Catholic France may fight back
Though the internecine conflicts wracking the Arab world ensure the war against the Islamic State is hardly a war on Islam, the jihadis are bent on a clash of civilizations. And by martyring French Catholics who are Old Christendom’s flesh and blood, they’re one step closer to getting one.
Whatever the extent of Western reluctance or prudence, the truth is there’s no better way to shake Europe out of what many now see as its guilt-ridden paralysis than to assault French Catholicism ”” the oldest, most ingrained force that transcends nationalism in Europe’s most powerful proud nation.
Would that it were true. But secularism rules Europe, not Christianity in any form. Church attendance in France is about the lowest in the world.
I think Poulos is counting on seculars feeling defensive about one of “their” cultural and historical uniting principles.
Not sure. Opposing religion is a virtue-signaling mechanism. Nothing, not even islamism, can be worse than orthodox Catholicism.
The French whom I have known (including my exwife, her relatives and friends) have all been somewhat violently secular and anti-religious. Who and where are the French Catholics? I’m really not sure. The French Revolution of 1789 was violently anti-clerical, and established a prejudice in most citizens’ minds. Not just the intelligentsia, either.
Richard Aubrey Says:
August 5th, 2016 at 4:12 pm
I think Poulos is counting on seculars feeling defensive about one of “their” cultural and historical uniting principles.
Not sure. Opposing religion is a virtue-signaling mechanism. Nothing, not even islamism, can be worse than orthodox Catholicism.”
Look at the ISIS Dubiq issue 15. http://www.clarionproject.org/factsheets-files/islamic-state-magazine-dabiq-fifteen-breaking-the-cross.pdf
Note the first image in the Why WE Hate You, article.
An image of an RC priest consecrating the host.
France? Fight back?
Catholic in symbols only, like much of the euro-anglo-sphere, France has been attacked repeatedly and their streets painted in blood…and crickets, hashtags, & piles of flowers. In other words, they are looking for the right words to “We give up.”
Excuse me re picture: “elevating the host” afterward.
The Muslims who slit the throat of a Catholic priest saying mass probably didn’t know they were in Rouen, where Joan of Arc was tried and burned at the stake. It is a deeply Catholic area.
If they wanted to anger French Catholics with not just murder but desecration, Rouen was a good place to do so.
Europe would be hard pressed to commit to a full blown and sustained pogrom. I think the fight is best fought with 21 century tactics, morality, and munitions. If the Catholics rise against secularism the militaries of those jurisdictions should put them down hard.
There are problems with a surface analysis. France isn’t still in the 790’s or the 1790’s. The government has a longstanding policy of secularism, and Mass attendance is low overall, but there is considerable devotion in the rural areas. The majority of the people may not be religious, but religion could become a rallying point for them. The French have a strong cultural identity that mostly revolves around the language, and it keeps them from completely blending into the Nation of Europe. I have no guess as to whether Catholicism will emerge as a force in France.
It’s actually interesting that Islamic terrorists have not targeted Christian worship in the West. They do so in the Middle East.
Even ten years ago, however, the French secularists whom I knew hated “Arabs.” Muslims did plenty to inflame this, from the “youth” always traveling in menacing packs to these same driving around at 0400 blasting angry sermons from some imam, intentionally seeking to wake everyone up. They are loathed.
The French are also disarmed, and accustomed to being disarmed. If you handed someone 25 yrs old a gun they’d think they needed to take a government-authorized class before they could use it.
“Nothing, not even islamism, can be worse than orthodox Catholicism.”
Apparently Aubrey is anti-Catholic.
Even so, an ill-considered and uninformed remark.
It is best to judge a group, any group, by its overall makeup and membership rather than the statistically occasional deviant. That is indeed what the Trump crisis is all about for the GOP, for example.
There is a great deal of humility among practicing Catholics, and in the liturgy. The admission of personal sins to another human, and to God, is key.
There is no free press in France so whatever secret mean things the French police and security forces do offstage will remain secret although I’m sure Amnesty Int’l and Human Rights Watch will want to shock some delicate consciences when they can, to boost their funding. Who will run such stories? Well, we’ll see.
I believe the French socialist government and the French police and the French armed forces and all their families as well as the permanent aristocracy in France have been highly aware that this sort of trouble from imported Arabs (mostly from Algeria and Morocco) was coming, and that these French are not suicidal.
So perhaps they have some things planned.
Mysterious outbreaks of disease in the tightly-occupied Arab banlieues? It ain’t getting into Le Soir or Le Monde.
To be hoped for despite how unlikely. There was no ‘we are all catholics now’ outcry at the murder of a priest, in church at mass, in the town where France’s patron saint was burned at the stake. No protest marches in solidarity.
I suspect the attack in Nice has the French ready to panic.
Essentially agnostic, secularists are by definition hedonistic, as what else is there to live for… hedonists place self first and that is poor soil for national sacrifice.
Richard Aubrey, “Nothing, not even islamism, can be worse than orthodox Catholicism.” I can’t believe you mean this seriously. If so, you have a very warped understanding of western history.
France closed 20 mosques after the priest killing. They are starting to play hard ball.
Muslims in France may be unpleasantly surprised.
It’s not well-known, in fact the French government kept it a close secret for decades, but the French police attacked an Algerian demonstration in 1961 and murdered at least 37, some say 100-300.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_massacre_of_1961
Frog and SharonW:
I suspect Richard Aubrey was referring to the “secular” (leftist?) French. At lest that’s how I took it.
Frog. Sharon. Missed the point. To the virtue-signaler whose particular thing is orthodox Catholic, nothing can be worse. That’s how you signal the strength of your virtue. Make excuses for Nice and refer to the Crusades.
Richard Aubrey–I did misunderstand. Thank you for the explanation.
Richard Aubrey: You might want to expand your posts, for clarity.
Who and where are the French Catholics? I’m really not sure.
Normandy. That northwest peninsula whose duchy I forgot the name of by now.
Then there are the Burgundian French, the ones closest to Switzerland and Italy. Then there’s the southwestern French, which were once bastions of the last defense line against Islam and who once protected Cathar Christians from the Pope. There’s a lot of regions, which aren’t based on cities, which the old French ties may still reside.
Btw, “Normandy” isn’t just a beach front, it’s an actual duchy in size.
https://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/2016/07/06/jean-de-arc/
As for Jean De Arc, that was my recent research look into her. A lot of details cropped up as a result. What modern people or Europeans think they know about their history, and the various details that has been forgotten, two different things. Humans have a habit of nostalgia or of changing their history. Just consider the US Confederate slave lord view of CW 1 vs the pro Lincoln Union version.
Over the years, I’ve met quite a few French people, but I’ve neither married nor divorced any of them. In that misfortune, I defer to miklos000rosza. As it happens, his comments are consistent with my own impressions of the French: devoutly secular, unarmed, and silenced by their own government.
I did take the time to read the article by James Poulos, but regret that I didn’t find it more convincing. In his partial defense, I’ll pass on the impression that I’ve had of some slightly more conservative French. While still completely secular, they see themselves as secular Catholics. They’d never consider attending Church services, and they have little respect for the priests, but the virulence of French anti-Catholicism has been going on for a long time, and to some extent, it has burned itself out.
Since so few French are practicing Catholics, and since the Church has such little influence, French Catholicism has been pacified. It’s no longer seen as a threat to the secular state, the secular individual, or the secular psychology. As such, it’s become easier to see Catholicism as a part of French culture, as a part of being French. When ISIS and Arabs attack the French identity, The Church may serve as a cultural lever against violent Muslims.
This is pretty speculative; and, as far as I can tell, it’s not what Poulos meant to say in his article.
Wishful thinking. Somebody (else), someplace is going to take care of this (because it doesn’t look as if we will).
As for Jean De Arc, that was my recent research look into her. A lot of details cropped up as a result. What modern people or Europeans think they know about their history, and the various details that has been forgotten, two different things.
Ymarsakar: Nice summary of Joan. These days people assume that she was mentally ill which led to her death. However, an open-minded review of her life is quite problematic.
Unlike most crazy people, Joan became stronger and much more resourceful on account of her condition. As a teenager she was able to master the martial arts of her time and then convince a king, his court and his military leader to let her lead armies into battle, some of which she won. Very strange.
Vita Sackville-West, an agnostic, a member of the Bloomsbury Circle and Virigina Woolf’s lover, wrote a biography of Joan in 1936. West was unable to reconcile Joan’s story with scientific materialism nor was she able to accept the Catholic version that Joan was a saint guided by God. She threw up her hands at the end of the book.
Christianity has comparatively few warrior saints, but Joan is one and a major one at that. One can hope that these Muslims have awoken a potent dormant spirit among the French and Catholics in general.
Agree with Cornflour that Catholicism is just part of the French culture; like wine, fashion or art but way less important.
Also highly distressed with the Jesuit Pope’s weasel words on Islam.
I don’t consider Islam a religion at all. How can it be a religion when its founder was a murdering warlord? Religion is just a cover story for its social-economic-legal system of control.
Islam is also completely incompatible with the West. We have no duty to admit anyone to this country much less Muslims. Islam will never modernize or moderate itself; it hasn’t changed since 800.
But few get it. “Let’s be nice to this oppressed minority.” I say wipe out ISIS, put a $20 tariff on OPEC oil and make them all stay in their hell hole countries. We will continue to sell them movies and iPhones. Screw’em. America first.
The people of Europe are simply not up to it. It will be a slow grinding until Islam is about 25-30% of the population (I estimate it happens in about 40 years), and then it tip over quite quickly. Numbers matter some, but intensity of belief matters more.
Yancey
Demography is destiny. Native birth rate in Frsnce, Italy and Spain is abysmal.
Speaking of demography, I experienced a first at the rally for Hillary in Omaha. I sat next to a young (30 or younger) white farm girl dressed in Muslim garb (head to toe) with three young girls. I’m thinking, how could you be so stupid? What the hell happened to you? Obviously a Dem. This would have been unthinkable in Omaha 20 years ago.
Mike Pence in CB on Monday. That’ll get that vile taste out of my mouth after swimming in that Dem cesspool.
The enemy of France isn’t foremost Islam. It’s the socialists who weakened their resolve and self-respect to the point that they couldn’t defend themselves.
Islamism is an opportunistic infection.
islam must be destroyed
One can hope that these Muslims have awoken a potent dormant spirit among the French and Catholics in general.-Hux
I mentioned before, and G6 posted a lot of links somewhere, about National Front being connected to Jean De Arc. As in, they use Jean as a mascot or ideal to aspire to. Especially by their women, which includes the niece or younger female relative of Marine le Pen, Marion.
National Front was the previous right wing anti semitic party in France, but leadership was transfered from the clan patriarch (a sort of Donald Trum like patriarch) unto his smarter and more savy daughter, Marine Le Pen.
By anti semitic, I don’t mean anti Jewish, I meant anti Semitic, as in that entire language and ethnic region which includes Arabia and Syria. Spain and France have a lot of historical reasons why they don’t like Muslims or Jews who worked for the Muslims or anyone from that region. Some of it is outdated but… well a lot of it is more relevant than people wanted to believe.
Unless Europe and America begins to demonstrate that the people deserve victory, even wiping out Islam won’t do any good. Islam got the way it got by following evil leaders. The West is going down the same path, even if they declare victory against their foreign rivals. What profits them to win against the world only to lose their soul in the process?
The Leftist alliance of this world, not merely the US, will merely find another way to convert the good into the evil, even without Islam. Evil, never ends, even if you kill 99% of the human species. Battles and wars, might resolve human issues, but it has never resolved the eternal ones.
Trumbart is unleashing a good and fresh wave of shock and awe, in support of Trum, with various stories such as 5 year old rape by Muslims or migrants in Idaho.
While I agree with the premise or facts of the case (tentatively without triagulated personal source checks), I can also easily see manipulation, especially crude ones such as that. What I’ve seen makes the evils the world wants to avoid seeing, look washed out in weakness and vain glory. Thus Trumbart’s shock and awe affects me far less than it might others, on an emotional level. Emotions are weapons to be controlled, not things you allow to control human judgment.
Humans who allow emotions to control them, are a step above zombies, but not something I aspire to.
Zipper
Can’t destroy Islam. Too many people. It needs to be reformed or secularzed. See “Florence of Arabia” by Chris Buckley.
Can’t destroy Islam. Too many people. It needs to be reformed or secularzed.
Historically Islam has been checked by military superiority. In that bizarre religion it is even a doctrine, hudna, to lay low when overmatched until more favorable circumstances emerge to resume jihad.
The current jihad is based on the fabulous Middle East oil wealth made available by Western technology plus Western Civilization’s ongoing crisis of confidence.
Once that oil wealth is exhausted or Western confidence returns and we back our resolve with unquestionable military strength, Islam may go dormant on jihad for a while.
Although in the age of asymmetric warfare and more accessible WMD that argument is less certain.
Once that oil wealth is exhausted or Western confidence returns and we back our resolve with unquestionable military strength, Islam may go dormant on jihad for a while.
Islam has been waging a defensive Jihad for some time now. They have no choice in that, because the Western feminists and porno profiteers are directly attacking their ideological moral authority. Even the shaved pubes of porn actresses, attempt to replicate or replace Islam’s “houris” which are not human virgins but spiritual beings without biological processes, which includes hair.
To Islam, Might is Right. To Camelot and Arthurian based codes of chivalry in the West, Might is For the Right.
Whatever reaction rises on French soil has better manifest itself fast for geometrical progressions are hard to contain…
15-20 million Muslims in France
Cornhead: Islam reformed or secularized? It can’t happen. Surely you know that. An Islamic Martin Luther would be decapitated. See the few Muslims who have spoken out and are under 24-hour protection from their own, like Ayan Hirsi Ali.
Secularized Islam is the lazy “moderate” Muslim majority, who nevertheless want sharia, believe in jihad, and celebrated 9/11.
The Kurds are about the only Muslims worthy of respect. They’re fighting the Sunnis in an uphill battle in Turkey and Iraq.
Frog,
There was a piece yesterday on American Thinker about Islamic health practices, and in it were some links about toilet practices. Maybe we should try to establish a little cognitive dissonance in Muslims who are quite happy to use Western bathrooms. If we could get them to think that maybe Mohamed’s laws might have evolved in response to indoor plumbing, perhaps some will be willing to look for other possible areas of evolution. He sure didn’t have much to say about cell phones and laptops.
I won’t submit Says:
“Whatever reaction rises on French soil has better manifest itself fast for geometrical progressions are hard to contain:
15-20 million Muslims in France”
And we’ve been talking about eleven million illegals here for 10-15 years, too. I’m sure that’s been wildly underexaggerated as well.
I read Mark Steyn’s book “America Alone” when it was published in 2004. He was viciously attacked by both Marxists and Islamists for predicting the current demographic shifts in, and Islamification of, Europe. In fact, his book was part of the “evidence” against him when a Canadian Imam got him tried for “racism” by their so-called “Human Rights” Commission.
expat: Thanks. I’m posting the link to the American Thinker piece on Islamic inbreeding and primitive health habits, including the toilet practices.
Hair-raising. Marry your 1st cousin. Explains a lot, especially about their behavior.
http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2016/08/the_backwards_pull_of_islamic_health_practices.html
Frog,
I once went into the ladies toilet at an autobahn rest stop. As I opened the stall door,I saw (and smelled) a big pile of crap on the back of the seat. After using another stall and notifying the poor cleaning lady, I sort of figured out that the crapper was probably a woman who was used to squatter toilets. I have no idea whether she might have simply been ignorant of Western toilets or whether she was following Mohammed’s rules. Either way, the cultural divides are huge and the ignorance at such a basic level is astonishing.
I also had to use a squatter once at a small restaurant in France. It’s no fun if you have a handbag and are wearing slacks and a longish top or jacket. I guess that’s why Arab men still wear their white robes. It’s easier to pull them up.
WRT first cousin marriages, many young people are sent back to the home country to marry a cousin they have never seen. Of course, to preserve their power in the realtionship, the imported partners have to imposed the cultual and religious rules from back home. I remember a story in the NYT quite a few years back about a young Moroccan who liked a girl. He couldn’t marry her because he had been promised to a cousin he had never met. Out of frustration, he joined AQ in Afghanistan.
We do our country no favors when we allow slut walkers and gay pride exhibitionists to present our face to the world. Putin used this to rally support among Orthodox clerics at the time of the Socchi Olympics. What do you think pictures of the Folsom Street Fair would do to convince the world of our virtues? If Qutb became enraged at a church dance in Greely, I can imagine that many people are following his ideas for similar revulsions. Our radical activists are giving our enemies the rope with which to hang us.
I saw on TV last night, that Germany is now requiring refugees they accept to learn German and take vocational training. They will also not recognize the marriages of men to girls who were under 18 at the time of the marriage. I’d bet that the impetus for such changes comes from Merkel’s CDU because they have been grappling with the assimilation problem for quite a while. Fortunately, with proposals like the marriage recognition changes, they have found some areas where even the rabid feminists can’t oppose them. It is a multi-front war we are waging.
Thanks, expat, for those lucid comments.
Is it not bizarre and ironic that Merkel’s CDU is the Christian Democratic Union…in a nearly totally secular country? What happens when acronyms substitute for words, over time. It’s just the CDU.
While we’re at it, see today’s Powerline on Somalis in Minnesota: “Trump Touches Minnesota’s Untouchables.”
As Trump pointed out, they are also in Maine.
Making jihadis on our dimes.
The Powerline writer incidentally points out that being disabled moves one to the head of the U.S. legal immigration line (and thence to the permanent dole). Ask not what you can do for the country; ask what the country can do for you.
I must in all honesty say that I am beginning to understand apartheid. I don’t want any part of these people. I guess that’s Trumpian!