Young people and unemployment
Yesterday on this comments thread there was a smattering of schadenfreude towards young people who voted for Obama and are now out of work.
A number of readers felt that the high rates of unemployment among the young is a case of just desserts: serves them right. And although I want a great many young people to learn the lesson that voting for a con man, an empty suit with little or no experience who makes beautiful promises that mean little or nothing, is a bad idea—and that they retain the information for decades to come, so it doesn’t happen again—there’s no joy in my heart about the rest of it.
Perhaps this is because I know too many hard-working young people who have been unable to find jobs or have been laid off from the ones they had and relied on. They weren’t living beyond their means, but right now they’re hurting. Yes, in many cases they can return to stay with parents, but the stress this will cause on everyone can be huge, and in some cases they have become parents themselves.
As for blame, I can’t find it in my heart to castigate them. I understand far better why and how a young person could have been fooled by Obama than an older one, who has no excuse. This is especially true for very new voters, aged 18 (I happen to think the voting age should have been kept at 21), or even those in their twenties.
What do they know of economic reversals? What have they ever seen? And is it their fault if schools didn’t do a good job of teaching them history, or if they were taught it but the words didn’t have much reality for them until they experienced something similar themselves? Grown-up life’s not called “the school of hard knocks” for nothing.
As Churchill is reported to have said (although apparently, like so many quotes, it is a suspect attribution), “If you’re not a liberal when you’re 25, you have no heart. If you’re not a conservative by the time you’re 35, you have no brain.” Young people can be forgiven for having heart, for wanting to do good, and for being fooled by a good-looking grifter who appeals to that heart. But having their hearts broken is how young people can come to grow up.
I don’t experience joy about it, but rather grim satisfaction. They knew, they were clever, they were going to change the world (that part turned out to be true), they knew the way forward.
But reality bats last, and the reality was that they were morons. All of them. The young who voted for Obama are to politics as subprime borrowers are to finance: idiots who made poor decisions, and are now suffering from the consequences of those poor decisions, as they should be. In their arrogance they chose train tracks as their picnic spot, disregarding the shininess of those tracks and their ominous rumbling, and disdaining the warnings of others.
For both groups, it is important that they suffer, and suffer grievously, first to burn the lesson into the souls of even the most benighted of them, and second to make sure it stays there.
My sympathy lies with those who saw the problem and tried to avert it, but were saddled with it by the morons (i.e., us). But to Obama supporters who are being ground underfoot now, I say, “Good.” You wanted “change?” You got it — good and hard.
I happen to think the voting age should have been kept at 21
Me too, I even thought so at the time. I figure that amendment was introduced to take advantage of the idealistic foolishness of the young and garner Democratic votes. And I suspect the same sort of political calculation influences the current discussion of illegal immigration.
I am not blaming these young people. It is Obama’s economy now. I think if McCain had won and we had at least some say in Congress we might have turned it around. We certainly would not have government motors.
But we would still have quite a few out of work because of the housing and banking bubble. And we as conservatives, Tea Partiers and President Bush would all be getting the blame.
You are a kind and decent person Neo. Try and overcome it. Occam wrote a beautiful comment above, I can add this, that in this day of delayed maturity a 21 year old voting age is too low. 25 for non-military is more like it.
Also I have to disagree that Obama fooled people into supporting him. His character flaws were obvious for anyone who cared to look. People fooled themselves into supporting him. The unemployed are not his main victims, the coalition forces in Iraq and Afghanistan and their families are.
On a lighter note, here is a poem my son wrote; hopefully it will increase your acceptance of the dark side:
Gothanukah and the Dreidel of Doom
By Yair son of Bob from Virginia
I have a little dreidel
That is spinning with disease
It’s not made out of clay
But the blood of my enemies
The Dreidel of Doom was forged by Satan
To please my vengeful heart
But deals with the Devil can go sour in seconds
And rip your soul apart
He told me he would kill them
With plague and pestilence
And trap their souls in a Dreidel
This hell’s Dreidel would be my beneficence!
Damn you O Dark Dreidel!
I made you out of hate
Damn you O Dark Dreidel!
You will soon decide my fate
“Gimel” means I live
“Shin” means I die
“Hay” means I can keep
One of my two eyes
“Nun” means I burn
For eight long days and nights
I don’t think I’ll survive
This dark festival of lights
The Dark Dreidel spins
As I cower in fear
A great miracle would be nice
But it won’t happen here
The Dark Dreidel falls and it’s “gimel” for the win
I awaited Satan’s decree
The Devil gawked at the Dreidel and shouted he
“Best two out of three!”
or
Possible Alternate Ending:
The Dark Dreidel falls and I’m free minus one eye
Which is really not so bad
In fact, come to think of it
still ‘tis the best Hanukah ever had I
What could any reasonable adult expect when our children have been immersed from kindergarten in political correctness, diversity, multiculturalism, environmentalism, equality of outcomes, being taught to be non-judgmental, being asked by their teachers for their feelings rather than their thoughts, getting “A’s” just for showing up, being taught not to compete, not to be aggressive or even ambitious, and the rest of the drivel? They will absorb this lesson in a way that will turn them off to socialism forever. And they will get angry at being asked to pay the tab for the Democrat spending binge that has robbed them of their futures.
The lesson that has to be driven home is that the Dope and his coterie of dwarfs know what they are doing and that all their spending and push to centralize power will do is to create poverty on the way to an envy society. And, because they know what they are doing, they have no excuse for their evil.
I have some sympathy for them. While there were some seeds planted in my late teens and early twenties for my leaving the Democratic Party, it was not until my late twenties to early thirties that I definitively stopped considering myself a supporter of the Democratic Party. Moreover, most of my subsequent Presidential votes were for third party candidates, until 2004 on.
We who are older have more cultural memory to resort to in making decisions than those who are younger. My immediate reaction to ∅bama’s “bring us together” campaign was to think back to the TV adaptation I had seen of Gershwin’s “Of Thee I Sing,” where Julius Wintergreen gets elected President on a platform of love. How many younger people have that cultural memory? Very few.
Younger people were comparing ∅bama to 8 years of George W. Bush. I compared ∅bama to 40 years of fatuous liberals and also to the radicals that he said he gravitated to as a college student.
I cut them some slack.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Thee_I_Sing
I don’t mind the kids being stupid, that’s their job. What irks me is the smarty pants adults who should know better. Althouse, McArdle, Noonan,Parker,Brooks,Buckley. They knew Barry’s history but he gave them a wet little spot in their granny panties.That’s all it took.
The quote is from early-1800’s French Conservative politician Francois Guizot:
“Not to be a republican (socialist) at twenty is proof of want of heart;to be one at thirty is proof of want of head.”
It was later repeated in modified fashion by Georges Clemenceau and Herbert Spencer, among others.
What about those of us who didn’t fall for the deification of Obama? I never voted for him – not for Senate (though Alan Keyes went psychotic on campaign) and not for President. This economy doesn’t make only effect people who voted for Obama, just like how the entire nation is at.
I realized in high school that sometimes you need to be able to fight and kill to protect what you care about. I also could never get over the Left’s hate of Western civilization. I like computers and clean water, thank you very much. If I live another 28 years, it will be in spite of Obama, not because of him.
Thank you Soviet.
I long ago learned the source of the age/political-stance quote as Clemenceau. The early 1800s source you identified, Guizot, put down the “republican;” since one wonders if the “conservative” identification existed then, was Guizot a royalist?
Our current arrogant and ignorant, educated Obama-class remind me of the French Royalist class that I have seen in the movies (I am fully willing to be bigoted). That bothers me, since the royalist-style self-approval fits many Republicans, as well as Democrats not on welfare, or in affirmative action jobs.
Any snowball’s chance in hell that I would take Obama seriously as a moderate was gone when I found out he had been in Reverend Wright’s church for 20 years. The fact that he claimed that he’d never heard Reverend Wright say any of those things in his 20 year relationship didn’t excuse his presence in that church, it simply proved he was a bald-faced liar on top of everything else. One look at who he chose to associate with over many decades of life (Bill Ayers included) gave you all the information you needed to know about his character and beliefs. Why anyone who appreciates the opportunities America provides would vote for someone like that is beyond me. Perhaps, too many people don’t appreciate the opportunities in front of them and simply want someone to do all the heavy lifting for them.
Hard to say if it’s grim satisfaction, schadenfreude, or something else.
It would be something else if the supporters of zero hadn’t been such bleepheads toward the rest of us.
I turn the issue around for Obamanauts: “What exactly would it have taken for you to question the Messiah’s divinity?”
Seriously, what?
His pastor is an American hating Marxist lunatic? No problem.
His pal is a bomb-throwing terrorist (and a cowardly one into the bargain)? No problem.
He has what must be the funkiest life story in history, with a staggering plethora peculiar coincidences, odd happenstances, and incredibly lucky breaks, once he got out of Witness Protection? No problem.
A track record of accomplishment rivaled only by people working at drive-up windows? No problem.
Turning off address verification to accept overseas campaign contributions (in contravention of law)? No problem.
Blurting out Marxist talking points (e.g., redistributing the wealth) in unguarded moments? No problem.
His crotch salutes to the flag, and reluctance to wear an American flag lapel pin (“because that’s not ‘true’ patriotism;” please), in a fashion reminiscent of a werewolf’s aversion to garlic? No problem.
I feel like grabbing Obamanauts by the lapels and shouting at them, “Well, if all of that didn’t give you pause for thought, what the hell would have?”
Gringo is ahead of me. I still, albeit unhappily, said I was a Democrat until “and a member of the Joe Lieberman wing of the party” seemed fatuous.
So 2008 was the first time I voted Republican for president and I blush to report that I voted Democratic in 1972, 1976, and 1980. And even so, I left the voting booth in 2008 hoping that in four years I’d cheerfully admit that I’d made a mistake.
Unfortunately I don’t see that happening and when my cousin incredulously asked, “You voted for Sarah Palin?” my response was, “And you voted for Joe Biden?” Whatever else Palin is, she’s not a fool and Biden indubitably is. Besides, after 2004 Democrats are not in a good position to cast aspersions on someone else’s v-p choice.
Long since ceasing to be an ideologue, I don’t wish hardship or misery on people generally, but we can hope that the younger generation will draw a lesson from their enthusiasm for Obama.
It will be “interesting” to see what political trends the now-unemployed Obama lovers will follow in the future. I will say no more because I must maintain the appearance of caring.
A big acting job is in my future, for a long long time.
(Said with grim determination to keep mouth shut for decades)
Because the MSM and lefty education have sold the young on the wisdom and superiority of liberalism, they are unlikely to connect their economic struggles with progressive policies. They think minimum wage increases help young people. They think government spending creates prosperity. They think taxing rich people helps the poor. They think leaning on business helps the middle class. They think that restrictions on coal and oil has no effect on the economy. They think that giving mortgages to poor people is a good idea.
All they need to know about their economic troubles is Bush is at fault.
It will be a long,long time, I safely predict, before the young learn the necessary lessons. That is always the way, the way it has been and will be.
The only salvation of today’s deluded and horribly misinformed young will be through protracted suffering. Which is being arranged for them by those they esteem the most.
Earlier generations suffered while much younger, so had learned before reaching adulthood.
Today’s young are all Groupies. Where are their new leaders, their new stars and celebs? They have not arisen.
I’m afraid Mr. Frank is right. For many so-called “educated” young Obama voters, their indoctrination in leftism is so complete that anyone who presents facts which contradict their worldview is eyed with suspicion or dismissed completely. It will take more than prolonged unemployment to jar them out of their fatuous worldview. Many of them still read Krugman or Rich or listen the insane televised rants of Maddow and Olberman. Besides, they’ve been educated in a manner that has placed their precious self-esteem above all else, and that, in turn, has fostered an entitlement mentality. Consequently, anyone who talks about budget cuts or limiting unemployment or so on is, in their view, to be regarded as dangerous and evil.
At the same time, like Neo, I can’t help but try to imagine myself in their shoes. I’m currently on a hiring committee for a vacancy at the organization where I work, and there are so many qualified applicants for the vacancy that most members of the search committee automatically dismiss out of hand anyone who doesn’t have at least a few years of experience in a similar job. Consequently, no recent graduates are even being considered seriously, no matter how hard they worked in school or what they did there.
I cannot say that I wish suffering for people, but as suffering is a part of life, there are times when it imparts wisdom that was previously not there.
At the risk of trying to “have it both ways”: I’m with Neo in not being happy to see the younger generation go through hard times. Yet, I’m extremely happy that the bubble has burst for Obama-mania. The thing most offensive about it was its utter mindlessness . . . not on the part of Obama himself, who I have finally been convinced was a schemer and a conniver from the beginning… but among those who thoughtlessly followed him with sunny vacuous smiles on their faces, enraptured at the thought of “change” notwithstanding their own inability to explain what kind of “change” they were looking for. Its a sad but good thing to be able to say “welcome to the real world.”
I realize youth of many generations go through this “idealistic” phase, but I honestly think that rarely has it taken a form so devoid of substance and lack of consideration for what they were asking for. I know some on this board will diagree with this, but I think it is a symptom of the decline of “progressivism”. . . a movement which I think was never perfect (as no human actions are), but which once stood, at least in its moderate form, for practical improvements in the lives of people during part of the 20th century… safe workplace conditions and a decent wage for labor, actual equal rights for women and minorities, etc… but which has declined since the ’60s to encompass instead boundless leftist radicalism, socialist economics, endless stoking of race and gender animosity, and the sort of pie-in-the-sky thoughless irrational “idealism” represented by the youth vote for Obama.
One more thing: I dont wish suffering for anyone, but whatever suffering these unemployed young go through, it could not compare to the suffering my parents, as refugees from Castro’s Cuba had to go through… in a new country with a language they barely understood having to start life anew. My father, who had a university degree in Cuba, had to start again working as a custodian and an assembly plant worker. These young former Obamaites will go through some pain and realism, but it will lift someday and things will improve, leaving them sadder but wiser.
Exactly, which is why, on occasion, faced with an arrogant, snotty graduate or undergraduate (and despite my general aversion to the Paper Chase ethos), I’ve intentionally crushed the ego of my interlocutor under foot, to make a point: he had something to learn. Lots, in fact. As do we all, every man jack of us.
Most individuals recognize this instinctively, but some do not, and for them, humiliation is a necessary prerequisite to make them receptive to learning. In such people, particularly first-year graduate students, tearing down their personalities is a prerequisite to rebuilding them in a more constructive form, as the Marine Corps has long appreciated.
Arguably this kind of reality check is the central purpose of Ph.D. dissertation defenses. While a genteel formality in most cases, the dissertation defense is a critical time to contrive the juxtaposition of pin and balloon in those who self-evidently reckon that the imminence of gaining the Ph.D. means that they’ve arrived, and their education is now finished, rather than just beginning. For that select crew, a couple of hours of getting vigorously reamed out with a pineapple has a salutory effect.
I am 42. I would not have been fooled by Obama at 22, 18, or even 12. The youth that voted for him deserve what they are getting.
and the original voting age was what? and what where the restrictions? just checking…
I have to agree with Mr. Frank. While some young people will learn from adversity, I fear the majority who have been thoroughly indoctrinated in school, have no knowledge of history, and who get their political opinions from musicians and actors will end up demanding more socialism, not less.
Pain is the best motivator for change. Since the 18-35 demographic seems a little behind the curve on economics, it’ll be a long, but a necessary recovery. Sadly better educated citizens like the Japanese fell for the same economic schemes of Keynes and Marx.
But Rickl and Frank may be right that some (most) will never learn and demand more of the govt that’s harming them. I don’t agree. I believe most people adopt a surface understanding of politics and current events but even here the message of greater frugality eventually seeps into them. After all, this is the generation that understands they won’t collect Social Security.
As a 40 year old who had a core belief change when I was 21 – I can see both sides.
This problem applies to African Americans (unemployment rate in RECORD numbers this year).
This problem applies to unmarried young women – their non-children won’t be paying the generational theft that has happened this last year.
This problem applies to group after group after group.
Should we have special heartfelt feelings for the young?
Yes – but tough love should be prescribed.
The virus was liberalism and picking up everybody’s pieces.
The prescription is letting people see that they need to choose wisely and pick up their own selves by their bootstraps.
Nobody owes ANY able bodied person anything. Get your butt out of the chair, step away from the keyboard and earn yourself a living, get educated and vote for people who understand economics 101 and personal responsibility.
Our country depends on it.
And btw, I love you dear liberal. Even if you spread misery.
Occam’s said, “Most individuals recognize this instinctively, but some do not, and for them, humiliation is a necessary prerequisite to make them receptive to learning. In such people, particularly first-year graduate students, tearing down their personalities is a prerequisite to rebuilding them in a more constructive form, as the Marine Corps has long appreciated.”
Ah, yes, you mean something like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=diWtQkJwLwE
Tough love to create the few, the proud, the Marines. Enjoy!
J.J. formerly Jimmy J.:
LOL!
J.J., I’ve previously alluded a bit to my father’s winning a battlefield commission on Iwo Jima, but hadn’t mentioned that he had also been a DI.
Paradoxically, however, I was never on the receiving end of the DI treatment from him, being always eager to learn whatever I could from whomever I could.
Good thing, too!
Having said that, on watching “Full Metal Jacket” I cringed when GySgt. Hartman bellows at a private, “What’s your excuse?” and the hapless private responds, “Sir, excuse for what, sir?”
Wrong answer.
Correct answer: “Sir, no excuse, sir!”
Reading these comments I get the impression you think if McCain had gotten in, the economy would somehow be in better shape? I find that very hard to believe. As inspired the idea as “cutting pork” was, I doubt its effects would have been quite so transformational.
And who are all these people weeping into their tea over the fact they voted for Obama? I am still glad I did, I never expected miracles. The people I know who did feel the same way. This is a rather small poll I’ll grant you, but the way these comments read you’d think every last supporter now despised the guy.
One thing I do often wonder is if we might have been better off with Hillary. Not because I prefer her, I just wonder if the hatred from the right might have been less intense with her?
If that had been the case maybe the party’s would have worked together a little more? My wife thinks this is a crazy notion. She says you all hate Hillary with such vehemence nothing would be different. I can’t helping thinking though, that Obama’s being black and the vestigial distrust that stirs in your less rational ranks has really helped cement the hate. More so than with past Democratc Presidents.
Soviet of Washington: thanks for providing the origin of the quote! I’ve been misquoting it (“If you’re not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you’re not a conservative at 40, you have no brain”), and mis-attributing it to Churchill, for years.
Charles Krauthammer wrote (paraphrased) that conservatives think liberals are stupid, while liberals think conservatives are evil. That, to me, is a corollary of the previous thought; a person without a brain is stupid, a person without a heart is evil.
I think it’s self-evident that American conservatives, collectively, are not evil; if they were half as intent on dictatorship as liberals accuse them of, they’d have done it already. (I used to get so sick of hearing people predict that GWB would cancel elections and make himself dictator. I’d demand to know what they based their predictions upon. This country has NEVER canceled Presidential elections.). But there doesn’t seem to be any way to convince liberals of that.
DiB
Simon, Hillary is cut from the same Marxist cloth as the Vacationer-in-Chief is. (Hillary’s college thesis was on Saul Alinsky, who is one of Obowma’s Founding Ideologues. But what Obowma did in college we do not know.)
I loathe them both so, to me, they are differences without a distinction.
Oh, and I don’t really care if Obowma is polka-dotted. It’s the America-hating ideology that he has as part of his ‘down in his bones’ make-up that I cannot stand. Race has nothing to do with it, except in the so-called minds of liberals, who are the most racist people there are (the dirty little secret no lib ever wants to admit).
As for that ‘hate’ thingy, we all remember the hatred shown toward Chimpy McBushHitler, the devil spawn of Haliburton. But that was ‘patriotic dissent’. Now? Not so much. Now dissent is having temper tantrums and being tea-bagging racists. Funny how that works.
Did Simon pull the race card?
Crap. He needs to get a clue. It’s maxed out. See Jon Stewart.
Useless. Lame. Busted. Dead. Past sell-by date. Over.
Try again, Simon. It’s fun watching.
Simon Says:
September 4th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
Sadly, no. McCain is a RINO, in case you haven’t been paying attention. He would probably have had the same Keynesian-type economic advisers that Obama has. Statists love Keynes.
I’ll type this very slowly so you can understand.
It’s…because…Obama…is…a…Marxist…who…hates…America. More…so…than…previous…Presidents…of…either…party.
Simon,
I don’t hate Obama. I’m sure that if we didn’t talk politics and policy that we could sit down and have a beer in good fellowship. What so many people on the left side of the fence do not get is how crazy his policies make us.
We are in a very bad recession. That means that the private sector is suffering from a lack of confidence. The way to change that is not to expand the size of the government, make energy more expensive, raise taxes, and spend new billions on government programs that don’t create wealth. We need the government to set the stage, to create the conditions that will give the private sector confidence that they can make money if they hire and invest. Alas, everything Obama, Reid, and Pelosi have done has been just the opposite. It drives me and others here CRAZY that they don’t understand how the economy works. They will not listen to, compromise with, nor work with the Republicans. No, they say they won and now they don’t have to work with the other side or even listen to the citizens. They are bankrupting the country and are too ideologically blind to see it. Thus, people are going mad with concern. It brings out anger and a ill feelings that often become personal.
“But having their hearts broken is how young people can come to grow up.”
This was not needed in a better educational environment, when harsh truth of human existence were integral part of education. But in our times, when infantilisation became one of the main goals of education and of pop culture, it seems that broken heart is the only way left to became a mature person.
Guys, don’t waste the pixels. “Simon” is no more an American than I’m an Indonesian.
No American in recorded history is named “Simon.” And Americans don’t “weep into their tea.” Young “Simon” no more voted for Obama than I voted for Joe Stalin.
It is natural for a young person to believe that he/she is entitled to everything good in universe, and this is the main task of educators (parents, teachers) to destroy this belief. People became grown up to extent they can overcome their childish narcissism. When educators fail in this mission, reality takes its revenge by more painful means.
And by the way, “Simon,” tell all your fellow Brit twats that their choice vis a vis the Muslims is simple: prevail, or perish.
We won’t let you losers into our country. Britain or British Islam delenda est. Your call which. We don’t care. And we won’t be bailing you out this time. You’re on your own.
Sometimes, it is possible to remember the date, place and hour when you made the transition from youth to adulthood. A watershed moment. For me, this was 21 August 1968, when heard about Soviet invasion to Chechoslovakia. I was 21, and since this hour I did not believe in Communism anymore, or that Communist regime can be reformed. It has many consequencies for understanding other, non-political issues as well, and for my departure from other tenets of liberalism and godless humanism.
Neo:
It was George Bernard Shaw, and I believe what he actually said was, “If you’re not a communist when you’re 20, you have no heart, and if you’re still a communist when you’re 40, you have no brains.”
Simon:
Who says Obama’s black? Were his ancestors slaves? Did they live through Jim Crow? Did he experience the civil rights movement? Did he grow up in a black family? Live in a black neighborhood? Go to black schools? Attend a historically black college? I’m sure it never crossed his mind that he was black until somebody at Occidental said to him, “You know, you could have a great career in politics if you identified yourself as black.” Whereupon he transferred to Columbia to get away from all the people in Hawaii and Occy who know him as Barry, and the rest is history.
Oh, of course, there is that “one drop of blood rule,” so enamored of by you Democrats. But you see, we’re Republicans. We don’t hold by that crap.
For me, whether I harbor long term spite for teh young depends on whether we can fix the damn boat before it capsizes and sinks. Right now, they are the last in line. Further, I hope they have to work real jobs and very hard and then only make half what their parents made. Further, many of those hard working young people were or potentially will be working in industries which need to be destroyed.
The whole paradigm of what work really means has been skewed. A financial resetting and a much more limited budget for services, tech goods, “fair trade” crap, organics, and a whole host of other such will help reset things. As well, government jobs, from bureaucrats to teachers to even firefighters and police needs to be completely overhauled. Work cannot mean just being somewhere or doing work which actually undermines economic stability.
It is great that you have heart for the young ones. But if the thing can be salvaged, perhaps the humbling nature will do more to spare this from happening again than anything they could have simple learned by the age 35. If we cannot patch things together, those who choose to be slaves can be left to their lot. I save sympathy and empathy for those who are against it through no choice of their own. Age 12 is the time, after that… they are responsible.
Great catch on Simon, Occam’s Beard.
I am to the point that if anyone on the internet says, “You don’t like Obama because he’s black.” I laugh at them.
Occam is on fire !
Give the man a microphone !
Re Obama’s “blackness”:
I seem to recall that his father (assuming it was BHO Sr.) was half Arab. Since the African part of his family were never enslaved, there is a pretty good chance that he has more slave traders than slaves in his ancestry.
I don’t blame to fresh new voters. It’s the post middle agers who sent me spam e-mails about evil Sarah Palin with not a word of truth in them and others who were too busy to check out anything because they hated Bush that I blame. Also, when I dealt with some of these same WASPS who have lived abroad for 25 years and I asked them why they were voting for Obama, their first and about only comment was, “I want to cast my vote for the first African American President”, I knew that these folks were moronic. I love them and they were bright in other respects, but in that respect they were moronic.
Simon, people who are so obsessed with race that they “can’t help thinking” that skin color is the really important thing about Obama should not criticize others for racism. Looked around at your glass house lately?
Simon Says:
September 4th, 2010 at 11:50 pm
“Reading these comments I get the impression you think if McCain had gotten in, the economy would somehow be in better shape? I find that very hard to believe. As inspired the idea as “cutting pork” was, I doubt its effects would have been quite so transformational.”
McCain would not have tried to take over the entire health sector with a 2000 page bill that has spooked small business into not hiring. He would not have pushed a financial regulation bill that has burdened small business and banks with massive reporting and administrative costs. He would not have taken over the entire student loan business which employed thousands of people in the private sector. He would not have been a threat to the oil and gas industry. He would not favor a card check bill for unions. McCain would not have favored canceling the Bush tax cuts on high income earners who invest and create jobs.
Obama is an anti business Marxist who doesn’t understand business. He has managed to trigger a capital strike by businesses, large and small. They are sitting on cash and not hiring because they don’t know what the rules are going to be six months from now.
Returning to the original topic of the thread, young people are catching it in the neck from all that hope and change.
I believe i became a conservative as a young man upon noticing the people who wanted to save the world mostly had parental issues they thought a world turned upside down would fix.
Occam’s Beard:
As a former Berserkeley resident, didn’t you remember Joe Stalin running for Berserkley City Council back in the day? Or was that Black Stalin? 🙂
Which reminds me of Gus Newport, former mayor of Bersekeley, when asked about Communist control of a Berkeley City Council event, replied “I have no problems with Communists; my problem is with Democrats and Republicans.’”
Everyone makes mistakes. The questions become: are you smart enough to learn from ones own mistakes, and are you smart enough to learn from other’s mistakes?
As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Sadly, sometimes what is sown is the wind.
What the young often lacks is understanding that actions have consequences beyond feelings. This experience should help most to a better understanding.
As for blame, I can’t find it in my heart to castigate them. I understand far better why and how a young person could have been fooled by Obama than an older one, who has no excuse.
I certainly have no problem blaming ANYONE who voted for the Indonesian Imbecile. Aside from all of the insanely un-American things he did and said during the election, just the fact that his biggest campaign rally was in Germany – in friggin’ GERMANY!!! – was more than enough for any actual American to know that such a person had no business in US government, at all. NONE.
I extend no slack to people who voted for an American politician who took his campaign to foreign countries. There is no excuse for anyone having seen that and still voting for the unbelievably un-American idiot – and that is even allowing for the outrageous stupidity that an American would have had to exhibit to have ignored all of the other glaring problems with the Indonesian Imbecile’s ridiculous campaign.
Everyone who voted for the Indonesian deserves to suffer, since they have foisted such a threat onto our nation, with absolutely no excuses to hide behind, at all.
I wrote Althouse and Noonan both asking what they were thinking. Althouse more than once. Noonan allowed the question to be shown in her comments section. Or rather, perhaps her employer did. Chirping crickets were their answers, at least for as long as I returned to see if they would answer my question. Noonan wrote speeches for Reagan? Will the real Peggy Noonan please stand up?
Sergey, I don’t remember the exact date, but it was September 1971 and I was walking through Sproul Plaza, approaching Sather Gate on the Berkeley campus, after having just navigated through the latest leftist kabuki-like demonstration, replete with the same tired rhetoric and signs, when it hit me with almost physical force: “this is a bunch of crap.”
Instantly the growing inner tension occasioned by the shifting of my intellectual tectonic plates was released, and I felt complete catharsis from this mother of all philosophical earthquakes. No longer did I have to expend great psychic energy trying to deny the increasing realization that my leftist politics as an undergraduate were fundamentally and intrinsically flawed. I’d been had, manipulated, played for a chump. But now the scales had fallen from my eyes.
Ironically, the seeds of my apostasy had been planted several years previously by Angela Davis, although of course unwittingly. Her frank private characterization of the various causes celebre as meaningless in themselves, but mere vehicles for agitation, and her clear predilection for totalitarian methods, struck a troubling, discordant chord that reverberated within me until my road-to-Damascus moment. So, thanks, Angela!
Gringo, I steered well clear of even learning about local politics in Berkeley, for several reasons. First, and foremost, there was no point in doing so, and I had work to do. Second, it would have been bad for the soul to experience that level of frustration for that long. Just putting up with day to day living in Berkeley was aggravating enough in itself without seeking out further sources of aggravation.
The only way an Obama was able to bamboozle the new voters is due to their lack of historical education when it comes to the evil aspects of demagoguery as well as not learning the positive power of Logic, both courses modern educators shun and ostracize. How does learning such things help one’s self-esteem?
Rhetoric will only get you so far, as Obama and his supportes are now finding out. Hope it’s not too late to reverse the damages being made to our political, economic and social arenas. We have a representative Republic so long as we can keep it. Time for our aristocratic so-called representatives to find out the Republic no longer needs them.
Leftist ideology is evil to the core. When an ideology exterminates 150 million people, interns, tortures and terrorizes hundreds of millions more, it is evil. No sympathy, no empathy, no concern for them is required. No sympathy for the devil.
As for whether McCain or Hillary would have been better, well no. Hussein unmasks the left which is a good thing. The American voter will get a chance in 2010 and 2012 to vote for an unconcealed leftist. If they choose left then they deserve the consequences. The rest of us don’t but that’s the way it works.
What the Republic really needs is to replace the Republican party with a truly American and conservative party.
If Republicans win big in 2010/2012 and don’t alter the political structure, the system; de-fund and de-power the left; break the unions, then nothing will have changed and the left will simply re-group for the next assault on the castle and sooner or later they will have their dictatorship of the proletariat. My prediction is that the Republicans will do nothing systemic because in their hearts they are dhimmis.
I knew that voting for Obama was a bad choice, but putting Palin inches from the Presidency would have been unforgivable.
Put forth better candidates.
You are an ass Nyom.
Obama is not inches from the presidency – he is the president – because of people like you.
nyo.
Putting Slow Joe Biden inches from the presidency was a good idea?
Oh, wait a minute…..
Nyo. Were you in Journolist?
No perspective.
You voted for the virus (tax increases)
You should have voted for the prescription (tax rate decreases)
You should apologize for existing
Bullseye.
Let’s examine the logic. Better to have the certainty of a total disaster as President rather than the possibility of a total disaster (if her detractors be correct) might become President.
Makes sense to me.
Ozyripus,
You’re welcome. Yes, Royalist would probably be a better term (FWIW, Guizot’s father was executed during the Terror when he was a child and he and his family spent time in exile as a result).
We do need to be careful appropriating terminology across time periods. My favorite example is Mussolini’s reference to fascism as ‘corporatist’, which most modern references misread as strictly business organizations, but actually in Mussolini’s time meant any hierarchical organization (trade union, political party, interest group, etc.).
If you go back in the records – Nyom was concerned about Palin’s “God” statements.
I’m concerned about every Obama statement.
It’s as if he is on the wrong side of ALL issues.
Is there any issue Obama has wisdom on? No.
But Nyom was quivering in his boots over some “God” statements.
Oh.
My.
God.
Oh .
my .
God .
Bullseye.
(if her detractors be correct)
The really funny part is that she’s been taking her detractors apart, piece by piece, ever since the end of the 2008 election. But, this is how stupid they are, just as their Indonesian Imbecile has kept picking fights with individuals, public companies, and conservative groups and getting destroyed by them each and every time.
The only things The Precedent has really been able to carry out effectively, unfortunately, are his main objectives: to do irreparable harm to our nation by denigrating and sabotaging our most fundamental processes and institutions along with breaking important taboos that served to keep our system stable, and to antagonize the American People (which is his favorite “task”). He’s lucky that neither of these goals requires any intelligence since chaos and mistrust are easy to foment and open to the dimmest of wits to pursue successfully, especially when using white guilt as a shield, and any idiot can antagonize someone by striking against their most cherished ideals, fundamental structures, and closest allies.
nyomythus: that argument is ludicrous.
But there is one thing on which we can agree: it would be a good thing to have better candidates. Of course, that’s nearly always the case—but in 2008 we had a person with common sense and guts but with little experience (Palin), a lying political hack (Biden), an elderly RINO (McCain), and a lying leftist con artist narcissist (Obama).
You voted for the worst two of the bunch.
yomuthus:
Put forth better candidates
Two years ago I compared the experience of then-Senator Obama with the experience of other Senators who became President. By the metric I chose, here is How Obama scored:
No Vice-President Experience
No Cabinet Experience
No House of Representatives Experience
No Governor Experience
No Military Officer Experience
Obama had no experience at all in the above categories. There were fifteen Presidents with US Senate experience. Only one scored a zero like Obama. That would be Warren Harding, nobody’s model of a great President.
At least Warren Harding had some executive experience in running a newspaper. The only “executive” experience Obama had was chairing the Annenberg challenge, which consisted in doling out research money that didn’t achieve its goal of improving the Chicago public schools. IOW, Obama was a failure at his previous “executive” experience.
By the above metric, Sarah Palin scored better than Obama. She had been successful as an executive in government. I saw no indication whatsoever that her religious beliefs impeded her performance as governor.
Put forth better candidates.
No, put forth voters who are able to think instead of running with their phobias.
I have never been a churchgoer, but contrary to nyomythus, I do not have a phobia towards those who belong to churches. Perhaps the difference is that I have had relatives who are churchgoers, and I have seen that attending church does not turn one into a bigoted stark raving mad fool. Not at all. Good people. We just don’t agree on religion.
I would suggest that nyomythus fisk some of the statements that Sarah Palin has made in the last 6-12 months regarding policy, and evaluate them, instead of giving into his church-phobia.
Good job Gringo.
But, Obama’s campaign budget was bigger than the city of Wasilla’s budget.
yawn…
Was there a PROPOSAL of Palin’s that we could adress here? Like the capital gains rate reduction for instance… Can we address that PROPOSAL or any other proposals?
Which proposal of Obama’s looked good? Taking 25% of oil company profits? Did that look good?
tapping fingers….
Baklava Says:
But, Obama’s campaign budget was bigger than the city of Wasilla’s budget.
And his campaign budget was criminal, you should add. He had the AVS intentionally turned off for credit card donations on his campaign web site (which several blogs and commenters spent a few days gaining actual experience with) so that anonymous donations could flow into his campaign. He should be impeached for just that. Then again, he should have been thrown out of the race for taking his campaign to Germany and Germans, who comprised the crowd for his biggest campaign rally of all.
Yep … the Indonesian Imbecile did a great job at managing his campaign …
After 4 years Obama still won’t have any Presidential or leadership experience. Any fool can bring a country harm and piss people off at warp speed.
http://bigjournalism.com/gloudon/2010/09/03/the-truth-about-that-dishonest-vanity-fair-palin-story-from-one-who-was-there/
It is weird to watch ordinary people’s perceptions of Sarah Palin evolve over time – by ordinary I mean typical d-bags who do nothing but absorb the normal media zeitgeist and don’t question the ruling class.
Their Palin perception went:
1) intrigue
2) slight disdain (she should run for PTA)
3) utter and complete contempt (she’s the devil)
Funny because she did not really do anything in between the first and last items, it was purely the media’s doing, based solely on Bristol’s behavior.
That is why I am not sure if I would be ok with a presidential run by her, because I have seen normal d-bags get lied to and believe it. They would think they are doing the country a favor by putting Zero back in office. Because heck, a lying destroyer is better than “white trash” right?
Incidentally, I am considered trash in my hometown based solely on address and father’s occupation. We need to have a trash uprising or something.
SteveH….There are those who have 20 years experience and there are those with 1 yr experience 20 times.
Of course, no matter how long you’ve held a position, if you’ve been doing it wrong and not learned anything, you have no experience of value to the position.
That the young must suffer for being victims of a Progressive education is unfortunate. It is hoped the school of hard knocks will knock some sense into them. It is good for that as those who deny reality generally don’t survive. I guess it depends on how many of the parents are able to conceal reality from them by letting them back into the womb.
Thinking about it, we should also not fault them Obama. He or someone like him had to run a failure at some point. The longer the Dems were out of power, the more they were able to sell the BS they peddle. Clinton actually did the Left a favor by being Slick Willie and swerving to the middle when the train headed his way on the Left. The important thing is that the Progressives’ failure be open, apparent and widely known. That’ll keep them down for another decade or so. The sad part is, some on the Right had started to believe the BS but Obama is smoking them out as well.
Anna, I’d agree with your assessments about people’s reactions to Palin. There are people I work with who suffer from severe Palin Derangement Syndrome. If I asked them why they felt as they do about her, I’m pretty sure they’d be so infuriated about having to think through or explain the reasons behind their hatred of her that it would be an ugly scene, to say the least.
I know a very intelligent Dem who dislikes Palin. When I asked her why, she said because she ‘wraps herself in the flag’ and that she tries to pretend she’s a perfect Mom.
Whoo boy… how does one even begin against that thinking? I think she’s into the Palin-hate, but is trying to justify it to herself. Love my friend, but how absolutely lame.
Disliking someone without a persona reason is disliking someone because your told to. and people wonder how totalitarianism works.
Mr Occam, please.
“And by the way, “Simon,” tell all your fellow Brit twats that their choice vis a vis the Muslims is simple: prevail, or perish.
We won’t let you losers into our country. Britain or British Islam delenda est. Your call which. We don’t care. And we won’t be bailing you out this time. You’re on your own.”
The thing I find most troubling about this is the thing that troubles me about everything on here. The certainty you have that you are right.
I have deep concerns about the spread of Islam. I don’t like religion and I especially don’t like the Islamic religion, but I do not know that our choice is “prevail or perish.” I rather imagine the reality is more nuanced than that. I do know there are moderate Muslims who do not want the return of the caliphate. And by I know this, I mean, I know actual Muslims who have said this. But at the same time, theirs is a rather un-evolved religion and I think we need to be very vigilant.
On the economy you have absolute certainty that government intervention is bad and free markets will take care of our problems. I do not know where this certainty comes from. To me the most important aspect of a modern civilized society is a strong middle-class. Unchecked free markets seem to me to be destroying the middle class and creating an ever larger underclass, and ever wealthier super-rich class. This is not the kind of world I want to live in. I know trusting government to redistribute wealth has its risks. But we have a democracy and if the government overreaches then it can be voted out. In the UK people thought Labour were too nannyish, now they are gone. There was no decent into totalitarianism.
I don’t know that you are wrong. That total laissez faire capitalism isn’t a good idea. I just know that trying it out would be an insanely irresponsible thing to. Something a deranged anarchist might think up. Does this not make me quite conservative? In a sense.
Simon: one of the many problems with Islam is that, because of the recommendation of strategic lying known as taqiya, it’s hard to trust what is being said (even by moderate Muslims, whom I believe exist, and some of whom are sincere).
Also, I don’t think that most of the people here show certainty that what they are proposing will correct the economic ship. Nor is complete laissez faire capitalism being advocated (most would certainly favor child labor laws and that sort of thing). You are creating a straw man when you talk about that.
But we do know what has not worked; the evidence is there. Over-regulation of the economy by government is, to coin a phrase, bankrupt. And your notion that if there’s too much government interference the people can always reverse course is naive at best, and foolish. I suppose it was even true of the Soviets, but look at how long it took, and how much persistent damage was done to the country! Look at once-proud Britain itself, for that matter—the damage is very difficult to reverse once it becomes entrenched (including the damage to individual initiative on the personal level when the expectation of government help continues as a cultural given). And look at Venezuela right now—ask the people there how easy it is to reverse Chavez and his policies in that “democracy” (at one time I wouldn’t have needed the scare quotes around the word, but Chavez has managed to pervert the voting process in Venezuela so much that it is now necessary to do so).
And please read The Road to Serfdom to get a clue, if you’re interested in understanding where most people here are coming from.
Oy, me and me mates went down to the local for a pint after watching a bit of footie on the telly, the way we Yanks are wont to do. While I was playing draughts with Ian, one of the lads standing by said, “Why do those right-wing wankers hate Obama?,” to which I said, “They hated him ever since he stood for President, because he’s Afro-Caribbean or something.” To which Malcolm said, “What a bunch of berks! Don’t they know that all of us true Yanks value our diversity here in America, which is where we live, because we’re Yanks?” I replied, “Right you are, boyo. Good thing we all voted for Obama, what with our being Yanks and all, voting in a Yank election, because we’re Yanks and live in America, where Yanks live, and that’s why we can vote here.” Then the publican called time, and asked whether we had homes to go to, so we buggered off.
Oy, look at the time! Must pop to the shops before they close. But first, someone put on the kettle.
Cheers,
Simon (Yank through and through)
Then you’ve got nothing to worry about.
I know actual Germans who did not want the Nazis in power too.
What was this meretricious bullshit – now apparently dropped – of pretending to be an American who voted for Obama and talking about how “we” might have been better off with someone else?
Sorry, lad, but you lost your credibility with me in perpetuity. To put it in terms you will appreciate, “Sod off.”
Occam’s Beard: LOL (for your 1:52 PM comment).
I don’t actually recall when Simon said he was an American who’d voted for Obama. Do you remember what post it was on? For what it’s worth, it does appear that he is posting from a US location.
Neo, he didn’t say so explicitly, but unambiguously implied it here, by saying
1. “I am still glad I did [voted for Obama], I never expected miracles.”
Barry may accept campaign contributions from foreigners, but hasn’t extended the franchise to them. Yet.
2. “One thing I do often wonder is if we might have been better off with Hillary.”
Who’s this “we,” kemo sabe?
Whatever — put forth better candidates
Occam’s Beard: well, he certainly implied it then. But maybe he meant he supported Obama and is glad he did, and maybe by “we” he meant the world.
After all, Obama promoted himself heavily in Europe; even campaigned there. And Brits and Europe were in love with him. The idea was that he was a big world player of great sophistication and nuance, and that part of the change he would effect was a wonderful change in the attitude of the world towards us.
Neo, I truncated the quote. Read it in its entirety:
“Voted.” Not “supported.”
You’re kind-hearted, neo, but consonant with my nom de net, I plump for the simplest explanation: he wanted his views to be taken for those of an American.
Occam’s Beard: yes, now that I see the full quote, it is unequivocal. You are correct, he was certainly indicating he had voted for Obama.
Let me clear up the confusion. I became a citizen of the US in January of 2008 and did indeed vote for Obama. I am proud of my new American citizenship and happen to think, perhaps barring The UK, that this is the greatest country on the earth.
I will look into the book you recommended Neo.
…but with hard work, diligence, and galloping stupidity, we can fuck it up, and make it just like Europe, right? But then where will you flee, boy? And who will tackle the onerous, distasteful, dangerous, but necessary tasks that the Europeans and other limpwristed sissies have punted on (btw, “punting” is an American football expression— nothing to do with betting)? That’s among the long list of things you haven’t thought through. America is the last chance.
First, as was obvious to me that you are a Brit, but you, according to your account, just …recently..became an American citizen. That little nugget – which he have to take on faith, which in your case I don’t have in abundance, since your dishonesty is manifest – somehow escaped mention until I pointed it out. But if true, it explains why you’re not exercised about the Muslim problem: you’ll be watching it unfold on TV (the telly, to you).
Frankly (assuming there’s a scintilla of validity to your story), if I had the power, I’d have you deported forthwith. You’re not worth having as a citizen. We have our own disloyal citizens, but they were born here. They have that excuse. You chose, you went out of your way, to come here, and then were disloyal. That’s especially egregious.
But let that pass. If you thought the UK was so effing great, why did you not only come here — fair enough — but become a citizen? (I’ve spent many years overseas, but never gave a thought to becoming a citizen of another country.) And one of dubious loyalty at that? Was it just to get on the gravy train of public benefits, because foreign nationals aren’t eligible to do so? Or was it for economic opportunity? You might profitably reflect on why economic opportunity is/was greater here than in the UK or Europe. You voted with your feet/ funky ass on which was better.
I can anticpate your response: your wife, whoever he/she (best not to presume with leftists) might be, is an American citizen. But why live here, rather than in Britain? Hmm? And more to the point, why did you go for the whole burrito (that’s a Mexican/American dish, kinda like a Cornish pasty, if that helps) become an American citizen, into the bargain? Hmmmm? Because there’s more freedom here – at least until assholes like you work your magic.
Here’s the bottom line (an American expression, have one explain it to you): although you’re manifestly too stupid to grasp this, you came because America offers freedom. The freedom to succced. The freedom to fail. The freedom to do what you want. The freedom to get involved. The freedom to be left alone. The freedom to be an asshole (one that you’re currently exercising so vigorously). The freedom to live as you see fit. That’s what America is all about. So far, at least. Get on board. Or get out.
(I apologize for the extensive profanity, but this really gets my goat. No offense to Muslims’ love interests.)
Nyom,
Whatever – make better decisions with the ones that were on the ballot.
Prescription vs. virus
Idiot
War is coming to set things straight, as records and methods are best facilitated as such….
I think you’re correct, Occam’s beard. I think Simon is about as genuine a recent American citizen as a three dollar bill is genuine American currency. My sister just became a British citizen after living in England for 30 years. She still retains her American citizenship. She, however, having not lived in America for so long and never voting in American elections didn’t vote in 2008 either because she didn’t think that would be entirely ethical. So, some person claiming to be a recent American citizen and who probably isn’t irritates me too.
Yes, Occam’s Beard; The “pub story” was hysterical. Thanks
Bravo Occam, I very much enjoyed your rant. I was giggling to myself as I read it this morning. Never have I been so woefully assailed over my cornflakes. It seems my existence rather irks you. Unfortunately, I didn’t have the time to respond, as I had to rush off to work.
I am not sure why you think I am telling you lies about my becoming a citizen? I have actually mentioned it on here before, so it never occurred to me I would need to substantiate anything. A little presumptuous of me perhaps. I would give you documentation, but I know certificates of this nature don’t pass muster with you guys.
You were right, I am married to an American. A lady American. (Though my debauched brother-in-law does have himself a European man-spouse). I also have a son and he is an American citizen. I became a citizen for a few reasons. If you leave the states for an extended period and come back you have to go through the whole green card business again, which was incredibly irritating. I didn’t fancy that. I also like it here, I feel like I have found a real home here and want to be a fully paid-up member of society. That being said, if I’d had to give up my British citizenship I would not have become a citizen. The residency would have sufficed.
I am very interested in learning what it is that animates you guys on here. I am already up to chapter 5 of The Road to Serfdom. I downloaded a PDF onto my iPad. I have to say, I am rather enjoying it. Though I also enjoyed all of Ayn Rand’s books and the themes seem very similar. I found the clarity and rationalism of her works rather refreshing after all the post-modernist nonsense I “learned” at University.
Reading books like these gets me even more confused about Republicans. If these are the ideologies animating the right, what is it with all the deranged global warming denial, anti-evolution, anti-abortion extremism and religious fervor? Highly irrational stands all, and the main culprits animating hatred towards the right. If all I heard from Republicans were measured cautions about giving away individual freedoms, I would not find them at all bothersome. I would applaud their efforts as noble and worthy. It is all the hysterical anti-science, anti-rational hate-filled invective that turns my stomach. Your hatred here, Occam, I find quite refreshing, laced as it is with good-humor, but the nonsense your party utters. My god, it’s enough to turn one to drink. Or send one back to Blighty.
Simon,
Among other things the AGW denial is because the science behind AGW is fraudulent. See, if you haven’t already and hope we haven’t, the CRU’s CLimategate. Factor in the Medieval Warm Period–what was so bad about that? Was it SUVs that caused it?
The IPCC has been busted.
Anti-evolution is not a republican plank.
Abortion is an issue based on the belief that the unborn are either fully-protected persons, or not. You can choose one or the other, but your choice is not going to be based on any science, rational or not.
“hate-filled”? You ever hear of BDS?
Is Obama being accused of anything for which there is no evidence?
“anti-science” means disagreeing with whatever scientific nonsense which would allow for more state intrusion (cap and trade, ex.)
You need to do more homework.
Simon dice:
1) Anti-science.
Were you perhaps referring to Interior Secretary Salazar who, in setting a six-month moratorium on offshore drilling, did not follow the recommendations of the experts who were opposed to such a moratorium? Moreover, Interior Secretary Salazar misrepresented the views of the experts by claiming that they agreed with him on the moratorium.
2) Anti-rational.
The six-month moratorium on offshore drilling is a good example of that. A six-month moratorium on BP might have been a good idea, as BP violated standard operating procedures for safe drilling practices left and right on the Macondo well. As a former engineer in drilling engineering services, I was appalled at what BP did on that well. What happened on the Macondo well was not a case of “We did everything right and Sh#$& happened,” it was a case of “We cut corners left and right and paid the price.” Other companies drilling offshore are a lot less cavalier than BP. They always keep in mind the old oilfield saw: “Never cut costs downhole.”
3)Hate-filled
I suggest you peruse these links on what President Bush endured.
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=621 Death Threats
http://www.zombietime.com/zomblog/?p=612 BushHitler
http://www.deathofapresident.com/ Death of a President. “Winner of the International Critics’ Prize at the Toronto Film Festival.”
I am not denying that you can find the hysterical anti-science, anti-rational hate-filled invective on my side of the aisle. My point is that you are rather blind not to think that what you see in my side is also in your side. In spades.
I have forgotten more math and science than Al Gore ever learned, so I will be damned if I will consider Mr. Humongous Mansion as an authority. He’s just another Elmer Gantry. If you consider that deranged on my part, so be it. If you consider it deranged to be skeptical about doctored data, refusing to turn over data, among other issues which have made me rather skeptical about AGW, then your definition of “deranged” is rather interesting.
If you are REALLY interested in finding out what makes us tick, instead of coming across as the run of the mill smug, condescending self-righteous lib, I suggest that you read the link at the top of Neo’s page: “A mind is a difficult thing to change.” Neo, and many who read and comment here, myself included, were once liberal Democrats, perhaps even radicals or Commies back in the day.
Nice hit, Gringo.
But, as you say, it’s only “many” whose minds were changed.
I, on the other hand, was such an unreconstructed, knuckle-dragging Neanderthal to have been on this side since I can remember.
That means I lack something I want to get from this site. That is, what was it about being on the other side that got you there and kept you there for so long? Pervasive indoctrination? Not wanting to be one of the sister-marrying, snake-handling rednecks?
Resentment that those were the folks carrying the load in war and law enforcement and dirty work in general? That you were unable to face?
By the way, you ought to read, Simon, Peggy Noonan’s just post-9-11 column, “Welcome Back, Duke”. Keep the comma in while searching.
Got to give her some cover. Sillyvillians don’t know that John Wayne is a figure of fun in the military. She, of course, had no idea.
The rest of the piece is great.
But, as somebody said, she picked herself up and hurried on as if hothing had happened.
Point is, what happens when you respect that kind of person on one, unconscious, level but are uncomfortably aware you are inadequate?
You’re a lib?
Simon dice
Simon, a point follows about a difference in religion between Europe and the US. Many people emigrated to the US from Europe so that they could practice their religion in freedom. I have ancestors who did, such as Quakers from England and Protestants who fled Germany for Holland before eventually settling in America. There were many in Europe who were indifferent to religion, but saw no harm in following the forms of obsesiance to the established religion of their area. Those who left Europe so they could practice their religion in America found it a violation of their conscience to go through the motions of a religion they did not believe in.
Over the centuries, this emigration resulted in religious dissidents self-selecting for America over Europe. Similarly, those who were indifferent to religion self-selected for remaining in Europe. Certainly, many Europeans who were indifferent to religion emigrated to America for economic betterment, but as religious dissidents left for America, the proportion of those who were indifferent to religion increased in Europe.
As a result, the populations of Europe and the US have different attitudes towards religion. The US has a greater proportion of those to whom religion is important. Europe has a greater proportion of those who are indifferent to religion.There is also a greater proportion of dissidents in the US.
I have never been a churchgoer, but I do not have the fear of churchgoers that is prevalent in Europe. I find it comical that you talk about deranged…religious fervor… among Christians in the US, but your view of Muslims in Europe, in your words, is “nuanced.” Nuance for Muslims but not for Christians. And I am not a churchgoer. Andate, pues.
Gringo,
Simon’s still afraid to leave the Kewl Kids.
By the way, having referred to “Welcome Back, Duke”, you may recall that neo’s professional friend, Robin of Berkeley, commented that,when there was trouble, lefty men were not only no help, they were a positive menace.
Richard Aubrey
That is part of it. Assistant Village Idiot, who often comments here, has had some good posts at his own blog on the belongingness issues of libs. AVI is another Post Liberal.
Richard Aubrey
Neo explained herself in her “A mind is a difficult thing to change.” Many on this blog have given explanations of
how they changed, such as the dear departed Fred from NH.
I was born into a liberal family. That had its good points. Without being directly told so by my parents, I knew that I should treat the Air Force brat, whose father I found out years later was a Tuskegee airman [the father didn’t toot his own horn], the same as I treated anyone else . Decades later the Air Force brat informed me I was one of three in our class who “treated me like a human being.” This in the so-called liberal North.
My Southwestern grandmother was agaisnt the Civil Rights Act. While I never brought up the issue, when she brought up the issue I expressed my disagreement with her.
While my parents were liberals and professionals, they were not dweebs. My father was a pretty good country carpenter, building cabinets et al in our house. Beautiful work. My mother could haul manure for her garden, and shoot and bury a skunk caught in a live trap. [I was only 9]. Professionals who had not rejected their roots. I also learned from them that skilled and unskilled workers merited the same respect as professionals.
This thread gives a cursory explanation for my change.
As the link points out, I was a Conscientious Objector [1-O] during the Vietnam War. My freshman year in college, I argued the case for being a C.O. in evening bull sessions in my dorm. Dropping out of college made being a C.O. a reality, not a theoretical possibility.
In looking back, I believe the main reason for my becoming a C.O. was the death of a friend in a gun accident with his older brother when I was in elementary school. At the time, I didn’t realize this was the reason. The reality hit me decades later. My pacifism was expressed as a horror of killing. I did not fear dying. I was ready to go to jail for my convictions. I feared killing, as I knew some of the consequences of killing: how the poor brother suffered over what he accidentally did to my friend, his younger brother. Two lives were ruined, not just one. [Though the older brother has been able to pick up the pieces and have a life. But did he spend time living through Hell? Yes.]
Fear of dying or cowardice had nothing to do with my becoming a C.O. While hitching through TX, I was given the choice of a fight or a haircut. I chose the fight, and the two beat me up bad enough that I had to go to the hospital for stitches.
Richard Aubrey, I think you owe me an apology.
Gringo.
You took the route to avoid killing. Others did not. If killing causes suffering–my father still talks about it, somewhat, in referring to his fighting in WW II–then others took the hit. You did not suffer the results of killing.
Hemingway’s “The Killers” refers, in the end, to buck fever. The Army works hard to overcome it. Yes, most guys can pull when necessary. But you want them to pull first.
The Army also has some kind of response for those distressed by killing.
So, you’re not a physical coward, afraid of dying. You were afraid of killing and the aftermath. Others did the killing and suffered the aftermath. Whichever it is, you benefited from their sacrifice. While avoiding it.
I had volunteered for Vietnam but got off orders when my brother was killed. Always bothered me I let my buddies go without me and that I didn’t/don’t carry the same burdens, while benefitting.
Point is, the guys who went took the burden you avoided.
Same as me.
Richard, I suggest you read my link, as your reply gives me the impression you have not. I make no assumptions about you, as you are a total stranger, and I would suggest you do the same for me.
Andate, pues.
Gringo.
What for? You explained your position on serving. I explained mine.
What’s left?
Do me the kindness of reading the link. Also do me the kindness of not assuming my mental states from 4 decades ago. I do not do the same for you.
Your mental state forty years ago was the subject of some exposition. No need to assume.
BTW. The status of CO was not a matter of having had a personal tragedy happen to somebody else.
You had to show you belonged to a recognized religion which thought war, however justified in whichever way, was immoral, or the participation in such was, in any event.
We had a couple of draftees get out on CO status, but it took some doing to line up the religious angle.
Some of the most revered medics were COs.
There was a special Basic for COs, back in the day. Marching, field sanitation, uniform regs, all the stuff but shooting. Most went to the Medical Service Corps.
Read the link. Please. Nothing you have written indicates that you have.
This is what I was talking about.
“Resentment that those were the folks carrying the load in war and law enforcement and dirty work in general? That you were unable to face?”
Someone named “Simon” is married to an American lady and “giggles over their corn flakes”?! Come on.. Then they go into a screed about RW Christians? Sounds like a troll. I’m through talking with them.
Gringo.
I was suggesting various reasons libs got lib and stayed lib, not pointing at you directly.
My kids are twins. They were particularly successful in their senior year in HS. Leadership positions, NHS, varsity MVP, county teen juror, student rep to the city council (small town).
Some of their classmates resented them. One trashed one of our cars because, according to her mother, the Aubrey kids had things so easy.
It’s one thing to resent the jocks at a Div I college. But the same happens at small schools without PE majors or athletic scholarships.
See the resentment against the Duke laxers, compared to a guy named Burch who actually did rape a Duke student.
Common.
When I was in college, the percentage of ectomorphic types on the campus left was more than noticeable. Mesomorphs not so much.
It happens.
Didn’t necessarily happen with you.
FenelonSpoke
If a troll is someone who does not agree with everything you say, then I suppose I am guilty. I can’t imagine you want this place to be nothing more than an echo chamber though.
And I did not “go into a screed about RW Christians.” I just pointed out the main things that put me off the Republican Party. I was brought up a Methodist, and whilst I am not a person of faith now, many who are near and dear to me are. It is the biblical literalism of some vocal elements of your party that I object to, not your average mild-mannered Christian.
Simon.
Object away. Free country and all that. But until said literalism makes it into a repub plank, you’re playing at look-at-superior-me esthetics.
Clearly.
Simon-
A troll is not a person who doesn’t agree with everything I say. I just happen to think that a person who is a new young voter which is what neo’s post was about usually doesn’t say that they are married to a “lady” (that’s a term that people generally above 40 use) nor does a man use the word “giggle”. I don’t think you are who you claim to be. Trolls go for the response Congratulations; You got one. After this I will not respond. I have plenty of condescending Democrat voters I can speak to on other sites. ;^)
I also agree with Richard that Biblical literalism is not part of the Republican platform.
The Republican party isn’t my party. I am a registered Democrat-still a registered Democrat because I haven’t bothered to become an Independent.. But what I learned about Obama and the corruption of the Democrat party as well as what I saw of the sexism and misogyny directed first towards Hillary Clinton (whom I didn’t support) and then more egregiously towards Palin so turned me off the Democrats that I may never vote for them again. After almost 30 years of voting Democrat I haven’t voted Democrat since the Presidential primaries of 2008.
I take it back; I know some gay guys who use the word giggle, but in that case you wouldn’t be married to a “lady” would you, although you might need to inform us that your BIL was married to a man. I don’t care who your BIL is married to. That’s sounds like another baiting tactic.
Baiting tactic? That email was a response to Occam’s Beard. Rather a good-natured response I thought, given the amount of insults and accusations he directed at me and my homeland.
I have not said anything about myself that is untrue. I am actually 35, and never claimed to be any other age. And I can assure you, where I come from, England, it is quite common to use the term giggle and not be gay.
And after having read over half of Hayek’s Road to Serfdom already, as recommended by Neo above, it sucks being called a troll. All I want from reading blogs like this is to understand more how the right thinks. Then maybe by the time the next election comes round, I won’t be so filled with hatred towards the Republicans, that I lose my ability for rational thought. Like I was in 2008.
Simon looks at the other side and observes hatred, although he doesn’t give any examples of the hatred he says he perceives.
Without giving examples of the “invective” he dislikes, Simon makes it clear that he doesn’t like what he observes.
Simon does not like the hatred he perceives on the other side. Not at all.
Then Simon slips and the hatred that he says he perceives on the other side turns out to be most likely projection of the hatred he himself admits he has of the other side.
Simon, you have zero credibility. You remind me of the stereotyped preacher sermonizing against lust and adultry who has a couple of floozies on the side. Since you are so against “deranged ..religious fervor”, I will take the opportunity to quote Matthew 7:3. I have never been a churchgoer, but I am not totally ignorant of the Bible, and the quote is here appropriate.
In the vernacular: pot, meet kettle.
I see why you didn’t bother to reply to my fisking of your “hysterical anti-science, anti-rational hate-filled invective” rant. [When you give no examples to justify your comment, it becomes a rant, IMHO.] (September 7th, 2010 at 7:28 pm) I had you dead to rights, and there was no reply you could make.
In the previous 30 hours there were two suggestions where you could go ON THIS BLOG for insight on how former libs ended up on the other side. Neoneocon herself included.[hint: top right]