Comments

Those sleepy prison guards — 61 Comments

1. I want there to have been no conspiracy. I strongly suspect there to have been a conspiracy of some sort. I fear there will never be made public evidence to firmly convince me that: 1) there was no conspiracy, and 2) he did kill himself.

2. “Talk about something conducive to conspiracy theories! Even a person not temperamentally inclined in that direction can be forgiven for being doubtful that such incompetence occurred.”

   Exactly.

   “The average salary for a correctional officer inside of a Federal Bureau of Prisons facility — such as the MCC where Epstein was held — is on average $52,481.00 per year or roughly $25.23 per hour …”

   What does this factoid have to do with the question at hand? Are we supposed to freak-out about these poor, under-paid guards? “Well, of course they are going to fail at their assigned task: look at how underpaid they are.”

   The way it’s worded, I strongly suspect that at this particular prison, the guards are paid considerably more than $25.23 per hour.

   “Several workers at MCC are forced to work almost twice as long as typical 40 hour work weeks, with some officers seeing 60 to 70 hours per workweek …”

   In other words, 40 hours per week at $25.23 (or more) per hour, and 10-20 hours at $37.85 (or more) per hour.

   “Our staff is severely overworked,” explained Gregg. “It wasn’t a matter of how it happened or it happening, but it was only a matter of time for it to happen. It was inevitable.”

   Who ever heard of a union, much less a public employees union, *not* raising a ruckus about something they considered intolerable.

   ===============
   Earlier this year, for 2 1/2 months, I worked at a job where I worked seven days per week; averaging above 55 hours per week. It wasn’t intolerable … and that sweet, sweet over-time made it worthwhile.

3. oops …. “and [20-30] hours at $37.85 (or more) per hour.“

4. There is still no adequate explanation for how a suicide in such a cell might have been brought about, with Epstein supposedly killing himself by slumping forward with a sheet attached to the top bunk (this would be difficult to accomplish, and it raises the question of why he would have been allowed sheets that could be used in such a manner). In addition, there has apparently been only one suicide in the last several decades at the MCC (which has housed many terrorists and drug traffickers of great importance), not to mention the recent re-assignment of the warden. Surely, the official explanation is seeming more and more dubious.

5. Ilion:

   I think the salaries were just offered as a fact. That’s what they make on average.

   In New York, by the way, that amount doesn’t go very far.

   I don’t think the salaries are especially relevant—the more important part would be the hours.

6. I hope they’re paid more than that in NYC; one can hardly live in NYC on $52,000 per year.

7. Of course there’s going to be some kind of a story, however unsatisfactory. That said, from so far outside I have no realistic ambition of seeing or deducing anything meant to be obscured. It helps “them” that since it seems unlikely Trump would be involved the MSM should lose interest soon or at the first “Look! a squirrel!” moment available.

8. So, maybe we’ll never know. But it’s certainly telling that a lot of people think the Clintons are somehow behind this. The Babylon Bee, probably the best source of satire at present, is taking no chances. To-wit: we-would-like-to-state-for-the-record-that-hillary-clinton-is-an-upstanding-citizen-and-a-fine-human-being

9. “In New York, by the way, that amount doesn’t go very far.”

   Which is why I expect that at *that* prison, the wage is considerably higher.

   “I think the salaries were just offered as a fact.”

   Sure … but that fact has no relevance to the issue.

   “I don’t think the salaries are especially relevant—the more important part would be the hours.”

   Agreed. And double shifts would get exhausting quickly.

   So, once again … who ever heard of a public employees union not raising a ruckus over conditions they considered intolerable?

10. “There is still no adequate explanation for how a suicide in such a cell might have been brought about, with Epstein supposedly killing himself by slumping forward with a sheet attached to the top bunk (this would be difficult to accomplish …”

    Exactly.

    If a person tries to kill himself by asphyxiation, he has to ensure that he can’t stop the process once his body’s natural (and inevitable) panic-reflex over-rides his intellectual assent to the asphyxiation.

11. Kate,

    A large percentage of workers, be it NYPD, DOCS, Federal Correctons, etc. making that kind of money don’t actually live in the city but commute from elsewhere. They also usually have a spouse who works. Or if they don’t have a spouse, they have roommates.

    I’ve been watching the news rather closely regarding this as I work in the NYS Court System (though not within the City) and have many friends and colleagues (and relatives) within the NYC DOCS, NYS DOCCS and the Federal Corrections system. I also work with a number of retired or former NYS DOCCS and NYC DOCS people (its very common to come to my agency from those agencies: we pay better). And they have absolutely no shortage of opinions here.

    Neo took the words out of my mouth when she said “Talk about something conducive to conspiracy theories! Even a person not temperamentally inclined in that direction can be forgiven for being doubtful that such incompetence occurred.”

    I am not temperamentally inclined to believe conspiracy theories, except those proven by historical record and documented. One could say that the history of the world is the history of conspiracies. It’s just that the real conspiracies throughout history aren’t the ‘sexy’ X-Files, Oliver Stone kind.

    I have to say though, that as the circumstances become more clear and the irregularities pile up, I can feel myself being swung over into another category: Open to the Idea of Conspiracy. At least here.

    For what its worth, two former Corrections guys I work with say that there are just two many irregularities/instances of incompetence in Epstein’s case. One of them worked in that very facility at one time. He thinks I am crazy for doubting the conspiracy angle at this time.

12. Too splendid not to share. If only the somnolent guards had known this life-affirming quality of their guest.

    Besides, imagine the guards trying to sleep with this vision on their brains! Why, never, never, never.

13. Most high profile person confined in a Federal Prison and he has a guard and a half or something totally responsible for his area right after the release of names of high-profile, wealthy people being put a risk with more to come in his trial and there is no money or man-power to do a decent job of tending to the sustained health of a person who had recently had a close call with death. However some how the Federal government had enough money to spend over $30 million on a wild goose chase to pull down a sitting president and we are supposed to think this is an acceptable answer.

    The understaffed, overworked, underpaid, story sounds like a lot of transfer of blame that I don’t buy at all. The whole thing smells up and down the ladder of responsibility and if the situation was indeed this half-assed then I would start with firing the head of the Federal corrections and each subordinate all the way down the the half trained guard.

    As said above, I want to accept the most obvious fact that Epstein just too k the chance and did himself in, without having a nanny-cam in his room, left alone, by himself with bunk beds and a sheet so he would have access to the materials to kill himself but there are too many coincidences in this go around.

    Last thing, I have read he was spending 12 hours per day working with his defense attorneys and from what I know, personally about people contemplating suicide they tend to withdraw and live more within themselves since there is no reason to make further plans.

    The whole thing is crap.

14. “The officers guarding Epstein, 66, were working extreme overtime according to a source speaking to The Associated Press. At least one of the officers was on his fifth straight day of overtime while another was working mandatory overtime to compensate for the staffing shortage on the morning of Epstein’s demise.

    Several workers at MCC are forced to work almost twice as long as typical 40 hour work weeks, with some officers seeing 60 to 70 hours per workweek according to Serene Gregg, ”

    Notice also that the reports don’t actually say that *these particular* union members were among those “forced to work almost twice as long as typical 40 hour work weeks, with some officers seeing 60 to 70 hours per workweek “.

    Rather, the reportage says, “[at] least one of the officers was on his fifth straight day of overtime while another was working mandatory overtime” … which is a very different situation from that implied in the next paragraph.

15. The authorities if honest will investigate whether any employee at the prison has suddenly come into a lot of money… if not, it increases the likelihood that an overworked staff just dropped the ball.

16. “The average salary for an officer in an FBoP …”

    You mean, in Alderson, or Bastrop, or Butner, or Glynco, or Oklahoma City, or Yazoo City, or one of the other 129 FBoPs? The Manhattan guys and gals probably earned a bit more than average. Plus tons of overtime. Please pay no attention to the lavish healthcare and retirement packages.

    So we are supposed to believe that because fatigue, and incompetence, and sleazy practices are normal at this facility, we should expect to see these mishaps occurring with some frequency. Like one previous suicide in 40 years.

    Maybe that one suicide was last month after new management came in? Nope, it was 21 years ago when Louis Turra hanged himself, … with a bedsheet, … after a previous unsuccessful suicide attempt, … while undergoing psych evaluation. Sound familiar?

    Mr. Turra was a Philly mobster drug trafficker. Can’t imagine why anyone would want him dead.

    I do think it is reasonably possible to hang yourself on your knees, if you ensure that your knees don’t slide backwards when you pass out.

    My most likely scenario is that Epstein paid his lawyers a ton of money, and they in turn paid others, so that Epstein could commit suicide. A more remote possibility is that if Epstein really cared about anyone other than himself, e.g. Ms. Maxwell, threats against them could have motivated his “assisted suicide.”

17. Okay. The guards are tired. That’s what the officer of the guard is for. He tours the guard points, checking, making sure the guys are alert.
    So, as long as the guys are tired….somebody should be checking on them, more than once every three hours.
    Didn’t happen.
    Ought to have been happening routinely. Especially when Epstein
    .(EPSTEIN!!!) brought a pile of unknown baggage with him.

18. Can’t find it now, of course, but one post I read this week suggested three possibilities: actual incompetence (of a most stunning level); murder outright; and (not improbable to any history, or mystery, fan) a carefully orchestrated deliberate incompetence.

    I’m leaning toward the last one.

19. I’ll be interested in the toxicology report.
    I could imagine a person taking pills with a sheet tied around their neck ready to slump forward the moment they became unconscious.I know it’s just another conspiracy theory but it happened some way.

20. I’m sorry, but stupidity/incompetence/whatever wears thin. Just as the “I don’t remember/I can’t recall” answers from–say, Hillary’s–testimony.
    Too many people are involved to keep this secrets. Guards put on administrative leave? That’s one sweet way to get out of mandatory overtime. Really? Unions buy that? Sounds like a class action law suit for the prisoners to me.

21. The FBI better check to see if these guards have cryptocurrency accounts. Also get a search warrant to see if they have gold coins or diamonds somewhere.

22. He either self-aborted, or since he was no longer viable, the patrons of his wares aborted him. Perfectly ethical.

23. “I do think it is reasonably possible to hang yourself on your knees, if you ensure that your knees don’t slide backwards when you pass out.”

    Not unless you also ensure that you can’t simply stand up and remove the sheet from you neck after the automatic asphyxiation-panic starts.

24. “I’ll be interested in the toxicology report.

    I could imagine a person taking pills with a sheet tied around their neck ready to slump forward the moment they became unconscious.

    I know it’s just another conspiracy theory but it happened some way.”

    Yes, something along those lines *has* to be the explanation for a suicide by hanging-from-a-bunkbed.

    If the cause of death was indeed as we are being told, then he *had* to already be unconscious before the carbon-dioxide level in his lungs became high enough to trigger the panic-reflex.

    And that implies that someone smuggled some drug to him.

25. The Wallpaper of Record.

26. Several workers at MCC are forced to work almost twice as long as typical 40 hour work weeks, with some officers seeing 60 to 70 hours per workweek according to Serene Gregg, the president of the American Federation of Government Employees Local 3148, who spoke with the Washington Post Opens a New Window. .

    Cue Mandy Rice-Davies.

27. I doubt that any of the other commentators here have been in prison. I have. I spent a little over a year in Texas jails and prison and dealing with guards hourly.

    The average prison guard is below average in every way. In a group of below average people, the guards would be below average, 10 to 25 percentiles. These are the people when we were in school, who if we even paid attention to them, we laughed at and wondered how they could even get a job. They got jobs as prison guards if they couldn’t get jobs as janitors or garbage collectors.

    That Jeffrey Epstein could kill himself and not be noticed for hours is more than probable, but likely. The typical guard is lazy and doing only what he has to do. If he can sleep on the job and not get caught, he will. If something bad happens, his first instinct is to lie and falsify the record. I doubt that the two men guarding him even knew who Epstein was.

    Remember, people who work for the government are generally stupid and incompetent. Never blame malevalence for something that can be explained by incompentence.

    Particularly, remember that when the Democrats suggest that the government can make the health care system better.

28. Another comment for those wondering how Epstein could use a bedsheet. Look on the internet, there are lots of websites describing how to kill yourself. Its real easy.

29. Former.
    Given all that you say about the guards themselves, higher must have had a clue. But they didn’t stir themselves to make sure Epstein was watched.

30. AND, there is still the fact that we are being told that he hanged himself from a *bunk-bed*.

    That is simply not possible unless he were somehow made incapable of freeing himself once the carbon-dioxide level in his lungs *compelled* him to start struggling to breathe.

31. Ilion:

    As I explained in earlier threads, people can indeed kill themselves that way if very determined.

    People can also voluntarily drown themselves, as did Virginia Woolf, by filling her pockets with stones and walking into the river.

    This was written in 2005:

    However, hanging can also occur with the person kneeling, sitting, or half lying, from a relatively low point of suspension such as a doorknob or bedpost. The weight of the chest and arms is enough to provide fatal pressure on the neck; suspension of the whole body is not necessary.

32. Sorry Ilion, absolutely wrong. There are literally thousands of suicides done exactly as Epstein did. Tie one end of a torn bedsheet to the bunk bed, tie the other end around your neck, sag your legs so you pitch forward, you can’t regain your footing because you are pitched forward, you choke. You have less than a minute before you pass out. Check the internet.

    Aubrey,

    Higher ups are as incompetent as the guards. The higher ups are selected from the guards and are in the perhaps 30 percentile range as far as IQ goes. By working for the government, really stupid people can get into positions of responsibility.

    From the news reports, its pretty obvious that the watch commander or his assistants, if they were on duty, didn’t check on the guards.

    The higher ups were also responsible for training, another failure. Until you have been in the system, you can’t believe how stupid and incompentent prison staff are.

33. What? Did Epstein not have arms?

34. We’re not talking about an average prison, but a Federal Bureau of Prisons jail. And it just isn’t any FBoP jail, it’s likely the premier FBoP jail.

    MCC New York houses approximately 700 male & female federal inmates, pretrial detainees, probation violators and those charged with Federal Crimes in U.S. District Court for the Southern District of New York going through the trial process, awaiting sentencing, or been denied bail by a Federal Judge and deemed a flight risk or threat to the community.

    There might be some particular reason why they put El Chapo in this Manhattan FBoP, but I suspect it was because it is the most secure, of the 135.

35. “As I explained in earlier threads, people can indeed kill themselves that way if very determined.”

    I guess I must have missed how you explained how someone who has not taken steps to render himself incapable of aborting this particular sort of death is able to continue with the suicide once his body over-rides his will.

    There is a *reason* a person cannot hold his breath untill he passes out, much less until he suffocates. There is a *reason* a person cannot strangle himself with his bare hands.

    “People can also voluntarily drown themselves, as did Virginia Woolf, by filling her pockets with stones and walking into the river.”

    Exactly my point — she took steps to ensure that once her body’s will to live (as it were) over-rode her intellect’s will to die, she’d be highly ulikely to be able to save herself. She took steps to endure that when she reached the physiological state at which her body *demanded* that she breath, there was no air to breath.

    Also, isn’t drowning is a bit different from asphyxiation, in physiological terms?

    “However, hanging can also occur with the person kneeling, sitting, or half lying, from a relatively low point of suspension such as a doorknob or bedpost. The weight of the chest and arms is enough to provide fatal pressure on the neck; suspension of the whole body is not necessary.”

    Are you even *reading* what I’ve written? In no way did I dispute this.

    All that I am disputing is the implied claim that a 6-foot (or so) man can strangle himself with a bedsheet tied to a bunkbed when merely standing up will stop the strangulation.

36. Perhaps he had also — somehow — tied his hands behind his back, such that after pitching forward, he couldn’t use his hands either to push himself upright to regain his feet, or to grasp the sheet and haul himself to his feet..

    But the reports have not indicated that.

37. Perhaps the end of the sheet tied around his neck was tied in such a way that when the carbon-dioxide induced panic set in, he’d be highly unlikely to be able to free himself enough to draw a new breath.

    But the reports make it sound as though it were a simple, “Let’s see: tie that end up there, tie this end around my neck, slump forward … good to go!”

    And I can’t buy that.

38. Washington Post just came out saying autopsy report revealed broken bones in Epstein’s neck. So here we go.

39. 1. If “overworked prison guard” is not an excuse then why do we keep hearing those words in media accounts? It’s an explanation, not an excuse, and it’s not even a good explanation. Not given how much Americans pay in taxes. We should have the most competent and effective prison system in the world given how much we pay into it. I reject it as an explanation as well as an excuse. It’s a way to dead-end the conversation. Oh well, overworked prison guard. Too bad. Maybe we can learn some lessons for next time. The end.
    2. I also am not appreciating the media trend where incompetence regarding “regular” prisoners is somehow understandable but not where Epstein is concerned. I reject that as well. All imprisoned people should be treated fairly and competently. [Insert cynical wisecrack here.] No, it’s not too much to ask. This country badly needs prison reform. It’s a microcosm of the reform that our government needs in general.

40. Today’s parcelled out information: broken neck bones = possible strangulation.
    Thanks, government-media complex.
    Looking forward to tomorrow’s update where we find out this is a false alarm and the broken bones were left over from the prior “suicide” attempt and were in the process of healing when this suicide attempt occurred. Blah blah blah. Continue whipsawing with contradicting facts until all but the most attentive lose interest and move on to other matters.

41. Oh well, overworked prison guard. Too bad. Maybe we can learn some lessons for next time. The end.

    Prison guards’ union is second only to the teachers’ union in CA.

42. Thr official story on this, as with all such events, is 100% government controlled (plus anonymous and sketchy leaks like this).

    So it’s an issue of trust. Who do you trust?How much do we trust what the government — at any level — tells us in 2019?

    Well, we all lived through endless lies *every* day for the last three years.

    The government (and the media but that’s another story) tied a rope to its credibility with a concrete block at the end and threw it off the bridge into the river. Trust once tossed aside is not easily regained.

    When we have nobody we can implicitly trust any more to be transparent with us, all bets are off.

43. Epstein’s last words have been discovered.

    “Hillary… What are you doing here ?”

44. The bedsheets in prisons are designed so they cannot be used to hang oneself. They are essentially made of paper. Nobody taking about the sheets.

45. “Prison guards’ union is second only to the teachers’ union in CA.”

    I know. I live here (in Cali). We are all just prisoners here. Of our own device.

46. Jeff Brokaw:

    Correct.

    Even a lot of people who used to trust the government don’t anymore. The last couple of years in particular have eroded that trust.

    And trust in the MSM is practically nil as well.

47. So, the autopsy report is in: Broken small bones in the neck. Signs of a struggle if ever there were any. Nevertheless, he had to have left an “insurance policy” with somebody. Of course, I understand that a good deal of documentary evidence has mysteriously vanished. “The man who knew too much.”

    Naturally, it’s Trump’s fault.

48. Michael F Adams:

    See this.

49. “Overworked” guards putting in lots of overtime? Isn’t this the standard method of increasing the income for the final few working years of any gov’t employee, in order to bump up pensions?

50. The City of Chicago is suing Jussie Smollett for $130,000 to recoup expenditures of the Chicago Police Department while investigating the Smollett hate-crime-fraud — as I will call it.

    Does anyone believe the Chicago Police had nothing better to do? That the CPD were sitting idle, so why not devote substantial resources to a case which didn’t pass the smell test?

    Instead the CPD diverted said substantial resources to the case because it was ultra-high-profile and if they didn’t they would suffer PR blowback if they ignored it.

    Forget the guards. That the higher-ups didn’t do anything is the tell. These are the people who care about their careers and they are looking pretty damn bad now. Why would they allow that to happen?

    neo goes on about Hanlon’s Razor:

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

    I say these eff-ups aren’t adequately explained by stupidity. Even stupid people are motivated by self-interest. Average and above-average people in hierarchies are motivated even more so.

    Why didn’t the superiors say, damn this month’s budget or whatever, get us resources so this Epstein perv doesn’t off himself on our watch — because it makes us look bad and might put a crimp on our retirement?

51. I’ve been in corporations and institutions. The people running things may not be especially smart or competent or moral, but they sure as hell care about their positions in the hierarchy and they will bend things every which way but loose to protect themselves.

52. huxley:

    And yet sometimes they manage to screw up nevertheless, and leave themselves open to huge criticism when it’s the last thing they wanted.

53. Huxley, yep. Bureaucrats serve the interests of their bureaucracy (*) … and they do that by protecting first their own pension-interest, and second, if needs must, the pension-interest of their superiors (**).

    There is too much about what we have been told that just doesn’t cohere. And on top of that, we *know* not only that the politicians lie to us, but that the bureaucrats lie to both the politicians and to us.

    (*) i.e. the permanent government, the core of the swamp and of the Deep State

    (**) whoever ends up being the fall guy, it’s almost always the case that the true blame lies at a higher level.

54. neo: Ah. But so many people, so high up, with so many reasons to “leave themselves open to huge criticism.”

    How many people have to screw up before that convenient Hanlon adverb “adequately” begins to become a problem?

    Is there a limit?

55. …so many reasons not to “leave themselves open to huge criticism.”

    I’m so bad with negatives and double-negatives. Then there’s the “nor” problem.

56. If something has been done long enough against protocol and requirements without serious blowback that it becomes SOP, the idea that maybe reverting to the required would be a good idea in a given case simply doesn’t occur.
    Following regulations or requirements tends to shift blame. Doing as you’re ordered isn’t a get out of jail free card, but it does implicate others–the ones who arranged for the requirements–who have fo justify it to clear themselves.
    It’s difficult to be the originator of a rule and sanction somebody for following it, or passing on a rule and sanctioning someone for following it. Or, difficult if there’s a third party ruling on it.
    All of that said, any sentient being should be able to take steps to cover his butt if the steps aren’t overly difficult.
    What, and I mean this literally, does it cost in terms of time, physical exertion, physical menace from sleepy guards, other duties delayed, to make sure the guards are awake?
    what was so important that checking a couple of extra times couldn’t fit in?

    On the other hand, the actual procedures, formal or informal, had worked for forty years. What about Epstein required something more than that which had served so well? What would occur to the guards or to supervision?

    I might feature somebody thinking that, since an assorted bunch of non-standard folks had passed through the facility for decades and only one had managed, what was Epstein going to do that was better than any and all of his predecessors? Somebody would profit by his death? Seen that before, check. Had great, insupportable remorse….well, maybe. Or maybe not, but check.Mentally ill–arent’ they all, check. Mobbed up? Check.

    Maybe even sloppy, sleepy, and overworked, they were more than good enough. Really good, in fact. Only one suicide in forty years. Beat that.

57. Most AMericans know conspiracies don’t exist. Except the lawyers who use conspiracies to charge crims with.

58. Also, judges apparently can use “that’s just conspiracy defense” to counter a prosecution’s conspiracy charge ,but I don’t think that works. A conspiracy theory is in itself not proven or false. The lawyers don’t need evidence for a conspiracy theory, what they need is the charge itself to stick.

    All you need is the charge to stick under reasonable behavior. What people mean by “conspiracy theories are false” or unbelievable, is that there is nothing evil or sinful or criminal going on.

    It’s just an accident the Titanic hit something or FDR=pearl Harbor, or Gulf of Tonkin, etc.

59. It’s an accident people died in Ruby Ridge. It was Occam’s Razor bureaucratic incompetence, an accidental tragedy, that happened in Waco 1, Waco 2, the IRS, Fast and Furious, and you know, everything else under the sun.

    Nothing to see here, peons, move on or the Friendly Park Rangers will smash your face in, veterans on public land.

60. The whole Conspiracy land and anti Conspiracy Land forces here and elsewhere are stuck in what I call a quagmire of disinformation, Russian NKVD style.

    The whole “conspiracy theory” thing was originally started by the CIA to cover up some conspiracies and secret covert operations of theirs. Because they didn’t want prosecutors or Congress critters to look at the evidence, they counter claimed that the whistle blowers were talking about a “huge conspiracy” that could not exist, like Iran Contra weapons or Benghazi style “stand down” orders. They CANNOT EXIST, SO SHUT UP CRAZY BOY GIRLS.

    Basically it worked with the help of the fake news media.

    But why would conspiracy theories have to be true or false, for there to be a crime or evil sh going on? That’s the disinformation and red herring. It doesn’t matter if there is a conspiracy or not or whether the theory is right or not.

    What matters is who the f is fking kids and selling sex slaves, right? Isn’t that what matters, not how big a “conspiracy” there is? You have to prove the crime first before you can attach that conspiracy charge. How you can be a conspirator to a crime that does not exist or hasn’t been proven?

    Can you conspire with your neighbor to clean up the local dog sh?

61. “Then there’s the “nor” problem.”

    Either … or ….

    Neither … nor …

    😉

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