through the years.
Jeffrey Epstein was far from unique.
Hebephile-Pedophile, a distinction without a difference! He had sex with underaged girls. Mostly below the age of consent, that’s rape. Using “correct” terminology does not lessen it.
Romey:
I made it quite explicit that using the correct terms does not lessen the offense. It merely describes it more accurately.
And you are not describing what he did accurately, either. Epstein did not merely “have sex with underage girls.” He paid them, and he pimped them to others as well.
I asked the pimp I came to know if he ever fell in love with any of the girls. His reply surprised me. He said his biggest thrill was “turning them out,” which, if you don’t know the slang, means turning a girl into a whore.
Yeah, I judged him then.
his hebeophilia comes from our modern age in which we have sex early (and like a duck, finds its imprinting)… and we have adult relationships late..
hey… maybe feminists there was a reason for the oppressive nature of things
ie. to insure the lady wasnt put upon and could learn, grow, and mature…
but hey… if a guy has sex when he is 14 and 15…
he becomes a hebephile if he doesnt learn to like older as he gets older..
but note… not long ago, the age in which hebephile is illegal wasnt illegal in the past or now in some countries…. and the illegality of homosexuality is no more, though its illegal in some spaces…
now… if the two ‘kids’ were oppressed from having sex and imprinting
maybe we would have fewer of this, and fewer precocious women too
[who like in Nabokov book, learn they have a mysterious power no one will speak of before they will speak of it… and then deny it exists… ]
perhaps those old things when understood werent oppressions any more than cross at the green and not in between is… but hey, you have to have the long view and the desire to know, and when your remodeling society and people, you just demolish and throw it out.
well, before that came “Itty Bitty Pretty One”
done by Thurston Harris, Jackson 5, Franky lymon, and tons and tons of others…
Thurston Harris – Little Bitty Pretty One
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8j4mn4eF-c
and if i remember correct, heddy ledbetters song “good night irene”
And i have noticed that lyrics on google are not original lyrics on both these songs!!! if you read the lyrics that come up crediting ledbelly… your missing the lines “I asked your mother for you”… the Weavers version has that cut out much like “coochi snorcher that could” is cut out of the monologues…
or did we forget the hebephilia in the feminist play before scrubbing and lots of explaining?
in the lyrics there is a stanza which illustrates the pre feminist time of led belly and how we watched over and protected with evil beneficial patriarchy..
I asked your mother for you
She tole me that you was too young
I wish to the good Lord that I’d never seen your face
I’m sorry that you ere were born
With oppressive momma, what would have happened?
by the way… how many of Epstein’s girls had oppressive parents that said no?
oh… and if Neo knows her classics.. (i like to think so)..
what painting is hanging in the lower levels of the Museum of Art in Manhattan?
they dont have it on the wall, but its in the compact study sections..
i cant remember the name, but it waxes and wanes in controversy [or had]
Pedophile….Hebephile?
It wasn’t RAPE rape…
Yeah, OK…..
“I didn’t call her ni@@ER….I called her niggaah…!
Do I need to go on with “…by reason of temporary insanity…” , or other “made up”
terms from the humanities finding clientele for “It doesn’t count for folks like ME, It’s NOT MY FAULT!”
Because the APA “desk reference” #5 is FULL of them.
If there’s any doubt…plenty “How to use the #5” publications ought to address the delusion.
Since they were so young and were FLOWN TO AN ISLAND, that took a few days at least.
Where were they found to take?
Where were their parents?
Were they girls from the streets of our cities, cleaned up?
Why don’t we hear about their parents? Didn’t they wonder where their daughters had gone?
The media have drummed the word “Pedophile” into people’s heads as part of their efforts to delegitimize traditional religious and academic institutions.
It is only “fair” (by media circus/culture war standards) that this word be used now, rather than a more obscure term.