To those who still think Snowden is a hero
I already wrote one post about this today, but it turns out I have more to say.
There are a few people in the comments section here, there, and everywhere who still think Edward Snowden is a hero. I cannot state in strong enough terms that I think they are about as wrong as a person can be.
Virtually everyone who thinks that Snowden is a hero is glad he exposed the NSA domestic data-gathering efforts. To them I say that he didn’t really expose much of anything. Very little of his information was new; you just weren’t paying attention to the efforts of previous NSA whistleblowers. Read this if you want to get up to speed on what they revealed prior to Snowden. He’s getting the attention because he focused the attention on himself in dramatic fashion by his flight.
But if that had been all he had done, I most assuredly would not be writing these posts calling him a spy and saying that his actions have endangered US security, although it’s possible that in talking about the data-collection programs Snowden all these earlier NSA whistleblowers (I don’t call Snowden a whistleblower; I call him a leaker, and that’s actually the kindest thing I call him) have indeed endangered national security somewhat. But as a tradeoff, they exposed something we really do all need to know about, a program that was and is ripe for being abused by the government.
But Snowden by no means stopped at that. He took a great deal more information with him when he left his job at Booz, a job he only took in order to get information to leak. Not only has he sought and received shelter in and/or communicated with countries that are enemies of the US and enemies of liberty, but he has given them sensitive intelligence information that almost certainly will endanger our security and the liberty he supposedly loves so much, both here and elsewhere.
There is simply no reason for him having done that that could rationally be described as laudable. Those of you who still consider him heroic are only looking at a tiny part of what he’s done: the data-mining, phone- and email-records part of it. But that is the proverbial tip of a very large and unseen—almost certainly extraordinarily dangerous—iceberg that Snowden has unleashed.
Foreign affairs, where the US is but one competitor rather than sovereign, have never been a strong suit for libertarians.
I disagree. We are looking at the fact the previous whistle blowers were essentially throttled. Secon, we did not know the extent of the internal spying by our own government. This was all occurring without probable cause. Third, we can make a strong case that government officials lied to Congress about the extent of their spying.
Without Snowden, this would not be widely known.
Rick Caird:
First of all, those whistleblowers were not “throttled.” But even if they had been throttled, that is mostly irrelevant to what I am saying here. Even if they had never existed it is mostly irrelevant and does not really change the argument I’m making.
Let me try to spell it out even more clearly: Revealing the domestic surveillance information is not all that Snowden did. It is not even the biggest thing that Snowden did. It is only a tiny part of what Snowden did. He did a great many other things that are not good, and are potentially extremely dangerous to us, and cannot be ignored. On balance it is highly likely that his actions as leaker were far more dangerous to us than helpful to us.
An awful lot of people (such as yourself) who think Snowden is a hero are ignoring my argument and repeating yourselves. Snowden is not who you think he is. He would have been had he limited himself to revealing the domestic surveillance program, and then you might rightly have called him a hero and I might have even possibly agreed with you. But that’s not what happened.
I begin to wonder if you actually read my post right below this one, on the same subject, to which I linked at the beginning of this post. In it, I specifically said I don’t trust the government very much at all, but I trust Snowden less.
Eric: I’ll put it even more strongly—many libertarians are naive fools when it comes to foreign affairs.
You don’t fool me. You’re just saying all these things in the foolish hope that the NSA will leave you alone.
Which, of course, does not mean that many libertarians are no fools when it comes to foreign policy. They are.
Then again so are neocons.
Not so sure about neoneocons, but they may just be hedging their bets.
Sadly, I think the question is not who is right and who is wrong but who is wrong and who is even more wrong. My first response was that the NSA (and those who were using the collected data) are the ones most to be criticized. And I confess a bias against the Obama administration, a willingness to believe the worst. But I now think it is Snowden who is the more wrong.
I would demur with Neo’s opinion only with regard to whether he is a spy. I have not seen evidence that he was working for some foreign entity. And although he may be giving aid and comfort to our adversaries, they have not been declared to be enemies; and so ‘traitor’ does not really apply either.
At best and at worse, he seems to be a self-appointed savior; and such persons can be very dangerous.
He is worse than a spy working for an enemy government because this means he was not recruited, he volunteered. Forget the domestic stuff. Since the internet, every government knows what its citizens are thinking. That needs to be adressed but it is not the issue that our enemies care about. Like Obama, Snowden has put Americans in harm’s way. And with his immature mindset, he is the star of his own spy movie. Or it is as if he is toying with the US like he is playing a video game and trying to get to the next level of play, This is a game to him. If he were not a craven coward, he would not run to the enemies of the American people and declare that they are lovers of liberty, They are communists.
He is a traitor and he is a secret agent wannabe. He was rejected from special services with the US armed forces and this is his retribution. He does not care who he spies for just so long as the chase is on If he truly cared about liberty and freedom, he would not be sleeping with the enemy.
Jim Nicholas:
It is my impression that one can be a freelance spy. You do not have to be working for one particular government, nor does money have to be involved. Just taking secrets and giving them to foreign governments against our interests.
I have no idea what information he has or has not given to whom. Not even Greenwald is telling these days, nor can he be trusted for a number of other reasons.
History will decide which chess pieces were heroes or traitors depending on what results.
I’ve long experience with watching history unfold.
The NSA wire tapping issue is not that big of a problem. The Leftist alliance has had all kinds of shinobi like methods to get information even without using the NSA. The NSA was just like a convenient app for them.
OK, Snowden is a traitor. Now let’s return to the gross incompetence of the people who set up this system and manage it, and the abuse of the system by the Obama administration. If this system has such sensitive information, how can a low level contractor gain access to this information? This is like having a nuclear weapon that anyone can take. How is it that Obama got the FISA court to approve his request for all cell phone records? Appropriate safeguards are in place we have been told. Bullcrap.
kit:
Agreed. And well put. Snowden is a naive, dangerous fool with some computer skills and delusions that he has more judgment than he does. And whereas he says it’s not about him, his actions have been designed to make it very much about him.
“Hero” is a mere word.
Snowden’s motivations are for his own conscience. What he has done has been a harm to Obama and for that he has done more for this country than the entire republican party did ion the 2012 election year. He has also woken America up to the fact that we are being abused by our own so-called government which does not have the “consent of the governed”.
Clinton, let’s remember, actually sold the US put to China for hard cash. For actual money. The President. Obama I am sure is doing the same. Then is was Buddhist “Nuns” giving Gore an envelope loaded with cash. Nothing so crude this time, but you tell me how a man who hardly had a job in his life is now a multi multi millionaire.
My assumption = and I’d love to hear a good contrary argument – is that Obama is more harmful to America than any enemy America has ever had, and more harmful today than China, Russia, Al Qaeda, Iran, and the Taliban combined.
Is that an exaggeration? No. It’s a fact. It is proverbial since forever that nations and peoples are not defeated externally, but fall from internal rot. Obama is the personificaction of the corruption and rot of America. He is our worst nightmare; and he is the President. Yes, I realize he was elected. Twice. All the more do I say he and his supporters are more dangerous to the rest of us than anything China in its worst imaginings could do.
By the way, don’t look now but we are about as “free” under Obama, as Chinese and Russians are under their regimes. And China, at least, is getting more free while we are getting less. Soon, they will pass us up. Soon, the last best hope of the world will not be America; it will be places other.
People are making too many assumptions about Snowden, his motivations, and various other things. Based merely upon the word of journalists and second to 5th hand sources at best.
Snowden didn’t even get the number of months Obama was given: time to prove things one way or another.
Those who feel emotions one way or another, calling him hero or traitor, are making too many judgments based upon biased information sources.
Mike:
If you think China and Russia are more free than we are now, you’re sadly mistaken. And if you think China or Russia are on the way to becoming more free than we, you are also mistaken. Unfortunately, what I see is that we are becoming less free and more like them, and the world will somewhat even itself out (except for the Arab and Muslim world, the least free of all) but no country will be as free as America used to be.
You are correct that countries often fall (that is, republics often fall) from their own internal rot. But both Snowden and Obama are part and parcel of that rot in different ways, part of the reason we will fall if we do fall. Again, if Snowden had kept his revelations to the domestic data-gathering program, that would have been a different story. But giving intelligence information (such as, for example, the details of our intelligence operations, and the identity of our agents) to those countries weakens us immeasurably.
And if you don’t think there are many countries and/or movements in the world still trying to undermine and even destroy us, you are naive.
You are actually doing a version of what the left did after 9/11, when Bush was president. They were so angry and distrustful and disdainful of him that they had to downplay the dangers of terrorism. We do have enemies and face threats from without as well as within. Intelligence operations are necessary to combat the former in particular. Revealing our secrets to external enemies is damaging to us. I wouldn’t think I would have to explain this and convince anyone of it.
There may have been whistleblowers prior to Snowden telling us about NSA email possession, phone calls etc but Snowden came along at the right time in the midst of all the obama scandals
adding another revolting layer our outrage.
But I just cannot get too strident about his *other sins*, the
way the that US Security works other revealed secrets……etc.etc.
These things are probably all ready known by our adversaries
he ll just be providing confirmation. Further *good enough * for Uncle Gov, as others have said if Snowden was so low level how
inept is NSA that this info is accessible to a contract employee?
And isn t there a current retired US General that is spouting leaks in a book he has written ?
So called secret information is all over the place anyway.
My biggest concern is gov trashing our Rights in cahoots with
the 1% ers Congress, Executive & Judiciary
MollyNH:
Keep telling yourself that.
Of course. Everything about our security is already known by our enemies. Including the names of all our CIA agents. Of course. Now, why didn’t I think of that?
I have been impressed by this strange need to deny the potential danger of Snowden’s actions with rationalizations that are, to put it bluntly, absurd. Many people seem to have lionized him and cannot let go of that notion.
The enemy of your enemy Obama (and/or big government) is not necessarily your friend. Snowden is not your friend.
At this point, no one should be supporting “U.S. security”. When they fail their own, governments need to fall. This government has proven deceitful, malevolent, to down-right evil. I do not support it or it’s actions and hope it falls hard enough that it is removed. It is not my government. I say that as an enemy of the state, by their call. And whether you believe it or not, you are as well. Wake up, sister.
“But giving intelligence information (such as, for example, the details of our intelligence operations, and the identity of our agents) to those countries weakens us immeasurably.”
I’ve seen no evidence of this. Manning was able to leak information which got agents in Afghanistan killed and the proof was mostly in the fact that people died, although there are different interpretations as to why the enemy targeted them.
All I’ve seen are speculations about what was leaked or not and because it is a worst case speculation, it appears true. However, it lacks the fundamental 3 independent sources (who aren’t collaborating together to make up a story) line.
Any rogue agent’s actions are dangerous, whether for himself or the people around him. What I’ve seen is that people go out of their way to discredit Snowden and question his motivations, as if somehow that makes his detractors more credible or authoritative. People with no independent analysis, intel profile, or personal interview with Snowden, are either believing in the hype, the character assassination, or some combination of the two as if this was Truth. There are various factions at work and each has their own propaganda point of view, but instead of breaking this down and looking at it logically or rationally, people prefer emotions.
Rogue agents are the purview and responsibility of the nation and government they work for, even if they are more than one. They are not an individual citizen’s responsibility, not even if you are related to them in some fashion.
So what is the point or benefit to participate or believe the character assassination of Snowden? Do people think this will change the US government’s handling of secrets, like with Clinton’s aide after 9/11? I doubt it. Will it change Snowden’s behavior or China/Russia’s behavior? I doubt that one too.
Positive and negative emotions are two sides of the same coin. They are connected. But when used for no perceivable gain or benefit to the individual, it becomes more susceptible to external influence.
There are only two ways to stop defectors, which the Soviets did try some of them.
1. Stop them from leaving or contain/imprison/eliminate them.
2. Get information on them through spy networks and citizen neighborhood watches. Aka, Big Brother.
3. Keep your people and agents happy so they have no reason to defect or go elsewhere.
Neither a nation’s people nor their government can stop future defectors or rogue agents if they don’t even understand why they were motivated to do what they did. It doesn’t matter what people think of a person’s motivations. If the motivation is strong enough, it will promote a certain behavior. If you don’t like a behavior, change the motivation, whether you think it right or wrong, true or false doesn’t matter.
As has been asserted, these propositions are not mutually exclusive: Snowden can be a traitor and also the catalyst for beneficial insight into our powerful government.
It is impossible to eliminate the context of his actions: the exposure of Obama’s tyrannical hand on the citizenry through his various agencies. Which is worse — the NSA, IRS, EPA, DOJ, CFPB?
The closest personality to Snowden would appear to be the Falcon: Christopher Boyce.
(My old gym class semi-attendee.BTW, he was an extremely antisocial, rotund, pig — 300#ish as a sophmore in high school!)
I find it VERY disturbing that Snowden toted FOUR laptops to Red China. These days such devices can hold the Library of Congress.
The opfor ALREADY knew of our CIA assets — we don’t have many. (Ames… Hansen) They run police states.
One HAS to assume that Snowden has compromised our NSA code smiths. The results must be rated horrific.
I’ll put it this way:
But I’m not the CIC, so…
Neo, I don t have to keep *telling myself* about the merit or demerit of Snowden’s actions because its out of my capacity to act on it.
Being indignant or supportive of it probably just unnecessarily *stresses* a person.
I can t see investing that much *emotion* into it.
Once again it s an epic fail for the minions in Washington, everyday they demonstrate the
*gang that can t shoot straight* behaviors.
any incident that enhances their idiocy is cool with me .
He is both a hero, with his revelations of illegal activity (i.e. extra-Constitutional) by the government, and a “traitor”, with his choice to conspire with foreign interests. I am not certain which label is more relevant, but his motives are definitely suspect.
Neo responded to my comment. I still disagree with her. I found Eichnwald’s piece unimpressive. He spent an inordinate amount of time reliving the 1930’s and 40’s and claimed Snowden’s efforts were the equivalent of blowing Enigma and Purple. Not so. That was a different time and there was no domestic spying of the nature we have now (most of it, contrary to Neo, was not recognized by Congress or the American people). What Snowden revealed about Internet hacking of Chinese and Russians is certainly suspected by them just as we are aware of their attempts on us.
Then today, we learn the US has bugged the chambers of the EU. They are outraged and justifiably so. We also find that Congress is asking question about if the NSA is creating a gun registry from registry data. That is a function explicitly outlawed by legislation. There are also now concerns the FISA court is league with the government and rubber stamping whatever they want. Congress is concerned the NSA has gone far beyond what the Patriot Act and the FISA act.envisioned.
This all must be sorted out and without Snowden it would still be shrouded in secrecy and mystery. You, Neo, have fallen into the trap the government wants you to fall into. This is not about Snowden being a hero or a traitor. It is about the domestic spying by the NSA on US citizens. Questions have been asked, but not answered, and it looks as if the NSA is compiling data on Legislator and staff and on the Executive branch. Nothing is off limits to them. Is that what we want? If it is, then we need to take definite steps to allow that. If it is not, then we have to take steps to prevent it. But, this unrestricted collection of data on all US citizens will not end well. That is where you should be paying attention and not to “Snowden: hero or traitor”. It is not about Snowden. It is about us.
On the *lighter side*
Noticed at the check out, Supermarket Tabloid :
“Obama spied on Prince William & Kate !!!!”
Rick Caird:
No, I haven’t fallen into any trap by the government.
Nor was I especially influenced by the Eichenwald piece. I found it after I had come to my own conclusions about the Snowden matter. And if you’ve followed the trajectory of all my pieces on Snowden, you will find that my position has been consistent from the first. All the facts as I have read them—including the ones most favorable to Snowden, those published in the leftist Guardian at the outset, in the Greenwald articles—have led me to consider Snowden a naive (at best), mendacious, dangerous man.
That does not change the fact that I don’t trust the government not to abuse the NSA programs. The two things are not mutually exclusive. But I have never swallowed any memes about Snowden. From the start I’ve done my own research and used my own reasoning, and so far, interestingly enough, I have not been proven wrong.
For example, at the outset, using just the timeline Snowden provided about his job history at Booz, plus the one Greenwald provided about when Snowden first contacted him, it was obvious to me that Snowden only got the Booz job in order to steal the information and reveal it. And just a few days ago Snowden himself admitted that was the case. If you want to see how I regarded Snowden from the start, just use the search function on the blog and read my early pieces, for example this one. Or my very first piece on the subject.
Snowden’s travel plans ever since his leak have been highly suspect as well.
I’m still somewhat on the fence, like Ymarsakar. I don’t know enough at this point to make a judgement. The trip to Moscow does indeed look bad.
One thing I don’t know and which I’m curious about: Have any of Snowden’s superiors at the NSA or the contractor been punished, demoted, or fired? You’d think that heads would be rolling everywhere for allowing him to get loose with all that information.
Which brings me to my last point: Given that the Obama administration has been doing everything conceivable to damage America, it is possible that he was indeed “allowed” to get loose?
It sounds like tinfoil hattery, but I had to mention it.
More conspiracy theories. People think it is impossible to disprove a conspiracy theory. But that’s actually not quite correct. There are plenty of ways. Not about the conspiracy theory, but to do a check up on who actually believes in the theories.
Basically, when sane and truthful people believe in conspiracy theories, the theories are more likely to be true. When liars, drug addicts, and people who believe in any con imaginable, trust in conspiracy theories, that is a warning sign.
Neo, my point is Snowden does not matter as much as what the NSA and the government is doing to us. The fundamental tenets of this country and our Constitution are being violated and that is far more important than Snowden. Focus on Snowden if you must, but he is the least of our worries. The more we focus on Snowden, the less we focus on our liberties.
Tow examples of how that works. The first is Monica Lewwinski. The Clinton apologists were just starting their campaign of trashing Lewinski and her character, but the blue dress was revealed and then it went back to being about Clinton.
The second example is the Zimmerman trial. The Sanford police knew there was no case, but the race baiters decided to make a cause of it and it became about Zimmerman, the child with a bright future, and race, not about self defense. Now, with the trial, we are talking about self defense again.
There are always people who try to change the subject to personality and character and the government is at the forefront of that. Forget about Snowden and whether he is traitor or hero. To me, the real issue is what is the NSA doing and who gave them permission to do that.
Oh, and by the way, Snowden was a network guy. Network guys need to have access to just about everything to do their jobs. Network guys make sure traffic is flowing and that applications are accessible. Over the years, I have had access to lots of stuff like P/R data, and criminal records. I just didn’t look for anything, but I needed access to the application to make sure it was working. If Snowden had been an application programmer he would have had access to a lot less data. There are people who are saying that the data should have been encrypted. That would have solved the Snowden problem, but probably would have caused a lot of different problems.
The problem with Snowden’s travel plans is fiction. If he wishes to not end up disappeared, whether in solitary in a federal pen at best or simply murdered, he has little choice. As for his choosing the job to get the data, that should make clear how easy it would be to do the same thing for much more nefarious reasons. If he had gotten rich off the thing, that would have been one thing. Oh, I suppose book deals and a movie are possibilities, if he survives.
I just can’t agree where you are going and why. Those make perfect sense given the situation, tactically. And has been mentioned here and everywhere, Snowden isn’t the focus anyway. I just think you are still a little stuck in your old statist believing ways on this. I understand, but hope you pop this latest bubble.