“Game of Thrones” do-over
I watched the first two episodes of “Game of Thrones” many years ago at the urging of someone near and dear to me. But I begged off after that. For me, the whole thing was way way WAY too violent, and the violence seemed to be pointless violence for violence’s sake. I have a draft of a long post I once wrote about it and never published; maybe some day I’ll air it.
But I do know that the series finally ended, and that a lot of fans are very disappointed in the slipshod way it was wrapped up:
To say that the final season of Game of Thrones has been, uh, divisive is putting it mildly, and the likelihood that its finale on Sunday will manage to appease its fans has seemingly decreased with each additional episode. Now, a Change.org petition to remake the series’ eighth season “with competent writers” has surpassed a million signatures and was closing in on 1.1 million as of Sunday afternoon.
“David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have proven themselves to be woefully incompetent writers when they have no source material (i.e. the books) to fall back on,” the petition reads. “This series deserves a final season that makes sense.”
How about you? Did you watch the series? What did you think?
One of the things about getting older is I feel no need to jump on the latest hot thing. Have never watched an episode of GOT or The Walking Dead which makes feel totally out of touch as someone who used to be really into these kinds of shows (I loved ‘Lost’ and would read tons about it every week).
And now that I have exited the coveted 18-49 demo I sure I’m not missed!
I read the books, way back when. Things fall apart after book 3. The author created this interesting universe and then didn’t know what to do with it. He wanted to be special and unique and different from other SciFi/Fantasy authors and had the talent to set it up but not enough imagination to close the deal. I figured the same thing would happen on TV and it sounds like it kind of did. Lots of people were very emotionally (and financially – Hello, HBO) invested in their fantasy universe and disappointed to find it was all a big corporate hack job.
PARALLELS to reality anyone? Bueller??
Very, very rushed. It was like “oh, three episodes to go we’d better wrap things up.” I’m not upset about the choices various characters made, just that everything was so abrupt.
I read the books and I watched the show. I didn’t think the books were terribly well written. There was a lot of extraneous detail (he would often ramble on and on about all the different types of food on a table).
I also agree that the show’s writing suffered when the writers didn’t have material from the books to fall back on. A lot of this had to do with the limited number of episodes in the later seasons, where there wasn’t as much time to go into character development and story in between Battle X and Battle Y (which were set in stone).
However, I thought the show, when based on material in the books, was really well written and better than what was in the books.
And I actually thought they did a decent job in explaining what happened in the controversial penultimate episode from this season. The problem is the usual suspects who were complaining and signing petitions and thought a certain character’s choices were unrealistic are the ones who think and act the same way in their actual lives. These are the moral preeners who truly believe they are “good people” because they had an Obama bumper sticker, hold the door for black and Muslim coworkers at work, who have a copy Ta Nahesi Coates’ latest book on their coffee table, and constantly whine about all the “racists” around them on social media. They believe in their “inherent goodness” so much that they feel that they (and by proxy their political leaders/deities) are entitled to be arbiters of every else. Since they are the paragon of “good”, anyone who isn’t in 100% lockstep with them is thus “evil” and moral constraints no longer apply when deciding to silence or eliminate them.
The show’s writers said years ago that they had gotten the basic outline of how the series was to end from the writer of the novels (who actually did pen a few of the episodes along the way). So I can’t imagine that the basic events that transpired (which so many are upset/disappointed with) are much different from what the author intended.
The winner here is the author who now knows a lot of people didn’t like his intended ending. Now he can rewrite things (using social media criticism as a guide) and his last two books will generate a lot more interest than if the show’s ending was universally well-received. Every fan will read those novels hoping for the ending that they wanted (or at least something different). Of course, he has to live long enough to complete these novels, which has always been the problem.
Don’t care. Tried to stream/binge watch this but bailed after 2-3 episodes. Too repulsive.
OTOH. it tells you, as Scott Adams remarks, that we live in a golden age when the biggest news of the nation is a made-up story on television. We just no longer have big serious problems in our day to day lives.
I love the last episodes, they stay true to history depicting how the moment most social justice warrior revolutionaries got into power by bilking support from the ignorant people with their grandiose equality rhetoric they immediately become mass murdering tyrants. Liberal hipsters want another do over whenever those snowflakes don’t get the ending they wanted just like 2016.
If you are a Obama hater who want to watch a barack obama doppelganger committing war crime slaughtering soldiers who have already surrendered and laid down their arms and innocent civilians and allowing his soldiers to rape women and murder children go watch season 8 episode 5. At the very least go watch some reaction videos it is fun watching liberal hipsters shellshocked after learning the socialist social justice champion they had been supporting forever turned out to be a genocidal maniac
this is my personal favorite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69dKmpMYJeE&t=2s
It’s too stupid for you neoN.
If you want divinely inspired fiction, go read Brandon Sanderson instead. Same genre.
Dave, I watched some of that clip. It’s like watching cattle reactions as they go up to get slaughtered. You humans are…
We watched part of one episode, too strange and goofy for us.
“David Benioff and D.B. Weiss have proven themselves to be woefully incompetent writers when they have no source material (i.e. the books) to fall back on,” the petition reads. “This series deserves a final season that makes sense.”
The entirety of Hollywood is basically just that. Writers as hacks = screen guilds.
Just look up the Matrix copyright interviews ; )
I was happy with the general wrap-up, but it did seem extremely rushed.
I liked the series as far as it followed the books. I loved the books. I’m not a fan of any specific genre but I just like GOOD books and this was a fantastic series. I loved the dense, original universe and the many many interesting characters and cultures. And lore. And its fictional history!
When the show left the books behind, I felt it became more formulaic, more ordinary. There seemed to be epic effects-laden battles on a regular basis.These battles no longer seemed like logical results of strategic planning by crafty characters. It’s as if the writers thought viewers needed to see a big set piece every couple of episodes, and they’d have characters make out-of-character decisions in order to make it happen.
BTW Book, I too saw the first episode and I too was revolted. Three seasons later I tried it again (endless nudging from kids and husband–they said it was more like I, Claudius than Lord of the Rings). I ended up watching 3 seasons over one weekend. On an iPhone!! Then I devoured the books. My story isn’t unique.
https://humanevents.com/2019/05/21/woke-mafia-in-panic-as-game-of-thrones-slays-queen-social-justice-warrior/
I was happy up through the Battle of Winterfell, after that…..eh. Everything after made sense for the characters,but suddenly lacked the GoT spark. GoT appeal was the unexpected plot twists, and the realistic idea than the good guys don’t always win. E5 we always knew Dany would go crazy, but it was sort of like, “ok here she goes”. And the finale was so pablum compared to the previous great 7 seasons.
My youngest son was a fan of the books, so I agreed to check them out. I found books 1 and 2 somewhat interesting, but with too many tedious descriptions of trivial details. I got about a quarter the way through book 3 and had to stop because the storyline was moving too slowly for my tastes. I did not watch the series.
I have not read the books, and won’t until Martin actually finishes them, which I suspect he won’t. However, I have read detailed synopses of all five of the books in the main series, so I am not completely ignorant of how the story proceeds within the novels. As for the television series, I binged the first 3 seasons just prior to the start of season 4, and then watched the series a week at a time after that. I fell in love with the series instantly, and I think the series maintained a high level of writing and production right through season 5, which is, not surprisingly, where Martin left things after the last novel was published in the late Spring of 2011 (just after the series debuted on HBO).
I think most screenwriters are complete hacks, but a complete hack can produce a really fine screenplay from good source material. I think the writers of the TV series are, at best, competent hacks at writing, but for five seasons they were doing screenplay adaptations. Given the obviously rich material Martin provided, they did an outstanding job of condensing and weeding Martin’s verbiage into a compelling story- but that story was still Martin’s creation.
Once they had only a broad outline, starting in season 6, the writers were forced to fill in the plot between the various big events/outcomes. It was no longer a case of doing an adaptation where you take the books dialogue and story and fit it to screenplay. The writers were put on the spot to do a lot more of the creative work, and their lack of talent was blindingly obvious to me. What I think happened is that Martin had enough material to share that season 6 was not a disaster, but after that, he had less to share with the shows producers and writers, and seasons 7 and 8 were just pretty awful in both dialogue and building the foundations for the decisions and actions of the various characters.
I watched every episode two or three times. I’m a huge fan, but never read the books. The people who read the books tend to be insufferable, because they think they know everything. We’ve all learned throughout our lives that TV and movies are different mediums, and because of that you can never be wholly true to book versions. I loved the entire series from beginning to end. It was an interesting story that at least to some degree speaks about the real life mechanics of power, and then the corruption brought on by said power. My only thing about season 8 is that it felt pretty rushed, and they had to quickly have one of the main characters go from being beloved heroine to murderous tyrant in the span of two episodes. That’s something that probably needs to evolve over an entire season. I think a small portion of the actual viewing audience are mad because they didn’t get the ending that they felt they were entitled to. (The outcome they predicted and expected.) For those that didn’t get into it, I understand, it was pretty gritty and violent. For me it was great entertainment, and provided many hours of “water cooler” discussions.
Just for the record, I had no complaint about the big events themselves and how they turned out, just a lot of complaints about there being no basis for getting there in a believable manner. I was left scratching my head about the decisions the characters make- almost all are bad decisions, done over and over and over- decision made where it is obvious it is a bad decision. When the writers were working with the novels, it appears that Martin, at least, understood that the story has to support the making of a mistake.
Just to give an example of a bad decision that was understandable- in the early seasons, King of the North, Robb Stark, makes a promise to wed the daughter of a lord whose support is critical in his attempt to win the war against the Crown. However, Stark falls in love with a foreigner during his campaign, and weds her instead. However, this becomes a problem when the lord objects and threatens to withdraw his support. To make peace, Stark offers an apology and to have his maternal uncle, who is also the lord of an adjacent land, to marry the daughter. The aggrieved lord agrees to this arrangement, and a big wedding feast is held, but it turns out that the aggrieved lord really wasn’t mollified, and had reached an agreement with the crown to murder the Stark and all of his men while they were celebrating. This was a terrible mistake that cost Stark, his mother, his wife, his child, and a good portion of his allies and men their lives, and it was fully supported by the previous actions. Seasons 7 and 8 have similarly disastrous mistakes, but they aren’t understandable, nor is any indication give as to why they were made in the first place. This was just awful writing.
Never saw an episode, never read the book. I’m baffled that otherwise intelligent human beings devote any thought at all to fictional universes once they put the book down or shut off the video screen. There’s nothing wrong with a little escapism but think of what could have been done with the mental energy devoted to GoT (or the Marvel “Cinematic Universe”) if it had been applied to something that actually mattered.
besides the battle of winterfell I don’t feel that the show was rushed at all, if that certain character’s descend was given more time to develop the shocking value would have been lost. The reason why Ned’s beheading was shocking is because audience was caught by surprise that Joffery was way more ruthless, independent and more in control of his political affairs then we previously thought as he was deceptively illustrated by the show runners as a puppet of his mother and grandfather. There would be no shocking value left if that certain character was given another 10 episode to cross over to the dark side instead of in a split second.
What they could have done better is giving that character a better reason to turn, What if Cersei escaped by masquerading as a commoner and disappeared into a crowd of civilians and couldn’t be located? to prevent Cersei from escaping and using the good guys’ mercy as weakness now that certain character has every reason to start burning civilians along with Cersei within.
Snooze.
I haven’t read the books or watched the series.
I’m too busy watching REAL political theater and the challenges against our way of life by truly believable, truly despicable characters.
Speaking of shows with horses, after watching the most recent Preakness I can’t help but wonder what the race would have looked like without any jockeys whatsoever.
Never watched the show. I did read the first book, “Song of Ice and Fire”, and decided _then_ that it was gratuitously violent, so I didn’t read the rest. Now, with GTTM’s Hugo antics a few years ago, there’s no chance that I’ll ever read anything else he ever wrote. Or contribute my attention to any of his endeavors in the future.
I read the first three books and they were decent. I used to read so much that I would leave the library with 10-15 books every time I visited the place. I’d basically read anything in my preferred genres; Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Action/Adventure, Mystery. The last two books in the series(and I am convinced they will be the last) were abysmal wastes of paper and time.
The show, in the beginning was as good as, if not better than the books. But when the screenwriters left the source material behind, they didn’t have the chops to complete it and do it justice. It was very weak. The plot beats in the show were like bullet points on an outline, with about as much good writing and characterization as that implies. And two characters who were previously the two smartest men in the world became absolute idiots for no good reason except that the plot required it. It was bad enough that the screenwriters had to continuously explain the character actions in the interviews after every episode.
Personally, my favorite part of the final season has been the SJW/Subversion. Season 8 basically amounts to “You can’t trust emotional creatures like women and social justice warriors with power.”
I never watched the show until my wife (who is a huge fan) wore me down. I binge watched all seven seasons over the winter, in anticipation of season eight.
I’ll confess…I love the show. It’s just plain addicting. I’m not much for any television, so this is the first series I’ve truly loved and been excited about in…decades.
That being said, I’m not going through withdrawal now that it’s over. Nor am I going to draw too many contemporary political analogies from any of the shows story arcs. I’m very conservative, but I was sympathtic to Dany up to the point she committed war crimes. I understand how some could interpret her as the archetype of an SJW carried to its logical extreme. Fine. But I just wanted to enjoy the story.
I’m fairly happy with the ending, even though I agree the last season (especially the last few episodes) were rather rushed. Without spoiling anything, I think the ending was consistent with a theme of the series…it was (thankfully) not a “Hollywood Ending”, but it provided plenty of resolution and satisfaction.
The absurd petition for a do over is insulting. Petulant fans in this era of Twitter induced, perpetual outrage, are simply betraying their endless adolescence. They didn’t get what they wanted so…. scream!
To start off, I think you’re either the kind of reader who likes fantasy, or you’re not, and if you’re not, you’ll never like a book like GOT or understand why anybody else does, and there’s no point in arguing about it. I, on the other hand, have fallen firmly in the fantasy/magic camp since I first learned to read, starting with authors like E. Nesbit and Edward Eager, progressing to Madeleine L’Engle (the generator of my moniker here!) and then of course Tolkien, with many more along the way, not to mention efforts to write my own. So it was pretty much inevitable that I’d read these books.
I started the books quite a while ago, not having heard of them yet, when one of my then-college-aged children left the first one at our house just when I ran out of reading material. He warned me not to keep reading them because 1) it would be too violent for me and 2) the author was never going to finish the series and it was too annoying. He was right on both counts, but I did keep going, because the books — at least the first few — were really good. Interesting characters with actual character development, defiance of the fantasy genre by being willing to kill off characters who were shaping up to be heroes (Ned Stark, Robb Stark, Catelin or however it’s spelled) and yes, lots of violence — but much of it seemed necessary for the world and story that was being constructed. Such a richly conceived world with so much mystery woven into it, and so much promise that the story would truly go somewhere and that all the seemingly unrelated pieces would prove to be part of a coherent whole. But I agree with the several commenters who have already said the books began to fall apart as the series went on. It began to seem that the author didn’t know how to finish what he’d started and was just writing hundreds of pages in which nothing really happened, just so he could say he’d brought out another book.
I hoped the TV series might actually be better than the books, and at first it seemed like it might be. Good acting (though not in every case), great camera work and what seemed at first to be a true feeling for what the books were trying to achieve. But THAT didn’t last. Again, as others have said, once the writers ran out of original source material they also seemed to run out of everything good they’d had going for them at first. It got worse and worse, especially in the last season, and the ending just infuriated me. Not because of any of the things that actually happened (except for maybe King Bran — seriously? Where the heck did that come from?) Most of the actual outcomes were reasonable — but it was all so sloppily realized that it was an insult to the viewers. We were just asked to accept that characters would do things that did not fit with anything that had come before, or would not do things that their characters obviously would have done, just to move the plot as the authors wanted to move it. (Why on earth, for instance, didn’t Grey Worm kill Jon? He was the chief of the military and the most powerful person in Westeros after Dany was killed, there was nobody to stop him and he’d been busily killing everyone in sight right up to that moment. But instead, he just tucks Jon in a prison and waits politely for weeks until a bunch of nobles can meet and decide what to do over his head? I don’t think so.)
Everybody who is commenting that it’s a waste of time to get so invested in a fictional world, not to mention a commercial TV undertaking, is absolutely right — except that once you do get invested, you ARE invested, and there it is. And there was so much promise here, and the writers made so little effort to honor that promise toward the end that it was really, really insulting. They asked us to invest ourselves and then didn’t even bother to try to keep the promise, with that rushed, incoherent, largely unbelievable ending. Some of the last episode was written like a sitcom, for crying out loud.
So anyway, you asked what I thought, Neo, and I told you — though you may be sorry now that you did!
“I have not read the books, and won’t until Martin actually finishes them, which I suspect he won’t.” Yancey Ward
You’re probably correct.
My sense is Martin ran out of material…knew he was cranking out crap & couldn’t keep up the pretence any longer.
I should have started off my looooong comment with a warning that it contained spoilers. Too late now, as the edit function has vamoosed. I hope that anyone who cares enough to actually read all that verbiage will also have seen the whole series by now.
Saw a bit of one episode. Recognized Sean Bean, who’s capable of giving a good performance in a good part. Usually plays flawed and self-defeating characters though. Which is kind of odd, since he is one of the least feminine appearing or behaving actors around. Instead: “No … let’s cast the boy with the elf nose and receding chin, in the hero part …”
Five or ten minutes turned out to be enough, then and forever.
Anyway, don’t know if there is a reaonable comparison, but I watched a number of the “Viking” episodes during the first three years. There have been some interesting episodes overall, but a soap opera is still a soap opera even if the cast is wearing wolf-skin capes and iron helmets. Wearing helmets except in battle of course, when the camera needs to face-time their staring exploits. And then, when the gurl-power warrioresses start their light sabre ballets across a field of incompetent Angles and Saxons, posed there to fumble fight and then to be reaped like those shooting gallery Germans that Vic Morrow’s Thompson sub machine gun used to mow down in every episode of “Combat” , I shrug and say … “enough for today” and click off the tube.
I couldn’t stand that nonsense when I was 7 or 8, much less now.
I had zero interest in the show. I saw the first Harry Potter film and lost interest.
Lest anyone think I’m being terribly discriminating, my wife and I watched many seasons of The Walking Dead, though we quit recently. While the whole zombie fan-base is a big factor, it was the fragility of social order, and the consequences of its collapse, that captured my interest. If the pilot episode of TWD doesn’t grab you, it’s likely not for you.
_____
On the flip-side of entertainment, people here on this blog had recommended “The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.” While I was reluctant and fearful of an overtly feminist theme, we loved it. We then moved on to “Gilmore Girls” which was Amy Sherman-Palladino’s previous effort. That one is a very mixed bag (juvenile vs. adult content) but we stuck with it.
Neo, Amy Sherman-Palladino’s bio is interesting. Her father was a Jewish stand-up comic and her mother was a southern belle from Biloxi who got her into dance at a very young age. Amy made it as far as a back-up dancer for Cats. Then she chucked all that and somehow became a comedy writer for the old “Rosanne” TV show.
After having made many $M in comedy writing, she considers herself a “refugee” from sitcoms because the studio writing-by-committee process has wrecked the genre.
While I really like GoT, my favorite at the moment is Westworld. They’ve taken Michael Crichton”s idea and really made a dense, well thought out series. Like many HBO series it starts out with a lot of boobs and bodies, but is fascinating in the idea of AI run amok. Another great series based on Phillips Dickson novel is Man in the High Castle.
And yes, Tmmyjay, Gilmore Girls and Mrs Maisel are very good.
I never watched it, but I became interested in a large blond English actress playing a female warrior – and working hard to do it for real – and read about her and other themes in the show, on the Wikia website. Then I read articles on the news. Had someone near & dear wanted to watch it together, I would have, despite objectionable features. Fantasy and magic, boo, hiss. Icky sex, bummer.
The program got kudos for its realistic costumes & sets. The period realism was a big plus. It’s ok to make up a fictional country, but really medieval English history is jam-packed with jaw-dropping, TRUE stories.
This is what krisped my buns about the double Booker Mann prize winning Hilary Mantel and her Wolf Hall books. This is important history, a real story, and it’s a hum-dinger. But Mantel needed to massage the story-board, and then “resolve” assorted gaps & unknowns in ways that become permanently misleading.
So at least with the fictional place in GoT (and the noxious fantasy stuff), there is no harm done to anyone’s sense of history. Yet the scenery is quite historic.
Haven’t watched it, but ran across an interesting article on why the most recent season is inferior to the others:
https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/the-real-reason-fans-hate-the-last-season-of-game-of-thrones/
The assertion is that the novels and the earlier seasons show how people are driven by the societal climate, the writers of the current season focused only on individual human behavior as the causal agent.
I loved the show, especially the character development, fantastic special effects, and unpredictability of plot line. The actors were mostly new to me and almost without exception did great jobs. I get really bored with predictable shows that mainly come from lazy, uninspired writing.
I realize it was terribly violent but the pre-enlightenment period was what they were going for. Just look at the history books for that period. They were close to the mark.
The ending was the most satisfactory ending I could imagine. It tied up not only the plot but the future of all the main characters. It was some of the best fantasy-fiction ever produced.
Mrs Whatsit wrote:
“Why on earth, for instance, didn’t Grey Worm kill Jon? He was the chief of the military and the most powerful person in Westeros after Dany was killed, there was nobody to stop him and he’d been busily killing everyone in sight right up to that moment.”
I had the same complaint on Althouse’s GoT thread- Jon would have been immediately put to the sword by Daenerys’ men, as would Tyrion, upon her death.
I get the feeling I’m in the minority in my age bracket that has neither read nor watched GoT. Maybe one day I’ll get around to it, but for now I’m not compelled to. I mean, I have my own shows I watch which other probably have no interest in.
Everybody complains about the writers, and what they complain about is the rushing.
Do the writers decide how many more episodes there are? No.
The producers decide how many more episodes there are.
The writers did the best they could with the budget they had, and they did fine.
The producers made business decisions, because this stuff is *expensive*.
Compromises happen.
Power Line Pictures – Game of Thrones Cross-over edition
Collusion and Obstruction
https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-13-at-11.06.39-AM.png?resize=768%2C912&ssl=1
Truthers unleashed
https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-17-at-7.19.49-PM.png?w=922&ssl=1
Oops – wrong universe
https://i2.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-16-at-10.14.01-AM.png?w=1160&ssl=1
What the real Games of Thrones looked like
https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-15-at-12.13.56-PM.png?w=974&ssl=1
When you really, seriously, violate the Prime Directive
https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2019/05/Screen-Shot-2019-05-16-at-2.15.13-PM.png?resize=768%2C1107&ssl=1
Fractal Rabbit on May 21, 2019 at 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm said:
I read the first three books and they were decent.
* * *
**Raises eyebrows into hairline**
Oh!— you mean “interesting enough, but not masterpieces”
Never saw the show and never read the books.
That doesn’t stop me from rolling my eyes when the masses speak of incompetent writing. Would they watch competent writing were it available? Would they criticize competent writing from earlier decades? Is a violence feast competent writing?
Are the people really saying that they just didn’t get the finale they wanted?
There is a reason why some of us would rather watch baseball.
I’ve made it a practice to ignore trendy series, then perhaps a few years later go back and watch them when they are a little dated, which kind of mellows them and makes them less annoying because they are humbled a little bit by their dated ridiculousness, if you follow. I did this with The Sopranos (which, as an Italian, offended me with the low-brow gaucheness and “Guido” type tastelessness of Tony and his wife, the same ignorance that show with Snooky had. Anyway, I’ve found this improves the shows a lot, because all their hip culture references and slang is dated and stupid, and it helps the show rid itself of some of the pretentiousness the fanatics have imparted to it. However, it doesn’t always work. I stopped watching Breaking Bad during the 2nd episode (never saw a film or series glorify drug dealing, although I heard he paid the price later, he sure made out for quite a while). GOT is another I doubt I’ll ever get around to watching.
The executive summary is… I couldn’t make it through Book 2, and saw the first episode of season 1 at the end of season 3 mainly out of a mild curiosity afforded while experimenting with a bittorrent feed.
FWIW, I’ve read thousands of sci-fi and fantasy stories and books over the decades. Many of my favorites, more than once lol. (I lost track of the number of re-reads of Tolkien somewhere far to north of 100x before I was out of my teens… I had entire chapters of LOTR memorized during that period.)
I found Martin’s writing too turgid to maintain my interest – in a story line I found was already becoming an interminable bore – by mid-or-so Book 2.
GoT the story, and Martin the writer, simply wasn’t my cup of tea if you will.
As I recall, the TV production values, writing, and acting were quite acceptable – well done, even – for the episode I watched, though.
As I’ve been entertained by other series’ with far less production panache, and if I’d not already found the story line problematic (and unlikely to age well in a multi volume work the author himself had reportedly grown tired of pursuing), I can imagine having watched it for a somewhat longer period before becoming inevitably disenchanted lol.
So I’m rather unsurprised to read others having been, umm… rather less than satisfied… with the closing season.
My two bits.
Watching hours and hours of Leftist mind control and even paying for the privilege… not exactly a hobby of mine.
Never watched the show, never read the books, never heard anything about either them that made me the least bit interested. As far as I can tell, this author is known mostly for unexpectedly killing off characters one has grown attached to. That is the last thing I would ever want to read or watch. For me, the point of reading books and watching shows is to either learn more about the real world or to experience life as one imagines it should be. Now that I think of it I guess my ideal work of art has both. Call the Midwife is a bit like that — both the show and the books are great — true, sad at times, but overall mostly uplifting.
Edit button is missing — typo in sentence one, should be “either of them.” (The punctuation is off on the last line, too!) I guess I got used to that edit button…
physicsguy on May 21, 2019 at 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm said:
While I really like GoT
That would explain things.
Fractal Rabbit on May 21, 2019 at 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm said:
I read the first three books and they were decent.
That makes sense too.
Too many souls that like certain entertainment but they don’t remember why exactly.
For me, the point of reading books and watching shows is to either learn more about the real world or to experience life as one imagines it should be.
Apparently a lot of Level 1 and Level 2 souls, the super majority of America at the moment, find the world of Game of Thrones familiar enough in their amnesia.
David Foster, thanks for the linked article. Setting aside the contemporary political commentary, the central point about sociological vs. psychological stories is thought-provoking.
They aren’t great books, not even good books. The TV series started out as, possibly, great TV, but didn’t finish that way.
And as for Mrs. Maisel — now that’s great TV, and SO much more fun!
I have read all the GOT books and watched every episode. I am not disappointed by the way they ended the show. That some people are disappointed was inevitable. Had the writers produced an ending that would have pleased those that are disappointed, another group of disappointed folks would appear. C’est la vie.
It seems to me that Martin ran out of steam on the story, can’t figure out where to take it nor conclude it, so I bet it is never finished. Reminds me of Stephen King’s Gunslinger series: started off really well, drifted into mediocrity, and then fizzled out altogether.
I have it on good authority that AOC and Liz Warren are dissatisfied with the finale. Accordingly, count me as an OK.
TV programs interest me very little. Game of Thrones interests me not at all.
I did not watch a single minute of it, I don’t care how it ended, and the hoopla over the finale is a total bore, or worse.
But I’m not bragging; just stating fact.
Saw part of one episode. Found it repulsive.
I just blogged on “Game of Thrones: Conservative Manifesto” the other day.
I watched the last episode with my son (I’d binged the other seasons while exercising last year, having never seen any part of the series until then, and wasn’t going to watch any of this season until all of this season became available and I could get it over with quickly, but son just moved to Houston where I live and was over for the evening – so I watched it), and while he was exclaiming, “Oh, COME ON” at every turn, I was sitting there with my eyebrows semi-permanently stuck high on my forehead at the myriad anti-Left messages. I thought the way it all ended, in boring politics and business-as-usual, was absolutely hilarious (and hilariously subversive), since obviously its audience was going to want something… different from that, and be full of protests that if they WANTED real life, they’d do something else with their Sunday nights. But it never occurred to me in a million years that they’d actually take up their torches and pitchforks and demand a fricking rewrite!
Are we certain this isn’t from the Babylon Bee?
I’m baffled that otherwise intelligent human beings devote any thought at all to fictional universes once they put the book down or shut off the video screen.
I read the Lord of the Rings books back in the 70s, including “The Hobbit.” I read some of them to my kids who were then small. The movies were well done and had edited out many of the side plots and characters. Other fantasy series were Jean Auel’s books about Neaderthals and Cro Magnons, beginning with “Clan of the Cave Bear.” When my younger daughter was about 10, we drove from Seattle to Orange County and listened to the audio book version. The two kids, a 19 year old son and 10 year old daughter loved it and ran into the house when we got home to listen to the last 10 minutes of the book.
That series was pretty well done but the last two books started sounding like soap opera. Her research was pretty well done and has held up well.
My older daughter gave me the GOT first book but I have not read it. I don’t watch TV. I guess my interest in fantasy is dwindling although I did read several of the “Outlander” series of novels.
I watched the three first episodes, got distracted and then didn’t get back to the show because I knew I would have to start over to get the characters and plot back into my head.
Do those who got through the whole shebang recommend GoT? I enjoy well-done fantasy and science-fiction.
George R.R. Martin blew my socks off with a short story about a rich fool who buys several colonies of creatures called sandkings. He forces them to compete and evolve … with the usual consequences. Bad things happen to him.
“Repulsive” is a good description, I think. To me it was almost literally unwatchable.
I think “Skyrim” was FAR more engaging to play, than watch someone else
do it.
“Repulsive” is a good description, I think. To me it was almost literally unwatchable.
neo: As Bart said to Lisa on “The Simpsons”: “If you don’t watch the violence, you’ll never get desensitized to it.”
I guess I’ve become desensitized. I saw Ridley Scott’s “Alien” the day it first hit the theaters. I was expecting some spooky science-fiction. Instead I got “The Texas Chainsaw Murders” in outer space. (True. Scott made everyone on the set watch TTCM so they would be aligned with what he wanted.)
Afterward I was shaken and horrified. In fact I half-expected there would be a nation-wide campaign against the film. But nothing.
Since then I’ve seen “Alien” several times and it no longer bothers me. I love Big Brother.
I am a huge fan of Science Fiction and occasionally Fantasy, and have been fairly voraciously searching for superior examples of these genres, and reading SF&F for more than 60 years. Even done a bit of reviewing.
I loved “The Lord of the Rings,” liked as well and read and re-read series like S.M. Stirling’s Emberverse novels, which certainly have a lot of violence in them.
But, when I saw the promo for the beginning of this series, I decided that I didn’t want to spend my time watching what appeared to me to be series that was way too violent and bloody and, from what I’ve been reading in the last couple of days, a series that also includes what is apparently a lot of soft porn.
I am trying to take a very comprehensive view of, trying to identify the various pieces of the puzzle, the Left’s Gramscian memes, attacks, and campaigns that are–in concert–transmogrifying our culture, and this series, it appears, is one of them.
I do not view it’s popularity as a good thing.
a Change.org petition to remake the series’ eighth season “with competent writers” has surpassed a million signatures and was closing in on 1.1 million as of Sunday afternoon.
Does anyone besides me think this is sad? You certainly don’t see that kind of interest for demonstrably more important issues, such as education reform, immigration reform, etc.
The whole bread and circuses concept certainly fits our electorate.
Snow, you are right that the Game of Thrones is part of the negative transmogrification, and it’s also clearly descended from the great Lord Of The Rings, which I’ve read many times.
Violence, soft porn — consumer vice.
The books are Epic. I started reading them in 2001, when the third book was just coming out. Great, interesting world, with good history, and interesting characters. And violence, and sex.
The series up thru the books was quite good, with most changes fully justified, in some cases even better than books. A critique of GRR Martin is the amount of detail in the books, on food, on people, on little characters which so often pop up again. (Also Tolkien often had huge amount of detail).
The detail prolongs the enjoyment of the plot twists, as well as usually developing characters.
After the books, the series seems to be more violence & sex, less character development.
I hope Martin does finish the books, 6 & 7. He’s a big Trump hater, and Rep-hater, and I wonder a bit what he feels like in the real world, but I don’t now look for more info about him.
He has a new book out about Westeros from many generations before GoT, so he’s keeping busy and writing.
A real problem with market capitalism is that it gives people what they want.
Violence and sex.
LOL. Only the first “Alien” made any sense.
The rest were “rigged” to produce the marketable screen result: full of sweaty cursing screaming and even clownish imbeciles going where they should not, in order that they might be predictably eviscerated by the monster. Whatever happened to the “neutron bomb”? Oh yeah they were trying to capture an all powerful, indestructible, acid bleeding monster that moves at the speed of light, survives airless zero-pressure and temperature environments, and only lives to mount and impregnate your face. So hurry up and climb right into that suspicious air vent while carrying a Zippo lighter for protection.
I’m embarrassed for Ridley Scott. He’s still stuck using chiaroscuro lighting and jump cuts in place of an intelligible plot with rational actor motivation.
As far as Game of Thrones goes, I many, many, years ago lost patience with watching movies I had no real interest in, just in order to see the flash of a bare tit as an actress showered.
The idea of sitting though an hour or more of boring, if raging, yelping idiots, gruesome murders, and repulsive perverts and dwarves having sex, for even less promised reward nowadays, is a transaction I’m unwilling to enter into.
I don’t consume media with gratuitous violence on principle. I believe the Holy Spirit is alive in this world and if I willingly trash up my consciousness I won’t be able to connect with it – however tangentially… Besides, there is enough real violence and evil in the world without making up more!
Having said that, I did see bits of the first few GoT episodes peripherally while other family members watched and had the same reaction as I had to The Hunger Games.
THIS is why we have the 2nd Amendment.
Nice dog, Callahan.
Lord of the Rings was based on various legends, histories, and human oral stories. Essentially, it was a beautified version of reality, just the sort of reality that public education never touches upon as history.
Martin’s channeling of Game of Thrones is part god complex, part deus ex machina, and part writer’s pride. I don’t know where he got it from but Lord of the Rings, unlikely.
Huxley, I remember that story on Outer Limits. It was pretty good. Sandkings, deus ex machina, god as human as man as deus ex machina. He tried to destroy his creation when he realized the problems that were going on.
Well, that’s not gonna happen with Martin and GoT. Too much money. Too late too.
Reviewed from a writing-craft POV by Doc Zero.
I have not watched the series at all, and only made it through 2 1/4 books, when the violence and porn totally derailed the story. It didn’t help that Martin basically disliked his few marginally nondetestable characters.
If you are really interested in the Games of Thrones in actual history,
read the Lymond Chronicles by Dorothy Dunnett.
https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1130479583910928385.html
huxley, I had that same reaction to Alien. Shocked and horrified.
We watched the series 24 for a while. It was a well made show, but they kept cranking up the violence, making it more and more realistic and disturbing. I stopped watching, maybe not soon enough. I started noticing that when I watched that show I a visceral, physical reaction — it pumped up the adrenaline big-time. I guess people enjoy that feeling. I guess I enjoyed it for a while, but then it became too much — the stimulation turned to stress. As someone said above, there’s enough of that in the real world.
We watched the series Bones for a while; you know how it is, you get drawn in by the characters and it becomes a habit. That show always had a predictably disgusting scene in the opening and a few more of them in the beginning. For a while it was a formula so it was fairly easy to know when to look away. Then they started playing gotcha, showing disgusting images when you least expected it. I stopped watching.
I am more desensitized than I want to be. I don’t know if it’s reversible, but I am trying to keep it from getting any worse (or, better, depending on how you look at it…)
If I had any idea what GoT was about I suspect I too would demand a do-over, but rather in the vein of [**more cowbell!**] remonstrating for a greater element of P.G. Woodhouse in the thing, since there seems to have been none at all in the first go-round.
We watched the series 24 for a while. It was a well made show, but they kept cranking up the violence, making it more and more realistic and disturbing.
Sarah Rolph: That’s a classic problem with the long-arc shows, “24” included. They keep having to top the shocks of the previous season.
I thought I was pretty well desensitized, but I had to stop watching “The Walking Dead” and “Sons of Anarchy” each after six seasons.
Right now I’m watching an old 70s BBC show, “Survivors,” about a post-plague world in which only one person out of several thousand survived. It’s grim, but there is an underlying spirit of optimism that somehow people will survive and rebuild. It’s very different from the current brutal post-apocalyptic fare.
I also like the Tom Selleck “Jesse Stone” mystery series. There’s some violence but mostly it’s psychology and suspense.
it pumped up the adrenaline big-time. I guess people enjoy that feeling. I guess I enjoyed it for a while, but then it became too much — the stimulation turned to stress.
It’s a kind of post traumatic stress at that point.
Adventures are fun for the readers because they aren’t traumatized by the difficulties and hardships of doing what the characters do. But they want it to be a visceral story, so that the ycan at least share and sympathize with the character’s difficulties. Becoming the character, strapped the chair as they waterboard you, and you can’t do anything about it, because you are watching 24… that’s a little bit “too real” for some sensitive humans. Others maybe like that enough to the point where they will enjoy it, for a time, and then lash out at Bush’s waterboarding tactics as a way to vent and displace their emotional trauma now. That is probably a far more dangerous incident.