Corporations getting ready to dump health insurance?
Not at all sure, but they’re certainly considering it.
And why not? Suggesting that this would be a very possible result of the HCR bill was not scaremongering, it was logic. But how many people are aware of the details? And if the president and Congressional leaders lie, and the press covers for them….but I grow weary of repeating myself.
[Hat tip: Artfldgr.]
In and of itself, it wouldn’t be bad to decouple employment from health insurance, but with these clowns in DC temporarily running things…
Sadly, this is probably a feature, not a bug. Since they couldn’t get a single-payer system by democratic vote, the collapse of our employment-based system of private insurance had to be engineered somehow, and the Rube Goldberg health care pastiche that they came up with looks to be bringing that goal about sooner rather than later.
Reportedly, this is the reason Waxman dropped his hearings, where he was going to haul the CEO’s before his committee to explain their write-offs. The documents he subpoenaed, reportedly revealed this too and Waxman decided he didn’t want to chance the resultant bad publicity.
Forbes magazine estimates that if US major businesses drop health insurance and pay the fines, the cost to the Gov’t. will net out at an additional cost of $160 Billion, which of course increases the debt and deficit.
Perhaps never has a greater example of self-destructiveness or sheer incompetence been demonstrated by a political party.
Truly, the gang who couldn’t shoot straight.
Cloward/Piven. Chaos and tumult until a tyranical government just has to save us.
Steve
that’s not cloward piven…
that is an operative outside view of a Coupe…
the inside is that the fix is in so that the masses will stop when the savior calms the seas.
if it wasn’t fixed, that wouldn’t work
Perhaps never has a greater example of self-destructiveness or sheer incompetence been demonstrated by a political party.
Germany
Argentina
Rhodesia
come to mind…
Rome too.. (the later years)
The dog-that-didn’t-bark in the whole HCR debate is
that the current private health care model is breaking down, due to the aging population distribution and the ever-increasing (and mostly hidden) cross-subsidization required to support Medicare and Medicaid. In Hegelian terms, we’re in a health care ‘World Historical Moment’.
The MSM narrative is that Obama and the Democrats bought off the major health care companies with benies. In reality, the health care companies actively signed on to the Democrat HCR effort this time around in a hail-Mary attempt to save their businesses by guaranteeing additional captive subscribers. That’s why we didn’t see any ‘Harry and Louise’ ads.
I don’t think it’s going to work, since once enough companies drop insurance, the momentum to replace the ‘complicated’ exchanges with ‘simple’ single payer will be overwhelming.
The truth is about to drop that health care is not a right; the wealth of corporations is not infinite; things can always get worse; nothing is guaranteed; life is a privilege; freedom requires work.
From recent events (riots and murder in Greece), it does not appear that these truths will be welcome.
At least everyone who is not a partisan democrat knows that the anti side was telling the truth already. Which means, now the fight is on to the democrats.
The leftists won’t care and will use this to push for more control.
Everyone else, well, it’s more drip drip drip of facts that show their position was wrong.
Just recorded an interview with Dr. Lyle H. Rossiter Jr, author of “The Liberal Mind: The Psychological Causes of
Political Madness” for my show tomorrow, and I wanted you to know that he mentions your blog on the show enthusiastically. I will include ‘neoneocon.com’ in the show notes tomorrow as well.
curiosity has been piqued
“Cloward/Piven. Chaos and tumult until a tyrannical government just has to save us.”
Not going to happen. That is, not the attempt but the successful imposition of a coup. The left would love to impose it and might well try but that way lies the guillotine. 175 million people in opposition is too great a barrier. And despite claims to the contrary, the US military is not going to support a coup.
I’ve been saying (like O.B.) for a good many years that if we could do one thing, and one thing only, to fix the health care system, we would sever the connection between health insurance and employment. I absolutely did not mean that the best thing to do would be to replace private, employer-subsidized insurance with government provision and control. Unlike O.B., I’m not so sanguine about its being a temporary condition.
It strikes me that these guys are employing an old cowboy maneuver: They’re effectively herding the entire country into a single direction by cutting off alternative routes. That direction leads right into–get ready for it–the government’s maw. There will be no way out. Not many want to go there, but alternatives are being eliminated.
Artfl is correct, I think. What we’re looking at is the outside of a coup (at least that’s what I think he meant, not a Coupe–which is a style of car! 🙂 ) I recall that Huxley was dismissive, even contemptuously so, of people here who thought we might be watching such a thing in action. But Huxley has decamped to parts unknown, and the motion in Washington continues, inexorably. Whether or not we can stop it depends almost entirely on large numbers of Americans seeing it for what it is, being free to say so, and being willing to do something to stop it.
Geoffrey, given enough time, Obama will have it set so that the military is not required. Remember his civilian national security force that he wants, and says should be as large, well-funded and powerful as the military? These guys have been planning to be where they are for a good while, and they aren’t wasting any time. I expect he’ll be making moves in the national security force direction at some point soon, and such a force, if he is successful in establishing it, will be loyal only to him. He will have been its father.
Nice.
BTW, I hope that way does lie the guillotine. I’d love to see some of these heads roll. Or–rope. Tar. Feathers. Rails.
The first act of the coup (unconstitutional deposition of a government) was a coup (a quick, brilliant, and highly successful act.) We call it another name. The Stimulus.
It did three things:
1) Got O-sham-a elected.
2) Financed the coup.
3) Created (or better, ripened, or better yet, capitalized on) the future emergency for the final coup, ie., debt.
“”Remember his civilian national security force that he wants””
I get a picture of Crips and Bloods in Armani suits driving around in black Lincoln Towncars with spinner rims.
SteveH:
Yikes. Crips and Bloods.
Ugh.
It’s coming. Get ready.
Again, not to discount the danger, nor to dismiss the need for vigilance but Obama is not going to succeed (should he try) to create a civilian national security force, loyal only to him. Then seize power during a crisis with elections suspended and set-up the political concentration camps that would be needed.
European style socialism? Sure.
A Marxist coup? Not going to happen. Not in this country.
Nor is Al Sharpton’s ‘social justice’, where everyone has the same amount of income and assets going to happen, no matter how many times the race card of victimhood is played.
Anything Obama might do has to be within the limits of what they can argue is Constitutional. The minute he tries something which is undeniably unconstitutional he creates a constitutional crisis and that he can’t win. At the least he’d be impeached, at the worst tried for treason.
What is possible is financial collapse, attempts to nationalization the major industry’s ala the utility companies, imposition of a VAT tax and universal single payer health care. Which is quite bad enough.
Dictator Obama and one party rule?
Nope. Only in our nightmares.
What is far more likely is the political guillotine of the mid-terms with Obama instantly becoming a lame-duck Pres. and his rejection in 2012.
That is far more likely because Obama and the Dems have 6 months to try to shove down the American public’s throat radical legislation which will piss off people even more.
They are digging their own grave and in doing that they can only awaken even more people to their true nature.
Next to go will be Obama’s personal popularity.
He’s had his run of luck and the MSM is increasingly ineffective in covering for him.
In so many areas he’s walking a tightrope, most notably in foreign affairs.
Iran will get the bomb on his watch. He’s going to pull out of Afghanistan and the Taliban will take over on his watch with Al Qaeda training camps reinstated.
Terrorist attacks are accelerating and before 2012 we’ll be successfully attacked and then he’s another Carter, judged incompetent, ineffective and seen as unacceptably radical.
The link between employment and health insurance always seemed ridiculous. My husband and I were both insured, and therefore I was overinsured. I would much preferred to have been able to select the particular insurance that I needed, rather than having the unneeded insurance count as part of my pay.
On the other hand, it was clear that both of us needed to be protected against being dropped, once we had certain illnesses.
There is a definite need for the government to protect the consumer against being dropped, but government healthcare is not the way to go.
Right now, both my husband and I have excellent coverage, which we pay a lot for. I don’t want to lose my coverage for the Great Unknown of Obamacare.
BTW, for those of you who think that I’m looking at this question too narrowly, I’ll tell you that I never had any serious illnesses until age 63. With age comes certain illnesses. That’s the way it is.
I used to think that I would be young forever. If you think that, dear reader, lotsa luck! 😉
Of course they’ll drop the insurance coverage! why wouldn’t they? Financially, they’d save a mint.
What amazes me is why the insurance companies were so blind to this obvious calculation. And how they EVER thought they could trust Comrade Obama. Fools. /spit
And if you like government housing, you’ll love gubmint hellcare. Only more so: it will kill you.
A Marxist coup? Not going to happen. Not in this country.
really? Well i can tell you the mechanics.. and you and no one else has refuted them.
what happens when the food is given out by the state?
what happens when a soldier has to decide to starve his wife and children or shoot and make the best of it?
you all like to imagine it wont happen, but you imagine the events as an extension of your life as if your life living is not changed too.
those most likely to sacrifice the family, will be in south america, or europe… not the US…
i can work out how to make em do it..
all anyone has is a empty assertion of blind believe based on nothing as refutation.
the problem with this attitude is that it prevents proper seriousness. it relaxes the mind and spirit to not act when acting is easy (years ago), and to not act when acting is hard…
why bother protecting the state… it cant change.
after all, what your saying is that the most fragile rarest of states that has allowed freedom is so robust, that it can stand all comers for eternity.
if you don’t believe that it will stand for eternity
then your other assertion is wrong, because it would contradict the inevitable…
As I and others have (essentially) said before, never THINK it can’t happen here.
Artfldgr, I don’t think things will get as bad as your scenario of The Starving Soldier. Most of the largest bases are in Red States. The people who live in the country are conservative, have guns, and contribute a disproportionate share of the personnel to the armed forces (especially the army), and AND THEY PRODUCE THE FOOD AND ENERGY. They would be remarkably hard to coerce. Shortages of food and fuel would create riots against the people who run city governments. The liberals live under the volcano, which partly explains why they are wracked by anxiety most of the time.
That’s not to say that things won’t get very bad, or that the progressives won’t try to grab as much power as they can. It’s what they do. It’s what they live for.
I am ashamed to take the bait again, but it was a short comment, so I read it before I could stop.
Artfl – you say that no one has refuted you. Then you write: “what happens when the food is given out by the state?
what happens when a soldier has to decide to starve his wife and children or shoot and make the best of it?”
Well yeah, if that were happening, or anything remotely close to it, then I would be concerned that your dire predictions might have some weight. But nothing like that is happening. If Senators started shooting each other, if if Missouri merged with Kansas, if pigs could fly, I would gladly reevaluate my position. You have listed a “what if” for which there is no evidence.
I am plenty upset with how things are going in this country. But your dark mutterings that it’s all going to happen as you envision it, and we stupid people just don’t see, don’t see, isn’t persuasive.
Having been down this road before, with you and others, I know what happens next: you create an exhausting list of terrible things that are happening behind the scenes that you take as confirmation that all is coming to pass as you foresee. But none of it relates back to government doling out all the food or soldiers shooting to provide for their children. Nonetheless, you, being wiser, know that it is all connected. And we just don’t see.
I don’t mean to just kick artfl to disagree with him, but other readers here have to be reminded from time to time of a harsh reality. I have these conversations every week with paranoid people as part of earning my daily bread. I don’t say that artfl is dangerous or mean, or anything but wrong, with no insight and no ability to understand contrary information. Those are symptoms, not wisdom. The tight circle that cannot admit outside information is not a reliable source. A certain amount of free-floating paranoia is a good thing in a tribe, as it keeps everyone a bit alert. But that is not evidence that what the paranoid focuses on is true. They latch on to true things as they fly by, and can often recite huge quantities of acquired data. But they are people who summarize a day by describing in detail the hour between 1PM and 2PM. Your references to night, sunrise, or sunset, are discarded from consideration. And if anyone will only listen to their exquisite understanding of 1:37-1:40PM, we will finally get it and know they have been right all along.
GK Chesterton noted long ago that a madman is not someone who has lost his reason, but one who has lost everything but his reason – sense of proportion, ability to consider alternate hypotheses, insight, understanding of others. They have tight circles of logic which continue infinitely, entirely sensible to one locked on the inside but immediately recognisable as small, cramped pictures of reality once one steps out on to the balcony and gets some fresh air.
It can happen here. Of course it can if we let it. What has happened so far has happened because we let it.
Whether or not we will let much more happen, I can’t tell. I do believe if we have the resolve and committment we could, after much sacrifice, restore this once great republic.
Many people’s resolve is set: We refuse to be a country divided. We are in a war not because we went to war but because war was declared against us. We refuse denial. We refuse non-participation. In fact, participation is our directive. Participate in government, education, media and entertainment.
It won’t change overnight because our participation is really in planting new seeds.
“”Remember his civilian national security force that he wants””
I am thinking he already has the basic authority in the “health care” bill. It currently states that he can nationalize doctors and call a state’s National Guard to government service. Purposes unclear.
Odd things for a health care bill.
Recently I traveled to another town and one night I went to a Burger King for dinner. I looked at the people in line and then then menu. I then imagined a calorie count next to each item on the menu. I came to the conclusion that it will be meaningless and the only way to assure that the customers “make good choices” will be to have food police in each facility. Either that or close the place down and open government sanctioned eateries,
Michael Says:
“customers “make good choices” will be to have food police in each facility. Either that or close the place down and open government sanctioned eateries”
That or tell people they will not get their [government] healthcare if they’re overweight…
Health insurance is only tied to employment because of government wage controls back in WWII. In fact, most of the problems with the current system are because of government, like Medicare and Medicaid. Medicaid pays us less than it costs to dispense the prescription. But I know I’m preaching to the choir.
The only benefit for me is that after the corporation I work for drops our benefits, the liberal Obama voters that I work with will feel the pain too.
Artflgdr,
It’s clear that we will have to agree, to disagree. AVI, in responding, perfectly described my thoughts as well.
Michael,
The health care bill does not state that Obama can nationalize doctors.
It states that he can expand the program that some doctors participate in, which addresses national and regional medical emergency needs during a declared state of emergency and, that when ‘called up’, compliance by the doctors is not voluntary. Doctors can resign from the program whenever they wish. Plus doctors are not the ‘storm troopers’ of our fears.
There are plenty of real threats without adding presently unfounded ones to our concerns.
For the others who also see a Marxist coup – or any other kind of coup – imminent, or at least likely in the foreseeable future:
Being able to imagine something is not the same thing as it being a possible event, and even less is it evidence of a likely event. Those nations which have had coups – how are we like them, specifically? I am not accepting reasoning that says well, if you extend this thread out indefinitely, it could happen. You have to show that it is likely to extend out as we go forward. And note: few things in history extend out unchanged for very long. Few short-term trends are long-term ones.
We are in a system that has never been entirely free-market or entirely free anything, just freer than other nations. 1% losses of our freedoms or our money are bad things; cumulatively losses over time are bad things. But going from, say, 73% free in the 1950’s to 65% free now does not make us a banana republic. It just means we are headed in the wrong direction. The idea that overnight we are suddenly going to dip to 34% is without foundation. Imagining how it might happen does not make it so. Western Europe is more socialist and bureaucratised than we are, and thus many of their superior “quality of life” elements are spurious. But they aren’t Cambodia under Pol Pot. They aren’t Cuba.
How much do you really think we are like Russia in 1916? Or China in 1947? What are the startling new similarities we should be aware of?
Again.
when i am short.. you guys cant see what i am saying. when i am longer, you dont read me.
you have not refuted me… all you did is say… i cant work out anything that could lead to what the condition is, so there must not be anything.
Well yeah, if that were happening, or anything remotely close to it, then I would be concerned that your dire predictions might have some weight. But nothing like that is happening.
here, AVI cant get the temporals right. we are talking near future… not now…
basically i am trying to describe a method to refute the point that it cant happen here.
a long while back, no one believed that obama was a progressive marxist? a communist?
everyone refuted me in the same poor way.. the above is not a refutation.
Being able to imagine something is not the same thing as it being a possible event, and even less is it evidence of a likely event. Those nations which have had coups – how are we like them, specifically? I am not accepting reasoning that says well, if you extend this thread out indefinitely, it could happen. You have to show that it is likely to extend out as we go forward. And note: few things in history extend out unchanged for very long. Few short-term trends are long-term ones.
here we are again…
way back when.. i said so much that is happening now.. betsy remembers… others gave me a big hard time that obama was a marxist. i had him pegged from before the election..
the problem is that you guys are cherry picking evidence, and refusing to concede that it is… then your saying if i cant tell you the exact way there, i am wrong.
well… want to go back and start reading those posts you didnt read?
Being able to imagine something is not the same thing as it being a possible event, and even less is it evidence of a likely event.
and imagining that facts are imagination, doesn’t change them…
i am one of the ONLY people here who ahve had this pegged from day one, no doubt, easy as pie to tell.
if i was operating from imagination, how come i have been the most right, and everyone else is following slowly later on?
AVI… what you dont get is that your numbers are way off.
Remember tatyanas comment?
paraphrased (hope she corrects me)
that today its more like soviet world she left than when she left it!!!
you dont notice the private references we make? do you? the inside comment or word that we use to let each other know.. how the people with family experience or personal experience, are singing the same tune..
and its only people like you who are telling us what its like… which then is imagination?
How much do you really think we are like Russia in 1916? Or China in 1947? What are the startling new similarities we should be aware of?
never ever said tahat..
shows how much you pay attention to over a years worth of discussions and facts
we are like germany.. not russia, not china..
i have said that from before obama was elected.
so why bring up 1917 russia, where my family helped put lenin in power? or china, where my wifes famiky is from?
the means is like germany… the ends are like china and russia.
there are no startling similarities you would understand!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
your reference point is movies, the liberals education, and what?
do you know all the artwork and symbolism in front of you already? would you know a heffalump if you saw one?
want to know what it feels like on this side?
like i am playing chess, and i have just told the opponent that its mate in 10 moves..
now everyone says no way.. they cant see it
and if they cant see it, then it doesnt exist
we are all equal right? so i cant see things you cant, so i must be lying or wrong, or imagining. right?
THATS how far we have gone!
we have gone so far that we think socialism is the answer…
we have gone so far as to elect an extreme socialist… (after losing how many MILLIONS preventing it?)
did you read the planks of the communists and compare how many?
did you read the soviet constitution and compare that with the goals
our president has his own logo…
his daughers are named after pushkin, and his biographer..
they are running up debt and printing money to the point of hyper inflation.
if food costs only tripled (which is not hyper inflation), would the welfare people be able to buy it?
when people are not buying food will it be delivered? if the president freezes the prices of food, will the stores stay open.
its chess in 10 moves (if we dont play right)
deny it, and you will not work it out
work it out, and you cant deny it
The health care bill does not state that Obama can nationalize doctors.
are people really this obtuse?
you create a law which bankrupts doctors as it cant pay for the work or supplies they use.
so they quit being doctors. now what?
its like i mix all the ingredients of a cake, and tell you its a cake. but you cant go frrom that through a chain of events that would lead to the end result.
when doctors cant earn, will they stay doctors?
so AFTER SOME TIME PASSES and the premises of the law and other things flower outward… the IMPLICATIONS will become clearer to you
and thats what i am talking about IMPLICATIONS of whats going on all added up together.
what is the implication of a debt load at near 100% of GDP
with the lender collapsing as its market cant borrow to buy
with currency being printed so fast its not worth 1/3 of what it was before obama (and has yet to diffuse)
with medical now costing a lot more… and with doctors unable to stay in business if they stay doctors
with hacing to tell 47% of the population, that we cant feed them any more… as we dont have the mone to make out welfare checks.
with the cost of feuld going to go up a lot, and a vat, everything will go up in price
do you rememver what it was like when we didnt get our food from around the world.
i do… i remember a much smaller selection of types of food… you ONLY got them in their season in america if they grew here.
so when shipping goes up from fuel, you can forget about a lot of things.
nstead of pink blossoms and green shoots along Highway 5 in April, vast spans from Bakersfield to Fresno sit bone-dry. Brown grass, dead orchards and lifeless grapevine skeletons stretch for miles for lack of water. For every fallow field, there’s a sign that farmers have placed alongside the highway: “No Water = No Food,” “No Water = No Jobs,” “Congress Created Dust Bowl.”
Locals say it’s been like this for two years now, as Congress and bureaucrats cite “drought,” “global warming” and “endangered species” to deny water to this $37 billion breadbasket through arbitrary “environmental” quotas.
they have food lines
they are not growing food
all it tookwas some regualtions
37 billion in food gone…
and of course food is not going to be a problem.
Whatever the excuse, 75% of the fresh water that has historically irrigated California is now being washed to the open sea. For farmers in the southwest part of the valley, last year’s cutoff amounted to 90%.
“It’s pretty hard to keep crops alive at 10%,” says Jim Jasper, who runs a 62-year-old almond farm in Newman that employs 170. “That’s one irrigation, and trees take 10 to 12 over the growing season from March to October.” Almond trees cost $8,000 per acre and take six years to start producing, so farmers reserved their 10% allocation for mature trees first.
The cutoff didn’t kill just trees, however. It also devastated the area’s economy. Unemployment in some valley towns has shot up to 45%. Mortgage defaults are on the rise, and food lines are lengthening.
we already ahve food lines
47% of the population is already on food rations..
(welfare)
and you guys dont think that food will be a facilitator of control?
food as control goes with socialism
stalin starved the people (8 million 1 winter)
mao, millions over the years
castro? hows chavez doing on food?
Much like organized criminals in big-city fish markets who see to it that product spoils when kickbacks aren’t forthcoming, Washington’s pols are now using their ability to turn water on and off as a coercion tool.
Take the three congressmen who represent the valley and how they were pressured to vote for President Obama’s health care bill. It didn’t go without notice by farmers like Jasper that the 5% water allocations announced in February for all three congressional districts were lifted to 25% for the two whose Democratic representatives, Jim Costa of Fresno and Dennis Cardoza of Modesto, switched their votes on health reform from “no” to “aye.”
Devin Nunes, a Republican from Tulare, wouldn’t sell his vote, and parts of his district had to make do with the 5% allotment.
its pretty hard to tell me the process cant happen here, when its already happening..
they are first using it on congressmen
they now know, go with obama, and you benifit
go against, and they dont care if we starve
So, there is not the remotest chance that you are even 1% wrong?
Just as I said.
AVI,
why must i be uncertain to be right?
your basically saying because i am sure of myself i must be wrong…
which if i follow the logic, your unsure i am wrong, so you must be right.
yup… leftism has no effect…
[by the way. when your right, your right, and no amout of humble pretending you could be wrong will make it wrong or right… it just a fake act required by people who have to have an emotional reason to feel your right.
go ahead… go back and check..
so far i had everything pegged.
empiricism is based on reality
and study history, and have experience
and you would know too.
Sooooooo many similarities, family lineages, legal copying, and so on.
the problem is that your ignorant of all those facts and you wont let me teach you, nor will any one else.
that is, you dont read the long posts, and so you dont learn the 100 things that are the same
here is one.
disparate outcome. it wasnt called that, but the nazis used the SAME arguments that our groups are using today.
in another thread i showed how our leaders scchool czars doctrons and ideas go back to a particular women in weimar.
my family was there..
where was your family…
my family later were conscripted..
latvian conscripts became WAFFEN SS
(which were not part of the ideology – see history)
so maybe, just maybe, i learned from what people?
I didnt learn from Zinn..
i didnt learn from some teacher in high school
I learned from ex latvian corps men
DID you ever bother to look things up?
VI SS Army Corps (latvian)
VI SS Army Corps (latvian) or VI. SS-Freiwilligen-Armeekorps (lettisches) (German) was a unit of the Waffen SS during World War II. It was formed in October 1943, to command the Latvian Waffen SS divisions. It fought in the northern sector of the Eastern Front as part of the 18th Army. They were part of the Army Group North until early 1945, when it was subordinated to Army Group Kurland. In October 1944, they were encircled by the Red Army offensives and spent the remainder of the war in the Courland Pocket, until they surrendered to the Red Army at end of the war
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
The Soviet 2nd Baltic (northern sector) and 1st Baltic Fronts (southern sector) commenced a blockade, precipitating the German defence of the Courland perimeter during Soviet attempts to reduce it. Serving with the 2nd Baltic Front’s 22nd Army was the Latvian 130th Rifle Corps that included two rifle divisions in which served a large number of Latvians in their ranks who would soon be facing their opposites in the Latvian 19th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
After May 9, 1945, according to Russian records, 146,000 German and Latvian troops were taken prisoner, including 28 generals and 5,083 high-ranking officers [4], and taken to camps in the USSR interior and imprisoned for years[3]. The Soviets detained all males between the ages of 16 and 60, and conducted widespread deforestation campaigns, burning vast tracts of forest, to flush out resisters.[4] More recent scholarship puts the number of German soldiers who surrendered at 181,000 including their commander Generaloberst Hipert[3].
Members of the Latvian Legion who surrendered along with the Germans or were captured were treated as traitors under the pretext that Latvia was part of the Soviet Union and summarily executed. Some of those who escaped continued fighting the Soviets as Forest Brothers.[3]
the survivors are where i learned my details as to how things worked..
The Forest Brothers (also: Brothers of the Forest, Forest Brethren; Forest Brotherhood; Estonian: metsavennad, Latvian: meža brÄļi, Lithuanian: miÅ¡ko broliai) were Estonian, Latvian, and Lithuanian partisans who waged guerrilla warfare against Soviet rule during the Soviet invasion and occupation of the three Baltic states during, and after, World War II. Similar anti-Soviet resistance groups fought against Soviet and communist rule in Bulgaria, Poland, Romania and western Ukraine.
The Soviet Army occupied the independent Baltic states in 1940—1941 and, after a period of German occupation, again in 1944—1945. As Stalinist repression intensified over the following years, 50,000 residents of these countries used the heavily-forested countryside as a natural refuge and base for armed anti-Soviet resistance.
and finally… two more points..
one, so you dont call me a nazi
we were the guards at neuremburg
Generally the Waffen-SS was not directly involved in the Holocaust, as the separately organised Allgemeine SS was responsible for the death camps, although many members of it and the SS-Totenkopfverbé¤nde subsequently became members of the Waffen-SS, forming the initial core of the Totenkopf Division.
It must also be said that the Latvian and Estonian Waffen-SS divisions cannot be compared to the German Waffen-SS units. The Latvian Legion’s attachment to the SS was strictly a formality. Latvian soldiers were not members of the Nazi party or of the SS organisation. On September 1, 1950, the American Displaced Persons Commission stated very clearly that “the Waffen-SS units of the Baltic States (the Baltic Legions) are to be seen as units that stood apart and were different from the German SS in terms of goals, ideologies, operations and constitution, and the Commission does not, therefore, consider them to be a movement that is hostile to the government of the United States (a letter from a member of the Displaced Persons Commission, Harry Rosenfield, to Latvia’s authorised charge d’affaires in Washington, JÅ«lijs Feldmanis, 12 September 1950, quoted in LatvieÅ¡u leÄ£ions. Varoņi, nacisti vai upuri? No Amerikas Savienoto Valstu NacionÄlÄ arhÄ«va kara noziegumu izmeklÄ“Å¡anas materiÄliem 1945.-1950 (The Latvian Legion: Heroes, Nazis or Victims: War crime investigation materials from the National Archives of the United States of America, 1945-1950), RÄ«ga, 1988, 103 pp.).
ok…so we were not nazis..
very much not
The 15th SS Latvian Division was the most decorated foreign volunteer division of the Waffen SS winning 13 knight’s crosses; more than any non-German Legion.
Latvians were well known in europe, unknown here.
these people hated both the nazis and soviets.
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ok… AVI…THATS where i learned HOW things work… not when, or what… but HOW…
how is the part that they leave out. or havent you noticed? they tell you when a coupe happens, they tell you who, maybe other facts.
they NEVER tell you how they work operationally, as if to teach you HOW.
So the fact that there ARE methods? no i am not wrong
that was what the point was.. one said it wont happen, and i said it could happen as there are methods.
and your still not refuting that controlling food, will control people.
thats my premise… if you can control food, and restrict it based on political will, you can control even the good people.
you and no one has refuted that.
I am basically saying, that they are going to keep nationalizing… why? because thats what nazi meant… duh…
As i said, my famly was there… nazi was slang short for NAtionalizers..
they basically kept nationalizing or taking control of various industries and places, which then gave them control over medicine (where people died in the hospitals and htey lied to famuily) , and food control through things like, say welfare cards
you realize that 47% of the population already has their food rationed..
anyway.
they nationalized auto, insurance, health.
whats next?
nationalizing your retirement accounts by seizing them
In Chapter 3 of the Annual Report on the Middle Class released in February by Vice President Biden and the White House Task Force on the Middle Class, the Obama administration calls for enhancing the “retirement options” for the middle class by imposing “new regulations to improve the transparency and adequacy of 401(k) retirement savings.”
The plan, as sketched in the 43-page document, calls for the creation of something called “Guaranteed Retirement Accounts” (GRAs). Biden slyly shifts the onus for the idea through weasel words typical of the federal government: “Some have suggested the creation of Guaranteed Retirement Accounts (GRAs), which would give workers a simple way to invest a portion of their retirement savings in an account that was free of inflation and market risk, and in some versions under discussion, would guarantee a specified real return above the rate of inflation.”
please let me know where YOU learned HOW things were FACILITATED
These accounts would be “free of inflation and market risk” because they would be under the direct and absolute control of the federal bureaucracy. There would be no risk because the funds would no longer be moored to the free market and subject to the fluctuations thereof. Rather, the retirement funds of every hard-working American dependent on a 401(k) for their retirement security would be nationalized and made subject to the whims and will of the executive branch.
Coinciding with the publication of the report described above, the Obama White House, together with the Departments of Labor and Treasury, issued a so-called “Request for Information” calling for a detailed analysis of the pros and cons of the “annuitization” of individual 401(k)s. The scheme was set forth in a set of “Proposed Rules” published on February 2, 2010 in the Federal Register.
The document reads in part, “While defined contribution plans have some strengths relative to defined benefit plans, participants in defined contribution plans bear the investment risk because there is no promise by the employer as to the adequacy of the account balance that will be available or the income stream that can be provided after retirement.” And furthermore, “The Agencies are considering whether it would be appropriate for them to take future steps for them to facilitate access to, and use of, lifetime income or other arrangements designed to provide designed to provide a stream of income after retirement.”
The upshot of that clunky prose is that the Obama administration believes that employers cannot be relied upon to adequately manage the 401(k) retirement accounts it provides for their employees, therefore the federal government will relieve them of that responsibility and take sole discretionary control of those funds, thus eliminating the risk of mismanagement. In other words, the Obama administration is planning to divert the “stream of income after retirement” and channel it right through Washington, D.C.
Artfl: I can’t rule out what you are describing simply based on the fact that would never in a million years have predicted that Obama could possibly become President and what that says about the critical thinking skills of the American public, as well as the abysmal skills of his opposition when it came to making the case against electing him.
People like Obama have always been trying to take control of the U.S. for a hundred years or more. That’s nothing new. What’s new and shocking to me is not that Obama came along… people like him were always there… but that so many things came together to allow him to become the most powerful man in the world, not the least of which was a nearly literal hypnosis of large swaths of the voting public.
I don’t resent people wanting to vote liberal, although I disagree with them. I resent the fact that people thought this liberal, whom you claim to have recognized was an out-and-out communist in his beliefs, as did I, even before his election, was someone appropriate to run this country, ignoring clue after clue after clue. Any one of a dozen or more facts about Obama would have completely neutralized a Republican candidate but somehow never failed to penetrate the thick (and dare I say diabolical) fog of charisma, vacuous rhetoric and plain old deceit he and his handlers scrupulously built around himself, with a fully complicit and cooperating media.