A hero of the Nairobi mall, and some details about guns and violence
Here’s a story about the heroic actions of a guy named Abdul Haji at the Nairobi mall massacre scene. Note the photo of the two rescuers with the guns; it’s a graphic demonstration of how guns are neither good nor bad, but it’s how they’re used that counts.
I hope this guy is well-protected. Of course, his whole family was already at risk even before this (as you’ll see if you read the article).
The plight of the Nairobi mall hostages, who had trouble telling perpetrator from rescuer for a while, also highlights the dilemma of knowing who to trust in these situations.
But despite the laudable and exceedingly courageous heroics of this man and so many others, why was the official response to the standoff so relatively ineffective for so long? The torture reports make me think that getting the jump on a situation such as this is absolutely of the essence, rather than merely trying to prevent the killing of hostages and stalling for time. With such vicious and barbaric perpetrators, the killing they do is only the final part of it.
Here’s an interesting comment to the PJ article:
You’ll have to forgive me if I’m not joining in the heartwarming hosannas here. I just read in the UK Guardian about the unspeakable atrocities inflicted on the hostages (that we won’t be reading about in the MSM) and I am not in the mood for string-plucking human interest stories.
I want to keep it civil so I’ll choose my words carefully: A single competent rifle platoon, landed on the roof, should have been able to clean that place out in two hours. Instead, hundreds of Kenyan soldiers, police and various “security” detachments, running around like headless chickens and striking dramatic poses for the photogs, managed to keep this pooch-screw going for FOUR doggone days…in a “mall” that looks about the size of a single downtown department store in Yanqui-land.
As the place was managed by an Israeli company I’m not surprised it was floated to send in the Israeli commandos to do the job…but I don’t have to be told to guess that little Kenyatta Jr. allowed himself to be shouted down by the Arab League.
This was an even worse show than the Mumbai follies. You may color me disgusted. However, given the quality of the performance art put on in the streets of Boston recently, our over-equipped, over-weight Homeland Security forces just may come close when it happens in the Mall of the Americas.
We don’t know the details, of course, so we don’t know whether this commenter is being unfair or not. But I wonder if we’ll ever know them. And meanwhile our MSM is doing its bit to not report on the worst parts. They’re “protecting” us—from the reality of what terrorists are willing and eager to do. The MSM’s motive? Promoting the favored liberal narrative, and making sure there’s no backlash against protected groups.
The lesson learned is do not give the terrorists a chance to consolidate and kill their captives but go in as soon as possible.
No doubt in my mind the PJ commenter you quote is correct.
Remember Entebbe. Do NOT give the perps time. Period. As you say, Neo, go in ASAP with guns blazing.
Handwringing deferral of action out of purported ‘concern’ for hostages just gives evildoers more time to be evil. The problem always remains that when seconds count, the cops are ‘only’ minutes away.
“. . . it’s a graphic demonstration of how guns are neither good nor bad, but it’s how they’re used that counts.”
As I have offered in earlier posts, contra Piers Morgan, a gun’s purpose is not to kill but to shoot. What one shoots (i.e., killing) requires human intervention.
It is not at all merely a favored liberal narrative at work at the MSM. Nor do I believe they have any real interest in avoiding a ‘backlash’ – has there ever been one, in the West, of any significance? A backlash would be just the thing to flail at and with which to mercilessly reproach the common enemy, white Christians, Jews, and all of the irrepressibly intolerant.
The substance of Islam, the texts of Islam, the attitudes of islam, the atmosphere it willfully stages, the emanations from its sacred text and holy men, its unwavering orbit, and the barbarous figure of Muhammad and his temporal appetites about which it revolves, are well known, without resort to scopes – tele or micro. If one cannot see, hear, feel, or understand this its because one has chosen to disengage from reality. The only question then, is why? A shared enmity perhaps? I believe so.
Agree that sooner is better than later. But the rescue force has to know what it’s up against. In Entebbe, Sayaret did not just go in with guns blazing, but knew exactly what they were dealing with, from extensive debriefings of the non-Jewish hostages who had been released by the hijackers. Having an accurate intelligence picture, they were able to act decisively. It also helped that the hostages were being held in a static position in an unfinished terminal building, away from “collateral”. I’m sure the Kenyans were trying to get the info they needed–number of bad guys, how they were armed, how many hostages, where they were in the mall, etc., but a mall with active shooters and an unknown number of civilians is a very different animal than a hijacked airplane with an available passenger manifest and only a threat of violence. The Kenyans ended up with one of the worst of all possible situations, and had to deal with it as best they could. I heard they (wisely) asked for advice from Israel, Britain, and the US, but ultimately, it was on their turf and they had to send their guys in.
I heard they (wisely) asked for advice from Israel, Britain, and the US, but ultimately,
It was probably precisely the fact that they asked others, that they waited. They were waiting for the “powers” to tell them what to “do”.
And the powers are mostly Leftist in nature, not geared for “action”.
Have you ever planned an assault on an unknown number of terrorists holding an unknown number of hostages somewhere in a large, multi-roomed building? If you haven’t, and it’s a fair bet the Kenyan security forces hadn’t, then it might be a reasonable idea to ask others with more experience for some assistance. If the Kenyans had asked “operators” for advice in how to assault the terrorists holed up in the mall, they probably would have gotten a straightforward answer on what would likely work and what wouldn’t, and then over to the Kenyans to carry it out. If they had, God forbid, asked senior officials for “crisis management” advice, either in good faith, or because they wanted to place blame afterwards, then I think your theory has some validity.
First “wow” is all I can say to that story and the photos. As Haji says: “what a brave little girl.” And isn’t it just like a real hero to give praise to others? I guess that’s one way to tell the true heroes from the wannabees.
Second, I’ll not second guess what the Kenyans did or didn’t do. If they had gone rushing in with all guns blazing and 70+ people died they would be blamed for acting foolishly without a plan. Since they “waited” until they had more facts about what was going on they are blamed for waiting?
Damned if you do and damned if you don’t.
Thirdly, I would be surprised if the Israelis were not involved; just without all the fanfare – see my comment about true heroes giving credit to others. There would also be political implications of foreign forces involved in another country; especially if those foreign forces happen to be “Zionist” forces. Such action could very well lead to more terrorism.
I agree completely with the commenter in the PJM article. The Kenyan authorities are not heroes. They are incompetent. I doubt they trained for this type of situation: no demands, just killing. Police in the US changed tactics after Columbine:
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/2009-04-19-columbine-police-tactics_N.htm
But as the commenter mentioned, the police response in Cambridge / Watertown / Newton was yet another reminder of just how useless the police are. They locked down large parts of the city just to track down one person. And they didn’t find him! It was only after the lockdown was lifted that a civilian noticed blood on the boat in his driveway. I’d tell the police to go to hell next time.
And what about the recent navy yard shooting in DC? The SWAT team was ordered to stand down. Why are military bases gun free zones? That is criminal.
You must go as soon as you can. As far as making the decision that you can go I am so glad I don’t have to. Yes, a veteran rifle platoon could have retaken the place rather quickly, but how many hostages would survive (I personally as a hostage would rather go out in a firefight than slow torture). If you wait for the right intel, how do you know when there is enough when no one has direct experience? I think this is one of those cases where once the terrorist are inside and their plan is in motion there are no good solutions. People are going to die.
As for the Media and the Liberals they always assuage their self guilt with other people’s lives.
Agree with James.
A perhaps overlooked point is that “first responders” are not there without understood risk to themselves. Their task is to act, not to fine-tune and lower the risk to themselves. all while hostages are tortured and killed. Compare modern-day SWAT (and Kenyan) dithering to the Normandy invasion: did Ike wait for better weather so fewer Allies might get killed on the beachheads?
“People are going to die.” Yes. The evil-doers must be among them; all of them. De sooner de better.
Charles: “If they had gone rushing in with all guns blazing and 70+ people died they would be blamed for acting foolishly without a plan.”
I’ll go with this.
Mall patronized by the well-to-do and foreigners. Eyes of the world watching. There would be hell to pay if the Kenyan forces had rushed in, quickly subdued the terrorists, but just *1* hostage – say a child, say a media-ready elite-class American child – was killed in the crossfire.
This is one of those too common situations where an SOP can’t be changed by foresight even if the prediction seems obvious. Due to the way the world works, it can only be changed as a reaction to events. We can assume Kenyan counter-terror SOP will be changed now.
Better wording: Due to the way the world works, change can only be JUSTIFIED as a reaction to events.
Obviously the apparently best approach is to get them before they get there. But this can never be 100% effective. The enemy if he retains his morale will only get better, especially if he’s given operational room and rest periods. This though brings us to solutions that are unpalatable to many Westerns, ie large scale conflicts with weapons and forces not yet applied in the field. Islamicism has regained the initiative world wide and is pressing every where it can. To those who derive comfort from the civil war now being waged in the world of Islam and believe this will be it’s down fall and our safety, remember this, Rome went through a period of nearly 60+ yrs of on and off total civil war but remained a very potent and aggressive force to it’s neighbors for another 300 yrs.
“Protecting” us from the brutality that occurs when bloodthirsty Muslims take non-Muslims captive? “Protecting” Muslims in the West from a supposed “backlash”? Here’s a newsflash–there is never going to be a backlash, no matter how badly Muslims behave. We’re just too damn scared of them and too sick of their constant whining to say boo to them anymore.
The motive of the MSM is the imposition of Totalitarian Socialist Rule in America.
They consider themselves members of the ruing class so it’s not a problem for them. I am sure that they think they know what is best for the stupid regular people out here. And they are right that we are stupid. Really stupid. We have sat in the Comintern’s Schools for a full generation now. Never has there been a dumber generation, and a less religiously formed generation in – probably – WORLD history.
Tye Irish have a saying (whose spelling I will butcher) Uisge go Thalamh. It translates something like “Water goes under” and it refers to streams in parts of Ireland that all of a sudden dive underground, and disappear – but they emerge somewhere else, far away. The poetics is that some deep substance is not apparent on the surface of things but has “gone to ground” for a time, but is really there doing its work, about to re-emerge at any time, with full strength etc.
Is there still an America? We’ll have to see. If so, it is either underground already, or being pushed there.
The tea Party is being demonized like nothing since Catholic Churches were being burned and the Know-nothings were running amok. Concentration Camps, at this rate, cannot be far away. When you publicly demonize a group or a party long enough, an iron rule of history and human nature is that violence follows.
Is it too late?
We’ll know in a few weeks. Tops.
If you haven’t, and it’s a fair bet the Kenyan security forces hadn’t, then it might be a reasonable idea to ask others with more experience for some assistance.
The Kenyan’s best bet was to ask for American, British, or Israeli special forces to land in country and terminate their problems.
This “request” for assistance would then require the political masters to give the okay. Obama, of course, would give the stand down order, same as for the Americans he let die in Libya. Others would dilly and dally, for any number of reasons, even because they want to follow America’s lead.
If the “assistance” they requested was intel and suggestions, how long would that take given their lack of domestic capabilities and experience? If they ask the American, British, and Israeli forces to “train” their people so they don’t look like lackeys of foreigners… how long would that take?
My approach to this is no different than before.
Harden the civilian population, make them become as good, or better killers, than the terrorists that prey upon them. Wolves vs sheep is an obvious tactical situation. Wolves vs dogs when the dogs outnumber the wolves 100 to 1, may turn out differently.
Lethal force H2H range won’t stop bullets, but they’re not torturing you with bullets now are they. If they have to get in range of you to touch you, they are in your range. Even without firearms, trained killers and warriors are not absolutely helpless. They can acquisition weapons from storage or from hit and run attacks on the insurgents. Using guerilla tactics against the guerillas.
This removes much of the responsibility for the state to “protect” people, and puts the power back where it belongs, in the hands of those who have the most to lose.
This conditioning and training is already being utilized in the West. Nobody can stop it. All you can choose is whether only children who watch Hollywood movies and SWAT teams tested for loyalty based upon how many civilians they will obey orders to shoot, will be the ones with this training. Or “everyone” will have access to the training.
One of the reasons military and police don’t necessarily like civilians having the same or better training as them, is because there is no Authority Limiters.
The police and military shoot to kill and pull the trigger based upon the justification that they are following society’s morality, the authorization of their superiors and their just orders (vs illegal orders).
Civilians are not constrained by any of that, potentially speaking. Civilians are only constrained by one thing in the end, as they adhere to no authority telling them to kill or not kill. It is their conscience. If they think it is right, they will do it, as individuals rather than as a team, a mob, or a group.
So there is still an extreme amount of resistance to conditioning and training civilians to be killers.
Even in the Army’s case where females were raped on combat bases and had firearms but refused to fire, the Army will not recondition/retrain them to be able to fire on their fellow comrades. The Army’s doctrine is to train soldiers to pull the trigger when they are authorized to do so by Authority, and no Authority was given to shoot your male comrade over there for a blue on blue because of a rape Authority never knew about.
I sometimes wonder
what it would be like
to be the Wind
and flow over unknown lands
and unknown times
the part i know, i know
is just a part, a part
of the whole
and that knowing
is what makes me flow
i’d hate to see
myself blowing so hard
to topple the tree
that makes the building
that makes us free.
I see a change.
The time of passive resistence is coming to an end. I fervently hope and pray that there is enough political resistance to forestall that event. But if that does not happen, we are going to be seeing violent resistence. The tea party people, denied, will now respond. It will be welfare people and the gov’t vs. us tea party people.
We have massive animosity. Our unfamiliarity with violence is about to end because the reach went too far. We were willing to share power; we were willing to be tolerant. But that was not reciprocated.
Of course many of us knew this. We knew that socialism is a religion against God. We now enter into new “wars of religion.”
“Blowing too hard” is going to be awfully hard not to do. We have too much with which to blow, blow up, blow over, blow under.
I hope and pray the political process provides an answer.
Dozens of Students Killed at Nigerian College
The attackers were thought to belong to the extremist group Boko Haram.
Four paragraphs in, we learn who they are:
One thing you HAVE to give em, is that the name “Boko Haram” is cool, and so about, maybe half of the 42 killed . . . no big thang.
And the other half? Likely rebels against the Prophet Moham.is.mad and Holy But.ran. Ever hear the great President Obama (that’s President Hussein Obama to you, you kaffir) say “the Holy Koran?”
Remember, the future does not belong to those who slander the Prophet (profit of Obama).
Ummmm, mmmmm, mmmmm.
Take more than a rifle platoon. That’s thirty-plus guys. Advantage of going in from the top is, among other things, gravity helps with the grenades. If you miss, they don’t come rolling back at you.
When I was in, the idea of training for this in line Infantry units was unheard of. Of course, that was some time ago.
Now we have various specialized folks, including a training module or whatever they call it for Marine Expeditionary Units.
It takes a lot of guys because, amongn other things, you have to control the space you clear because there are more ways than one to get from one place to another and that means a well-rehearsed terr bunch can be coming at you from behind.
If you want to run and shoot anybody with a weapon or a mean expression, you can do that, but you won’t know when you’re done.
The observation that even one foreigner killed in the crossfire would never be forgotten is valid. One reason is that it’s easier to blame your own side–which you can do safely and for which you might even find accontability–than the unstoppable forces of Islamic terrorism, the forces of Islamic terrorism everybody knows the non-terr governments aren’t going to exert themselves to stop.
We are in the position of a boxer restricted to punching his opponent’s forearms and then only when the opponent launches a punch. Or like Israel, who fights the Arabs’ interest, and not even all of that, without making a dent in the principle (defined as endless supplies of otherwise useless young men, endless oil money, nutcase religious leaders, and eager weapons suppliers.
And our biggest fear is insulting those who cheer the terrorists.
My two cents, at today’s prices, not worth much: having learned the hard way, Israel has maps of every public place in extreme detail: number of steps on every entrance and staircase, the width and height of the steps, the shape dimensions of landings, locations and diameter of all vents and conduits. I have relatives that work in this field of computer mapping in Israel. I think after the Maalot hostage taking, the gov’t started the project.
With all do respect to former military and police on this list, my cousin ( presently a SWAT commander and Army reserves with time in Afghanistan) tells me that the Kenyans didn’t do half bad, given the location of the attack and the lack of hard info on the layout of the site and esp. the political restraints. This was my gut feeling too as an Israeli. My fear was that the terrorists would blow up the building to avoid capture and to become shaheed. I’m still surprised that the Kenyans caught and captured the terrorists.
ploni alimoni.
That’s Israel. Any other place, the terrs would hack the system and get the maps, presuming they didn’t have sympathizers inside already. Or modify the maps so the QRF was misinformed.
I’d been out about five years when Entebbe went down. Some of my ex-Army friends were nonplused as to why the terrs put everybody where they could be conveniently retrieved and didn’t block the runway. If anybody’d asked, we would have gone on the op just for the hell of it.
In 1970, I was almost drafted to jump into Jordan with the 82d. The Jordan Alert. But the hostages had been dispersed and nobody went. How tough is it to disperse hostages?
To top it off, it happened the first week in July. 1976. Damn’ Jews even upstaged our bicentennial. I ask you, what is that?
Point is, once the terrs have accepted a reasonable likelihood of martyrdom–or been fooled into thinking the thing is foolproof–the rest of their operational problems are pretty simple. What we think of as a bug, they think of as a feature, broadly speaking. And the biggest bug/feature issue is the lives of the hostages.
My suggestion is to go to the source, which is not where western governments are going just now.
Principle/interest; The Aubrey Explanation.
“Did Ike wait for better weather so fewer Allies might get killed on the beachheads?”
Actually, yes. The original date was June 5, but bad weather forced a 24-hour delay.
You know, there is an assumption that if the Kenyans went in with guns blazing there would have been a backlash. I wonder if that’s true. Seems to me that when the Algerians “went in with guns blazing” and ended the terrorist takeover of the gas plant in Ein Amenas last January, there wasn’t much of a backlash. The Algerians killed, what, 29 out of 32 terrorists, and lost 38 hostages.
I suspect the world at large is a lot more ready to accept the loss of hostages if it results in the swift deaths of all terrorists that we may think. Not including American leftists, of course.
Waidmann
Although one can never know with certainty what atrocities terrorists will inflict on hostages, we seem to be getting a pretty good indication of the intentions of islamist terrorists, Al Qaeda or otherwise.
Only swift, certain eradication of these fanatic guerillas at the earliest opportunity will help to curb repeated assaults on civilizations. Yes, even with the risk of additional dead or wounded.
Susanamantha
the only peope that say what you say are people who dont know what people have COMMONLY done in the past, as these are not original thinkers. they copy the past.
the problem is that past has been sanatized to the point you think movies are worse than what people do in reality.
no. people inflict harm on other people all the time, and they do so to extremes that the average person has no idea of. if you could read the police ticker as things come across, you would hear an endless litanyt of body parts and all kinds of stuff the news just doesnt report.
ie wwii, the people were a part of society and a part of the fight,. now, they keep the people insulated and they are not even allowed to know thye are in a war, or else their behaviors change
this of course is taken to worse extremes if the leaders dont only look away, but also condone or their doctrines describe what to do.
Lest some of these penalties may appear barbarous to some hypersensitive Western reader, let him cast a glance on drawing and quartering: a penalty of the English criminal code maintained as late as the eighteenth century, inflicted on those found guilty of high treason against the King or government. The person committed was usually drawn on a sledge to the place of execution; there he was hung by the neck from a scaffold, being cut down and disemboweled, while still alive; his head was cut from the body and his corpse divided into four quarters . . . . (vol. 3, p. 894, note 2121)
Siddiqi uses moral relativism to make islams actions seem tame. but note… there is a far cry from treason of a nation to a woman and child running around a mall trying to find something to buy
another line of moral defense is to twist the words of jesus (as well). as their is a difference between parable and law, and sura 5:33 bespeaks law, and the parables bespeak gods judgment at the end of days.
John 8:1-11 jesus prevented the death of someone who had sinned
unlike mohammed, jesus did not need an army of men to do horrible things. he had 12 legions of angels at his disposal if he wished it – Matthew 26:53
Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?
a man on ehe side of god need not hurt other men
the different is cargo cultism
jesus has substance in god, and so, needs not substance in a world that both teach is not real and is to make way for another place.
however, one looks to the substance of the last convenant (after mosesm, abraham, etc), returning man to grace… compared to something like 5:33, and what you have is a happiness with a surface that shows something with little regard for the substance underneath.
ie. one would rather have a tiny number of real followers, while the other is happy with a million people tortured to falsely act a certain way and pretend.
ie. substance vs surface…
once the fight is on the surface, then one can come up with all kinds of end justifies the means argumetns.
if the fights was over substance, then certain acts would be forbidden for they would, in their attempt, put away the end result that was the intent in the firs tpalce.
ie. you cant beat someone to loving you
but for one side, its a numbers game.
which is why they count followers the dont believe
or soviets want to buiuld things bigger farther, etc..
cargo cult…
only the surface matters
because thats all a ruler sees.
and to a ruler, the vision is indistinquishable from the other.
ie. from outside a block of gold and a bloc of lead plated with gold is almost the same… close enough for people who can get rewarded for semblance.
the only peope that say what you say are people who dont know what people have COMMONLY done in the past, as these are not original thinkers. they copy the past.
The Islamics are semi literate. How are they going to copy what they don’t even understand or know how to read?
I’m very well aware of what people have done in the past, and I would still say that it’s unpredictable what terrorists would choose to do given the wide away of tools humanity has produced. There are time, logistical, and other constraints at work as well.
the problem is that past has been sanatized to the point you think movies are worse than what people do in reality.
While it might be possible to predict what terrorists use for torture by watching movies, it’s certainly not guaranteed.
Reading a book or knowing what movies people watch, doesn’t confer “Certainty” on anything.
There are a couple of arguments against going in “guns blazing”. The first is “backlash”. If a nation’s leaders don’t care, as the Algerians have repeatedly shown they don’t, then it’s not an issue. They’ll take their lumps in the court of world opinion as the price for eliminating large numbers of terrorists (and, at times, hostages). The other principal reason is effectiveness. If you don’t know exactly where the bad guys are, where the hostages are, etc., then just opening up on rock-n-roll may not get you anything, or may only get you a bunch of dead hostages while the bad guys slip out the back door. Or they might be in fortified positions with better weapons in far greater numbers than you realize (think of the original ATF raid on the Branch Davidians to see how this might play out). Or you might kill everybody. Most politicians don’t have the stomach for most of these scenarios, and they’re ultimately the ones responsible for the actions of the security forces.
In my view the right approach with an active shooting situation is to go in as soon as possible. Use local forces, rather then wait for elite special forces.
I think Kenya reacted better then India did with Mumbai.
waltj,
Waiting can result in more dead hostages as well. Waiting allows the terrorists to consoladate and prepare, allows them more time to handle the hostages, etc.
The ATF Waco raid was conducted as a law enforcement operation against a group that was not expected to resist against a coordinated police operation.
Don has a good point wrt Waco. The feds and their stooges the media had demonized and othered the Branch Davidians–as they had the Weavers on Ruby Ridge–so that whatever happened to innocent civilians was not going to generate reproach among The Right Sort of People.
For a long time, you could get accused of redneckery for mentioning Vickie Weaver.
If the terrs have hostages, I don’t think we would see the hostages similarly smeared prior to or subsequent to their deaths. Which makes it tougher.
Absolutely, waiting can be a bad thing. But there has to be a balance between stumbling in blindly to a situation that isn’t fully understood, and waiting so long that the terrorists have everything set up to their advantage. Ultimately, the Kenyan security forces were dealt a rotten hand that they may have made worse by their reaction. But I wasn’t there, so until I hear otherwise, I’ll assume the Kenyans were doing their best to resolve the incident.
While not a terrorist situation, Waco only emphasizes my point on accurate intelligence. The ATF thought one thing, the BDs clearly had something else in mind, and eventually it all went sideways.
i hear the USA has a solution..
better education
“The schools [utilizing Common Core]… are organized in a highly centralized government-run system. They [Common Core courses] have the following characteristics in common: they are overwhelmingly secular in orientation; a common school is provided through at least grades seven or eight; little or no tuition charge is made; schools are mostly coeducational; the curricula are tightly prescribed, as are the textbooks…students are offered few electives…”
whoops, copied from the wrong source
from “Common Features of Education System in Communist Nations.”
Ymarsakar, your coming accross nutters
Ymarsakar:The Islamics are semi literate. How are they going to copy what they don’t even understand or know how to read?
well, first off, if you use a nonsense term such as terrorists, the pyou wont understand.
but lets just say that when the west was bibilcal not secular, the average reading level was about 10th grade. and children read books athat were 13th ggrade… today, we write at 5th grade… a 3 grade drop since i was educated as a child.
ISLAM is not illiterate… and one should respect ones winning opposition. your idea that your a winner cause you can disrespect people is a leftst inanity.
they are wupping your ass, and whether they read or not is irrelevent because youc CAN read, and they are wupping you.
in fact, they are wupping because they cant read!!!
All the feminists can read… no?
the OWS were college educatd readers… no?
heck… didnt the nazi party read mein kampf?
and didnt all the peole your complaining about read Marx?
given events, readidng seesm to be overated.
for all your reading, cell phones, and all that… your still bound up by yourself, dysfunctional, cant organize, cant oppose, stepping into slavery, dropping your culture and on it goes.
Ymarsakar: I’m very well aware of what people have done in the past, and I would still say that it’s unpredictable what terrorists would choose to do given the wide away of tools humanity has produced. There are time, logistical, and other constraints at work as well.
rally?
but these are not terrorists.. duh
these are mujahadin, jihadies
and what theya re doing is what they always do to kuffaar
maybe if you lump them all togetehr under a meaninguless label and call your self edumcated youc ant tell what they will do.
but the rest of us who makes distinctions betweeen thuggies, rote zora, and so on… well, its not unpredictrable at all.
you s ay that only because you cant predict
not because others cant
IF you undestand what each group stands for, what they follow, who they listen to, its EASY to predict them
but when you sit on your can, gabble with the turkeys making up stuff, and pretending erudition with no substasnce, then claim no one knows, well thats just silly
kuffaar is plural of kafir
can you define it without looking it up?
yet your in a converstation about this, and your going to play the everyone is ignroant card?
no, a lot of us, are not
i would bet waltj had a hard time biting his tongue sitting in indonesia while hearing you say this.
Kafir is a denigrating Arabic term used in an Islamic doctrinal sense, usually translated as “unbeliever,” “disbeliever,” or “infidel.” The term refers to a person who rejects God in Islam or who hides, denies, or covers the “Islamic version of truth.” The practise of declaring another Muslim as a kafir is takfir.
everything obama has done is out of a certani play book
everything they do is out of a certain play book
they share ends, as one thinks it can get rid of the other once it goes far enough (See hitler stalin doing the same dance)
Kufrul-‘Inaad: Disbelief out of stubbornness
Kufrul-Inkaar: Disbelief out of denial
yamarsker, all you ahve to understand to understand the mall seige is the religion and belief system of the people doing what they are doing…
ie. what is their motivation
since you have nothing specigfic in a blankjet word. you cant work out anything.
when the US flies drones, people are afraid, are they terrorists?>
is terrorism like the difference between arogance and confidence and depends on who is doing the looking?
as one mans confidence is anothers arrogance
literacy has nothing to do with anything if all you focus on is the cannon fodder…
By the 15th century, the word Kaffir was used by Muslims in Africa to refer to the non-Muslim African natives. Many of those kufari were enslaved and sold by their Muslims captors to European and Asian merchants, mainly from Portugal, who by that time had established trading outposts along the coast of West Africa. These European traders adopted that Arabic word and its derivatives
oh… so the jesuit priests of portugal were buying non muslim africans for the slave trade.
didnt you ever wonder why the slaves were not islamic?
the islamic leaders were selling kaffir to portugal who was using them to make rum, farm, and money in the americas
what do you think blacks who are so hip on islam would think if they knew that the white man is getting the blaem for the business ideas of islam and the jesuites
well, first off, if you use a nonsense term such as terrorists, the pyou wont understand.
I used the term Islamics. Generally, afterwards “terrorists” would be read in the context I wanted it to be.
You even quoted me using Islamic as the word, not terrorist. Not sure what you are complaining about here.
“ISLAM is not illiterate… and one should respect ones winning opposition. your idea that your a winner cause you can disrespect people is a leftst inanity.”
Hrm, do you Art, understand what semi literate means?
And when you read them in a book, did they explain that to you or were you interpreting the meanings from the book?
Do you understand what illiterate means?
I guess I can just say the same thing again.
The Islamics are semi literate. How are they going to copy what they don’t even understand or know how to read?