Why Fiorina isn’t higher in the polls despite her obvious gifts, and Trump is
I asked that question yesterday, and I’ll try to answer it today.
I believe Carly Fiorina scores low because she’s not held elective office, and she lost the one election she entered. Even though she did well considering it was in bluer-than-blue California, she still lost.
Also, although she can explain her firing from Hewlett-Packard in a way that doesn’t reflect poorly on her (see this and this), the firing still doesn’t sound to the casual listener like a success story.
But far more importantly, Donald Trump””who naturally gains more publicity from his statements and his candidacy because he is flamboyant and somewhat outrageous””–has taken the spot Fiorina would otherwise occupy, that of “business-oriented political outsider.” He is far, far more well-known from his long self-promoting stint in the public eye, and he is therefore a magnet for the protest voters on the right. Supporting Trump is a twofer for anyone who’s angry at the establishment: he is not a GOP establishment member and he also gets the goat of those who are.
Trump (and the publicity in the MSM in reaction to him) has also managed to focus on illegal immigration, a topic that makes many Americans particularly furious and frustrated. That is probably the source of a great deal of his support, because he is one of the few people who are finally reflecting the feelings of much of America, when few on either side of the aisle seem ready to do so.
Is Trump sincere? I don’t happen to think so. I happen to think his main motive is narcissism and hearing the sweet sound of his own voice amplified and repeated. But others disagree, or they don’t care if he is or isn’t sincere. They like to hear him stick it to the Republicans who have played along with illegal immigration (as well as increases in legal immigration) all this time in order to placate their big business donors. Trump may be a big business guy himself, but he doesn’t depend on donors’ money in order to run and that gives him a certain amount of rhetorical freedom.
Trump is going up against Cruz and Rubio. Those two are very talented speakers and debaters. The others are well-coached and none of them are slouches. Trump will be attacked and I don’t think he will respond well.
It might be a blessing for Carly not to be in the top ten now. It is very early.
“Is Trump sincere? I don’t happen to think so. I happen to think his main motive is narcissism and hearing the sweet sound of his own voice amplified and repeated. ”
I think there might be an element of it not being sincere in a joke way. re: he is playing around for fun and the publicity… not all in a narcissistic ‘take me serious way or else’. Have to know him I guess to see what was going on… but ‘McCain’s not my kind of war hero; mine don’t get caught’ sure sounded like a joke joke…
you left out the genetic based bias to men as leaders… we are the same but we are not…
remember for thousands and thousands of years if you looked to weak people who could not beat the other person up but had to rely on servant men (cops) to enforce things, were not looked to as leaders.
and women hate women leaders… women themselves have a bias towards this more so than men do…
of course its a patriatchal conspiracy.. and we are not different… which is why nothing works out that way
I’m mixed on this phenomenon. The lady is bright, strong, and absolutely unshakeable on message. While she’s not a charismatic leader in the Reagan mold (indeed, who is?), she does have true, tested, leadership qualities. I wish she could find some traction.
I don’t come across this notion lightly. Now in my mid 50s, I’ve spent my career in the tech industry. HP was always an iconic brand to us because of the history. Watching the Compaq merger, especially during the upheaval of the dot com crash, was painful. It wasn’t until later that I learned about her chronic conflicts with their board of directors. In retrospect, I grew to respect her for the impossible position that she appeared to be in at that time.
That notwithstanding, I have to wonder that even if she did get traction, and were to go so far as to win a primary, that she’d incur an insurmountable obstacle in the general, that obstacle being the (necessary) firings at HP. I don’t believe the average center-left voter has any idea of the tug-of-war that a modern CEO must incur between the board, the shareholders, and the trust of employees. To them, there is no understanding that corporations must be competitive and accountable to shareholders; instead, they are perceived as just golden-egg-bearing geese, and CEOs fire people simply because they’re greedy and cruel. If she were to be nominated, she would have to overcome this bias, and I doubt it would be possible.
Still, a direct debate between her and the Hill would be wonderful to watch. I do hope we can see that happen somehow.
and when she was fired the left and world socialists decided to give her a shot at world bank
ie. she is a socialist communist who doesnt have the press on her side as she poses the opposite of what she is!!!
I am what i say not what i do, and that should be enough for you goes her song
so she says she is a conservative, but wants bigger government… she says she is the best representative of all the people, but she is a staunch feminist…
the list goes on to absurdity…
I think Carly Fiorina should be part of a future Republican cabinet, in the unlikely event there is one. Putting her, or any other conservative woman on the ticket, would be suicidal. That’s one of the things to be learned from The Sarah Palin debacle.
As for Donald Trump, I’m tempted to say that his narcissism is pretty sincere, but I think his sincerity, or lack thereof, is basically irrelevant. He reminds me of an episode of Battlestar Galactica where an alien in a bathtub warms that Starbuck is “The harbinger of doom. The herald of the apocalypse. They must not follow her.” For the GOP, Trump is the harbinger of doom. His presence is redundant proof that the GOP establishment has lost the confidence of its voters and probably can’t ever get it back. The Cylons were created by man. Trump was created by the GOP establishment, whether they are willing to admit it or not.
When the Republican debates begin, look for a Godlike alien intelligence in a bathtub up on stage.
Trump is a saboteur. He is a rino at best, an agent of the left at worse.
Fiorina is likeable, but there is no way to judge how conservative is her blood.
Bellarion: Putting her, or any other conservative woman on the ticket, would be suicidal. That’s one of the things to be learned from The Sarah Palin debacle.
If you define suicide as accepting as guaranteed the Left will mobilize all its minions to attack her, perhaps. I don’t. I see Carly can defend herself and show up the Left. As to how conservative she is, well, I am not knowing.
Steve Jobs got fired from Apple. Carly got fired from HP. I think she could do a good job of explaining that any tech company, especially the world’ first and largest, has setbacks and must adjust. That is why we buy computers from companies and not governments. Governments are bad at the adjusting part. Romney was terrible at making this point. Carly would be beautiful.
I am waiting for someone to ask The Donald how many busboys in his hotels have green cards.
It’s still very early, as Cornhead says above. There are usually surprises.
The Iowa caucus isn’t until February 1st, and that gives Carly Fiorina a lot of time to talk to a lot of Iowans. I don’t know anything about her organization, but if it’s good, then she has a chance to finish well.
Unless she blunders, I think she’d be a great asset as a vice presidential candidate. She’s a good speaker, and is both calm and pointed when attacking Hillary Clinton.
And however much I dislike gender politics, that’s how a lot of women will vote, so she could be critical to winning swing states like Ohio and Virginia.
I have to admit that this kind of early speculation is pretty futile, but — at least for me — it’s a symptom of hope. And I’m not a fan of either the Cubs or Don Quixote.
Trump is showing anyone interested in being President how to do it. Believe in yourself. State your ideas boldly. When someone attacks you, defend yourself aggressively. Don’t let the MSM scare you. Don’t cater to minorities except to tell them how you’re going to create conditions for jobs for them. Stay away from the social issues as much as possible.
IMO, Carly Fiorina is doing a good job of emulating Trump. She speaks boldly, she doesn’t back down when attacked, and she seems to have no fear of the MSM. Unlike Trump she uses more diplomacy in the way she deals with attacks and gotchas. Trump will attack someone with an ad hominem, whereas Carly will state some facts to support her position and put the attacker in his/her place without a personal attack.
My reservation about Trump is that he talks like he can make things happen and there would be no opposition, kinda like a dictator. Well, as the head of his company with no stockholders to answer to, he is kinda like a dictator. That would change if he became President. In a way he reminds me of the pResident we have now, just the more conservative side of the coin. Obama does not like dealing with Congress. I don’t think the Donald would either.
The mre one listens to Ms Fiorina, the more she wows you. As someone mentioned, the firing from HP can not be explained to the great unwashed. Same with losing an election to Barbara Boxer. Excellent reasons for these happenings but not in the minds of people whose attention span rarely exceeds 30 seconds.
Anyone who likes Carly MUST see her speech at the Reagan Library. Absolutely brilliant. Far surpasses anything the Donale could even think through. As far as Trump, why does noone talk about his bankruptcies?
When Trump speaks ,I hear H.Ross Perot
I have been watching Carly Fiorina closely and while I can see peoples points about her social Conservative bonafides coming into question. However, her ability to outline the problem and present it’s solution so clear and concise tells me she demonstrates a conservative approach in foreign policy and economics.
Maybe pressing her on social issues to flesh out her positions and see if she is able to demonstrate the same qualities she demonstrates on other issues will help us better.
At this time I think she can mop the floor with Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden, and I like her.
It’s true however that even if this run for president after being ousted from HP and losing an election seems puzzling or quixotic, this is perhaps the only way Fiorina could possibly get on the ticket as vp or end up in the cabinet later on.
Thus, I wager this has been her true goal all along — and not an unwise strategy to gain such an end.
I don’t know why she’s not catching on. Trump’s never held elective office either. He’s more well known.
I guess I favor an explanation keyed to that – she’s not well-known (never having held office doesn’t help, to be sure), AND the media is terrified of her (as others have suggested).
She’s not just good, she’s about as good as it is possible to be, presentation-wise. She “checks all the boxes” – whip-smart, articulate, takes absolutely no sh*t and yet manages to maintain an underlying geniality, and PLAYS OFFENSE.
That says to me that she gets it. If and when the thrill of Trump starts to go for people, Fiorina would be a natural landing spot. She preserves a good deal of what’s valid in the Trump phenomena and brings more substance into the bargain.
For now and for some time she’s been my candidate of choice. If she’s not given a chance at the debates … Well, let’s just make sure she is given a chance.
One more thought – I wound up very grudgingly in the Gingrich camp last election partly because I couldn’t stand Romney and partly because he was the closest thing to “getting it” I saw out there – one could say, being objective, that the Gingrich boomlet last time was a tremor forecasting a bigger earthquake (the Trump phenomenon). Fiorina gets it. And the only way for outsiders to crash the establishment party is to play the “gets it” card effectively.
Whatever the problem is, it isn’t her. It’s a combo of media uninterest and/or fear, Trump sucking up air, with a little dash of the inexperience factor as a cherry on top. In other words, I think that if she had proper exposure, her lack of experience wouldn’t matter.
Conservative tree house had a very interesting post about Trump I highly recommend reading as to a deeper look into the Trump allure. http://theconservativetreehouse.com/2015/07/30/nothing-unites-special-interests-like-a-common-enemy/#more-104322
I find myself unable to trust Trump. Like parker, I get the creeping suspicion that he’s a saboteur.
HP’s stock rose because the anti-Carly faction stopped selling their shares.
One of the biggest sellers was a blood descendent of the founders — and had a HUGE block of stock that was psychologically weighing on the market. (ie the sure knowledge that this fella wanted out caused all market makers to pull down their bids.)
Such a dynamic is the exact reverse of a company that’s received a take-over bid. Suddenly, market makers want to carry EXCESS stock (the shares) on their books. They’ve got at least one bigger fool that they can unload the shares onto IN BULK — and in seconds.
It really was / is that simple.
Carly was turfed out — very much like Thatcher.
Their personalities are very much the same — especially including their father-daughter relationship.
(Huge for both, of course.)
Her successor did not wait long to describe her legacy as essential to the survival of HP as a going concern!
MORE controversies erupted later.
It ultimately turned out to be that the Board of Directors was the real problem at HP.
Her attempts to kick some of the board members to the curb is the proximate reason for her departure.
So her successor kicked them to the curb.
Trump has hit a nerve that a large segment of the population is concerned about. Illegal immigration is a huge problem and the Obama Administration’s attempts to increase and legalize illegals disturbs a lot of Americans.
Everyone knows the southern border is no longer a border. That is what Obama wants. So Trump has focussed on that and has said some harsh words about Mexico. In my view, Mexico is exporting its poor and its criminals to the US and reaping the reward in repatriated funds. Trump is right to focus on Mexico.
Trump is telling us which GOP candidates are squishes on illegal immigration. So far, they are are all squishes, with Jeb (“Act of Love”) Bush leading the pack.
Illegal immigrants do have a path to citizenship. It is called “Go Home”. If they want to come back, go back to the land of their citizenship and join the line behind those trying to come to the US legally.
Democrats love illegal immigrants because they will vote Democrat based on motor-voter registrations, or just cheating. Democrats don’t care.
Chamber of Commerce bought Republicans love illegal immigrants because they provide cheap labor.
We may think Trump is a clown, but, if he keeps on doing what he is doing, he is changing the debate away from talking points to the people’s real concerns.
Trump can hold a big gun to the GOP’s head. If you select another squish on immigration, I’m going to run as a third party candidate. Heck, he might even win.
We only like Fiorina, Cruz, Trump and, maybe Walker. The rest are of no use or not going to make the cut.
The ticket (pun fully intended) for Fiorina is VP with Ted Cruz as Presidential candidate.
This queues up Fiorina for President in the future.
I don’t think Trump is sincere either. Nor is he articulate. If he somehow becomes the nominee I’ll vote for him and I’m glad he won’t need donors because the IRS has scared conservatives.
I have not paid much attention to Fiorina, largely because I would not expect that a personality which is able to rise through the ranks of the corporate world is the right personality to tackle the problems we face.
I don’t think Trump is manipulating the masses, I think they have manipulated him. Those ideas were out there, waiting for a champion. He has volunteered for that job because he wants the stage. I therefore don’t trust his ideological instincts.
His political instincts look pretty good, though.
Side note: liberals seem unable to not mention his hair. To me, that is further evidence that liberalism is a social-acceptability doctrine spread by social, not intellectual means. The other criticisms are post hoc rationalisations (see Jonathan Haidt). What really bothers them is that he gives off all the wrong cultural signals.
Name recognition, period.
Trump has been a celebrity for decades.
No one outside of people who really pay attention to the tech field or politics knows who Fiorina is.
I find it very interesting that many here like Carly, Cruz and Walker. All solid onservatives ready to challenge the status quo and get things done in DC.
Bush and Trump have no voting appeal to me at all. If either one of those two get the nomination, we lose.
The country and people in general favor the bolder, alpha approach to politics. While both Fiorina and Trump show a willingness to confront and back up their beliefs, Trump demonstrates the sort of aggressive and tough push-back-with-a-sneer that social con Republicans thirst for. Fiorina has seemingly done nothing since her time at HP. What accomplishments can she present that equal the TV wattage of Trump? I believe there is only one self-made female billionaire in the world (the rest inherited their money from their spouses or fathers); and so Trump is the best there is.
No one is impressed with a candidate with a lifetime of service in the political bureaucracy or working for someone else’s company. It’s why Obama’s and Kerry’s resumes were so unimpressive and why the critics were vindicated in critiquing their qualifications.
The mealy mouthed McConnells and tear-eyed Boehners are reflected in Jeb Bush with his troll wife
Santorum and Cruz are equally confrontational but they appear as creatures of the toxic machine, not self made men.
The dual defeats of Obamacare to an apparently flipflopping Republican Chief Justice; and the collapse of any resistance to the Gay lobby is breeding a new term for these people as sell outs – or ‘Cuckservatives’. An anti-Cuckservative is serving as a purgative and a self-made billionaire doing what should’ve been done years before: refusing the narrative of the Establishment is necessary and inevitable.
I’ve encountered the RINOs personally and they are a repellent, disgusting sub-species who are as impossible to reason with as any liberal. They seek power, not understanding like any liberal. They are what controls the Republican party today and so what hope does a person who holds faith to the old religion have anymore?
Trump is the latest lightning rod for this anti-Cuck drive and perhaps his presence will inspire greater militancy from GOP Cucks. Such a spine stiffening purge is long past due and scheduled.
Hong:
Carly’s resume after leaving Hewlett-Packard in 2005 includes this, this, this, and this. She also, during this same time, wrote a book (not sure if it was ghostwritten or not, however), had breast cancer and went through chemo in 2009, and ran for the Senate in 2010.
a self-made billionaire doing what should’ve been done years before
Are you talking about Trump that inherited his capital being self made now?
Hong:
Trump came from great wealth, Carly did not, although her family was comfortable. Fiorina is more “self-made” than Trump (at least at the start), if you care about that sort of thing, because she didn’t have great family wealth and she worked her way up from the bottom.
Trump had his ups and downs financially, coming near bankruptcy in the 80s but a multi-billionaire now. Fiorina and her husband have a net worth of 59 million dollars.
In other words, both are mega-wealthy, but Trump is MEGA mega wealthy.
So what? The advantage this converges on Trump is that in the campaign he can spend his own money and not have to worry about a thing in terms of pleasing his donors. But Fiorina doesn’t seem to be pulling her punches in the least, either.
I think you’re right, Neo, about his narcissism. But I also think his Nrcissism leads him to think he CAN save this nation….not for the sake of our nation though, but to give him one more narcissistic triumph to brag about.
Having said that though, I DO think his entering the race is just the hand grenade in the room we needed. It will be just the reinforcement that Ted Cruz, Walker and Firoina need as well as teaching Conservatives to chop the legs from under the Liberal Press, speak BOLDLY and without fear of hurting somebody’s feelings……like weak tea Mitt, chastising Ted Cruz for telling the TRUTH about Obama.
A successful business person, such as Trump or Fiorina, knows how to recruit good people and delegate responsibility. Obama only hires like-minded apparatchiks, listens only to them, and acts accordingly.