Why was Hasan still in the military?
Michelle Malkin has a good round-up of articles about Hasan and the Fort Hood shooting, especially as Islam relates to the event.
Short version: it does. And no, not all Moslems are terrorists, or even the majority. But yes, Islam is a religion that tends to foster and promote these sorts of acts, and with a history of proselytizing through armed conflict.
But what I’m wondering is this: why, with the huge number of red flags raised by Hasan’s prior behavior and remarks (supporting jihadist suicide bombers, for example), was Hasan still in the military? Why was he about to be posted to a war zone, as well? Why was he still practicing psychiatry? I’d like to know more about what attempts were made by the military to investigate him, what the findings were, and why nothing was done.
I realize that hindsight is 20/20. But we are learning things about this man that were already known to the military prior to the shooting, things that common sense dictates should have caused more of a reaction. I’m not putting the main responsibility for the deaths on the military; that responsibility is Hasan’s alone. But the sad reality is that, if we’re going to have Moslems in the service—and of course we are—we cannot let political correctness stand in the way of awareness of the possible dangers involed and appropriate preventative reaction when warranted.
[ADDENDUM: Ed Morrisey asks the exact same question.]
While we’re on the subject of political correctness — why, in the name of God, was a U.S. Army base a “gun-free zone”, in which such a tragedy could happen?
As I understand it, the gunman used two handguns to murder 13 people and injure over 30 others. By my arithmetic, that means he had to reload several times, and he had to squeeze off each shot individually. 12 of the dead, and no doubt many of the injured, were military personnel; one of them with a sidearm could have made a difference.
I can understand why some places, e.g. mental-health clinics, might require people to check their firearms at the door. But you’d think we’d have learned our lesson from Columbine etc. — IF YOU MUST DISARM A GROUP OF PEOPLE, KEEP SOME ARMED GOOD GUYS AROUND TO PROTECT THEM.
No doubt the situation is more complex than it seems; they always are. But I’m afraid there are more than enough snafus to go around here.
respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline
Silly, he was still in the military because he wasn’t gay.
neo: My thought is that the military did understand that Hasan was “off” and wanted to get rid of him.
I believe they were trying to do so in the classic manner of large organizations these days: moving him around, giving him a poor performance review, and giving him an assignment (Iraq) that they knew he wouldn’t like.
Obviously it didn’t occur to Hasan’s superiors that he would resign in such a public way….
huxley: then why were they planning to send him to Iraq, as reported? And if he’s pro-suicide bomber, they should have anticipated the possibility of violence.
Daniel in Brookline: my understanding is that there were police and security guards around, and that one of them took him down. I believe I heard they are considering requiring a larger number of security.
neo: As I said — to encourage Hasan to resign. Obviously he would not want to go.
As to anticipating the possibility of violence: “It was a bad call, Ripley, a bad call…”
See http://www.moviesoundclips.net/sound.php?id=47, second down.
It is now almost impossible for the military to get rid of ANYone unless that person commits a felony. No one can be fired for religious or political beliefs, no matter how anti-American or dangerous. The military bureaucracy is stuck in a whirling black hole of political correctness. I also agree with huxley above.
And I’m not surprised Ft. Hood happened. My dad (30 year vet) emailed me this soon after 9/11: “Wait 10 years and American muslim soldiers will be killing their fellows instead of the enemy.” I kept that email and forwarded it to him yesterday.
But what I’m wondering is this: why, with the huge number of red flags raised by Hasan’s prior behavior and remarks (supporting jihadist suicide bombers, for example), was Hasan still in the military?
Having served in the Army as officer and enlisted for 18 years, I feel qualified to weigh in in these issues. Furthermore, I think anyone with military service will recognize the veracity of my comments:
He was still in the Army because Psychiatrists are expensive and hard to get to join the Army. Short of an event like this, he would be retained indefinitely.
Why was he about to be posted to a war zone, as well?
I’m sure it went something like this:
Med detachment CO: ” We’re having trouble with one of the shrinks. He’s antagonizing soldiers about serving in Iraq and seems to identify with his fellow Muslims. He sez he feels harassed….”
Colonel Dopey: “Yeah, he identifies with Muslims? Well, I know where there are a lot of Muslims for him to identify with. Might do him some good. Might make him stand up in the stirrups, lean forward in the foxhole, ride to the sound of the g–
Med det CO: “Yes, sir…. Thank you, sir….”
“Why was he still practicing psychiatry?”
‘Cuz aside from acute medicine, Army medicine sucks and is full of rejects who could never keep their license in the ‘real world’. It’s not like there is a line of psychiatrists and doctors trying to get in the Army…..
I’d like to know more about what attempts were made by the military to investigate him, what the findings were, and why nothing was done.
They’d better not investigate a Muslim serving on active duty! Colonel Dopey will have their balls for an Equal Opportunity violation! No one was willing to pointlessly throw away their career to investigate Major Jihad and it wouldn’t have done any good anyhow.
Can you imagine the Senate Hearings when Major Jihad goes to his Senator after he gets kicked out of the Army
“just for being a Muslim psychiatrist? Especially ‘in the wake of’ all the PTSD cases from killing Muslim women and children in George Bush’s illegal wars?”
Oh, John Kerry could relive his Glory Days again with that. Can you imagine? With the Don’t ask Don’t tell issue simmering? With numbskulls like Hy Rosen looking to crap on the Army for anything anyhow?
Traitor Hasan (that has a ring doesn’t it?) was retained on active duty because the beaureacratic impact of firing him would be worse than anything he might do, including this.
Now because of this act, soldiers won’t be allowed to keep firearms in their homes and will undergo (more) hours of Muslim sensitivity training.
Both of which fit with ‘The Narrative’ anyhow. Just ask Hy Rosen.
But what I’m wondering is this: why, with the huge number of red flags raised by Hasan’s prior behavior and remarks (supporting jihadist suicide bombers, for example), was Hasan still in the military?
the feminist (communist) doctrine of equality
(and some are more equal)
the answer depends on where you stand on the spectrum. the intresting thing to note is that where you stand doesnt change the outcome, just the reason.
if your on the left, and useful idiot. its not fair to oppress islamics. all oppression must end and in the absence of actual harm (not potential of harm) we can do nothing.
so that is PC angle as applied to average people who are applying a mish mosh of old style rule of law, and neo logic (not logic of neo).
to the person who is a fellow traveler, they will not stop as he is fighting the good cause answering the question of the west. they know that islam is controlled by mother russia, the heart of socialism.
“The goal of socialism is communism.” Vladimir Lenin
they know this, and they apply this. and they know hegal. and to them they are a part of helping the west meet the east and out of that will come a new synthesis. however, unlike natural synthesis, this is a perverted form, where they try to create the outcome of the union by design. a form of creating the rule of might makes right, then cheating to make sure your might wins.
so they see the population as lumpen prols, and elite, and so the middle class must be divided. those who are elite should have risen by now, and whats left are to be removed. they are to be those who have no rights, or class. and to whom the royals can do waht they wish. a sadists utopia to replace the utopia of goodness we were making that was oppressing them more and more and more. (heck when this started dirty pictures were bad, now teaching grade school kids how to fist analy is good. the lumpen prols have been turned into complacent victims who are previously schooled. now a wealthy pederast can have what they want. you can rape young women… go to saudi, and have smoe slaves under islam, etc)
so what they do, is all good
to the statists… they see a crisis… and a crisis thing is not cloward pivin… unless you think plagierism is creative.
“The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious and is the foundation of all totalitarian government whether Nazi or Communist.” — Sir Winston Churchill
to those who are good people… they dont want to be bad, and they have been told making judgments and all that is bad.
and then there are those who accept excuses… the ones who listen to the new argument to rediscribe things in such a way that makes pain into pleasure.
pink floyd wrote about it:
so you think you can tell
heaven from hell
blue sky from pain
these are people who can think that abortion is not eugenics. these are the majority, the reasonable peoplel who are just waiting for someoe to tell them why its ok. and so thats the story of the crazed lone man.
the crazed lone man is why AQ does double dip attacks. as i stated before. if you dont do more than one at the same time. the state will script the dialogue tothe same process that works… now we are socialists, lying is a goodness, when for certain elite ends.
and anyway, just like the islamics and their kitman, soviets and communists and others think its fine to lie to non believers. which is why islam was changed by germany to be racist… and then was cahnged again by stalin… their religion now parallels the ideologies points in a different wrapper.
so after fish 1 gets rid of fish 2, fish 3 will wipe the floor with fish 1, and voila… all are under fish 1.
[see the fightinf fish scene from james bond]
oh.. and the new hate crimes law tells everyone where the writing on the wall is taking them.
Out of the corner of my eye I just watched a jaw-dropping Army news conference on Fox. The general (in charge of Ft. Hood, I guess) was treating this as an incident of PTSD. He actually said something like “We’re initiating a program to build resiliency into our helping personnel.” Then the whole thing devolved into a discussion of “stress” and the elevated suicide rate in the armed forces. Resiliency? Suicide?
I was hopping up and down and screaming at the TV.
Evidence of gang culture and gang activity in the military is increasing so much an FBI report calls it “a threat to law enforcement and national security.” The signs are chilling: Marines in gang attire on Parris Island; paratroopers flashing gang hand signs at a nightclub near Ft. Bragg; infantrymen showing-off gang tattoos at Ft. Hood.
“It’s obvious that many of these people do not give up their gang affiliations,” said Hunter Glass, a retired police detective in Fayetteville, North Carolina, the home of Ft. Bragg and the 82nd Airborne. He monitors gang activity at the base and across the military.
“If we weren’t in the middle of fighting a war, yes, I think the military would have a lot more control over this issue,” Glass said. “But with a war going on, I think it’s very difficult to do.”
Gang activity clues are appearing in Iraq and Afghanistan, too. Gang graffiti is sprayed on blast walls — even on Humvees. Kilroy — the doodle made famous by U.S. soldiers in World War II — is here, but so is the star emblem of the Gangster Disciples.
and this add more to the mix that few know or discuss… its not pc
A decade after the Pentagon declared a zero-tolerance policy for racist hate groups, recruiting shortfalls caused by the war in Iraq have allowed “large numbers of neo-Nazis and skinhead extremists” to infiltrate the military, according to a watchdog organization.
The Southern Poverty Law Center, which tracks racist and right-wing militia groups, estimated that the numbers could run into the thousands, citing interviews with Defense Department investigators and reports and postings on racist Web sites and magazines.
“We’ve got Aryan Nations graffiti in Baghdad,” the group quoted a Defense Department investigator as saying in a report to be posted today on its Web site, http://www.splcenter.org. “That’s a problem.”
[…]
The groups are being abetted, the report said, by pressure on recruiters, particularly for the Army, to meet quotas that are more difficult to reach because of the growing unpopularity of the war in Iraq.
The report quotes Scott Barfield, a Defense Department investigator, saying, “Recruiters are knowingly allowing neo-Nazis and white supremacists to join the armed forces, and commanders don’t remove them from the military even after we positively identify them as extremists or gang members.”
nothing like giving real military training to the variouis groups and factions seeking an end to the US… (or at least raping her for all she has).
that way, when things blow up soon… the outcome will be so nasty, they will call for military power..
that is why they already asked and now stationed 400k troops in the US.
The Pentagon has approached Congress to grant the Secretary of Defense the authority to post almost 400,000 military personnel throughout the United States in times of emergency or a major disaster.
they know what the ills will cause in the population.
they have learned a long time ago.
empower the nutties, the crazies, the fringe.
they will become traitors and tear their own homes apart.
then when you move in, and without the organization of the smart and not fringe, they are easy to remove,.
two birds with one stone.
you get the roaches to come out, and attack and drive the good out… then exterminate the roaches, and move in.
maos thousand petals and lenins liberalization, and prage spring… all the same tactic.
if the libs think that they are going to be on top when things turn, they are sorely mistaken.
the new regime knows that they are traitors, and have the ability to organize since they tauight them. you cant remove such teaching, and so they remove those carying the knowlege,
so hassan is not the only worry
by the way, the guy that makes sandwhiches at the deli is a kidnapper, and a rapist. how do i know? he has the hand marks that declare his specialty… with an 13 on his neck i knwo who he is with, what he does, etc…
another friend i had to stop being friend with after i attended a barbecue in brighton beach. he is a nice guy, but some who attended are not so nice. how do i know? i know the tattoos on their shoulders. and this was way before viggio’s new movie. (this was the 80s)
they didnt have any hand stuff…
they were not thugs
the barbwire means something
the number of dots between forfinger and thumb (spanish) means something.
now there are more who are doing so with tatoos similar to the ones that the yakuza are famous for. just go to the handball courts in flushing queens, you can pick out tong, and yakuza… but you have to know which is real and which just looks cool.
i have seen some interesting ones over the years..
one is a lenin with horns… like a devil with words freedom, equality, brotherhood, marxism is on the wing, so is slavery, communism, tyranny, … nice star on the forehead. i can show you picks of it, but the guys cover their shoulder spots… (so you dont see the marsk i saw at the barbecue and later at the baths)
but if you read the passages on sociopathy and their idea of freedom… then this tattoo, and the fact that the mob and state work together (see kennedy and giancarlo – see derzinsky and the prisons. etc)… all this is not so wild
in fact, its business as usual in history…
its just that we dont believe it, know it, or are told about it. sheeple.
Lots of them have tattoos… only a few of them have the shoulder marks.
so making tatoos very popular in the US…
made it VERY easy for these people to hide, link up, and operate…
after all… when such bosses come… and their ladies… all of these orgs use tatoos…
now that the military allows that too..
and that they allow immigrant non citizens to sign up with a new fast track on citizenship.
now any thug around thw world can get US military training on our dime.
just ask one what Bog means…
[and i am not talking God]
Huxley, I was presuming the same thing, that they were trying to give Hasan motivation to quit.
But surely we have some radar station in the Aleutians that could use a resident shrink? Greenland also sounds lovely, you know, nice and green.
That’s where I’d have sent him. Some place to chill out, figuratively and literally.
I’d say that the “narrative” on Hasan was that he was a psychiatrist for six years at Walter Reade, and good performance or not, such people are about as unlikely to become mass murderers as anyone.
In counterpoint, do you favor investigating poster Artfldgr as a potential mass murderer? Consider his long, inarticulate, and misspelled screeds ranting about Communists, Obama, and the downfall of America. Consider their similarities to this excerpt from the Unabomber’s Manifesto:
Stupid comment.
why, in the name of God, was a U.S. Army base a “gun-free zone”
Because generally they are? on base, like in the outside world, the government wants a totality on the use of lethal force. That means the MPs (and their civilian counterparts) are armed, and everybody else is generally not[*].
Also, it’s like information technology world. We don’t trust anyone who isn’t part of the organization. But if you’re part of the organization, we trust you. And if the people inside your organization aren’t trustworthy, you’ve got bigger problems than (network security|MP checkpoints) can deal with.
[*] There are exceptions to that, people heading to the range or out for manuevers, or shipping out to some hotspot have been issued arms and ammunition.
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“Daniel in Brookline: my understanding is that there were police and security guards around, and that one of them took him down. I believe I heard they are considering requiring a larger number of security.”
Additional police and security guards are unlikely to have done any good, except maybe make a confusing shootout in a small area where more people were wounded by riccochets than by actual shots even more confusing. Humans can react only so fast, never mind the fact that most security guards are trained to make sure they are shooting at the guy who’s firing instead of at the injured victims flailing around in a panic.
Expect a determined effort from the Left to distract from Hasan’s Islamic motivations…
…and an effort to manipulate the investigation by the White House.
On a side note to this, anyone think women can’t handle combat roles?
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/07/us/07police.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1257547765-4/zJTQz1tqggcNv4PhcX+w
that’s a rather impressive response by that officer.
Why didn’t we act more aggressively to stop the 9/11 suicide bombers? Ask the ACLU? It’s a litte difficult to act with 20/20 foresight? We live in a democracy that is burdened with political correctness.
On a side note to this, anyone think women can’t handle combat roles?
See that? Where we see dead soldiers, the dirty left sees an opportunity to advance their pet projects which leads to more dead soldiers….
Traitor Hasan shot 4 times and lived?
Brave Officer Munley shot 3 times and fortunately lived.
Tells you everything you need to know about the ineffectiveness of the 9mm round the cops and Army uses.
Gray, I had the same reaction. Shot four times and lived? Whoa, either he’s one tough (and/or lucky) mofo, or we need some more firepower.
neo-neocon Says:
“huxley: then why were they planning to send him to Iraq, as reported? And if he’s pro-suicide bomber, they should have anticipated the possibility of violence.”
If you tried to pin him down on these things he might have been able to spin them. Oh, I don’t personally approve but I understand the internal motivation… et cetera… The PC impulse is to buy that even when unwarranted.
About 75 percent of the country’s 17- to 24-year-olds are ineligible for military service, largely because they are poorly educated, overweight and have physical ailments that make them unfit for the armed forces, according to a report issued Thursday. …
“We are very concerned,” said retired Army Maj. Gen. James Kelley, a member of Mission: Readiness, the Washington-based nonprofit organization that issued the report. “We do have the greatest military in the world [–] we have the greatest planes, the greatest tanks, the greatest ships [–] but the key goal is having great people. Right now, we’re attracting very highly qualified folks but that could change over time.”
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,572351,00.html
so in the 60s… the got to the people to stop a war… now the children are unfit.
is hassan such a surprise when one has to scrape the bottom of the barrel now that merit has destroyed at least a few generations, if not the nation.
way to go liberals… a real improvement…
[A]bout a third of all potential recruits can’t join … because they’re too fat and out of shape.
“When you get kids who can’t do push-ups, pull-ups or run, this is a fundamental problem not just for the military but for the country,” said Curtis Gilroy, the Pentagon’s director of accessions policy.
these are the same people that is a pool in the case of crisis
as i said.. they defused our manufacturing base, so we could not gear up like wwii
they blew our cultural base, so we cant organize ourselves to even protect ourselves
they let huge numbers of not to good people in, drugs, etc..
our economics is not going to be able to respond and buy supplied to make things even if we could manufacture fast enouhg
the big companies that were able to change and manufacture fast are now not controlled by those who can do that.
all we need now is some incident to need more people or else the fight comes here.
did i mention 35 million extra chinese men of war age and their huge increase of weaponry?
The Chinese Sex BombAbout 40 million extra Chinese men by 2020
40 million young single men, concentrated in economically poor rural areas (thus sexually and economically frustrated young men) can be a source of social turmoil. Married guys are not so easily eager to go to war or start revolts.
so the minutea of hassan will not lead you to the more important bigger picture that really shows that he is the first drop of liquid coming through the cracks.
in 1920, the people could live teaming up and they could do small jobs, and they were socially superior.
in 2010… they cant repair anything they are not resourceful, they cant funciton without their machines, they cant plan, they cant organize themselves into working groups with a natural hierarchy that functions (everyone has to be the leader), they are all operating from different personal realities most of them dysfunctional outside their artificial environment.
Yup, me. I think women can’t handle combat roles.
The brave and skillful response of this officer was not combat. I’ve been through numerous training and real life military scenarios in my 22 year military career and the sad fact is women cannot last in field conditions.
After weeks in the mud, the heat, the cold, the rain without the ability to maintain regular hygiene women crack up every time.
Gray, you are my hero. I will repost your comment @my place, if you don’t mind.
sorry Vieux Charles, it’s water under the bridge.
It’s not the only article on it but it’s from Fox news which is always true.
But today’s battlefields, particularly in Iraq, have no front lines and insurgent attacks can happen anywhere at anytime. Military commanders say women as a whole have performed magnificently during the war, which is why some in Congress say they’re baffled by the current debate.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,157115,00.html
There was another article, not long ago which was detailing the particular women in these unexpected combat conditions and what they did. (but it’s either archived, or I haven’t got the right search terms yet)
Women can’t meet certain training requirements, (and some men can’t meet those either) but they’ve already proven themselves in battle.
Jerry Pournelle is thinking along the same lines:
http://www.jerrypournelle.com/view/2009/Q4/view595.html#Friday
And here’s another more extensive piece
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/16/us/16women.html
“I did everything there,” Ms. Alfaro, 25, said of her time in Iraq. “I gunned. I drove. I ran as a truck commander. And underneath it all, I was a medic.”
Portia, Pournelle raises an interesting point. Historically the US has prosecuted very few people for treason, but it’s becoming clear that we should do so more frequently. Hasan is definitely the poster boy for a treason prosecution, not that the Messiah would ever be man enough to do that.
Note the language of Article 3 of the Constitution defining treason: “adhering to [enemies of the United States], and “giving them aid and comfort.”
Half of the Democrat Party fits that definition.
Why is logern grinding this particular axe? Why the misdirection from him?
Nevermind women; I never thought the rent-a-cops on base were capable of anything!
( I’m definitely going to stop making fun of them. She did a great job.)
Thank you Tatyana. That is very kind of you. The military has been a lab for leftist social engineering since the “tailhook” scam. Occasionally it gets troops killed. This is the worst so far.
The Monsters are the Monsters: Only in such a PC environment can an anti-american, moslem Army officer be seen as a “good thing”. I’m sick of it….
Am I the only person who is beginning to wonder if Logern received a draft notice?
If so, Logern, sleep tight; it was a joke. There isn’t a draft anymore. The women will protect you. You can go back to arranging your wardrobe by color.
logern Says:
“Women can’t meet certain training requirements, (and some men can’t meet those either) but they’ve already proven themselves in battle.”
Selective point. You have to get to the battle and during a military campaign, that is often by foot…. with little support…
Also, I’m not sure many women were involved in combat roles in battles in Iraq… like retaking cities held by insurgents. Skrimishes are not ‘battles’. Support roles are not ‘combat’.
Y’know, following a massacre brought to you by Politically Correct Attitudes and Regulations only a leftist would claim we need more political correctness.
Once we are done with all the:
o Multicultural training
o sexual harassment training
o Consideration of Others training
o Don’t Ask Don’t Tell training
o Equal Opportunity training
o Swine Flu avoidance training
o Domestic Abuse training
o PTSD awareness training
and
o Muslim cultural awareness training,
We’ll have no time in the training schedule to train to close with and kill the the enemies of America in close combat.
Oh, wait, that’s the point of this, isn’t it?
good one gray
I dont know that Logern should be slammed for pointing out that there are plenty of very capable women in the military and Officer Kimberly Munley certainly has done a great job during the shoot-out. But in general, Id have to say men will always out-do women in sustained combat.
For my part, the opprobrium was attaching to his implicit contention that that was the salient lesson to be learned from this outrage.
Why?
I knew one Leftist who had a Top Secret clearance that once told me he admired Cuba’s Medical system. Stated there would be a World government one day- did not seem to object to it…
There was another Leftist with a TS that had spent considerable time in China as a civilian- an Ivy Leager also-not sure which is worse these days-lol
These are some of the reasons why I do not have as much certainty as some do that American troops WONT support a leftist dictator…..
I’m still boggled that Hasan could kill 13 and wound 31 others — most of them military — with only two handguns. He had to have reloaded for that.
As I understand it, the high casualty count was the reason that some initially assumed that there was more than one shooter.
I haven’t read a good account of what the scene was like. Perhaps some here with military experience or more knowledge can fill in.
These are some of the reasons why I do not have as much certainty as some do that American troops WONT support a leftist dictator…..
I for one don’t think they will support this leftist dictator, i.e. Obama, unless he manages to change the Constitution.
I dont know that Logern should be slammed for pointing out that there are plenty of very capable women in the military
It all goes to the point whether a military exists to kill the enemies of the nation in the most effective way, or whether it is a laboratory for social experimentation.
Whether it is more important to defend the country or to have moslem officers who shoot their fellow soldiers….
logern believes the military exists as a petrie-dish for liberals to test their social ideas in. Sometimes it kills people. They are profoundly “OK with that”.
logern believes the military exists as a petrie-dish for liberals to test their social ideas in. Sometimes it kills people. They are profoundly “OK with that”.
The first part. The second part, not so much.
I haven’t read a good account of what the scene was like. Perhaps some here with military experience or more knowledge can fill in.
Army rumor mill says he picked the deployment center on purpose “cuz it was all cherries who hadn’t deployed yet and not combat vets.” (The thinking is combat vets would have responded a lot faster. Who knows?)
Deployment centers are huge places where people mill around pointlessly and listlessly fill out paperwork for days and days so that the crappy place you are going seems less crappy after that experience.
Keep in mind that, oddly enough, Army Posts are the safest most gun-free environments on the planet.
It was fish in a barrel….
The first part. The second part, not so much.
Don’t be naive.
Haven’t you heard the leftist: “Screw those rednecks and hillbillies, they volunteered!” rants?
You imagine that the same lefties who accuse the military daily of warcrimes, rape, chemical warfare, looting and murder actually give a shit when their leftist policies get a few killed?
“Screw those rednecks and hillbillies, they volunteered!”
“Leftists are profaoundly “OK with that” (when soldiers get killed).”
The first part. The second part, not so much.
Obama sure was broken up about it:
“Big shout out to Joe Medicine Crow, that Medal of Honor winner. Great event, we gotta help the First Americans.
Oh, yeah. Some soldiers got killed…..”
PS: not a Medal of Honor winner, it was the medal of freedom
http://news.aol.com/article/obama-awards-medal-of-freedom-to-joseph/614009
I believe Obama doesn’t know the difference.
“Screw those rednecks and hillbillies, they volunteered!”
Exactly. Another reason I don’t believe our current military would support El Presidente for Vida Obama unless the Constitution clearly required them to do so.
As things stand, I don’t imagine Obama has any more heartfelt support among the American military than duty requires.
And the longer Obama dithers on Afghanistan, the less affection they will feel for him and rightly so in my opinion.
Gosh, I must have read something wrong, Neo. Did you say, you’re not holding the military responsible at all??? And it’s only the responsibility of the individual gunman??
I hope I am reading you incorrectly. Because in my world, for every predator, there’s a willingness to be preyed upon. So there’s a two-part responsibility here: predator and prey.
And in my world, the military is the willing prey. Therefore it is equally complicit in its responsibilityfor this mayhem.
And in my world, the military is the willing prey. Therefore it is equally complicit in its responsibilityfor this mayhem.
In what way?
Occam: You have put your finger square on it: Treason. Wishful thinking, but I do fantasize about charging Pelosi, Reid, Schumer, Franks, etc., etc. with treason.
Damn. I’m beginning to like Gray despite the tattoos. I appreciate the insights and passion.
Too many Americans think warfare is a bunch of freshly showered, cleaned clothed soldiers who just woke up from eight hours of sleep in a clean cot and just finished with a hot meal.
That ain’t warfare and women can’t handle it. I’ve seen it at least a couple dozen times. Send out a platoon of 40 soldiers (ten of which are women) and within two weeks you’ll be down to 75% combat strength and well into the realm of combat ineffective.
Generals are well aware of this reality and are careful to consider that women in the field, however brave and motivated, will quickly find themselves attritted.
Heroic female soldiers make for great news stories, and it is career suicide for a General officer to contradict what our politicians and citizens want to hear. But, this is reality. I’ve been there many times and seen if for myself.
I am reminded of something here that I had forgotten about. On my first trip to the Balkans, there was a Jordanian Police officer or Prison guard- I forget which, who shot up a bus of American police or prison guards that were working over there. Killed more than one as I recall.
Here is an old CBS article about that. There are some similarities: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/06/terror/main610513.shtml
“Communist” and “Obama” in a sentence isn’t alarmist, or even bad grammar.
It is, however, redundant.
Gray:
“logern believes the military exists as a petrie-dish for liberals to test their social ideas in. Sometimes it kills people. They are profoundly “OK with that”.”
I am aware that many liberals might like to use this occasion to point out how well a particular minority group has fared in this situation. Now that I think of it, Logern did not offer an opinion on certain religious minority groups and their fitness to serve with a nation at war with an extremist religious ideology. But I did not see Logern raise that issue, only to comment on how the female half of our society has conducted her self in her performance of duty. In that case, I think we should all agree t5hat she did rather well.
Too many Americans think warfare is a bunch of freshly showered, cleaned clothed soldiers who just woke up from eight hours of sleep in a clean cot and just finished with a hot meal.
That ain’t warfare and women can’t handle it.
Holy cow, well…I think you should think of a better answer. Such as poor leadership, training, or bad morale due to poor leadership. Or perhaps just plain old discrimination and narrow minded views.
How tough are women? For instance, do you think just men survived German concentration camps?
Women had babies while retreating in the Philippines while being pursued by the Japanese, and got up and kept walking afterwards.
Funny thing about the military — when you get an order to implement a service wide policy, you don’t get to make silly excuses.
Oh…
I think I must add, that if this woman was not a law enforcement officer and was just merely an armed citizen, the press might as well just played down or dismissed her actions. It’s not like that hasnt happened before. It all depends on the narrative.
As to the question of service of Muslims (or radical Muslim — are we talking someone making threats, that’s always been a no go)
I’m sure people are going to go there, by there, i mean take on Islam itself.
But we know people don’t actually practice a unified form of Christianity either, no matter what’s written in the Bible. Maybe Protestants take it personally that the Catholic Pope is reflecting directly on them with some statement he made (but truthfully, I’ve never noticed that being a big problem). Is it? Maybe I’ve just not noticed.
If there is a unified directive to strap on bombs and blow people up, it certainly isn’t being followed by a lot of Muslims still. What, is there about a billion out there? It’d be a lot of carnage.
To use another example from Christianity… often it’s only a small groups that tend to go strictly “by the book”
There’s a whole slew of backsliding Christians. And Episcopalians. . Ones that relax the commandants it appears when they see fit — sex before marriage, or committing adultery. Or simply don’t see the same interpretations in scripture other Christians seem to uphold. Fred Phelps sees a whole slew of important ones strictly concerning the damnation of homosexuality and the U.S. going to Hell because of it. He believes the path is very narrow indeed.
But then there’s the whole powerful persuasive effect of Islam itself, and however scary that is, that it might be everywhere some day. Can’t help you there. There’s freedom of religion unless you want to change the Constitution.
…to clarify, I don’t mean backsliding is approved. it just exists. Like some people seem to only go to Church on big days like Easter.
The potential, that one day, many of the bad effects of cult religions might appear in a much more prominent religion has always existed. I suppose that’s another way of looking at it.
“the potential, that one day, many of the bad effects of cult religions might appear in a much more prominent religion”
“One day”? Tell it to Charles Martel, Martin Luther, Janos Hunyadi, Constantine XI, John Sobieski, Ferdinand and Isabella, and many many more.
Islam has been on an ideologically-based expansionary crusade since the 7th century. Only the technological and social superiority of the West halted it for some time. Let’s not ignore over a thousand years of religiously-based conquest due to politically-correct, sanitized conventional wisdom.
I suspect it is no accident that the “Anti-Christ” of Christianity and “Al-Mahdi” of Islam share some characteristics. Funny thing is, Christians consider the “Anti-Christ” the ultimate “bad guy” and the Muslims see “Al-Mahdi” as a the good guy…….
http://al-mahdi.atspace.com/compare.html
Teaching moment:
It looks like one of Hasan’s weapon was an FN Five-Seven, which shoots a .224 diameter FMJ round out of a bottleneck case. A few years back it was the latest and greatest “new” caliber… basically a French rework of the old Tokarev 7.62X25mm concept.
Twenty round magazine capacity, extreme penetration, somewhat less lethal terminal ballistics when compared to traditional “stoppers” such as the .40 caliber and up family of hollow points. The weapon was designed around the 5.7mm cartridge which was primarily developed as a SpecOps/LEO tool intended to defeat body armor. Terminal effects are generally due to tumbling of the full metal jacketed round.
The LEO ammo is not available over the counter, as far as I know.
I believe, but cannot find a citation right now, that .40 has supplanted 9mm as the most common police cartridge. I know a LOT of Utah LEO carry .45 ACP now.
logern, what exactly is your point? The problem with Hasan was not that he is a Muslim, but that he gave off prior warning signs that he might be an Islamist and a candidate for sudden jihadi syndrome. The problem is, how do you tell the probable Islamist from the merely devout Muslim. This is not dissimilar to the Cold War problem–which also affected the Army and other government services–of how to distinguish “Liberals” from Communists, and how to distinguish mere Communist opinion and fellow traveling from active treason and espionage. Rules for camouflage and protective coloration dictate that the most extreme Communist spies will try to look just milquetoast liberals.
On the one hand, we want to protect the civil rights for practitioners of any religion (or none) and dissenters. On the other hand, at some point you reach an assessment that says that certain risks cannot be tolerated based on probabilities and not certainties. The stunt of the Flying Imams in Minneapolis was intended to push the probability required for action closer to 1.0, which means that you only react to incidents and treat them as a matter for criminal prosecution, where the perpetrators–like Hasan–enjoy the legal presumption of innocence.
We need to get comfortable with the idea that we will draw a line for risk assessment line that generates a certain number of “false positives” where suspicion of Islamism is concerned. The alternative is to take the risk that you will have so many sudden jihadi incidents that the public will demand an end to tolerance as far as Muslims are concerned. That strikes me as a terrible outcome, and far more damaging for religious and political pluralism.
“Too many Americans think warfare is a bunch of freshly showered, cleaned clothed soldiers who just woke up from eight hours of sleep in a clean cot and just finished with a hot meal.
That ain’t warfare and women can’t handle it.”
I’ve known women who could. To be fair, they were also spectacularly ugly women who smelled faintly of rotting meat, but women nonetheless.
Regardless, the modern volunteer military seems to be doing a pretty good job of burdening its people with the jobs they’re good at, and keeping them out of the jobs they aren’t so good at. It’s just that it’s politically correct to pretend the USMC must be 50% female, or else They Are Sexist And Must Be Stopped.
I wonder how much longer the US Armed Forces can continue to say “f*ck off” to the shrieking multiculturalists now that Obama is in charge…
And the Soviet military had very successful female snipers and fighter pilots. I’ll admit all that.
I’m speaking of my own observations. Of the dozens of field deployments to which I’ve particpated. Some while under hostile fire, most not, and all of which had women, on not one of those deployments did a women ever accomplish the mission to its end. They all fell victim to attrition to the environment – ALL of them.
Perhaps it is a cultural thing. Perhaps our military has created an environment where women are allowed to fail. In the Soviet Army, if a woman failed, she died.
These are just my own observations. Take it or leave it.
Recommend we stop following the the “women in combat” head fake.
“I knew one Leftist who had a Top Secret clearance that once told me he admired Cuba’s Medical system. Stated there would be a World government one day- did not seem to object to it…”
I think there will be a world government one day, too. Governments are inevitable once any group of people wants to make another group of people do something they aren’t inclined to do (even if the survival of both groups depends on that something getting done by someone). Fair or unfair, now that there is a world communication network there WILL be a world government. We already have at least a dozen competing NGOs trying to expand their influence to that level, and one of them (the UN) has already gained a nearly insurmountable lead over the others.
If the government that takes over the world is not carefully blocked from turning into a monster, then all the nightmares of all the conspiracy theorists will come true. Pretending that a one-world government can or must be prevented from forming only renders one unable to properly engineer the limitations that must be placed on the ones that are developing now.
“logern believes the military exists as a petrie-dish for liberals to test their social ideas in. Sometimes it kills people. They are profoundly “OK with that”.”
Gray, I wasn’t being naive – I read this too quickly and misunderstood your point, which in retrospect was clear enough. (I took it to mean that the military is a Petri dish, and sometimes the military kills people, when on re-reading it’s clear it said sometimes the liberals’ use of the military as a Petri dish kills members of the military.
Sorry, my bad. Reading comprehension, and all that.
Oblio Says:
November 7th, 2009 at 12:13 pm
logern, what exactly is your point?
Judging from the frantic way s/he’s flailing at it, the point is “change the subject away from the original topic.”
Pretty standard internet tactics. We should ignore it.
For the “75% are unfit”– I know when I went to boot camp, a month or two before 9/11, less than half of the guys could manage to do ten pushups. By the end of boot camp, they could. What can we expect when most folks haven’t had recess since 6th grade?
Oh, and apparently recruiting standards were changed for education– in 2001, as “Education Petty Officer,” I was in charge of the ten or so guys who had no GED; they all got that in boot camp. It’s now required that anyone who has a GED also have 15 college credits to get in. (Of course, there are waivers– there’s always waivers….)
For instance, do you think just men survived German concentration camps?
are you dim enough to suggest that they treated them the same and gave them the same tasks? after all, some of them survived by having sex, not many of the men did that, and they barely survived that way.
dumb point
The problem with Hasan was not that he is a Muslim, but that he gave off prior warning signs that he might be an Islamist and a candidate for sudden jihadi syndrome. The problem is, how do you tell the probable Islamist from the merely devout Muslim.
Oblio: Thanks for herding the topic back to the topic.
One clue is that Hasan listed his nationality as “Palestinian.”
Most people today wring their hands over the Japanese internment during WWII. It’s forgotten that 28% of draft-age Japanese-American evacuees refused to swear allegiance to the US or foreswear allegiance to the Japanese Emperor.
It’s one thing for a society to champion freedom of religion and expression; it’s quite another harbor enemies during a time of war and ignore the threats they may pose.
As the old saw goes, “The Constitution is not a suicide pact.”
I see no reason to tolerate anyone of any faith in the military who does not accept their oaths “to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same…”
I’d say listing one’s citizenship as Palestinian abrogates that oath.
That’s my psychiatrist!
There are soldiers all over who are now disoriented as they see their psychiatrist went crazy. They’ll need counseling…
Artfldgr Says:
are you dim enough to suggest that they treated them the same and gave them the same tasks? after all, some of them survived by having sex, not many of the men did that, and they barely survived that way.
dumb point
Women worked at some of the most difficult tasks such as construction of buildings and roads. They were used like animals, with twelve to fourteen of them pulling a huge roller to pave the streets.
The work day began at 7AM until 7PM, while the night shift worked from 7PM to 7AM. Some jobs required working on Sunday. The rolls calls (APPEL) were extremely tiring, long and difficult in winter because of the cold. After a half-day of work, women were exhausted, and had a short break to literally “grab” something to eat. Everything was done is a rush with guards close by and screaming orders. After midday meal, counting of prisoners began again until the 7PM end of work.
Women prisoners who could not work outside were employed at knitting for the army. This kind of work was created for women “rabbits” who had been used as guinea pigs after medical experimentation had been performed on them.
http://www.chgs.umn.edu/museum/exhibitions/ravensbruck/
Hey, Artflacker, it’s not me you’re insulting. Maybe you can go spit in their faces too, or on their graves.
Also, Artflugger, it’s rape not sex under threat of injury or death.
I don’t personally care if you think giving Hans the Nazi guard a BJ daily so you could get an extra piece of shoe leather in your watery soup is a nice way to live. That’s your business.
logern,
A short combat situation such as a police officer might face is one thing. Long sustained combat, under harsh conditions, with no showers, no hygene facilities is another. Some women would handle it better than others. Just as some men would handle it better than other men. But i’ll take my chances with the men if I had the choice.
I don’t think ARTFLDGR was spittin on anybody’s grave.
He is just not brainwashed by modern PC BS.
oh and Logern,
The Army’s Physical fitness test , when I got out a couple of years ago, allowed the women to do far less pushups and run far slower on the two mile run just to pass. There were of course those women who averaged better than many of the males, but the army understood they could not require that of the average female.
Your score on the PT test was part of your promotion points. ….. so women got to cheat- it was designed into the system….
As you got older, you were generally allowed to do less to pass. There was a chart that took both age and sex into account. I guess the army figured the older people should be valued more for their experience/ maturity.
I dont have one of the old cards, but this wiki article I am linking to shows on the charts that a 62 year old male has to run faster than a 27 year old female……..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Army_Physical_Fitness_Test
logern, your last comment to artfldgr was asinine and offensive in the extreme. We expect better behavior around here. Try to keep up.
Everyone else, let’s give it a rest about women in combat. We have bigger problems to worry about. For example, how to root out Americans who would murder their comrades and other Americans because they have an ideological sympathy to some foreign cause or group of people. Traitors, in fact.
We expect better behavior around here.
Hah.
Yes, here calling a Democrat a traitor is protected speech. I know the rules.
logern, I don’t think that most Democrats are traitors. Do you?
Well, actually I don’t have any complaints unless there is some sort of double standard. You seem to have a complaint about me being offensive, whereas generally being a liar, or traitor, on the left is just a given statement around here by many.
So…I don’t care unless there is some sort of double standard, you see.
There’s certainly some rightwingers who cuss like the devil too. I’m not opposed to it, and I’m not going to call them on it. You may find it unacceptable.
Ah, anyway, doesn’t Neo decide this stuff? I’m not gonna waste time in a long thread of back and forth insults. Just a few, I’m done, if anything.
Let the chips fall where they may.
Section 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort.
I say no more.
I think most democrats would be traitors if not for the fact that they are also cowards.
We expect better behavior around here.
Oblio: Not really. Not as far as I can tell. It’s not as bad as the Daily Kos, but this blog has become something of a part-time right-wing fever swamp IMO.
It’s perfectly all right to insult liberals and leftists, in general and specifically, and those who would in any way defend them.
The only time objections occur to such attacks are when the attacks, or seeming attacks, come from the left.
I appreciate your efforts to hold up standards though.
huxley, we also expect better behavior than mere name-calling and conspiracy-mongering from the Right.
Sad to say, there is too much of that around here at the moment. There has been way too much talk of violence in particular. huxley, you have been trying to call attention to excessive rhetoric for a couple of weeks now, and rightly so.
For example: Gray, your last comment isn’t helpful to the argument and can only be insulting to a lot of people who don’t deserve to be insulted. It is not violent, but it is excessive. You are painting with too broad a brush altogether to change the opinion of anyone who doesn’t already agree with you.
Nevertheless, I think that there is a meaningful difference between the customary partisan invective and personal attacks involving sexual content. logern was well across that line, which is why I am complaining now.
And who am I to complain? Just a reader, with the same right to complain as any other reader.
We need to have some standards of decorum.
It’s not as bad as the Daily Kos, but this blog has become something of a part-time right-wing fever swamp IMO.
*snort* That is possibly one of the most ridiculous things I’ve read this week– and that includes the PTSD suggestion for Hasan.
It’s a bit like saying “I’m not saying that meter maids are like Nazis, but they are both following orders….”
The sheer difference in degree, kind, monitor support, truth-value, obscenity and probably several other things my hands hurt too much to type.
A clue to what? Both of his parents emigrated from the West Bank. What should he have put as his nationality?
If we removed every soldier who had doubts about the legitimacy of a war or who was unwilling to be deployed there, we would have a very small military indeed.
Hy Rosen, what Hasan should have described as his nationality depends on the question asked and the circumstances. huxley doesn’t provide a link, but he is, I think, suggesting that this was more evidence that Hasan suffered from divided loyalties. When you consider a Palestinian attending a mosque where they promote the idea that the US is at war with Islam, you have a guy who has too much in common with Hamas to feel comfortable putting a loaded gun into his hand. This isn’t hard to figure out.
The idea that anyone is proposing that everyone with doubts about the war policy should be excluded is what is unknown as a straw man argument and is correctly understood as a logical fallacy. It is the mark of an unserious mind. Please try to keep up.
Richard Fernandez picks up the thread in his usual fashion, with a highly practical way of dealing with the problem.
http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/11/09/dissent-is-the-highest-form-of-patriotism/
If you don’t feel comfortable about Hasan putting a loaded gun into Hasan’s hand, you may wish to support stronger gun control measures; Hasan purchased one legally from a gun shop.
If you believe my response to Pournelle is attacking a straw man, please explain to me what Pournelle actually means – that quote is from his blog.
And what is the practical way in RF’s blog? Investigate soldiers (or others?) who make suspicious comments earlier? I point out again that in such a regime, there are any number of commenters on this blog who should be investigated for treason and sedition, or plain dangerous insanity. You who claim to be freedom loving should be especially wary of creating a state apparatus to investigate thought crimes, in order to prevent a vanishingly small set of incidents. I assure you that you will regret ever having thought it a good idea should it come to pass.
Another stupid comment. Your streak is intact.
Hy Rosen, I hadn’t focused on Pournelle, but now that I read him, he doesn’t say anything close to what you say: he is discussing officers who become manifestly unable to lead. Attacking the legitimacy of policy is different from “having doubts.” Surely that is obvious.
With respect to the ability of the government to investigate people who make suspicious comments, it does exist; it has existed; and it should exist, especially with regard to people who are in the service of the government. I should say, especially if they are in the foreign policy and defense establishments, broadly interpreted.
And we aren’t talking about “thought crime:” that’s another straw man. We are talking about repeated incidents involving a person in authority. If he were on a university campus and had made a single statement with the opposite meaning, he not only would have been investigated, he probably would have lost his job (assuming he didn’t have tenure).
With respect to Treason, I haven’t seen any comments that would rise to the Article III, Section 3 definition helpfully cited above, unless you would consider statements intended to support or protect Islamists to be giving Aid and Comfort to the enemies of the United States. If it comes up on this blog, be sure to note it; but most of such comfort and aid that we see in the real world is done by the Lynne Stewarts of the world, and I would be quite happy to see her put away in chokey for a very long time.
It comes down to a ratio: what is the acceptable ratio between “false positives” (i.e. people unjustly suspected of being security risks) and “false negatives” (people who should have been suspected, but weren’t)?
Since the cost of false negatives is measured in death, and the cost of false positives is measured in annoyance, I think the ratio should be higher rather than lower. I think most people would find that to be completely understandable (except for those who might like for there to be more death and more terror, of course). That’s why we take off our shoes at the airport. We are all under suspicion, for no reason at all.
Looks like Hasan tried to contact al-Qaeda. Not much chance of a “false positive” here.
http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/fort-hood-shooter-contact-al-qaeda-terrorists-officials/story?id=9030873
Clearly, Army officials have set the bar for suspicion way too high. Heads should roll.
There is a front organization, Anaara Media, run by an Islamic extremist by the name of Fuad Kamal operating in the U.S. Fuad Kamal is an explosives expert and martial arts expert. This is an East Coast operation with ties to Muslim organizations throughout the world.