Parties committing suicide (case study: Labour?)
Britain’s Labour Party commits suicide by electing extremist Jeremy Corbyn to be its leader, according to Dan Hodges of The Telegraph. If what the paper says is true, Corbyn makes our own Bernie Sanders look like Hubert Humphrey.
I often think when people announce the death of a political party they are exaggerating. Political parties have a funny way of confounding that judgment. But this time it may be true, at least for a while:
Jeremy Corbyn’s opponents can’t begin to picture Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. Jeremy Corbyn’s own cheerleaders can’t begin to picture Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. Even Jeremy Corbyn can’t begin to picture Jeremy Corbyn as prime minister. How in God’s name are the voters supposed to picture it?
They aren’t, of course. The voters were the last people under consideration when Labour’s new army of £3 activists pumped out their fusillade of electronic ballots.
Labour has not just relinquished any prospect of being a party of government. It has just relinquished any prospect of being a party of opposition…
Something may still emerge from the ashes. But the Labour Party as we know it ”“ and as some people once loved it ”“ died today.
I don’t pretend to know a whole lot about British politics. But I know a single party system isn’t usually a good thing. What’s more, I also know that British politics has moved to the left and that even their Conservative Party there isn’t what we’d call “conservative” in the US.
I also know that this is the sort of thing many frustrated conservatives in this country would love to happen to our own Republican Party:
Political parties die because they want to die. None of this had to happen. Labour could have elected a solid but unremarkable interim leader. Yvette Cooper’s steel. Liz Kendall’s courage. Whatever it is that’s left of Andy Burnham after three months of remorseless self-abasement. They would not have enthused or energised anyone. But at least they would have kept the flame alive.
But that’s not what Labour Party members wanted. They wanted to see their party go out in a final blaze of uncompromising glory.
Sound familiar?
[NOTE: I want to clarify something. At the end of this post, I’m not necessarily talking about Trump supporters, although it fits some of them. Other Trump supporters, however, think that Trump can win (and perhaps will win) and they think he’d make a good president. I happen to differ with them, but they are not the ones I’m talking about here. Nor is the group I’m talking about here limited to Trump supporters. The group I’m referring to is what I’ve previously called the Cloward-Pivens of the right, or the apocalypse-seekers.
What’s more, the group I’m referring to doesn’t necessarily want to nominate a candidate who, like Corbyn in Britain, represents the most extreme and uncompromising version of their views. Sometimes they want to support a candidate they hate (the liberal Democrat), either by staying home during the election or actively voting for that person. This, they believe, will hasten the disaster and the recovery from it.]
Yes he really is that bad. Though in a sense Labour were in trouble whatever they did – getting wiped out by the Scottish nationalists in Scotland, one of their traditional bases because they were perceived as not left wing enough and losing in England by being seen as too left wing. Problem is the other three candidates were bland machine politicians and about as appealing as Lindsay Graham and Corbyn came across as, well, more-or-less human in comparison. Can imagine a Socialist Ben Carson?
Read this morning that Cameron blasted Corbyn and the Labour party with both barrels over their security positions. Good for Cameron.
I have had limited, and casual, experience with British society over a few decades as an employee of a very large British corporation. In my opinion it has been on a downward trajectory in so many ways for some time. One hopes that it will bottom out soon, and start to recover some semblance of its former grace.
I don’t like Trump, who is given to foolish and extreme statements in my opinion; but, neither he nor anyone I can think of on the American scene–including Sanders, although he comes close at times–is in the same class as Corbyn when it comes to looney proclamations.
I do hope that those among the American electorate who proclaim to be angry and fed-up Conservatives will not poison the well. I should think that over the past several years, everyone would have learned that as frustrating as “moderate” Republicans may be, they are not in the same class as doctrinaire Democrats.
For many Americans, a coup in which the military seizes control of the federal government is starting to seem like a refreshing alternative to the existing administration, according to a new poll.
Conducted by YouGov, a new survey has found that 29 percent of Americans could imagine a scenario where they would support a military takeover in the United States. A total of 41 percent could not imagine supporting such an event. And so while the coup-supporters are still decidedly in the minority, the fact that the option polls so highly is remarkable.
I find it strange and disgusting that “New Labour” should no longer be considered “ultra-left”.
May I remind that “New Labour” introduced most “thought-crime” laws, gave the grooming gangs a licence to “abuse” (if prostituting children for years, basically turning them into slaves, can be covered by the word “abuse”) tens of thousands children, imposed its amorality/immorality on UK education and on (non-muslim) faith schools making a mockery of their belief, used its “anti”-racist laws to silence critics of islam but let muslim hate preachers peddle their wares, acted as a propaganda institute for islam (like that idiotic “1001 contributions of islam …”), opened the frontiers to acquire a new voting base (they even admitted it), and so on.
So Corbyn is “ultra-left”. I find that a good thing. It brings honesty to politics and it removes the excuse of not knowing, or pretending not to know, what a party like sick Labour stands for. Wish that the present tories had an equivalent candidate instead of that snake oil salesman Cameron. Wish to God that the political parties in Europe and in my own country (Belgium) had such candidates.
This, they believe, will hasten the disaster and the recovery from it.
I do hope that those among the American electorate who proclaim to be angry and fed-up Conservatives will not poison the well.
How is it that the wishing the disaster hasten is so discreditable a thing? We are constrained in aiding a dissolute man and leave it to him to hit rock bottom, first then, upon his own realization, he will seek to mend his ways. As far I can make out, the longer the disaster is put off the greater the disaster will be, the greater the disaster, the more it lends itself to extremists and their social theories and murderous rationalizations.
And poison the well? Every well you drink from you risk your soul and moral health. Drink from the churches on down to the entertainment industry, and down to the associations – the Boy and Girl Scouts of America and you will retch if you had not yet acquired a taste for shit.
Put off the disaster too long and I’ll no longer be around to decontaminate the air. And I so do want to be around to help pick up the pieces.
Re: links to your previous posts; both very good as was the Barnett article. Being a pessimist, I understand the frustration and feelings of futility behind the “let it burn” sentiment. However, I’ve never understood the reasoning that it will lead to better things. I just see more people demanding help from the government.
I don’t seek the apocalypse or think good things will happen following it. But, I also don’t think we are looking at an apocalypse, in the usual since. Death by a thousand cuts is more likely. Harder to recognize, harder to defend against.
The one place where Cloward-Piven should be cited is in the Muslim, putatively Syrian, invasion of Western Europe.
For a real carnival of horrors, reread some of those comments from 2012 Cloward-Piven article. All those foolish people who thought it was an ordinary election that could be thrown away. Would they change their minds if they could see what Obama has done, given a second term? As long as has at least 34 laptops in the Senate, he does whatever he wants …
Err … “34 lapdogs” in the Senate.
Sarah Hoyt calls it “Roll left and die”, it describes the final moments of corporations and other organization. I wonder what the Scottish Nationalists will do?
Kyndyll G:
I really like “laptops,” though.
So who is worse, Corbyn or “Red Ken”?
It appears that the Brits have forgotten the pre Thatcher days when The UK was the sick old man of Europe. The government ran trains, phones, TV and industry and very little worked out well.
Kyndyll G: “All those foolish people who thought it was an ordinary election that could be thrown away. Would they change their minds if they could see what Obama has done, given a second term?”
Neo recently posted about Claire McCaskill’s successful maneuvering to make Todd Akin her GOP opponent.
Similarly, what comments from “foolish people” were by Dem/Left operatives constructing a foil to replace their genuine opposition? Similarly, how many of “the Cloward-Pivens of the right, or the apocalypse-seekers” are Dem/Left operatives?
Discontent with the “establishment” GOP is understandable. However, I’m suspicious whenever calls to action from a presumptive conservative are conspicuously concentrated on battering the “establishment” GOP yet lack attention on the more pressing ‘Gramscian’ bases of Left influence.
David Cameron on Twitter, Sept. 13:
The Labour Party is now a threat to our national security, our economic security and your family’s security.
Attention, candidates for the Republican nomination — that’s how it’s done.
The U.S. and the U.K. both are nations of brats raised by 60s rejects who have no clue and hate their respective countries past present and future.
The oldest civic story in the world is the one about civilizations destroying themselves internally.
America did this with Obama. Britain did it so long ago that Labour is just trying to make it final. It is good if they disappear. It is like the Devil disappearing. They most definitely will not be missed any more than a serial killer will be missed.
On the other hand there are first the Jews who wandered in the desert 40 years. That generation was brats and wingers. The next generation was better. That could still happen in the U.S.
The one issue Trump has going for him is illegal immigration. With this he’s exposed a raw nerve in the body politic. On everything else, he’s nothing more than a warmed over Perot with shades of Pat Buchanan thrown in.
Trump will force a split in the party. If by some miracle he gets the nomination, moderates and otherwise sane people will bolt or stay home much like the Evangelicals did in 2012. If he loses, he will not go quietly. He’ll see the handwriting after the early primaries, and will force a nasty confrontation. That’s when he goes 3rd party.
He’s a demagogue. Wake up fools! This is very serious business.
The Other Chuck Says:
September 14th, 2015 at 10:49 pm
It is. I only wish we had an opposition party that understood that, rather than the utterly corrupt and collaborationist GOPe.
The Other Chuck:
Well, I know not what others may think, but as for me, I’ve thought Trump was serious business since the moment his polls started soaring.
It could go a lot of ways. But a lot of those ways are dangerous.
Mike:
You write:
“On the other hand there are first the Jews who wandered in the desert 40 years. That generation was brats and wingers. ”
What on earth are you talking about? Brats? As, in “spoiled brats”? (I confess I’m not sure what you mean by “wingers,” because none of the meanings with which I’m familiar fit.)
“Brat” really seems to not fit at all for a generation raised in slavery, subjected to plagues, and then wandering in a desert for many years. I was taught long ago that the reason they were made to wander in the desert for so long was that a generation reared in slavery could not deal with freedom, and a new generation reared in freedom had to come to maturity.
It could go a lot of ways.
Let’s try to summarize them.
1) Trump wins, and
a) has coattails and a mandate which he honors by keeping his word(s). The best Trump outcome. I personally do not disagree with any of his major points to date.
b) same as (a) but Trump reneges on multiple points; still better than (2), (3), or (4) below.
c) Trump wins but has no coattails and his promises are blocked by the Left. Go to Executive Orders; revoke Obama’s and issue new ones. Not bad…but follows the Obama model of tyranny. Cancels the Iraq deal, though. Renews Iranian sanctions by thundering about nukes. Can the Dems vote for nukes held by another?
Corollaries of (a) and (c) are that signif other candidates like Carly, Carson, Cruz, Walker join Cabinet.
2) Hillary wins: The US is done. Fini.
3) Sanders wins: US is dead.
4) Biden wins: same as 2 and 3.
Hillary, Sanders, Biden will all follow the Obama model. Why the hell not?
5) Carson or Carly or Cruz wins: That’s the big question. What will Trump do then? He will remain a formidable presence.
(cont.)
If Carly or Cruz win, that will be great. Carson, I dunno; I hope he’d be tough and mean enough.
What George Pal said.
Waidmann
I am so, so tired of Trump’s language already. Can you take five more years of it?
I’ll admit that it was fun at first watching Trump skewer establishment Republicans. But it is now very clear what he is doing. Demagogues need scapegoats. Trump has gathered them up into a nice mix:
1. Illegal as well as legal immigrants who are stealing our jobs.
2. Businesses who invest or outsource overseas who are stealing our jobs.
3. Foreign governments we have defended and the wars we have fought on their behalf who don’t pay their fair share and are stealing from us.
4. Politicians who are little more than lackeys for international corporations and foreign governments who are facilitating the stealing.
This man is playing the blame game, just like Chavez did in Venezuela, or Hitler, or Lenin, or any of the others who rose to power by finding scapegoats. Are Mexicans to become the new Jews? Will we round them up for the camps and send them off in cattle cars? It’s sickening.
Since May 1997 the British electorate have faced a choice between two almost identical political parties with almost identical sets of policies. Now we have a choice. However, things are not going to end here. The Labour party will split and, hopefully, so will the Tories. So we will end up with a left party, a centre left party, a centre right party and a right wing party.
There is one more possibility: Trump has swung a cleaver that could split the diamond of denial.
If he does only that, we will find a lot of people starting to rethink a lot of things. Like what happened to me and many others on September 12th, 2001.
And if he does only that, despite his brashness and quondam boorishness, he will nevertheless have done our nation a great favor.
Another “Party” committing suicide is perhaps Europe.
Ex-Czech president Vaclav Klaus has published another broadside, this time in a Czech newspaper-
Migrants may be the ‘glue’ of the new Europe
Ex-president Vé¡clav Klaus’ op-ed in MF DNES, September 11th, 2015, CZ:
Trivialization of the threats of migration by the deluded Europeists
Much like its pan-European counterpart, the Czech debate about the currently increasing mass (i.e. collective, not individual) migration wave — a debate based on the word “refugee”, instead of the word “migrant” or, even more precisely, “an economic migrant” — lacks trustworthiness, it’s misleading, and its excessive political correctness makes it suicidal.
The social sciences are telling us (in a rare consensus with the common sense) that a certain degree of the cultural (and civilizational) cohesion is absolutely vital to guarantee the functionality and stability of any human society….
This elementary insight is being totally ignored by the ongoing debate about migration. Led astray by the multiculturalist ideology, the European ideologues are informing us that nothing of the sort is needed; or that this situation may be easily and quickly achieved when the European population is “supplemented” by the migrants.
…
That’s why we shouldn’t be too surprised that the European politicians aren’t even outlining the plan to stop the ongoing migration wave….
The assumption — especially held by the German government propagandists led by Gauck and Merkel — that the tens of thousands of current young migrants will turn into motivated, intelligent, educated, immediately employable workers who will be replacing the aging inhabitants of Germany (and Europe) is preposterous. It also contradicts the whole historical experience. People are learning essential things when they’re very young and they usually do so in their family; the learning is much harder afterwards.
…
[These politicians] are doing a disservice to Europe.
I am afraid about the future of the European civilization. Nothing smaller is at stake.
MORE
http://motls.blogspot.com/2015/09/migrants-may-be-glue-of-new-europe.html
It appears that the Brits have forgotten the pre Thatcher days when The UK was the sick old man of Europe.
I suspect most Corbyn voters are too young to remember what British Leyland, British Rail and the National Coal Board were actually like. Unlike me, unfortunately!
Good morning, Neo,
You wrote last night of the Hebrews in Sinai:
If you consult the Old Testament, you will find that the forty-year wandering and the plagues of which you speak came about because, at a crucial moment, all but a few of them declined en masse to obey the Lord their God by advancing into Canaan to claim the land that He had promised them. In order to lay claim to it, they had to take on a great challenge with faith in His aid, and just then, they choked. The story is in Numbers 13-14.
The characterization of the bulk of the people of Israel at the time as ‘brats’ is well-founded. As the Lord Himself said by way of introducing this forty-year period:
(Num 14:20-24)
Perhaps there is something to the explanation of this story that you were given at the time, but from the source material, it becomes clear that it was not primarily a question of ‘freedom’ or ‘slavery’ in human terms, but of obedience to God or lack thereof. If, in your original statement, you read “alienation from the Lord” for “slavery” and “obedience to Him” for “freedom”, then I think you have something much closer to the true meaning.
I mention this because I think in all our talk about freedom, tyranny and suchlike, in this country and elsewhere, we often get our human understanding of these things confused with the meanings that the Lord gives them, at least as they pertain to us. Political regimes and cultural stupidities come and go, but with a divinely instructed perspective, these worldly things become more bearable.
Oldflyer :”I do hope that those among the American electorate who proclaim to be angry and fed-up Conservatives will not poison the well. I should think that over the past several years, everyone would have learned that as frustrating as “moderate” Republicans may be, they are not in the same class as doctrinaire Democrats.”
“Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result.”
I don’t necessarily like Trump and his narcissistic approach to life. Although in my opinion, I prefer his narcissism to the narcissistic “boy king” in the WH. I’ve had enough with holding my nose and voting for moderates because it is the “lesser of two evils”.
We the electorate didn’t like what we saw and gave the Establishment Repubicks the house in 2010. They told us, there was nothing they could do and they needed the Senate. In the meantime, these moderates failed to fight on any issues and took pains to punish those in the ranks that tried to act. We again gave them the Senate in 2014 and what changed?
Nothing, except for the Bloviating and Crying, Obummer got everything he wanted. Now their statement is- Just give us the White House and see what we can do.
A politician will always promise you what you want with the caveat that you will get it tomorrow. Tomorrow never comes.
With the Hard Left policies , the Bushes and the other moderate ” Republicans policies, fiscally we are running on fiscal fumes. And there may be a immovable brick wall that will create havoc no matter who is in the WH.
We sit back and are amazed that the African-American community keeps voting 90% Democratic when the Democratic policies do them so much harm both in and out of the womb.
Can not the same thing be said about the Conservatives and the Establishment Republicans? We are expected to vote the moderate line because it is the lesser of two evils.
Sorry, been down that path before. If the establishment republicks get their way, I’ll be sitting this election out.
You see for me, Trump is the lesser of two evils compared to the establishment republicks. I’m not sure what Trump will do but I am sure what the moderate republicans aka “establishment” will do based on past history. 🙁 🙁
I suspect that Corbyn will not be leader by the time of the next general election and if he is then the closest precedent is that of Michael Foot, a previous left wing Labour leader, who lost badly to Margret Thatcher.
However there is not an insignificant risk that he becomes PM. With the state of the world it is easy to see a crisis making Cameron unpopular and Corbyn is anti EU so he could attract the significant number of votes that went to UKIP this time. Coupled with winning back some of Scotland there is a definite path forward for Labour under Corbyn.
I’m not sure what Trump will do…
Then you don’t believe it when he says he will deport millions, and twist the arms of CEOs with threats and bullying?
Communists have always been out of touch with the people they want to take advantage of, speak for, and pretend to act on behalf of.
The idea that the Hebrews leaving Egypt were “brats” comes from so many Jewish commentators over the years that I can no longer remember them, individually . (Probably Dennis Prager has something pithy to say on the topic.) Remember how they whined about Moses “bringing them out into the desert to die”? God had it in hand, and manna and quail soon arrived. The story is about people who had grown accustomed to ‘slavery’, with the security that came with it. One reason we have these stories from the Bible is to show us ourselves, and, sure enough, there are people today who prefer the security of the chains. Also, we describe the Hebrews in Egypt as slaves, but that is not quite correct. They were farmers, who paid heavy taxes in labor for the government, and the Pharaoh had gradually increased those exactions, over time. The next generation, hardened by desert life, were the kick-ass fighting force who took the Promised Land. As always, the story has many layers, and is well worth re-reading, especially this week. Yes, it’s about Passover, not the new year, but it is always about God and His Providence, and we do well to remember it, again.
Michael Adama:
“Brat” is about the most inappropriate word I can think of.
“Hardened by desert life”? How about “hardened by slavery”? “Brats” means “a badly behaved spoiled child”—one who has been indulged, given too much, coddled.
The Hebrews in Egypt were always described as slaves, and whether they were farmers or workers or whatever their actual labor, it was hard labor with few or no privileges: hardship and suffering. “This is the bread of affliction…” Read the entire Passover service and it is about this, not about brats with privilege!
I’m sorry, but I don’t care who said that about “brats,” it’s actually one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard, whether it come from Jews or Prager or whoever it comes from.
Having a slave mentality, not thinking for yourselves, not being independent and self-reliant, that was their problem, not brat-dom. And yes, they complained, and some worshipped the Golden Calf, but it was not because they were brats, it was because they clung to their old safe ways and did not know how to be independent either in mind or action.
MikeII:
But you’ve got plenty of non-moderate presidential candidates to vote for besides Trump. Plenty.
Your argument would make some sense if it was just Trump vs. Bush, let’s say. It’s not even remotely that.
The “doing the same thing” would be voting for Trump, who of all the candidates most resembles Obama in temperament and experience at governing.
You’ve got plenty of alternatives that are not business as usual. You’re not taking them, because you’re pissed at Boehner and McConnell and people like them in Congress. But guess what? Boehner and McConnell are not running for president.
Chuck certainly believed the Left when the homo Leftists promised to leave regular marriage alone and only wanted their “equal rights” for homo marriage.
A drop in the bucket for the various marks of the con artists.
Speaking of single-party states, Australia just became one. A media blitz insisting PM Abbott would lose the next election to far-left candidate Bill Shorten made his party replace him with far-left MP Malcolm Turnbull.
First of all, the Cloward-Pivens strategy would never have been able to accomplish its stated goal of attaining a universal minimum income due an enormous and geometrically progressive inflationary pressure on wages.
Secondly, in referring to the apocalypse seekers just examine the proposition that electing an establishment Republican is measurably better than electing a Democrat or Socialist. The establishment Republicans may voice some level of support for important issues and outline differences between themselves and the opposition, but they have failed miserably at half-hearted attempts to influence policy. The current cadre of leaders aren’t.
They blame their failures on a lack of a super majority, or that it simply cannot be done. In any important disagreement of policy with the Administration they immediately surrender they’re most power weapon; the power of the purse. They have no idea on how to conduct asymmetrical political warfare, the refuse to stand on principles (as if they had any), and they believe that the nation cannot go on without their unique talent in the Senate or House. They attack other Republicans far more viciously than any Democrat, and go after their supporters as well.
If the US had briefly defaulted on its debt in 2011, I believe that most of the President’s agenda would have failed to be implemented. I am certain that we would have about 1.6 trillion dollars less debt. Yes, there would have been more short term economic hardship, but not the long term stagnation that we seem to be stuck in.
So for me the argument to “stay the course” with the leadership or party that we have doesn’t have any merit. I myself am not for an economic apocalypse, but without some drastic corrective action there is no way out.
Politically we are trapped like a marble oscillating in a bowl; first up one side, then down through the center and the up the other. This is cruel dynamic stability.
We need, at least for a brief time, to turn the bowl upside down and let the marble roll off into some other unknown and unknowable state.
Neo: “In the desert the whole community grumbled against Moses and Aaron.” They were afraid of entering the promised land as well. Not me, but God told them they could stay in the desert and die there if all they were going to do is complain and be afraid. That’s Exodus 16 as but one example. Their kids ended up being tougher and braver than they were.
Wingers is a British term. It may be spelled Whingers. Pronounced Win-Jerz
neo-neocon :”But you’ve got plenty of non-moderate presidential candidates to vote for besides Trump. Plenty.”
I’m not a full fledged trump supporter but I do like the idea that he is giving the Establishment Republicans the fits.
My preference would be
Cruz because he seems to have intelligence and a backbone and conservative principles. But I don’t know if the General Population would follow.
Walker and Carson are maybes. Why?
I give Walker points on his actions in WI but he seems wishy washy on immigration and taking a hard line on other topics.
Carson is a very “nice” person but I think the establishment republicans would roll him in a NY minute,
Carley is a maybe and we will see what she has to say.
So since it is 15 months till the election, I’ll see what each candidate says and form my opinion then.
If it is Bushy, I’ll be sitting it out but otherwise I will give Trump credit for stirring the pot and at least voicing some ideas that I embrace. I may be wrong in my views but at this point in time at least Trump gives the idea that he is a Pit bull rather than a lap dog 🙂
Read the entire Passover service and it is about this, not about brats with privilege!
I think the general gist is interesting even if the specific appellation of brat is not accurate. Because even the 2.0 Slaves of the Democrat South had house slaves who were living in relative comfort. People tend to be content with their lot in life, if they have someone worse off to look at and spit on. Which would be the field slaves and the slaves used to breed more stock and wealth out there in the shacks.
That bit about desert life toughening up a generation is also true. The Islamic Jihad back in Mohammed’s day used to send their children off to be raised by nannies in the desert.
I should think that over the past several years, everyone would have learned that as frustrating as “moderate” Republicans may be, they are not in the same class as doctrinaire Democrats.
perhaps not Old, but what difference does that make at this point?
Would it have saved the Afghans, Yazidi, Christians, and Iraqis?
Would it have saved the Americans from atoning for the sins of their past, when they allowed the Demoncrats to live and obtain more power?
What difference at this point, does it make Old.
I wonder how many of those three-pound voters in the Labour election were clever UKIP-ers who wanted to induce Labour to suicide so that UKIP would be the opposition. Rather along the lines of “Oh, yes, let’s vote Democratic in the primary to get Bernie the nomination!”.