The only way Islam can be defeated – and I mean Islam, not just Islamism – is to convict Muslims by proper demonstration that Allah is dead. We MUST give them their Goddamerung, as we did this to Japanese in Hiroshima.
We are constantly reminded by jihadists that ideas can be killed by munitions, in attempts to demoralize us. Well, not necessary true: this depends on the yeld of munition, measured in megatonnes.
Correction: can not. Actually, they can – if you have guts to do so.
I highly respect Caroline Glick and for those who accuse her of ‘chicken little’ syndrome, I would point out that living in Israel must give one a rather different perspective on the immediacy of the Jihadist threat.
Glick provides great insight into Israeli politics.
I’ve reached the conclusion that Islam’s theological tenets make Islam itself the problem but am not ready to concede the need to make war on 1.5 billion Muslims.
At present, the ‘stealth jihad’ McCarthy describes that is being orchestrated against the West is a greater civilizational threat, than conventional attacks.
As I previously elaborated upon, I propose a new doctrine in which Islam is held responsible for the actions of the radicals, based upon the criminal culpability of moderates, who in their facilitation of radical Islam, in effect act as collaborators.
Nuclear terrorist attacks are, long-term, the greatest threat both Israel and the US face and, once nuclear proliferation spreads into multiple, unstable third-world nations, that threat becomes much more probable.
Greatly increased nuclear proliferation is now certain.
The deadliness of that threat demands reevaluation of our assumptions about the very nature of the enemy we face, as we can no longer afford to make mistakes in judgment. Having done that reevaluation has led me to the conclusions I’ve expressed.
In developing a strategy of deterrence, I focused upon what Islam’s radicals most desire to preserve and retain and that led me to how to credibly threaten what they value.
The one thing Islamic radicals cherish above all else is Islam, the focus of their fundamentalist religious fervor. Islam is a set of beliefs and that can’t be physically threatened, nor should it be.
But Islam has it’s physical symbols like any other religion and Muslims place great importance upon theirs.
I propose to make the retention of their most cherished religious sites dependent upon avoidance of conflict with the West.
And make no mistake about it, they venerate with religious devotion Mecca, Medina and the Dome of the Rock.
Consider that pilgrimage to Mecca is the fifth pillar of Islam, a religious duty that must be carried out at least once in their lifetime by every able-bodied Muslim, who can afford to do so. Each year, during the Hajj, about two millions Muslims visit Mecca.
So, I’m proposing that Israel adopt a new doctrine that declares that Islam will be held accountable for any WMD attack upon Israel.
And that such an attack will be met with a nuclear attack upon Mecca and Medina and the destruction of the Dome of the Rock, Islam’s third holiest shrine in Jerusalem.
That is well within Israel’s defensive capabilities and making it an explicit doctrine will have a real deterrent effect upon Muslims.
It’s time we faced a truth; hunting down and killing Islamic Jihadists is an insufficient deterrent. As we all know, they welcome martyrdom.
It’s time we faced what the financial support of Saudi Arabia et al, the strident sermons in mosques in the West and the utter silence of the Muslim majority in the West, mean and indicate; complicity in and the condoning of the murder of innocents.
Facing those realities requires a strategy that makes Islam accountable and sends a new message; from this point forward, Islamic violence must have a limit or it will cost Islam an unthinkable price. And that, the greater the violence, the higher the cost shall be.
Or we can suffer the loss of a major city and either launch nukes killing millions more or surrender, live as second-class citizens and watch future generations grow-up in a state of near-slavery to a hate-filled, misogynistic religion that declares itself to be God’s vision for mankind.
Whether you do something or don’t do something you will always come under some criticism. It could have been done cheaper, more quietly, louder, with greater (or lesser) impact or effect, less (or more) could have been killed, whatever. The et makes us all pundits.
The world as we know it is in the process of imploding. Liberals and statists are in the ascendancy. As Israel goes so goes the USA. Israel is now the target of intense hatred and the stupid criticism is just the tell. The hate calling itself antizionism also inflames antisemitism and gives the hatred of Jews legitimacy around the world. If Israel leaves the world stage that hatred will quickly be directed at the USA. Under the Dope, we will have earned every bit of it.
Now is the time for unity and strength. It not the time for some unhelpful pundits to tear apart the moral underpinnings and the morale of the people of Israel. The new rallying cry should be (paraphrasing Mel Brookes), “Hooray for Israel and the rest can go to Hell!” And, when you think about it, if you can’t persuade the critics to the rightness of your cause, because they see only what they want to see, move on and continue to do the right thing.
How is it western civilisation leaders can’t see these information battles of jockeying for hearts and minds is really a secondary and distracting issue? Do we want to be powerful and prosperous, or weak and mediocre thus having more world citizens and press like us? We can’t have both. I choose the former. Which was the choice of our forebears for 200 years that made us the greatest country ever known.
Surely this obssession with a non aggressive image in a highly competitive world is a bubble near to its bursting point. Without hurting feelings there is no competitiveness. Without competitiveness there is no advancement. A horrible thing to consider for humanity.
I spent several hours today discussing current events in Greece with an American who marred a Greek woman and moved to live there. He thinks there is no solution to the situation they have allowed themselves to get into. Similarly, I wonder if there is any solution to the perpetual war waged on Israel by Islam. Threaten to Destroy Medina and Mecca? I suspect many of them would say “bring it on.”
Many years ago (1956, to be exact) I lived for a year in the Arab world. I was young then (as might be expected) but I left that country pretty well convinced that the logic we use in the west does not work in the Arab world. A + B does not equal C, it equals “I’M GOING TO KILL YOU!” or some such formulation. I just plain could NOT understand how rational humans could listen to several statements of a syllogism and reach a dramatically different conclusion than I or other westerners I knew.
Threatening to destroy holy sites is a meaningful threat to us in the west; in Saudi Arabia it might as much be an invitation to increase the anti-Israel jihad. These, after all, are the folks who think it’s a good idea to strap dynamite under their shirt and detonate it. The word “irrational” does not do them justice. I’d say a better description is that they’re in a different dimension. F
F,
I’ve talked to other people who have spent time in the M.E. Arab countries who shared a similar point of view about the mentality of the region. And everyone is in agreement that Islamic Jihadists seek martyrdom.
That however is quite a different matter than making war upon Islam. I have no doubt that many Muslims would say ‘bring it on’, as bravado is an art form in the Islamic world. Perhaps you remember in the first Gulf war, Saddam Hussein’s threat to confront the coalition forces with “the Mother of All Battles”?
He changed his tune pretty quick after shock and awe hit him though. Bravado is always used as a cover for insecurity and a lack of self-confidence, which lies at the heart of Islamic societies.
Israel probably would have to demonstrate that the threat was not an idle one. But after the demolition of the Dome of the Rock, followed by the utter destruction of the city of Qom…
If Israel then turned to Islam’s radical clerics and in effect said, “OK, now you know we’re serious, do you want to go for Medina next or are you going to put Mecca on the table too and go ‘all in’ ?”
The thing to remember is that Islam’s religious fanaticism is a cover, at heart they’re just religious bullies and bullies always back down, once they know they’re in for a real fight.
Excellent Observations “F”. Are you taking note Georffrey, logical threats would serve as a provocation rather than as a deterrent.
BTW for a while in the 1990s it looked like at least the majority of Arab states were on the verge of ending the war thanks to the apparent resolution of the Palestinian problem. Arafat and the second intifada ended that.
As for the insights of Caroline Glick, My impression is that she only impresses people outside of Israel. In fact her writing is largely bookkeeping mixed with the usual gevalts. In Israel I would be surprised if she is anything other than a bore.
Reality, if it exists, is that the average Israeli family knows first hand what foreign cultures are like and how to size up the military potential of the leaders and populations (for instance did you know that in terms of useful military population Israel has the Arab countries outnumbered). The average Israeli can size up his European Gaza loving enemy and what they see are neurotic children playing a game, children who are not even worthy of contempt. One does not lose anything to nobodies like that.
Here is a story: many years ago when I was living in Israel I heard a particular piece of anti-Israel hate propaganda from the BBC. Remember the goal of hate propaganda is to encourage the murder of a particular target. But I almost laughed my head off, as any Israeli would. The same broadcast if heard outside of Israel would leave me angry and indignant. The difference is that in Israel there was muscle, a lot of it, on my side. Factoid, Israel has more tanks and planes than the UK or France. And when fully mobilized, more combat troops than the US. Knowing this do you think any Israeli is going to be impressed by a pack of yepping dogs at the UN? Another factoid, Israel has the second highest number of hi-tech start up companies in the world.
Which brings us to Ms. Glick’s damming the government for losing to Israel’s enemies, by what criteria. The big losers are Turkey and Hamas. Whattttt! But how could I, here in west Nebraska deny the wisdom of a Jerusalem Post correspondent? Well first the Turks just told the world that they are willing to provide logistical support to what amounts to a terrorist attack. The defense departments of the west have to pay attention to that. The Turkish government has been exposed, that is a victory for our side. Furthermore the “peace activists” managed to get publicity all right, so much now that the media is reporting their terrorist-extremists connections. Another victory for our side, at least for those countries at war with Islamo-fascism. As international outrage, have you noticed the millions of protesters in the streets. Odd that the dog is not barking.
As for the NPT, pleassseee, only someone with the brains of Obama cold take that seriously,
Geoffrey, I do not think the Israelis are capable of the level of brutality that would be necessary to frighten the Arabs into accepting peace. Which we can agree is the only way peace is currently possible.
In an earlier post I wrote the only way Israel would obtain peace is by torturing 300,000 Arabs to death on television and throwing a party. I was not joking. the problem, as you and others noted, the Israelis are far from a violent people, which of course encourages attacks.
That reminds me of an Arab proverb,” a man who goes about without a sword is not a man of peace because he encourages his neighbors to attack him.”
Sergey and Bob From Virginia
You are sick dudes.
Thinking just like..well sort of like the terrorists. More importantly like the terrorists want you to think. It’s funny but you are clearly not horrified by murder or war or death. You just want it to be controlled by your side. It’s all about power to you.
God save us from your type of thinking.
MDL I may be a sick dude but at least I know when I am being sarcastic. I was not personally proposing mass murder, I was saying that considering the current state of the Arab world it mass murder works, regrettably. It was a comment on how sick Arab society is.
(You may be right about Sergey though, I don’t know if he can be trusted.)
BoV, “logical threats would serve as a provocation rather than as a deterrent.”
No offense Bob, but you clearly don’t understand how a deterrent works.
I.want.to.provoke.them, I want them really mad…so mad, they can’t think straight.
And then, I want Israel to shove it right down their throats by showing them a ferocity, that brings out the cowardice, the hides within every bully.
In a dogfight, “It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.” Mark Twain
Here’s a perfect illustration of what I’m getting at; a difficult lesson
Your dismissal of Ms Glick indicates to me that you think Israel is still winning. They’re not winning Bob, they’re losing. They’re but a few rounds of struggle away from what shall amount to capitulation. They’re almost ready to give up.
They’re losing because they’re fighting “not to lose” instead of fighting to win.
Israel’s leadership, the IDF and the Israeli public are tired. They’re tired because they believe they’re in a fight that they can’t win. And they’re right, they can’t win a fight in which the rules consist of “tails I win, heads you lose”.
Ironically, what has led to this is Israel’s acceptance of American aid, which has made them dependent and, even more harmful to Israel, it has forced Israel to let America set the terms of engagement with Islam’s agents; Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc..
And modern America, in trying to appear ‘fair’ and not ‘take sides’ (beyond aid and protection in the UN) is telling Israel to only fight their Nazi’s to a standstill, instead of inculcating an attitude of ‘killin Nazi’s’…
Just consider, How would our fight with the Nazi’s have gone, had we done the same?
With the best of intentions and in the fullest fidelity to Just War Theory and politically correct thinking, the US, since the 70’s, perhaps starting with Nixon but certainly with Carter, has been pushing the ‘peace process’ not telling Israel to “win the damn war”.
It’s Chamberlain’s approach, not Churchill’s.
But Islam isn’t interested in peace, they’re only interested in victory and that’s why they’re winning.
I could go on and address your other points but until we see eye to eye on this, we’re just ‘talkin past’ each other.
I am just as horryfied by death, war, and murder as anybody else. But unlike some people, I think all this things are inevitable, so we must contemplate how to meet them at the most favorable for us terms. Wishful thinking will not prevent this things to occure, so risk/cost/benefit analysis of all possible scenarios, including nuclear war, restricted or otherwise, is needed.
The main problem of Israel is its double identity: it is a Western country placed in ME. To survive in ME, it needs to play according to the rules applicable to this rough neighborhood, that is, be strong and unforgiving in its reactions to all provocations. But it also needs to keep alliances with the West and for this goal to play according to Western rules of engagement. These 2 requirements are not compatible. Israel needs to project 2 different images: one of 800 pound gorilla for her neighbours, and second of peace-loving, ready for compromisses Western democracy for her Western allies. Arafat has the same problem: he played innocent victim image for his western sponsors and a fire-breathing Jew-busher for his Arab sponsors. But he did it in English for the West, and in Arabic for Arabs. Nethaniyahu had to do both in plain English, which is impossible task. Since the West abandoned its colonial past and accepted multiculturalism, it became impossible to be nice in European eyes and a formiddable opponent in the eyes of Arabs and Turks simultaneously. And this is unresolvable dillemma for Israel, unlees she boldly and unashamely declare herself a colonial regional superpower, just as neoconservatives under Bush declared USA a global colonial superpower. For this, Israel needs a neoconservative POTUS as the only ally which counts. That is, weathering bad times until change of power in Washington.
Bob, now you’re engaged in bravado Geoffrey Britain talked about.
Re: your disdain of “gevalts” plays with your sense of reality. You’re forgetting that sometimes, when you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they are not coming to get you.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin, referring to American Jews’ voting patterns, commented that it almost calls into question the story of Jewish intelligence.
Worse, much worse, is the Israelis’ continuing belief that, by disadvantaging themselves, they can earn the good will of the world.
The observation about the Russians and the pirates is right on.
It is said that many or most Muslims don’t think terrorism is a good idea. That, as one observer said, is tactical.
If you ask whether they think Islam should rule and all should be subordinate to it, the numbers are quite high. It’s the methods.
But, the number of those who support terrorism are high enough, thank you.
They’re going to keep coming, one way or another, until something terrible happens.
See Wretchhard’s Three Conjectures.
“”It’s funny but you are clearly not horrified by murder or war or death.””
MDL
This is similar to the liberal abhorence of controlled burns of our forest. How could someone purposely set fire to trees and harm the deer and squirrels?
The fact is, grownups know there are times to sacrifice in this world. That destruction is sometimes indeed the answer, to avoid destruction on a massive and calamitous scale.
Hate to agree with Sergey’s point of view, but cannot help but think of the comments of many WWII era folks when discussing Imperial Japan. Long tired and weary of talk of divine guidance, kamikaze attacks, beheading contests and the laundry list of sadistic and horrific crimes, something was done about it. Maniacs need to be controlled and confined or just flat out stopped.
Israel may be beleaguered but she holds some hostages. Somebody mentioned the holy sites the animals worship at. That’s one. The other, and the more valuable, is the oil wells. “If we go, so does the ME oil…Oh, by the way, how’s the clean up going off the LA coast?”
Assuming Israel has the firepower to carry out the threat, she needs to quietly issue it to folks in Washington, London, Brussels, Beijing, New Delhi, as well as to those capitols in whose lands the oil lies. Meanwhile, it wouldn’t hurt to do something ruthless to prove Israel doesn’t do bravado. And it’ll have to be a lot better than the flotilla f-k up.
This were, as I remember, Menachem Begin’s words: “Arabs have oil, but we have matches”.
armchair
Geoffrey Blainey, an Australian historian, wrote a book on the causes of war. Come to think of it, that was the title.
His view was that it was a matter of a failure to communicate.
The French and British did not communicate to Hitler just exactly how they felt when he militarized the Rhineland in 1936. Indeed, by being bluffed, they encouraged Hitler and encouraged some of his doubtful professional military men that he knew what he was doing. Comes WW II.
The Brits did not communicate clearly enough to the Argie junta what they were prepared to do about the Falklands….
Problem is, the people on the other side really, really want some things to be true because they really, really need them to be true. Like the Brits wouldn’t fight. Mussolini, probably after a weekend reading Wodehouse, remarked that the British, once a race of magnificent adventurers, were now a line of tired rich men’s sons. The Germans felt the same about the Brits and the US. The Japanese comforted themselves about their lack of manufacturing capacity for war with the thought that Americans lacked the samurai spirit.
You have to be really, really direct to break through such wishful thinking.
In the meantime, voices of pacifism…. See Orwell.
a comment about the comment suggesting the Israelis should treat world opinion with the same disdain as the Russians because showing concern only encourages attack by the righteously indignant; the odd thing is Israelis are like that, the government for some reason is not.
“Arabs have oil, but we have matches”. A wise man with a powerful message.
I’ll play the American optimist and turn the treat into an opportunity. If Israel could establish herself as the protector of the world’s oil deliveries out of the middle east against all threats and mad men, then she would enjoy the support, however cynical, of the governments of 3 or 4 billion people. Jews have a good sense of humor, and would likely chuckle at becoming the new Knights of Malta!
Damn my proof reading! Make that:
I’ll play the American optimist and turn the threat into an opportunity.
What really fuels irrational hatred of modernity in Arab countries is a growing feeling of ultimate failure. Their culture is dying, incapable both to cope with modernity and to modernize. So all these paranoid fantasies and inability to tell reality from fairy tales. To see right before their noses successfull modern Jewish country is something they can not tolerate anymore, a sore wound to their “honor”.
armchair pessimist what’s proofreading?
Bob,
Good one! I can’t even proofread my proof reading
Armchair, almost nobody is good at proofreading. It took me 2 years of very hard work, 8 hours every weekday in this trade before I became more or less professional in it.
Try proffreeding when you’re Add.
Can anyone speculate what the world will look like in 2012 if this is what happens after 16 months of Obama’s incompetent weakness?
Somebody, perhaps at Belmont Club, speculated that Iran may dare us to do something so horrible we would not do it and thus lose whatever was at issue.
One possibility would be as in the Iran-Iraq war.
Picture a battlefield with the US forces dug in on a line. Out front are minefields of scatterable mines.
The Iranians send 100,000 young boys with plastic keys (symbolizing the key to heaven) into the minefields to clear them by stepping on them.
Following that are a hundred thousand adult soldiers, trained only to move forward and fire an AK 47.
What would be the American political impact of our troops killing those helpless chumps over the space of, say, half a day in a space of, say, half a mile wide by five miles long? With our weaponry, it would be easy.
Point is, Iran has already done that. The guys in charge can certainly do it again, given the power within the country (which is not guaranteed at this date but you’d not have thought they had it back then, either).
More to the point, what would be the backlash against Israel if they did it?
..and this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ABjE_7uwA0I
The only way Islam can be defeated – and I mean Islam, not just Islamism – is to convict Muslims by proper demonstration that Allah is dead. We MUST give them their Goddamerung, as we did this to Japanese in Hiroshima.
We are constantly reminded by jihadists that ideas can be killed by munitions, in attempts to demoralize us. Well, not necessary true: this depends on the yeld of munition, measured in megatonnes.
Correction: can not. Actually, they can – if you have guts to do so.
I highly respect Caroline Glick and for those who accuse her of ‘chicken little’ syndrome, I would point out that living in Israel must give one a rather different perspective on the immediacy of the Jihadist threat.
Glick provides great insight into Israeli politics.
I’ve reached the conclusion that Islam’s theological tenets make Islam itself the problem but am not ready to concede the need to make war on 1.5 billion Muslims.
The former US prosecutor Andrew McCarthy is ahead of most on this issue and his thoughts are well worth perusal; http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2010/06/026438.php
At present, the ‘stealth jihad’ McCarthy describes that is being orchestrated against the West is a greater civilizational threat, than conventional attacks.
As I previously elaborated upon, I propose a new doctrine in which Islam is held responsible for the actions of the radicals, based upon the criminal culpability of moderates, who in their facilitation of radical Islam, in effect act as collaborators.
Nuclear terrorist attacks are, long-term, the greatest threat both Israel and the US face and, once nuclear proliferation spreads into multiple, unstable third-world nations, that threat becomes much more probable.
Greatly increased nuclear proliferation is now certain.
The deadliness of that threat demands reevaluation of our assumptions about the very nature of the enemy we face, as we can no longer afford to make mistakes in judgment. Having done that reevaluation has led me to the conclusions I’ve expressed.
In developing a strategy of deterrence, I focused upon what Islam’s radicals most desire to preserve and retain and that led me to how to credibly threaten what they value.
The one thing Islamic radicals cherish above all else is Islam, the focus of their fundamentalist religious fervor. Islam is a set of beliefs and that can’t be physically threatened, nor should it be.
But Islam has it’s physical symbols like any other religion and Muslims place great importance upon theirs.
I propose to make the retention of their most cherished religious sites dependent upon avoidance of conflict with the West.
And make no mistake about it, they venerate with religious devotion Mecca, Medina and the Dome of the Rock.
Consider that pilgrimage to Mecca is the fifth pillar of Islam, a religious duty that must be carried out at least once in their lifetime by every able-bodied Muslim, who can afford to do so. Each year, during the Hajj, about two millions Muslims visit Mecca.
So, I’m proposing that Israel adopt a new doctrine that declares that Islam will be held accountable for any WMD attack upon Israel.
And that such an attack will be met with a nuclear attack upon Mecca and Medina and the destruction of the Dome of the Rock, Islam’s third holiest shrine in Jerusalem.
That is well within Israel’s defensive capabilities and making it an explicit doctrine will have a real deterrent effect upon Muslims.
It’s time we faced a truth; hunting down and killing Islamic Jihadists is an insufficient deterrent. As we all know, they welcome martyrdom.
It’s time we faced what the financial support of Saudi Arabia et al, the strident sermons in mosques in the West and the utter silence of the Muslim majority in the West, mean and indicate; complicity in and the condoning of the murder of innocents.
Facing those realities requires a strategy that makes Islam accountable and sends a new message; from this point forward, Islamic violence must have a limit or it will cost Islam an unthinkable price. And that, the greater the violence, the higher the cost shall be.
Or we can suffer the loss of a major city and either launch nukes killing millions more or surrender, live as second-class citizens and watch future generations grow-up in a state of near-slavery to a hate-filled, misogynistic religion that declares itself to be God’s vision for mankind.
Whether you do something or don’t do something you will always come under some criticism. It could have been done cheaper, more quietly, louder, with greater (or lesser) impact or effect, less (or more) could have been killed, whatever. The et makes us all pundits.
The world as we know it is in the process of imploding. Liberals and statists are in the ascendancy. As Israel goes so goes the USA. Israel is now the target of intense hatred and the stupid criticism is just the tell. The hate calling itself antizionism also inflames antisemitism and gives the hatred of Jews legitimacy around the world. If Israel leaves the world stage that hatred will quickly be directed at the USA. Under the Dope, we will have earned every bit of it.
Now is the time for unity and strength. It not the time for some unhelpful pundits to tear apart the moral underpinnings and the morale of the people of Israel. The new rallying cry should be (paraphrasing Mel Brookes), “Hooray for Israel and the rest can go to Hell!” And, when you think about it, if you can’t persuade the critics to the rightness of your cause, because they see only what they want to see, move on and continue to do the right thing.
How is it western civilisation leaders can’t see these information battles of jockeying for hearts and minds is really a secondary and distracting issue? Do we want to be powerful and prosperous, or weak and mediocre thus having more world citizens and press like us? We can’t have both. I choose the former. Which was the choice of our forebears for 200 years that made us the greatest country ever known.
Surely this obssession with a non aggressive image in a highly competitive world is a bubble near to its bursting point. Without hurting feelings there is no competitiveness. Without competitiveness there is no advancement. A horrible thing to consider for humanity.
I spent several hours today discussing current events in Greece with an American who marred a Greek woman and moved to live there. He thinks there is no solution to the situation they have allowed themselves to get into. Similarly, I wonder if there is any solution to the perpetual war waged on Israel by Islam. Threaten to Destroy Medina and Mecca? I suspect many of them would say “bring it on.”
Many years ago (1956, to be exact) I lived for a year in the Arab world. I was young then (as might be expected) but I left that country pretty well convinced that the logic we use in the west does not work in the Arab world. A + B does not equal C, it equals “I’M GOING TO KILL YOU!” or some such formulation. I just plain could NOT understand how rational humans could listen to several statements of a syllogism and reach a dramatically different conclusion than I or other westerners I knew.
Threatening to destroy holy sites is a meaningful threat to us in the west; in Saudi Arabia it might as much be an invitation to increase the anti-Israel jihad. These, after all, are the folks who think it’s a good idea to strap dynamite under their shirt and detonate it. The word “irrational” does not do them justice. I’d say a better description is that they’re in a different dimension. F
F,
I’ve talked to other people who have spent time in the M.E. Arab countries who shared a similar point of view about the mentality of the region. And everyone is in agreement that Islamic Jihadists seek martyrdom.
That however is quite a different matter than making war upon Islam. I have no doubt that many Muslims would say ‘bring it on’, as bravado is an art form in the Islamic world. Perhaps you remember in the first Gulf war, Saddam Hussein’s threat to confront the coalition forces with “the Mother of All Battles”?
He changed his tune pretty quick after shock and awe hit him though. Bravado is always used as a cover for insecurity and a lack of self-confidence, which lies at the heart of Islamic societies.
Israel probably would have to demonstrate that the threat was not an idle one. But after the demolition of the Dome of the Rock, followed by the utter destruction of the city of Qom…
If Israel then turned to Islam’s radical clerics and in effect said, “OK, now you know we’re serious, do you want to go for Medina next or are you going to put Mecca on the table too and go ‘all in’ ?”
The thing to remember is that Islam’s religious fanaticism is a cover, at heart they’re just religious bullies and bullies always back down, once they know they’re in for a real fight.
That’s why they invented Taqiyya.
http://www.islam-watch.org/Warner/Taqiyya-Islamic-Principle-Lying-for-Allah.htm
Excellent Observations “F”. Are you taking note Georffrey, logical threats would serve as a provocation rather than as a deterrent.
BTW for a while in the 1990s it looked like at least the majority of Arab states were on the verge of ending the war thanks to the apparent resolution of the Palestinian problem. Arafat and the second intifada ended that.
As for the insights of Caroline Glick, My impression is that she only impresses people outside of Israel. In fact her writing is largely bookkeeping mixed with the usual gevalts. In Israel I would be surprised if she is anything other than a bore.
Reality, if it exists, is that the average Israeli family knows first hand what foreign cultures are like and how to size up the military potential of the leaders and populations (for instance did you know that in terms of useful military population Israel has the Arab countries outnumbered). The average Israeli can size up his European Gaza loving enemy and what they see are neurotic children playing a game, children who are not even worthy of contempt. One does not lose anything to nobodies like that.
Here is a story: many years ago when I was living in Israel I heard a particular piece of anti-Israel hate propaganda from the BBC. Remember the goal of hate propaganda is to encourage the murder of a particular target. But I almost laughed my head off, as any Israeli would. The same broadcast if heard outside of Israel would leave me angry and indignant. The difference is that in Israel there was muscle, a lot of it, on my side. Factoid, Israel has more tanks and planes than the UK or France. And when fully mobilized, more combat troops than the US. Knowing this do you think any Israeli is going to be impressed by a pack of yepping dogs at the UN? Another factoid, Israel has the second highest number of hi-tech start up companies in the world.
Which brings us to Ms. Glick’s damming the government for losing to Israel’s enemies, by what criteria. The big losers are Turkey and Hamas. Whattttt! But how could I, here in west Nebraska deny the wisdom of a Jerusalem Post correspondent? Well first the Turks just told the world that they are willing to provide logistical support to what amounts to a terrorist attack. The defense departments of the west have to pay attention to that. The Turkish government has been exposed, that is a victory for our side. Furthermore the “peace activists” managed to get publicity all right, so much now that the media is reporting their terrorist-extremists connections. Another victory for our side, at least for those countries at war with Islamo-fascism. As international outrage, have you noticed the millions of protesters in the streets. Odd that the dog is not barking.
As for the NPT, pleassseee, only someone with the brains of Obama cold take that seriously,
Geoffrey, I do not think the Israelis are capable of the level of brutality that would be necessary to frighten the Arabs into accepting peace. Which we can agree is the only way peace is currently possible.
In an earlier post I wrote the only way Israel would obtain peace is by torturing 300,000 Arabs to death on television and throwing a party. I was not joking. the problem, as you and others noted, the Israelis are far from a violent people, which of course encourages attacks.
That reminds me of an Arab proverb,” a man who goes about without a sword is not a man of peace because he encourages his neighbors to attack him.”
Sergey and Bob From Virginia
You are sick dudes.
Thinking just like..well sort of like the terrorists. More importantly like the terrorists want you to think. It’s funny but you are clearly not horrified by murder or war or death. You just want it to be controlled by your side. It’s all about power to you.
God save us from your type of thinking.
MDL I may be a sick dude but at least I know when I am being sarcastic. I was not personally proposing mass murder, I was saying that considering the current state of the Arab world it mass murder works, regrettably. It was a comment on how sick Arab society is.
(You may be right about Sergey though, I don’t know if he can be trusted.)
BoV,
“logical threats would serve as a provocation rather than as a deterrent.”
No offense Bob, but you clearly don’t understand how a deterrent works.
I.want.to.provoke.them, I want them really mad…so mad, they can’t think straight.
And then, I want Israel to shove it right down their throats by showing them a ferocity, that brings out the cowardice, the hides within every bully.
In a dogfight, “It’s not the size of the dog in the fight, it’s the size of the fight in the dog.” Mark Twain
Here’s a perfect illustration of what I’m getting at; a difficult lesson
Your dismissal of Ms Glick indicates to me that you think Israel is still winning. They’re not winning Bob, they’re losing. They’re but a few rounds of struggle away from what shall amount to capitulation. They’re almost ready to give up.
They’re losing because they’re fighting “not to lose” instead of fighting to win.
Israel’s leadership, the IDF and the Israeli public are tired. They’re tired because they believe they’re in a fight that they can’t win. And they’re right, they can’t win a fight in which the rules consist of “tails I win, heads you lose”.
Ironically, what has led to this is Israel’s acceptance of American aid, which has made them dependent and, even more harmful to Israel, it has forced Israel to let America set the terms of engagement with Islam’s agents; Iran, Syria, Hamas, Hezbollah, etc..
And modern America, in trying to appear ‘fair’ and not ‘take sides’ (beyond aid and protection in the UN) is telling Israel to only fight their Nazi’s to a standstill, instead of inculcating an attitude of ‘killin Nazi’s’…
Just consider, How would our fight with the Nazi’s have gone, had we done the same?
With the best of intentions and in the fullest fidelity to Just War Theory and politically correct thinking, the US, since the 70’s, perhaps starting with Nixon but certainly with Carter, has been pushing the ‘peace process’ not telling Israel to “win the damn war”.
It’s Chamberlain’s approach, not Churchill’s.
But Islam isn’t interested in peace, they’re only interested in victory and that’s why they’re winning.
I could go on and address your other points but until we see eye to eye on this, we’re just ‘talkin past’ each other.
I am just as horryfied by death, war, and murder as anybody else. But unlike some people, I think all this things are inevitable, so we must contemplate how to meet them at the most favorable for us terms. Wishful thinking will not prevent this things to occure, so risk/cost/benefit analysis of all possible scenarios, including nuclear war, restricted or otherwise, is needed.
The main problem of Israel is its double identity: it is a Western country placed in ME. To survive in ME, it needs to play according to the rules applicable to this rough neighborhood, that is, be strong and unforgiving in its reactions to all provocations. But it also needs to keep alliances with the West and for this goal to play according to Western rules of engagement. These 2 requirements are not compatible. Israel needs to project 2 different images: one of 800 pound gorilla for her neighbours, and second of peace-loving, ready for compromisses Western democracy for her Western allies. Arafat has the same problem: he played innocent victim image for his western sponsors and a fire-breathing Jew-busher for his Arab sponsors. But he did it in English for the West, and in Arabic for Arabs. Nethaniyahu had to do both in plain English, which is impossible task. Since the West abandoned its colonial past and accepted multiculturalism, it became impossible to be nice in European eyes and a formiddable opponent in the eyes of Arabs and Turks simultaneously. And this is unresolvable dillemma for Israel, unlees she boldly and unashamely declare herself a colonial regional superpower, just as neoconservatives under Bush declared USA a global colonial superpower. For this, Israel needs a neoconservative POTUS as the only ally which counts. That is, weathering bad times until change of power in Washington.
Bob, now you’re engaged in bravado Geoffrey Britain talked about.
Re: your disdain of “gevalts” plays with your sense of reality. You’re forgetting that sometimes, when you’re paranoid, it doesn’t mean they are not coming to get you.
Rabbi Daniel Lapin, referring to American Jews’ voting patterns, commented that it almost calls into question the story of Jewish intelligence.
Worse, much worse, is the Israelis’ continuing belief that, by disadvantaging themselves, they can earn the good will of the world.
The observation about the Russians and the pirates is right on.
It is said that many or most Muslims don’t think terrorism is a good idea. That, as one observer said, is tactical.
If you ask whether they think Islam should rule and all should be subordinate to it, the numbers are quite high. It’s the methods.
But, the number of those who support terrorism are high enough, thank you.
They’re going to keep coming, one way or another, until something terrible happens.
See Wretchhard’s Three Conjectures.
“”It’s funny but you are clearly not horrified by murder or war or death.””
MDL
This is similar to the liberal abhorence of controlled burns of our forest. How could someone purposely set fire to trees and harm the deer and squirrels?
The fact is, grownups know there are times to sacrifice in this world. That destruction is sometimes indeed the answer, to avoid destruction on a massive and calamitous scale.
Hate to agree with Sergey’s point of view, but cannot help but think of the comments of many WWII era folks when discussing Imperial Japan. Long tired and weary of talk of divine guidance, kamikaze attacks, beheading contests and the laundry list of sadistic and horrific crimes, something was done about it. Maniacs need to be controlled and confined or just flat out stopped.
Israel may be beleaguered but she holds some hostages. Somebody mentioned the holy sites the animals worship at. That’s one. The other, and the more valuable, is the oil wells. “If we go, so does the ME oil…Oh, by the way, how’s the clean up going off the LA coast?”
Assuming Israel has the firepower to carry out the threat, she needs to quietly issue it to folks in Washington, London, Brussels, Beijing, New Delhi, as well as to those capitols in whose lands the oil lies. Meanwhile, it wouldn’t hurt to do something ruthless to prove Israel doesn’t do bravado. And it’ll have to be a lot better than the flotilla f-k up.
This were, as I remember, Menachem Begin’s words: “Arabs have oil, but we have matches”.
armchair
Geoffrey Blainey, an Australian historian, wrote a book on the causes of war. Come to think of it, that was the title.
His view was that it was a matter of a failure to communicate.
The French and British did not communicate to Hitler just exactly how they felt when he militarized the Rhineland in 1936. Indeed, by being bluffed, they encouraged Hitler and encouraged some of his doubtful professional military men that he knew what he was doing. Comes WW II.
The Brits did not communicate clearly enough to the Argie junta what they were prepared to do about the Falklands….
Problem is, the people on the other side really, really want some things to be true because they really, really need them to be true. Like the Brits wouldn’t fight. Mussolini, probably after a weekend reading Wodehouse, remarked that the British, once a race of magnificent adventurers, were now a line of tired rich men’s sons. The Germans felt the same about the Brits and the US. The Japanese comforted themselves about their lack of manufacturing capacity for war with the thought that Americans lacked the samurai spirit.
You have to be really, really direct to break through such wishful thinking.
In the meantime, voices of pacifism…. See Orwell.
a comment about the comment suggesting the Israelis should treat world opinion with the same disdain as the Russians because showing concern only encourages attack by the righteously indignant; the odd thing is Israelis are like that, the government for some reason is not.
“Arabs have oil, but we have matches”. A wise man with a powerful message.
I’ll play the American optimist and turn the treat into an opportunity. If Israel could establish herself as the protector of the world’s oil deliveries out of the middle east against all threats and mad men, then she would enjoy the support, however cynical, of the governments of 3 or 4 billion people. Jews have a good sense of humor, and would likely chuckle at becoming the new Knights of Malta!
Damn my proof reading! Make that:
I’ll play the American optimist and turn the threat into an opportunity.
What really fuels irrational hatred of modernity in Arab countries is a growing feeling of ultimate failure. Their culture is dying, incapable both to cope with modernity and to modernize. So all these paranoid fantasies and inability to tell reality from fairy tales. To see right before their noses successfull modern Jewish country is something they can not tolerate anymore, a sore wound to their “honor”.
armchair pessimist what’s proofreading?
Bob,
Good one! I can’t even proofread my proof reading
Armchair, almost nobody is good at proofreading. It took me 2 years of very hard work, 8 hours every weekday in this trade before I became more or less professional in it.
Try proffreeding when you’re Add.
Can anyone speculate what the world will look like in 2012 if this is what happens after 16 months of Obama’s incompetent weakness?
Somebody, perhaps at Belmont Club, speculated that Iran may dare us to do something so horrible we would not do it and thus lose whatever was at issue.
One possibility would be as in the Iran-Iraq war.
Picture a battlefield with the US forces dug in on a line. Out front are minefields of scatterable mines.
The Iranians send 100,000 young boys with plastic keys (symbolizing the key to heaven) into the minefields to clear them by stepping on them.
Following that are a hundred thousand adult soldiers, trained only to move forward and fire an AK 47.
What would be the American political impact of our troops killing those helpless chumps over the space of, say, half a day in a space of, say, half a mile wide by five miles long? With our weaponry, it would be easy.
Point is, Iran has already done that. The guys in charge can certainly do it again, given the power within the country (which is not guaranteed at this date but you’d not have thought they had it back then, either).
More to the point, what would be the backlash against Israel if they did it?
Everyone has got to see this video, and email it to whoever you can.
http://hotair.com/archives/2010/06/03/video-we-con-the-world/