John Lennon, 30 years later
It’s the 30th anniversary of the murder of John Lennon, and for the occasion, Rolling Stone has released the full text of an interview he gave three days before he died. It contains these ironic words:
These critics with the illusions they’ve created about artists – it’s like idol worship…
“What they want is dead heroes, like Sid Vicious and James Dean. I’m not interesting in being a dead (expletive) hero. .. So forget ’em, forget ’em.
Lennon understandably wasn’t interested in being a dead anything. But Mark David Chapman had other ideas for him.
I haven’t written much about Lennon on past anniversaries of his murder. When the event happened thirty years ago, I was distracted from taking more than brief notice by the fact that I was immersed in taking care of an active baby who didn’t sleep much. I’d been a Beatles fan, but not a rabid one. And besides, I was always more of a Paul girl.
Lennon’s murder was sad, it was awful, and it still is. But the veneration of John—or any of the Beatles, for that matter—has always struck me as odd. The Beatles were energetic and funny guys who both embodied and helped form the zeitgeist of the 60s, and they made fabulous music. That’s it—and that should be enough.
I was and am a huge Beatles fan and was devastated on that dark day. That said I have no use for those that have since turned John Lennon into a saint. He was brilliant, talented and often a jerk. He had a warm human side. He was also on many a topic, including politics, a bit simple minded. Bottom line- he put his pants on the same way everybody else does.
More ironic than the quote above is the fact, never really commented on, concerning one of his last Beatle songs, Come Together (Over Me), which includes the repeated phrase “shoot me”.
30 years ago I was 17.
I liked the music. Wasn’t a huge fan (few my age were).
I recall the moment of silence they had for John, and thinkng it was silly.
Big loss. I couldn’t then and can’t now care less about Lennon, and frankly wonder a bit about the maturity of those who did/do.
Lennon got smoked in NY, to which he had fled to escape the punitive taxes of the contemporary Labour Government. “Imagine no possessions.” Indeed.
I’ve known many guys similar to John and i bet he knew many guys similar to himself. I think knowing that, i believe he never quite figured out how to not get pissed over his chosen status and the effect it had on people around him. But who could?
I was a fan of the Beatle’s music. In the 60s it was played everywhere. I remember learning to do the frug to dance to some of the tunes. Friday night Happy Hours at the Officer’s Club was filled with the Beatle, Elvis, Chubby Checkers, and more.
I never understood the veneration for Lennon after the group broke up. I liked his music, but not Lennon’s political and spiritual ideology. He seemed to have a messiah complex that, from my point of view, was creepy.
McCartney has done a lot of excellent post Beatle’s music too, but, again, don’t care for his politics. I agree with Laura Ingraham when she says, “They should just shut up and sing.”
Big loss. I couldn’t then and can’t now care less about Lennon, and frankly wonder a bit about the maturity of those who did/do…
What the? Whatever. Sorry don’t agree. The Beatles were an orgasmic phenomonon, and probably had a greater influence on every aspect of our culture over the last twenty years most likely even influencing your life in ways you don’t even realise. Whatever music you do listen to or like, I guarantee has been impacted by those four gents. It is no more mature to deride them (Are you listening Michael Stipe) than to worship them. It is in fact ignorant to dismiss them regardless of whether you appreciate their appeal. For myself, I agree with Derek Taylor when he said they were the greatest romance of the 20th Century.
Sorry, I guess I should have renewed my subscription to Tiger Beat.
Like I said, ignorant.
He was no George Gershwin.
The Beatles were a phenomonon bigger than George Gershwin. Gershwin had his genius to be sure. But he hardly had the impact on our society that the Beatles did. And I willingly concede that much of that influence has not been positive. They have destroyed as much as they have helped to create. But no one making music today is doing so outside of the sphere of their influence whether they know it or not.
I’m not deriding them. I just don’t care. Or to put it more positively, I care(d) about them exactly as much as they care(d) about me. Which suits me just fine, as presumably, it does them.
Seriously, you’re embarrassing yourself gushing about them like a 14-year old girl with a poster on her bedroom wall. (“Win a dream date with Ringo!”). Please. Hero worship is for adolescents, apparently ones of all age groups.
I have never understood the emotional investment some people have in pop singers — Lennon, Michael Jackson, Tupac Shakur, Sinatra, Mr. Como…, any of them. They’re just entertainers…, that’s all! Same with movie stars. Their public persona are fantasies. A little perspective, please.
Yes you are. And now you’re deriding me. Ad hominen attack is always the way to go when you haven’t got anything of substance in the way of an argument.
When I said you were ignorant, it wasn’t intended as an insult. Clearly you are unaware of the numerous ways in which the Beatles changed the world.
I’m not gushing about them like a 14 year-old. Nothing I’ve said praise-wise has centered on their personalities. I’m talking about their music and cultural influence. you the one who is embarrassing for your lack of understanding with regard to culture. I don’t worhip them and I made that plain in my very first post on the topic.
Clearly I lack the cool intellectual integrity of folks like Occam’s Beard and D.B. Light, two individuals of considerable prowess who are above the passions and preoccupations of mere mortals like myself.
Last time I checked there was a considerable distance between having respect for achievement in an art form or influence on culture and history and blind hero worship. Perhaps when you get that brainy it’s hard to hear the prattle of lowly life forms. That seems to be Obama’s argument. Evidently its yours as well. Clearly you had a tin ear for the music and for me as well.
Lennon was a great talent like Sean Penn. And like Sean Penn, I wish he had kept his talents where they belonged. If Lennon is your hero, you’re in serious need of deprogramming.
The Beatles did influence music but as far as culture, what good were Lennon’s influences: He would have made a great Obama supporter. That’s the kind of loser he was.
Ricky Martin has influenced us in so many ways, not as many as the Spice Girls, Tiny Tim, or the Monkees, mind you, but still, a giant to whom we owe so much. We should have made La Vida Loca our national anthem (especially since Nov. 2, 2008) in recognition of his towering achievement and contributions to our culture. Our lives are all richer for his having come into them.
Hey, I think I get it now.
Curtis, go back and reread my posts a few more times. I don’t worship Lennon or any other public figure. Fact is I never found much to like about him on a personal level. As for you and some others other posters on this thread, your arrogance is as insufferable as those you presume to call losers.
Why don’t you explain for the benefit of the rest of us precisely what constitutes a loser and why. We could all use a little enlightenment here.
I am of the opinion that so long as this Republic survives Lennon and Sean Penn and even yourself are free to put your talents wherever you please and anyone who feels they belong someplace else can go to blazes.
Occam, you are pathetic. The whole way in which music is made, from instrumentation to recording techniques, to the technology has been born out of the labors and genius of the Beatles. Their first film has had a huge impact and influence in cinema. I could go on but it would be wasted on you.
You’re in a class by yourself. It’s the best way to avoid contagion.
Adrian, please don’t think (due to my remark coming right after yours) that my comment is referring to you. You definitely have made it known Lennon wasn’t your hero. I understood your position and think it a reasonable one. You’re absolutely right to point to the huge influence of the Beatles and of John Lennon. My point is that, at least for John Lennon, his influence was negative.
He was the hippies main spokesman and symbol. He was a loser because of his feminism, anti-Vietnam knee jerkism, drug use, liberalism, Tariq Ali, primal scream therapy, “give peace a chance,” “imagine,” Oko Yono, and pretty much anything and everything he did and was except for the music he made with the Beatles.
Orgasmic phenomenon… the greatest romance of the 20th Century? No worship there. Nosir. Just cool deliberative assessment.
Now you’re making me wish Chapman had stepped up sooner. Back in Hamburg would have been good.
On the contrary, I’m quite familiar with culture. I’ve cultured E. coli and C. pasteurianum many times.
So it would seem.
Yes, and so far I’ve been successful in avoiding it.
Bottom line: Lennon was a musician. A lot of people liked his music. Now he’s dead. The end.
Orgasmic phenomenon… the greatest romance of the 20th Century? No worship there. Nosir. Just cool deliberative assessment.
When Derek Taylor refered the Beastles as the greatest romance of the 20th Century he was refering to the degree to which they have been covered in the press and in books. I’d dare say that is indeed cool deliberative assessment based on ahem “the degree to which they have been written about in the press and literature”, like it or not it’s accurate and does not require an appreciation for them as people or their muisc to concede its true. If I state the Brandenburg Concerto is an orgasmic phenomenon I fail to see that it in anyway consitutes worship. It’s a matter of aesthics and nothing more.
Bootom line: You’re not funny. You’re not cute. And ridicule does not constitute an argument. And the comment about his assasination was shameful to say about ANYONE.
As for hero worship, you seem to have quite a thing for yourself.
Who is Derek Taylor?
I thought the Beatles were a pretty good party band. You could jump around to them well enough, with sufficient beer.
Never interested in listening to them just to listen.
Then they went to India and came back thinking, or got others thinking, that they were some kind of philosophers.
Losers.
When Derek Taylor refered the Beastles as the greatest romance of the 20th Century he was refering to the degree to which they have been covered in the press and in books.
So coverage is the criterion? So presumably a certain Austrian corporal was a pretty great romance of the 20th Century too, though perhaps not as much of an influence as the Beastles. (Love the typo, btw.)
And the comment about his assasination was shameful to say about ANYONE.
Lennon wasn’t assassinated. He was murdered. Assassination is the murder of a poiltical figure.
If I remember correctly, the Beatles wore coats and ties as startups. They were part of the curling edge of a huge corrosive wave of dumbing down that swept all before it, Which persists. Now we have Tupac Shakur.
Two years ago I heard a replay of a Jack Benny program from the early ’50s. For those of you much younger, he was an extremely prominent, successful radio comic, but also an accomplished violinist who used his fiddle as a prop. All radio shows then were produced live in front of studio audiences. On this occasion, the tag line of his joke was, “They did fortissimo instead of pianissimo.” The audience laughed vigorously.
Not 1 in 100 would get that today. QED.
Funny (not ha ha funny) how the orgasmic 60’s engendered Lenin/Obama. One conservative thinker (probably a ha ha funny one) of whom I don’t remember his name, said the iconic symbol of the totalitarian Soviet regime was a raised clenched fist; the symbol for the West was an erection.
The ongoing dialectic of history (change we need, we are the ones we’ve been waiting for) has provided a synthesis: The fist is unclenched and there’s a whole lot of stroking going on, but the “masculine organ or generation” is limp.
Thus failed the value-creating éœbermensch, both the Eastern and Western version. It will be up to the Christians to defeat the Muslims.
As far as Lennon: It would have been more interesting had he lived. He might have refudiated!
I am sure there is a lot written about Lennon. But check out Wikipedia on John Lennon. Don’t care how great his music was, but the man was anything but. And I doubt we care as much of the man if he was not murdered.
*YAWN* who?
I also number myself among those who are 100% indifferent to all things Beatle. Sometimes it strays into the detestation area but for the most part I. just. don’t. care. Imagine no “Imagine”.
Of course, 30 years ago I was not even a twinkle in the eye. I don’t think my parents had even gotten married yet.
Aw man, I sort of feel like writing “Imagine II” – “Imagine there’s no fight/ Between OB and Adrian Day.”
I admire and respect both of you – and I’m probably a good twenty years younger, so I ought to show respect on that basis alone. All of which I say as throat-clearing before a maybe lame effort to try and defuse this mini-quarrel.
I think Adrian’s point is simply that the Beatles were hugely influential on what most people call “culture.” OB, if I’m not mistaken, argues that to call that “culture” is ludicrous and, moreover, to get ecstatic in any way about celebrities, be they actors or musicians, is ill-advised.
So construed, I don’t see what the argument is about. I agree with Adrian that it’s simply a fact, regardless of how one feels about our “culture,” that the influence of the Beatles was massive. And I say that as someone who never “got” their music (most likely a generational thing). I never liked any of their music, still don’t, and have no intention of liking it in the future. But I just don’t see how my indifference to their music shows that it was not influential. Clearly it was.
By all means correct me if I’m wrong, but OB seems to be saying something like: influential or not, what the music influenced was insignificant and shouldn’t be confused with real “culture.” I might agree with that too, as perhaps Adrian would (he has said repeatedly that he doesn’t have any rosy views about their influence – some of it was good, some of it was bad, etc.).
Point is, the two claims are not incompatible – OB is making observations about the poverty of our imaginations and our sense of what constitutes culture. Adrian is bracketing that discussion and merely observing that the Beatles had a huge influence on music and movies and our idea of celebrity – and those are not insignificant aspects of our “culture” today.
All right, I’m done. Open fire.
moreover, to get ecstatic in any way about celebrities, be they actors or musicians, is ill-advised.
Bullseye.
They are not the ones we’ve been waiting for. No one is. Grownups by definition aren’t waiting for anyone. The converse is also true.
Musicians play music. Actors recite lines written by someone else. That’s it. No need for a roll call on Mount Olympus to make sure no one has gone AWOL.
To zeroth order, celebrities are the dregs of society, and in Victorian times were generally considered as such. (Lindsay Lohan not fit for polite society? Hard to believe, I know.)
If the Beatles hadn’t existed, some other group would have taken their place in the pantheon of pop culture, but the Earth would still have rotated on its axis.
This is off-topic, but unavoidable because this is the ONLY thing I’ve been thinking about all day long:
December 8, 2010 will go down in history too, thanks to the spectacularly successful first test flight of the Dragon space capsule atop its Falcon 9 rocket (it was only the second flight for Falcon).
Dragon is expected to begin unmanned cargo flights to the ISS in about a year, and it is hoped that a manned version will fly in about three years. It will carry a crew of seven to Earth orbit and back (same as the shuttle) and its heat shield is designed to withstand a reentry from the Moon or Mars (definitely not the same as the shuttle).
Here are a couple of links:
SpaceX (the company site, with lots of information about the capsule and rocket)
Space Transport News (a space-related blog, with plenty of links to other reactions and commentary)
I’ve been beside myself with joy all day. The flight exceeded everyone’s expectations. This is a real game-changer. As Joe Biden might say, it’s a Big Effin Deal.
Occam:
You’re splitting hairs. Assasination /murder. God forbid I should elevate Lennon in my misguided hero worship to the level of a politician who unlike celebrities, truly are important.
As to Taylor’s comment, if one makes an argument, and cites evidence that it is true, well you welcome to decide for yourself whether the criteria is appropriate or whether you agree. A romance in this instance constitutes a passion or obsession, whether its about the Kennedys, Elvis or the Beatles, I suppose the volume with which they have been written about is a reasonable argument or criteria. Does that mean you should think their that important. No. Clearly you don’t. Nor do I care whether you do. But their influence is a considerable bit more concrete than you care to acknowledge, and not a question of liking them.
Much of that influence, quite frankly is not even to my liking. I agree with Curtis that there is much that is negative in the influence the Beatles have had including their effect on our politics. The fact that Rock n’ Roll dominates our culture musically (the soundtrack to our movies, the tool to sell products in advertisement, even effecting our sensibilities) I blame on the Beatles and it is not a good thing.
So get over yourself and get making me out to be some star struck teenbopper.
As to the typo, you have been so disrespectful, I had to backtrack and make sure it was a typo and not another one of your adolescent embellishments. If you enjoyed it, hey, whatever gets you thru the night man. Who am I stand in the way of a cheap thrill?
Adrian: Get a grip.
I was 13 when John Lennon was murdered. I vividly remember seeing the newscasters break down announcing the story. I hadn’t been very interested in the Beatles up until that point, but soon after I started buying Beatles records from the used record store and fell head over heels in love with their music.
I never cared for much of John Lennon’s post-Beatles music. I felt that his music became very unfocused and uneven. There was an interview once where he said that “Some Time In New York City” nearly destroyed him as a musician. Other people were using his talents and putting their words in his mouth. John Lennon had a competitive edge that he lost when he lost Paul McCartney. Those two kept each other honest and fixed each others songs. Once, Paul McCartney was writing a song with the chorus “You can give me golden rings”. John Lennon told him that the chorus was rubbish and gave him a new line — “Baby you can drive my car.” When Paul first played “Hey Jude” for John, he played the song all the way through. Then he told John that the line “The movement you need is on your shoulder” was just a filler, and he was going to change it. John’s response was something on the order of, “Don’t you dare change that line! I know exactly what you mean and it’s perfect.”
The one song that I think was John’s biggest mistake was “Imagine.” I was always neutral towards that song, but in the last few years it has gone flat for me as I watch the failure of Obama socialism in practice. Whenever I hear, “Imagine no possessions”, what I see in my mind is one of those pictures of thousands of starving Africans stretching back into the distance. No possessions means no wealth, which means poverty for everyone. Hardly a utopia. I was at a “walk for the cure” cancer event last summer, and the musician performing on the stage started into Imagine. I had to leave. In the world of “Imagine”, there would be no drug companies. No research. No cures. It seemed to me an act of supreme thoughtlessness for a crowd of people to be raising money to cure cancer, yet dreaming idly of a world in which such a cure would never come.
I think my favorite post-Beatles Lennon song is “Instant Karma.” There’s a lot of good stuff in that song.
Prager, what can’t he say simply and nicely?
http://townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2010/12/07/f—_you_from_the_music_industry
One line summary: The music industry is populated by those who hate and have degenerated our culture.
‘Imagine” is the biggest piece of rubbish ever written by a mainsteam artist. It’s dreary, boring and the lyrics are outright infantile. it’s like bad adolescent poetry…mixed with socialism. The beatles were the beginning of the end of western culture.
Tom:
I am a patron regular vistor to this site and comment frequently without managing to antagonize others. I don’t appreciate the kind of bullying and demeaning nature of Occams comments. It’s uncalled for. It fine to disagree, even strongly disagree and put forth ones case but to purposely distort another person’s position or nitpick to this degree is unnecessary. It’s over the top. I have every right to defend myself and my position. If you want to referee then call foul where it belongs.
Where were you on “Tiger Beat”, “Gushing like a 14 year old” or “Chapman should have stepped in sooner”? I can make a case for my views without picking a fight, but I don’t see why I should be expected to stand there and let someone pummel me with personal attacks simply because they don’t have anything else to offer.
I take great offense at charges that in no way are representative of my position. I’m not into hero worship of anyone, least of all John Lennon. If his personal importance is overblown only a fool would hold the position that the Beatles influence on our culture was a minor, and that includes Mr. Lennon himself who once observed that “we were just a band that made it very big.” If that were true the world would be very different today than it is. And I would be willing to consider the argument that it might have been a better one.
But those who imagine that the Beatles contribution was to the world as it is was a minor one, for better or worse are deluding themselves.
You want to make a case to the contrary, well it’s your space as much as mine but I don’t see why anyone can’t do so without insulting me unless they are incapable or articulating a reasonable case to the contrary.
Conversation just before England fell:
“A day in the life?” Damned enjoyable, after all, and quite orchestrated, even though quite subversive. What do you think we should do sir?
Buy their record.
Quite right. Quite right.
Will the crown pay for it?
No. No. We’ll have to uhh fund it ourselves.
I was writing an AP US History final on Lincoln when I heard that Lennon was shot dead.
The thesis of the paper was whether or not Abraham Lincoln truly believed in emancipation of slaves in its own right, or did he use the issue of slavery as an opportunist to advance his own political fortunes?
We had every Beatles album in the house, and I probably heard them all hundreds (if not seemingly thousands) of times.
As far as I can tell, John Lennon was an angry but charismatic super-talent, and a begrudging super-star who ultimately proved to be rather misanthropic and generally miserable (even after making hundreds of millions of dollars, living in The Dakota, and coming clean from heroin.)
Yet, there is admittedly something irresistible and glorious about the Let It Be “rooftop concert.”
Shortly after Lennon’s death, I discovered Gustav Mahler – there is nothing greater in this world than the end of the Second Symphony – and to my mind, it was Mahler that invented Modern Culture.
Or not.
YMMV
Just sayin’
I didn’t realize that you could be so … emotional.
MeTooThen: Your fourth paragraph: perfect.
jms:
Yeah, “Instant Karma” rocks.
/Now, don’t nobody get me started on Bob Dylan…
Adrian –
if you’re so upset by personal attacks, maybe you shouldn’t accuse folks of being immature when they don’t agree with you.
I’ve gone from a teen who bought all their early Beatlers albums to a senior who finds the endless fawning over their living and dead almost unbearable, most recently the sing-a-along at the KenCen Honors for the insufferable Paul McCartney (something I read about but could never have endured).
The first time I heard “Imagine” I honestly thought the tune a parody. You can well imagine what I thought when I realized that the dreck was serious.
“Hard Days Night” was a very good film which still bears watching. Their next, “Help”, was as bad a film as I’ve ever seen, one which revealed their limitations in that realm.
The late Mr. Taylor was merely a Beatles’ publicist, not quite on a par with Jacques Barzun a culture historian:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derek_Taylor
Ain’t that the truth. The Plastic Ono Band, Cold Turkey.
neo,
Personally, I thoutht the movie, A Hard Day’s Night, was rather funny, and showed the moppets in a good light. Unlike that unplanned disaster of a movie, Help!.
I also remember reading somewhere once that Lennon and McCartney had a deal early on when they were starting out: Whoever of the two wrote a song, they would put both their names on the song, which is why there are George Harrison and Ringo Starr Beatles songs, but no John Lennon or Paul McCartney Beatles songs, only Lennon/McCartney songs.
And yeah, Sir Paul’s politics suck, as did Lennon’s.
Slightly off topic:
for love of all that’s holy, folks, the xhtml cheat sheet is RIGHT THERE, above the comment box. If you can’t remember how to write italics or even blockquote when you’re QUOTING someone, it’s right there. It is NOT THAT HARD!
Occam’s Beard: It’s not quite that simple. Assassination is not strictly limited to political figures. The term can encompass the murder of public figures, not just political ones. Here’s a definition. And here’s a discussion of whether or not Lennon was assassinated.
Reading Flynn’s Country of The Blind, in which a reclusive cabal attempts to guide history. Wheels within wheels and so forth.
One of the current wheels has successfully made the citizenry docile and malleable, in part by mushy entertainment, which would include–although it’s not in the book–cultural tsunamis over stuff like American Idol and DWTS.
An organization that didn’t like the mushing of the American citizenry would naturally assassinate Lennon.
That is, murder is murder but assassination is murder of a public figure for some public purpose.
I don’t actually believe this is happening, at least not the pushback. Too many mush heads getting all the ink. Too few are having one-car accidents on empty roads.
Although, Flynn says, some of the folks who push back are sidelined by easily ginned-up scandals. Mel Gibson comes to mind.
Anyway, it’s all fiction. Or at least, that’s where the library had shelved it.
Hey, Occam. You think Flynn’s got the least hypothesis here?
No, it’s not a conspiracy. It’s just natural.
I was a youngster when Lennon was murdered; I quickly came to hate “Imagine” because it was played constantly. But I liked “Yesterday”, which I hadn’t heard until after his murder.
But I don’t like most of the music that was influenced by the Beatles. I prefer Motown-, blues- and funk-influenced music – and Old School electronica. In fact, the big news yesterday was the Queen of Soul has pancreatic cancer.
As for pop-canonization of pop stars, I just hope that no one murders any former members of the Spice Girls.
I’ve always wondered when I would get around to posting on this blog, but Adrian Day’s comments inspired me, mainly the following statements:
“Whatever music you do listen to or like, I guarantee has been impacted by those four gents.”
and
“But no one making music today is doing so outside of the sphere of their influence whether they know it or not.”
and
“The whole way in which music is made, from instrumentation to recording techniques, to the technology has been born out of the labors and genius of the Beatles.”
So, Adrian Day, please explain to me how the Beatles impacted Techno and Rap, John Williams’ own influence on movie soundtracks, and Hip Hop.
Trust me, your educated response won’t be wasted on me.
So, what was Lennon’s influence on Henry Purcell?
29. You actually make it seem so easy with your presentation but I find this matter to be really something which I think I would never understand. It seems too complicated and extremely broad for me. I am looking forward for your next post, I’ll try to get the hang of it!