Time to ditch that Stradivarius?
People seem to think that new violins sound better:
In tests at concert halls in Paris and New York, audiences were asked to listen to soloists performing on brand new violins, and three made by master fiddle maker Stradivari.
The ”˜internationally renowned’ violinists performed behind a screen ”“ so the audience could not see what they were playing.
And to ensure the experiment was not influenced by the music makers themselves, they performed blindfolded.
The researchers focused on which violins were louder ”“ allowing audiences to hear them better ”“ and which were preferred.
Not only were the new violins louder, but the audience said they liked them better.
Lest you think the audiences were a bunch of musically unaware Philistines, ponder this:
The audience in Paris were 55 ”˜musically versed’ people including violinists, violin makers and acoustics experts, while those in New York were 82 who were less musically experienced.
What’s more:
The authors say that previous research has found that violin soloists generally prefer new violins in blind tests and cannot distinguish between new and old at better than chance levels.
I guess progress—at least, in violin-making—isn’t an illusion.
It’s sort of like the value collectors put on Damascus steel and Japanese folded steel. Those methodologies of steel craft were designed with the tech and metal limitations at the time.
Modern mono steels are purer and hardier, although lacking the HRC edge of the ancient alloys.
The key is that with modern technology we can fine control each aspect using superior tech. As construction methods for wood can do the same. Tradition or ancient methodologies were all in, it was either all parameters increased and they got the work, or they didn’t. There wasn’t much tinkering allowed, since it wasn’t easy to understand why a certain tradition had a superior product. And they were financially motivated not to spread the secret around, so people couldn’t mass test it.
Since each traditional violin sounds different, as they age, the artist has to adapt his style to the tool. Whereas with new violins, the parameter differences aren’t so different, so the tool now adapts to the artist. In the case of the former, this actually decreases the max skill ceiling of an artist, and requires additional adaptation time.
The traditional Damascus steels and Japanese folded steels had certain strengths and weaknesses, which required different martial arts styles that adapted to the strengths of the blades and mitigated the weaknesses.
Japanese blades were sharper and tougher than scapels, but only when used to cut in a certain stance, a certain vibration control, and with no edge turning. An inexperienced slicer would try to cut harder objects with a blade, and the blade will chip or break.
What people like to do is compare styles and tools, because only people at a certain level can judge the skill of the user rather than the quality of the tools.
I recently resumed cello playing after sitting out for decades. Sold my 1700s cello last year for >$30K, now playing a leased (for peanuts!) Chinese newly-made. Almost all new string instruments come from China. It sounds good, though not as warm as the old one! Though the fingerboard is not quite right. Or is it my fingers?
Oddly, old instruments must be kept in tune and played or the old woods crack. Which is why I sold my old one.
There remain significant differences between individual violins and between the other strings as well. They are not interchangeable, do not yield the same sound.
Violins of the Stradivarius era were supposedly made of an especially dense wood, possibly caused by the cold temperatures during the Maunder Minimum. So perhaps in about 30 years, when temperatures have plunged again, we’ll have instruments even better than today; well designed, and made from cold, dense wood.
Frog observes:
I’m not exactly sure on the basis of a casual analysis, why violins – and apparently cellos – are so notably different from guitars in that respect.
I suppose a 1850 Martin has real collectors value, but you don’t (or I don’t at least) see artists flocking to them in order to improve their performances.
Even newer and historically esteemed models, while appreciated, are recognized as tonally … not superior.
Note for example, the appreciative comments on Youtube at what Julian Lage nonetheless manages to do with a historic Gibson L5 at the guitar builders’ convention. With Neo’s permission, once again: https://youtu.be/eJ7aYeU5V-w?t=112
And though there are guys of course who want to play Maccaferris, as near as I can tell they are playing more modern versions and not the same vintage Django played.
Possibly in the case of violins, the level of art and craft attained by makers of those instruments, was achieved almost a couple of centuries before comparable perfections were reached by luthiers.
And I suppose demand in context has something to do with driving progress. How long has it really been since classical performance pieces have been written for the guitar? Just about 150 years or a little more?
And when did the truss rod come out, making steel strings practical? With the newer bracing styles used on modern instruments, more precise carving, and the use of computer controlled machines, one can easily believe the boast of the guitar trade mags that we are living in “the golden age of lutherie”.
And you mention China. My elderly father has a mid ’90 Korean Samik HF 650 bought new many years ago as a knock around instrument to protect the Gibson or the Heritage from wear. It probably never even listed for a grand. Yet it is better than adequate. One of his favorites.
Your comment reminded me to continue to be appreciative of the upside of our “culture”.
These may be the best of times, for some things.
Thanks, DNW, for a most informative comment.
It depends on what you’re looking for, I suppose. Few things are more subjective than the feedback relationship between a musician and the instrument. I’ve done blindfold tests with clarinets and saxophones and baffled my friends – the newest good to great instruments are beautifully made, consistent in scale from top to bottom and easier to play in tune as a rule, but some of the older horns make a kind of sound you can’t really get out of the newer horns, particularly the saxophones.
My old 1927 Martin Handcraft Alto has to be manhandled to play a couple of things, and has two or three notes I have to stretch up or down into tune, but it makes a certain mysterious sound I can’t get out of a modern horn. Like I said, it’s a very strange and personal relationship.
Fascinating and good timing. I’m planning on learning to play the viola in the upcoming months.
Ken Mitchell Says:
May 8th, 2017 at 6:15 pm
Violins of the Stradivarius era were supposedly made of an especially dense wood, possibly caused by the cold temperatures during the Maunder Minimum. So perhaps in about 30 years, when temperatures have plunged again, we’ll have instruments even better than today; well designed, and made from cold, dense wood.
Interesting observation and possibly extremely relevant. Imagine Strads being played in non-climate controlled rooms of the past? Perhaps they were the best sounding instruments under those conditions.
It’s hard to know what to control for in an experiment including the common materials filling a room or maybe even the material the players’ wore. Especially when dealing with the past.
I’m a bit suspicious of the claim that the newer model was louder and sounded better. It is highly likely that in a double blind A/B comparison, the louder one will sound better. Unless the louder one has really bad sound quality. Sound volume is a very important psychoacoustic factor.
Louder violins also make picking out the wrong tones easier. The flaws in sound quality for the newer and louder violins would have been picked out easier, regardless of the level of the audience or the skill of the soloist.
As for traditional violins being quieter, that might just be a quirk of temperatures and moisture, which makes every performance somewhat different. Maybe they could play it as loudly, but the tones would be inaccurate and the musical melody, the sound quality, would drop.
It’s hard to know what to control for in an experiment including the common materials filling a room or maybe even the material the players’ wore. Especially when dealing with the past.
Problem with tradition is that people don’t know the context any more. Karate for Okinawa for example. The knowledge base was supposed to compressed for transmission, but the unpacking usually loses things over 10 generations.
It’s pretty interesting that the martial arts lineages in the West died out due to firearms, but the same did not apply to music.
Ymar Sakar,
What is HRC doing in a nonpolitical thread about old musical instruments? Let’s just be grateful that she’s not president.
Betsy will never give up her strat
as I probably wont ever give up my Buffet
🙂
I played the violin for a while after listening endlessly to John Cale’s work on early Velvet Underground songs Venus in Furs, Heroin, and The Black Angel’s Death Song. I was moved to buy a violin at a pawn shop for $40. I soon found that I could manage an acceptable drone, and to some extent play what I heard inside my head.
I carried this violin in its case with me the summer between my junior and senior years of high school, the summer of 1969, when my best friend and I hitchhiked up and down the Oregon Coast. He and I would jam together in the evenings, much of the noise lost in the wind. He played the oud.
Another song by the Velvet Underground, I’m Waiting for the Man, created a connection for me to Bela Bartok and moved me to take piano lessons from Mrs Grosvenor, who was then 75.
I’m told that the greatness of “great” violins can only be told by the player– that its responsiveness and depth is where the greatness lies, not in the sound. Given the degree to which violins’ characters that way change with weather and how frequently they’ve been played recently, I can believe that there’s something to that. It really is one of the most complex instruments.
bof Says:
May 9th, 2017 at 2:25 am
Is that joke on purpose?
https://www.bing.com/search?q=HRC+edge&PC=U316&FORM=CHROMN
FYI for those reading the ref.