Spencer Stone, French train hero, stabbed in Sacramento
Spencer Stone is in the hospital with stabbing injuries that have been described as “non-life-threatening.”
All three of the American friends who helped subdue the French train attacker are from the Sacramento area. Sacramento is a pretty rough town, crimewise. The stabbing is reported to have been unrelated to the French attack:
Stone, an Airman First Class with the U.S. Air Force, was out with friends when he was stabbed about 12:45 a.m. near 21st and K streets, Sacramento police said.
A fight in the street allegedly led to Stone being stabbed multiple times in the torso, prompting investigators to block off two blocks in the area, Sacramento police said…”alcohol is believe to be a factor,” police said.
Apparently a bar fight, or after-bar fight, although we’ve learned how often initial reports are inaccurate. We also don’t know what role Stone may have played in the fight; it’s even possible he was trying to stop it.
You don’t—and won’t—hear all that much about the danger of knives, will you? All of Stone’s recent injuries, both abroad and at home, have been the result of knives. In addition, in a strange sequence of events, Stone’s friend and fellow-hero Skarlatos had a near-brush with danger the other day:
Skarlatos returned last week to Roseburg, Oregon where he was living after a gunman opened fire on Skarlatos’ college, Umpqua Community College, killing nine before before the shooter turned the gun on himself.
Ever watched “Final Destination”, neo? Your post has me thinking about that film.
It’s obvious we badly need a candid dialogue on “commonsense” knife control.
All I’m asking is that we close the Knife Show Loophole.
And while we’re at it, is it unreasonable to ask that we do something as a society about these awful Assault Knives?
Going back to work now. I’ve run out of tired cliches.
“You don’t–and won’t–hear all that much about the danger of knives, will you?”
Within their range knives are just as lethal as a firearm. And that range is further than people think. If you’re within a few yards of an assailant with a knife you’re going to get cut even if you have a handgun. Sometimes fatally, and it won’t be much consolation to you when you’re dead if your assailant later dies of the gunshot wounds.
We don’t hear that much from the MSM about that in this country. But hand wringing about “knife violence” is all the rage in the UK, where they’ve effectively banned legal ownership of handguns. Their medical association has seriously proposed banning sales of all knives with sharp points. As if no one needs a kitchen knife or other type of knife with a sharp point. There are blade shapes without points (i.e. sheepsfoot blades), but there are blade shapes with points on them for a reason.
And then, you’d also have to ban grinders or even files, because it’s not that hard to form a tip on a piece of metal. Just ask any ex-con. Or for that matter any outdoorsman. Reshaping a $12 Old Hickory butcher knife into various bushcraft knives is a relatively popular hobby (along with sheath making), and you can find DIY videos by the dozens on the web.
Laws banning pint mugs made of glass have also been proposed in the UK, in order to prevent “pint mug violence.” It’s ridiculous.
Meanwhile, in Sweden, an Eritrean whose refugee claim was denied went to an Ikea store and either purchased or took from a display a kitchen knife and proceeded to stab two real Swedish citizens to death. According to what I read he didn’t just stab his victims to death; the word is he nearly decapitated them. Which is believable as government officials and the press routinely cover up the extent and nature of immigrant violent crime (a pathology that’s spreading to other countries as officialdom and the MSM hides the truth in order to deny “legitimacy” to “xenophobes; in other words, they don’t want to admit the critics have the truth on their side).
I don’t want to go off on a tangent about uncontrolled immigration by hostile, anti-western, unskilled millions from the third world. That belongs on another comment thread. The fact is knives are just as lethal as firearms, and in some ways superior to them. You don’t need to reload a knife, and knives never jam or otherwise malfunction. Even just a couple of inches of penetration is a lethal wound without prompt and skilled medical care. And of course a knife is a tool as well as a weapon, so they’re widely available. These are some of the reasons Muslim terrorists choose knives for their mass killings.
http://www.news.com.au/world/china-knife-attack-at-kunming-train-station-leaves-dozens-dead-and-at-least-130-injured/story-fndir2ev-1226842721660
Steve57:
Personally, I think we should burn all the spindles in the land.
There may be more to this than appears. According to the LA Times article linked by Drudge, an employee of the Badlands bar nearby the stabbing said that Stone and friends had been there about 45 minutes earlier. If he was seen leaving that particular bar there could be other reasons for the stabbing.
The Other Chuck:
I saw an article that indicated he was defending a friend, who was attacked. That seems plausible to me. Probably best, though, to wait for more information. My guess is the fight had no larger meaning and they didn’t know who Stone was.
I read that he came to the aid of a woman who was being harassed by one or more men. The account did not make it clear whether he was with the woman or simply observed the activity. This account says he was held down and stabbed repeatedly; and that there were as many as six involved.
Maybe, sooner or later we will learn the truth.
Fortunately, his father reports that his conditions is stable and he is expected to recover.
Neo, I would say that every city in California is a “rough area”. Actually, that may be true of parts of any city in the country, but California is “gang central”. If I may say so without offending too many people, volatility is exacerbated by the mix of ethnicities–and that in turn is heightened when alcohol enters the mix.
Steve57: I emphatically agree.
Among Second Amendment types, you will occasionally hear mention of the Tueller Test. Dennis Tueller was a policeman, in the 1980s I believe, who had testified in court, many times, that a person was justified in drawing and firing a gun at a potential assailant, even though several yards separated them. He was tired of this — so he started running experiments.
He knew that an average gun owner could draw a handgun from a holster, aim — say, at a target 7 yards away — and fire, with reasonable accuracy, all in 1.5 seconds. But he wanted to answer the question: how fast could an assailant with a knife, 7 yards away, get to you and slash?
Answer: the same 1.5 seconds.
In many, many repeated drills, this was proven. (Sometimes the person with the gun and the person with the knife start back-to-back; one fires at a target 7 yards away, the other runs with a knife at a target 7 yards away. There are many other ways to do this. But I once saw footage of a knife-wielding attacker, in a walking leg cast, cover the seven yards in two seconds! I saw other footage of a man, in under two seconds, run seven yards at a target, unsheath a concealed machete, and slash the target in half.
Do a youtube search for “tueller test”; you’ll see what I mean.
Tueller’s conclusion: if you face an assailant 7 yards away or closer, and you wait before he starts coming at you to draw a concealed firearm, you have a 50% chance — or more — that he’ll get to you first.
Daniel, I’m glad you mentioned the Tueller test. I was vaguely aware of it but I had forgotten what it was called.
I was also thinking of what a reasonably competent practitioner of the Filipino martial arts such as Escrima, Arnis, or Kali can do with a knife. If you’re aware of the legend of the .45, the 1911 was supposedly developed due demand stemming from the Spanish-American war and subsequent American occupation of the Philippines to stop the juramentados. These were Moro swordsman who would attack armed Christian police and soldiers with their blades, which traditionally weren’t much larger than a big knife or a contemporary US army bayonet. They were legendary for being able to kill multiple victims before they achieved “martyrdom.” They’d prepare for their attacks through prayer, binding their bodies tightly so they wouldn’t bleed out too quickly, and drugs. But while the .45 ACP was an improvement over the .38 Colt service revolver the truth is that the only really reliable way to stop a juramentado was with a shotgun or a .30-06 Springfield rifle. No handgun could really do the job reliably, especially as a screaming Moro warrior running amok tended to disturb one’s aim.
Neo:
Why not burn all the spindles, as long as we’re putting our faith in other fairy tales such as gun control?
Daniel in Brookline Says:
October 8th, 2015 at 4:31 pm
In Alaska, that’s known as the “sow bear test.”
Up there, 150 meters is too close.
&&&&
The Sacramento crass media is describing the assault as being “a six on one affair” — the authorities are looking for “two Asian males.”
Have they adopted the Britishism “Asian male” ?
Here abouts, “Asians” are about the rarest bar fighters to be found.
Even the term “Asian” is ODD.
Normally, the press does not hesitate to state whether a fellow is Korean, Japanese, Chinese, etc.
Oregon shooter Chris Harper-Mercer’s Islamic connections were important enough to mention. But now, evidence of a purchase he made online of the flag of the Islamic State (ISIS) has been found.
The left is allied with Islam …
Steve57:
If you recall, the spindle thing didn’t work, either.
Here abouts, “Asians” are about the rarest bar fighters to be found
Not in Sacramento which has a serious Asian/Hmong gang problem.
http://sacramento.cbslocal.com/2013/11/28/gang-members-stopped-by-cops-before-they-could-turn-hmong-new-year-violent/
A raging street war between two Hmong gangs has left three dead since Thanksgiving and spread hundreds of rounds of ammunition throughout Sacramento.
http://www.amren.com/news/2005/02/fullblown_war_b/
neo:
Real life rarely works out like fairy tales, yet policy makers persist in basing laws and regulations on them.
I’m reminded of the classic Groucho Marx quip about how he would never stoop so low as to join a club that would have him as a member.
I think the very desire to be elected or to be a
public employee union membergovernment worker should be disqualifying in and of itself.No doubt that’s the attraction of the insurgent candidates. Trump, and to a lesser extent Carson, don’t really need the job. By all appearances Carson never wanted the job.
Steve57 Says:
October 8th, 2015 at 1:45 pm
“You don’t–and won’t–hear all that much about the danger of knives, will you?”
Specially assault knives ….
We used the .30-40 Kraft against the Moros. And .38 long colt and later .45 colt revolves. The 1911 in .45 ACP came later as a result.
Oh, and the 30-40 Krag wasn’t all that effective either.
Also, a 1.5 sec draw and shoot is above average.
Dons:
The Spanish-American war in the Philippines ended in December 1899 when US forces replaced the last remaining Spanish garrison at Fort Pilar at Zamboanga on the island of Mindanao. Peacefully, as the Spaniards were more than happy to leave Bangsamoro, the land of the Moros.
Depending on the historian what followed was the Philippine-American war against Filipino nationalists in the north from 1899 to 1902, then the Moro Rebellion from 1903 to 1913. Or the 1899 to 1902 conflict in the north was phase one of the Philippine-American war, followed by phase two in the south. And some historians simply name the entire period in the south from 1899 to 1913 the Moro Rebellion or Moro-American war.
But for the first few years of that period there wasn’t much a war in the southern Philippines as the American army did not truly engage the Moros until they had defeated the Filipino nationals in the north. The US simply didn’t have the troops to spare. In fact, what is now known as the Bates treaty was in effect between the US and the Sultan of Sulu, the effective ruler of Bangsamoro, from 1899 to 1904 and there was no large scale conflict. Just sporadic, small scale clashes not unlike what many US army veterans had experienced during the Indian wars. But since the Bates treaty ceded governing authority to the Sultan of Sulu, promising not to interfere with his rule in Bangsamoro, in exchange for the sultan recognizing US sovereignty over the entire Philippine islands, the Sultan of Sulu had no incentive to join with the northern Filipino nationalists in their war against the US. He couldn’t exercise complete control over every Moro village or tribe, but by and large the Sultan of Sule abided by the treaty.
It wasn’t until 1904 that the US abrogated the treaty, claiming that the Sultan had failed to stop Moro resistance. Which was true, but sort of beside the point as the Bates treaty was really just designed to stall for time until the US had defeated the Philippine army in the north and built up sufficient forces to extend colonial administration over “Moroland” as the Americans called Bangsamoro.
So yes, the US army initially used the used the .30-40 Krag Jorgensen against the Moros. But only for a couple of years, from 1904 until mid 1906 when the Krag began to be replaced by the 1903 Springfield. The changeover was complete by mid 1907, and the conflict with the Moros lasted another six years until the Battle of Bud Bagsak in June 1913 which ended organized Moro resistance against US colonial authorities. By December 1913 the province was so tranquil the US replaced the military governor general, Black Jack Pershing, with a civilian governor.
So the vast majority of the time the US army was fighting the Moros, they were fighting them with Springfield as the issue rifle. Not with the Krag. And the Springfield was very effective against the Moro juramentados, although the shotgun was really the weapon of choice against the typical juramentado short range ambush.
http://www.morolandhistory.com/05.PG-Kris-vs-Krag/3.american_longarms.htm
“…It was not until mid-1906 that the Model 1903 Springfield, in .30-06 caliber began replacing the Krag in US Army regiments stationed in the Philippines; even though it had been officially designated as the standard military service rifle in 1903. Even then it took a year to complete the changeover. This excellent weapon…
…After 1907 the Philippine Scouts were re-equipped with the M1903 Springfield as well. The 51st and 52nd companies of all Moro Scouts used this weapon in the Battle of Bud Bagsak in June of 1913.
…Circumventing Army ordinance, General Leonard Wood [Note: Wood was designated military governor of the new Moro province from 1903 to 1906] used his Department funds to purchase Winchester 1873 12 gauge pump-action shotguns. Five-shot with smokeless powder, they were issued to non-commissioned officers and often used by men walking point.
…The shotguns proved invaluable in breaking up charges from ambush and each company carried two or three.”
The bottom line was that when US troops thought they were going to be confronted with a Juramentado, and they never actually knew when that might happen, they didn’t want any handgun. Not even the 1911, which has never been improved upon (yes, Glock owners, I’m talking to you). They wanted a Springfield or a shotgun.
And the 1911 was never actually a factor in the fighting. Given the lag times between the army or navy accepting a weapon and when the troops finally got their hands on one they weren’t actually armed with 1911s until the final battle of the Moro war in 1913.
Once is coincidence, twice is bad luck/cheating, and three times is enemy action.
Melee weapons are very interesting to me. Because it requires that you close the distance and that you apply muscle power to solve the issue at hand. Any kind of hesitation and your muscles will go weak, losing effectiveness.
Similar things can happen to a person with a firearm, but if the user can manage to get the sight on target, stabilize the shot, and pull the trigger without pulling the gun too, then the rest is done by chemicals and firepower, maybe the wind for good or bad.
So intent is a big thing in melee weapons. You have to really really want to get the enemy. Whereas with more long ranged, abstract ish, weapons like a drone pilot or a gun user, it’s less of an issue. A gun can still kill even if the user had no intent to kill, for example.
Whereas the power of a melee tool to kill when the user has no intent to kill is very very low. One only generally sees it happen when an attacker falls on his own knife, held in the target’s hands, and that’s more the result of incompetence than anything else. Intent was there kill the enemy, but competence in avoiding death wasn’t there.
But tools help people use violence more effectively. What if you don’t have a tool, other than your physical arms? Then it gets interesting.
Wait a minute, Steve57 — are you saying that the US occupied and pacified Muslim lands in eight years? That’s impossible! Everybody knows you can’t beat Muslims by military force, it has to be a battle of ideas, right?
The best way to spread ideas is to fanatically demonstrate the strength of them by killing the enemy and destroying their culture. That is its own testament to the strength of one’s “ideas”.
Everything else, such as democracy or talking, means nothing.
No handgun could really do the job reliably, especially as a screaming Moro warrior running amok tended to disturb one’s aim.
Depends on accuracy. A shot to the spinal cord or the base of the brain stem will circumvent the benefits of slow bleed through or drugs, as it disables the motor controls. If they are still moving around, it’ll be like a chicken with its head cut off.
By going for superior firepower, it seems to be a concession that they lacked the accuracy in combat as well as the H2H skills to hold the enemy back long enough to shoot them at certain places.
These were Moro swordsman who would attack armed Christian police and soldiers with their blades, which traditionally weren’t much larger than a big knife or a contemporary US army bayonet.
The West has been historically very deficient in H2H and melee training. Especially now.
The answer was always better logistics and more firepower, but that ends up being a crutch later on.
The .45 ACP would have been useful in a hip draw and shoot method, when paired with a melee sword or blocker in the other hand.
This would go back to the older European officer models of fighting and some civil war 1 methods.
Some of Black Jack Pershing’s better warriors and officers would have switched over to that method if they were good enough. I wonder how much of the legend behind the ACP was due to the warrior skills of those officers and leaders.
Richard Saunders said:
“Wait a minute, Steve57 – are you saying that the US occupied and pacified Muslim lands in eight years? That’s impossible! Everybody knows you can’t beat Muslims by military force, it has to be a battle of ideas, right?”
Teddy Roosevelt and his generals such as Black Jack Pershing weren’t as sophisticated, hadn’t been editor of the Harvard Law Review, and didn’t have the community organizing experience that our current “professorial,” super intellectual wonder President has under his belt.
So they weren’t smart enough to know they were in an unwinnable quagmire. The rubes.
Ymarsakar said:
“By going for superior firepower, it seems to be a concession that they lacked the accuracy in combat as well as the H2H skills to hold the enemy back long enough to shoot them at certain places.
…The West has been historically very deficient in H2H and melee training. Especially now.”
During the entire decade or so of the Moro Rebellion the US had 116 KIA, 500 troops died of disease, and 189 WIA. The Moros on the other hand had between 10,000 – 20,000 KIA. The US army, as well as the navy, still took saber, cutlass, and bayonet training very seriously back then. But whatever their deficiencies in hand to hand combat, looking at those lopsided figures I can only conclude we need more of those deficiencies whatever they are.
War makes warriors and soldiers better at their job, there is no contest on that. When there’s too long a peace, the military loses their purpose and becomes… well, what it is now actually.
the military loses their purpose and becomes… well, what it is now actually.
It’s worse that just losing their purpose. They’re in the process of losing their manhood. While there are still instances of deserved bravery and honor it’s not for lack of trying to destroy it by Obama and his leftist lackeys.
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