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How the left wins political arguments: keep it simple, stupid — 21 Comments

  1. See my post on the last thread on Lies…

    Once the truth is absent the lie prevails

    “Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence”. Solzhenitsyn

    It is not because the truth is too difficult to see that we make mistakes… we make mistakes because the easiest and most comfortable course for us is to seek insight where it accords with our emotions – especially selfish ones.
    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    Hastiness and superficiality are the psychic diseases of the 20th century, and more than anywhere else this disease is reflected in the press.
    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    The next war… may well bury Western civilization forever.
    Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Lie #1: Every President has Taken Executive Action on Immigration

    No other president has ever issued an amnesty of anywhere near this scope, created it out of thin air, or built it upon a prior executive action instead of a statute

    Lie #2: Illegal Immigrant Crossings are Down
    this is the third straight year that border crossings have gone up

    Lie #3: It does not grant citizenship or the right to stay here permanently

    Under the royal edict, the work permits can be renewed every three years, and most likely, they will be renewed at the same 99.5% acceptance rate as DACA applications

    Lie #4: Only 5 Million

    Make no mistake about it. Obama’s illegal amnesty will not just apply to 5 million individuals. It will apply by default to all 12-20 million illegals in the country as well as the millions more who will now come here to enjoy the permanent cessation of borders and sovereignty

    Lie #5: Deport Felons

    e has done the opposite. 36,000 convicted criminal aliens were released last year, 80,000 criminal aliens encountered by ICE weren’t even placed into deportation proceedings, 167,000 criminal aliens who were ordered deported are still at large, 341,000 criminal aliens released by ICE without deportation orders are known to be free and at large in the US

    Lie #6: Don’t deport families

    bama is playing the family card. It works like this: people are encouraged to come here illegally, Obama grants them amnesty, then their relatives all get to come, even though they would otherwise be ineligible under public charge laws

    Lie #7: They have to pay taxes to stay

    Aside from the absurd notion that they would turn someone away for not paying taxes, almost every one of these illegal immigrants lacks a high enough income to incur a net positive tax liability

    Lie #8: Background Checks

    the reality is that Obama has already done this with DACA, and 99.5% of applications were approved, including those of criminals

    Lie #9: Cracking Down on Illegal Immigration at the Border

    what good are more agents if they are explicitly intimidated into turning a blind eye. Moreover, there is no promise to build a fence or implement a visa tracking system, so any talk of enforcement is an insult to our intelligence

    Lie #10: Scripture tells us, we shall not oppress a stranger

    There are different variations of this verse throughout the Bible, but each one uses the Hebrew word “Ger” to describe what Obama translates as “stranger.” A Ger is a convert to Judaism. The commandment was not referring to people who illegally migrate to a nation state. And more importantly, it is downright offensive to Americans to insinuate that not granting them benefits is tantamount to oppression

    excerpted from: https://www.conservativereview.com/commentary/2014/11/top-10-lies-from-obamas-nullification-speech

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    Obama gladly rebuts its own lies as soon as they are no longer useful. The Democrats don’t care what that does to its stooges — they will anyway string together some kind of explanation.

    the original

    Moscow gladly rebuts its own lies as soon as they are no longer useful. The Kremlin doesn’t care what that does to its stooges — they will anyway string together some kind of explanation.

    -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

    OBama lies because he genuinely and honestly believes that there is no such thing as truth.

    the original

    Putin’s Russia lies because it genuinely and honestly believes that there is no such thing as truth.

  2. I thought that that was one of the best pieces Megan McCardle has written in a while. And she’s right.

    I think one reason people like this blog is that Neo is willing to take on and distill some of these “lengthy technical discussions”, enough so that her readers will get interested enough to want to dig into them themselves.

    I’m an example with the ‘Gramscian Tide’ phenomenon, of which I was totally ignorant until I came here (and I continue to study it with ever-increasing dismay).

  3. It does seem to me that defining “tweaking” of current law is a very difficult task. There’s a pretty good piece up at AOL highlighting this:

    Among those being protected from deportation under Obama’s plan are the parents of U.S. citizens and legal permanent residents, roughly 4.1 million people.

    A senior administration official said Thursday that the decision to protect this group is in line with existing law that allows adult citizens to sponsor their parents for immigration. Obama’s plan goes a step further because the sponsoring citizen doesn’t have to be an adult. And in such cases, the protection from deportation would be temporary – 3 years. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to be identified by name.

    A year after Ronald Reagan and Congress enacted an overhaul that gave legal status to up to 3 million immigrants who had no authorization to be in the country in 1986, Reagan’s Immigration and Naturalization Service expanded the program to cover minor children of parents granted amnesty. Spouses and children of couples in which one parent qualified for amnesty but the other did not remained subject to deportation, leading to efforts to amend the 1986 law.

    President George H.W. Bush in 1990 established a “family fairness” program in which family members who were living with a legalizing immigrant and who had been in the U.S. before passage of the 1986 law were granted protection from deportation and authorized to seek employment. The administration estimated that up to 1.5 million people would be covered by the policy. Congress later made the protections permanent.

    At issue is how far Obama can go on his own to shield from deportation immigrants who are in the country illegally. The administration and its supporters have argued that the use of prosecutorial discretion – the ability to decide which cases will be pursued by prosecutors, either in immigration or criminal court – allows the president to decide which groups of immigrants should be a priority. Obama has argued that he can go one step further and use a provision in immigration law called “deferred action” to formally protect particular immigrants from deportation.

    Immigrants granted deferred action are also eligible for work permits.

    What the president can’t do is halt all deportations, or permanently change the immigration status of any specific group of immigrants. Only Congress has that power.

    I’m having a hard time seeing Obama’s change to letting the sponsoring citizen be a non-adult is something completely different than the Reagan and Bush changes.

  4. We used to be a serious nation with a serious place in the world. We did great things and thus we held serious debates in public.

    Now, “it’s especially [easy] if the MSM is on your side, it’s easy as pie to tell effective lies….”

    And so we no longer have any serious debate. This is as fine a reason as any other to leave a dying America. It’s deying, debate is dead, and dishonest plagues the body politic like a corpse in the sun, picked over by carrion.

  5. McArdle is right and neo enlarges the point nicely.

    Many of my contacts are former enlisted men from my Navy days. They are good people – hard workers, patriotic, and family oriented. Some are quite successful businessmen. But many of them get their information almost exclusively from the MSM. They have lives they are happy in and don’t want to get bogged down in the nitty gritty of politics and government policies. There are some days when I get upset because they are just drifting along without making the effort to understand the issues. But there are also days when I sometimes envy them. How much less stressful it would be to just coast along and accept what the MSM tells me. Like Alfred E. Neuman, “What, me worry?” 🙂 Unfortunately, I’m just not wired like that. I want to understand what’s going on and I am grateful everyday for neo and all her wonderful commenters. It’s like being a member of a college seminar where everyone is getting their say and we all are getting educated a bit more everyday.

  6. If you are on our soil without going through the process to be here legally you are by definition a criminal, period. Nothing that the messiah has done changes this simple truth.

  7. The net effect…was that the administration could make claims that were impossible to effectively refute in debate, because . . . [people] didn’t have time to master the arcane art of CBO budget rules. [McArdle]

    . . . neither the politicians nor the MSM actually want the public to understand in any deeper meaningful way.[Neoneocon]

    Think for a moment about what this says about public debate; One is not arguing to sway minds, one argues to say, as Obama has about Obamacare, that an issue has been debated in the public forum. By implication, the govt’s duty to its citizens has been satisfied with a debate that has been reduced to the formalism of Kabuki theater.

    And this outrage is perpetrated with the tax dollars forcibly wrung from our wallets and purses. Thank you Congress and Mr. President. May we have another?

  8. And yet, there is, I believe, cause for hope. I just read this over at Ace of Spades (ace.mu.nu):

    Most of us are down. But why?

    We should naturally be down if Obama were perverting the American constitutional system and profiting from it. We should be down if Obama enacted a welter of socialist policies and the economy boomed anyway, thus suggesting to voters that socialism “works.”

    We should be down if Obama imposed a socialist health care system on the country and our countrymen enjoyed the tyranny.

    But they don’t.

    At every single pass — the economy, Iran, IS, Obamacare, immigration — Obama and the left are being discredited, and not just slightly discredited, but discredited to a Carter-like degree.

    Possibly discredited for 20 or 30 years.

    We should not be so down.

    We do not like what this monster is doing to America, of course.

    But he is not succeeding. He is failing, and failing hard.

    And he will bring the Democrat Party and the media with him as he falls.

    Posted by Ace at 03:52 PM

  9. T,

    I wish Ace were right. I truly do. And though I depend on my own observation and reading, what I am seeing is the opposite.
    Watch this short video taken on our college campuses.

    Oh yes, regarding the left’s (via Obama) actions, there is whining and complaints. There are eloquent and impassioned arguments and rebuttals. But yesterday’s outrage will soon become tomorrow’s norm and the ball has been moved just a little further down the field towards the goal line.

    The republicans lack the courage to act in any meaningful way. They tremble and quake at the very word impeachment. They go along, because inside, they are not really much different. No meaningful reforms will occur regrading immigration, taxes, energy policy, you name it.

    Bread and circuses all the way to the collapse. Because the one thing nobody will touch, the real third rail of American politics is the freebies government has given the citizens, poor, middle class, and rich.

    All this outrage about Gruber saying in an unguarded moment, or moments what he thought was true. He was correct. We are that stupid. (By we I mean the everyone) We elected this phony twice!. We are so degenerate that such phonies, who would have been marginal clowns at best in a more serious age, are now considered serious.

    If Ace is in any way right, it will be too little, too late. Nobody is willing to face the hard medicine of loosing their bread and circuses. Nothing has changed since ancient times.

  10. Tim P,

    I understand your frustration. I, OTH take a more optimistic view. Why? We’ve seen this before in history and Obama and his minions are simply too narcissistic to attend to the lessons of history. I also see it as a long term struggle. No waving of a magic wand to make things right in an instant. Also a quote at Ace (Reiner Maria Rilke quoted by Maetenloch):

    “Wer spricht von Siegen? éœberstehen ist alles” – “Who speaks of victory? Endurance is everything”

  11. Well said, Tim. Alas.
    The story, in this case that Reagan did it, that goes along with the lie or talking point or misdirection or whatever is always heard repeated and repeated in propaganda style. I think that this is both an indication of the low opinion the propagandist has for the public and a way of telling himself that what any rational person would know to be crazy is really true. Believing the truth of the moment is very important to the psyche of someone whose life is a continual utopia psychodrama.
    What sweeping changes can we hope to see come Jan. 20? McConnell and Boehner are not my idea of guys who want to tangle with no community organizers. Maybe an internal fight within the Republican Party? That might not be so bad.

  12. Actually, there’s an even faster way of doing this.

    In Australia, under their previous (leftist) PM Julia Gillard, who stopped enforcing border control – just like Obama – 3 illegal immigrant boats per day were arriving in Australia.

    Under their current (centre-right) PM Tony Abbott, who started re-enforcing border control, that number dropped to zero.

    Australia has a coastline of approximately 16k miles. The US/Mexico border is 2k miles long. Border control works.

  13. Ann:

    Did you read the quote at the end of my post? It explains the difference. Reagan and Bush were acting under powers granted them explicitly by an act of Congress that had just been passed, and they were carrying out the will of Congress. In fact, objections to what they did centered mainly on the idea that they hadn’t gone far enough in their actions.

    Obama is acting instead of Congress, in order to thwart its will and do what it has explicitly refused to do. He used to make statements that clearly recognized that fact, over and over. Now he has turned on a dime.

  14. Ann: I’m having a hard time seeing Obama’s change to letting the sponsoring citizen be a non-adult is something completely different than the Reagan and Bush changes.

    Thats because you dont know what is required of a sponsor. In order to be a sponsor, you have to fill out form I-134 Affidavit of Support or form I-864

    I-134 – To show that visa applicants have sponsorship and will not become public charges while in the United States. The sponsor must file a separate affidavit for each applicant.

    I-864 – This form is required for most family-based immigrants and some employment-based immigrants to show that they have adequate means of financial support and are not likely to rely on the U.S. government for financial support.

    That is the sponsor, in the case of my wife and i, has to sign a form that basically says that if things go sour, and they cant work, you will support them NOT welfare, or other programs of the state, and will do so for a minimum of three years.

    with US child labor laws, how can a child sponsor someone and pay their rent and lodging and food and all that if the person sponsored cant?

    The “child” cant support the adults
    the “child” cant legally enter into a binding contract
    the “child” is not legally allowed to work until a certain age and without parental permission

    ergo ipso facto – you know the rest…

    The Form I-864 Affidavit of Support is a legally enforceable contract, meaning that either the government or the sponsored immigrant can take the sponsor to court if the sponsor fails to provide adequate support to the immigrant. In fact, the law places more obligations on the sponsor than on the immigrant — the immigrant could decide to quit a job and sue the sponsor for support.

    When the government sues the sponsor, it can collect enough money to reimburse any public agencies that have given public benefits to the immigrant. When the immigrant sues, he or she can collect enough money to bring his or her income up to 125% of the amount listed in the U.S. government’s Poverty Guidelines (as shown in the chart in Form I-864P).

    The sponsor’s responsibility lasts until the immigrant becomes a U.S. citizen, has earned 40 work quarters credited toward Social Security (a work quarter is about three months, so this means about ten years of work), dies, or permanently leaves the United States. If the immigrant has already been living in the U.S. and earned work credits before applying for the green card, those count toward the 40.

    and under US law

    Minors (those under the age of 18, in most states) lack the capacity to make a contract. So a minor who signs a contract can either honor the deal or void the contract. There are a few exceptions, however. For example, in most states, a minor cannot void a contract for necessities like food, clothing, and lodging. Also, a minor can void a contract for lack of capacity only while still under the age of majority. In most states, if a minor turns 18 and hasn’t done anything to void the contract, then the contract can no longer be voided.

  15. as far as how they win arguments, they dont.

    they validate belief (without truth or validity being an issue), and ignore facts.

    in order to win by facts the subject has to accept that these are the facts, and accept losing if they are not with the facts.

    most liberals will say things like, i dont believe thats true, they dont believe that it “should be that way” etc

    so one side is arguing reality, the other side is arguing the validation of beliefs understanding that one believes reality, not confirms it by fact – including validating that they believe they are being factual, or fact based. their beliefs are confirmed by zeitgeist numbers, not by details.

    so you have one side saying what people want to believe, do believe, and believe because so many are the same in their ideas… while the other side says, look, these are the facts, they impose these limitations, and so on and so forth.

    one requires acceptance of what one already believes the other requires belief to change to be accepted.

    this is what hitler did as to jews… what obama does with race… plays on beliefs, not on facts, and their side of the system plays games to establish the right beliefs before they take advantage of them, often by forcing the social group by shame, or other methods till it exists long enough those who are younger believe what those who are older portray by fear of social aprobation

    so women are equal, men are scum
    older people know women are not equal, but act as if they are, and so do not oppose laws of affirmative action (a thing that proves inequality) and fear of legal trouble, social trouble, etc. molds the behavior. young people growing up follow the beliefs they pick up, not the facts of the cargo cult front imposed by social games.

    so by establishing some fake rule that pretends that equal numbers would exist if there was no racism, they get to confirm the belief that blacks do not behave differently than whites, who behave differently than chinese, etc. (ie. levels of physical aggressiveness and impulse).

    they pin the difference on culture and hate of blacks an you have a hard time fighting belief. the math gives them some crutch of an excuse which lets them hang on to the belief the way a water cooler in the ocean allows one to survive a shipwreck

    so the facts of things dont matter. ferguson is a good example, of their desire to use believe to impose a reality, rather than allow reality to create their beliefs.

    is it any wonder that leaders who understand this look down on the idiot rubes?

  16. T with regard to the media and Democratic Party being taken down:
    1) have you (or anyone else) noticed whether Obama has lost an once of popularity over this. Polls at RCP do not reflect any.
    2) Obama & the Dems won the youth vote in the last elections. People do not give up ideas that prove bad, they die off and better ideas take their place. That means the anti-Dem/left-wing fascist ideas have a better chance of dying out.
    In short, it is way too early to think the left-wing fascist Obama is finished. A people stupid enough to elect and re-elect something like him cannot boast of being a nation of quick learners.

  17. BTW, the book Camp of the Saints describes a world in which a mass migration of third world poor descends on Europe. I don’t know how it ends.

  18. I also see it as a long term struggle. No waving of a magic wand to make things right in an instant. [T]

    ****
    In short, it is way too early to think the left-wing fascist Obama is finished.” [Bob from Virginia]

    It sounds like we agree.

    A people stupid enough to elect and re-elect something like him cannot boast of being a nation of quick learners. [Bob from Virginia]

    Remember half of the voting electorate voted against him. If the “Romney wasn’t conservative enough” faction would have shown up in force at the polls to at least vote against Obama he would not have a second term, but perhaps in the long term that was for the best. This way, as his administration fully implodes he’s denied the “If only I’d had more time” excuse.

    It’s way too early to make predictions about where this goes. I, writing for myself however, don’t see defeat as the only possibility.

  19. 100+Million corpses last century were how they “won the argument”. Worth remembering in this vapid age of nearly instant forgetting.

    But, then, the Twin Towers came down in Manhattan a scant few years ago and the high minded, short puckered slicks elected and re-elected The Bama and the nausea provoking new Lefty Mayor. Stalin is grining knowingly.

    Hmmmmm….Seem to be having a cynicism attack today.

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