Some announcements in the Moore-Nelson controversy
I didn’t watch Moore’s attorney’s news conference, but here’s a report on it that mentions two things of interest:
Moore’s attorney raised two issues: 1) that Roy Moore was the judge on her divorce case, and 2) demanded Nelson’s attorney, Gloria Allred, hand over the yearbook to a neutral party so the yearbook can be properly forensically analyzed.
I applaud the second; it’s something I mentioned in an earlier post today as something I’d like to see happen.
As for the first—boy, is that interesting. Is it true? I would guess it must be (although I’d like to make sure), because it’s certainly a little detail that could be important in establishing some sort of possible motive for a lie by Nelson. It would help to know not only if Moore really was the judge, but also how the divorce settlement turned out for her and whether he had any sort of role in it other than rubber-stamping an agreement between the parties.
Of course, even if she had reason to be angry at him for some ruling during the divorce, it doesn’t mean she’s lying. It just means she might have a motive to lie other than straight politics. The truth or falsehood of her assertions must rest on more than having a possible motive.
So, was Moore the judge? So far we just have Moore’s attorney’s report, but I doubt they’d be so stupid to allege this if it wasn’t true, because it is very easily verifiable. Here’s the allegation by Moore’s attorney:
Moore’s attorney, Phillip Jauregui, pointed to two things that he said people “ought to know.”
“During the press conference Ms. Nelson and Gloria Allred had on Monday, they both said that Ms. Nelson after the allegations had never seen nor had any contact with Judge Moore. As it turns out, in 1999, Ms. Nelson filed a divorce action against her then-husband Mr. Harris,” Jauregui told reporters in Alabama.
“Guess who that case was before? It was filed in Etowah County and the judge assigned was Roy Moore, circuit judge of Etowah County.”
Also:
Moore’s attorney also noted that Moore told him he never signed “D.A.” after his signature as he was never a district attorney. He instead was an assistant district attorney. However, Jauregui did say that “D.A.” appears after Moore’s name in a filing in Nelson’s divorce case.
This was due to Moore’s assistant, whose initials were “D.A.,” stamping D.A. after Moore’s name in documents.
I was wondering about that “DA” part, since he was not the DA.
Moore’s attorney also mentioned that Judge Moore dismissed Nelson’s divorce action, but doesn’t explain why. I offer a theory, but it’s a theory only. Alabama has had no-fault divorce since 1971 (see page 8 of the link). But, as with many states, a person can petition the court for a fault divorce nonetheless. The fault grounds remain actionable, and people sometimes ask for a fault divorce for various reasons, among them a desire for revenge about a marital offense, and/or because they think (sometimes correctly) that a fault divorce will award them more property.
I have no idea whether Nelson’s divorce petition (the one that was supposedly dismissed by Judge Moore) was something of that sort, but it’s a possibility. He may have dismissed it because he felt the claim was frivolous, or because there was some other problem with the filing. I’d really like to see more information on this.
Don’t be surprised if it is the work of Bannon, laying the traps for Washington Post, eGOP and Gloria Allred to step on. When things are too good to be true, it usually is.
In Chinese we have this idiom:
é’竹蛇兒å£ï¼Œé»ƒèœ‚尾上é‡, 二者皆ä¸æ¯’，最毒婦人心
it translates to: even the poisonous sting of a wasp and the poisonous bite of Trimeresurus stejnegeri can’t compare to the poisonous heart of a hateful woman’s heart.
haven’t been so obsessed with something since the zimmerman trial. This is the real reason Hollywood is on decline, nothing a screenwriter can come up with can rival dramas in reality, nothing.
The inclusion of D.A. should be enough to prove everything is a setup. Why did the forger add D.A. there, it was put there by whoever forged the inscription to make sure That Roy Moore on her yearbook connects to the D.A. republican senate candidate Roy Moore they were trying to frame. There could be tens of Roy Moore living there at that time, a name as common as Joe Johnson.
Please come forward whoever believed this woman and admit to yourself that you got it wrong. The whole thing was a bogus setup without an ounce of logic in it. A DDA trying to rape a girl in his car in public, risking his career for a minute of fun, that the place he chose to commit his act was so open, so easier to be discovered that a random patrol officer walking by can foil the whole thing. Give me a break you idiots, I mean you Mitch Mcconell Ben Sharpio, Mitt Romney, John Mccain, Paul Ryan, please dig a hole to hide your embarrassing faces and never come out please.
and Judge Jeanine too, won’t give her a pass just because she is a Trump gal, no you are an idiot too.
The forger probably saw D.A. on his other signed documents so they put D.A. there to make it look more legit, and that is their downfall, I believe the man, I believe there is a man above overseeing all these evil.
Conservatives may ask, if God existed, why did he allow Obama and Clinton to be president. Let me tell you why, it is because as bad as they were they were even better than George Bush, John Mccain and Mitt Romney, God is like us, he had to choose the least bad from two bad apples too.
I am not a Moore style conservative, in fact I think he is often over the top based on the various sources I read. However, I need in a court of unbaised judges and juores to decide whar I believe. And evn hen I will be a skepyic.
Dave:
IssIah 55:8-9
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways,” says the LORD. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So are My ways.
Why does God allow evil? Another blog topic for another blog.
Dana Loesch asks why, if Moore was so well known as a creeper, was he elected so many times, with large margins?
Why did Luther Strange not present any of this in the primaries?
He had enough money available to him to buy the same witnesses.
I still have two questions though. If the YB was forged, why didn’t they date the inscription in the summer instead of Christmas, which is more believable. If the forger used the court paper as reference, why did they left out the middle initial S? Still don’t think Moore is totally innocent, I guess we’ll see.
Dave:
Even if it was a forgery, the time frame would be set by when he was the Deputy DA and she was working at the restaurant. He had just taken the post during the summer (I’m not sure when; perhaps some time in June), but we don’t know when she started working at the restaurant. She said she stopped working there after the assault, which supposedly happened shortly after the date on the yearbook inscription. So the window of opportunity was not all that big, and the prior June might not have fit the time he was at the job yet and/or the time she was working at the restaurant yet.
Four more women have now accused him of “unwanted advances”.
I suppose he could always try the George Costanza approach — “Was that wrong?”
Well, this is interesting.
I think that, if I had any court case assigned to a man who assaulted me as a teen, I would have asked for a change of judges.
On the DA question, Moore’s lawyer is plausible, but we would have to see some of those stamped documents and especially the divorce-case papers.
* *
Add Ms. Nelson’s stepson (Darrin Nelson) to the mix as well (linked by someone in another thread earlier this week).
Was the divorced husband (Harris) before or after her marriage to Nelson? I couldn’t tell in the reports I found.
http://thegatewaypundit.com/2017/11/stepson-roy-moore-accuser-says-shes-lying-stand-behind-judge-100-video/
And here’s another interesting wrinkle, which can be interpreted for or against Moore: his wife Kayla was in Ms. Nelson’s school class, and is 14 years younger than Moore.
http://www.ajc.com/news/national/roy-moore-accuser-wife-pictured-yearbook-under-same-high-school-class-report-says/oqOz8gUCBlgkVhltvfT0xH/
“ “This is the copy of that yearbook that is on file at the Southside Public Library. I looked through it yesterday. It came out for the class of 1977, who graduated that summer,” Thornton continued before adding, “That same sophomore class also has a picture of Moore’s future wife, Kayla Kisor.”
…
Moore was 38 years old when he married Kisor, who was 24. According to his autobiography “So Help Me God,” he met her just one year prior at a church Christmas party. He said he had seen her many years before, but did not specify where or how old she was at the time.”
* * *
Dave Says:
November 15th, 2017 at 7:14 pm
haven’t been so obsessed with something since the zimmerman trial. This is the real reason Hollywood is on decline, nothing a screenwriter can come up with can rival dramas in reality, nothing.
* * *
A screenwriter would be laughed out of the building for proposing something this crazy (although one could see it as an updated Molié¨re farce).
However, with our current Trial by Pundit system, I feel like I’m in some kind of crowd-sourced Law ‘n’ Order show.
why Focusing on the signatures only, why not find an piece of old writing of his to compare to the rest of the inscription? Even if comparing the signatures is inconclusive, compareing the rest of the writing should be much more conclusive with a much larger sample size.
Ann, that link includes this statement by one of the women:
“The Washington Post reported Wednesday night that two more women came forward and said Moore pursued them when they were young. Gena Richardson said she was in her teens and working at a Sears when Moore approached her. When she wouldn’t give him her number, she says he called her at school.”
* * *
If she didn’t give him her number how did he call her?
Did she have a cell (how many kids, if any, did in the seventies, especially in HS – I knew very few adults who had one then, and I certainly did not). Google says
“The First Mobile Phone Call Was Made 40 Years Ago Today. On April 3, 1973, Motorola employee Martin Cooper stood in midtown Manhattan and placed a call to the headquarters of Bell Labs in New Jersey.”
He didn’t call her at home, although he probably could have found the phone number (there are several ways to do that, and you didn’t even have to be a not-quite-DA).
” “I said ‘Hello?'” Richardson told the Post. “And the male on the other line said, ‘Gena, this is Roy Moore.’ I was like, ‘What?!’ He said, ‘What are you doing?’ I said, ‘I’m in trig class.'” ”
If he called her through the school, he would have had to give the secretary a really good reason to get her out of class to answer (were there phones in the classrooms back then? In Alabama??) — and that would be a really stupid thing to do if he was assaulting girls from the school.
“Richardson said Moore’s overtures caused the manager to tell young women to “watch out for this guy.” Richardson said they went on a date and Moore forcefully tried to kiss her.”
So, she rebuffed his first advance, he stalked her to class, she’s been warned, and then she went on a date with him?
Where’s Ann Landers when you need her?
Ann:
Of course they have. And I bet none of them ever spoke up before, despite all the years he’s been running for office and all the controversy he’s generated over those years.
Again, they may be telling the truth. They may be lying. To me, the fact that a bunch of women who encountered him at one time or another are now saying “Me too!” tells us nothing about their veracity.
What’s more, have you read these new allegations? What is he guilty of, even if they are true? Asking girls past the age of consent, and young women, out on dates? Each new accusation is about the same—completely general and completely unverifiable. “I was working at X store or X restaurant and Roy Moore asked me out!” What on earth is convincing about a story like that? The person doesn’t even have to prove she ever met him! It’s sufficient that she had a job in the town at the right time. She says she met him and he asked her out—and she says this only after she’s heard all the other stories.
Excuse me for being profoundly underwhelmed by both the charges themselves and the probability of their being true.
I really don’t care if Roy Moore actually went out with 17-year-olds when he was in his early 30s, before he was married. It not something I’d ever recommend, but it’s not child molestation and it is a traditional type of coupling that has led to many good marriages. He seems to have had a basically good marriage for about 30+ years since then.
And believe me, I’m not a Roy Moore fan. But I refuse to believe things that are unsupported by evidence, and I’m surprised and disappointed at how many people are willing to do just that. Although really, I should not be surprised.
I have an outlandish theory, what if the inscription was written by a guy named Ray who didn’t write down his last name, and all she needed to do is add Moore and the rest of it.
Dave Says:
November 15th, 2017 at 11:12 pm
I have an outlandish theory, what if the inscription was written by a guy named Ray who didn’t write down his last name,and all she needed to do is add Moore and the rest of it.
* *
Been there, said that already.
AesopFan, Dave:
And that random guy named “Roy” just happened to have handwriting very much like the real Roy Moore’s? Do you really think that makes sense?
you did? sorry, busted that i don’t read all the comments.
Could be Kay too, the R actually looks more like K. I have not seen any other Roy Moore writings other than his letter to Jenny, So I cannot make comparison to determine if those handwriting other than the signature in fact resembles moore’s
Here’s a picture of the yearbook inscription: https://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2017/11/roy-moore-hoax-2.jpg
1. It appears to be written in two different inks.
2. the M in Merry and the M in Moore don’t match.
3. The 7s (each in their own color ink) don’t match.
4. Yearbooks are handed out at the end of the school year. Why would this woman be carrying hers around 6 months after the fact, just so “Roy” could wish her a Merry Christmas in it.
I’m no fan of the guy, but this stinks.
The D. A. part is the key revelation of the press conference, in my opinion. If Moore’s court ruling in Nelson’s divorce really was stamped by an assistant with those initials, that greatly undermines the yearbook claim. It makes all but certain that, at the very least, the DA in yearbook was added in the last few months, and maybe even the day of Nelson’s and Allred’s press conference. And if that was added, what are the odds that any part of that signature is valid?
Victor Belmont,
I would be careful- electronic images can be manipulated by color enhancements on parts of the image. You really would have to have the yearbook in front of you to determine whether or not the inks really were different colors.
However, let’s assume they are different colors- then it answers one of the issues I had with the entire thing- that Moore signed his last name and DA. Those parts would then appear to have been added along with the specific date and the location at a later time. I suspect that Allred will never allow that yearbook part to be subjected to forensic analysis by anyone unless forced to by a court order, and they only way that happens is if Moore sues for defamation.
To the other commenters, that signature looks like Moore’s- I have seen authenticated documents with Moore’s signature. If it is a forgery, it may only a partial one, or it may be entirely a forgery. If Victor Belmont’s claim above about the inks is correct, then, at the very least, it appears Moore did sign this year book with “Roy”, but everything else added after that was done so recently.
neo-neocon Says:
November 15th, 2017 at 11:37 pm
AesopFan, Dave:
And that random guy named “Roy” just happened to have handwriting very much like the real Roy Moore’s? Do you really think that makes sense?
* *
Dave, not surprised you missed it — there are a lot of comments on these threads. Here’s what I said on the “unverifiable accusations” post:
neo-neocon Says:
November 15th, 2017 at 8:56 pm
Dave:
One thing that’s clear is that it’s not a different Roy Moore who signed it. The signature is either Roy Moore himself, or a forgery of his signature, because it certainly resembles his actual signature.
AesopFan Says:
November 15th, 2017 at 9:56 pm
It could be a different Roy without being a different Roy Moore.
Has anyone looked through the yearbook for all the Roys?
* *
Neo, yes I do think they could be different people with similar signatures. Looking at them closely, there are distinct differences in the shapes of the R and the Y, especially the latter. That might be attributable to changes over time; I don’t know how signatures morph. However, looping on an R is not uncommon, and I have seen signatures with both kinds of y-shapes, so that is not uncommon either. There really are only so many ways you can make some letters and still have them legible (my sig is not legible at all).
We’re already being asked to believe a lot of coincidences; what’s one more? 😉
I’m not wedded to the idea that another “Roy” has become embroiled unwittingly, but it’s not impossible. The ink might even be different colors because his first pen ran dry (it’s happened to me many times).
However, given that even untutored laymen can make plausible charges and counter-charges, I’m sure the attorney battles will be ferocious.
In re the “get an expert” challenge, here’s the latest news:
http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2017/11/15/roy-moore-campaign-to-gloria-allred-release-the-evidence-to-determine-whether-there-is-fraud/
“Update: Following the public request from Moore’s campaign, Allred released a statement that she and her client would only agree to the examination of the yearbook by “an independent expert or experts” after a U.S. Senate committee agrees to initiate a hearing into the Moore accusations, CNN reported.”
We already have a galaxy of committee investigations; what’s one more?
Cagey, but maybe overplaying her hand here.
PowerLine is on the yearbook chase here
http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2017/11/roy-moores-defense.php
and the commenters are making many of the same points as this blog’s readers.
It does raise one more question for me, because of this:
“The attorney’s first point was that Nelson denied encountering Moore ever again after the alleted (sic) attempted rape. However, Moore actually presided over Nelson’s divorce case in 1999 and signed the order in that case.”
Moore claims he never knew Nelson, so what’s the deal here? Possibly he just forgot, until someone started digging into his papers. Maybe it was a confusion over names (original surname and 2 married ones so far). Not a deal-breaker for me.
My personal opinion is that “It is a capital mistake to theorize before you have all the evidence.”
And we will never have all the evidence, just the part that people are willing to share.
neocon says What’s more, have you read these new allegations? What is he guilty of, even if they are true?
I don’t think that addresses a crime, but didn’t he say at first he didn’t recall dating women that young? I might have that wrong, as I don’t remember his initial response. There’s been so much said since then. Anyway, correct or incorrect statements address credibility in general even if they don’t address a particular crime.
the New accusations are made up to fill up quota to satisfy the newly established bill Crosby rule – sheer number of accusations equals automatically guilty
Don’t look for Roy or Ray only, look for a Kay too. Those handwriting could be easily be a woman’s.
Our theory makes sense because everything up to the world Roy was written with a different color than the rest of it.
Why was the middle initial left out, because the already existed Y has a tail that ends horizontally which was hard to connect to a S, the forger must be thinking “hey maybe the judge only use the middle initial on official documents, for more casual occasions I can probably get away with leaving out the S”
I can’t get into the he said/she said aspects of this whole issue. I think what bothers me about Moore is that as a 30-year-old professional, he seemed to have more interest in teenage girls than in women. Does this say something about an inability to interact with women on a deeper level? Was his interest purely sexual or was he unable to find someone older with whom he might have shared other interests? Was he interested in women he could control, or was he afraid that he might be challenged in his thinking. He seems to compartmentalize his life, which sort of fits with his unwillingness to bring his religious beliefs into sync with his respect for the legal system.
The age difference per se is not the issue for me. I was a very different person at 15 and at 25 because I had more life experience. I had had more time to develop interests other than pop music and shoes.
As I said before, Moore is a weirdo. He and Bannon are good at pushing peoples’ buttons. They aren’t good at helping them think through problems.
If people refuse to read the thread of comments, perhaps we should repeat ourselves every ten comments.
I see it as respect of my fellow commenters to read their comments.
Except artflgr. I give up after the first ten paragraphs.
But I try.
Regarding the girl claiming to have taken a call from Moore in trig class, here’s the first commercially available cellphone from Motorola, in 1983. Note the price is about $9,000 in today’s dollars. It’s also a big bulky thing that would be way out of place in a classroom. It’s nothing like today’s tiny phones. If you want to see on in action watch Wall Street with Michael Douglas as Gordon Gecko made in 1987. There’s a scene where he takes a call in Central Park with one of these things, which is a sign of his wealth.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_DynaTAC
This is a pure political hack job.
“I can’t get into the he said/she said aspects of this whole issue. I think what bothers me about Moore is that as a 30-year-old professional, he seemed to have more interest in teenage girls than in women.”
I guess that you are unfamiliar with the VERY religious be they Protestant . Orthodox etc.
Under normal circumstances, he would have married a woman of his denomination by 21 and have had 5 kids by 30.
however he went to West point and then Nam. He wouldn’t marry a local girl with different values fromHighland Falls, nor bring back a beautiful Vietnamese girl.
Upon his return to Alabama, the religiously compatible women he grew up with are married , divorced or widowed or no longer observant or have been around the block. and their clocks have been ticking.
He wanted a virgin who could give him a large family!
And that random guy named “Roy” just happened to have handwriting very much like the real Roy Moore’s? Do you really think that makes sense?”
It is not so much like Moores. If it were nobody would have noticed the obvious forgery.
Here’s Gordon Gecko taking a cellphone call in 1987.
https://youtu.be/sLAan2iZs_Y
why is it that when Reps are accused of sexual assault or harassment, there is never sex?
like when the left conflates Thomas with Weinstein, Dodd, Clinton et al. The worst Thomas was accused of was bad pick up lines.
anyone else remember when Hatch outed Hill for lifting the Long Dong Silver story right out of a Law Journal.
Just like the badly forged yearbook, with a compliant media they don’t even have to try that hard.
https://postimg.org/image/w6cyq9mhx/
Don’t be surprised if it is the work of Bannon, laying the traps for Washington Post, eGOP and Gloria Allred to step on.
Bannon is speaking Saturday night in Tucson I have VIP tickets and, if I get the chance, I’ll ask him. He probably won’t answer but the smile might be revealing.
By the way, the VIP tickets were sold out a few days ago and when I looked again, they were available. They may have underestimated the demand.
I find liberals to be hypocrites that all of a sudden the free love tolerant don’t judge professor dating student liberals have issues with a problems will a 32 year old young man dating legal 16 -22 yo women only when he is a republican 1 month before the election. You can see them back paddling now saying even he didn’t sexual assault them it is still veryinappropriate and disqualify able.
Perhaps at 32 Moore was having a quarter life crisis, he longed his youthful days or maybe he missed out love life in high school because he was too focus in his studies, why judge him on liking younger legal girl, you people have no problem and understanding when Kevin Spacey did it in American beauty, oh wait sorry another bad example, just try to say it is a middle age and quarter life crisis thing. I am at the same age and going through the same thing so I understand, the same deal with 30 year old professionals collecting sneakers or action figures and video games because we didn’t have money to buy those when we were young but now we do.
Remember one thing also, Roy Moore married late too, almost remaining single until forty, he was just a late settlers and youthful man. Look at him now at 70 he still looks full of energy and youthful riding and doing all kind of outdoor activities
I am here to offer an explanation to shoot down argument that it was inappropriate for Moore to date younger girls. In the 70s especially Alabama women married early unlike today, where could Moore find 25-30 quality unmarried young women that fit into his age group to date as a young 32 successful young man? The quality wouldn’t be good either for a woman to remain single at late 20s back in those day, to find an quality and available mate the choice was limited and he had to go young. Another experience talk, for a single 30 something finding a single woman to date is difficult enough today since most women in my age group already in a steady relationship imagine the 70s
Obviously, no liberal could ever vote for a believing Muslim, or trust one in office, since the very founder of the vicious feast was a – quite successful and notorious – rapist pedophile. To vote for someone affirming such a prophet or belief system, is then to affirm its moral peer representation and status, one’s self.
I will leave Mitt Romney to sort out the implications of historic Mormon sexual morality for himself.
And for those who wish to object that our hypothetical X, although being a member of such and such an organization has never himself practiced the particular abomination in question, one can only reply with the interrogation: “If so why not?”
Opportunity, taste, or moral principles?
For the answer to that question must be either on the one hand that doing so is seen as wrong and reprehensible, and therefore by implication so is the substance of the faith; or, on the other hand that doing so was simply seen as inopportune, or inconvenient, or just not to X’s personal taste … but is not in X’s judgment an unequivocal wrong, reprehensible per se, and morally disqualifying for any position of public trust.
Now I cannot personally state that I know whether these accusations against Moore are true in part or in whole or in some mix.
And I think that even given Moore’s being out of circulation during his 20’s, an interest at 30 years old in teen girls in general, is a bit odd … much less ones as young as 16 to 18. Unless perhaps you are a 30 year old Daniel Boone and the nearest nubile female is a six years past menarche 19 year old in the next holler 3 miles over who “has her cap set for you” as they used to say: which would not be an offense against nature, but would still be unbecoming.
avi,
If Moore was simply looking for a younger wife, wouldn’t he have been associating with families from his congregation. I don’t think checking out the mall is the way to find a good partner.
you think families from his congregation want a man of 32 dating their single young daughters when there are better options like other guys from congregation in similar age range? The fact remains that single 25-30 available women are scarce in a conservative town in the 70s, most of them already were married or with a long term partner, the rest of them are undesirable leftovers. He had to expand the source, if not a mall or restaurant then where? it is not like there was eharmony back then.
of course he was sort of fooling around too, but so far not one accuser claimed she had sex with him, he could very well still be a virgin at 32.
Do you also know that his wife was only 24 when they got married, when Moore was almost 40 so in fact he was searching for a woman in that age group to start a family. Why do people have problems with him dating young girls but have no problem for the fact that he actually married one?
Kayla Kisor was 24 when she married Roy Moore, he was almost 40, so the fact is he was indeed searching for a girl in that age group to start a family. Why do people have a problem with him dating young girls but no problem with him actually married one for over 30 yrs?
It makes so sense to me that if dating a girl 16 years younger is a crime for you that he should disqualified from any elections, then why didn’t you say nothing when he married a girl who was more than 16 years young than him, why object now?
I don’t want to hear about Moore & young women when we got baby-face Macron marrying his grandmother.
But skip all that…c’mon Neo…bring me some Al Franken!
The photo alone…10,000 words.
This incident touched a nerve with me because it is an epitome of the problem of today’s society, some actions have been appropriate for a long time suddenly become inappropriate just because a certain person did it and this person is someone the MSM and deep state want to destroy so they somehow twisted a perfectly normal action into abnormal to get this guy with restricting everyone else freedom as a result of consequences.
So are you saying that 30s old single men are no longer appropriate to date and marry late teens or early 20 women which was perfectly fine for so long? so we should give up our rights so the establishment can twist the standards just to get their political oppositions? These things have public implications.
I will pretend to be a liberal to give my previous message an insulting reply-
oh you are just an old man trying to keep his privilege to molester little children…
Side bar off topic note (Since this wont ever show up if i wait)..
Stealth plane with no transponder, inside US borders around oregon.. unidentified, planes scrambled, lost..
recording here
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmfr/ZSE-KMFR-14-15-Oct-25-2017-0030Z.mp3
http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kmfr/ZSE-KMFR-14-Oct-25-2017-0100Z.mp3
The audio is fantastic as it illustrates that there were many communications between various jet crews and Seattle Center whose controllers tried to track the aircraft as it made its way north towards the Willamette Valley. The aircraft was not able to be tracked on radar nor did it show up on crews’ digital traffic collision avoidance systems (TCAS), but it was clearly there, although never quite close enough to positively identify what its exact type was.
NORAD’s reply was quick and clear. An incident involving multiple airline crews, air traffic control, and F-15Cs from the 142nd Fighter Wing based out of Portland did occur. According to the limited information NORAD supplied, airliner pilots were asked by FAA air traffic controllers to help track and possibly identify a “white aircraft” traveling in the flightlevels nearby–roughly between 35,000 and 40,000 feet based on the radio recordings. NORAD also said that the incident did result in F-15s from Portland being scrambled to investigate, but by the time they got up and “looked around” the mystery aircraft couldn’t be found.
the 142nd Fighter Wing operates F-15Cs upgraded with the most capable air-to-air radar set in the world (AN/APG-63V3) and Sniper advanced targeting pods for long-rang visual identification. Their pilots are some of the best in the world and are highly trained in the homeland air defense mission. The fact that they “didn’t find anything” is surprising to say the least. Maybe this was due to the nature of the aircraft being searched for, or the possibility that they launched long after it was first sighted, or that we simply aren’t being told the whole story.
-=-=-=-
It was initially heading SW and it made a pretty sharp turn to the North. Way harder/faster than what a commercial aircraft could handle at that speed/altitude without ripping the wings off.”
-=-=-=-
???
expat Says:
November 16th, 2017 at 12:16 pm
avi,
If Moore was simply looking for a younger wife, wouldn’t he have been associating with families from his congregation. I don’t think checking out the mall is the way to find a good partner.
except the mall story is a fake
http://www.wbrc.com/clip/13905910/former-gadsden-mall-manager-says-roy-moore-wasnt-banned
Other than PERHAPS being a creep more than 32 years ago, on the “sex abuse” front what has Roy Moore actually done besides allegedly engaging in sexual acts with a 14 year old?
I ask, because we currently don’t know the truth or accuracy of the 14 year old’s accusation. That purported incident aside, how do the other alleged acts from MORE THAN 30 YEARS ago disqualify Moore from being a U.S. senator?
Take the accusation of Beverly Young Nelson. Haven’t most young women gone through similar episodes and forgot about the ones involving guys they were not interested in in that way, and remembered those with guys they thought might be nice?
A couple of points about the peculiarity of this story.
Gadsden, Moore’s home town had a population of 53,000 in 1970 dropping to 47,000 by 1980, so this isn’t a small town. The idea that Moore’s behavior was “common knowledge” in a town of 50,000 is unlikely.
As to the defense that Moore married a woman 14 years younger at age 38, isn’t much of a defense. Dating or marrying women in their 20’s wouldn’t raise an eyebrow. A 32 year old dating someone in college 18-21 wouldn’t cause concern.
Dating a senior in high school, 17-18 years old would probably raise a few eyebrows.
But dating, or attempting to date a sophomore in high school at age 16 is not normal by current standards.
Add to this, if Moore were looking for a potential wife, which I don’t find particularly unusual– since dating is merely part of the process of finding a compatible partner, there were several college’s in Gadsden, notably Gadsden State Junior College and Harry M. Ayers State Technical College which offered training in areas that would have attracted females.
Having said all that, it wasn’t a crime to try and date girls past the age of consent– and while unusual, it appears that Moore has been unusual most of his life.
So this all falls on the two current allegations and the first of sexual contact with a 14 year old being the most serious.
Based on the comments of other women, then girls, that said Moore attempted to date or did date them, nothing indicates a pattern of force.
I find it interesting that the information (and graphics) about the likely forgery in the yearbook was already available out on the internet at the time Mitch McConnell pulled the rug out from under Moore and declared that he would stand with the women.
Don’t those Codgers in Congress realize that news travels faster on the ‘Net than anywhere else, and in most instances, the facts are actually there on the ‘Net, even when surrounded by a cloud of fakes. One learns over time which ‘Net sites to rely upon.
Like here.
Moore should take a polygraph test. Yes, I know they’re not perfect, but they’re pretty good. You have to be highly trained, a true sociopath, or someone who is absolutely convinced that they are telling the truth to fool one. If he went on the box and passed, it would put a lot of pressure on her to do the same. The results would be very interesting.
As far as 32 year-olds going after young girls (above the age of consent, of course) this is ubiquitous: college professors and students, airline pilots and stewardesses, rockers and groupies. In many cultures, it’s simply de rigueur. And I don’t know where you folks live, But in Los Angeles, men with girlfriends or second wives half, one-third, or even one-fourth their age is pretty normal — Hugh Hefner, anyone?
avi Says:
November 16th, 2017 at 2:24 pm
…
except the mall story is a fake
http://www.wbrc.com/clip/13905910/former-gadsden-mall-manager-says-roy-moore-wasnt-banned
* * *
I’m glad to see that someone finally checked.
Problems: the former mall manager is a Moore supporter.
Solution: he says they have written reports when something like that happens, so verification will depend on if papers that old are still available.
Regarding Bevery Young Nelson’s divorce case, there is this:
https://thinkprogress.org/roy-moore-beverly-nelson-divorce-2aeaeeb17ce9/
The situations of the Mall and the Divorce Papers are another entry into the peculiar institution we have developed: crowd-sourced justice.
We are essentially watching the process of discovery in real-time, with self-appointed defense and prosecution teams assembling evidence and refuting / validating each other on-the-fly.
I argued in another thread (which I can’t find now — there are so many) that maybe this is the modern version of due process even though it is outside the court system.
We have multitudes of competing expert witnesses, not just the ones paid by the defense and prosecution.
We have no bar on what can be introduced into evidence because of legalities (Miranda warning, tainted evidence, broken chain of possession, etc.) or judge’s whims (you know it happens).
The Jury isn’t limited to 12 people picked at random, but includes everyone interested in playing — with a corresponding “averaging” of knowledge, intelligence, and ideology that might actually produce a more reasonable verdict.
The verdict isn’t at the mercy of a single ideological judge.
We are essentially watching the process of discovery in real-time, with self-appointed defense and prosecution teams assembling evidence and refuting / validating each other on-the-fly.
Which might be more or less just depending on if both sides have equal access to resources.
Ymar Sakar Says:
November 17th, 2017 at 1:51 pm
Which might be more or less just depending on if both sides have equal access to resources.
* * *
That is always a factor in criminal and civil trials, which is why prosecutorial malfeasance and harassment suits are such a problem: both depend on the prosecution / plaintiff out-resourcing the defendant with either time or money.
Another inequity is that rich defendants can “beat the rap” more easily than poor ones, and that applies to both the innocent and the guilty.
However, since on the internet both sides have essentially unlimited resources, just depending on who takes an interest in the story, the inequality of resources may not be as much of a factor.
One objection to crowd-sourcing justice is the inability to “vet” the evidence and its procurers, but that is a problem in court trials also (there are some hair-raising stories about dueling experts, incompetent forensic labs, planted evidence, forgeries, etc.).
Since anyone can challenge other people’s credentials and “investigate” themselves, that may be more equitable over the internet also.
(Classic case is PowerLine’s takedown of the Dan Rather memo after typewriter and word-processor experts got involved.)
On the “thorns” side, we get the 9/11 Truthers and the Obama Birth Certificate doubters to add to the Kennedy assassination and Elvis Lives! crowd.
However, they are sensibly relegated to the fringes of the debate once a consensus forms.
Also on the negative side, every consensus is two-pronged: one on the left and one on the right (Swiftboat Veterans, and even the Memo).
So, even though I support due process and trial by jury, maybe technology has just moved them out of the brick-and-mortar venues onto the Webz.
Which makes me marginally more understanding of Romney’s statement that “Innocent until proven guilty is for criminal convictions, not elections.” — I now take the second phrase to mean “the public has the right to pass judgement using whatever evidence they find acceptable.”
I still object strongly to the first phrase, but am willing to concede that some people’s “bar” for acceptable evidence is so low they slide from “innocent” to “guilty” really really really fast.