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Vicious murder on the NY subway

The New Neo Posted on by

A description:

A migrant from Guatemala has been arrested for allegedly lighting a sleeping subway rider on fire in Brooklyn on Sunday morning — then watching as his innocent victim burned to death in what the New York’s top cop called “one of the most depraved crimes one person could possibly commit.”

The savage killing — which happened at about 7:30 a.m. on an idling F train at the Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue station — shocked commuters, MTA workers and NYPD Commissioner Jessica Tisch, who said Sunday that the heinous crime “took the life of an innocent New Yorker.”

There’s much much more at the link. But one thing I don’t see is whether there were witnesses, and what they did or didn’t do. After the Daniel Penny arrest and trial, it would be hard to fault them for holding back.

The alleged perp was identified through photos and three high-schoolers called police because they saw him and recognized him on another subway. Also:

Officials said the 33-year-old suspect came to the US in 2018 from Guatemala. He was detained by border patrol agents in Arizona in June of that year, sources said. His legal status wasn’t immediately clear Sunday night.

He received a transit summons in May 2023, but his criminal record in New York City was largely clean otherwise, sources said. He was living at a shelter on Randall’s Island at the time of the infraction.

Take your pick: psychopath, drugs, psychotic, or some combination of the three?

Comments

Vicious murder on the NY subway — 62 Comments

  3. As reported by the Times of India; 11/6/2024 Guatemala has an average IQ of 47.72.

    If you tend towards the average, your choices of entertainment may not mesh with a modern society.

    Facts are cold and hard, but also unavoidable.

  5. “Take your pick: psychopath, drugs, psychotic, or some combination of the three?”

    Simply evil. No need to diagnose evil. Just eliminate it.

    After a fair trial and upon conviction, the consequence imposed should always be proportionate to the offence. Society should respect his preferred method of execution and in turn impose immolation upon him. Mercy to the barbaric is cruelty to the civilized.

  6. Geoffrey:
    Well and truly said.
    Mercy to the barbaric is for the spineless among us. They vote (D).

  7. Guatemala has an average IQ of 47.72

    I suspect a measurement artifact here. That’s like 3.5 standard deviations. Now somebody has to fill in the bottom 0.01% of the bell curve, but my guess is that there’s a lot of people in Guatemala whose IQ can’t be measured accurately. They have too many countries scoring that low, it doesn’t work out in the share of the population those countries represent.

    Times of India seems to have got the data from here but I’m not sure what that source is. Taking it at face value, Indonesia and India average about 77, and that’s about 1/3 of the world’s population. But only about 7% of the world should have an IQ that low.

  8. As reported by the Times of India; 11/6/2024 Guatemala has an average IQ of 47.72.

    I have spent a fair amount of time in Guatemala, from a drilling rig in the jungle, to tourism to visiting friends. That average IQ of 47.72, which indicates barely educable, is utter nonsense.

    I do wonder where the suspect, Sebastian Zapeta-Calil, is from in Guatemala. My guess is from the lowlands (Zapata or Pacific coast, for example), not from the highlands.

  10. The victim’s name is Amelia Carter. She was a 29-year-old doctoral student at the University of Pennsylvania. In one of the videos posted here, you can see a policeman walk by her burning body like nothing was happening.

  11. @newlangsyne:you can see a policeman walk by her burning body like nothing was happening.

    It’s also odd she’s just standing there. I confess I have never seen anyone burn alive and so I don’t know what to expect, but I didn’t expect that. Drowning people don’t drown like in the movies and people sometimes look right at them, not knowing they are drowning, but I am very surprised that she’s not doing anything when she’s on fire.

    I think it’s going to be a while before there are enough hard facts to understand what happened. And like the Las Vegas shooter it just may never make sense.

  12. It’s not surprising that it is hard to get solid statistics on racial, ethnic, or national average IQs.

    Research on this topic is basically verboten.

    Even Dr.Jordan Peterson’s take on IQ, as deeply researched by the U.S. military, that in general anyone with an IQ of less than 83 is basically untrainable—is, I would think, very unwelcome.

    P.S.—According to Peterson, that
    I.Q. of 83 or less figure works out to 10% of the population.

  14. You can see the major public policy issues raised–but it looks like ignored–by this 83 I.Q. figure.

  15. that in general anyone with an IQ of less than 83 is basically untrainable
    ==
    Which is nonsense.

  16. Art Deco:
    Ain’t necessarily so.
    Depends on what tasks are at issue.
    I’ll take Jordan Peterson’s opinions over yours, since I know his credentials but not yours, though yours are expressed with clarity and vigor.

  17. Telephone pole. Nails. Hammer. Some assembly required.

    I am SO tired of putting up with evil homicidal maniacs. Make an example of him in the middle of Times Square. And while he squirming up there he should have an IV to keep him hydrated and infection free. Keep him alive as long as possible.

    I want the bastard to SUFFER. No nice clean painless death from a needle.

    Now. Is Friedrich right? Is the Abyss looking back into me?

  20. I got the maggot was a illegal almost right away yet until I read the comments here had no idea about the woman victim. Was assuming it was a vagrant possibility drugged or passed out, not that even a person in that situation deserves a horrible death.
    Sundowner is letting off death row inmates but would volunteer a 45acp round to end this guy’s existence.

  21. Well regarding IQ and trainability we are comming out of four years of FJB so don’t underestimate the usefullness of the less gifted. If Brandon up to the average Guatamalan level of cognition?

  23. What is the most disappointing and outraging is that nothing is being said about the victim, although her identity is known. A PhD student? A productive member of society, with perhaps a promising future? Or is there more to the story? Doesn’t look as if this will be shared, although the underlying theme of social / civilizational collapse seems to be the preference for coverage, and not just on the part of the perp – but of law enforcement casually walking by the flaming victim and apparently not taking much heed. NYC, the city of the future……..

  24. I’ll take Jordan Peterson’s opinions over yours, since I know his credentials but not yours, though yours are expressed with clarity and vigor.
    ==
    I’ll refer you to Edward Banfield’s commentary on this subject, penned more than 50 years ago. IIRC, they are in The Unheavenly City Revisited.
    ==
    Linda Gottfriedson doesn’t say people in thar range are untrainable. (Her preferred characterization is ‘near the lower bound of ready employability’).
    ==
    You are all asserting that 13% of the population cannot be trained to do anything. That would amount to 27 million working-aged persons. The number of working -aged persons who are (1) inmates, (2) vagrants, or (3) on the SSI roles is about 8 million. I’ve no idea where Dr. Peterson fancies the rest of them are hiding out.

  25. Why does everyone believe this Guatemalan guy did it? Is there a witness? Video?

    Yes and yes. Multiple witnesses and video.

    As to the victim, something doesn’t add up. A UPenn PhD student? I read in one story she was sleeping. Not blaming the victim here in any way, but that seems a bit odd, though it maybe explains how she was fatally burned before she could react. But it’s still hard to fathom. I would think anyone whose clothes catch fire would know almost instinctively to roll on the ground to put the flames out. Maybe she was intoxicated? But at 7:30am?

  26. This murder and that of Brian Thompson make me a bit wistful for the days of public hangings. There are also many current and former “public servants” for whom they would be appropriate.
    —————————————————————
    I hate to think about this, but I’m puzzled how someone would burn without being dowsed with an accelerant. Aren’t clothes fire-resistant nowadays? One early report said the victim was surrounded by liquor bottles, and that she was sleeping. Could alcohol in her system acted as an accelerant?

  27. Vicious transformation of the US military…
    (Another “Biden” achievement! No doubt one of his most important…)

    “DEI & The Death Of Effective Military Command”—
    https://www.zerohedge.com/military/dei-death-effective-military-command

    Another huge mess for Trump to have to clean up.
    – – – – – – –
    Speaking of things to clean up (alas, the list is endless…)
    Presenting: The “Toxification Gambit”:
    https://instapundit.com/692257/

  28. Mercy to the barbaric is cruelty to the civilized.

    There’s an ancient expression from the Talmud: “Those who are kind to the cruel, in the end will be cruel to the kind.” It applies here, and also to Biden’s commutation of the death sentences of those 37 murderers.

  29. The idea of a whole country of people with average IQs of 48 such as Guatemala or Equatorial Guinea is an alien concept to most, who often cling to the dubious assertion that “a proper sampling was never taken”. More likely, “proper sampling” of these countries is now verboten precisely because it will confirm these low numbers.

    If you haven’t worked with people with very low IQs or God forbid, had to teach or train them, then it is really hard to wrap your mind around what you’re dealing with. When people think of someone with an IQ of 48, they envision someone with severe genetic abnormalities (like those with Down syndrome) which are associated with physical ailments as well. They can’t picture someone who they may know who is always smiling, friendly, and communicative as also possessing a 48 IQ.

    People with normal to above-average IQs tend to project their own mindsets onto those with subnormal IQs. They can’t envision that there isn’t anything going on in their minds beyond, “Press this button to turn on machine. Place the black tube in front of leaves. Blow leaves off the sidewalk.” These individuals do not fathom why their employer may want leaves to be removed from a walkway, they just know that moving these leaves earns them money for food. When driving, they, like what you think of as small children, can understand the concept of “red means stop, green means go” but are incapable of learning more or realizing the significance of other traffic signs, lane markers, or the concept of crosswalks, hence the constant moving violations committed by people with low IQs who have been granted drivers licenses by the state.

  30. Excess murder, torture-torture.

    Send the perp to Planned Perphood or its ideological partner where rehabilitation rites are performed with empathetic advocacy.

  31. who often cling to the dubious assertion that “a proper sampling was never taken

    Because that has never happened.

    Science!

    Sweeping generalizations rule.

  32. Guatemala? Mexico is not a good faith international actor. That said, he could have just as easily been transported by Biden at our expense through immigration reform. Her death was collateral damage in the pursuit of social progress. American Civil Liberties Unburdened

  33. Methinks we’re confusing apples and oranges here.
    Sigh.
    Many serial killers (and persons of less stellar repute) have been, in fact, geniuses.)

    What we ARE witnessing, though—with the implementation of THE ENTIRETY OF “BIDEN”s (and friends’) socio-political-“legalistic” zeitgeist—is the INTENTIONAL coarsening and weakening of the body politic, of the state and ALL its institutions, of the media, of education—at ALL levels—of the FAMILY and, most critically, of ANY ELEMENT—and POSSIBILITY—OF TRUST and HOPE WITHIN SOCIETY…yes, INTENTIONALLY…so as to weaken and ultimately destroy—i.e., FUNDAMENTALLY TRANSFORM(TM)—the US and the entire WESTERN WORLD.

    Which is why, to be sure, Trump must be destroyed and his supporters put in their place…along with certain Zionist countries.

  34. neo:

    You forgot to live “evil,” which not that same as psychopath (although the two may overlap).

    Did he know what he did was against the law (i.e. did he know what he did was wrong?), and did he understand the consequences of his actions?

    If the answer to both or either is “yes,” then he had agency. Which means he’s evil. The question of whether or not he’s psychopath is secondary, and really irrelevant.

  35. Correction to preceding: “You forgot to list “evil,” which is not the same as psychopath. . . .”

  36. The idea of a whole country of people with average IQs of 48 such as Guatemala or Equatorial Guinea is an alien concept to most,
    ==
    It’s also bizarre. Richard Lynn, the Irish psychometrician who fancied his instruments were valid for cross-national comparisons and the key to understanding the process of economic development, did not make such a claim. In Lynn’s rendering, the part of the world with the lowest median IQ scores was equatorial Africa, where they tended to by shy of 70. Keep in mind what you’re asserting when you say the median IQ is 48. You’re saying that 75% of the population consists of people who would be in the bottom 1% of the distribution in the United States and would qualify for disability benefits on their IQ score alone. (They would be in the bottom 1% of the black American distribution as well).

  37. The idea of a whole country of people with average IQs of 48 such as Guatemala or Equatorial Guinea is an alien concept to most

    Because it contradicts the definition of IQ: mean 100, standard deviation 15.

    An IQ of 48 is 3.5 standard deviations below the mean. Only 0.026% of the population should have a score lower than that, and if Guatemala’s average IQ really is 48, we’re saying that Guatemala has something like half its population lower than that.

    The world population is about 8.2 billion. 0.026% of that is 2.1 million. The population of Guatemala is 18.5 million. Even if every single person in the world of IQ 48 and lower lived in Guatemala it could not average 48, even is every person of low IQ lived there leaving no one left over for all the other countries with low IQs.

    Therefore, something is wrong with how IQ is being normed, or something is wrong with how IQ is measured in Guatemala. If IQ were normed worldwide so that mean is 15 and standard is 100, Guatemala’s IQ, even if all the absolutely lowest IQ people in the world lived there would have to be somewhere around 60 – 70, just based on their share of world population–and then the rest of the world would then average significantly higher than 100.

  38. Starting from the bottom, the lowest IQ person in the world, the P < 1 / 8.2 billion, has an IQ of 5.0. The next lowest has an IQ of 6.6. These two together have a mean IQ of 5.8.

    Extend this to the bottom ten people, the highest IQ person would have a score of 10.5 and the average of the bottom 10 would be 8.6.

    Extend this to the bottom hundred people, the highest IQ would be 16.3 and the average for the bottom 100 would be 13.9.

    Extend this to the bottom 1000 people, the highest IQ score would 22.6 and the average for the bottom 1000 would be 19.9.

    Repeat this a bunch more times, and you find that the largest population country that could possibly have a 48 mean IQ could only have 14.5 million people, they would have to be all the lowest IQ people in the world, and the highest IQ person in that country would have an score of 56.2.

  40. Regarding people with very low IQ, graterol, wrote, “…it is really hard to wrap your mind around what you’re dealing with.”

    If handy, could you, or anyone else, please suggest some reading to help me understand.

    Thanks!

  41. The Amelia Carter story I noted yesterday was a hoax, corrected in the link included in my comment above. Sorry for the false identity. Apparently, the victim is still unidentified.

  42. It’s usually wisest to wait for hard facts. A lot of people have now internalized a false narrative because they thought a 29-year-old PhD student was the victim, and some of them will go to their graves remembering it that way….

  43. No woman, a vagrant, PhD candidate, or other, deserves to burn to death on the subway. Her identity, if ever established, won’t make me think it was okay, no matter what her life story was.

  44. It appears “Amelia Carter” is an incorrect identification

    Also that the cop walking by may be AI generated.

  45. It’s going to be interesting to see how much is left of this story by the time facts come out, and what kind of story it really is.

  46. In re the revisions to the victim ID, etc: the 72-hour-rule reigns supreme.
    Three days plus a day off for Christmas: the soonest we can get reasonably accurate information is Thursday.

    Not a very merry Christmas for the family of the victim, whoever she may be.

  47. AppleBetty–

    Here are some videos in which Dr. Jordan Peterson discusses various aspects of I.Q. and it’s unfortunate immutability-

    See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8F7tjmy_U

    See also https://enhancingbrain.com/what-kind-of-job-fits-your-iq-by-jordan-peterson/

    See also https://tammy.ai/keypoints/science/ethics-in-science/uncovering-the-truth-about-intelligence

    and https://www.podgist.com/jordan-b-peterson-podcast/245-the-uncomfortable-truth-behind-economic-inequality-jordan-peterson-glenn-loury/index.html

  48. From his personal experience in dealing with and training clients with very low I.Q.’s, Peterson says that someone with a very low I.Q (in the low 80’s?) would have an extremely hard time even learning–after long hours of arduous training–to perform a simple task like correctly folding a sheet of paper and, then, stuffing it an envelope.

    Given this, from Peterson’s discussion and outline of what is currently known about I.Q., it seems to me that someone with an I.Q. in the 40s would very likely be institutionalized, since they would very likely not be able to take care of themselves, nor hold any kind of job.

    Thus, I think that this 40’s I.Q. figure is incorrect.

  49. Snow on Pine, thank you very much! I’ll view those videos.

    I found the following, Clinical Characteristics of Intellectual Disabilities, at https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK332877/

    DSM-IV Criteria: Approximate IQ range 50–69
    DSM-5 Criteria: Can live independently with minimum levels of support
    AAIDD* Criteria: Intermittent support needed during transitions or periods of uncertainty.

    Approximate IQ range 36–49
    Independent living may be achieved with moderate levels of support, such as those available in group homes.
    Limited support needed in daily situations.

    Approximate IQ range 20–35
    Requires daily assistance with self-care activities and safety supervision.
    Extensive support needed for daily activities.

    * AAIDD = American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities

  50. As Peterson points out, as our society becomes ever more high tech, fast paced, and complex, people with very low IQ’s will find it harder and harder to keep up, find a steady job, and have a satisfactory life.

    Ten percent or more of the population with an I.Q. in the low eighties or less—given the current U.S. population— works out to 30 million or more people.

    If the evaluation of those with I.Q.’s 83 or lower and the massive numbers of people in this category here in the U.S. are correct, this is a massive public policy issue which has apparently been totally ignored.

  51. There are some things which our leaders/society at large, does not want to know, to take cognizance of.

    The simple solution is to just not collect publicly available statistics on a subject.

    Case in point, several decades ago, I tried to find solid statistics on the percentage of those here in the U.S. who were illiterate, and I could not find any reliable statistics.

    Yes, there statistics put out by various groups concerned with literacy, but since they each had “a dog in this hunt,” I didn’t consider them objective enough to be considered authoritative.

    Other sources were playing around with the definition of “illiterate.”

    Could you only be considered “illiterate” if you could neither read nor write, or could you be just “functionally illiterate” and just get by, faking it, but not able, say, to read and understand the newspaper, or to read and understand the wording in a contract needed to get a credit card, or buy a car, or a house, or write a coherent “ letter to the editor.”

    Another set of good, comprehensive statistics I was never able to find, back then, was just how many instances there were, each year, of handgun owners successfully defending themselves, or stopping a crime.

    Hopefully, things are better now.

  52. P.S. If you don’t ask the questions, you’ll never get the answers, and that’s the whole point of not asking the questions, not making what you find available to the public, and/or “publishing” your results, but making them unintelligible by employing a lot of technical jargon and/or by burying them in some obscure publication or corner of the Internet which very few people are likely to ever find.

  53. Thanks, Snow on Pine.

    I asked perplexity.ai about this, and got:

    “People with an IQ of around 85, which is at the lower end of the normal range, face distinct challenges but can lead productive lives. Here’s a comprehensive look at their experiences in the US:

    “Employment and Income: They tend to work in unskilled or low-skilled labor positions; face more limited occupational opportunities compared to those with higher IQs; may experience higher rates of poverty (16% live in poverty compared to 6% of those with average IQ).

    “Education: Higher dropout rates from high school (35% compared to 6% of those with average IQ); may require more time and effort to learn new skills; can succeed academically with proper support and determination.

    “Social and Daily Life: Often develop their own methods for handling tasks and overcoming challenges; can maintain relationships and social connections; may need more time to process complex information; can succeed professionally through strong work ethic and social skills

    “Challenges: May struggle with complex cognitive tasks; higher risk of experiencing financial difficulties; more likely to need social support services; face increased vulnerability to stress and mental health issues.

    “Can compensate for cognitive challenges through: Strong work ethic; development of practical skills; social capabilities; common sense; determination.

    “It’s important to note that IQ is just one measure of capability, and individuals with lower IQ scores can achieve success through other strengths and abilities. Many develop effective coping strategies and excel in areas that rely on practical skills rather than abstract reasoning.”

    The principle references were:
    — https://www.reddit.com/r/AskSocialScience/comments/jn93lc/placecapability_of_people_with_low_iq_in_society/
    — https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/aj9xf/by_request_i_have_an_iq_of_85_amaa/
    (reddit, but seemingly a serious discussion)

  54. Thanks for your posts, Snow on Pine. Thoughtfully enlarging the discussion here.
    Re Art Deco and great oral on IQ, I’d like to add what Jordan Peterson memorably impressed upon me.

    Peterson worked with a man of the functional borderline type (below 83, I believe, the US military’s cut off for utility).

    He imagined a test of employability/unemployability spent on subject by first identifying the lowest level valuable task he might do for an organisation.

    Therefore, he spent a considerable amount of time trying to train him in the childhood skill of tri-folding a standard size piece of paper, suitable for enveloping and mailing.

    PETERSON DISCOVERED THAT IT COULD NOT BE DONE.
    Sometimes, reality really is a bitch.

  55. P.S. Burying the data.

    If I remember correctly, several years ago I ran across an analysis which pointed out that some researcher had shoveled out a whole ton of “bafflegab,” by presenting his results in deliberately distorted, impeneterable charts and graphs within which he hid his data.

  56. From the videos I’ve seen it looks like someone dressed like a cop passed by the open subway car door, where you could apparently clearly see the women was on fire–burning alive–and that person just kept on going.

  58. PETERSON DISCOVERED THAT IT COULD NOT BE DONE.
    ==
    You fancy there are 27 million adults in the country who cannot fold a piece of paper? Buy my bridge.

  59. As Peterson points out, as our society becomes ever more high tech, fast paced, and complex, people with very low IQ’s will find it harder and harder to keep up, find a steady job, and have a satisfactory life.
    ==
    See Edward Banfield on this subject. Public intellectuals have been peddling this bilge for two generations.
    ==
    Technology is getting more complex. The steps to be applied for a consumer to make use of technology are not, btw.

  60. Slashings of strangers in public places, “drivebys” and shoot outs in public venues, and on our streets, the “knock out” game, people using cars to deliberately run people over, brazen Tik Tok “Pranksters”–invading people’s homes, assaulting them, or pouring substances over them for clicks, people shoved in front of subway cars, and now burnt to death, shoplifting–not only by individuals, but by organized, large groups of dozens of people who are really just looters–like a plague of locusts–who, in a frenzy, sometimes loot/sack an entire store, destroying what they cannot take, brazen, smash and grab robberies, crazy people (also often on drugs) wandering our streets, harassing, and sometimes attacking people, defecating in public, and getting into all sorts of trouble, living in squalid, rodent, drug, and disease ridden encampments which have grown up in many of our major cities, etc.,etc.

    There is a sense of permissiveness in the air–“defund the police,” sue the police, the sovereign citizen movement, the treatment of Daniel Penny, tear down the statues of our formerly honored predecessors, massive handouts to illegals and the “homeless,” drug laws “reformed” or eliminated, sanctuary cities, decriminalizing some thefts/lawbreaking, while penalizing self-defense–banning certain pistols and rifles, making it difficult for a law-abiding citizen to get a weapon permit to defend himself and his family or business and, more and more frequently, it seems, prosecuting those who do use justified violence to defend themselves and their families and businesses, etc.,etc.

    Add this permissiveness to mental illness, drug use, general criminality, and criminal illegal aliens, and our society is in deep trouble.

  61. P.S.–Of course, you can say,”it was always thus” but, old as I am at 80, I can remember when it wasn’t “thus.”

  62. P.P.S.–A very facile come back to my catalogue of dysfunction above is that the things which I enumerated above were always happening in the past, but it’s just that, with the enormous expansion in communication, and our access to a wide range of national news, we are now much more aware of what has always been going on our society.

    My reply is, I know what the general atmosphere of our society felt like back then, and I know what it feels like today, and they are two very different different things.

    Here is another item to add to my list above–yesterday a month old baby in a diaper and in an infant seat was left on a median strip of a busy street in Colorado. Apparently the police have located “the family” and are “in communication” with them.*

    I’d have hauled them all in for questioning.

    * See https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2024/12/one-month-old-baby-left-median-busy-colorado/

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