From Taya Kyle, wife of “American Sniper” Chris Kyle
Something she doesn’t regret:
Asked about the irony of [Chris’] death occurring at home after surviving such brutal odds in combat, Taya, who says she is still grappling with the “big hole” in her heart, replies, “What’s so interesting is that I was always such an over thinker anyway. I would worry about him all the time. Even eating so much bacon. And now I’m happy that he ate so much bacon.”
The popular “American Sniper” has been nominated for six Academy Awards, including Best Picture and Best Actor. It’s also one of the rare movies in which the actors playing the lead roles, although certainly attractive people, are not really any more attractive than their real-life counterparts:
“American Sniper” actors Bradley Cooper and Sienna Miller:
The real Kyles, in happier days:
[NOTE: I haven’t seen “American Sniper” yet, but I’ve heard very good things about it.]
Love and bacon – the two most powerful forces in the universe.
Great movie! Best part comes afterwards, though — because it says the Americans were the good guys and the enemy the bad guys, it sends the Left into foaming at the mouth fits of rage.
Ah yes, the movie that makes progs like Howard Dean’s head explode.
I plan to see it a second time next week just to do my part to pad the box office totals to further p*ss off liberals in hollywood. The first time I saw the film the theater was packed with patrons of a variety of ages. At the end of the film no one said a word beyond a whisper. Chris Kyle was a dedicated and superb warrior. RIP. My heart goes out to his family.
That is excellent, “Love & Bacon” and you might also add bullets, both good and bad along with and ‘Old Yeller’ type ending to bring a good strong man to start leaking little bits of tear. I am not ready to say we have an All American martyr in Kyle but we do have a hero and we mourn his death.
parker: good man!
Neo: I recommend the movie. It stands alone but at this point it would be good to see for yourself what people are talking about. Would like to know what you think about it, too. I don’t think it is a political movie, but it did make me think politicians should be more careful about what we ask of our soldiers. Especially in countries that are a lot more primitive than we thought and if it requires a mission that can’t be competed during your term in office. So the next guy doesn’t come in and piss it all away.
Hubby and I seldom go to flicks, like many here why feed the beast, but we will be seeing this & like parker says keep up the numbers.
IMO, it’s every American’s duty to see this movie. As Rush said yesterday, millions of people going to this movie (thereby insuring that this is Clint’s greatest success) is a reiteration of what the American people clearly said last November. Let us be heard.
When American Sniper was nominated for multiple Oscars, far more than Selma, the left was upset. When it completely owned Selma during MLK weekend it caused quite the social media ruckus. Actors and directors went on to tweeter to express their anger; social media platforms like tumblr were ablaze if you searched “American Sniper.”
@ carl: “IMO, it’s every American’s duty to see this movie.”
Be careful there. This is easily used against people who support the movie – this “duty,” this “”Murica!’ mockery that is being used by those who are not fond if AS.
It almost the same as those who wanted Selma to succeed at the box office, saying it was ones “duty” to see it because it was MLK weekend (when it was released) and because it was very much a part of our country’s history.
The “duty” card cuts both ways.
I also want to add a couple of narratives of those that do not want to support AS use, besides the “psychopath” as Bill Maher proclaimed and whether or not the Iraq War was an unjust war. The first, that Chris Kyle supposedly was a proven liar (lied about punching Jessie Venture, lied about book donations) and second, to further dig, that his company, Craft Internationals, borrowed money that it did not pay back.
There was barely any character assassination towards MLK when MLK weekend came along. But when AS went big at the box office? Articles upon articles about Chris Kyle. Harvey Milk when Milk opened in theaters? Barely any character assassination.
GRA- I hear you (as my mother-in-law used to say, God rest her soul), but in America money talks- $200M as of Monday. I could care less what the lefties try to mock; it’s time for some courage. I hope Clint grosses a billion dollars, so do your part! I’m no jingoist but I’ve had a belly full of BS from American Marxists. There is nothing wrong with supporting the idea that there we still have heroes in America.
The movie was superb. I gave my critique on it in an earlier thread. I’m now reading the book. I also recommend that as a deeper insight into the type of person who becomes a SEAL. Kyle was not exactly someone who would fit in in most areas of civilian life. The warrior mindset is quite different than the average person. Kyle was a warrior who was physically oriented, had a need to prove himself, was smart in a street smart sort of way, willing to work very hard, and had the ability to deny the reality of the danger he faced. I think it’s pretty typical of the sort of man who is attracted to the SEALs.
The SEALs are very well trained. To the extent that combat does not seem that much worse than the training. He managed to escape injury or death many, many times. Part of that was his training and skill. Part of it was luck. He remained convinced that he was the meanest dude in Iraq and it allowed him to accomplish some astounding things. The medals he received are a testament to those things. Kyle stood out because he was so gung ho even among a unit like a SEAL Team. While Kyle is the center of the movie, the movie speaks to the bravery of ALL who fight in this vicious war.
The sacrifices of his wife and family are well portrayed. Not enough people are cognizant of the worry and loneliness of those left behind. That’s another reason why this is a good movie for people who care about defending this country. Those who keep the home fires burning also serve.
Scott Walker for President 2016: Our American Revival
http://commoncts.blogspot.com/2015/01/scott-walker-for-president-2016-our.html
Kyle was the salt of the earth as is his widow. Tend the fires, till the earth, and stay cocked and locked. I have no patience or mercy for leftists. They threaten me and mine. I am at a stage of life where I just to tend my garden, preserve food, hunt for meat, and watch grandchildren (and perhaps great grandchildern) grow up independent and strong. My give a damn with the ‘progressive’ agenda is less than zero. F%#£ them and their agenda.
“And now I’m happy that he ate so much bacon.”
Wow, that just brings a tear to my eye. May she find peace and healing to that “big hole” in her heart.
The heck with those who bad mouth him – they just wish they were a fraction of the man that he was. And they know they never could be; that’s why they bad mouth him so.
First movie my husband and I have gone to since 2011…and only our 3rd since 2010. It was excellent, but speaking as a Mom who has a son serving as a Marine (in Afghanistan, w/the 5th fleet and now an MSG), I found it tough. I found myself thinking of Filkin’s book, The Forever War, and hence, very sad about all the sacrifices of our military (especially with regards to Fallujah) wasted by this rogue administration.
A little Kipling for the soul: a taste of ‘Tommy’
Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.
We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
There’s trouble in the wind, my boys, there’s trouble in the wind,
O it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.
You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
This movie, and The Passion of the Christ show that there are still huge numbers of Americans (as distinct from Leftists), and huge numbers of Christians (with a lot of overlap with the former) in America.
Which is, of course, why the Leftists react to both movies like vampires sighting a crucifix. Opposition enrages them.
But it’s great to see the big numbers turn out for a thoughtfully American movie with a genuine hero. Now, if we could just get our own Hollywood going….
Sharon W.: “I found myself thinking of Filkin’s book, The Forever War, and hence, very sad about all the sacrifices of our military (especially with regards to Fallujah) wasted by this rogue administration.”
Yes, it’s sad that Obama didn’t recognize the value of having U.S. influence in Iraq, the heart of the ME. However, that was just one engagement in the war with radical Islam.
As time passes, I’m beginning to take a new view of this conflict. I’m thinking this war against radical Islam is playing out much like the Cold War. It was called cold because we weren’t engaged in all out war against the USSR, China, and other bases of Communism. But we were involved in many different engagements in that 44 year conflict. Korea, Vietnam, and Grenada were outright military engagements. There were many conflicts in which we supplied arms and money. Greece, the Philippines, Charlie Wilson’s War in Afghanistan, and Nicaragua come to mind. In addition we formed alliances such as NATO and SEATO to stop the spread of Communism and to deter aggression by the biggies, the USSR and China. We engaged in economic warfare against the Communist powers, and, eventually, economics was what brought them down. During that entire time we always had a fifth column inside our country working against the effort to defeat Communism. In fact, they were insistent that Communism was no threat to the USA. We managed to muddle through in spite of the fifth column and some wrong-headed Presidents and Secretaries of State.
This conflict is proceeding a lot like the Cold War. We are muddling and things aren’t going so well. It’s hard for democracies to engage in protracted war. It’s one of our weaknesses. But we have strengths that can be brought to bear, when the citizen’s minds become focused on what needs to be done. I’m not happy with the way things are going, but I wasn’t happy most of the time during the Cold War either. IMO, we need to take the long view. Of course, if a leader appeared who would help us focus on the concept of, “We win, they lose,” it couldn’t hurt.
J.J. “But we have strengths that can be brought to bear, when the citizen’s minds become focused on what needs to be done.”
I like your optimism. From your keyboard to God’s ear.
Sharon W: I know what you mean. We have a son who did a combat tour with a cavalry unit in Afghanistan, and my wife’s first response after seeing American Sniper was “I’m glad I didn’t see that while Duncan (our son) was still deployed.” Thank God for the elite SEAL heros like Chris Kyle, but also for all of the others who serve as well. Please read Jake Tapper’s “The Outpost” which documents the heartbreaking and extraordinary heroism of ordinary soldiers when placed in nearly impossible situations.
I haven’t seen ‘American Sniper’. I will eventually, though likely not anytime soon. Probably when it’s out on DVD.
Now, I understand most people here want to focus on the honor and heroism of Kyle’s story and the American champions his character represents.
But I’ll point out that the discussions about the movie have opened a passing window of opportunity to set the record straight on the grounds for Operation Iraqi Freedom.
In addition to attacking Kyle and Eastwood personally per their Alinskyite SOP, many leftists have reacted by pointing out the Iraq War was unjust, criminal, based on lies, etc – you know the talking points.
It’s an opportunity. Their raising the issue opens the door to counter-attack the Left’s false narrative about OIF.
If you’ve ever been upset about the entrenched false narrative about the Vietnam War and the compounding harmful effect it’s had in our culture and politics, well, here’s an opportunity to make a dent in its successor, the false narrative about the Iraq War.
Most people on the Right will reflexively pull away from defending OIF and instead try to focus on Kyle’s service and sacrifice sans political context.
That’s understandable but ignores that the political context colors the cultural judgement of our military’s service and sacrifice. I believe to honor and celebrate Kyle and other Iraq veterans, correcting the narrative to set right the political context of their personal service and sacrifice makes a difference.
For example, our Korea and Vietnam veterans served as honorably and sacrificially as our WW2 veterans, yet they are not celebrated like WW2 veterans due to the difference in the degraded cultural narratives of their wars.
So, I suggest that when the false narrative about OIF is raised to attack Kyle and ‘American Sniper’, use the opportunity to correct the narrative about the Iraq War, like the Vietnam War narrative should have been corrected before it was cemented by Left activists as settled cultural truth.
@Eric
And what is the correct narrative as opposed to the defected narrative of OIF? You said it’s better the set the record straight, but you give no argument to counter.
the bacon reminds me of an old famous ann landers thing
ann put a militant feminist who moved the battle field into her home, bedroom, etc… in her place..
Don’t Confuse Genuine Love With Servitude
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1993-06-18/features/9306180071_1_dear-ann-landers-socks-soft-drink
first the militant feminist writing
such a lberal left feminist would be upset at kyles wife… her “taking care” of him and so on..
Dear ERA: There’s a big difference between “waiting on a husband” and doing some small thing out of genuine love for the guy. This has nothing to do with equal rights.
It has to do with caring. The next letter says it best:
and so.. she is happy that he ate the bacon… because if he had lived, stopping him would have helped him live longer and be with her. but since he didnt live, stopping him would have reduced the amount of happyness in his life before he died.
in a way the above letter explains why i dislike the feminists so much… they turned people who had such capacity to love and honor the person who swore to be with them all their lives and take care of them and die for them, into whiney complaining selfish harridens who could care less about what they were getting and care more about what they imagine they were not getting – doing great dishonor to a person whose only crime was that they loved them so much they wanted to support them so that they could spend the most time with them before they died (as men usually die younger and are older when married).
growing up i knew lots of rosies..
my mother was one, as was my grandmother, a woman who pined after my grandfather died… pined every day “why did he leave me alone and not take me with him”. we hope they are together in heaven, something which the left despises we hope for and feel better believing…
note: the woman i married is like rosie… she deserves a child, and a home… and i will die trying to give it to her despite the fact that this white male can never earn a raise or promotion for the rest of his life… and we are almost too old and so barren… she deserves it all…
why?
she really loves me…
MSNBC Reporter: ‘Racist’ Chris Kyle Went on ‘Killing Sprees’ in Iraq
http://freebeacon.com/culture/msnbc-reporter-racist-chris-kyle-went-on-killing-sprees-in-iraq/
not possible given our rules of engagement and how we now have to confirm with command before we shoot anyhthing.
but when ignorance is in play, like the blind leadin the blind the ignrorant can report anything that sounds good because ignorance relies on how it sounds, not on the facts. (even here those what dont know the facts make stuf up rather than look stuff up)
Mohyeldin’s attitude towards Kyle should come as no surprise given his history of biased reporting on the Middle East. Formerly at Qatar-based Al Jazeera, Mohyeldin consistently reported an anti-Israeli viewpoint during the 2014 conflict between Israel and Hamas. Examples included taping entire segments about the fighting without once mentioning Hamas, a designated terrorist group with the charter goal of killing Jews. Mohyeldin also falsely reported an Israeli drone attacked a United Nations facility that killed more than a dozen Gaza civilians, when in fact it was an Islamic Jihad rocket that had fallen short of its Israeli target.
I’ll add a +1 for the movie being one of the best war movies. Good story, great director and actors.
It’s well worth the time and money to go see it. Going to a theater is a cultural, political act that sticks it to the Marxist slime who generally populate Hollywood.
As for Kyle liking war, well good for him. General Patton loved war too, and helped win WWII. Good for him.
There clearly is problem though with the US political class and its inability to decisively win wars, at least since WW II. The left takes about one Presidential term to get spun up into an effective anti-war pro enemy force.
So for the future the military should come up with four year in, destroy, win, out plans. Otherwise future wars simply shouldn’t be supported. It just isn’t worth the death and mutilation of Americas military personnel.
Problem with the Cold War analogy is two-fold. We had an enemy whom we could pin down to the nearest millimeter in our targeting, and our enemy did not, officially, believe in, much less welcome the next life.
If somebody sets off a nuke in NYC, whom do we nuke in return [using the Cold War model]? Nobody, until after long and agonized arguing and probably not even then. So deterrence isn’t like the Cold War model.
artfldgr, “Racist’ Chris Kyle Went on ‘Killing Sprees’ in Iraq.”
I can see how that Muslim reporter got that impression. The book does show that Kyle had little regard for the Iraqis – even those that weren’t terrorists. No intellectual, Kyle judged what he saw by his experience in America. He was shaken to his core that there was a culture so poor and seemingly without redeeming values. I don’t think Kyle had done the necessary reflection and reading to come up with answers to why they are so different. He knew he hated the jihadis and had little use for the Iraqi Army “jundis,” who were being trained by our forces. The cultural gulf is wide and unless you have given a lot of thought to why those differences exist, it’ s pretty easy to just jump to the conclusion that they are inferior people. That does come out in Kyle’s book. But not so much in the movie. The movie, which was filmed in Morocco, certainly gives you a feel for the poverty, dust, heat, detritus, and corruption that is found in Iraq. It breaks your heart that there are people living like that and to know that they have scant hope of improving their lot in life. When you think about the fact that Iraq is one of the more advanced Muslim countries. it’s even more depressing.
We went there with the hope that we could establish a beachhead for liberal representative government in the Muslim world. Maybe with the commitment of 50,000 troops and 40 years of coaching, it might have happened. We’ll never know now. But the reasons for the war and the reasons why we left have nothing to do with Kyle. He was a sheepdog protecting his sheep. And doing it exceptionally well.
Richard Aubrey, “Problem with the Cold War analogy is two-fold. We had an enemy whom we could pin down to the nearest millimeter in our targeting, and our enemy did not, officially, believe in, much less welcome the next life.”
I’m not comparing the enemies. They are different in the ways you point out. The enemy this time is more complex and difficult to pin point. However, our strategy during the Cold War, was containment of Communism. A few long range thinkers saw that they were economically weak. Most people didn’t understand that because we kept getting all the propaganda about how strong they were.
We have concluded we can’t kill 1.5 billion Muslims. But we can contain them. When their oil runs out they will collapse economically. Thus far we have not touched their oil fields because the West is dependent on the oil, but that is changing. Without oil wealth the Muslims are just a bunch of rageaholics sitting in a desolate sand box. It may take us time to finally come around to understanding that they are economically vulnerable. At this time we are lead by a member of the fifth column who has no desire to win or any understanding of how to win. The same occurred during the Cold War. We are muddling and adrift as a result. We were the same during the Cold War. We have a fifth column within that will do anything to deter our war effort. They are the same people as during the Cold War but supplemented by Muslim infiltrators. Democracies are not good at protracted conflict. The Communists counted on that and radical Islam is counting on that. Maybe the analogy doesn’t work for you, but it does for me.
GRA: don’t hold your breath waiting for anything useful. Not trying to be evil because this is an open forum and people have the right to hold and express their own opinions ( at Neo’s discretion of course) – but it is my opinion that Eric, who I presume is well intentioned, is a bit of a Johnny One Note on the need for us to vaguely change society through Marxist style inspired activism
And here comes a chance to concretely send a message to Hollywood but Mr Activist is going to wait for the DVD to come out. Actually maybe it is me, most commenters here are either more polite than me or take him seriously. I find it tiresome.
Generally speaking.
Islam/Islamist: “Eff Amerikka!”
Liberalism/Liberal: “Eff the Conservatives! Eff the Christians! Eff the Right-Wingers!”
Many Folks: “Eff Islam. And eff the Libs. Chris Kyle and American Sniper are both great. Oorah!”
J.J.
We contained the USSR because they didn’t want to nuke us under various scenarios. It was possible for us to create those scenarios.
We cannot, I submit, do the same to the terrorists today. There is no deterrence.
The USSR was a mess; huge number of college educated people–and not in “studies”, world’s largest supply of standing timber and huge amounts of other resources such as various ores and coal. Massive hydro potential, more fertile farmland than Iowa and all the other midwestern states beginning with a vowel, and so forth. But they couldn’t organize it.
The terrs with the backing of Muslim nations don’t have to organize. As you point out, the latter sell the oil which doesn’t require a well-organized economy and there’s your money. Question is what happens before the west finds more oil and/or a substitute. And even then, the terrs don’t need that much money to do crazy stuff to us.
I was born in 1945 and will say the western left favoring the USSR were ankle-biters compared to the left we have now, not to mention the moderates. You could oppose the commies without being racist, chauvinistic, jinoistic, judgmental, and hateful. People weren’t forever hauling out the Polar Bear expedition or the Palmer Raids as justification for the Reds.
Besides, we won’t have the chance. See Fernandez’ Three Conjectures.
GRA, KLSmith,
Here.
Add:
GRA, good catch. Thanks for pointing it out. If you hadn’t done so, I likely wouldn’t have corrected the oversight, as KLSmith said.
I’m inclined to assume that Neo’s readers know the “correct narrative” of OIF.
That causes me to forget that the “defected narrative” of OIF is pervasive even among supporters and its insidious pervasiveness, like that of its daddy, the mainstreamed counter-cultural Vietnam War narrative, motivates my call to action in the first place.
War:
Beneath the horses hooves and curses of the men above them
The ground toils and frowns and makes redemption
For the great ladies gathered in their gowns
For the poor, the empty, and specially placed towns.
So I rose up and called solitaire
No longer the morning call, no voice there
So I rose up and called solitaire
When the mail stops, that’s when I’ll declare
Beat up mechanics rusting under an old dirt tree
Gots’ more motor oil and crap than sap under his skin
Under the hawk’s gold and greedy eye
The restless and the shiftless blame and die
So I rose up and called solitaire
No longer the morning call, no voice there
So I rose up and called solitaire
When the mail stops, that’s when I’ll declare
Who knows, Hobbs knows, the monkey went into space
Part of telly, part of a great big guess.
The space race saved no-one, only the human race
At the end of which a party so no-one be late
To rise up and call solitaire
No longer the mourning but joy is there
So I rose up, rose up, and rose up there
When the mail stops, that’s when I’ll declare
Richard Aubrey, “You could oppose the commies without being racist, chauvinistic, jingoistic, judgmental, and hateful. People weren’t forever hauling out the Polar Bear expedition or the Palmer Raids as justification for the Reds.”
Don’t know where you were in the 60s but I was in the Navy flying in Vietnam. After two tours of duty going up North, I spent 18 months as a Naval Air recruiter at colleges in California, Nevada, and Utah. We were verbally assaulted, spit on, had our literature burned, had our vehicles vandalized, and more. I was opposing Communism and was treated like an enemy of the people – even many of the college administrators wouldn’t defend us. I was called a killer, a chauvinist, and much worse. The vitriolic hatred woke me up to the Red Menace inside the country. Later, in the early 70s and beyond I saw Baltimore, Washington D.C., and Los Angeles on fire during race riots. We had a lot of bad stuff going on and a lot of it was fomented whenever possible by the Communists. We were under attack at home and menaced abroad by Communism. There were many times when I was sure it was all going to collapse, and I couldn’t understand why more people didn’t see how bad things were. Somehow we muddled through. When the Berlin Wall fell, it was an unreal scene that caught me completely by surprise. I never believed it would happen in my lifetime. There’s a lot more depth to our strength in this country than most of us realize. But I’m not saying that freedom doesn’t always need defending. It does and we all need to do our part wherever we can.
When Bush first decided to go on the offensive against Islamic terror, I knew little about Islam. I had known some Muslims and they were all non-threatening, even very nice people. I hoped that our efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq would be a beachhead for representative government in the Muslim world. In that hope I was greatly influenced by Thomas Barnett’s book, “THE PENTAGON’S NEW MAP.” Time, events, and deeper understanding of the religion (I now see it is a blueprint for an intolerant world theocracy if practiced in detail) have made me realize that we are never going to be able to co-exist with Islam as it exists today if they have any wealth. The only reason they are a threat to the West is oil. it has given them a weapon that they have been using since the 70s with the first oil embargo. Take away their source of money and they are going to be camel and goat herders because the religion is anti-science/progress in the extreme. The West needs their oil…….for now. The time is coming when even Saudi Arabia is going to be in the same boat as Venezuela – unable to support themselves on their oil income. We could hasten that time. But we won’t until we decide they are an existential threat. When will that be? I have no idea, but believe the day will come. Probably not in my lifetime though.
JJ,
I don’t group Afghanistan and Iraq together.
From the outset, I thought the likely ceiling we could achieve in Afghanistan was ‘clear and hold’ with a functional central government capable of fighting off the Taliban and its guests (eg, AQ) and corralling its outlying regions with NATO assistance and Pakistan doing its part across the way.
I suspect Bush and his team believed something similar given his particular budgeting for OEF, which matched a ‘clear and hold’ strategy with central government-building rather than a broad-based nation-building.
I couldn’t expect more from the ‘graveyard of empires’. Afghanistan was about neutralizing the proximate enemy, not building a liberal reform incubator.
Liberal reform incubation was for Iraq.
I believe Iraq was our grand strategic pivot for the War on Terror.
Winning Iraq should have been the cornerstone piece:
Iraq was the key. Iraq was also the key for the Qutbists. We knew that and our enemies knew that. They were not going to allow us to build an existential threat to them in their heartland without an all-out fight.
I agreed then and believe now with what Thomas Barnett said about the stakes and what we faced in Iraq:
Iraq was to be a clash of civilizations in pure form.
Where I differ with you is I continue to believe peace-building Iraq was doable. Hard and complicated, but doable. I think about Korea where we fought in rapid succession Imperial Japan, Soviet-sponsored north Korea, and Red China like some kind of 19th-century back-alley boxer taking on all comers, for the sake of a people who were very much not like us and we very much doubted would ever be like us.
Iraq was a contest. To be sure, Iraq held intrinsic challenges on the ground as well as extrinsic enemies. But it was doable for the same leader of the free world that had the guts of its best fighting force torn out by a massive Red Chinese ambush yet recovered and fought its way back to preserve the ROK. (Note that early 1950s US military in Korea was the post-WW2 drawdown military.)
Which is to say, if we have failed in Iraq, which it sure looks like we have at this point, I don’t blame the Iraqis for being constitutionally unfit for liberal reform.
I blame American weakness for a global competitor that is no longer fit to wear the mantle of leader of the free world, a mantle that we made from elemental pieces and fits no one else.
It’s trite to say, but the our chief shortfall in this contest is our will. To win this contest, we need to become a 21st-century version of 19th/early-20th-century ‘manifest destiny’ American chauvinists.
JJ,
The American cultural reserves that held the line in the 60s and 70s – how much of that is left?
J.J. : Thank you for your service from an old Air Force brat. My dad served a year at Tan Son Nhut. He was a 35+ yr old officer doing weather forecasting. So he was pretty safe, but he did come home about 30 pounds lighter.
Eric, “The American cultural reserves that held the line in the 60s and 70s — how much of that is left?”
I think it may be larger and more alert now than it was back in the day. I credit Foxnews and the blogosphere for that. I was reading Buckley’s National Review all through the 70s and 80s. It was pretty lonely until Reagan was elected and more people actually came on board the conservative train. When the USSR collapsed, people backslid. Bubba Clinton was the result.
I agree that Afghanistan was always less likely to actually leave the “Gap.” Iraq was as advanced as any Muslim country. If they could accept representative government and develop their oil potential, it was worth a shot. Had we stayed with 30-40,000 troops and planned to stay for 25 years or longer, it might have worked.
There were two things working against us. The first was the progs, who wanted to disengage at all costs coupled with the impatience of the citizens. To the LIVs it appeared we had stabilized the place. Why not let them govern themselves? Also, we had run into a major financial crisis that deflected everyone’s attention from Iraq and the jihadis.
The second was the undue influence of Iran on the Shiite dominated government. They elected a government, but it is a corrupt, tribal government. The Sunnis soon realized they were being left out in the cold. ISIS was the result. Had we had anyone in the State Department or DOD keeping an eye on the place we might have recognized what was happening and done something about it. But all eyes were on the Arab Spring – touted as democracy sweeping the Arab world. No one in State or DOD knew what to make of that either. If they did, their views were not accepted by Barack and Hillary.
I see people talking about going into a Muslim country, kicking their butts, and then getting the heck out. The problem with that is, it doesn’t work. As examples I give you Iraq, Libya, and soon – Afghanistan and Yemen.
What is to be done?
1. Openly challenge fundamentalist Islam as what it is – a blueprint for intolerant worldwide theocracy.
2. Build alliances with like minded nations to slow or end Muslim immigration.
3. Build alliances against Muslim aggression that includes intelligence sharing, aggressive military action when necessary, and economic cooperation.
4. Begin an all-out program to develop energy supplies in the non-Muslim world. This means all forms of energy – oil, natural gas, hydro, nuclear, and solar/wind if economic. The modern world floats on a sea of energy. We must work to make sure the boat doesn’t run aground without Islamist oil sources.
5. Use every means possible to deny money to terrorist groups.
6. Use every means possible (including covert ops) to put the fundamentalist imams on the front lines of the war. They are preaching their message of jihad in the comfort and safety of mosques. That has to change.
I’m sure there are other ideas that don’t rely on all out military aggression (killing many millions of people, which I have seen suggested on the blogosphere) to put the jihadis and their national backers (Iran, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, etc.) back in their sand boxes where they aren’t a danger.
Beyond that, I guess it’s the Three Conjectures.
KlSmith, Thanks for your thanks. These days I tell people that it was my honor to serve.
Your Dad was an important part of it all. Pilots need weather forecasters. The trigger pullers and pilots are helpless without those who back them up. Beans and bullets, av-gas and spare parts, weather forecasters and parachute packers – all a part of the effort.
I went to see it the other day, and now that I’ve heard the Obama network crying and disgraced UDT Ventura still going after widows and children, I’ll be heading back to the cinema. The success of the film heartens me. I’m still suspicious of the guys death. Too many coincidences of late, too many bad apples too close.
JJ,
Korea. It’s not like we’re new at this. The needs of the Iraq mission at the point we left are the leader of the free world stuff we’ve been doing as a matter of course for the better part of a century.
This is where I separate leftists and Democrats and pin the betrayal on the Democrats.
Leftists are to be expected to compete for their side in the activist game. Just as we and the Qutbists understood that Iraq was the key to the contest, the leftists also understood Iraq was the key.
My “correct narrative” of OIF is mainly based on Clinton, not Bush. Clinton worked closely with the senior Democrats, either in Congress or within his administration, on Iraq. The Democrats fully understood the US stakes in Iraq and what getting Iraq right meant to us. For the Democratic leadership on Iraq, Joe Lieberman was the norm, not the exception.
Yet the Left, whom the Democrats were already in bed with with Moveon, etc, made the Democrats an offer, and the Democrats accepted it. They sold out the long-term US interest in Iraq to Left activists to gain the upper hand over the Republicans. When Clinton flipped in opposition to the US course with Iraq that Clinton had set, I knew the Democrats’ betrayal was accomplished, not stopped by the few hold-outs like Lieberman .
Even so, if Clinton’s wife had won the Democratic nomination in 2008, I expect there would be a USFK-type force in Iraq today. But the Democrats made their deal with the Left and selling out the long-term US interest in Iraq as a “strategic partner … profoundly in the national security interests of the United States” (State Dept, 2011) was part of the payment.
I wouldn’t say result. I would say consequence.
Ayad Allawi. Not that Allawi was necessarily George Washington, but at that vital point of Iraq’s development, Allawi was the Shiite with whom the Sunni were willing to cross the historic bridge and buy into the post-Saddam Iraq that was made possible by the COIN “Surge” and Anbar Awakening. But, like the Democrats made their deal against national interest for political advantage, Maliki made his deal, too. The activist game is the only social cultural/political game there.
While it happened after he left office, Bush had a leader-of-the-free-world policy app set up for the Arab Spring: the Freedom Agenda. Obama dropped it.
Winning a war requires securing the peace. Conceiving war as a sports contest doesn’t work anywhere, Muslim or otherwise. That kind of approach to Iraq in 1991, when incredibly, HW Bush put the peace in Saddam’s hands, locked in the course for 2003.
In the real world contest, the only way to end the game is to lose. To be the champ with the peace on your terms, you have to keep playing.
Fix: But, like the Democrats made their deal against national interest for political advantage, Maliki made his deal, too. The activist game is the only social cultural/political game there is.
Eric, nice summary of your views. You can cite chapter and verse about why Iraq was legal and desirable better than just about anyone I know. Which I agree with. That does not change the fact that it is lost. Selling the American people on putting boots on the ground in the ME is going to be very hard – unless the unthinkable happens.
You refer back to Korea. It’s an example, but a dated one. When we occupied South Korea we were also occupying Japan and West Germany. It was not an outlier. Our leaders at the time (Truman/Eisenhower) knew the danger from Communism and were willing to put blood and treasure on the line.
Selling a 25 year occupation anywhere today will not fly as things stand now. We Americans are impatient as can be. We want results and we want them yesterday. Most citizens want to concentrate on making money, raising their families, helping those in need, and the many simple pleasures available to them in this incredibly wealthy country. They cannot grasp the intolerant intent and the crafty patience that is in ample supply among radical Islamists. We are asleep. 9/11 woke us up momentarily, but as a nation we’ve hit the snooze button again. Much worse must happen before the sleeping giant is fully awakened. The nation is muddling while we keep trying to wake it up. It’s a time that tries the souls of conservatives and realists. That doesn’t mean it’s hopeless or that I’ve given up. I’m still trying to be an activist in my own way.
JJ,
Thanks. You mean my “correct narrative of OIF” post that I linked per GRA’s request, right? Cuz I haven’t summarized my take on OIF in this thread.
I agree. The opportunity that was manufactured by the COIN “Surge” and Anbar Awakening and passed from Bush to Obama, with the practical conditions to take the next step, was a singular opportunity.
Like I said upthread, setting the record straight on OIF isn’t just about recovering what is most likely a lost opportunity.
It’s about fixing the “defected narrative” of OIF that colors the cultural view of our Iraq veterans’ service. It’s about neutralizing a false narrative that has been made into a harmful premise that’s actively influencing our politics, even guiding our nation’s course in the mode of its predecessor, the mainstreamed counter-cultural Vietnam War narrative. It’s about shining a judging spotlight on every politician and pundit who lied about OIF, especially the Democrats among them who had shaped the course that Bush faithfully carried forward from Clinton.
On principle, I could accept, grudgingly, if we as a nation made a thoughtful deliberate decision to retire our leader of the free world and go another way. I understand the merits of the alternatives.
What I can’t stand is that America has been tricked into the course change by a false narrative. If we’re going to change course, make it a clean honest break. The change with the Democrats under Obama has been a mess because upholding the Left’s lies about OIF has corrupted the Democrats like virus-filled software.
What I have difficulty understanding is why the Left’s lies about OIF aren’t obvious to everyone else. You praise that I “can cite chapter and verse”. But the only difference between me and anyone else is that I read the primary sources for myself. They’re free on-line. Anyone with internet access can read them and know what I know. It’s simple. The “correct narrative” of OIF is straightforward. Notwithstanding his mistakes in the public presentation, Bush applied the enforcement procedure by the numbers.
Korea is my go-to reference because I served there and the mission was analogous to Iraq.
I haven’t seen that Truman and Eisenhower sold America on a multi-decade (and still counting) occupation as such. Rather, it was about appreciation of the competition with the enemy and the needs of the mission, which happened to be conditions-based and of indefinite duration. For Iraq, for example, we couldn’t just do the regime change and leave. The purpose of OIF as stated in the law and policy was to make Iraq compliant with the UN mandates – all of them. Regime change was just a preliminary step for the compliance process, which would require years to complete.
You say a similar course as Ike staying with Korea would be an outlier today. But it’s not. It’s normal today. It’s what we’ve been doing for decades. We’re still in Korea and the other post-WW2 Europe and Asia missions. Of more contemporary origin, we’re still rotating troops through Kosovo.
COIN worked in Iraq. It got us over the hump. In 2010-2011, the urgent controversy over OIF had subsided. There was no activist-generated swell of national opposition to extending the US mission in Iraq at that point, post-COIN. It was just Obama making an executive decision that Eisenhower could have made for Korea just as easily, if not more easily. Obama could have stayed the course just as easily as Ike did, too. In 2011, leaving Iraq was not a foregone conclusion driven by national outcry. It was a choice by a President to uphold a “defected narrative” of OIF.
Yes. The collective will to compete or bury our heads, whether for severing our ties with England or staying the course with Iraq, is a function of activism.
J.J.
I was on campus and in the Infantry in the late Sixties, on orders to RVN. My brother, a C130 nav, was killed first and I got off orders. Spent the rest of my time in Air Defense, a terrible place for a simple but honest grunt.
Sure, there were problems, but it was the “hippies”, the media and the democratic party. Not the entire culture. There were no PC censors forcing the entire language to change so that the subject can’t even be discussed. As far as we know, only a few State Dept people were on the take, not like today. Colleges and universities didn’t fund groups whose mission statement was to overthrow the nation on behalf of the USSR. Not the public one, anyway. When you were recruiting, you were on the hot seat. It would seem awful to somebody in that position. I used to get crap when outside the wire, so to speak, in uniform, but only a few newspapers were lying about things in Viet Nam. IOW, small, intense stuff happening to individuals wasn’t the measure of the opposition. Not like today.
I should say I was working with a faith-based peace and wonderfulness group and it was hilarious to watch the elephantine maneuverings the usual suspects performed to prove they were on our side after all once the USSR imploded. I was trying to think if gloating was Christian. I remained a sinner.
JJ,
Post script.
Me:
Here’s a very big addition to that point explaining why it continues to matter to set the record straight on OIF. I know you’ll take this one to heart.
Chris Kyle was a father. Of young children.
Many of our people who were killed in Iraq were dads or moms. Mostly of young children.
Many of our people who came back alive but psychologically and/or physically scarred had, have had, or will have children.
For the kids of our KIAs, especially but not limited to those who were too young to form distinctive memories of their parent, they will only ever know their mom or dad through the cultural context of the mission that took their parent from them. And what did that mission mean? What was it for? This thing that their nation decided was worth more than the life of their mom or dad, being there to raise them.
For the kids of many of our WIAs, they will grow up with the scarring of OIF in/on their parent as a formative part of their upbringing. They, too, will understand their parent in large part through the cultural context of OIF.
Right now, the prevailing cultural context is the “defected narrative” of OIF that people of the Right are backing away from correcting, even though ‘American Sniper’ has opened a passing of window of opportunity to confront it head on with the “correct narrative” of OIF.
For me, setting aside all other reasons, their legacy for their children is enough incentive to spread the “correct narrative” of OIF.
Richard and Eric, I’ve enjoyed our conversation. Too bad we can’t share it over a couple of brewskis. We could solve all the world’s problems then. 🙂
The stuff that you find on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51DLbuom70M
Besides her views on government coercion, welfare and the 2nd amendment, most of what she says is left leaning to the max.
WARNING: 30 minute rant by, what I sense and gather from her other videos, a libertarian anarchist.