Targeted assassinations and Zarqawi: he’s really most sincerely dead
As Alan Dershowitz quite rightly points out (via Solomonia), the manner of Zarqawi’s death is really no different from what is known as “targeted assassinations,” often condemned when performed by Israel, and yet in the case of Zarqawi roundly applauded throughout the Western world.
Why the distinction? The Dershowitz piece is short and doesn’t really attempt an analysis, except to say that the difference between the two acts appears to be that Israel can do no right in the eyes of many in the international community.
But, although I pretty much agree with Dershowitz that an enormous double standard is always applied to Israel, certainly the international community is not ordinarily in the habit of cutting the US much slack, either.
So I believe something additional is involved here, and that is the fact that Zarqawi was a terrorist whom even extreme leftists and Hamas apologists have had trouble wrapping their minds around. He resembled nothing more than the bogeyman, a figure of horrific brutality more appropriate to the nightmares of childhood.
And yet here he was, seeming to revel in his status as the biggest, baddest, meanest, most-sadistic sonofabitch in the world. With video to prove it. Only the furthest gone on the left (such as, unfortunately, Nicholas Berg’s father; see here for a transcript and discussion of Berg’s post-Zarqawi’s death interview) can find empathy for Zarqawi himself.
The terrorist mastermind targets of Israel’s bombs are for the most part faceless to most of us. Their propaganda machines are much slicker than Zarqawi’s, and their profiles are much lower. Zarqawi made the error of getting most of the world to hate him with great passion. It’s what he wanted, of course; but the consequence is that even most of those who condemn the same acts when committed by Israel can’t find it in their hearts to condemn this one.
The form the condemnation takes is rather, a bunch of “yes, buts…”, especially the idea that this killing won’t help–that, like the proliferating broomsticks in “The Sorcerer’s Apprentice” of Disney’s “Fantasia” (another archtypical child’s nightmare), striking down a terrorist only causes a thousand more to spring up in his place.
This is a statement of faith rather than a proven fact, but no matter; it makes good copy. My guess is that not too many have been inspired by the Z-man or the manner of his death, but I certainly cannot prove it.
But in news that has been somewhat overshadowed by Zarqawi’s death, it is appears that only hours after the announcement a stalemate was broken and three appointees of the new Iraqi government were approved by its legislature. Austin Bay is paying attention, however, and he has an excellent roundup of the positive strategic implications of Zarqawi’s death and of developments in the new government of that beleaguered country. These do not seem insignificant; please take a look.
So, once again: Ding-dong. He’s really most sincerely dead.
[Mayor]: As Mayor of the Munchkin City,
In the County of the Land of Oz,
I welcome you most regally.
[Barrister]: But we’ve got to verify it legally, to see
[Mayor]: To see?
[Barrister]: If she
[Mayor]: If she?
[Barrister]: Is morally, ethic’lly
[Father No.1]: Spiritually, physically
[Father No. 2]: Positively, absolutely
[Munchkins]: Undeniably and reliably Dead
[Coroner]: As Coroner I must aver,
I thoroughly examined her.
And she’s not only merely dead,
she’s really most sincerely dead.
[Mayor]: Then this is a day of Independence
For all the Munchkins and their descendants…
Deficit getting better.
http://www.investors.com/editorial/IBDArticles.asp?artsec=20&artnum=3&issue=20060613
So, you’re an economics whizz now too. Well you would then know that as an indicator GNP is raw data buseful for extrapolation only.
Care to comment on the out of control deficit?
When a country has 11.9 trillion in GDP and 3.2% GDP real growth, it doesn’t worry about “other nations” with 90% GDP growth when their GDP is like 100,000 dollars.
Some of these dudes have like 600,000,000 GDP, and have 10% GDP growth. Big freaking deal, Confud wants to deceive himself into believing bigger perentage means jack when it is 11+ trillion vs 600 million. Google makes more than 600 million per year.
neoneoconned said…
no yrmdwnkr is the maddest…by a long way
Ymar is just a product of the blathering pseudopatriot right. He thinks everyone outside america is jealous of them despite the fact that the US is way down the list on most economic and QL indicators.
No doubt, the OECD will be branded a socialist organization shortly.
Bets?
And you still haven’t answered. Toe rag.
Publish your comments, you refering to these comments?
OK Ymar, what are these “untoward effects” you are pontificating on?
You’d better clarify which criminal code and which jursidiction you are talking about first though. Wise to be accurate after all.
Maybe you need a vision check or something Confud, because all of your comments are there. Don’t tell me you got sucked into the twilight zone after your deal with the Devil went bad…
Come on knob cheese breath. Answer the fucking question you little toe rag.
Ymars blog
The British don’t get it. Americans are the younger, more brilliant, genius in the Anglo-Saxon family. The British got one lesson from their Troubles, and they seek to apply it to Israel and the US. Prejudiced and arrogant. America is the new and improved version, compared to the buggy alpha version that is Britain. Britain deserves respect for its age, sort of like the rickety disabled grandfather. But that don’t mean we’re going to emulate the old generation.
Mein Kampf ? The Ymar Republic?
Ymarsakar said…
By all means, click on my name, blog link is there for you to see for yourself the glories that Conned speaks of.
3:28 PM, June 12, 2006
Oh I have a look at you blog from time to time. Ymar, if you are going to lie, you’ve got to be a bit cleverer.
You can’t just substitute MUSLIM for Brazilian Catholic and expect people to take you seriously.
Bottom of the class.
Why won’t you publish my comments? No balls?
By all means, click on my name, blog link is there for you to see for yourself the glories that Conned speaks of.
no yrmdwnkr is the maddest…by a long way
There is a life and a vibrancy amongst the barbarians, the head choppers, the Islamic jihadists, that is not present in the decadent Western systems of beliefs.
I mean. Well. What can you say in reply. This is from the latest post on his highly comical blog.
If ever Neo’s therapist skills were needed it is with this young man. Get him some help. I am serious neo. Email him, the guy needs some positive encouragemnt and direction from someone he clearly admires.
comrade wasp as the maddest
Who was carrying on about militias in Birmingham?
That was pretty insane.
The muslims are coming! The muslims are coming!
I dunno. I reckon Sally probably cut and pasted that from another little right wing site.
Too much of a leap to think she could do any better than just rearrange the howling adjectives in her little schoolgirl rant.
no hang on Sally has learned parody….
The Simple Song of the Trolls:
Sickos, rascists, Oh. Mi. God.
You lot have really lost it this time.
Thats quite clever.
So that leaves yrmdwnkr as the thickest and comrade wasp as the maddest. Little apple thief is quite dumb but lacks the wonderful intellectual pretension to his stupidity that yrmdwnkr uses to entertain us all.
Not to mention his fantasy gaming nonsense..
On the absolute ranking scale for weapons, handguns and rifles are a mediocre 3.
It takes a greater comprehension of the warrior ethos, to know what the other 7 higher weapons are.
neoneoconned said…
You’re thicker than Sally. oh come on thats a bit harsh. Madder yes
It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.
but Sally is definitely thicker.
confud is one of the worst of the deranged left, someone who defends islamofascist thugs as freedom-fighters
4:24 PM, June 11, 2006
Tough choice. The wasp is a contender too.
I’ll get back to you.
no
no
Does Conned have a blog, or does he focus all his rage and desire to play at neo-con games, by saving the quotes of random people he sees on the internet?
You’re thicker than Sally. oh come on thats a bit harsh. Madder yes
It is not about evidence, it is about psychological and emotional shock.
but Sally is definitely thicker.
confud is one of the worst of the deranged left, someone who defends islamofascist thugs as freedom-fighters
Troutsky, eating his cheetoes while watching tv, is thickest I tend to believe.
It takes a higher mind than yours, little soft toy, to interpret value.
You’re thicker than Sally.
On the absolute ranking scale for weapons, handguns and rifles are a mediocre 3.
It takes a greater comprehension of the warrior ethos, to know what the other 7 higher weapons are.
Oh, we’re fully aware of why a soft bellied soft headed little pustule like you need guns to defend yourself.
Australia is not a very welcoming place because they don’t get why people need weapons for self-defense.
stumbley said…
And Arafat was a poor, downtrodden waif.
No. Arafat was a vain fool who put his own selfish interests ahead of the people he claimed to represent. In the end he was a traitor to his cause by design or negligence.
He was a convenient whipping boy while the Israelis broke all the terms of the Oslo farce though.
That is a large part of why Hamas was elected.
kcom said…
“There is no hope, ever, while people like you are a force in US politics that Palestinians will ever achieve any justice.”
Just to be clear, what would consider justice, deep down in your heart of hearts? Be brutally honest.
I don’t live in the “black and white” world you claim to live in so I admit I can’t answer that question. I’m also not sure it’s my place to answer it.
6:40 PM, June 10, 2006
That is a good question to which I don’t pretend to have a definitive answer. I really don’t. But what they are facing now is not just by any stretch of the imagination.
kcom said…
“There is no hope, ever, while people like you are a force in US politics that Palestinians will ever achieve any justice. It was their fecking land for Chrissakes. That is the starting point.”
Just to play devil’s advocate, where does your calendar start? An argument could be made that the Jews were there first and had their land taken. Their temples on the Temple Mount pre-date any Muslim building (or Muslim person for that matter) by thousands of years. Just curious. If you want to get into historical oneupmanship you can go a long way back with that. Didn’t the Muslims take that land by force? Again, just asking to give you a chance to clarify your position.
6:58 PM, June 10, 2006
No, the history of the current conflict can only really start in 1947.
As for you yboy, you should come over to Australia and talk to a mate of mine who lost his wife in the first Bali bombing. He’d love to ‘debate’ the facts with you. We’re a welcoming people Ymar and we enjoy robust debate. We’d love to hear how we are failing you direct from the horse’s ars…oops..mouth.
There’s a reason why Neo said it would be best to stop engaging with trolls, stumb.
To reiterate the reasoning, Confud is here as an enemy provocateur in order to sabotage, steal, and to confuse the enemy, which would be anyone here that disagrees with him, including the blog author Neo.
Asking why Confud is here when he is not convincing anyone, is a no brainer question. Confud is not here to convince people, Confud is here to draw attention to himself, sabotage conversations and discussions, and make things about himself rather than anything truely important like Z Man dieing.
Kcom can engage 1 on 1 with Confud, and Confud will never give up, while other commenters have to scroll through a bunch of garbage comments that don’t mean anything except rehashed stuff about Israel.
In fact, Confud will stop talking on this thread, and transfer to the newest topic, just to make sure that people can’t ignore him. THen we’ll see another Kcom vs Confud on the newest topic. Then version two, on the newest new topic. Then version three, and so on and so forth.
This is why you shouldn’t engage with trolls. Agent provocateurs are rabid dogs. Either avoid them or put them down, but don’t play with them and then be surprised that you get bitten.
“There is no hope, ever, while people like you are a force in US politics that Palestinians will ever achieve any justice. It was their fecking land for Chrissakes. That is the starting point.“
Just to play devil’s advocate, where does your calendar start? An argument could be made that the Jews were there first and had their land taken. Their temples on the Temple Mount pre-date any Muslim building (or Muslim person for that matter) by thousands of years. Just curious. If you want to get into historical oneupmanship you can go a long way back with that. Didn’t the Muslims take that land by force? Again, just asking to give you a chance to clarify your position.
“There is no hope, ever, while people like you are a force in US politics that Palestinians will ever achieve any justice.”
Just to be clear, what would consider justice, deep down in your heart of hearts? Be brutally honest.
I don’t live in the “black and white” world you claim to live in so I admit I can’t answer that question. I’m also not sure it’s my place to answer it.
stumbley said…
And Arafat was a poor, downtrodden waif.
Good God, man. Give it up! Who do you think you’re convincing? Nobody here believes you. You’re wasting your time. You will never convince us that the bloodthirsty, murderous animals that pass for the “leaders” of Palestine are anything but terrorists.
No nation is perfect, lord knows, but Israel is nowhere near the awful, brutal place you portray. You will never convince me otherwise.
6:04 PM, June 10, 2006
I keep saying that you will have to convince yourself. But you won’t. You will not see the truth that is there in black and white. You will ignore the evidence which is so plain a 10 year old could work it out. It is all there in plain view, but the US populace will continue to hoodwink itself while these mongrels laugh all the way to the bank. And you will make statements like ………….” You will never convince us that the bloodthirsty, murderous animals that pass for the “leaders” of Palestine are anything but terrorists”………and continue to deny your racism.
There is no hope, ever, while people like you are a force in US politics that Palestinians will ever achieve any justice. It was their fecking land for Chrissakes. That is the starting point.
“Nobody attacked Israel in 1967.”
Please point out where I said they did. I don’t think you can, because I didn’t. Your repeated habit of putting words in my mouth and then arguing against those words is quite pointless.
You are also attempting to change the subject again by not addressing the actual point of the passage you cited. First you claimed it would not be to the military disadvantage of the Israelis to withdraw to the 1967 borders because the Palestinians only have a few AK-47s, but even when it’s pointed out to you, you completely ignore the fact that the Palestinians are not their only potential enemies. And not just potential, they’ve actually been at war with those countries in the past. Please tell me how it is that controlling less territory and having your population centers closer to the front lines is not a military disadvantage.
Below is another case in point where you insist on putting your own words in someone else’s mouth:
“You really should read the story of the politician who was assassinated. Your IDF heros and Israeli politicians aren’t quite who you think you are you know.”
As I mentioned earlier, I don’t have any Israeli heroes – it’s not my country. But I will always have more respect for a country that freely elects its leaders in democratic elections, has an independent judiciary, allows a variety of opinions to flourish along with a free press, has financial accountability, civilian control of the military and doesn’t celebrate sending teenage boys to blow up 10-year-old girls at pizza parlors. Especially the last one.
I’m not excusing it in any way shape or form, but maybe you could look at why they called themselves Black September. OK?”
So, it had something to do with the Olympics, then? Perhaps the IOC sent their troops into Jordan to rout out the Palestinians? I know I never did trust that Avery Brundage, what with all those shock commando units under his command. I mean, come on. At least when you make an argument, have a point. Tell me how anything that led to the creation of Black September justified, or even explained in any way, the actions of a group of people who took it upon themselves to shoot up the Olympic Games and murder its athletes. As someone else pointed out, what you say does sound an awful lot like excusing it because, other than that, what does one have to do with the other? (I honestly don’t think you mean that, but look at what you wrote.)
And Arafat was a poor, downtrodden waif.
Good God, man. Give it up! Who do you think you’re convincing? Nobody here believes you. You’re wasting your time. You will never convince us that the bloodthirsty, murderous animals that pass for the “leaders” of Palestine are anything but terrorists.
No nation is perfect, lord knows, but Israel is nowhere near the awful, brutal place you portray. You will never convince me otherwise.
Stumbley that is total bollocks. You are a) inventing my position and b) not looking at the reality of what Israel is doing. Nor are you cognisant of many similar outrages that have gone unpunished and worse.
Check out the antics of the ‘settlers’.
Look, there has to be a dialogue somewhere if ever this is going to stop. Hamas may be all the things you think (but probably quite a few you don’t as well) but, they were elected to represent the few Palestinians left in Palestine.
Killing their leaders helps no one. You guys are doing business all over the world with far worse people than them. Far worse.
I’m sure Sally, Ymar, Mary and the insect are rejoicing in this news, just as you accuse 6 million people of at each suicide bombing.
Look at the history, look at the maps, look at the people in power. How many generals in the IDF and cabinet members in government aren’t multimillionaires? How much US money has disappeared there?
“I’m not excusing it in any way shape or form, but “
See, confud, it’s the “but” that convinces me that you do. It’s the reason there’s a continual cycle of violence; neither side will just stop the killing. The difference, of course, is that when Israel accidentally kills civilians, Israelis investigate, apologize, and punish.
Palestinians intentionally attack civilians, and celebrate. And that’s why I will never support their “cause”.
Kconned saaid
Are you truly that ignorant of history? You don’t remember (or never heard about) Israel being attacked by Egypt and and Syria during the Yom Kippur War and having to fight Egypt, Jordan and Syria (backed by other non-border Arab countries) simultaneously in 1967? I’m no military tactician but even I know that it’s a military disadvantage to control less territory, have your enemy closer to your population centers, and put yourself at risk of having your country cut in two due to the fact that you have a large enemy salient in the middle of your territory. Of course, if real peace could be achieved all this would be irrelevant, but until that time comes, yes, it would be decided disadvantage from the Israeli point of view to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Please go study the history of the past 50 years and the history of warfare in general.
On the contrary K, it is you that needss to read history as opposed to Israeli propaganda. Nobody attacked Israel in 1967. It seems to be only Americans that still think it was. I’ve yet to meet an Israeli who believes this nonsense. Funny that.
You really should read the story of the politician who was assassinated. Your IDF heros and Israeli politicians aren’t quite who you think you are you know.
Its all out there. You need to read. We are of similar agess possibly and I remember the Munich outrage as well. I’m not excusing it in any way shape or form, but maybe you could look at why they called themselves Black September. OK?
Maybe neoneoconned meant this. I note that it hasn’t made much of an impact in the US networks.
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/slaughter-on-the-beach/2006/06/10/1149815360539.html
Sally, you’re such an obvious coward. Pfft.
We executed Z-Man, and everyone on the Right is celebratng. Except David Duke and their ilk.
Btw, Z-Man wasn’t in Israel.
the ability of you lot to admire israeli violence is impressive.
Any of you care to condemn this action? or is their some good reason behind it? Is it targetted?
Stumb and Nyo are both nice. Ymar isn’t nice at all. But Sakar is pretty agreeable.
confud:
“Read the politics of the assassinated politician.
Whilst not sanctioning the act, he was not a nice guy.”
Kcom:
What’s that got to do with it? If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. Right?
I don’t know, k…methinks ol’ confud would have no problem with a jihadi blowing a few of us up…after all, we’re not “nice guys”.
I returned the favor, kcom.
“Read the politics of the assassinated politician.
Whilst not sanctioning the act, he was not a nice guy.”
What’s that got to do with it? If it’s wrong, it’s wrong. Right?
Just checking, but you people already know that Confud doesn’t post in old threads because he wants the attention from new ones, hijacking them, and having the topic be what he wants it to be rather than what neo has written about, Right?
Most regular people who have personal beefs will keep it going on an older thread, they don’t usually drag it unto new ones. Here’s another psychotic person, and I mean psychotic seriously.
Mudville has some good agent provocateurs as well
While it is fun watching kcom go into action and produce reason contrasted with Confud’s insanity. Whenever I feel the need to “engage” with Confud or think something he said is preposterous, then I go back and read this exchange with Confud in the Beginning. After that, I have no more desire to engage with Confud
As I said before, there are certain things you don’t talk about with Confud, otherwise it will engage his self-defense mechanisms and his prejudices will go into overdrive. The belief that he is on the side of righteousness concerning Palestine, is a keystone of his entire matrix identity. Knock that apart and Confud will be as good as dead.
I think I can do that by putting him in Israel, and having a suicide bomb go off killing a bunch of people he knows in front of him. That might work. Not guaranteed of course. Look at Nick Berg’s father. Some people can weave a self-deception web so strong, not even psychological shock can do them in.
So once again a comment thread has been successfully hijacked by a common troll, and one of the more mentally challenged of that sad, compulsive lot. It should be obvious that, regardless of periodic efforts to “moderate” some of his opinions in order to give the lure a chance at all, confud is one of the worst of the deranged left, someone who defends islamofascist thugs as freedom-fighters, looks to Hermann Goering for political advice, dodges the point, changes the subject, moves the goalposts, tries pathetically to mock, lies, whines, repeats himself obsessively, and, when all else fails, giggles. Even as a morbid example he’s past his “use by” date, and trying to reason with him makes about as much sense as trying to talk to a parrot.
On a more substantive note:
I’d agree that the Zarqawi killing fits the pattern of targeted assassination, and that the tender souls who are concerned about that sort of thing are probably fewer just because of the especially nasty nature of this particular victim. But I’m not clear that such a strategy comes in for a lot of condemnation lately, after Israel has shown it to be a relatively cheap, focused, and above all effective technique for taking the fight to the terrorists. It turns out that it’s not quite as easy as their lefty supporters imagine for the terrorists to carry out their mass murders, and the loss of their leaders does indeed hurt them. Which, of course, in itself explains the hostility to targeted assassinations among the more rabid left.
Anyways, I’m sick of you lot. I’m off to the pub.
Great. Thanks. Up the Irish!
(and that really is meant in the positive way!)
Really, confud. It’s old. Please go away.
Anyways, I’m sick of you lot. I’m off to the pub. Followed by (hopefully) Ireland’s first win over New Zeaand in a proper man’s game.
Read the politics of the assassinated politician.
Whilst not sanctioning the act, he was not a nice guy.
You need to step back a bit and look at the dispute from the beginning. There are very few good guys in all this. The beginning was Palestinians having their land stolen after all.
There is nothing racist about that whatsoever. And yes, I was against “necklacing”, too, if that’s what you mean. Of course, that’s not what you mean. It seems, in your world, certain groups are allowed to violate every norm of human behavior and still retain the world’s sympathy while other ones are not. I just have higher expectations of mankind than that. Call it a weakness.
Actually, I’m arguing exactly the opposite. I’d like to see the same rules apply to the Israelis as everyone else. It is US policy which immunises Israel from international law and conforming to the norms of civilized behaviour.
You are using emotive images to describe Palestinian crimes without any empathy at all for what is happening to Palestinians. Have you ever read accounts of Palestinians being killed by Israelis? Just as heart-breaking to me. Clearly not to you.
You ARE advocating collective punishment for 6 million people that have been abandoned by and large. You do this possibly because you have been conditioned by the US media and Israeli propaganda.
At the end of the day , what you are demanding is for a nebulous population of 6 million people who have been under brutal military occupation for decades, without leadership, without any sort of hope, to behave like Ghandi in the hope that their oppressors may bargain in good faith over a tiny scrap of land while their said oppressors live on the land stolen from them and controlling every aspect of their existence.
Why can’t you see the impossibility and the stupidity of this?
“So neo, killing Palestinian officials without trial or any accountability or notion of legal justification (not to mention the civilian loss of life that inevitably occurs) is perfectly fine because some faceless beareaucrat has identified them with some unspecified ‘terrorist’ act.”
Israeli Minister Assassinated
An excerpt:
“A rightwing Israeli minister was shot dead in a Jerusalem hotel today by a suspected Palestinian gunman, prompting fresh fears for the shaky truce between Palestinians and Israelis that was agreed only three weeks ago.
The Syria-based Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine immediately claimed responsibility for murder of the far-right tourism minister, Rehavam Ze’evi.”
Can you send me a link to the transcript of his trial and the accountability behind his killing? And the legal justification? I’m sure the tourism minister was deeply involved in military actions in Gaza and the West Bank. I’m inrerested to read what he said in his defense at his trial.
Or are you saying it’s okay for the Palestinians to practice targeted assassinations (on tourism ministers, no less) but wrong for the Israelis to take out someone directly responsible for attacks on Israeli?
You were complaining about double standards, so I’m just curious if you believe in this double standard?
The Palestinians are just proxies for the left. They have never forgiven and will never forgive the Capitalist West which remained standing while the wheels came off their Glorious Little Red Wagon of Socialist Bliss. Every thing after that has been a screaming, foot stamping hissy fit of little girls who occasionally reach into their panties to scoop up and fling the contents at anybody who is not in their reality based community.
You will notice that this time around we are hearing no rock anthems of resistance, revolution and street fighting. They learned a hard lesson in the 60’s and got their buttocks handed to them.
If they become more than feces flinging monkeys and actually start to impede, the same thing will happen and the left knows it.
We need a good strong, insane Left right now in order to be the finger down the throat of the Democrat Party allowing them to barf up all their sickness and once more become a party worthy of respect and votes. After that, the Left will wither away just like the State was supposed to in the Socialist Paradise.
Their mothers were hamsters and their fathers smelt of elderberries!
“Military advantage? You really are deluded by your prejudice. A rag tag bunch of militias with AK47s against a (illegally) nuclear armed state sponsored with tens of billions of dollars by the world’s only superpower.”
Are you truly that ignorant of history? You don’t remember (or never heard about) Israel being attacked by Egypt and and Syria during the Yom Kippur War and having to fight Egypt, Jordan and Syria (backed by other non-border Arab countries) simultaneously in 1967? I’m no military tactician but even I know that it’s a military disadvantage to control less territory, have your enemy closer to your population centers, and put yourself at risk of having your country cut in two due to the fact that you have a large enemy salient in the middle of your territory. Of course, if real peace could be achieved all this would be irrelevant, but until that time comes, yes, it would be decided disadvantage from the Israeli point of view to withdraw to the 1967 borders. Please go study the history of the past 50 years and the history of warfare in general.
“I’d like to tell you a story about a Jewish South African friend of mine who emmigrated to Israel after completing Medical School.
But you wouldn’t believe the very sad story because it wouldn’t fit in with your golden view of Israel.”
Well, how would I know that until I hear the story? I told you mine, you can tell me yours. And then I could decide for myself what I believe. Yeah, that seems fair.
Of course, your assumption that I have a golden view of Israel is just that. I’ve never been there, don’t know anyone from there, don’t have any personal stake there. But what I do know is that they don’t go around crowing about blowing up 13-year-olds at pizza parlors. That’s a start to a golden society that the Palestinians haven’t made yet.
“I don’t condone suicide bombings either, but are they any less disgusting than Apache helicopters firing at civilians. Hard to figure the heroics involved in that.”
You mean “more disgusting”, of course. Send me a link and I’ll compare and contrast. (Also, I must admit I’m worried by your “I don’t condone, but…” construction. It tends to sound like condoning.”)
“BTW Hamas has a unilateral ceasefire in place. Just so as you know.”
Yes, I know. What would be even more productive would be to revoke their goal of wiping Israel off the map. It’s always easier to come to an agreement with someone if you aren’t worried they are trying to murder you when your back is turned.
“The reported rocket attacks killed one person in the 12 months before the invasion. Clear enough?”
How come you keep ignoring the part about the ambassador? That’s what brought this whole subject up in the first place, wasn’t it? Targeted assassinations and all. Why do you keep ignoring the examples of Palestinian targeted assassinations?
“Nothing while people like you in the US are prepared to base middle east policy on religious divides and racism.”
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize it was racist to oppose murdering Olympic athletes and bombing pizza parlors.
The argument you seem to be making is that those brown people can’t help themselves from doing those things so it’s racist to call them on it. It’s in their nature, is that it?
I will repeat what I said before. Other political groups have accomplished their goals without resorting to that sort of thing and the Palestinians would do much better with US public opinion (and I would hope the rest of the world) if they stopped celebrating the fact that they’ve blown up a 13-year-old girl eating a pizza or riding a bus. Period.
There is nothing racist about that whatsoever. And yes, I was against “necklacing”, too, if that’s what you mean. Of course, that’s not what you mean. It seems, in your world, certain groups are allowed to violate every norm of human behavior and still retain the world’s sympathy while other ones are not. I just have higher expectations of mankind than that. Call it a weakness.
Maybe the Palestinians would stop if Israel stopped its expansionist ways.
I agree there has to be some commonality. The current situation is not achieving that and blaming the Palestinians for all the ills to preclude any talks only helps the Israelis continued expansion and ethnic cleansing.
The reported rocket attacks killed one person in the 12 months before the invasion. Clear enough?
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig4/bovard1.html
Here is something for you to compare your structured military’s heroic deeds vs your suicide bombers.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/anomalous/138519847/
This evening I had dinner with an old Serbian professor who told me, “Show me a picture of a rich Jew and a rich Muslim fighting and I’ll give you $50” Point? The ones who scream “Crucify, crucify” are always the poor and uneducated — a courage must be found on both sides to find what touches the human nerve to find some commonality, some reason to live together in peace — I’m all for it. I think Israel would stop defending herself it its neighbor would stop attacking her.
Military advantage? You really are deluded by your prejudice. A rag tag bunch of militias with AK47s against a (illegally) nuclear armed state sponsored with tens of billions of dollars by the world’s only superpower.
Cloud cuckooland.
“(a country, btw, that actually contains a homegrown peace movement) “
Yes, that is a truly bizzarre situation when looking at US collective myopia on the issues.
I’d like to tell you a story about a Jewish South African friend of mine who emmigrated to Israel after completing Medical School.
But you wouldn’t believe the very sad story because it wouldn’t fit in with your golden view of Israel.
I don’t condone suicide bombings either, but are they any less disgusting than Apache helicopters firing at civilians. Hard to figure the heroics involved in that.
BTW Hamas has a unilateral ceasefire in place. Just so as you know.
“But just keep shooting the messenger.”
Sure, I’ll shoot him with truth serum until he can get his facts straight. I owe him that much. What good is a messenger who garbles the message.
“The Lebanon War…began June 6, 1982, when the Israel Defense Forces invaded southern Lebanon. The Government of Israel justified the invasion as a response to the assassination attempt against Israel’s ambassador to the United Kingdom, Shlomo Argov by Fatah – Revolutionary Council and to artillery attacks launched by the Palestine Liberation Organization against populated areas in northern Israel. See also Operation Litani.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982_Lebanon_War
There’s not much there about a lone Israeli soldier.
“Well thanks for the precis kcon but everything that I’ve said is relevant and in direct response.”
In some parallel universe sure. Here’s a summary of the conversation.
C. – How would you feel if they assassinated your movers and shakers?
M. – They already have. Here is example 1, 2, 3, etc.
C. – Oh yeah, a lot more Palestininans have died in that time frame than Israelis.
Are you really going to argue that response is relevant? Please.
So, you believe in collective punishment for the actions of Black September. Excellent.
Again, what have Palestinians achieved by any means? Nothing. Arafat signed the Oslo accord and acheived? Nothing.
Passive resistance doesn’t work. Democracy will starve them. What else is left?
Nothing while people like you in the US are prepared to base middle east policy on religious divides and racism.
The arabs and muslims within Israel are in a perilous state too and institutionilized racism is a matter of record. I suppose you supported white South Africa too.
Stumbley said…
Look, it’s clear that you have a real dislike of Israel. Been there, done that. It’s clear that most who read this blog really aren’t big fans of the “Palestinians”. So let’s agree to disagree on this one.
I’m really not certain why you continue to post, when there are only two others that regularly agree with you. Whose minds do you think you’re changing? Why waste your time and ours with what is ultimately a futile effort?
I probably agree with you on the futility but until I came to this site, having several decades of political discourse behind me, I never thought I’d meet people on a political platform that had such closed minds. Why even come to the thing if you don’t want to hear alternative viewpoints?
It is a peculiarity of current US politics that Israel can be deemed “good” and the oppressees “bad” or worse “terrorists” while the public is absolutely blind to the facts on the ground which are so freely available and so overtly damning.
It is bizzarre to say the least.
If you want to get rid of Islamic extremism you will have to address the Palestinian situation. Simple.
Blair knew it and got dicked by Bush for his trouble.
“It is all too easy to label everyone fighting you as terrorists. What the hell are the Palestinians supposed to do?”
For a start, they are not supposed to blow up embassies or assassinate accredited diplomatic personnel. They are also not supposed to walk into pizza parlors with bombs and detonate them. Plenty of other political movements have achieved their goals without resorting to blowing up pizza parlor customers.
In fact, I would argue that the Palestinians would have a much better time and be much more favorably considered in U.S. public opinion if they stopped that garbage. America loves an underdog and loves rooting for the small guy but the Palestinians make it so incredibly difficult to feel sympathy for them that the result in US opinion is absolutely no surprise. When given a choice between a country run by democratically elected leaders (including arab legislators) and a military that’s responsible to those leaders through an organized chain of command (a country, btw, that actually contains a homegrown peace movement) versus a people organized around apparently uncontrollable violent groups dedicated to the annihilation of their opponents and wedded to the tactic of blowing up buses and pizza parlors and shopping malls full of non-combatants then the choice for most Americans is not that difficult.
Now, if the Palestinians were ever to pull their heads out of their collective asses and look around the world and see what actually works for people in a situation like theirs they might actually get somewhere. They would certainly be much farther along now if they had done that years ago. Think of all the political movements that have had success in the last 40 years while the Palestinians got nowhere because they were obsessed with their counterproductive death cult.
Here’s a little story: I came of age in the early ’70s and one of the indelible memories I’ll have in my mind for the rest of my life is of what happened at the 1972 Munich Olympic Games. If the Palestinians were under any impression whatsoever that they were going to convince me of the worthiness of their cause by shooting up the Olympic Games, taking hostages, and murdering athletes then they were sorely, sorely mistaken. The Olympics were no Garden of Eden but they did represent something good and decent in international relations and the day the Palestinians pissed all over that is the day they dug a hole for me that they’ve yet to get out of. So here’s what they could do to gain some sympathy from me – they could denounce the actions of the Munich Olympic murder squad and apologize to the families, the Olympic movement and the world for what they did to sully the Games. That would be a nice start and it wouldn’t be very hard, if they were so inclined to do it.
Of course, what many suspect is that they aren’t inclined to do that or even to live in peace next to the Israelis in any capacity whatsoever, now or in the future. Where is the incentive for Israel to pull back to the 1967 borders before the Palestinians make it crystal clear that they will not use the military advantage so gained to attempt their explicitly stated goal of pushing Israel into the sea and wiping it off the map. What sane person or group would put itself at a disadvantage with regards to an enemy and just cross its fingers and hope that the other side would play nice?
stumbley said…
So, Australia and the UK for 2.
Absolutely. The best. Don’t recall “pillorying them with childish glee,” however…
Perhaps not you personally, but plenty of others have. All you neocon imperialists look alike to me. 🙂
Well thanks for the precis kcon but everything that I’ve said is relevant and in direct response.
The pretext for the invasion of Lebanon was “continued violence” by Palestinian elements. The violence amounted to one death of an Israeli soldier (illegally planting land mines) in Lebanon.
But just keep shooting the messenger.
“He’s [confud] a dishonest liar, he destroys evidence, and he likes to bait people.”
He also likes to change the subject when he’s painted himself into a corner. If you let him get away with it.
For instance: “I don’t think you can classify the South Lebanon fighting as targeted assassination, they were after all fighting a brutal invasion and occupation.“
How is blowing up an embassy, the sanctity of which is one of the most fundamental concepts in the whole realm of international relations, part of fighting a brutal invasion? And I actually don’t remember the U.S. invading Lebanon either, for that matter.
“And the fact is that many more Palestinians Lebanese and Syrians have died at Israeli/US hands in that time, and most of them civilians.”
And that addresses the point maryatexitzero made about the Palestinians selectively assassinating U.S. officials over a period of decades how? Remember, she was specifically answering his question of how we would feel if the Palestinians assassinated our movers and shakers. She pointed out numerous examples of how it’s already happened and because that information is inconvenient to mr. confud, who I know can be logical if you force him to keep his eye on the ball, he wanders off into a whole different topic that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.
“Remember the pretext for the invasion of Lebanon? One Israeli soldier shot (whilst laying landmines) was the justification for the massacre that followed.”
If my memory serves me correctly, and I believe it does, the initiating event for the invasion of Lebanon was the attempted assassination and grievous wounding of the Israeli ambassador in London in 1982. Again, notice the theme – a complete disregard for the ancient principle of safe passage for diplomatic personnel. Citing the Lebanese invasion only reinforces marya’s point, it doesn’t weaken it.
“But either way, now you are practicing collective punishment.”
This is the result of his attempted change of topic. The discussion he responded to was about the concept of assassinating movers and shakers and since that argument didn’t go so well he’s trying a lateral move into an unrelated topic to cover his tracks. Again, though, it has nothing to do with the topic at hand and isn’t a germane response to marya’s post. Assassinating one person responsible for carrying out terrorist bombings or rocket attacks is not, in any conceivable definition, “collective punishment.” It is very specific punishment.
So, Australia and the UK for 2.
Absolutely. The best. Don’t recall “pillorying them with childish glee,” however…
Look, it’s clear that you have a real dislike of Israel. Been there, done that. It’s clear that most who read this blog really aren’t big fans of the “Palestinians”. So let’s agree to disagree on this one.
I’m really not certain why you continue to post, when there are only two others that regularly agree with you. Whose minds do you think you’re changing? Why waste your time and ours with what is ultimately a futile effort?
Just asking. I’ll go back to lurking again. Sorry.
Actually Mary, much of that aid has been blown up by the Israelis. The little things like water treatment plants, sweage treatment plants and electricity suppply projects.
How much have you given the Israelis in that time?
Israel has done absolutely nothing for the US bar provide plenty of arab/muslim hatred toward you. It does relieve your taxpayers of an awful lot of money though.
So, Australia and the UK for 2. Both have fought beside you everywhere, even your wars of dubious morality and purpose. And we don’t get paid for it.
Hezbollah fights the IDF and defends Palestinians in South Lebanon (refugees). Remember Chatilla and Sabra if you think they don’t need a protector.
So, the world (via the UN) is wrong and Israel just ignores us but has morality on its side. But thats OK the UN (of which the US is a constituent part) can just be written off when it doesn’t bend to your will.
The Palestinians have done nothing for Australia but that is an utterly pointless question.
Modern Israel was founded on a terrorist campaign of bombings and ethnic cleansing and are possibly the world’s biggest proponents of terrorism and assassinations. They will and do also sell your weapons to the highest bidder.
Great friends.
And by the way, I apologize again, neo. The thread’s about targeted assassinations and Zarqawi.
But then, we get this:
Better allies don’t get that and wouldn’t expect to. On this site better allies are pilloried and rubbished with childish glee.
What better allies? Name two.
There is no Israeli/Palestinian conflict, there’s only Israel vs. the weak Arabs who were humiliated by their defeat in the Six Days War. Those weak Arabs use the Palestinians as a weapon against Israel, and they’re willing to fight to the last Palestinian.
About the aid, see, we’re proud of our stupidity: Since 1993, Palestinians have received more than $1.7 billion in U.S. economic assistance via USAID projects – more than from any other donor country.
We miss the central idea behind the idea of a bribe, defined as :
1 : money or favor given or promised in order to influence the judgment or conduct of a person in a position of trust
2 : something that serves to induce or influence
We give the Palestinians billions and they murder American diplomats (an act of war, by the way). We’re not influencing them, we’re not earning their trust. That money is wasted.
What have the Palestinians done to deserve so much of our money? What will they do for us in the future?
1. Why won’t Israel abide by over 60 UN resolutions?
Because they realize that the UN is merely a corrupt organ for despots and dictators, and not worth the trouble.
2. Why won’t they retreat to their pre 1967 borders as they agreed to do?
Because this would give Hezbollah a chance to broaden the range of their Katyushas to strike even more of Israel.
3. What have they ever done for the US?
Been an ally against terrorists. What have the Palestinians ever done for Australia?
OK.
1. Why won’t Israel abide by over 60 UN resolutions?
2. Why won’t they retreat to their pre 1967 borders as they agreed to do?
3. What have they ever done for the US?
Throw me a single intelligent coherent question and I’ll address it.
Oooh, you’re a big brave finger pointer Ryan.
Ryan with a hidden profile that is. Heehee.
Word starting with H for you, little man.
Why is it that you can argue with Israelis about these things with some civility and maturity, but when Americans are involved all the kiddy finger pointers come out of their closets?
What about arab hypocrisy nyo? Why should Palestinians be wiped out because of the butchers in Europe AND the arab world?
There is no moral equivalency here.
Where does it all end? A vaguely just solution needs to be found. What the Palestinians are facing is permanent refugee status. How the F is that going to help any of us?
Many leftists don’t believe that Israel has the right to exist. For if they did, they’d understand the actions that the Israeli democracy takes to defend itself.
There is no reason to hate the axis of liberty, i.e. the United States-Australia-UK-Canada-Israel. The Bolsheviks in the media can screw themselves. Islamic terror is NOT the measure of Western guilt.
Speaking recently of top 50 Conservative Songs, here’s one for the trolls:
Beatles: Think For Yourself
I’ve got a word or two
To say about the things that you do
You’re telling all those lies
About the good things that we can have
If we close our eyes
Do what you want to do
And go where you’re going to
Think for yourself
‘Cause I won’t be there with you
I left you far behind
The ruins of the life that you had in mind
And though you still can’t see
I know your mind’s made up
You’re gonna cause more misery
Do what you want to do
And go where you’re going to
Think for yourself
‘Cause I won’t be there with you
Although your mind’s opaque
Try thinking more if just for your own sake
The future still looks good
And you’ve got time to rectify
All the things that you should….
If there was ever a person to ignore, it’s self-proclaimed troll confudeforeigner.
He’s a dishonest liar, he destroys evidence, and he likes to bait people. Don’t take the bait.
western hypocrisy What about Arab hypocrisy? It’s their backyard.
America is inherently evil — oh yea I forgot!
What is your investment in the Palestinian “cause”?
My investment is that a) I would like to see some justice for some of the world’s most downtrodden and betrayed people and b) I believe strongly that it is this very injustice that is the shining example of western hypocrisy that serves as a clarion call to islamic extremist recruiting. I’d like to live in a world without islamic extremism in as far as it is possible. I very much believe that committing more and bigger acts like Iraq make the world a way more dangerous place.
But that is exactly what you are led to believe.
a) The Israelis never stuck to the Oslo accord and officially don’t recognise it. It would never have worked anyway.
b) The bantustans that a minority of the Palestinian people are being offered are unsustainable, unworkable and unfair.
c) Palestine was a region that had been occupied by varous empires for millenia, yes, but that doesn’t mean the people who lived there are of any less human value does it?
d) You are advocating conquest by military expansionism and ethnic cleansing as a valid philosophy and policy in the modern world. This is the real neocon philosophy and the amoralism of the architects of the PNAC isn’t it?
I thought it was supposed to be about democracy and freedom.
Sorry. I know I’m not supposed to respond, but this is just beyond outrageous. Those poor, downtrodden murderous Palestinians.
What a crock.
You’re supposed to be celebrating Z Man’s death, dude. Go to black five, read the comments, then come back here. You’ll feel a lot better. Gogo!
Okay. I’ll bite. What is your investment in the Palestinian “cause”? Wouldn’t the whole middle East be better off if they would just agree to cease hostilities, abide by the “peace” agreements they have already signed on to, and try, just for once, to have that last for, oh, I don’t know, a year?
There are a great many people in the world who have suffered as much as the “Palestinians” without resorting to the kind of violence that they practice. American Indians come to mind.
And yes, I deny that the state of “Palestine”. Palestine is a construct.
Israel is a nation, created like all the other nations of the world, by conquest, and yes, occupation. Name one other nation that has not arisen in a like manner.
You could just as easily call every citizen of any nation in the world an “occupier” of someone else’s space. The sooner the Palestinians accept that Israel is never going away, the better off they’ll be.
STFU? Really? And where and how can they do that?
Don’t you think that your demonizing 6 million people is a crock? You seem livid that a tiny amount of US aid has gone to “murderous” Palestinians but you don’t mention the billions that you are paying to prop up the “heroic” Israelis, who are after all the aggressors.
Still, you could always deny there existence.
Oh, wait, you’ve already done that.
“What the hell are the Palestinians supposed to do?”
How about STFU, spend their time, energy, and the millions they get from Iran, Saudi Arabia, the EU and the US on building an infrastructure and a government, instead of suicide bombs?
Sorry. I know I’m not supposed to respond, but this is just beyond outrageous. Those poor, downtrodden murderous Palestinians.
What a crock.
Don’t forget that US troops in South Lebanon came under Israeli fire too. That didn’t get much press attention did it? Hmmmm, curious.
I don’t think you can classify the South Lebanon fighting as targeted assassination, they were after all fighting a brutal invasion and occupation.
And the fact is that many more Palestinians Lebanese and Syrians have died at Israeli/US hands in that time, and most of them civilians.
Remember the pretext for the invasion of Lebanon? One Israeli soldier shot (whilst laying landmines) was the justification for the massacre that followed.
But either way, now you are practicing collective punishment.
It is all too easy to label everyone fighting you as terrorists. What the hell are the Palestinians supposed to do?
Congrats to neo once again for preemptive addressing of liberal pansyass whining and yesbutting.
Peals of derisive laughter to foreign trolls, wasting much of their time and electrons in lecturing patriotic Americans. I fart in their general direction.
I’m telling you, when I say that “we should return the favor of them killing one of ours, by killing 1,000 of theirs”, I’m quite serious. If you can find 1,000 terroists that is. But there should be no statue of limitations on punitive expeditions.
Any damage they inflict upon us, we must return a thousand fold, or many many millions will suffer in the meantime while we keep our hands clean for fear of using Our Power.
There is nothing more contemptible than a person refusing to wield his power to save those that he can, because he fears his own power more than he fears his conscience.
I wonder how you would feel about Palestinians executing some of your own movers and shakers.
Are you kidding? Do you think we’re idiots who know nothing about history? Palestinians have been slaughtering Americans for decades. Just a
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Here is a link that should inspires a hope for a better future, that people should read.
http://www.blackfive.net/main/2006/04/faith_or_terror.html
Mi Chael Yon also has many segments on the children of Iraq. We did not sacrifice 2000 Americans for the Iraqis as they now constitute, we did it for the future, the future of all children.
And yet here he was, seeming to revel in his status as the biggest, baddest, meanest, most-sadistic sonofabitch in the world.
I think the Marines or the Special Forces might want to challenge him for that title, if he wasn’t dead already.
That bit about the munchkins, Neo, very very cute. Quite satisfactory.
Muslim peoples in tribal lands are far too primitive in their thinking to go directly to democracy. Their allegiances are to their family, clan, tribe, sect, religion, region, and if their is any allegiance left, to the “country.”
Al, you’re missing something quite obvious. It is not the current generation of Iraqis that will make democracy successful in Iraq, it is the next generation. The children who have had intimate contact with Americans, who are joyous when they hear the sound of American vehicles, children who have been saved by Americans, who have died beside Americans, and who have seen death and suffering beyond the harshest of mercenaries.
What experience do you think they will bring to the New Iraq? What opinion will they hold of tribes, of America, of terrorism, and of governments?
While it is true that it takes multiple generations, this only exists because no one has given them a helping hand. The US took multiple generations because we did it ourselves. Who is to say that with the help of the US, Japan or Germany can’t leap frog to the modern world in one generation?
Obviously, my estimates differ from Al’s. He says 2 generations. I say within one generation, Iraq will be as pro-American and as staunch an ally of America as Kurdistan today is.
So neo, killing Palestinian officials without trial or any accountability or notion of legal justification (not to mention the civilian loss of life that inevitably occurs) is perfectly fine because some faceless beareaucrat has identified them with some unspecified “terrorist” act.
I wonder how you would feel about Palestinians executing some of your own movers and shakers. Have a look at the history of some of your back room boys. Some lovely chaps behind the scenes there, not one of them elected either. Let’s pick Negreponte as a case in point.
Is he a “terrorist” or is he a proponent of the spread of liberal democracy and freedom. You decide.
Neo, one of the reasons I have never been very much of a fan of the crusade to take democracy to the primitive tribal people’s of muslim countries, is that it takes multiple generations to transit from the current level of primitivism to a level of existence where democracy is fairly viable.
The experiment in the US in the 18th century was only successful because most “americans” of that time were uprooted from their old world traditions, yet literate and aware of the deep currents of thought taking place in large population centers such as London and the continent. They were “prepared” for democracy, much as soil must be prepared for the seed.
Muslim peoples in tribal lands are far too primitive in their thinking to go directly to democracy. Their allegiances are to their family, clan, tribe, sect, religion, region, and if their is any allegiance left, to the “country.”
How long would it take to prepare the soil for democracy in primitive arab and muslim tribal lands? At least two generations I would say.
In the meantime, during the transition, these primitive lands will be hotbeds of violence and reaction. Just as some westerners flee to leftism to escape modernism, many muslims will flee to medieval Islam and its doctrines of Islamic supremacy and world conquest to escape the modern world–which casts them in a most unfavorable light.
It will take more time than most people understand.
Al Fun said..
It is a long way from the stone age to the modern world, and only a few arabs will make the transition in this generation
If ever you get enough courage up to leave the states you should do a tour through Spain. Then you may revisit your stone age thoughts.
You may be trying to bomb them back to the stone age but they were enjoying civilization long before white people.
Moderate Iranian and Indonesian muslims would rightly scoff at the stupidity and hypocrisy of your democracy theory.
It just goes to show that you haven’t a clue of who you are fighting.
One thing that is rarely discussed is how incredibly superstitious arabs (muslims in general) are. They are always looking for portents and signs–almost as bad as televangelists. 🙂
Seriously, the arab people are incredibly superstitious, which has been used by propagandists in arab satellite TV and murderous barbarians like Zarqawi to his advantage, but could be equally used by more civilising forces.
It is a long way from the stone age to the modern world, and only a few arabs will make the transition in this generation. If taking democracy to Iraq helps them on the way, it may yet serve a purpose.
There is most certainly a double standard in the press regarding Israel, but is 100% opposite to that which you state. Your press and politics in the US is utterly proIsrael and the public has been conned. Even your leftists are soft on Israel.
How can it be right to ‘uncondiionally support’ any country? Particularly with Israels aggressive expansionism and total disregard for international law.
Better allies don’t get that and wouldn’t expect to. On this site better allies are pilloried and rubbished with childish glee.
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