Further reflections on the Trump phenomenon
Donald Trump’s popularity has been the talk of the political world.
To me it reflects two things more than anything else. The first is that politics has become dominated by the idea of celebrity. The second is that many people are very very angry at the political establishment and its failure to reflect and act on the will of the people. Although Trump’s popularity mainly reflects the strength of that anger on the right, the anger is also felt on the left and in the middle as well.
Trump combines both traits I just mentioned: celebrity and a channeling of the anger. That makes him a sort of perfect political storm.
I don’t trust Trump*. I believe he’s another narcissist who doesn’t necessarily say what he means and/or mean what he says. Even though he’s not a career politician, I still don’t trust him. The only thing that might give him more trustworthiness than the average politician is that he’s not beholden to anyone for money at this point. But his narcissism and his showboat tendencies could very much get in the way.
Beyond any issues of trust, though, and even if he is extremely sincere and means what he says, as an outsider he has no history of any ability to get people in government to do what he says. It’s all very well and good to say “When I’m president I will get it done”—but how? I don’t even see a glimmer of a plan in his rhetoric.
This campaign has more conservative talent than in any past year I can think of. Walker, for example, has shown a remarkable ability as a conservative to get things done in a blue state, and he doesn’t appear to be a narcissist. He’s not catching on as much because people are mad at politicians in general, and because he’s not a TV personality like Trump, and because he doesn’t speak with his bluster. Carly Fiorina is an outsider like Trump and she knows business, and she is actually saying things that are very much like what Trump is saying, and she’s saying them with a quiet authority. And Ted Cruz is a true conservative who is a brilliant man and a good speaker.
But none of these qualities cut it very well with the angriest and most frustrated portion of the electorate. They like and want what Trump is selling.
For years I’ve been reading posters who feel this anger, on this blog and others. To a certain extent I share it. I just don’t have the same reaction to the anger that I feel. I think the surge for Trump is an emotional, “let’s stick it to the man” urge, something like the urge the left felt in the 60s or like the Perot phenomenon in the 90s only more so. I don’t think it will lead to anything good. If Trump is nominated I don’t think he would be elected. If elected I don’t think he’d be a good president (although believe me, if he is nominated or elected I sincerely hope I’m underestimating him and I’d be happy to say I was wrong).
I think those who support Trump are shooting from the hip and feel a certain emotional satisfaction, but are throwing away one of their best chances since Ronald Reagan to elect an actual conservative as president. Maybe they don’t care. Maybe they really do want to “Let it burn.”
As for the debate last night, I think Trump did more poorly than I expected. His furrowed brow and pursed lips could not disguise the fact that he seems to be a murky thinker, full of bluster and sound bites and “I can do it” but not much else except to act as a conduit for discussion of the politically incorrect, which I recognize as a plus. But I want much more than that from a candidate and from a president.
[* NOTE: This is one of several reasons I don’t trust Trump. I’ve noticed, too, that quite a few of his supporters are willing to forgive or ignore anything he’s done, because they like the way he sticks it to the establishment.
60s stuff, as I said.]
[ADDENDUM: An example of Trump’s thin skin, here. Trump supporters will no doubt love it.]
I have a gut-level distrust of Trump and hope that he contributes what he has to contribute and fades out without damaging the brand. I won’t understate what he has brought to the show – stark proof that the electorate doesn’t want more mealy-mouthed left-accommodating politicians (like say, Jeb Bush). They are angry and want someone who isn’t afraid to say what’s wrong, and they’re tired of beating around the PC bush. They’re cheering on someone who steps up with fire and bombast and calls it as it is.
My problem is this: Trump at best is an egotistical windbag with no idea of how to make government work (aside from paying people). His only hope if elected is to surround himself with knowledgeable people and actually listen to them. Chances are, he would be a mirror image of Obama – a terrible president, albeit one holding opinions we like better. At worst, I fear Trump is basically a saboteur. I would like to believe unknowingly so, but at this point, I believe that the Democrat machine is absolutely capable of paying for a Trump to do what Trump is doing so that one of two things happen:
1) He wears out his welcome and ruins everything he is associated with so that the far left can do what it does best:
A) Trump supports (position)
B) Trump … (evil thing here)
C) Therefore, all people who support (position) are (evil thing here)
or
2) Trump runs as an independent and splits the right-of-center vote so even a weakened Hillary can get elected.
The latter option leaves us where we have been for years – tearing each other apart over whether to vote for the electable less-than-perfect candidate or waste votes elsewhere for political purity, allowing the left to actually continue to win and drag the country into the third world.
I agree whole heartedly Neo. I would add that his serial gaming of the bankruptcy laws reveals how he meets his commitments.
From his mugging while other candidates were speaking, to his post debate tweets and comments, he came off as a very small man with a very big ego. About as Presidential as my daughter’s goats. (They are also entertaining up to a point.)
Reading the post-debate discussions, however, is scary. A lot of people seem to be “knee jerk” angry and gravitating to the loudest voice without much thought.
I doubt that he could get the nomination for dog catcher in a serious party. On the other hand he may have enough encouragement to take his monumental ego into the race as a third party–call it “Trumplican” or “Trumpocrat”; either works–and hand the election to the Democrats.
Oldflyer:
My assessment of the situation is that the vast majority of the people who would vote for Trump as third party candidate are already so disaffected from the political process and the GOP and everything it touches that they were going to sit this one out in 2016 or write in a third-party candidate anyway.
That’s my suspicion, anyway. So Trump as third party candidate may not make that much of a difference.
However, their failure to vote for the nominee may make a difference. I’ve been talking about this for many years, certainly a lot during the 2012 campaign.
“celebrity and a channeling of the anger.”
Both are sort of emotional issues; and, yep, politics has always been about “emotion” to a certain extent.
But, somehow or other I thought there were enough folks who were able to rise above their emotions and think of who would be best – using their rational mind to look at a candidate’s track record, thinking, not feeling, of how that individual might be able to best handle whatever issues arose.
Many on the left said that the election of Reagan was nothing more than the public voting for a former movie star; but, I disagreed with that assessment. Reagan had ideals and always believed in them; even when they weren’t popular. Sure, it helped a lot that he knew how to behave in front of a camera; but, it was his ideals that got him elected.
But, the election (and even worse the re-election) of Obama have proven me wrong in thinking that there were enough rational voters. Politics has seem to become nothing but emotions. Who do you feel best about; not who do you think would be the best candidate.
And, in that regard, I agree Trump seems to be in tune with that – feeding off the emotions that so many feel.
I do agree that the illegal alien issue (I refuse to say undocumented or immigrant in this regards) has been ignored by both parties for too long. And people are angry about it. And Trump is feeding on that.
But, we, this country I mean, need someone who isn’t a bigger narcissist than Obama (as if that is possible).
We need someone who knows how to negotiate with congress and foreign leaders; not just tell them to “get it done.” That “get it done” attitude might work in the for-profit word in which if subordinates don’t get it done they can be fired. But, congress and the judiciary are NOT subordinate to the White House. Trump cannot just say to Congress “you’re fired.” Obama might think he can – and it might seem like he can get away with it; but, a white Republican President never would.
So, I am glad that this “debate” happened early – let’s hope Trump drops out before he does too much damage to the Republican party, the process, and the voters get turned off by it all.
Agree with everyone above. I don’t trust him one bit either on a personal or policy basis. Complete blowhard and erratic.
But don’t fault him for filing BK. Plenty of airlines and now coal companies have filed. Lots of farmers and ranchers in NE in the 80s did too. I don’t know his details. But he has been all over the map on policy.
I don’t for one second think he can get a single Dem Congressman to work with him.
Carly taps into that same anger but in a smarter way. Her business experience in public companies is entirely different than Trump’s.
I wish he would go away but I don’t see that anytime soon. I also don’t see him doing well in Iowa. Walker and Carly will shine.
“none of these qualities cut it very well with the angriest and most frustrated portion of the electorate. They like and want what Trump is selling.”
Donald Trump gets traction for a reason. He has come nearer than anyone in stating the obvious, the unexpurgated truth. But even he only skims the surface for he is not a serious person and there is not even a veneer on the coarse compressed sawdust. The truth ought have for its champion more than a self-inflated ego and Trump is no more substantial than his ridiculous hair.
“throwing away one of their best chances since Ronald Reagan to elect an actual conservative as president. Maybe they don’t care. Maybe they really do want to “Let it burn.”
It’s already pretty much ashes. Does anyone believe in phoenixes?
“I’ve noticed, too, that quite a few of his supporters are willing to forgive or ignore anything he’s done, because they like the way he sticks it to the establishment.”
As to Fiorina, her fans seem also prepared to ignore her failings. If in the GOP dog and pony show, you are the only one who appears to be able walk and chew gum at the same time, your light may seem brighter than it is. If in the interview portion of the pageant you can utter sentences that originated in your mind by your own thought processes while everyone else regurgitates political bromides and platitudes, you may seem more intelligent than you are.
She is clearly an adept. It is in her wheelhouse to jab and counter punch. But has she roundhouse and the knockout in her? And can she, will she, take the blows. I mean by that, will she state the unexpurgated truth of the matter, ala Trump and not crumble in a heap, as Trump has not?
“One should either write ruthlessly what one believes to be the truth, or else shut up.”
– Arthur Koestler
That goes triple for politicians, most especially those who purport to be conservative. Even more especially in bedeviled times such as these.
OTOH,
“As long as they do not take him seriously, the man who says the truth can live for a while in a democracy. Then, the hemlock.”
– Don Colacho (Nicolé¡s Gé³mez Dé¡vila)
Conservatives, especially, seem to have a fear of being made to drink it.
Elijahs and Cassandras are unlikely to win an election, especially when the electorate would rather the music continue and the dance not stop. At this juncture, which is more important for the nation? – that there be a conservative Elijah or Cassandra or a conservative president who dances because… music*.
I will vote next when such a candidate appears, when he/she appears not to be dancing to the music, until then I will continue to have grave doubts. I am not without hope, only without expectations.
* When the music stops, in terms of liquidity, things will be complicated. But as long as the music is playing, you’ve got to get up and dance. We’re still dancing.
– Chuck Prince, (former CEO of Citigroup – retirement payout: $40 million), – from FT interview
…and everyone has a band, and the bands play on, and the music never stops, and neither does the dancing. If only it were around the maypole and not around the truth.
“Politics has seem to become nothing but emotions.”
Yes and most want someone that will HIT BACK HARD!
The candidate that does that and doesn’t come across as smug a**hole, has a handle on the issues should win the nomination … time will tell.
charles:
I agree that rationality is not Trump’s appeal, and that too many voters are irrational. In particular, many of his supporters are part of the “let it burn” crowd. They feel a destructive rage at the entire political enterprise that hasn’t gone the way they’ve wanted for a long time. So burn the whole thing down, and the country too, and maybe something better will rise from the ashes.
Trump is not Hitler and his supporters are not Nazis, of course. But there is an analogy in the emotional motivation of his supporters, which I discussed here (in a somewhat different context) and repeat now in this quote from the book They Thought They Were Free:
I have thought Trump is a saboteur for a while now. His past contributions to democrat candidates, and his past statements on abortion and amnesty, make it impossible for me to believe he is sincere about being a republican, and certainly not a conservative. He is more of a wolf inside a sheep skin than anything remotely related to a conservative.
As noted he is tapping into the frustration and anger of the conservative base, and neo is right about celebrity staus in politics. This came on the national scene with the clintons and then bho. This cult of personality is a thing of the left, not the right. Trump is just another narcissist enjoying his time in the spotlight.
I too distrust Trump and view him as a blowhard. I strongly suspect he’s a closet liberal, though I think his view of illegal immigration is sincere.
Given the GOP leadership’s contempt and disregard for conservative principles, I judge it unlikely that a torn apart Republican party in 2016 is avoidable.
I favor Walker as the most electable, despite my doubts as to the depth of his commitment to conservatism. I fear that if he is elected, he’ll be another “read my lips” clone of Bush senior. I’m doubtful that he’ll fight hard to lead the GOP into an aggressive campaign against the left. But by any measure, Walker would be far better than Hillary.
The trump phenomenon reminds me of Star Wars
unless your old enough to have experienced it, you probably wont get that reference.
but star wars showed how completely out of touch the press and elite were in terms of understanding the people… almost all reviewers panned star wars as bad… and maybe if you like child rape and such social stuff as entertainment, you might agree (the rape thing is related to a movie that they panned as great that had a graphic scene of that, which the average people didnt see).
anyway… star wars sucked… then the theaters were wall to wall with people, lines outside all around, the press could not admit it was wrong, so it did all the similar things to now.
its so bad the best the wall street journal could say is that people on fiorinas facebook can spell better than trumps… you know, the critical information that their readers were waiting all night to read.
then there are the authors who deemd the applause for trump was really for megan…
and on and on it goes.. and often you think that the author leftist writing the piece is either delusional or didnt actually bother to watch as they were going to lie and spin anyway… so why watch?
Star wars franchise is worth over 30 billion a year and growing, and thats what the left deemed would be a failure….
the soviet union isnt worth much, and that is what the left deemed a success.
why do people even listen to them at all?
Trump is not manipulating the disaffected, they are manipulating him. He wants the stage and says what he needs to get there. This makes him unreliable. I think his third-party danger is not that he will take so many Republicans, as that he will get Independents.
There is this mythology among conservatives that the best strategy is to find someone who really lets ’em have it, and millions will flock to his/her banner. As if that hasn’t been tried every election cycle. It works in some times and places better than others. But the satisfying glow that conservatives get hearing candidates be blunt does not imply that others will be persuaded by it. Sometimes. Not always.
Parker at 3:06PM:
I agree. In the back of my mind I keep wondering whether Trump is some kind of mole or ‘plant’ put there ( or at least talked into running) by his friends the Clintons in oder to divide the GOP voters é la Perot.
Trump at best is an egotistical windbag with no idea of how to make government work (aside from paying people). His only hope if elected is to surround himself with knowledgeable people and actually listen to them.
you obviously dont know trump the way the people do… OBVIOUSLY… trump has trumped politicians for ages, not to mention doing so by out performing them over and over… from the rink in ny, to the golf course he did in the bronx, to his hotels, to many other things.
its just that your not used to politicians being anyting other than sniviling wishy washy stuff, and trump comes off like an old time politician with fire and passion and so on…
who do you think “the buck stops here” would more comfortably be in front of and fit the personality of? trump, obama, hillary?
Trump is the only one that actually admits things that are negative, and then says, so what… the others dont admit whats negative, say so what, and you feel helpess having to accept that lie and the so what.
he gets things done… and most of what you know of him and his stuff is portrayed by who?
press that likes successful independent capitalists who are not ashamed of their work?
so your images of him are mostly formed by the press who says he is a clown, a blow hard and so on. they pick what images you see, what phrases they will focus on…
and yet… we have not the common sense from minute to minute to admit that, and add that to the assesment we FEEL about people
yeah, you felt great about obama, or at least not that bad, and that was the press as well… so as good as obama seemed is as bad as they can make trump out to be…
think any of the others republicans will fight and do whats right without having to care as to their future prospects after the job?
thats why everyone, including dirty republicans are crapping in their pants over a trump win. he cant be bought, he will open his mouth and let the bad out tht others do, he will hold people accountable (even if its just more fun than not) and beholden to no one… what are they going to do? assasinate him or call him bad names? no on the first front, yes already on the second…
he is free to act and that scares the be jesus out of them…
independent sucessful moral and so on
if you dont think that is true, then what amoral thing has he ever done that the press has revealed? he called rosy fat, obnoxious etc?
who did he cheat? what criminal suit like hillary and the fbi did he have? did he ever have sorded relations and cheat on his wife? no… have sex with other men and put his lover prostitute up in congress like barney?
clean scares them all as clean once in place is untouchable, has no influence, needs nothing, and can do what they want to clean house.
I would add that his serial gaming of the bankruptcy laws reveals how he meets his commitments.
yeah.. cause when your in that position, you just lay down and dont fgight it… you just give up, right commenter? so you dont take your deductions, you dont require the police to have a warrant and you dont fight when the law says you can.
think of what your saying… how could he, hated by the politicians game anything which the law did not allow him to? and why blame him for how the law is constructed, why not blame the dems who have had the lions share of power for the past 50 years?
oh… cause you get your info from the press, who thinks that following the lwa when it doesnt get ya when they want ya is somehow cheating.
ever think that he gets more scrutiny as he is not lied by either side cause he doesnt side with either?
its a ridiculous position and one that is defined by the left press… or do you know him personally, studied his stuff personally, and had personal work with him and reviewed things?
so how can you complain about a liberal press that favors things and as i said above, in the next breath believe them on such crap when you want to agree with the crap?
how can a lying press tell the truth about a successful capitalist in a period when they have targets on them unless they are in the soup for the left like buffet, gates, soros, steyer and more.
do you think the good word on buffet by the same press is more truthful than what they say about trump?
go read if you saw the debate and see what they are twisting and your using for knowlege.
I have come to the conclusion that the not left can only win if the person is a saint… recomended by god only if he opens the clouds and that any impure anything, negates that.
yeah… now that everyone is dirty, lets just elect hillary and get it over with…
If I Wanted to Destroy America, This Is How I’d Do It [artcle exerpts]
The first thing I would do, if I wanted to destroy America, would be to subvert and co-opt both political parties. In a system such as ours was set up to be, it’s only natural that there will be two major parties forming broad coalitions of voter interest groups, and that minor parties would find it extremely difficult to compete. So the best way to begin to lay my plans is to get the leadership of both parties into my corner. Get control of both of them. Maybe I could do it through bribery, of either the illegal, or even better, the “legal” sort. Perhaps for some it might take a little blackmail–some pictures of a politician or two in bed with a dead girl or a live boy. By hook or by crook, I’d get both these parties singing the same tune–my tune. Sure, I might allow them to give the superficial appearance of differences on some issues, mainly to keep their respective bases happy so that my “kept men” get re-elected more easily. However, when it comes down to substantive actions on any important issues, let’s say things like dealing with illegal immigration or defunding Planned Parenthood or repealing ObamaCare, the leaders in both parties will be marching in lockstep.
-=-=-=-=-=-
To make it even easier to get control of the narrative, I’d also co-opt the news media. I’d actively work to centralize ownership of the various media outlets into as few hands as possible. Ideally, I’d be able to get something like 90% or so of all television, radio, print media, and online news in the hands of a half dozen or so corporations, each one headed by pliable northeastern or West Coast liberals who would be on board with my plan. Now, to throw the rubes off the scent, I’d create at least one news outlet that would appear to be different from the others. I’d get the liberals to hate it, and get the conservatives to hate all the others. But again, when push comes to shove and any policy that affects my plan was up for discussion, I’d make sure this “odd man out” news source still toed my line. I’d make sure that the “Overton Window” remains as closed as possible.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Controlling their minds from the very start so that they’re not even able to comprehend anything that goes against my plan. For example, the ideal situation would be one in which a person, upon hearing a cogent, scientific argument against global warming, would either stare blankly and uncomprehendingly at the hatethinker, or else would become so frothingly enraged at this obvious hate speech that they would mentally block out anything and everything that person had to say ever again. Either way, I and my plan win.
How to do this? Well, I’d get control of the publik skoolz. I’d introduce so much superfluous nonsense into the curriculum that all the actual “learning” gets drowned out. I’d engineer a curriculum specifically designed to undercut all the badthink that these kids would get from their parents at home. I’d definitely keep the kids from actually acquiring any skills at critical reasoning.
-=-=-=-=-=-
Another thing I’d do is use my power over the media to help steer the culture into a godless and immoral direction. I’d use the TV programs, the music, the comedy shows, even the cartoons in the local newspapers, to saturate consumers with a steady drumbeat of false premises designed to undercut the traditional morals and beliefs of the country. I’d seek to get people thinking only in the here-and-now, never thinking beyond the instant gratification they hope to have within the next two hours. This way, I could eliminate competition to my way of thinking. I could replace traditional sources of authority with my own sources of authority, all the while hoodwinking the people into thinking that they were “questioning authority” and “living their own lives.” I’d fool them into replacing God with me–with my plan and my purposes for their miserable, puny lives.
the rest is for your curiousity…
the incurious can ignore it…
-=-=-=-=-=-
Neo,
I agree with you. Trump is untrustworthy and a horrible candidate. The only reason that he has any GOP backing in because they are afraid he will run as a 3rd party and they will lose control.
Make no mistake. His popularity is the GOP establishments fault. They have shown the last few years that what they want is no different than what the Dems want. Hence their failure to actually win on a single issue the last 7 year is amazing in its perfidy. They are willing to talk a good game. But they have no interest in anything the base wants because it lessens their potential power.
Government expansion, unchecked bureaucracy. It greatly increases their power even in the minority. Than a smaller government does with them in the majority. That is why so many on the right that are deemed “conservatives” are willing to watch the whole rancid mess fall.
Both sides have shown us that by following what are now the rules. It is impossible to reverse. If you manage to pass a law that shrinks government through both legislative bodies and the executive. Something highly improbable these days. You still have to pass the dozens of inevitable lawsuits that follow. That are created to demoralize and delay those changes until the opponents simply give up.
Pass through that gauntlet and you still have to get through the bureaucracy. Which is against anything limiting their power. And has now grown to the point that they are willing to simply ignore the laws. And use the unaccountability of their purposely byzantine nature to prevent accountability. The President can now choose which laws are to be followed and uses the bureaucracy as cover so he isnt perceived as breaking the law himself.
All are delaying tactics to get what they want, system be damned. And then run out thee clock until they eventually are able to pardon themselves on the way out the door. Having created an impossible situation for anyone planning on limiting power and following the rules in the next administraton
Mythx,
That is an excellent summation of what plagues America.
Just one point, Cornhead. Sure, many companies and entities have declared bankruptcy. I was in the airline industry and it seemed to be a virus–or plague.
As we learned to our dismay; every time a corporation is awarded bankruptcy protection, a lot of little people get hurt. Small companies are stiffed. Pension plans are voided and so forth.
So, four times by one “wheeler dealer”? He shrugs and says only other “sharpsters” felt the pain. Not true. Then he tells us to trust him to stand by his commitments if we elect him President.
Nope.
Short version of mythx: “Both political parties exist to SERVE THEMSELVES, and all they need the voters for is their votes — every 4 years. After the elections, “Shut up please, we’re focusing on ourselves and our futures here. If you’re very-very good, and very-very patient, MAYBE we’ll deal with The Structural Problems You Proles Face — NEXT election. But for now, STFU and STFD.”
I don’t like or trust Trump either. Nothing he says seems backed up by thoughful studying of the problems he talks about. Most of all, I can’t imagine him in meetings with foreign leaders or trying to work with them to solve commmon problems. I doubt that many would be impressed by his phony bravado. Trump has no idea how sensitive you have to be in foreign affairs.
The GOP is merely trapped by the failure of the Right.
Trump’s popularity is an indictment of the Right’s long self-defeating, socially irresponsible refusal to compete fully in the activist game, the only social cultural/political game there is, thus ceding the zeitgeist to the Left.
Trump’s appeal plugs into the populist desire for social changes greater than electoral politics that necessarily precede electoral politics. As such, Trump’s message is rending the GOP because it’s out of order in the presidential election. To be effective, the themes are properly applied by Right activists to reform the zeitgeist, then applied in turn by GOP officials. Once society is adjusted by progressive Right activists, the GOP can do its part in the same way that the Dems perform their assigned role in the social cultural/political ecosystem engineered by pragmatic, competitive Left activists.
Once society is adjusted by progressive Right activists, the GOP can do its part in the same way that the Dems perform their assigned role in the social cultural/political ecosystem engineered by pragmatic, competitive Left activists.
Sounds like Trotskyites versus Leninists. Just the kind of thing a conservative pines for. /sarc
I used to be disgusted. Now I’m just amused.
Neo:
I remember Mayer’s book, “They Thought They Were Free.”
It may be the source of insights, but it is basically anecdotal. Only ten (10) Germans were interviewed for his book. One generalizes to millions of Germans at some serious hazard of error. Postwar Germans were predictably very hesitant to talk about their pre-war attitudes, especially after the truth about the concentration camps was known throughout the world. Would you think their anti-Semitism would be freely admitted to an American who was going to write a book?
As to my view of Trump, he has served importantly to show the Romneyesque Republican candidates that pointed, slashing verbal attacks are OK. He has generated a great deal of attention to the other candidates as well, even if they are on stage in his penumbra. LIVs watched last night! Even Walker is beginning to get it.
Trump is a blowhard like Christie. Neither will make it. And The Donald is not dumb. He is not going to blow lots of megabucks to lose anything, since there is no bankruptcy court to dish out “haircuts” to campaign creditors.
Neo, I agree
Ann:
Until conservatives start understanding it and using some of it, they will keep on losing and complaining that the world just doesn’t understand the wonderfulness of their cause.
Frog,
Naturally, Germans who supported Hitler did so for a number of disparate reasons. But I very much doubt that the phenomenon being described there only applied to a tiny percentage of them. The question is not how many people felt that way, but that a certain not insignificant number did, and a certain not insignificant number of Trump supporters feel that way now.
“Throw the bums out” is an understandable but potentially dangerous credo if people who espouse it neither know nor care exactly what is replacing it. Not all Trump supporters are like that, either, but from my reading of comments on blogs I can say that I think a very large percentage are, and they are the “let it burn” people and many are very upfront about the fact that they support Trump in order to stick it to the hated GOP and don’t give a f*** if Hillary or Sanders win.
That said, Trump certainly livened up the room and drew milions of spectators who otherwise wouldn’t be watching last night.
I happen to agree with Ann. Be true to yourself and perhaps others will come along. The so called activist game works on sheep (the cult of the zombie left) but most of the right do not need a weatherman to know a storm front is knocking on our front door.
Brilliant thoughts, neo, and wonderful, thoughtful thread in response.
We have rational, trustworthy alternatives to Trump in Cruz and Fiorina. They both are doing an adult, appealing, persuasive version of Trump.
Cruz and Fiorina are meant for each other.
They could both benefit if they were to make a public alliance and plan strategy together.
They should talk about what “our” administration would do. Keep the campaigns independent, but explicitly allied.
They should use money from the Cruz campaign now to make regular joint appearances to discuss their mutual goals for America, and to discuss what differences they might have.
They need to get a David Mamet level artist to create a human, down to Earth, speak the truth, recurring vehicle, a venue which permits them to be pointed, funny and human.
I believe that Cruz and Fiorina, together with the right “producer,” are entirely capable of becoming their own viral celebrities.
The way the left has gained the upper hand in our culture and politics has been through lies, powerful lies. The only way to beat lies is with other, even more powerful lies, or with the truth. I don’t think a lot of conservatives want to join the lying game, but would opt for truth-telling. But the truth must be presented clearly, concisely, and without hesitation — that’s what been missing on the conservative side.
Carly Fiorina absolutely DISSECTS Chris Matthews and leaves him speechless
http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2015/08/carly-fiorina-absolutely-dissects-chris.html
Neo:
The German you quote from Mayer is self-justifying. He voted for Adolf and passes the buck to “we all did it.” Because politicians stink. The notion that Adolf was the anti-politician is nuts.
But it was not that so many Germans supported Hitler. Nazis got a plurality of the 1933 vote, about 30-35%, IIRC. So roughly 70% did not.
Yes, the voters were split into many groups- Communists and Social Democrats among them. One of those two took 2nd place. The German Republic (“Weimar”) from 1918 to 1933 had been pretty chaotic, it is true. But the German democratic spirit, only 15 years old, was too young to be a tradition.
The German 70% let it happen. Hindenburg the Senile, the political Father of all Germany, offered Adolf the Chancellor job, and then went and died. No group stood up after that.
Adolf did what Barack has done- started off carefully and then accelerated when he encountered no major opposition.
The US is not in a similar position yet, but it is getting closer, and the Dems are trying to bring it on. They seek chaos. Can there be serious doubt about the American Left’s totalitarian desire?
I’m enjoying the way Trump is stirring up the race. He has made illegal immigration a major issue and he deserves kudos for that.
He was brutally honest on his political donations. The system stinks but I’ll exploit it to my advantage.
He was also brutally honest on the importance of leverage in negotiations. Imagine if he was negotiating with Iran.
He’s not my favorite candidate but he beats lots of them. Personally, I prefer Fiorina and Cruz.
Well, damn. I just got knocked out of a supreme rant. Started out inspired by just reading Ian Kershaw’s biography of Hitler. My all-time internet rant. Oh well.
Frog:
I’m well aware that only a third of Germans supported Hitler; I’ve written at length on that very subject. But a third is a LOT—and of course that third, along with the machinations of von Hindenburg and von Papen, was enough to bring Hitler to power.
You write:
Actually, the quote occurs on p. 101 of the paperback edition of 1971, which is the one I own. It is NOT a quote from a particular German; these are Mayer’s words of summary of the group as a whole. As for whether the particular Germans being described in that quote had been self-serving in talking to Mayer, and therefore the description was wrong—well, you could say that about anything based on what Germans said happened in their country during the Nazi years. However, the words are Mayers’, and he said they described the group and that the group was pretty representative of the whole. By the way, he lived in the town for a year and got to know many more than the ten individuals he featured in the book, and he chose the ten as being representative of the group and its different types.
An establishment republican will have “immigration reform” as his first priority. At least with a democratic president the GOP congress might resist. Not so with a republican president.
Randy:
Trump is hardly the only non-estabishment Republican in the race.
I am amazed at the e-mails I have received from old Navy buddies who are totally on board with Trump. And how many of them sided with Trump in the McCain dust up. Their anger at the establishment is much greater than mine. It is a phenomenal thing to me. The emotions are very high. Higher than when the TEA Party began.
If the Republican establishment doesn’t understand this and start listening, there will be a whole lot of people voting third party or staying home. Judging by these men’s anger, I don’t think this is going to blow over quickly.
What makes the American system difficult and treacherous is that unlike a parliamentary system – wherein, coalitions are formed AFTER the election – our system require successful coalition building BEFORE them.
While I grant Neo all of her well-and-sound points at the top, I am – nonetheless – the Tea Party intellectual who has agitated many, while having sat out and not voted since 2008. In other words, the type of sod you call out or dismiss in a later comment.
It’s not an abandonment because of anger, seeking a vicarious stalking horse. It’s because sheer futility.
During a book interview today (on Hugh Hewitt), Mark Levin argues that calling this sort out, like angry while Christian male blue collar…etc, ect, gratifies the ruling class establishmentarians as the sort they can casually dismiss. No need to think, understand them or even hear their perceptions.
Instead, Levin corrects, they are disappointed and frustrated. They were once called “the silent majority,” (even if they are no longer a majority, these days).
It is those disappointments at being disappointed and frustrated by THEIR natural allies – one thinks of the perpetual Senator Thad Cockran betrayal race in Mississippi, where the RNC sought to get out black vote against the Tea Party candidate by lying to them, portraying him as racist.
I know I won’t forgive; and I won’t forget. And I won’t countenance voting for a RINO (it wouldn’t matter in my Dem (ie, urban) neighborhood in a purple state that leans Democrat, anyway.
Now I read that Eric Erickson has disinvited Trump over his lambasting insults at Megyn Kelly at some Redstate confab in Atlanta – and invited her instead. This, only hour after I learned that FNCs Kelly LIED to smear Trump in last night’s debate!
In the BIG QUESTION – or one of the first Big Ones aimed at him: Trump had told one contestant on “Celebrity Apprentice” that it would be a pretty picture to “see her on her knees.” Kelly questioned his temperament to be president for this.
Trump voiced his disbelief.
During Mark Levin’s Friday show (Hour 1, 35 to 40m, inclusive of commercial breaks, for podcast listeners), I heard clips from the “Celebrity Apprentice” and the alleged “victim” that conclusively prove his innocence. Trump IS owed an apology!
To be concrete: Levin aired the clip from the show from the 6th season, and then had a clip from the female contestant who (apparently asked about Kelly’s claim) – first, could not recall it, and then said Trump was always gracious, and finally conjectured that he was being a fun showman in keeping with the TV show’s objectives.
The first clip showed that the groveling reference was merely to contestant competing to be the best apprentice, ie, there was nothing sexual even off-color innuendo in it.
So, granted all you say, Neo – Trump is now my man, my president!
I can suffer fools gladly, strategically, but I can’t stand that the “Right” is now lying at each other to bring them to heel.
The poisonous Left cultural Marxist lies by the Obamunist loving sorts have made the Pubbies shell-shocked and impotent, teaches Rush, to explain their fecklessness and betrayals.
Are now too infected with deceit and betrayal to win against the Long March and its agents to win?
Now – it seems – we cannot even rely on each other to build a workable, winning coalition, if only the Lie and the Big Lie “works” anymore.
We cannot separate the virtuous truth-tellers from despicable liars, nor the trustworthy from the untrustworthy.
Googling up image on “Trump President,” I’m surprised to see more than a few “Trump for President, 2012” images.
This led me to a post-2012 election newstory I have not seen before, HEADLINE: “Trump call for ‘Revolution’ after Obama Win.”
” ‘[Obama] lost the popular vote by a lot and won the election. We should have a revolution in this country!’ Trump tweeted.
“He also encouraged his followers to ‘march on Washington and stop this travesty,’ because that was the only way they could ‘fight like hell and stop this great and disgusting injustice.’ ”
DATELINE, November 7th, 2012.
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Donald-Trump-Calls-for-Revolution-After-Obama-Win-304973.shtml
I think we have underestimated his resolve and commitment here.
I am a lifelong Republican and more importantly, conservative.
But now I conclude that, judging by the unwillingness of the GOPe to take on Obama and the leftist destroyers of our country and culture, the me-too leftist-light of the Bush administrations, and the judges appointed by them, the GOPe is now a wholly co-opted arm of the left and would-be elite. It is simply a stalking horse for them.
So the GOPe must die since it is only a negative force at present, pacifying and diverting the remains of conservative America that hope against evidence that the party will someday come to their aid. If it dies, perhaps no good comes of it. But no further harm (other than perhaps a modest acceleration of our destruction) will develop since it accomplishes nothing useful now.
Like the Whigs before them, the Republicans’ day is over. I now support Trump in the hopes that he helps destroy the GOPe, and have only a weak hope that a true conservative alternative replaces the party I have voted for for about 45 years.
Thank you, Artfldger, for your explanation of Trump support.
As one of the few readers of this blog who is a Trump supporter, I will try to explain what we see in him in a succinct way.
1. We think the game is rigged. We don’t think anybody but Jeb Bush will be allowed by the GOPe to win the nomination, and we don’t think Jeb is electable in the general. You may consider this conspiracy thinking, but analyzing the last few primary seasons and the dirty tricks that went on, combined with the do-nothing congress and Jeb inexplicably raising so much money and many other factors have led us to that conclusion. Jeb is simply a bridge too far, and talk of the virtues of any other candidate seems pointless when they will be unable to win the Florida primary and will be toast.
2. All the other candidates, in addition to having severe difficulties making it through the primaries to win the nom, seem bought to one degree or another. Why is no one else talking about illegal immigration? It seems like a no-brainier, but basically no other candidate has passion for this issue other than mealy mouth platitudes filled with all sorts of qualifiers that they then immediately go back on behind the scenes. Nobody seems trustworthy right now. That includes Cruz, Walker, Fiorina, Perry, everybody.
3. Trump, for all his faults, seems to love this country. After what we currently have in the White House, that qualification alone is priceless.
4. Trump is competent and tough. We don’t know how he will handle every situation, but we do believe that he won’t put up with a lot of ineptitude. The ice- skating rink is a good example, as well as the fact that he runs a multi- billion dollar business. That experience alone makes him more qualified than any of the others. He has had to work with government from the other side and knows how to get things done. He will not let our enemies walk all over us and knows how to negotiate.
5. We believe Trump is electable. We don’t believe Jeb is electable, and we don’t believe the people funding his campaign even care if he’s elected. They just want the status quo. The other candidates all have electability problems as well. We believe Trump can bring in disaffected Republicans and Democrats as well as the independent vote. It might not be reflected in the polls yet, but we believe his toughness and celebrity will be a powerful driving force in the election.
6. Trump fights the mainstream media and bursts the PC bubble. For this one act alone we feel incredibly indebted to him. Someone has needed to stand up to these bullies for a long time and we aren’t going to complain because the man to do it doesn’t fit our preconceived ideas.
So ther you have it, I hope this helps. I don’t believe Trump is going away anytime soon, I think we’re in a new paradigm.
Orson and OriginalFrank:
“I think we have underestimated his resolve and commitment here” (Orson) – – except Trump did nothing since he made his bold call to march on Washington to “stop the travesty”.
He talked a lot about BO’s birth status. Regardless of the merits, that topic was a futile one which only succeeded in muddling things at best. IOW, just a lot of inflammatory rhetoric with no coherent philosophy or strategic vision.
“I now support Trump in the hopes that he helps destroy the GOPe, and have only a weak hope that a true conservative alternative replaces the party I have voted for for about 45 years” (OriginalFrank) – – except Trump has given no reason for hoping he would merely destroy the GOPe or would re-make the party into a honest, conservative party.
Far more likely that he destroys the Republican Party period, giving another leftist control of the White House for eight more years, to do the Hugo Chavez thing BO has been doing.
The GOP has Cruz, Fiorina, Walker, Jindal and Carson. Logically, doesn’t it make more sense to support one of them to accomplish your goals?
My own really strong preference is Cruz/Fiorina. They give me actual hope that the GOP could turn itself into the party we all would like to see. Trump gives me no hope for anything good, period.
We have NEVER had a choice like Cruz/Fiorina, ever. I say that as a person who enrolled in the Conservative Party back in the 60’s, someone who reveres RR, and who has felt the deep frustrations over the years.
Let me repeat. We have never had a choice like Cruz/Fiorina, ever.
I have often complained that I, me, myself, never get the chance to actually vote for someone who inspires me with confidence, admiration and agreement. Now it is here.
Why, of all possible circumstances and opportunities over the last decades, would a true “conservative” NOW abandon hope when finally brilliant, principled, articulate persons who “get it” unequivocally are offering wonderful leadership??
Original Frank says:
“So the GOPe must die since it is only a negative force at present, pacifying and diverting the remains of conservative America that hope against evidence that the party will someday come to their aid. If it dies, perhaps no good comes of it. But no further harm (other than perhaps a modest acceleration of our destruction) will develop since it accomplishes nothing useful now.
Like the Whigs before them, the Republicans’ day is over. I now support Trump in the hopes that he helps destroy the GOPe, and have only a weak hope that a true conservative alternative replaces the party I have voted for for about 45 years.”
Yes.
There is also a chance that a dissolution of the GOP will cause a major realignment of the democrats as well. A large part of their coalition is on board strictly because they believe the claim that the GOP is big business over the middle class or working class. The GOP, when it gets in office, seems bent on confirming that.
“We have never had a choice like Cruz/Fiorina, ever.
I have often complained that I, me, myself, never get the chance to actually vote for someone who inspires me with confidence, admiration and agreement. Now it is here.
Why, of all possible circumstances and opportunities over the last decades, would a true “conservative” NOW abandon hope when finally brilliant, principled, articulate persons who “get it” unequivocally are offering wonderful leadership??”
I fully agree about Cruz but I’m not sure about Fiorina, but only because I haven’t looked at her much and I’m hesitant to support a person who rises through the corporate world, which is designed to weed out the kind of personality we need right now. I do intend to look more closely, however.
I will vote for whomever has the best chance to keep Jeb out of office. Period.
Tonawanda- I like Fiorina’s speeches, but she has a very cozy relationship with the establishment and has a track record of more liberal beliefs. She ran a very establishment type weak campaign here in CA where I live, plus her problems at HP would absolutely sink her in the general. I live in an area with a lot of HP workers and none have had good things to say about her.
Cruz does seem the most reliable conservative of the group, but even he has problems such as calling for massive increases in legal immigration. The biggest problem with Cruz, as I see it, is that he is unelectable. Maybe that’s harsh but I don’t see someone with only two years in the senate who is not loved by the establishment and who also has a 1950s persona with a grating speaking style winning both the primary and the general.
Tonawanda, I guess I wasn’t clear enough. I don’t mean that Trump will help rebuild the GOP, I mean that he will destroy much of the GOPe which is arraigned entirely against him. Either he gets elected and subverts them (unlikely but possible) or he runs a third party and eclipses them (and probably loses).
Either way, the GOPe is done. I more-or-less accept the evidence presented here of the GOP today as just a wing of the leftists/elitist/statist party:
http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/08/06/why-i-still-support-donald-trump-part-3-the-intellectual-argument/#more-104572
I don’t know that the Donahue and the Chamber of Commerce conclusion is valid, but the verifiable facts presented are damning. I found the GOPe unwillingness to support Cuccinelli at the final line as truly enlightening.
The other candidates are, IMO, just new flavors of GOPe. I sadly include Cruz and Fiorina in that assessment though I wish not.
The party must be destroyed, and again, I say this recognizing that there is limited possibility of an improved arrangement on the other side. But what we have now, is simply a deception.
One of the problems that I’m seeing too much of these two arguments from Trump supporters –
1.) “It’s all for Jeb anyway, so I’m going to vote for the bomb thrower instead of someone who talks up conservative principles.”
2.) ‘Even the conservatives are taking a non-conservative stance where no one can see them.”
The first one denies that you have an opportunity to influence the vote. If that’s the case, why are you even voting?
The second one displays such a high degree of cynicism that I wonder why you even bother to pay attention to what’s going on, since you don’t believe a single word that comes out of any of the candidates’ mouths. Why bother to watch the debates if you automatically assume that any conservative statements by a candidate are lies?
Unfortunately, the second point can only be confirmed or refuted by putting the individual in office. Obviously people working under that belief aren’t willing to give any of the candidates that chance.
The first point, however, should have gotten a rather big pushback following the first debate. 24 million Americans watched the debate. That’s almost one in thirteen Americans that watched Jeb Bush give a weak performance. Even the GOP establishment wiill likely have a hard time overcoming that.
Btw, although I hadn’t posted yet, I felt like Neo was speaking personally to me with this:
> I think those who support Trump are shooting from the hip and feel a certain emotional satisfaction, but are throwing away one of their best chances since Ronald Reagan to elect an actual conservative as president. Maybe they don’t care. Maybe they really do want to “Let it burn.”
My view is that it is and has been burning – a conflagration – for a long time, and the people we’ve elected – over and over again – to put it out are just accepting our money and delegated authority. Then they are joining their peers in the ‘official’ leftist party in throwing gasoline on the flames.
We must stop deceiving ourselves, and arrange for improved arrangements that don’t include those ‘firemen’.
Yes, Trump is something of a clown and entertainer, but I judge him to NOT be a ‘fireman’.
Yes, Trump is something of a clown and entertainer, but I judge him to NOT be a ‘fireman’.
Possibly not a ‘fireman’ but definitely a ‘he’ man.
Giuliani opines:
Giuliani on Trump: “We Might Have A Little Reagan Here,”
Nostalgia.
But his narcissism and his showboat tendencies could very much get in the way.
not really, its an advantage among the elite and successful… being a beta male in an alpha males position is horribly wrong… being an alpha male is what works, and women tend not to like the alpha male if he is not THEIR alpha…
otherwise what they trust is someone like obama..
not threatening, incompetent, feminine, scheming, etc.
its what women like…
and let me know how the leaders like that have done their thing compared to leaders like reagan… (he wasnt a effeminate left leaning man was he?), or carter (perfect for the ladies)…
basically, the ladies are bitching there are no more real men, and their elective choices are weak men who use the power of state to inflict upon others their ideas, not strong men that can negotiate and do real deals… those guys are scary, their effectiveness is what makes them scary – just as the effeminate emmasculated impotent makes them feel safe.
could this be why every matriarchy failed and died out and were rarely remembered but in myth? what kind of leaders would they have that would not scare them…
sheep are scared of the sheep dog like the wolf
but a wolf in sheep clothing makes you feel better till you understand the fundamental difference of the two.
Artfldgr:
You are mistaking narcissism and showboat tendencies for strength. They are not the same thing.
Contrast someone like Reagan (or even Thatcher, who wasn’t an alpha male but who was about as alpha as they come) with Trump. They were the real deal.
Trump talks big but the issue is whether has the spine to actually do anything to kill the Left.
}}} Four Trump allies and one Clinton associate familiar with the exchange said that Clinton encouraged Trump’s efforts to play a larger role in the Republican Party and offered his own views of the political landscape.
Trump offers an “Anyone but Trump” movement to match or exceed that of the “Anyone but Hillary” mark.
Of COURSE Bill and Hillary like the idea.
Polarizing the electorate. It’s the Democrats’ stock in trade.