The Big Fourteen
From Ace: the McCain camp is pointing out fourteen lies Biden told in the debate. Or maybe they were mistakes; I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
The New Neo
A blog about political change, among other things
From Ace: the McCain camp is pointing out fourteen lies Biden told in the debate. Or maybe they were mistakes; I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt.
I told all of you on the other thread tonight that Joe Biden is a bad man. He has a history of doing this sort of thing. Again, I ask anyone who will venture an educated guess, why is it that a bad man (and a liar) will trust people like Communist leaders (in the past), Ahmed Ahmadinejad, and Vladimir Putin? Surely, bad men know each other and know that they deceive each other. So, what gives here?
Ironically, all the gotcha, pop quiz, sandbagging of Sarah Palin may have helped lower expectations. (myself included)
But the Sarah I watched tonight at least says shes a quick study and at most it goes to show how effective the attacks on her have been.
I never expected her to do as well as she did.
Its too bad there are no more debates with her.
I’m glad you all find Sarah so cute, but the sad truth is that her diction was not her own. Palin’s “folksiness” was as studied as her answers. I’ve heard her talk for years; granted the annoying accent is her own (see here: http://peterstanton.blogspot.com/2008/09/alaskan-accent.html ), but the her word choice in the debate totally threw me for a loop. Quick points:
Alaska is not the heartland, and we are far too diverse to be stereotyped.
Palin is a rich politician the same as the rest (about the same as Obama, I should say -don’t know Biden’s assets- but much less than McCain of course). Today our local paper ran an update on her situation and she’s a comfortable millionaire.
In the end, the only thing Palin has going for her is ignorance -not hers- the country’s. I don’t mean to be rude, although I know I come off that way, but please don’t let what you want to see cover up who Sarah really is. Isn’t that as bad as Obamamania?
She oughtta challenge O’Biden to a debate a week. Heck, she oughtta challenge Obama to a debate! Charge admission and donate the huge proceeds to charity!
I cringe every time either side claims the other guys “lied”. It’s inevitable that every so often it will turn out that “you” are mistaken and “they” didn’t lie and now “you” look like either an idiot or, well, a liar.
I’d prefer “Joe Biden misrepresented”, “apparently Joe Biden wasn’t paying attention”, “Joe Biden is confused”, or anything along those lines – there’s lots of room for snippy, sarcastic, and amusing.
And it would have been at least as effective – probably more effective – to title the list “Joe Biden was wrong – 14 times”. I really hope “lie” was the blogger’s language, not the McCain camp’s – especially since McCain (justifiably) gets quite outraged when his campaign’s business as usual spin, hyperbole, and political license are denounced as “lies”.
This is how Peter describes himself:
Peter: Socialism is the way to death.. death of the individual and death of the nation.
A soul-dead Europe rush into its arms after WWII… Europe will be gone within 50 years as a consequence.
America is about Liberty, not Material Equality which can never be achieved.
Why not call a spade a spade? When we equivocate, we debase the meaning of our words.
“JOE BIDEN’S 14 LIES TONIGHT
1. TAX VOTE: Biden said McCain voted “the exact same way” as Obama to increase taxes on Americans earning just $42,000, but McCain DID NOT VOTE THAT WAY.
2. AHMEDINIJAD MEETING: Joe Biden lied when he said that Barack Obama never said that he would sit down unconditionally with Mahmoud Ahmedinijad of Iran. Barack Obama did say specifically, and Joe Biden attacked him for it.
3. OFFSHORE OIL DRILLING: Biden said, “Drill we must.” But Biden has opposed offshore drilling and even compared offshore drilling to “raping the Outer Continental Shelf.”
4. TROOP FUNDING: Joe Biden lied when he indicated that John McCain and Barack Obama voted the same way against funding the troops in the field. John McCain opposed a bill that included a timeline, that the President of the United States had already said he would veto regardless of it’s passage.
5. OPPOSING CLEAN COAL: Biden says he’s always been for clean coal, but he just told a voter that he is against clean coal and any new coal plants in America and has a record of voting against clean coal and coal in the U.S. Senate.
6. ALERNATIVE ENERGY VOTES: According to FactCheck.org, Biden is exaggerating and overstating John McCain’s record voting on alternative energy when he says McCain voted against it 23 times.
7. HEALTH INSURANCE: Biden falsely said McCain will raise taxes on people’s health insurance coverage — they get a tax credit to offset any tax hike. Independent fact checkers have confirmed this attack is false
8. OIL TAXES: Biden falsely said Palin supported a windfall profits tax in Alaska — she reformed the state tax and revenue system, it’s not a windfall profits tax.
9. AFGHANISTAN / GEN. MCKIERNAN COMMENTS: Biden said that top military commander in Iraq said the principles of the surge could not be applied to Afghanistan, but the commander of NATO’s International Security Assistance Force Gen. David D. McKiernan said that there were principles of the surge strategy, including working with tribes, that could be applied in Afghanistan.
10. REGULATION: Biden falsely said McCain weakened regulation — he actually called for more regulation on Fannie and Freddie.
11. IRAQ: When Joe Biden lied when he said that John McCain was “dead wrong on Iraq”, because Joe Biden shared the same vote to authorize the war and differed on the surge strategy where they John McCain has been proven right.
12. TAX INCREASES: Biden said Americans earning less than $250,000 wouldn’t see higher taxes, but the Obama-Biden tax plan would raise taxes on individuals making $200,000 or more.
13. BAILOUT: Biden said the economic rescue legislation matches the four principles that Obama laid out, but in reality it doesn’t meet two of the four principles that Obama outlined on Sept. 19, which were that it include an emergency economic stimulus package, and that it be part of “part of a globally coordinated effort with our partners in the G-20.”
14. REAGAN TAX RATES: Biden is wrong in saying that under Obama, Americans won’t pay any more in taxes than they did under Reagan. [they’ll be paying as much as they did under Clinton, a big difference.]”
So. Claims and counter-claims, and there is the good old Congressional Record to verify whether they are, or are not, lies.
Biden has a long history of being a liar and a plagiarist, from his student days, in fact. And we know that there are long noses in powerful positions in our government.
I’m glad someone can read my profile. Any comment on this blog’s endorsement of Palinmania?
– Think joe Biden’s aim was just to talk, and talk authoritatively. By throwing out all of this and that and the other (I remember this, and Barack voted that way, and “God love John, but…) most viewers probably will forget that he was incorrect 14 times (or more) in a few days. They will remember that he “knew so much” and cited so many facts (wether he was wrong so many times will soon be forgotten). So there is a method to his madness — not madness at all, in fact.
Palin will be remembered as warm and folksy, as loyal and as someone determined to talk “straight to the American citizens” and comes straight from Mainstreet, U.S.A. She will be regarded as a “maverick” and someone capable and with real accomplishments, and someone with expertise on energy, etc.
It is impossible to know everything about every issue — certainly there was no way Palin could become an expert on both international and domestic issues in 5 weeks. Biden knows if you bluff really well, you can usually get away with a lot. Because Palin has been attacked relentlessly and defined by a very biased MSM with edited interviews, the victim of every underhanded and even “aboveboard” trick in the book and then some, she chose to define herself in the role of the “I am any one of you” candidate, but I have executive experience and I am up to the job.
They both succeeded, but in very different ways.
My “oh, yuck” moment of the night: Biden, declaring that just because he is a man doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what it is to raise two kids on his own…… pulled the biggest fakest gulp, swallow and attempt to tear up as he uttered the “…not to know if your kid is going to make it….” Not one to minimize his tragedy but it WAS 35 yrs. ago, and it’s just tacky to employ it as a political tactic. Yuck!
I don’t believe that Joe Biden lied because I don’t believe he has enough respect, or perhaps reverence, for the truth. I speculate that his false statements werethe result of carelessness in both thinking and speech, perhaps the result of believing that his position is so deeply correct that the details are of secondary importance. Some details probably are, but these are not because they are the foundations of his argument.
I will grant the point that we don’t know that the false statements were intentionally false, and cannot inerrantly call them lies. But we can call them false statements, and we can say that he used false statements to make or buttress his case.
Peter, please look at history, and look at the human condition. Socialism is the death of society, civilization, and the human soul. Is that worth lying to yourself about? And yes, I consider your arguments lies because the facts are in front of you and you have an obligation to see them, test them, and ultimately to accept them. (I won’t repeat them; they are right above my post here.)
Did socialists carve homes out of the wilderness? The one time it was tried, by New World Puritans, they came to the brink of starvation before they abandoned the experiment, gave each family responsibility for their own welfare, and prospered. (And, in fairness to them, none of them would have let someone starve from misfortune; they believed in their community in a way that few can, outside of (say) the Amish or the Hassidim.) The people who carved civilization out of the wilderness and laid the foundations for our freedoms and prosperity believed deeply in property rights; that is why they risked so much to gain the chance to enjoy them and employ them.
Unless I heard him incorrectly, I am pretty sure that Biden made a big mistake (clearly not a lie) that nobody seems to be talking about — did I hear him correctly to claim that Article 1 of the Constitution establishes the Executive Branch? It’s Article 2. Article 1 establishes the Legislative Branch.
He waxed scornful and furious at Cheney for purportedly not knowing the Constitution or pretending that he doesn’t. Not so smart when he’s getting it wrong himself.
Or did I mishear?
Hey, how’s ’bout a little mixed Jewish/Muslim humor?
Q> How can you tell when your shul has too many liberals?
A> When the only shofar note is Takiah!
Get it? Tehiah, Takiah?
– they all lie, some more than others but McCain needs to run some video of the crappy neighborhoods where Obama was a community organizer and show the voting Public what Obama has actually accomplished. Mac comes across as rigid, his body, and he can’t help it because of war wounds, just like Bob Dole, so he needs to lighten up, joke a bit, smile more, a few fast one-liners….
– they all lie, some more than others but McCain needs to run some video of the crappy neighborhoods where Obama was a community organizer and show the voting Public what Obama has actually accomplished. Mac comes across as rigid, his body, and he can’t help it because of war wounds, just like Bob Dole, so he needs to lighten up, joke a bit, smile more, a few fast one-liners….
Palin should have confronted Biden on his lies right there and immediately. Now – and not from her lips – it’s a bit too late.
Her silence made it look like it was a sign of agreement.
I think it may be too late anyway to prevent what is going to happen. In January America gets to celebrate at the altar with its chosen bad boy, whom it hopes will change from a bad boy to a good boy. It’s not going to happen, and it will be a painful lesson for the nation.
This article pretty much nails it:
http://www.americanthinker.com/2008/10/romanticizing_obama.html
The blog comments on that article are interesting too.
The scariest thing to me that is rarely talked about is Joe’s comments that Obama wants to go even farther than extending low interest rates to home owners to keep them from foreclosing. He said Obama wants to reduce the principle as well.
OMG ! Reduce principle !
These people ARE dangerous for America.
As Palin talked about – what about personal responsibility?
Why can’t someone who made a risky investment just live in an apartment for awhile? I’ve lived in apartments from 1987 – 1997. 10 years of it. I’ve now owned my own home for 11 and now I have to PAY for OTHER people’s homes????
Biden did well and held his team’s position, which is what is supposed to happen in a VP debate.
Palin … was Palin. Nobody will remember anything she said by Monday.
Including her.
sashal, Guess what? I’ll come back here and recite things she said for you.
But that won’t matter. You’ll be mean, judgmental, and full of disdain.
That does more to convince me of the person you are than persuade me that Palin is not smart. Do you understand that? 🙂
How about taking discourse UP a notch or two? Can you?
Here is one of the best opinions
Larison:
Not a Disaster
How’s that for a compliment? There’s no question that Palin was outmatched the entire time, and I am fairly sure that viewers will come away thinking that Biden was the winner and was more qualified for the VP role. Give her credit—she held on through the entire thing, clutching to her prearranged attack points for dear life, and she didn’t say anything that was fantastically horrible. Her statement on civilian casualties caused by airstrikes in Afghanistan would have been atrocious if I believed that she knew any better, but I feel confident that she does not know anything about the situation in Afghanistan. McCain’s campaign is already in terminal decline, so it probably didn’t matter that much anyway. Had she completely failed, it would have made the result more lopsided, but I expect that there will be only a marginal boost for Obama in the next few days.
Consistently, Larison is one of the best bloggers out there. As someone who does not consider himself a Republican, Democrat, or independent, but an actual conservative , he offers an oblique angle on our current politics that is piercing and worth reading.
The 14 things does not include just stupid errors of fact and nonsense either. The complete nonsense about Lebanon, citing the wrong section of the constitution, et cetera.
My experience, so far, is that what commenters post about other people often appear to be what they see in their own mirrors. FWIW
*Sashal, I could tell you to keep your advice/threat to yourself, as well as your disrespectful tone – but I think it’ll make little difference: people like you are just doing the job they have been paid for BY FOREIGN POWERS.
So I’ll take that snide remark for a complement by an enemy combatant: I must be saying something right if you hate me so much.
mrs whatsit
Strange I heard that also, but thought I was wrong. Thanks for confirmation
yes, Tanya: typical brainwashed victim of propaganda. And not very smart too.
This country is voting for Obama, majority will be electing democrats not the republicans who put our country in the dire predicament.
So , I guess that minority enemy must be you, dura, using your definition of political discourse.
Another uncompromising Rosa Luxembourg.
Why does Russia produce such a one-sided intolerant political bigots?
Right, how dare I to be intolerant to a commie who tells me I’m brainwashed by Republicans?
Who calls me a numbskull (approx. translation), lies …oh, in about every damn sentence and addresses me in the tone and manner of a KGB prisoner guard (well, you can take a man out of prison, but not the prison out of the man)
For those who are confused:
-Rosa Luxembourg was a) German citizen between 2 Great wars b) communist. A totalirtarian, as implies by both affiliations. As such, she’s much closer to this here *sashal character than to me.
-“The country” is not voting in Obama The Socialist Puppet, *sashal. Until the votes are counted, nobody can predict what will happen, least of all – people who were wrong on the outcome in election’04. Substituting wish for a fact, aren’t we?
-Democrats, not Republicans, “put our country in dire predicament” – as with everything you say, it’s exactly the opposite of the truth.
-apparently, Russia produced *sashal – an intolerant political bigot; nothing could be easier for *sashal to describe one than looking in the mirror.
What a perfect exhibit for a historian of communist propaganda: projecting, full of hysteria, derogatory speech, distortion of facts, pinning his own ills on the opponent.
Neo, you are too generous to give Biden a benefit of doubt: at least half of his, um, false statements MUST be deliberate lies. And he uttered them with such brilliantly faked sincerity, that this alone exposes him as a habitual liar. Why should we suppose that other stuff is not deliberate lies, too?
“What a perfect exhibit for a historian of communist propaganda: projecting, full of hysteria, derogatory speech, distortion of facts, pinning his own ills on the opponent.”
The story is more sad than this. If only I could blame communist propaganda for these unsavoury traits! But they were endemic in Russia long before the word “communism” became known to anybody in Russia. That is why communism was so successful here, not the other way round.
Bismark once said: “Poles are poets in politics and politics in poetry”. Russians are worse: they are religious fanatics in politics and political fanatics in religion.
Tatyana: you cannot expect Palin to have memorized every single vote of McCain. I think that’s why she couldn’t challenge Biden’s lies on the spot.
neo-neocon Says:
“Tatyana: you cannot expect Palin to have memorized every single vote of McCain. I think that’s why she couldn’t challenge Biden’s lies on the spot.”
Also, they were so spun that even if she knew every vote she might not recognise what he was talking about.
To use an example for our side, of the same game, ‘you voted against body armour for the troops’… if you were Kerry you’d be ‘what?’ the first time you heard it.
“My experience, so far, is that what commenters post about other people often appear to be what they see in their own mirrors. FWIW”
Mr. Gordon, you are not a good judge of character. There is ample evidence from last night and from the many years of his public life to support my contention that Sen. Biden is a bloviator, a liar, and a bad man. He is a narcissist – a charmer who knows to get what he wants either through flattery or the knife in the back.
Neo – and Thomass: I didn’t mean McCain’s voting.
She didn’t say a word about what (and who) really caused the current crisis, instead there was something about “greed on Wall Street”. She didn’t say anything about Comm. R.Act . She said nothing to Biden’s assertion that “middle class in this country creates business”. And the GW!
I don’t know how to link comments from the thread, so here I’ll quote Perry verbatim:
But she’s so disappointed me. She could have easily pinned Biden on certain things, instead of populist pandering. Things like the nature of corporate taxation (that it’s merely passed on to consumers), “fairness” being B.S. when regular folks work at oil companies too, the fact that Obama HAS called for universal health care, and the fact that approving drilling now will help prices fall immediately (actual supply doesn’t have to increase right away, because current prices reflect future supply as well as in the present).
I thought the same thing when I was listening to debate. She lost her opportunity.
“She didn’t say a word about what (and who) really caused the current crisis, instead there was something about “greed on Wall Street”.”
One has to realize how short an amount of time she had to talk and who the target audience was.
Those who know enough about those acts for a short statement like that to mean something already know it. Those that know nothing about it would just be confused. I mean lets face it – how many here knew what those things were the first time they heard them a short few days ago (except, of course, people who are in said industry, you do not count on this crisis – I’m sure we can find a big one somewhere that you didn’t know all the relevant laws). If all you had to go one was a one to two minute mention you wouldn’t have the faintest idea what was being discussed.
Greed in Wall Street is a pretty decent description. I would have added greed by corrupt congressmen too and encourage people to look at, say, OpenSecrets. org on the whole thing (especially given that McCain is one of the middle-to-low money takers from PACs/lobbyist and Obama is one of the highest).
I find it better to lead to the water than give it. If she had blamed it on the democrats it would *not* have stuck at all – it would have been dismissed as partisan politics. Going into specifics would have zoomed over the target audiences head. Though I do agree that she missed a golden opportunity to point the general public in the right direction and let them make up their own minds.
If anyone wants the details of what the candidates plan to do.. then go to their websites where you can read all the papers your heart desires.
The “debates” are not the forum for candidates to elucidate in detail what their plans are.
God forbid if they were.. they’re boring enough as it is.
*strcpy: I don’t think she blame it on Wall Street’ greed for the luck of time and out of tactical reason.
She couldn’t name names because Republicans – and specifically mcCain – supported the bil that was right at that moment being voted in in the House. And everything that caused the crisis will continue – CRA is not demolished, and subprime mortgages are still advertised.
She claimed she’s for “small government”, if I remember correctly, she even invoke that Reagan quote, “I’m from the government and I’m here to help” – all on background of the tremendous expense that the government just put on taxpayers’ shoulders.
Will I get jumped on as a socialist stooge if I note that a quick trip to FactCheck.org shows both candidates were less than fully truthful and each used distortions and misrepresentation to score political points?
On a second thought – my dissatisfaction possibly is misplaced and should be directed not at Palin but at McCain.
Oh well, he’s not Thompson, that’s for sure.
Chris White: no, you won’t. But if you are suggesting that all distortions and “lies” are equal, you will meet with disagreement. There are differences of quality and quantity.
And the lie supposed “expert on foreign policy” Biden told about Lebanon is such a whopper it is stunning, as well as his flat-out lies over and over about McCain’s votes. Very material errora/lies, and not open to debate or nuance. Either the man is a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or his ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented. Take your pick.
And the MSM ignores it.
Will I get jumped on as a socialist stooge
Your judgment is flawed. Given that premise, what else do you think matters? Socialist stooge? A person of good judgment that was a socialist stooge would be dangerous and not a stooge for much longer.
My brief analysis of the debate as I watched it on Youtube is here
I haven’t finished with all the parts, I stopped at the Afghanistan question.
Palin wrong about troop levels in Iraq. Palin misrepresents tax impact on families making as little as $42,000. Palin wrong about McCain health care plans being “budget neutral.” Palin wrong about “millions of small businesses” that would face increased taxes under Obama’s plans. Palin confused about name of newly appointed military leader of our forces in Afghanistan. Palin selectively distorts Gen. McKierman’s statements regarding the efficacy of using surge principles in Afghanistan. Palin misrepresents Obama’s statements regarding current tactics in Afghanistan. Palin overstates Obama and Biden’s votes for tax increases. Palin overstates cost of oil imports. Palin misrepresents Obama’s record on tax breaks for oil companies.
Biden wrong about McCain & Obama voting the same on a given tax bill. Biden wrong about McCain not sitting down with leader of Spain. Biden wanting to have it both ways on “clean coal”. Biden misrepresents McCain’s position on health care industry deregulation. Biden misrepresents McCain’s tax breaks to oil companies. Biden overstates Iraq’s budget surplus. Biden misrepresents McCain votes regarding alternative energy. Biden claims about “U.S. & France kicking Hezbollah out of Lebanon” downright incomprehensible.
Palin no less than Biden dissembles and distorts to make political points. Either she, too, is “a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or [her] ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented. Take your pick.” Then again, perhaps she is just a major party candidate doing what major party candidates do while courting votes. As is Biden.
It is only partisan nonsense to focus all the negative attention on either of these two politicians and all the positive spin on the other.
The histories of politicians laying in US are similar and close each to other.
But what more concerned here is those who don’t care the liars leading WH and believing in their lies and leading them as what happened with GWB who elected by voters twice to WH.
So its US voter misery not candidates as such.
Chris White: if you don’t see the differences between the representations of the two I have to say there’s something wrong with your judgment. A great many of Palin’s misrepresentations are in matters of how taxes are evaluated, a notorious area where—depending on how people tote up the statistics—they can “prove” one thing or other. This is done more or less equally by both sides and in nearly all elections. Getting the name if a general slightly wrong is irrelevant to me no matter who does it, right or left. And I read an article about the General’s attitude towards the surge and Afghanistan that was quite congruent with her assertions about him. Her surge/troop figures were not perfect, but they were not that far off, either.
The point is that these are typical examples of political shadings and spin and interpretation. Biden’s misrepresentations, on the other hand, feature a surprising number of outright lies about things that can’t be argued about. How McCain voted. And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon. The most dreadful thing about that is that Biden is supposed to have worked in the field of foreign relations for umpteen million years (yes, that’s hyporbole), that his error was egregious and disturbing, and that the media is so biased it didn’t call him on it. Do you think for a minute that if Palin had said a thing so stupid it would not be highlighted in nearly every paper?
“And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon.”
If Palin had made up a story with that much detail that *never* remotely occurred it would be running until the day of the election.
That Biden either lied that much or was just that mistaken is egregious. If it had just been an offhand remark or just a single statement – but the detail in what he described given that it never happened was astonishing. If he was simply mistaken – how can a person be *that* mistaken and not have severe mental issues is pretty much impossible.
The ones on McCains voting were bad, but not really that bad (sadly they are normal in politics), one can even say he made a mistake. It isn’t that hard to find individual facts and get them messed up a little. However the Lebanon thing was, well, just incomprehensible in it’s detail and having never remotely occurred (or come close to occurring).
That Palin did not refute or rebut Biden on Lebanon, in context with Palin’s public statements thus far on foreign affairs, suggests she was not sufficiently informed to do so. Frankly, I am no less dismayed by the idea of an uninformed (if capable of quickly learning sound bites that resonate with the base) governor being a heartbeat away from a 72 — 76 year old President with an extensive medical history than I am a blovating party hack senator being a heartbeat from a 48-52 year old President.
However bizarre and fictitious one of the examples was, the underlying case Biden was making, that the Bush policies in the Middle East have been so intensely focused on a military “solution” in Iraq and so misguided there and elsewhere that many of the unintended consequences have been diametrically opposed to the best interests of the U.S., is, of course, subject to debate. Certainly I believe it to be the case. Palin offered little to convince me otherwise. Our policies toward Iran, for example, have strengthened their hardliners internally and increased their influence in the region, including their support of Hamas and Hezbollah. It is precisely our belligerent insistence on Iran accepting ultimatums before we’ll negotiate with them that has lessened our influence and hurt the cause of internal moderates and secularists. We’ve paid insufficient attention to Afghanistan for too long and are beginning to see the negative results. The Bush approach toward Pakistan has left us in a precarious position with one of the known nuclear … excuse my elitist bias … ‘nuke-you-lar’ powers. Throughout the debate Palin offered little to suggest the McCain ticket would alter course in the region in any significant way. She made little more than the reflexive and ritualistic statements about Israel and jingoistic cracks about waving the white flag of surrender.
Neither VP candidate inspires much confidence.
One candidate NOT refuting another is not evidence of ignorance, at first I thought it was too before someone told me that it’s conisdered to be a weak technique to argue agaisnt your oppoinent’s point.
I dotn know why this is, but that is a strategy that people who are in debates follow.
Plus weren’t the ground rules of this debate very strict?