Extremism in the debt ceiling battle
William Kristol is absolutely correct:
To govern is to choose. To vote is to choose. To vote against John Boehner on the House floor this week in the biggest showdown of the current Congress is to choose to vote with Nancy Pelosi. To vote against Boehner is to choose to support Barack Obama. It is to choose to increase the chances that worse legislation than Boehner’s passes. And it is to choose to increase the chances that Obama emerges from this showdown politically stronger.
Republicans who are stonewalling Boehner’s proposal are ignoring the fact that politics is the art of the possible. They are also ignoring the Law of Thirds.
I would be surprised if everyone in the comments section here agrees with me. It’s an old, old question, discussed many times on this very blog—when does conviction become counterproductive ideological rigidity? I’d say, right about now.
Bill Kristol wrote, “ is to choose to vote with Nancy Pelosi.”
No. The Senate is in the SAME predicament. The bill that passes the Senate isn’t law without the House of Representatives buying in and passing it also. The House won’t choose Nancy or Harry’s bills.
I agree that is the art of the possible.
What is possible is that a few Democats in the Senate can come to their senses and realize they are out of here this coming election if they continue saying “no we must spend and spend and spend”
What is possible is that Representatives convince enough people to call their Senators to talk some sense into these extremists.
What is possible is the art of persuasion – even now I believe we have to convince people of doing the right thing and reducing spending.
CA btw, secured a $5 billion dollar bridge loan expecting that federal outlays will be interrupted.
States receive so much that many other states are preparing.
This is the art of preparing. This is the art of not falling off a cliff as Democrats want people to believe.
I believe this is all a good thing.
Look at all the education going on.
Look at all the powerlineblog videos.
Look at the people like my girlfriend who heard the asian markets will crash after Sunday night and seeing that they aren’t.
First of all, people know that businesses and markets can thrive if governments are shrunk. There might be some volatility in the next few weeks but there will be plenty of profit in that volatility.
Long term investers will not be harmed.
Ahhh! There’s no schadenfreude like political schadenfreude.
Think thee we do harm to the country and its future? Never thee mind. Think thee the pleasure of doing political harm to Obama and our opponents.
Has anyone noticed that the drop deadline for the raising of the debt ceiling coincides with the beginning of Ramadan….
(not that it means anything as it also coincides with lots of other things in history too)
so who will cut the salami?
when does conviction become counterproductive ideological rigidity? I’d say, right about now.
first you have to determine who is coming from ideology and following ideology rules…
if i have a conviction in capitalism, that is not ideology since even macac monkeys and other animals do capitalism.. (same proof for homosexuality)
marxism/socialism is an ideology which said capitalism is an ideology just so it can compete on equal footing.
if a group of people were left alone, and never learned economics, trading favors would be a norm… expeically around comparative advantage in talent… (ergo the worlds oldest business is being conducted now between a male chimpanzee with some meat to offer, and a female expert in what he wants)
the game only changes when there is a third party and deciding how money should be tapped to go to them…
socialism is nothing without state power to impose it, otherwise people would look at the person declaring themselves rulers adn fixers of it all, as wackos..
ie… without the guards, police, and their fealty to act first think second… we even fear public servants.
the necessity of protection and coordination against outside interests, is where the problem is.
do they serve the people paying them, or do rulers pay the people to serve them?
capitalism was the first time that the slaves said, no, we are the same as the king, and so, you get paid to do a job as we do with each other… we are all starting from the same point in capitalism.
sociailism was funded by whom and invented to do what and supported by what kinds of people to what end?
if industrial revoltuion freed men from kings and slaves from men…
then the regressive destruyction of the foundations would collapse the progress to what level? feudalism.
but feudalism backed by nuclear weapons..
imagine alexander the great, napoleon, and ceaser, at the same time… and each having nuclear weapons to use…
by the way… alexander the great, julius ceaser, nero, agustus, napoleon, Lenin, and many of the founding fathers of the US were redheads… (julius ceasers wife was also a red head)
ack.. i forgot to mention, the WHOLE POINT OF IDEOLOGY IS RIGIDITY…
The Republican plan would cut spending by $1B in 2012!
That is not a plan, it is joke.
What will be the result if an agreement ISN’T reached? Difficult to say but it certainly won’t be good.
What is the result if an agreement IS reached that does not include large spending cuts? We will have kicked the can off the cliff and shown that govt spending can never, ever be cut.
Might as well give up then because America is doomed. The most likely outcome is currency collapse and a totalitarian state.
To be frank, I have given up. I am just watching the kindling being set to light the fire and then? Then World Goes Up In Flames!
The debt ceiling will be raised, there is no doubt about that. The issue is how much it is raised, the details of a long term debt reduction plan, and the details in the 2012 budget. The republicans gained control of the House in large part through the enthusiasm of the tea party voters. These voters want fiscal responsibility in DC. The GOP should not assume they will retain their enthusiastic support if they cave in.
The GOP already passed the so-called cut, cap, and balance legislation (CCB) which the senate democrats have said is a non-starter without any debt occurring in the senate committees. Fine, send it to them again and again and again, while agreeing to a 90 day increase in the debt ceiling so Timmy the treasurer can send out those 80,000,000 checks for the next 3 months. Let the senate democrats and BHO be the ones who have to explain what is so terrible about the minor amounts of the cuts in the CCB.
Or else withdraw your plan and tell BHO to put a plan on table. The truth is the democrats are afraid to put a real plan on the table. All BHO has done is spout off about “a fair and balanced approach” and tell his betters “it’s time to eat your peas” and threatened “don’t call my bluff”. And the more he talks this silly nonsense the worse he looks and the lower his approval rating sinks. He’s the one skating on thin ice, not the republicans.
However, I believe the republican leadership will cave in by agreeing to raise the ceiling by another 2.5 trillion and pass a smoke and mirror plan that will have no significant cuts. BHO will be proclaimed Dear Leader by the MSM and his reelection bid will gain a great deal of traction.
I keep reading comments like Gary’s that make the perfect the enemy of the good.
The GOP has gotten some real gains that need to be solidified before they get torched.
Obama and Reid have accepted that any debt ceiling increase won’t be ‘clean’ and that it has to be tied to some form of spending reform.
They’ve pretty much given up on the idea that the plan has to be ‘balanced’ i.e. include tax increases.
Any extension is going to sunset no later than 2013 so it’ll be an issue next year.
But the GOP is in a bind. Obama and the Dems can still deploy ‘Mediscare’ and threaten to cut off SS checks. A failure to produce some kind of plan that will get sixty senate votes is going to leave the GOP holding the hot potato.
The GOP can keep pushing right up to 8/2 but an exit strategy is needed. The Boehener and Reid plans are close enough to form the basis for a compromise, and doing it that way is going to freeze Obama out of the picture for another GOP win.
by the way, the term “ideological rigidity” is used a lot by communist socialists… its a way to paint their unchanged ideas from 1850 as flexible because your ideas are not accommodating them, your rigid..
put the phrase in, and you get all manner of sociological bs… contradictory, and all maner of things dominated by the ideas from marxism… and frankfurt school, which dominates psychology.
but remember, the whole game of this is mental games of control… if i declare you rigid in public, and your not sociopaths or independent and have conviction, what are you going to do in dialoging to consensus fashion?
your going to be ashamed and your going to not want to be perceived as rigid.. your NOT going to see the declaration as a social wargame.
its STRAIGHT out of the neurolinguistic play book as much as playas use the dis to get the pretty girl.
search “WHOLE POINT OF IDEOLOGY IS RIGIDITY”
(to which i was to add to the party line, or politically correct mentality), go to the next page and you get.
and you get:
The Lesbian and gay studies reader
By Henry Abelove, Miché¨le Aina Barale
The second point is that ideologies survive only if they are able to change
that is fallacious… if it changes then it becomes something else… which is why marxist ideology MUST Beome rigid, and everything ELSE changes to accomodate it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Communist Party USA – Wikipedia
the third selection is a socialist view of Jeffersonian ideas.
the forth selection is a pdf of sociological study that tries to prove the vikings died ot as they were ideologically rigid.. – Ideological Rigidity and the Limits of Ingenuity
5th selection is:
Triumphs of Democracy / Noam Chomsky
Excerpted from Language and Responsibility, Pantheon, 1977
notice that we are a republic and soviet russia called itself a democracy…
here is chomsky
wish he would just go to russia or china and live there… he never lived in the world he would design..
and the 6th is the meme that neo has grabbed..
“The administration has purposefully imported a terrorist into the U.S. and is providing him all the rights of U.S. citizens in court,” said McConnell on the Senate floor. “This ideological rigidity being displayed by the administration is harming the national security of the United States of America. Why? Why? Why is a man, who is a known terrorist and enemy of the United States, being afforded these protections? And now, he is in the hands of the civilian authorities and will be given all the rights accorded to a U.S. citizen in a civilian court.”
7th selection is:
Henri Lefebvre on Marx, Religion, Philosophy, Ideology & Politics
I: Marxian Thought and Sociology
http://www.autodidactproject.org/other/lefebrvre1.html
It is on the basis of conscious revolutionary praxis that thought and action are articulated dialectically, and that knowledge “reflects” praxis, i.e., is constituted as reflection on praxis. Until then knowledge was characterized precisely by its failure to “reflect” reality, namely, praxis, could only transpose it, distort it, confuse it with illusions–in short, knowledge was ideological.
At the height of its development, ideology becomes a weapon deliberately used in the class struggle. It is a mystifying representation of social reality, or the process of change, of its latent tendencies and its future. At this stage–in contemporary racism, for instance–the “real” element is present; the human species does in fact include varieties and variations, ethnic groups and ethnic differences. But in racism extrapolation and transposition are carried to fantastic lengths; the extrapolation of a real element is combined with “values,” and the whole systematized with extreme rigidity. Consequently racist ideology can hardly be mentioned in the same breath with such a philosophy, say, as Kant’s. In the twentieth century, ideologizing has reached a sort of apogee within the framework of imperialism, world wars, and a monopolistic capitalism linked with the state. At the same time and because of this, ideology is discredited: extreme ideologizing is accompanied by a certain conviction that “the end of ideology” has been reached. But ideology is not so easily eliminated; to the contrary, it is marked by sudden flare‑ups and makes surprising comebacks. Aversion from ideological excess is no more than a pale foretaste of the transparency still to he achieved by revolutionary praxis and its theoretical elaboration on the basis of Marx’s work.
so the whole idea to declare rigidity is from a bunch of parrots of marx and such… trying to say that capitalism is the old way the rigid way the empirialist way, and on and on..
this then leads to things like
The Radicalism of Rigidity
http://www.watchblog.com/democrats/archives/005414.html
example:
No idea by itself is too dangerous, but any idea over applied with rigid fanaticism will likely have bad results. It doesn’t matter whether the idea comes from Karl Marx, Milton Friedman, John Locke, Adam Smith, or John Keynes; rigidity and the unbending application of any narrow set of precepts to solve every problem is dangerous and almost always bound to have disastrous, even if unintended, results.
obviously the writer ONLY read Marxists, and never actually read john locke, adam smith and milton freidman…
you can see this over and over as they tell you what the other side is, and at best, they are equal, at worst they are rigid monsters causing all ills and if not for them, we would be in utopia (this from the ideology that declares eden a joke)
and ALL of them, without exception, have never lived under the thing they fight for… havent you noticed that?
pick the BIGGEST supporters of communism in america… and guess what? they have never ever lived under it, only visited (and had their reality constructed for the visit), and read about wonderful things they picked to validate their beliefs…
Obama… ever lived in a communist state?
ayers? how about any of his crew?
BILL CLINTON did live in the soviet union rather than go to vietnam… (as did others)
AL GORE- nope / MARK PENN – nope / NANCY PELOSI – nope / MICHAEL MOORE -nope / OPRAH WINFREY / EVAN BAYH / MARKOS MOULITSAS ZUNIGA / RAHM EMANUEL
GEORGE SOROS did … and loved it… he learned how to be like a god from it..
while the koch brothers saw something completely different and decided to fight it.. not join it
ARIANNA HUFFINGTON?
Ouch, don’t say such things, Parker!
How to weigh this properly?
First, the good news: The tea party was strong enough to completely expose and condemn the entitlement attitude of “give me, give me;” we’ve then also shown how the debt is crippling America. The tea party defeated the fair sounding “balanced approach” of spending cuts and tax increases.
But let’s call the Boehner deal what it is: a punt. But it’s a punt from a good position and if we hold them for the next four downs, we’ve got a good chance at scoring.
Plus, the estimable mustached one, John Bolton, tells us, its time to grab the real estate we’ve won, secure it, reinforce, and go for the jugular. Let’s congratulate ourselves, hold a victory party in full sight of the zombic fortified castle, and enjoy a little R and R. We need a break.
http://tinyurl.com/4ycf48p
Parker wrote, “Fine, send it to them again and again and again,”
Absolutely!
You can’t even get the Senate to go for the Boehnor plan.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/D/DEBT_SHOWDOWN_REID?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-07-27-12-47-33
Law of thirds apply for each of the House bills.
Meanwhile there IS NO REID PLAN ON PAPER or voted on!
imagine this pickle?
Yet it only cuts $1 billion in 2012?
Yet it only cuts a trillion over 10 years?
What’s the problem Reid?
ugh.. I have to conduct another interview… The candidate is in the hot seat. However, when I come back – I bet you we’ll see a plan from Reid! NOT!
I consider myself a principled conservative. I also consider myself a pragmatist. I have continued to pressure my congress critters to stand for no less than dollar in cuts for a dollar increase in the debt ceiling. I also press that the cuts happen while this congress is in session, not in out years. If that means that they raise the debt ceiling in several small steps over the next 14 months while cutting immediate spending at the same time so be it.
As a matter of law, no congress can bind the legislation of a future congress simply by passing a law. The only way to bind future congresses is to amend the constitution. For this reason I support a balanced budget amendment with a hard tax cap based on GDP, and an out clause only in the case of war declared by the congress.
So that is where I stand on debt and spending. What do I think the republicans should be doing at this point? They should be doing everything possible to slow down Obamacare, and the rest of the left’s agenda. They should be shining the bright light of oversight into the administration’s dark corners. They should be doing as much as possible to slow spending. They should be making the malfeasance of this administration clear to the voting public. They are doing a pretty fair job on all these things, but there is one overwhelmingly important task that they must accomplish. They must convince the voters to place the Senate and the white house in Republican hands in 2012. While future events may change things, at this juncture there is nothing more important than winning in November.
Many of my principled fellow conservatives decry such thinking as “playing politics”; They wind up about borrowing another 1-2 trillion dollars that we don’t have; They accuse the house GOP of caving; They threaten primaries; They rage on and on. I understand and share their anger and frustration. However, at this point we fight for the hearts and minds of the middle of the country. We won the first battle in 2010. That got us back on the battlefield. Without the Senate, we do not have the weapons to win this fight this year. Yes technically the house republicans could simply say over and over that CCB is it. It is a good bill. It gets us the opportunity to put a balanced budget amendment before the states. If we held the Senate we could pass it and place Obama between a rock and a hard place.
We don’t hold the Senate. It takes two consecutive sweeps and the White House to get enough control to push or repeal major legislation against the wishes of the minority party; That is how the system is designed; That is simple reality.
The Democrats in the house and Senate are, for the most part, the same people who passed Obamacare ignoring the most vocal and focused opposition of their constituents seen in the nearly six decades I’ve been alive. No amount of public pressure will get CCB through the Senate. I’l say it again NO AMOUNT. That too is reality.
We must not ask the house to do what is practically impossible and in so doing lose the country in 2012. At some point they need to put up a compromise that keeps the issue front and center into next year and forces further votes. That also means they eventually must raise the debt ceiling. I don’t like it; I don’t support it; I accept that is reality.
To vote against Boehner is to choose to support Barack Obama.
Umm, no.
Boehner’s plan doesn’t cut squat. It isn’t what they promise to do 10 years from now, it’s what they promise to do next year that counts. If there are real, sizable cuts there, then that’s acceptible. Hundreds of billions in cuts in year 10? that’s smoke and mirrors and magical thinking.
Base line budgeting means we’re not going to get any real cuts any time soon. All we’re doing is slowing the rate at which we zoom over the debt cliff.
Can anyone name a single instance were the Democrats have actually followed through on any of the promises they have made to secure a compromise? Anyone?
That also means they eventually must raise the debt ceiling. I don’t like it; I don’t support it; I accept that is reality.
As long as they don’t raise it so much that it doesn’t come up for debate again next year. This must part of the discussion of the presidential campaign next year.
Because the Democrats never had fiscal credibility with me and the Republicans lost theirs, I haven’t given the current lying, posturing, smoke & mirrors, and demagoguery much attention. My current attitude is fatalistic.
That said, I suspect Neo is correct.
Neo, did you not read that all the ratings agencies plan to downgrade U.S. bonds if a plan to cut at least $4 trillion (over 10 years, I believe) is not passed? No proposed plan comes even close to such cuts: passing the existing plans guarantees a downgrade. Three agencies, all foreign, have already downgraded U.S. bonds.
The Republicans are too cowardly to pass what is necessary, and the Democrats are as stupid as a pet rock, and think that everything will be A-OK as long as they get to spend money. Obama will sign any bill that crosses his desk: he is lying when he says he won’t.
The SHTF is now, not next year.
What Henry Bowman said.
(Oh, by the way, Mark Levin is savaging the Kristol article at this very moment.)
This is not about ideological rigidity; it’s about fourth-grade arithmetic, as Karl Denninger likes to say. Any plan that talks about cuts in the future is a damn joke, since the current Congress cannot bind future Congresses.
What the Republicans have to do is send a budget to the Senate which shows that it is possible operate the government without a debt increase. Defund all the useless departments and agencies: the Department of Stupidification, the Department of “Energy? We don’t got no stinkin’ Energy! We don’t need no stinkin’ Energy!” The Department of “We’ve Got More Employees Than There Are Farmers.” Let the Bureau of Indian Affairs run on the oil royalties they stole from the Indians and won’t give back, regardless of what a federal court says. No more NEA or NEH, CPB, or Transportation Stealing and Groping Authority. No more price supports for sugar in Louisiana, rice in California, or corn in Iowa! No, no, no!
Where, oh where is Dave’s accountant, now that we need him!
richard,
you make me laugh.
Senate wouldn’t pass it.
My question is – how is any government operation moving forward without a budget?
Continuing resolutions???? Stop them now!
Baklava:
I hope you don’t think I beleive the Senate would pass such a budget. The point is for the House to pass it, and then fro members appear on every news show, newspaper, talking head show, blog, twitter and facebook page and say, “Yes we did!”
Folks these proposed plans cut at best cut 4 trillion over 10 years. That not a significant. All of their assumptions are based on annual budgets using a baseline budget which was about 1.5 trillion in the red. At that rate we reach a debt burden of somewhere north of 25 trillion in just ten years. And that’s all assuming the cuts actually materialize. (Don’t hold your breath.) Furthermore, will GDP be 25 trillion in 10 years? If so, do we want a debt burden that is 100% of GDP? How about a debt burden of 150 or 200% of GDP? And will the investors allow that to happen by buying our debt? What interests rates will they demand? We are about to venture into territory beyond the edges of the map.
Nearly everyone, government and private citizens alike, has become addicted to easy credit. Its time to stop mainlining borrowed cash. If we don’t do this willingly, in a calm, careful, and rational manner the markets will do it for us. At this time, the best thing that could happen to us is to lose our AAA rating. We need a slap in the face followed by a bucket of icy cold water.
This is what I tell kids who have behavioral problems: If you can’t control yourself, others will control you, and you won’t like it.
Respectfully, Neo, I completely disagree.
This problem is being made out to be way more convoluted than it actually is. We simply do NOT have the money for something like this.
If nothing happens, the effect will be as though the Balanced Budget Amendment were already passed. The tax receipts coming in more than equal what has to go out to fund Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, the military, the debt, etc.
I’ve lurked for a while, but rarely comment, simply because I don’t often have the time for lengthy posts, and that’s just the way I write.
However, something I’ve started to say here several times, but never finished the post for…
We are so far in the whole right now that it is almost unrealistic to believe that we have any way out other than massive inflation. We owe over 100,000,000,000,000 to ourselves and others with entitlements, debt, etc.
I don’t have time to get too far into it, but here is what this means. Every man, woman, and child in the United States is on the hook for more than $333 THOUSAND for the largesse of 536 (including the president) individuals. This is not each household, this is every single person.
The very fact that this is the “best we can do” is unbelievable.
Have you heard about the Mack Penny Plan? That’s a very viable alternative. Honestly, doing NOTHING right now, allowing August 2nd to come and go, is a more viable alternative than what we have going right now. It doesn’t mean default.
Obama owns this. You want to get the point across to people, go out there and say that the Democratic House (when they controlled it) failed to even PRESENT a budget on the hopes that the GOP would end up owning this issue. The Senate STILL has not produced a budget. Neither the Dems in the Senate, House, or the White House have shown HAIR ONE of a solution. Their ENTIRE MO seems to be to go out and trash the Republicans (You and me, although I’m far more right wing then you are), and try to pin the blame on them for this. The Republicans have fielded multiple budgets, and multiple proposals for the debt issue over the past 2 years. If not a single one has been even considered by the Dems in the Senate or House or the WH, that’s not our problem.
We all knew (or should have known) EXACTLY what was coming when Obama was elected. TotUS is a better liar than Bill Clinton ever was, and that’s saying something.
Anyway, to quote the movie Gladiator, “The time for half measures and compromise is over.” There is no way that this entire episode will not be unbelievably painful for the country. It’s impossible for it not to be, and it has nothing to do with who cares or doesn’t care enough. The fundamental problem is that the facts do not add up. There is no way out of this other than through it at this point.
At what point is it ok to take a stand? At what point do we finally rise up and tell Congress that enough is enough? To “cave” and go with ANYTHING LESS than Cut, Cap, and Balance will be an effective repeat of Neville Chamberlain’s “Peace in our time” deals.
Part of the problem is the obfuscation. Washington has things wound so tight that no one can trace everything they do/spend on. The system is broken, and it’s getting worse. At some point, you have to fight back against the bully, or he will take your lunch money all the way through college and beyond.
In this fight, we need a Patton, not a MacArthur. MacArthur wanted everything perfect before he moved (So did McClellan, now that I think about it). Patton had the nerve fortitude and will to recognize the heart and go for it. So did Wm. T. Sherman and US Grant, or any other competent commander.
I agree with this post on one point. We cannot wait for things to be perfect. However, we cannot hand over our lunch money and say, “I’ll fight back tomorrow…” either.
The debt issue is the heart of the problem in Washington. Right now, we need to be Patton and go for it. I firmly believe that the country is on our side in this, especially if this debate is outed for what it actually is.
If not us, then who? If not now, then when?
The Dems more than own this problem. They have 5 years of owning this problem, during which things have gone from decent to bad to worse. Obama and Reid look very foolish right now. Pelosi hasn’t been seen in ages. The heart is exposed, and it’s time to drive in the dagger.
It will be painful because it has to be. The debt is such that it cannot be anything other for our entire country. But we have perhaps 1 last chance to stave off disaster and avoid repeating the folly of nearly every major societal entity since the beginning of history.
Rome is already burning, but it is up to us to put the fires out.
And one more thing. People keep talking about “how can we do this to our grandchildren and children?” and such. Saddle them with debt and effectively sentence them to a life of serfdom.
I will be 33 this year, and it is not my children I am worried about. It is myself. When Calamity comes knocking, it will be at my door, not my children’s. The noose will be around my neck, not my children’s. It will be off of MY labor that this debt must be paid. It will be I who is made the serf. To me that makes this fight worth having. It also takes it out of the realm of ideology, and puts it PURELY into the realm of self preservation.
If you look at it, none of us have anywhere left to go.
Parker:
I’m not sure whether this comment doesn’t belong in the Amy Winehouse thread. The parallels are rather striking.
I should have added to my last comment: “And the results will be equally unsurprising.”
nyght,
Bravo! Other than my own adult children, I rarely come across younger adults (you’re about half my age) who truly understand what is at stake. You give me hope that there are many younger adults out there who realize that they are in the crosshairs. Thank you for realizing our ‘leaders’ are attempting to lead you down the road to serfdom.
The first step in solving a problem is to identify the true nature of the problem. You’re already there while many twice your age are not.
Sincerely,
Parker
rickl says, “And the results will be equally unsurprising.”
Yes, DC has been taken over by a swarm of Amy Winehouse clones for many decades now. And the results will indeed be equally unsurprising. The difference is AW took only herself down and at least she could belt out a song with the best of them. The drunken sluts in DC are a rather loathsome, out of tune bunch working on their backs to take us all down.
It is said a wise man fears three things: a storm at sea, a moonless night, and the vengeance of an honest man. DC is not filled with wise men or women. This all will come to a bad end someday soon.
Yes, great comment, nyght.
Meanwhile, Denninger has a new Ticker up:
Boehner: GET REAL!
I second the encomia to nyght’s comment.
Re the magnitude of our debt, try this with your liberal friends/interlocutors: ask them how many zeroes in 10 trillion. I’ve never encountered one yet who gave the correct answer. Liberal arithmetic apparently runs to “one, two, three, many.”
Be wary of the Law of Thirds, neo; it’s the handmaiden of the hoary chestnut that “truth lies in the middle,” which abdicates reasoning for an ersatz Solomonic-type decision making (and thereby rewards those staking out the most extreme position). The truth does not always lie halfway between the opposing positions.
And the middle third, if such there be, are generally there because they’re too disconnected from events to generate an informed opinion. Europeans used to denigrate our politics as a choice between Tweedledum and Tweedledee, but that’s no longer true. The lines are sharply drawn now: capitalism or socialism, prosperity or “fairness,” freedom or security, opportunity or “equality.” Much like pregnancy, the decision is binary; there is no middle ground.
Young people and blacks are really paying for their support for Obama, but they don’t see it yet.
Re rickl/Winehouse:
Same thing crossed my mind, and maybe Neo’s, consciously or not.
Boehner’s plan is just as bad; so voting with his plan is like voting for Obama.
The republican opposition is as much a sham political game as the democrat’s objections to it.
Waste another trillion now with hypothetical cuts of less than one trillion over 10 years using phony math / numbers (really, there are no real cuts… just less explosion of spending).
As a cherry on top; this discretionary spending stuff in insignificant when compared to entitlements (less than 10% of the budget)… which neither side is talking about dealing with… none the less; there is no money in the social security or medicare trust funds right now and even if there was; it would run out in the 2020’s… ie; the bills will be sky high.
I hope we just stick it to the boomers then… they set themselves up for it by refusing to deal with the problem in the past (like now or when it has come up in the past).
Curtis Says:
“But let’s call the Boehner deal what it is: a punt. ”
It’s stupid because if it passed; the republicans would have a hand in what is going wrong. Just let Obama have his way as a means of washing your hands of his policies.
The votes are in on this blog: We are not buying the Kristol line. This is a binary choice, There is no middle ground. We do the right thing or we all eat BS. Whether it comes out of Boehner or Reid or Obama matters not. It is BS.
Parker Says:
“Yes, DC has been taken over by a swarm of Amy Winehouse clones for many decades now.”
Might be apropos on another level. She may have died because of the shock to her system caused by quitting* (it’s rather stressful on your body to quit a highly addictive drug quickly). Even now, there would be hell to pay for economic reality. It’s going to be even worse down the line.
* It’s what killed Jerry Garcia.
Indeed, thomass.
A proposed rule of thumb: the worse the dysfunction, the more traumatic the cure.
Sometimes cliches cut to the heart of issues. Here are a few:
1. Just say no.
2. A penny saved is a penny earned.
3. There’s no time like the present.
I had some dealings with a financially stupid person, and she refused to listen to a thing I had to say. I cut her off. As others have noted above, our government is run by Amy Winehouses. They must be cut off.
The Republicans must take a firm stand. Wimping out will not gain them votes. Obamacare must be repealed, and the trillions for shovelready graft rammed through in 2009 must be cut from the budget.
Our Congress is run by clowns. We need grown-ups running things. I’m not an ideologue. I’m just a woman who knows when to say “enough,” and I’m saying it.
If the Republicans can’t stand the heat, they should get out of the kitchen. (One of my favorite cliches.)
Curtis says, “How to weigh this properly?”
Its simple 3rd grade math once you plug in the numbers. You don’t need calculus or linear algebra (or eat your peas 10 year fantasy plans) to figure this out. Addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division will suffice.
“If not us, then who? If not now, then when? … none of us have anywhere left to go.”
nyght understands. This is the moment to stand firm or acquiesce. Choose: defiance or serfdom. Playing the DC-MSM game at our peril is not in my lexicon. If not now, then when indeed!
Belmont Club is always fascinating. I just read a comment on a previous post that described the different between a herd animal and a predator and the need for situational analysis.
Here’s a new post that some may find interesting:
http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2011/07/27/jack-and-the-boehner-stalk/#more-15971
We don’t need to be herd animals. We need situational awareness. In my personal case that means storing up food in the basement and learning to defend my property and my life.
Tomorrow I’m having lunch in one of the bluest districts of a blue state with 6 very angry grannies. I’ll bet we aren’t the only angry grannies around.
Obama and the crazy clown congress should be very afraid of Americans who have had enough of the misrule.
Boehner’s plan isn’t the solution, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere, and its heading in the right direction.
Arguably, more (much more even) is possible, but there is this old saying about the bird in the hand and two birds in the bush. The game changer doesn’t happen until November 2012, and until then, incremental, but nonetheless clear, change is a credible outcome.
Boehner and the Republicans have held firm. As long as they understand this is only the start (and I believe they do), then all is good.
If the Boehner plan does go through however, the broader political implications are tough for Obama and the Democrats. Reid and the Democratic Senators have put in writing (before even seeing the final version) that they will not vote for it. Obama has indicated he would veto it if passed, but his position is less clearly defined.
But here is the rub, what is worse, default now, or another round of debt ceiling negotiations in 2012? With Bush debt ceiling raises were annual, and under Reagan they were roughly six monthly, so what’s the big deal? Debt will be pushing past $15-16 trillion — shouldn’t that be subject to frequent and intense discussion?
We all know the answer of course and it is political. But while it becoming an increasingly difficult line for Obama and Democrats to argue, to actually not vote or to veto the bill purely on those political grounds, to risk or cause a default simply because it is politically undesirable to vote again in an election year, simply will not work. And that goes doubly considering Obama and the Democrats have no fall back plan of their own to wave around as an alternative (although Reid is trying hard to have something, anything, ready for this purpose).
Obama has had his bluff called and, as promised, has now taken his case to the people…….who appear to have collectively yawned and gone to make a cup of coffee while waiting for their usual programming to return. How does the Great Communicator come back from being so comprehensively rolled (by the Republicans) and ignored (by pretty much everyone else)? He IS the great Communicator, right?
Hillary Clinton is not doubt huddled with Bill and her advisors — she only needs Obama to fall a little more in the polls, and for Sarah Palin to declare (she will figure her best chance is against Palin, and Democrats will want to ensure they have the first female President), and the time will be right for her to find an issue to resign over so she can run in 2012.
Promethea says, “Our Congress is run by clowns. We need grown-ups running things. I’m not an ideologue. I’m just a woman who knows when to say “enough,” and I’m saying it.”
The ‘intellectuals’ on the right have not the stomach to fight. We, you and me and others like us, know the line has been drawn. Make no mistake about it, the defining moment is approaching. 2-3 years tops.
“Boehner’s plan isn’t the solution, but it is a start. You have to start somewhere, and its heading in the right direction.”
Boehner’s plan is a start? Here is my analogy… I have gangrene in my left thigh and blood poisoning it streaking up my leg. To cure my gangrene I cut off my perfectly healthy left little toe. Voila! I am cured?
That’s why the GOP needs ex-Democrats in the fold 9like you, and my JFK-Democrat dad). Moderation.
“”That’s why the GOP needs ex-Democrats in the fold like you, and my JFK-Democrat dad). Moderation.””
Wry Mouth
There’s nothing moderate about reaching a compromise to bale only half the water needed to save a boat from sinking. It’s simply extremism created from a fear of tough decisions.
I am not sure why this should not be seen as bargaining. One should always push for the best deal one can get. This is not Checkers. This is a war.
Lets give up for an artificial deadline that now seems to be not so much of a deadline. Extremist seems to be the new Race card. Play it and everybody folds.
All this extremism drivel is just a ploy. It is no wonder those opposed to the Left lose so many skirmishes. You give up just before you are about to win.
The Republican party could lose the Tea Party over the Boehner-which-will-become-Reid plan. I think I’m on the side of the hobbits in this one.
kaba is correct. Giving up or giving one dollar in return for democrat promises is stoo pid.
Republicans still don’t get it. Democrats are at war with you, regardless of whether you think the Left and their ALLIANCE is at war with you.
Many Americans didn’t get it either. That’s why they voted Obama and Democrat. But as the Iraq war happened and we saw the Left’s response to it, when we saw JournoList and how the New York Times doesn’t even care to be paid for their propaganda, they’d DISCOUNT their front page ads for Leftist causes. They don’t even need to be paid, if they had their way, to spew out Leftist propaganda… that’s probably why they want government funding, subsidies, and support.
Republicans are still operating in the American political tradition of you scratch my back, I’ll scratch you. Let’s make a deal, you give me what I want and I’ll give you what you want. What the Left wants is your in a slave collar working in the fields and on your knees in the house. What exactly are we getting in return for that? Food? Luxury? Cradle to grave care? The privilege of bowing to our Leftist masters? What is it that We Got exactly?
Boehner does not inspire confidence. Until he gives me evidence that he has at least as much fire as Sarah Palin in chewing up the Left, in his heart of hearts, Boehner isn’t going to get any confidence vote. Possibility is 99% based upon human intentions and motivations. If Republicans don’t have a spine, and they ask to be trusted to put the nail in the coffin of the Left… I’m not sure that is worth anything in this world.
What kind of worth is that promise anyways? Have they demonstrated their ruthless drive to purge the Democrats and crush them on all fronts? As if. Have they demonstrated the ability to understand Leftist evil and be aware that this is on the same level of the Islamic jihad and is even greater a domestic threat? As if.
So what use are they.
Insurgencies do not grow and revolution is not favored unless the occupation decides or is forced to decide, to face slap and behead a bunch of locals. So long as there is a “possible” solution, people will not take up arms via a majority. So long as there is a slim sham of an excuse for a political process, people won’t take the death defying leap.
And thus slow socialism and Leftist subversion is accomplished. As it has been done for the last 60 years.
People may not remember this because they never studied it in depth, but the Left took control of all these social organizations like feminism and civil rights, solely because they relied upon the reasonable characteristics of the original founders. They got an organization with a reputation for doing good, and then turned it to evil, and nobody figured it out until it was too late. Why is that, do you know. Why is it that the founders of civil rights or feminism couldn’t take back their movement once it was hijacked by the Left? Why do they resign as leaders of such organizations when they realize that 90% of the people working under them owes their loyalties to the Left, and not human rights?
Because they didn’t cut off the head of the snake before it sunk in its fangs.
I’ve seen no evidence that Congressional Republicans can imagine the depth of the Left’s evil and crimes against humanity. What use could they possibly be in this war.
In this context and respect, I would never support Boehner. I would simply use him to support my own purposes. Never would I “support” people or causes that I don’t believe in. Their cause is not my cause. Their fight isn’t even on the same hemisphere as my fight. But I’ll make use of them, since they are there and they can be of use. To me, that is.
They want support do they. What they will mostly get is cooperation, a temporary alliance. We’ll cooperate until they cease to be of use, then it’s time to discard them.
BTW,
I made this point earlier. Boehner’s bill won’t pass the Senate either.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/27/all-53-senate-dems-sign-letter-to-boehner-your-bill-will-never-pass/
ALL 53 Senators !!!
Imagine a scenario where you are being told that you are voting for Reid and Pelosi if you don’t pass a certain bill.
Yet – the certain bill won’t make it either.
Bill Kristol, please understand – we need a solution. We ALL get that. But this bill which cuts $1billion this year won’t get it done either.
Richard wrote, “The point is for the House to pass it, and then fro members appear on every news show, newspaper, talking head show, blog, twitter and facebook page and say, “Yes we did!”
I don’t know what you think.
I hear what you are saying.
We see that all 53 Senators signed a letter.
I can’t match up your sentence and the Senators sentences and make it work.
They’ve already said to us “Whatever!”.
How do we get it done in the face of the obstance?
How can we get along ourselves without being told we are for Reid and Pelosi.
I’ve had problems with Bill Kristol before when he uses language as he uses…. I suppose that is why he is where he is. He has a sharp tongue.
Well Bill – direct your sharp language to the 53 Senators and the people in those states.
I get emails from grassfire nation and if this is true, then it changes things:
More “sleight-of-hand” tricks are coming out of Washington.
House Speaker John Boehner is back at the drawing board developing another debt hike bill after being told by the Congressional Budget Office that his prior spending bill fell far short of the $1 trillion in cuts he promised!
This is fumbling the snap!
Now I know why more people distrust Republicans than Obama on the debt issue!
I was wrong. It’s not $1 billion in savings this year it is $22 billion.
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/07/27/cbo-scores-boehners-new-bill-22-billion-in-savings-this-year-917-billion-over-10-years/
Harry Reid is telling Republicans that they are wasting their time.
http://dailycaller.com/2011/07/28/reid-spokesman-%e2%80%98boehners-bill-dies-tonight%e2%80%99/
Bill Kristol thinks we are voting for Reid and Pelosi if we vote against a bill that Reid will kill anyway.
ok then…
So. It’s come to this.