…that if it seems too good to be true, maybe it is too good to be true.
Comments
Madoff: more evidence… — 64 Comments
Most people are easily manipulated by the masters in propaganda, deception, and psychological manipulation.
Just look at our last election.
Bush’s one sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people. Which pissed a lot of people, cause they wanted something to believe in and Bush gave them nothing but the truth, which wasn’t even coated in sugar.
It’s been barely whispered that Madoff has been contributing $25,000 per cycle to the DNC Senatorial Election Committee.
Here is the detailed description of Bush’s lies about torture.
Well, here you have one reader who is a Madoff victim. Not wealthy by most standards, my family pooled our resources to meet his minimum acceptance standard. We were referred by several family friends who are enormously wealthy. Unlike many hedge funds, who by definition are entities who invest in high risk deals for ever record-breaking profits, who invested with Madoff, our life-savings are gone. My father is 86 years old, worked extremely hard until just a few years ago, lived and spent conservatively his entire life, with the objective of having enough savings to make his last years comfortable. We’ve given generously to charity all along, believing that it is right to do so. I have lived similarly having learned from him. We had only invested with Mr. Madoff a couple of years ago, and received a steady, reasonable return on our investment — nothing more than any one would expect upon placing money with a professional finacial advisor instead of handling investments oneself.
So much for playing by all the rules all my life, as did my father. So much for foregoing indulgences, travel, and so forth, in the name of having security in old age, and provisions for illness (especially now, G-d Forbid!)
It’s easy to be shocked — especially when untouched by scandal. And Ymarsakar, even quite bright and cautious people fall prey to the best of scammers.
I would ask why…….except I know the answer. Life is not fair. And there is no way to make it so. Somehow we’ll manage to get food on the table, and a roof over our heads. It won’t be the same as planned, and there will be no compensation for putting off those rewards which one can usually expect for hard work.
We can live with good conscience, which might be consolation if we thought that Mr. Madoff might be suffering regrets from his actions. But I don’t think people like him do so. He operated in this manner for decades and decades, enriching himself and his family. In fact, the coup de gras was that with the last $200-300 million he had left in the firms accounts, he had planned to distribute it to family, friends and employees, before turning himself in. His wife and children should only live richly, while he rots in jail. (And no doubt, at the age of 70, hardship will be considered, and he will never serve his full sentence).
csimon: I’m so sorry to hear you were a victim of this. From what you say, it sounds as though there were no signs that there was any special risk in the investment.
P.S. Hyman Rosen, when you are charged with the safety and protection of the entire population of the United States, and when you are privy to all of the real threats which exist constantly — many of which are not leaked by an irresponsible press, and you which you learn nothing about… When you have made the hard decisions that are not popular with those who find certain actions philosophically repugnant, even when they have kept us safe for seven years, yourself included, then you might think about getting off your moral high horse, and toning down your holier-than-thou attitude, let alone your facility for judging much of that which you know little save for the writings of others with an agenda similar to your own. Enough already!
I, too, am Jewish and my family were all from Eastern Europe — specifically, Poland and Russia. I am well versed in the history of the holocaust and the persecutions going back thousands and thousands of years.
What takes place with prisoners who have been captured on battlefields fighting to do us harm; prisoners who have been caught planning and carrying out plots to kill as many people as they can in one fell swoop — is as different from what occurred to innocents during the Holocaust as anything possibly could be. Similarly, what was done at Abu Graib, for a handful of immature, out-of-line soldiers’ obscene amusement bears no relation to unpleasant interrogation techniques designed to uncover information to protect us, and often many citizens of other countries as well. The people who order this, who carry this out and do so in extreme effort to afford us the greatest protection are not evil Marquises de Sade who are inveterate sadists!
Wake up and look at the real world! Get yourself to the library and look up all the horrific and gory photographs of Mumbai, 9/11, bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, at embassies around the world, soldiers’ barracks…and other heinous attacks ad nauseum. And wake up and realize that those are soon to be dwarfed as the threat of nuclear attack swiftly becomes a reality.
It is one thing to say never again about the holocaust, even as ethnic cleansing still occurs in other parts of the world. THAT is a horror. But if trying to protect us from harm requires unsavory conditions, I’ll settle for not wanting to know the details and pray only that those who must do this things — which you seem to assume are fun for them — are able to attain their goal, and at the same time, be thankful that there are those who are willing to assume this nasty but unfortunately necessary business, and pray they obtain useful results.
Democrat culture of corruption and pay for play???
Hyman
Where is the order directing people to “torture”.
The piece is “opinion”. Critical Thinking 101 would teach that.
It’s nice for people to question the motives of Bush but I applaud his tough stance on gettting information out of people BENT on killing to advance their political agenda.
Let me question your motives Hyman. Do you want America to succeed?
This isn’t a real debate. This is YOU and those journalists (journalism is dead) questioning people’s motives.
The President has said repeatedly that America does not torture.
The ISSUE Hyman (yes – because you do not know the issue) is whether or not waterboarding is/should be considered torture.
Grown men can disagree on that question but you cannot go from that disagreement to questioning somebody else’s motives and still be HONEST. You are dishonest once you learn the issue and ignore it.
Checkmate.
neo, thanks for your words. There were no signs. The return varied basically between 8% — 12% (obviously not the high since the financial crash) — Basically it was what one would expect from a top money manager who for decades invested the money of some of the wealthiest people and top hedge funds and institutional funds.
Which is what makes it such a shock to the financial world. And the fact that he has kept this up for some 20-30 yrs! Both my father and are are financial astute, as well as extremely conservative as I mentioned above. We weren’t looking for any gifts (i.e. a ridiculous return unavailable to all but privileged) and didn’t receive any such thing. Our total investment amounted to a pittance compared to others’, and as such, in consideration of how much money might actually be gone, and how much might be recoverable, there is very little likelihood of any recovery.
Thanks to our uber-conservativeness — my mortgage was paid off. But in this market, we will likely be open to vultures who would love to make a killing now that we must sell our homes. So, so much for being conservative, honest, and cautious.
I say to everybody out there, be sure to pore over any financial statements on savings and investments, and stick look for safe margins, and security. I did so, but this guy was one slick thief, and many of those much much smarter than I were fooled, too.
csimon,
My heart goes out to you and your family. I am in the financial business myself, and Madoff and experiences like yours devastate investors and make it increasingly difficult for honest advisors to continue helping their clients.
With regard to your response to Hyman Rosen: That isone of the most profound tracts I have read in quite a long time. You seem to have a level head on your shoulders and it is clear that the world is a better place simply because your and your family are in it.
Mazeltov to you!
Hyman Rosen, try to stay on topic. Decent arguments can be offered against your accusation, but would derail this thread.
I was responding to “Bush’s one sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people.” In fact, with his incessant claims of “a few bad apples” he was attempting to deceive people about the fact that torture was being officially authorized. I’m sorry if it’s off-topic to respond to a post that’s off-topic.
Thanks for your words T.
As for Hyman Rosen, yes, your words were off topic, but I would’t quibble with that, nor do I have any problem with an opinion different from my own.
What does irk me, are ignorance, moral platitudes, tired judgements, and holier-than-thou attitudes. My answer probably reflects that fatigue (as do my typos which I apologize for!) and and frustration with those who seem either completely removed from reality, or simply write while refusing to using their G-d-given brains to think. (Nothing personal, of course!)
Hyman wrote, “he was attempting to deceive people about the fact that torture was being officially authorized.”
Again, you did not prove that nor did the WP writer. What you offered was opinions about what Bush ‘attempted’.
Unless you are god – you are not able to do that.
Unless you show the document showing “torture was being officially authorized” then you failed.
In Blagobing’s case. There is proof.
And Ymarsakar, even quite bright and cautious people fall prey to the best of scammers.
They would be included in most people in the end.
No signs …except for that absurd degree of serial correlation in returns, or that Mom and Pop auditor. What is lacking here is what we call la mondanite. Now I understand how Bush snookered you people into wrecking your economy and surrendering your constitution in a fawning panic.
Now I understand how Bush snookered you people into wrecking your economy and surrendering your constitution in a fawning panic.
Neo, this is why I assumed this a-hole wasn’t an American.
Pierre, I never, ever, make a comment putting down another reader for their opinion which differs from mine, and, in fact, take great care not to. Further, I can appreciate different points of view when well-supported with fact, and almost always go to links supplied by other commenters to maintain a well-informed viewpoint upon which to base my own opinions.
I also would like to say I find your words — clearly referring to me and other victims of Madoff — to be not only ignorant, but distasteful, and cowardly, as you casually make judgements based on incorrect conjectures made 3 days in hindsight. More so than anything, you reveal more about yourself than you do about those your words are intended to insult.
Madoff is a crook. But all the facts — any facts — are not yet known. And despite our financial misfortune, I still regard myself as lucky to be a citizen of the United States, lucky to have been able to work and save a comfortable amount of money, which is now regrettably likely gone, and lucky to live in a country where I have the opportunity to make more money which I intend to do, lucky that I do not regard myself as the ultimate victim — there are many worse off than me, and many much better off. But I am not one who ascribes to the belief that the govt. should do everything for us, give those who don’t have that which others have earned because it is “unfair.” I don’t believe the govt. should use taxpayer dollars to redress the results of poor judgements of its citizens (like buying houses they can’t afford which might now be in foreclosure — most rental apts. are just fine if that is what one can afford); (similarly, businesses that are run poorly, and are better off in bankruptcy to reorganize instead of throwing money at them which will just enrich the Unions’ pots of gold and ultimately result in business failure again.) In this land where there is more opportunity than anywhere on earth, people need to use it to raise themselves up, instead of carrying chips on their shoulders and whining as children do that things are not fair.
Life is not fair. But those that don’t do for themselves, don’t deserve what they covet. Last time I checked, our Constitution was not designed to make our leader, the President, into Robin Hood. His responsibility is to serve, protect and preserve — and I’m still here, and Pierre, you are too, and you shouldn’t take that for granted these days!
P.S. To all who suffer through my wordy comments today, I apologize for monopolizing space. But my most recent reality (losing to Madoff) has me in rare form, and I’m not in any mood to suffer buffoons or cowardly insults.
csimon, let me add my condolences to those expressed by others. I have nothing but sympathy for those who worked hard, played by the rules, exercised reasonable prudence, and nevertheless got screwed.
Oh, dear, I’ve made you cross again, but I can’t help noticing that the hapless csimon is the very quiddity of your faction’s gullible pieties and nescient submission to authority. Blind deference to your President who is ‘privy’ to this and that and who ‘keeps you safe.’ Aping an ill-defined clique of the ‘wealthiest people’ and the ‘top’ hedge funds. Are we beginning to see a pattern here? You will continue to be duped until you find it in yourself to stop kowtowing to your designated betters.
csimon: I’d also like to express my condolences. I don’t know what to say, other than that although you said earlier that you weren’t wealthy by most standards, since you were traveling in those circles you were probably a good deal wealthier than I am.
Nevertheless, I don’t subscribe to the class envy that seems to be rampant in large segments of American society today. I don’t resent people who are richer than I am. Therefore I take no pleasure in your misfortune.
That’s small comfort, I realize. I hope things work out for you.
“Are we beginning to see a pattern here?”
Madoff, Soros and the true history of the Quantum Fund, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae all thru the 90’s, The U.N., Al Gore and the Global Warming crowd… talk about slow torture… Hyman, people like you are just shallow ingrates, only a fool would neglect to recognize the profound message intrinsic in the warm welcome and sendoff our servicemen in Baghdad and Afghanistan just gave George Bush…
No pierre, you have not “made us cross again”. Your self righteous myopia shows a lack of both understanding and human grace. csimon was not complaining or seeking sympathy–he was simply relating facts.
You, on the other hand, seem to enjoy wallowing in Schadenfreude just because someone sees the world differently than you. Weighing your posts against his it is clear that you seek to look better and wiser by diminishing others; this is an action bereft of the most basic of decencies.
Finally, on your posts, William Hazlitt had them in mind years ago when he wrote: “I hate anything that occupies more space than it is worth… I hate to see a parcel of big words without anything in them.”
It’s simply a question of learning from your mistakes. No one actually wants to. If you’ve really just ruined your entire family, one would think this might be an opportune time to take stock. Examine your preconceptions, keep from getting gulled next time, what? Goes for all of you who wonder why your mites have shriveled up. It’s because you swallow all your masters’ shite. Reciting party slogans in extremis like that, you might as well wear DIDDLE ME on a sandwich board.
Pierre, you are a fool, and a stupid one at that as you well exhibit yourself, with your vacuous words designed to insult rather than have meaning. Enough words wasted.
As to all who express their thoughts for my misfortune, I thank you for taking the time to do so.
Ricki, while I thank you for your thoughts, I also should add that I would never presume to know your financial situation, nor should you presume to know mine based upon the financial advisor to whom I had entrusted my life savings. I worked very hard for many years, deprived myself of most ordinary indulgences (simple things like vacations and travel, a modern television, or a cell phone et al) that most others take for granted. I’ve always had what might be an irrational fear re: future financial security so I early on fixed my sights on making sure I took care of that. My goal was to buy a home and pay it off, and accumulate some funds so that I could retire and live securely with health care covered. I live quite modestly by most people’s standards, and have always done so.
Contrary to your assumption, I don’t and never have “traveled” in wealthy circles, though I do happen to know some people who are very successful — yes, one might say wealthy — from past experience, like school and the area in which I grew up. It certainly didn’t make me special, nor my life different. Just for purposes of clarification, I came to Madoff thru my father whose ladyfriend had a friend who had a friend who recommended him highly. One doesn’t automatically hobnob in wealthy circles because one has a money manager in common . That’s a rather simplistic and erroneous conclusion.
The point is that even the best laid plans can be disrupted. On the up side, because I did manage by planning and scrimping and saving to buy and pay off a home, I am not destitute. I’ll have to sell my home and move to an area where the cost of living is lower, and I will have to return to work which I had not anticipated at this point in my life. But I have no debts, and I’ll do what I must now. And I’ll be just fine. Just less a few comforts, and back to rebuiding security for old age if I’m fortunate enough to get there.
Things could be a whole lot worse. There are plenty of people who have been wiped out who have always lived for, thru and with their money, and can’t imagine life without “travelling” in rarified circles. After a few condolences they will probably be shunned by former friends and of necessity build a different kind of life. Money is a funny thing, and the loss thereof does let you know who your real friends are.
It’s because you swallow all your masters’ shite.
neo, not to belabor this, but no American in history has ever referred to “shite.”
[from neo-neocon: yes, by this and many other signs “pierre” has revealed his troll status.]
csimon: Sorry for my erroneous assumptions about you. Actually, I guess I am pretty well-off, since I inherited my father’s house. It’s a 50-year old suburban house, which is smaller than many more modern houses, but it’s paid for. So I’m very fortunate in that regard, and I don’t have any debts either. I’ve never even had a credit card, because I’ve known a few people who got into trouble with credit cards and that scared me off.
I am terribly sorry about your misfortune. That’s what it is–misfortune.
A lot of people will blame the victims only so that they can reassure themselves that it couldn’t happen to them, but of course it could.
I came to Madoff thru my father whose ladyfriend had a friend who had a friend who recommended him highly.
I don’t know many people who could turn down a recommendation like that; unless they were spoiled brats who don’t honor their fathers, then you end up like Pierre.
Things could be a whole lot worse. There are plenty of people who have been wiped out who have always lived for, thru and with their money, and can’t imagine life without “travelling” in rarified circles. After a few condolences they will probably be shunned by former friends and of necessity build a different kind of life. Money is a funny thing, and the loss thereof does let you know who your real friends are.
That kind of perspective is hard won and worth many fortunes. If you can maintain it, you are “travelling” in the most rarified circles.
I’ve had some misfortunes in my life, but I’ve gained intangibles.
There are no pockets in a shroud anyhow….
Makes me think if “If” by Rudyard Kipling:
“If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;”
They gotta rename “Ponzi Scheme” the “Maddoff Scheme”. That’s what I’m going to call it.
Ponzi was a piker compared to Mad Bernie Madoff. Bernie beat him by a few orders of magnitude.
If Bernie were any kind of honorable man, he would commit Seppuku
But he’s not an honorable man. He’ll die like a lost dog.
His obituary and biography will always include: “Former chairman of NASDAQ known primarily for recently bilking hundreds of trusting investors” Hahahaha!
OK, I’m done thread-hogging…. for a while….
…how Bush snookered you people into wrecking your economy…
I’d be blamin’ Congress first. And I’d be agreein’ with Ymarksar that Bush’s primary sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people.
He also didn’t fight back. he let the Kos and HuffPos have their fun, which has cost us all alot of standing worldwide. Like the wife who tells all of her friends about all of her husband’s faults, and doesn’t understand why her friends don’t like him. They have denigrated us on a daily basis. And now they expect it all to magically be made better. Because they, of course, knew they were lying. But the world didn’t and doesn’t.
But if the world respects ruthless corrupt politicians they will undoubtedly respect the new OPE, BHO.
So very sorry, csimon. We are indeed at a crossroads, aren’t we? Finding out what this nation really is and what it really stands for and what we really believe, and who we can believe in. Shocking revelations in our entire financial sector. It’s a time for great caution. Because we will want to go where it looks safe, and with the one who promises us cushy protection. But that will be the wrong choice.
For what it’s worth, if you have a house – any house – you live better than the richest kings of old. You have light at your fingertips, hot and cold running water – miracles they would have traded their kingdoms to acquire. That’s how I look at it.
Appreciate all the good thoughts from everyone.
And Gray — I am especially fond of the poem “If.” Many, many, many moons ago, for our sixth grade “graduation” we had to memorize that poem. And I loved it, and tho’ some of the words have escaped my aging memory, most of it has stayed with me. In fact, it was alluded to on neo’s site very recently — Oct. 21, I believe. (I recopied the entire poem at the time because it has always been very special to me.) So, indeed you chose very meaningful words that are of great solace.
I’ve had my 3 days of “pity party” and I’m pretty much done. Only choice is to face reality and deal with whatever comes.
And tho’ I’m not ready for a shroud quite yet, you’re quite right — no pockets (and no entitlements to those I and my father will leave behind whenever “whenever” comes. Am afraid there are some in my family who counted chickens before they hatched (as gruesome as that is, isn’t it?) Oh, well…….
Again much thanks for all those thoughts……..
I heard some speculation today that Madoff probably couldn’t have managed this all by himself for all this time.
If it was all about to blow up (as a Ponzi scheme is apt to do sooner or later) and this thing with his family turning him in was just another ruse to protect them — even perhaps he has already bestowed funds on them, with a story made up that he got caught before being able to do so. That story sounded somewhat reasonable at first, but I’m not so sure he’s not more clever than that.
After all, he is an old guy, probably wouldn’t even serve out his time before dying. If he didn’t have a final scheme worked out for this eventuality, I’d be surprised.
Hope they take them all down, if there are any more people involved.
I think if he’d been busted by surprise, I’d be less suspicious; it just sounds too convenient, the way it went down for him.
And this quote from an article
many investors said they were impressed with how careful Mr. Madoff had seemed.
“He just didn’t make mistakes,” said Richard Spring, 73, from Boca Raton. “He was just a sound, smart, reasonable guy.”
This guy is the second bomber, or third bomber (reference to terrorist who uses second bomb to kill rescuers that show up after the first)
I mean, I don’t have any thing invested in coming up with conspiracy for this guy trying a final scam, but if i did, I’d sure be motivated to leave no stone unturned.
Condolences csimon. You sound like a real gentleman. I especially appreciate your words about listening to what other people have to say.
I do wonder, though, what prompted you to invest your life savings via a financial advisor, rather than in a bank or, say, government bonds.
Over time, a safe return is seldom more than 5 percent — depending on inflation. A good reference is the 30-Year Treasury bond.
The simplest and perhaps most obvious law of economics is that returns can only be increased by raising risk.
So returns of between 8 percent and 12 percent clearly involve risk. It seems patently reasonably that a person might put some of their savings into vehicles that promised that kind of return.
But to put your entire live savings into anything that claims a minimum return that is higher than the government-guaranteed Treasury bond is rather obviously putting the money at risk.
So something doesn’t quite add up for me.
You skipped cell phones and vacations, but weren’t happy with the risk-free returns of a Treasury bond?
I’m just wondering why someone so careful as to not even indulge in the thoroughly ordinary expense of vacations and cell phones would not exercise similar caution when choosing investments.
The recommendation of a friend of a friend sounds like a perfectly ordinary way for innocent victims to fall prey to a financial scammer. But you have said you’re not a perfectly ordinary person, but, rather, are ultra-conservative.
Lastly, don’t give up just yet. Some reports suggest some investors will get at least part of their money back.
Best of luck to you.
If it was all about to blow up (as a Ponzi scheme is apt to do sooner or later) and this thing with his family turning him in was just another ruse to protect them – even perhaps he has already bestowed funds on them, with a story made up that he got caught before being able to do so. That story sounded somewhat reasonable at first, but I’m not so sure he’s not more clever than that.
That was my first thought as well. The whole story just sounded too convenient: the two sons, supposedly involved in the business, but not in the fraudulent part of it, turn in their father. The old man takes the fall; the sons bask in the glow of selfless nobility.
Well, maybe. We’re all innocent until proven guilty, but I wasn’t born yesterday.
csimon, I am saddened to read how you have been affected but encouraged that you have the character and courage to focus on the future and the thing that matters most, which is survival. The world doesn’t pay us to give up, or to dwell on what might have been, or to complain about the injustice of it all. Or I should say, that is a losing strategy for most of us.
Having said that, I suspect we will soon be discussing “disgorgement” in this matter, and we may well find that A fan is right, and the Madoffs belong in the class of the Rigas family of Adelphia fame. The question of how far to go in seeking reparations in such a matter poses interesting ethical and intellectual challenges.
The paraphrase from Balzac is, “Behind every fortune there is a great crime.” That isn’t always true, but sometimes it is.
Agreed that the way it came down seems rather choreographed by Madoff, to protect sons for one thing. Only time will tell. Maybe.
I also am among those who don’t believe he could have pulled this off for as long as he did, to the degree that he did, as a single individual. As I mentioned in earlier posts, there were hundreds of statements (if not thousands) to print and mail ea. month, dividend distribution checks to cut and send out, redemption checks, et al.
As for choosing to put all our savings in one place — well, hindsight is wonderfully informative. Fact is, today, most people with significant amount of cash that should be “working” for them (i.e. earning), engage a financial advisor to do just that:…i.e. to determine optimal plan for investments with minimal risk — or rather, the risk desired by clients — which often depends on their point in life. For instance, younger people can afford more risk as they have more working years ahead of them, while older people closer to retirement should generally look toward safer but steady returns.
In answer to Logern’s thoughts re: alternative investments, just stashing money in the bank, etc. — with interest rates low, your return on your money is so low that it is not the best use of your money. Once you net out fees, maintenance charges and such against any “teaser” interest offered to induce one to deposit, the result is negligible.
As it happens, for many years we did invest in municiple (tax-free bonds). If face value of bonds was even 4%, but you could buy them at discount (depending on the state of the bond market), you could reap an effective higher yield which was satisfactory. However, as interest rates have been reduced over the last couple of decades, there were fewer and fewer bonds available — with acceptable risk for such investment. For instance, CA has issued billions in bonds because they are so cash-strapped, but the ratings on their bonds is quite low. Would you want to loan any money to that state as it just perpetuates it’s budget overages and dives deeper into red ink? Indeed the objective is to maximize return with minimal risk, and Madoff seemed to offer this — IF he would even take your money. He was a very clever in that he created a “mystique,” if you will, by limiting the funds that he would accept, and you had to have an “in” to even be considered. Also, as mentioned in previous posts, my family pooled our resources to just meet his minimum account requirements. Very clever indeed. In addition, he had built a blue ribbon book of clients, which was the best advertising one can have in his business.
The reason we are not completely destitute, is precisely because of our conservative outlook; our careful purchase of our homes — and using available funds to pay off mortgages as available, and as was reasonable after running the numbers re: interest rates (i.e. weighing the average rate one can earn on one’s money vs. the existing interest rate on your mortgage loan). I currently live in NYC; even in a depressed economy, there is finite space w/ high desirablility, so real estate purchase vs. renting was a good bet to increase in value vs. decreases which are currently more prevalent in more suburban areas. We also invested in life insurance which built cash value. As a result, I can cash in the policy to tide me over. In addition, with my hyper-fear of loss of security, I maintained a separate securities account which I planned to use for improvements to my property. I procrastinated (and took substantial ribbing from family and friends) because I wasn’t comfortable without a cash (or securities that could be readily liquidated) cushion for emergencies. That has proved to be a huge asset in my current situation. In essence, I am much more fortunate than many others, as I have funds to tide me over without falling prey to those purchasers who look to make a killing in forced sales of assets (particularly major assets like homes) which are all too common these days in the current economy. My savings were somewhat diversified, even if the majority of my savings was lost in this scam.
Finally, I would remind those that seem to believe Mr. Madoff had some fly-by-night scam that duped many greedy, naive folks, that this is not at all the case. And I say this not out of any personal defensiveness, but to just state the facts. This man had a solid reputation for more than 30 years, with many many successful investors and satisfied clients. I doubt there are many of you out there who have financial advisors or money managers who have such solid references. Even the most cautious investors were unable to find any evidence of malfeasance. That is precisely why this entire affair IS so shocking and is rocking the financial world — even above and beyond the mortgage crisis. There are many banks who had funds invested with Madoff, and his investors extended beyond U.S. shores. There is no conceivable way that a prospective client could — or would — commission an independent audit of Madoff’s entire operations. The talking heads on television who state that investors received a specific and constant rate of return each and every month, year after year don’t know what they are talking about. (Realize no specific information has been released to anyone; the SEC and FBI are just beginning to investigate reams of records spanning decades. Any pronouncements by pundits is conjecture, not fact.) It is not known how much of funds under his guardianship were lost in the market; how much was taken out by Madoff under the guise of management fees, or how far the “Ponzi scheme” extended — i.e. how much money was taken from newer clients’ funds to pay dividends or redemptions to older clients.
Certainly there is a lesson to be learned here, but, at present, it is not specifically ascertainable. Unfortunately, “T” an early commenter today, who is in the financial businesses, was right when he spoke about the chilling effect the Madoff scam has on all investors at every economic level. This is unfortunate because professional financial advisors and money managers do perform a service. No matter how well versed in finance an investor might be, the professional is privy to a wealth of opportunities (no pun intended), in-depth knowledge of appropriate risk for various investors, and an optimal investment plan based on investors’ individual needs.
Hyman Rosen, that was a fair response to my complaint that you were off topic. You may have taken us farther afield, but it was indeed not you who started our wandering. As to lying and torture, there are a series of distinctions that are getting muddled. There is some difference between what the AP reports and what Sen. Levin said; between what Sen Levin says and what the report says; between what the report says and the original accusations were, and so on back down the line. I think the report is indeed condemning of some the the administration’s actions. That is not the same as a universal condemnation, nor is it a justification that any previous accusation was accurate. I am one who believes that we should have held to a higher standard – closer to a Lindsay Graham standard – from the start, and that Bush and Rumsfeld went too far. This is because people down the line will err in the direction of less adherence to rules, so it is best to make the original rules tight. That is indeed what happened. That is a far cry from claiming that Bush said “Let’s torture the bastards. Who’ll know?” which is close to what your accusation is. Leadership is not so simple as you are suggesting here.
People should note that pierre’s use of his vocabulary is subtly wrong. I applaud people attempting to stretch their expressive abilities, and while doing so, folks sometimes misstep. Repeated missteps with uncommon words suggests an attempt to impress and cow others, however. In particular, “quiddity” and “nescient” are close but wrong. Don’t be intimidated – he’s overreaching. (My wife was the previous record-holder on the MAT, pierre, and I know a few words myself. Make sure the gun is loaded before you pull the trigger.)
As to whether we should re-examine our premises here, pierre, you seem quite certain that we do not. That your views have been vindicated by events seems obvious to you, and you wonder that others do not see it as well. You conclude that they must be willfully stupid. There is another possibility – that you have chosen your data according to confirmation bias. We are all susceptible to such things; most of us find it wise to take a personal inventory before making such accusations.
There is no conceivable way that a prospective client could – or would – commission an independent audit of Madoff’s entire operations.
Why not? And what about the rating agencies? Isn’t there money to be made in monitoring the reliability of investment funds? I’m a complete outsider when it comes to these matters, but from what I can gather the dismal performance of rating agencies played a decisive role in the creation of the subprime crisis (which played such a role in the current credit crisis, as we now all know).
That all of this is possible in the early 21st century blows my mind. A few years ago I read Trollope’s “The Way We Live Now,” and he could have been describing our times. In this age of financial fraud and crisis I really recommend it.
csimon, I am late to the post. However, I too wish to add that I am most sorry to hear you were involved in this unfortunate situation.
You sir, are a class act. I wish you great things.
Pierre, what you have just written makes as much sense as “Twas brilling on the Slithy Toves”. It sounds like it may mean something but I’m not sure what exactly. Please elucidate.
csimon: You might not be entirely lost–
U.S. District Judge Louis L. Stanton ordered that clients of Madoff’s private investment business seek relief under a federal statute created to rescue cheated investors. Stanton also ordered that business be liquidated under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy court and named attorney Irvin H. Picard as trustee to oversee that process.
Stanton signed the order after the Securities Investor Protection Corporation asked that steps be taken to protect investors in the scheme, which has ensnared several major banks and prominent figures as victims and could result in as much as $50 billion in losses.
Congress created the SIPC in 1970 to protect investors when a brokerage firm fails and cash and securities are missing from accounts. Funds can be used to satisfy the remaining claims of each customer up to a maximum of $500,000. The figure includes a maximum of up to $100,000 on claims for cash.
Oh, and remember, it’s a “Madoff Scheme” now. He should eclipse Ponzi in infamy.
csimon, I am so sorry for what has happened to you. You obviously did the right things for your financial future. Unfortunately, as to many others out there, a maximum con man took you for a sucker. I know you can, somehow, rebuild again, and I’m sure you will. But what Madoff did is unforgivable.
He betrayed your trust, and that of many people. That is even worse than losing money, IMHO.
I was a bit concerned when I first began to read articles out there about his crimes. But last night, when I read the names of the many financial institutions, American and foreign, and charities that have been affected by his scam (that means good works that will no longer be delivered because of the act of one evil man), my jaw just dropped. “My goodness! Recession? This man may well cause a financial depression!” After this, who in the world is going to trust an American financial institution? He was “reputable”. His reputation was his biggest currency… and his greatest poison. And you were bit by his fangs.
There is this little Brazilian wisecrack that I learned while in college, “If you owe a hundred thousand, your bank owns you. If you owe a hundred million, you own the bank.” Madoff now owns all of the people he has betrayed, including you. You and others must demand that he pays for his crimes with his fortunes, his freedom and the rest of his life, down to the last penny and breath. Only then you can rid of the chains that tie you all to him and his treason.
At first, I thought that the Feds would take care of his punishment. But now I realize that jail time and destitution will not be the ultimate punishment for him. If anything gives me assurance, it is the fact that he will spend the rest of his days… alone.
Take comfort in that, csimon.
You know, until last week, I was seriously considering the possibility of investing some of an inheritance I received last August in the stock market. But after all that has happened in the past few months, I wonder if the coil-filled inside of my bedroom mattress will be the better financial house…
Misery loves company.
Anyone checked their 401k lately?
Mine’s back to where it was in 2006.
My wife’s savings have lost some 30% of their value, without requiring any criminal involvement. We’re also observant (but not Orthodox) Jews living in NYC, sending our son to a Jewish day school, so I expect we’re going to be feeling some severe fallout from the mess left behind in the foundations and endowments. (My own savings are safe – I have been in CDs and money market funds for several years now, precisely because I knew that with Bush as president, the country was headed for disaster. But being married means share and share alike.)
By the way, since Kipling was mentioned, let me offer a cautionary excerpt from A Pict Song for all of you so fond of American empire:
Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on–that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.
We are the Little Folk–we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you’ll see
How we can drag down the State!
We are the worm in the wood!
We are the rot at the root!
We are the taint in the blood!
We are the thorn in the foot!
csimon,
Very sorry to hear about your unfortunate loss. Don’t know how old you are, but don’t despair completely. I invested most of my retirement IRA with a “master of the universe” investment manager. This man had a big reputation and an impressive record. But unlike Madoff, his operation was transparent and you could look at your investments on his website. When you are entrusting a financial guru with your assets you tend to say, “Hmmm, that stock doesn’t make sense, but, hey, he must know what he’s doing.” Yeah, he lost 50% of my money in a big market sell off just like this one. Suddenly, I no longer trusted that he knew what the heck he was doing. I decided to take control of what was left. Yes, it meant educating myself and a lot of hard work and nail biting, but I built my IRA back to where it had been and then some. I’ve lost some in this sell off, but no where near 40-50%. What I learned from my experience with the “master of the universe” was that no one cares about your money as much as you do. If you aren’t willing to do the work to know how to invest in stocks and bonds then just put it into laddered CDs so you are always getting the best interest rates currently available. Become an expert on interest rate cycles if nothing else.
As Gray points out you may get some of your investment back. I hope so. It would give you a chunk of capital to work your way back.
You are a classy guy with a good head on your shoulders so I’m sure you will do okay as time goes on. Good luck!
My wife’s savings have lost some 30% of their value, without requiring any criminal involvement.
That’s where I’m at.
Please: in the “once in a hundred years credit tsunami” (as Al Greenspan said) to lose only 30% is great.
But now I’m buying into a cheap market! Now I may have a chance at retiring before I’m 80!
Besides, Hyman, how can America still be an Evil Empire now that Obama is in charge? What will it take for you to stop despising your own country?
Hyman, I might remind you that America had no interest in Empire or being the World’s Police Force, but we were unwillingly placed in that position after WWI by the Progessives. The Fabians were supporters of Wilsonian democracy.
Of course not. Hyman is responding to a mythology, a narrative about America, as evidenced by his choice of illustrative song. There doesn’t need to be much evidence for mythology: someone just has to say “empire,” and then other empires can be dragged in with the assurance that “it’s always this way.” Counter-evidence is useless. Virtually any evidence can be used to confirm such narratives. Those who disagree are dismissed as simply unable to see the obvious.
Mr. Rosen, a serious question that I ask for spiritual rather than political reasons: do you ever question your premises? What do you think Mishnah is for?
I didn’t say “evil”, just a caution about the perils of asymmetric warfare and attempts to remake other countries in our image. And I don’t despise my country, just it’s Republican leaders. It’s going to be a while before I get around to whinging about it’s Democratic ones.
As far as investing with a “master of the universe”, mathematical models in finance usually begin with the efficient market hypothesis, that all knowledge is incorporated into the current price of an instrument, so masters can’t do better than anyone else. Track records aren’t really of much use – given a large enough starting pool of managers, some will achieve a great track record through nothing more than luck. You can’t rely on the old standby of “buy low, sell high” any more than you can rely on wagering at a “hot” craps table – you don’t know whether the table will continue to be hot, and whether the price is at its high or low.
What REALLY burns me is that this happened to my 86-yr. old father, who has lived the most straight arrow life (conservative, no cutting corners — not worth the risk of trouble), pillar of his community, and philanthropically extremely generous — proportionately much more so than many in his community that are much wealthier than him. But more than anything else, he’s just a good person who really is one of those few who truly has lead an exemplary life. He worked so hard, put three of us through college, and should be allowed to enjoy his remaining years in the comfort for which he carefully prepared. THAT breaks my heart and makes me crazy when I think of it. The family will pull together and somehow make it work. I don’t need much — an indulgence here or there but 9/11 cured me of the importance of “stuff.” That event brought about a sea change in my life and my perspective.
The other thing that truly upsets me, is the effect this will have on the charitable community. There are many, many important operations that are already devastated. Many had funds directly invested with Madoff, and a huge number relied upon the generosity of many wealthy people who gave generously. That on top of a poor economy, does not bode well at all.
It truly is hard to imagine that one man could do this. I can’t imagine what it was like to live the lie all these years….what he thought — if he did at all — about the damage he did. I can almost understand not having personal sentiment re: hedge funds, bank investments. (tho’ one would think that he might have felt some pangs with regard to those persons who brought the funds to him… In no way do I condone anything he did, but they are faceless entities which might seem just to have an endless supply of money. But individuals!! People! So any friends and relatives! He built a huge part of his book by word of mouth, and knew personally many of his victims. It really is hard to wrap your head around this — much as I had difficulty absorbing the reality that 9/11 presented to us — a portion of humanity with zero regard or respect for life, and the willingness, and desire to continue to outdo themselves by committing ever more murders of innocent people. In a parallel way, this man had no regard for anyone but himself and his family (apparently — thus far, all the Madoffs have maintained the innocence of the sons, Madoff’s brother, and niece).
Clumsy-footed stepping is exactly what we did in Iraq. As for Mishnah, funny you should mention that. A great deal of the discussion in the Talmud is attempts to reconcile the presumed inerrant yet seemingly contradictory pronouncements of the Tana’im. Inerrancy is a horrible assumption to make, and your inability to give it up must be causing you all manner of psychic distress now that your leader’s legacy has been formally rejected by the voters.
I didn’t say “evil”, just a caution about the perils of asymmetric warfare…..
Please don’t use terms you don’t understand; it just makes you dumb(er).
Clumsy-footed stepping is exactly what we did in Iraq.
I’m sure you could have done much, much better with your incredible wealth of experience in conventional warfare, unconventional warfare, covert operations, special operations, geo-politics, Arab culture and finance.
You’re just throwing rocks like I was on the “long distance rower” thread. It feels good, it’s fun, but I couldn’t come close to what he did.
You’re not qualified to brush the dust off my combat boots.
You can’t rely on the old standby of “buy low, sell high” any more than you can rely on wagering at a “hot” craps table – you don’t know whether the table will continue to be hot, and whether the price is at its high or low.
I’ve got 25 years before retirement. If the stock market isn’t up by then, we’ll have bigger problems than “the stock market”.
That’s why I also invest in guns, ammunition, skills and kids.
I’ll buy cheap stocks for the next 5-7 years….
“….and your inability to give it up must be causing you all manner of psychic distress now that your leader’s legacy has been formally rejected by the voters.”
Hyman Rosen
1. I don’t remember Bush running for office lately and being “formally rejected.”
2. Just in the last century, how many Presidents were popular at the end of their terms? None in my lifetime — unless you count the martyrdom of John F. Kennedy due to his assassination, and we know how well he did when he was in office: Cuban Missilie Crisis, Bay of Pigs, Kruschev….
3. Hyman, you know you are correct in one thing:
“Inerrancy is a horrible assumption to make…
It’s a dangerous assumption or presumption — and you might do well to heed your own words.
i. I would have done much worse. Fortunately, I was not in charge. Unfortunately, those who were in charge weren’t any good at it. Perhaps if they were, they would have not gone in at all. Remember Gulf War I, where we did not march into Baghdad?
iv. Accusing me of believing in inerrancy is pretty odd. I think they’re all bozos. Some just manage to reach stunning heights of stupidity, evil, and incompetence.
Hyman,
If you have a room full of flies you have 2 choices, you can chase them all over the room with a fly swatter, or you can lay down a piece of fly paper. Baghdad was the fly paper.
George S. Patton is quoted as having said “Never let the enemy choose the Battlefield”.
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Most people are easily manipulated by the masters in propaganda, deception, and psychological manipulation.
Just look at our last election.
Bush’s one sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people. Which pissed a lot of people, cause they wanted something to believe in and Bush gave them nothing but the truth, which wasn’t even coated in sugar.
It’s been barely whispered that Madoff has been contributing $25,000 per cycle to the DNC Senatorial Election Committee.
Here is the detailed description of Bush’s lies about torture.
Well, here you have one reader who is a Madoff victim. Not wealthy by most standards, my family pooled our resources to meet his minimum acceptance standard. We were referred by several family friends who are enormously wealthy. Unlike many hedge funds, who by definition are entities who invest in high risk deals for ever record-breaking profits, who invested with Madoff, our life-savings are gone. My father is 86 years old, worked extremely hard until just a few years ago, lived and spent conservatively his entire life, with the objective of having enough savings to make his last years comfortable. We’ve given generously to charity all along, believing that it is right to do so. I have lived similarly having learned from him. We had only invested with Mr. Madoff a couple of years ago, and received a steady, reasonable return on our investment — nothing more than any one would expect upon placing money with a professional finacial advisor instead of handling investments oneself.
So much for playing by all the rules all my life, as did my father. So much for foregoing indulgences, travel, and so forth, in the name of having security in old age, and provisions for illness (especially now, G-d Forbid!)
It’s easy to be shocked — especially when untouched by scandal. And Ymarsakar, even quite bright and cautious people fall prey to the best of scammers.
I would ask why…….except I know the answer. Life is not fair. And there is no way to make it so. Somehow we’ll manage to get food on the table, and a roof over our heads. It won’t be the same as planned, and there will be no compensation for putting off those rewards which one can usually expect for hard work.
We can live with good conscience, which might be consolation if we thought that Mr. Madoff might be suffering regrets from his actions. But I don’t think people like him do so. He operated in this manner for decades and decades, enriching himself and his family. In fact, the coup de gras was that with the last $200-300 million he had left in the firms accounts, he had planned to distribute it to family, friends and employees, before turning himself in. His wife and children should only live richly, while he rots in jail. (And no doubt, at the age of 70, hardship will be considered, and he will never serve his full sentence).
csimon: I’m so sorry to hear you were a victim of this. From what you say, it sounds as though there were no signs that there was any special risk in the investment.
P.S. Hyman Rosen, when you are charged with the safety and protection of the entire population of the United States, and when you are privy to all of the real threats which exist constantly — many of which are not leaked by an irresponsible press, and you which you learn nothing about… When you have made the hard decisions that are not popular with those who find certain actions philosophically repugnant, even when they have kept us safe for seven years, yourself included, then you might think about getting off your moral high horse, and toning down your holier-than-thou attitude, let alone your facility for judging much of that which you know little save for the writings of others with an agenda similar to your own. Enough already!
I, too, am Jewish and my family were all from Eastern Europe — specifically, Poland and Russia. I am well versed in the history of the holocaust and the persecutions going back thousands and thousands of years.
What takes place with prisoners who have been captured on battlefields fighting to do us harm; prisoners who have been caught planning and carrying out plots to kill as many people as they can in one fell swoop — is as different from what occurred to innocents during the Holocaust as anything possibly could be. Similarly, what was done at Abu Graib, for a handful of immature, out-of-line soldiers’ obscene amusement bears no relation to unpleasant interrogation techniques designed to uncover information to protect us, and often many citizens of other countries as well. The people who order this, who carry this out and do so in extreme effort to afford us the greatest protection are not evil Marquises de Sade who are inveterate sadists!
Wake up and look at the real world! Get yourself to the library and look up all the horrific and gory photographs of Mumbai, 9/11, bombings in Iraq and Afghanistan, at embassies around the world, soldiers’ barracks…and other heinous attacks ad nauseum. And wake up and realize that those are soon to be dwarfed as the threat of nuclear attack swiftly becomes a reality.
It is one thing to say never again about the holocaust, even as ethnic cleansing still occurs in other parts of the world. THAT is a horror. But if trying to protect us from harm requires unsavory conditions, I’ll settle for not wanting to know the details and pray only that those who must do this things — which you seem to assume are fun for them — are able to attain their goal, and at the same time, be thankful that there are those who are willing to assume this nasty but unfortunately necessary business, and pray they obtain useful results.
http://www.floppingaces.net/2008/12/15/gov-bill-richardson-democrat-target-of-grand-jury-in-pay-for-play-investigation/
Democrat culture of corruption and pay for play???
Hyman
Where is the order directing people to “torture”.
The piece is “opinion”. Critical Thinking 101 would teach that.
It’s nice for people to question the motives of Bush but I applaud his tough stance on gettting information out of people BENT on killing to advance their political agenda.
Let me question your motives Hyman. Do you want America to succeed?
This isn’t a real debate. This is YOU and those journalists (journalism is dead) questioning people’s motives.
The President has said repeatedly that America does not torture.
The ISSUE Hyman (yes – because you do not know the issue) is whether or not waterboarding is/should be considered torture.
Grown men can disagree on that question but you cannot go from that disagreement to questioning somebody else’s motives and still be HONEST. You are dishonest once you learn the issue and ignore it.
Checkmate.
neo, thanks for your words. There were no signs. The return varied basically between 8% — 12% (obviously not the high since the financial crash) — Basically it was what one would expect from a top money manager who for decades invested the money of some of the wealthiest people and top hedge funds and institutional funds.
Which is what makes it such a shock to the financial world. And the fact that he has kept this up for some 20-30 yrs! Both my father and are are financial astute, as well as extremely conservative as I mentioned above. We weren’t looking for any gifts (i.e. a ridiculous return unavailable to all but privileged) and didn’t receive any such thing. Our total investment amounted to a pittance compared to others’, and as such, in consideration of how much money might actually be gone, and how much might be recoverable, there is very little likelihood of any recovery.
Thanks to our uber-conservativeness — my mortgage was paid off. But in this market, we will likely be open to vultures who would love to make a killing now that we must sell our homes. So, so much for being conservative, honest, and cautious.
I say to everybody out there, be sure to pore over any financial statements on savings and investments, and stick look for safe margins, and security. I did so, but this guy was one slick thief, and many of those much much smarter than I were fooled, too.
csimon,
My heart goes out to you and your family. I am in the financial business myself, and Madoff and experiences like yours devastate investors and make it increasingly difficult for honest advisors to continue helping their clients.
With regard to your response to Hyman Rosen: That isone of the most profound tracts I have read in quite a long time. You seem to have a level head on your shoulders and it is clear that the world is a better place simply because your and your family are in it.
Mazeltov to you!
Hyman Rosen, try to stay on topic. Decent arguments can be offered against your accusation, but would derail this thread.
I was responding to “Bush’s one sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people.” In fact, with his incessant claims of “a few bad apples” he was attempting to deceive people about the fact that torture was being officially authorized. I’m sorry if it’s off-topic to respond to a post that’s off-topic.
Thanks for your words T.
As for Hyman Rosen, yes, your words were off topic, but I would’t quibble with that, nor do I have any problem with an opinion different from my own.
What does irk me, are ignorance, moral platitudes, tired judgements, and holier-than-thou attitudes. My answer probably reflects that fatigue (as do my typos which I apologize for!) and and frustration with those who seem either completely removed from reality, or simply write while refusing to using their G-d-given brains to think. (Nothing personal, of course!)
Hyman wrote, “he was attempting to deceive people about the fact that torture was being officially authorized.”
Again, you did not prove that nor did the WP writer. What you offered was opinions about what Bush ‘attempted’.
Unless you are god – you are not able to do that.
Unless you show the document showing “torture was being officially authorized” then you failed.
In Blagobing’s case. There is proof.
And Ymarsakar, even quite bright and cautious people fall prey to the best of scammers.
They would be included in most people in the end.
No signs …except for that absurd degree of serial correlation in returns, or that Mom and Pop auditor. What is lacking here is what we call la mondanite. Now I understand how Bush snookered you people into wrecking your economy and surrendering your constitution in a fawning panic.
Neo, this is why I assumed this a-hole wasn’t an American.
Pierre, I never, ever, make a comment putting down another reader for their opinion which differs from mine, and, in fact, take great care not to. Further, I can appreciate different points of view when well-supported with fact, and almost always go to links supplied by other commenters to maintain a well-informed viewpoint upon which to base my own opinions.
I also would like to say I find your words — clearly referring to me and other victims of Madoff — to be not only ignorant, but distasteful, and cowardly, as you casually make judgements based on incorrect conjectures made 3 days in hindsight. More so than anything, you reveal more about yourself than you do about those your words are intended to insult.
Madoff is a crook. But all the facts — any facts — are not yet known. And despite our financial misfortune, I still regard myself as lucky to be a citizen of the United States, lucky to have been able to work and save a comfortable amount of money, which is now regrettably likely gone, and lucky to live in a country where I have the opportunity to make more money which I intend to do, lucky that I do not regard myself as the ultimate victim — there are many worse off than me, and many much better off. But I am not one who ascribes to the belief that the govt. should do everything for us, give those who don’t have that which others have earned because it is “unfair.” I don’t believe the govt. should use taxpayer dollars to redress the results of poor judgements of its citizens (like buying houses they can’t afford which might now be in foreclosure — most rental apts. are just fine if that is what one can afford); (similarly, businesses that are run poorly, and are better off in bankruptcy to reorganize instead of throwing money at them which will just enrich the Unions’ pots of gold and ultimately result in business failure again.) In this land where there is more opportunity than anywhere on earth, people need to use it to raise themselves up, instead of carrying chips on their shoulders and whining as children do that things are not fair.
Life is not fair. But those that don’t do for themselves, don’t deserve what they covet. Last time I checked, our Constitution was not designed to make our leader, the President, into Robin Hood. His responsibility is to serve, protect and preserve — and I’m still here, and Pierre, you are too, and you shouldn’t take that for granted these days!
P.S. To all who suffer through my wordy comments today, I apologize for monopolizing space. But my most recent reality (losing to Madoff) has me in rare form, and I’m not in any mood to suffer buffoons or cowardly insults.
csimon, let me add my condolences to those expressed by others. I have nothing but sympathy for those who worked hard, played by the rules, exercised reasonable prudence, and nevertheless got screwed.
Oh, dear, I’ve made you cross again, but I can’t help noticing that the hapless csimon is the very quiddity of your faction’s gullible pieties and nescient submission to authority. Blind deference to your President who is ‘privy’ to this and that and who ‘keeps you safe.’ Aping an ill-defined clique of the ‘wealthiest people’ and the ‘top’ hedge funds. Are we beginning to see a pattern here? You will continue to be duped until you find it in yourself to stop kowtowing to your designated betters.
csimon: I’d also like to express my condolences. I don’t know what to say, other than that although you said earlier that you weren’t wealthy by most standards, since you were traveling in those circles you were probably a good deal wealthier than I am.
Nevertheless, I don’t subscribe to the class envy that seems to be rampant in large segments of American society today. I don’t resent people who are richer than I am. Therefore I take no pleasure in your misfortune.
That’s small comfort, I realize. I hope things work out for you.
“Are we beginning to see a pattern here?”
Madoff, Soros and the true history of the Quantum Fund, Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae all thru the 90’s, The U.N., Al Gore and the Global Warming crowd… talk about slow torture… Hyman, people like you are just shallow ingrates, only a fool would neglect to recognize the profound message intrinsic in the warm welcome and sendoff our servicemen in Baghdad and Afghanistan just gave George Bush…
No pierre, you have not “made us cross again”. Your self righteous myopia shows a lack of both understanding and human grace. csimon was not complaining or seeking sympathy–he was simply relating facts.
You, on the other hand, seem to enjoy wallowing in Schadenfreude just because someone sees the world differently than you. Weighing your posts against his it is clear that you seek to look better and wiser by diminishing others; this is an action bereft of the most basic of decencies.
Finally, on your posts, William Hazlitt had them in mind years ago when he wrote: “I hate anything that occupies more space than it is worth… I hate to see a parcel of big words without anything in them.”
It’s simply a question of learning from your mistakes. No one actually wants to. If you’ve really just ruined your entire family, one would think this might be an opportune time to take stock. Examine your preconceptions, keep from getting gulled next time, what? Goes for all of you who wonder why your mites have shriveled up. It’s because you swallow all your masters’ shite. Reciting party slogans in extremis like that, you might as well wear DIDDLE ME on a sandwich board.
Pierre, you are a fool, and a stupid one at that as you well exhibit yourself, with your vacuous words designed to insult rather than have meaning. Enough words wasted.
As to all who express their thoughts for my misfortune, I thank you for taking the time to do so.
Ricki, while I thank you for your thoughts, I also should add that I would never presume to know your financial situation, nor should you presume to know mine based upon the financial advisor to whom I had entrusted my life savings. I worked very hard for many years, deprived myself of most ordinary indulgences (simple things like vacations and travel, a modern television, or a cell phone et al) that most others take for granted. I’ve always had what might be an irrational fear re: future financial security so I early on fixed my sights on making sure I took care of that. My goal was to buy a home and pay it off, and accumulate some funds so that I could retire and live securely with health care covered. I live quite modestly by most people’s standards, and have always done so.
Contrary to your assumption, I don’t and never have “traveled” in wealthy circles, though I do happen to know some people who are very successful — yes, one might say wealthy — from past experience, like school and the area in which I grew up. It certainly didn’t make me special, nor my life different. Just for purposes of clarification, I came to Madoff thru my father whose ladyfriend had a friend who had a friend who recommended him highly. One doesn’t automatically hobnob in wealthy circles because one has a money manager in common . That’s a rather simplistic and erroneous conclusion.
The point is that even the best laid plans can be disrupted. On the up side, because I did manage by planning and scrimping and saving to buy and pay off a home, I am not destitute. I’ll have to sell my home and move to an area where the cost of living is lower, and I will have to return to work which I had not anticipated at this point in my life. But I have no debts, and I’ll do what I must now. And I’ll be just fine. Just less a few comforts, and back to rebuiding security for old age if I’m fortunate enough to get there.
Things could be a whole lot worse. There are plenty of people who have been wiped out who have always lived for, thru and with their money, and can’t imagine life without “travelling” in rarified circles. After a few condolences they will probably be shunned by former friends and of necessity build a different kind of life. Money is a funny thing, and the loss thereof does let you know who your real friends are.
neo, not to belabor this, but no American in history has ever referred to “shite.”
[from neo-neocon: yes, by this and many other signs “pierre” has revealed his troll status.]
csimon: Sorry for my erroneous assumptions about you. Actually, I guess I am pretty well-off, since I inherited my father’s house. It’s a 50-year old suburban house, which is smaller than many more modern houses, but it’s paid for. So I’m very fortunate in that regard, and I don’t have any debts either. I’ve never even had a credit card, because I’ve known a few people who got into trouble with credit cards and that scared me off.
I am terribly sorry about your misfortune. That’s what it is–misfortune.
A lot of people will blame the victims only so that they can reassure themselves that it couldn’t happen to them, but of course it could.
I came to Madoff thru my father whose ladyfriend had a friend who had a friend who recommended him highly.
I don’t know many people who could turn down a recommendation like that; unless they were spoiled brats who don’t honor their fathers, then you end up like Pierre.
Things could be a whole lot worse. There are plenty of people who have been wiped out who have always lived for, thru and with their money, and can’t imagine life without “travelling” in rarified circles. After a few condolences they will probably be shunned by former friends and of necessity build a different kind of life. Money is a funny thing, and the loss thereof does let you know who your real friends are.
That kind of perspective is hard won and worth many fortunes. If you can maintain it, you are “travelling” in the most rarified circles.
I’ve had some misfortunes in my life, but I’ve gained intangibles.
There are no pockets in a shroud anyhow….
Makes me think if “If” by Rudyard Kipling:
“If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breath a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: “Hold on”;”
They gotta rename “Ponzi Scheme” the “Maddoff Scheme”. That’s what I’m going to call it.
Ponzi was a piker compared to Mad Bernie Madoff. Bernie beat him by a few orders of magnitude.
If Bernie were any kind of honorable man, he would commit Seppuku
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seppuku
But he’s not an honorable man. He’ll die like a lost dog.
His obituary and biography will always include: “Former chairman of NASDAQ known primarily for recently bilking hundreds of trusting investors” Hahahaha!
OK, I’m done thread-hogging…. for a while….
…how Bush snookered you people into wrecking your economy…
I’d be blamin’ Congress first. And I’d be agreein’ with Ymarksar that Bush’s primary sin and the cause of his low popularity ratings is that didn’t even try to deceive people.
He also didn’t fight back. he let the Kos and HuffPos have their fun, which has cost us all alot of standing worldwide. Like the wife who tells all of her friends about all of her husband’s faults, and doesn’t understand why her friends don’t like him. They have denigrated us on a daily basis. And now they expect it all to magically be made better. Because they, of course, knew they were lying. But the world didn’t and doesn’t.
But if the world respects ruthless corrupt politicians they will undoubtedly respect the new OPE, BHO.
So very sorry, csimon. We are indeed at a crossroads, aren’t we? Finding out what this nation really is and what it really stands for and what we really believe, and who we can believe in. Shocking revelations in our entire financial sector. It’s a time for great caution. Because we will want to go where it looks safe, and with the one who promises us cushy protection. But that will be the wrong choice.
For what it’s worth, if you have a house – any house – you live better than the richest kings of old. You have light at your fingertips, hot and cold running water – miracles they would have traded their kingdoms to acquire. That’s how I look at it.
Appreciate all the good thoughts from everyone.
And Gray — I am especially fond of the poem “If.” Many, many, many moons ago, for our sixth grade “graduation” we had to memorize that poem. And I loved it, and tho’ some of the words have escaped my aging memory, most of it has stayed with me. In fact, it was alluded to on neo’s site very recently — Oct. 21, I believe. (I recopied the entire poem at the time because it has always been very special to me.) So, indeed you chose very meaningful words that are of great solace.
I’ve had my 3 days of “pity party” and I’m pretty much done. Only choice is to face reality and deal with whatever comes.
And tho’ I’m not ready for a shroud quite yet, you’re quite right — no pockets (and no entitlements to those I and my father will leave behind whenever “whenever” comes. Am afraid there are some in my family who counted chickens before they hatched (as gruesome as that is, isn’t it?) Oh, well…….
Again much thanks for all those thoughts……..
I heard some speculation today that Madoff probably couldn’t have managed this all by himself for all this time.
If it was all about to blow up (as a Ponzi scheme is apt to do sooner or later) and this thing with his family turning him in was just another ruse to protect them — even perhaps he has already bestowed funds on them, with a story made up that he got caught before being able to do so. That story sounded somewhat reasonable at first, but I’m not so sure he’s not more clever than that.
After all, he is an old guy, probably wouldn’t even serve out his time before dying. If he didn’t have a final scheme worked out for this eventuality, I’d be surprised.
Hope they take them all down, if there are any more people involved.
I think if he’d been busted by surprise, I’d be less suspicious; it just sounds too convenient, the way it went down for him.
And this quote from an article
many investors said they were impressed with how careful Mr. Madoff had seemed.
“He just didn’t make mistakes,” said Richard Spring, 73, from Boca Raton. “He was just a sound, smart, reasonable guy.”
This guy is the second bomber, or third bomber (reference to terrorist who uses second bomb to kill rescuers that show up after the first)
I mean, I don’t have any thing invested in coming up with conspiracy for this guy trying a final scam, but if i did, I’d sure be motivated to leave no stone unturned.
Condolences csimon. You sound like a real gentleman. I especially appreciate your words about listening to what other people have to say.
I do wonder, though, what prompted you to invest your life savings via a financial advisor, rather than in a bank or, say, government bonds.
Over time, a safe return is seldom more than 5 percent — depending on inflation. A good reference is the 30-Year Treasury bond.
The simplest and perhaps most obvious law of economics is that returns can only be increased by raising risk.
So returns of between 8 percent and 12 percent clearly involve risk. It seems patently reasonably that a person might put some of their savings into vehicles that promised that kind of return.
But to put your entire live savings into anything that claims a minimum return that is higher than the government-guaranteed Treasury bond is rather obviously putting the money at risk.
So something doesn’t quite add up for me.
You skipped cell phones and vacations, but weren’t happy with the risk-free returns of a Treasury bond?
I’m just wondering why someone so careful as to not even indulge in the thoroughly ordinary expense of vacations and cell phones would not exercise similar caution when choosing investments.
The recommendation of a friend of a friend sounds like a perfectly ordinary way for innocent victims to fall prey to a financial scammer. But you have said you’re not a perfectly ordinary person, but, rather, are ultra-conservative.
Lastly, don’t give up just yet. Some reports suggest some investors will get at least part of their money back.
Best of luck to you.
If it was all about to blow up (as a Ponzi scheme is apt to do sooner or later) and this thing with his family turning him in was just another ruse to protect them – even perhaps he has already bestowed funds on them, with a story made up that he got caught before being able to do so. That story sounded somewhat reasonable at first, but I’m not so sure he’s not more clever than that.
That was my first thought as well. The whole story just sounded too convenient: the two sons, supposedly involved in the business, but not in the fraudulent part of it, turn in their father. The old man takes the fall; the sons bask in the glow of selfless nobility.
Well, maybe. We’re all innocent until proven guilty, but I wasn’t born yesterday.
csimon, I am saddened to read how you have been affected but encouraged that you have the character and courage to focus on the future and the thing that matters most, which is survival. The world doesn’t pay us to give up, or to dwell on what might have been, or to complain about the injustice of it all. Or I should say, that is a losing strategy for most of us.
Having said that, I suspect we will soon be discussing “disgorgement” in this matter, and we may well find that A fan is right, and the Madoffs belong in the class of the Rigas family of Adelphia fame. The question of how far to go in seeking reparations in such a matter poses interesting ethical and intellectual challenges.
The paraphrase from Balzac is, “Behind every fortune there is a great crime.” That isn’t always true, but sometimes it is.
Agreed that the way it came down seems rather choreographed by Madoff, to protect sons for one thing. Only time will tell. Maybe.
I also am among those who don’t believe he could have pulled this off for as long as he did, to the degree that he did, as a single individual. As I mentioned in earlier posts, there were hundreds of statements (if not thousands) to print and mail ea. month, dividend distribution checks to cut and send out, redemption checks, et al.
As for choosing to put all our savings in one place — well, hindsight is wonderfully informative. Fact is, today, most people with significant amount of cash that should be “working” for them (i.e. earning), engage a financial advisor to do just that:…i.e. to determine optimal plan for investments with minimal risk — or rather, the risk desired by clients — which often depends on their point in life. For instance, younger people can afford more risk as they have more working years ahead of them, while older people closer to retirement should generally look toward safer but steady returns.
In answer to Logern’s thoughts re: alternative investments, just stashing money in the bank, etc. — with interest rates low, your return on your money is so low that it is not the best use of your money. Once you net out fees, maintenance charges and such against any “teaser” interest offered to induce one to deposit, the result is negligible.
As it happens, for many years we did invest in municiple (tax-free bonds). If face value of bonds was even 4%, but you could buy them at discount (depending on the state of the bond market), you could reap an effective higher yield which was satisfactory. However, as interest rates have been reduced over the last couple of decades, there were fewer and fewer bonds available — with acceptable risk for such investment. For instance, CA has issued billions in bonds because they are so cash-strapped, but the ratings on their bonds is quite low. Would you want to loan any money to that state as it just perpetuates it’s budget overages and dives deeper into red ink? Indeed the objective is to maximize return with minimal risk, and Madoff seemed to offer this — IF he would even take your money. He was a very clever in that he created a “mystique,” if you will, by limiting the funds that he would accept, and you had to have an “in” to even be considered. Also, as mentioned in previous posts, my family pooled our resources to just meet his minimum account requirements. Very clever indeed. In addition, he had built a blue ribbon book of clients, which was the best advertising one can have in his business.
The reason we are not completely destitute, is precisely because of our conservative outlook; our careful purchase of our homes — and using available funds to pay off mortgages as available, and as was reasonable after running the numbers re: interest rates (i.e. weighing the average rate one can earn on one’s money vs. the existing interest rate on your mortgage loan). I currently live in NYC; even in a depressed economy, there is finite space w/ high desirablility, so real estate purchase vs. renting was a good bet to increase in value vs. decreases which are currently more prevalent in more suburban areas. We also invested in life insurance which built cash value. As a result, I can cash in the policy to tide me over. In addition, with my hyper-fear of loss of security, I maintained a separate securities account which I planned to use for improvements to my property. I procrastinated (and took substantial ribbing from family and friends) because I wasn’t comfortable without a cash (or securities that could be readily liquidated) cushion for emergencies. That has proved to be a huge asset in my current situation. In essence, I am much more fortunate than many others, as I have funds to tide me over without falling prey to those purchasers who look to make a killing in forced sales of assets (particularly major assets like homes) which are all too common these days in the current economy. My savings were somewhat diversified, even if the majority of my savings was lost in this scam.
Finally, I would remind those that seem to believe Mr. Madoff had some fly-by-night scam that duped many greedy, naive folks, that this is not at all the case. And I say this not out of any personal defensiveness, but to just state the facts. This man had a solid reputation for more than 30 years, with many many successful investors and satisfied clients. I doubt there are many of you out there who have financial advisors or money managers who have such solid references. Even the most cautious investors were unable to find any evidence of malfeasance. That is precisely why this entire affair IS so shocking and is rocking the financial world — even above and beyond the mortgage crisis. There are many banks who had funds invested with Madoff, and his investors extended beyond U.S. shores. There is no conceivable way that a prospective client could — or would — commission an independent audit of Madoff’s entire operations. The talking heads on television who state that investors received a specific and constant rate of return each and every month, year after year don’t know what they are talking about. (Realize no specific information has been released to anyone; the SEC and FBI are just beginning to investigate reams of records spanning decades. Any pronouncements by pundits is conjecture, not fact.) It is not known how much of funds under his guardianship were lost in the market; how much was taken out by Madoff under the guise of management fees, or how far the “Ponzi scheme” extended — i.e. how much money was taken from newer clients’ funds to pay dividends or redemptions to older clients.
Certainly there is a lesson to be learned here, but, at present, it is not specifically ascertainable. Unfortunately, “T” an early commenter today, who is in the financial businesses, was right when he spoke about the chilling effect the Madoff scam has on all investors at every economic level. This is unfortunate because professional financial advisors and money managers do perform a service. No matter how well versed in finance an investor might be, the professional is privy to a wealth of opportunities (no pun intended), in-depth knowledge of appropriate risk for various investors, and an optimal investment plan based on investors’ individual needs.
Hyman Rosen, that was a fair response to my complaint that you were off topic. You may have taken us farther afield, but it was indeed not you who started our wandering. As to lying and torture, there are a series of distinctions that are getting muddled. There is some difference between what the AP reports and what Sen. Levin said; between what Sen Levin says and what the report says; between what the report says and the original accusations were, and so on back down the line. I think the report is indeed condemning of some the the administration’s actions. That is not the same as a universal condemnation, nor is it a justification that any previous accusation was accurate. I am one who believes that we should have held to a higher standard – closer to a Lindsay Graham standard – from the start, and that Bush and Rumsfeld went too far. This is because people down the line will err in the direction of less adherence to rules, so it is best to make the original rules tight. That is indeed what happened. That is a far cry from claiming that Bush said “Let’s torture the bastards. Who’ll know?” which is close to what your accusation is. Leadership is not so simple as you are suggesting here.
People should note that pierre’s use of his vocabulary is subtly wrong. I applaud people attempting to stretch their expressive abilities, and while doing so, folks sometimes misstep. Repeated missteps with uncommon words suggests an attempt to impress and cow others, however. In particular, “quiddity” and “nescient” are close but wrong. Don’t be intimidated – he’s overreaching. (My wife was the previous record-holder on the MAT, pierre, and I know a few words myself. Make sure the gun is loaded before you pull the trigger.)
As to whether we should re-examine our premises here, pierre, you seem quite certain that we do not. That your views have been vindicated by events seems obvious to you, and you wonder that others do not see it as well. You conclude that they must be willfully stupid. There is another possibility – that you have chosen your data according to confirmation bias. We are all susceptible to such things; most of us find it wise to take a personal inventory before making such accusations.
There is no conceivable way that a prospective client could – or would – commission an independent audit of Madoff’s entire operations.
Why not? And what about the rating agencies? Isn’t there money to be made in monitoring the reliability of investment funds? I’m a complete outsider when it comes to these matters, but from what I can gather the dismal performance of rating agencies played a decisive role in the creation of the subprime crisis (which played such a role in the current credit crisis, as we now all know).
That all of this is possible in the early 21st century blows my mind. A few years ago I read Trollope’s “The Way We Live Now,” and he could have been describing our times. In this age of financial fraud and crisis I really recommend it.
csimon, I am late to the post. However, I too wish to add that I am most sorry to hear you were involved in this unfortunate situation.
You sir, are a class act. I wish you great things.
Pierre, what you have just written makes as much sense as “Twas brilling on the Slithy Toves”. It sounds like it may mean something but I’m not sure what exactly. Please elucidate.
csimon: You might not be entirely lost–
U.S. District Judge Louis L. Stanton ordered that clients of Madoff’s private investment business seek relief under a federal statute created to rescue cheated investors. Stanton also ordered that business be liquidated under the jurisdiction of a bankruptcy court and named attorney Irvin H. Picard as trustee to oversee that process.
Stanton signed the order after the Securities Investor Protection Corporation asked that steps be taken to protect investors in the scheme, which has ensnared several major banks and prominent figures as victims and could result in as much as $50 billion in losses.
Congress created the SIPC in 1970 to protect investors when a brokerage firm fails and cash and securities are missing from accounts. Funds can be used to satisfy the remaining claims of each customer up to a maximum of $500,000. The figure includes a maximum of up to $100,000 on claims for cash.
http://wcbstv.com/business/madoff.ponzi.scheme.2.888036.html
Oh, and remember, it’s a “Madoff Scheme” now. He should eclipse Ponzi in infamy.
csimon, I am so sorry for what has happened to you. You obviously did the right things for your financial future. Unfortunately, as to many others out there, a maximum con man took you for a sucker. I know you can, somehow, rebuild again, and I’m sure you will. But what Madoff did is unforgivable.
He betrayed your trust, and that of many people. That is even worse than losing money, IMHO.
I was a bit concerned when I first began to read articles out there about his crimes. But last night, when I read the names of the many financial institutions, American and foreign, and charities that have been affected by his scam (that means good works that will no longer be delivered because of the act of one evil man), my jaw just dropped. “My goodness! Recession? This man may well cause a financial depression!” After this, who in the world is going to trust an American financial institution? He was “reputable”. His reputation was his biggest currency… and his greatest poison. And you were bit by his fangs.
There is this little Brazilian wisecrack that I learned while in college, “If you owe a hundred thousand, your bank owns you. If you owe a hundred million, you own the bank.” Madoff now owns all of the people he has betrayed, including you. You and others must demand that he pays for his crimes with his fortunes, his freedom and the rest of his life, down to the last penny and breath. Only then you can rid of the chains that tie you all to him and his treason.
At first, I thought that the Feds would take care of his punishment. But now I realize that jail time and destitution will not be the ultimate punishment for him. If anything gives me assurance, it is the fact that he will spend the rest of his days… alone.
Take comfort in that, csimon.
You know, until last week, I was seriously considering the possibility of investing some of an inheritance I received last August in the stock market. But after all that has happened in the past few months, I wonder if the coil-filled inside of my bedroom mattress will be the better financial house…
Misery loves company.
Anyone checked their 401k lately?
Mine’s back to where it was in 2006.
My wife’s savings have lost some 30% of their value, without requiring any criminal involvement. We’re also observant (but not Orthodox) Jews living in NYC, sending our son to a Jewish day school, so I expect we’re going to be feeling some severe fallout from the mess left behind in the foundations and endowments. (My own savings are safe – I have been in CDs and money market funds for several years now, precisely because I knew that with Bush as president, the country was headed for disaster. But being married means share and share alike.)
By the way, since Kipling was mentioned, let me offer a cautionary excerpt from A Pict Song for all of you so fond of American empire:
Rome never looks where she treads.
Always her heavy hooves fall
On our stomachs, our hearts or our heads;
And Rome never heeds when we bawl.
Her sentries pass on–that is all,
And we gather behind them in hordes,
And plot to reconquer the Wall,
With only our tongues for our swords.
We are the Little Folk–we!
Too little to love or to hate.
Leave us alone and you’ll see
How we can drag down the State!
We are the worm in the wood!
We are the rot at the root!
We are the taint in the blood!
We are the thorn in the foot!
csimon,
Very sorry to hear about your unfortunate loss. Don’t know how old you are, but don’t despair completely. I invested most of my retirement IRA with a “master of the universe” investment manager. This man had a big reputation and an impressive record. But unlike Madoff, his operation was transparent and you could look at your investments on his website. When you are entrusting a financial guru with your assets you tend to say, “Hmmm, that stock doesn’t make sense, but, hey, he must know what he’s doing.” Yeah, he lost 50% of my money in a big market sell off just like this one. Suddenly, I no longer trusted that he knew what the heck he was doing. I decided to take control of what was left. Yes, it meant educating myself and a lot of hard work and nail biting, but I built my IRA back to where it had been and then some. I’ve lost some in this sell off, but no where near 40-50%. What I learned from my experience with the “master of the universe” was that no one cares about your money as much as you do. If you aren’t willing to do the work to know how to invest in stocks and bonds then just put it into laddered CDs so you are always getting the best interest rates currently available. Become an expert on interest rate cycles if nothing else.
As Gray points out you may get some of your investment back. I hope so. It would give you a chunk of capital to work your way back.
You are a classy guy with a good head on your shoulders so I’m sure you will do okay as time goes on. Good luck!
My wife’s savings have lost some 30% of their value, without requiring any criminal involvement.
That’s where I’m at.
Please: in the “once in a hundred years credit tsunami” (as Al Greenspan said) to lose only 30% is great.
But now I’m buying into a cheap market! Now I may have a chance at retiring before I’m 80!
Besides, Hyman, how can America still be an Evil Empire now that Obama is in charge? What will it take for you to stop despising your own country?
Hyman, I might remind you that America had no interest in Empire or being the World’s Police Force, but we were unwillingly placed in that position after WWI by the Progessives. The Fabians were supporters of Wilsonian democracy.
Of course not. Hyman is responding to a mythology, a narrative about America, as evidenced by his choice of illustrative song. There doesn’t need to be much evidence for mythology: someone just has to say “empire,” and then other empires can be dragged in with the assurance that “it’s always this way.” Counter-evidence is useless. Virtually any evidence can be used to confirm such narratives. Those who disagree are dismissed as simply unable to see the obvious.
Mr. Rosen, a serious question that I ask for spiritual rather than political reasons: do you ever question your premises? What do you think Mishnah is for?
I didn’t say “evil”, just a caution about the perils of asymmetric warfare and attempts to remake other countries in our image. And I don’t despise my country, just it’s Republican leaders. It’s going to be a while before I get around to whinging about it’s Democratic ones.
As far as investing with a “master of the universe”, mathematical models in finance usually begin with the efficient market hypothesis, that all knowledge is incorporated into the current price of an instrument, so masters can’t do better than anyone else. Track records aren’t really of much use – given a large enough starting pool of managers, some will achieve a great track record through nothing more than luck. You can’t rely on the old standby of “buy low, sell high” any more than you can rely on wagering at a “hot” craps table – you don’t know whether the table will continue to be hot, and whether the price is at its high or low.
What REALLY burns me is that this happened to my 86-yr. old father, who has lived the most straight arrow life (conservative, no cutting corners — not worth the risk of trouble), pillar of his community, and philanthropically extremely generous — proportionately much more so than many in his community that are much wealthier than him. But more than anything else, he’s just a good person who really is one of those few who truly has lead an exemplary life. He worked so hard, put three of us through college, and should be allowed to enjoy his remaining years in the comfort for which he carefully prepared. THAT breaks my heart and makes me crazy when I think of it. The family will pull together and somehow make it work. I don’t need much — an indulgence here or there but 9/11 cured me of the importance of “stuff.” That event brought about a sea change in my life and my perspective.
The other thing that truly upsets me, is the effect this will have on the charitable community. There are many, many important operations that are already devastated. Many had funds directly invested with Madoff, and a huge number relied upon the generosity of many wealthy people who gave generously. That on top of a poor economy, does not bode well at all.
It truly is hard to imagine that one man could do this. I can’t imagine what it was like to live the lie all these years….what he thought — if he did at all — about the damage he did. I can almost understand not having personal sentiment re: hedge funds, bank investments. (tho’ one would think that he might have felt some pangs with regard to those persons who brought the funds to him… In no way do I condone anything he did, but they are faceless entities which might seem just to have an endless supply of money. But individuals!! People! So any friends and relatives! He built a huge part of his book by word of mouth, and knew personally many of his victims. It really is hard to wrap your head around this — much as I had difficulty absorbing the reality that 9/11 presented to us — a portion of humanity with zero regard or respect for life, and the willingness, and desire to continue to outdo themselves by committing ever more murders of innocent people. In a parallel way, this man had no regard for anyone but himself and his family (apparently — thus far, all the Madoffs have maintained the innocence of the sons, Madoff’s brother, and niece).
Clumsy-footed stepping is exactly what we did in Iraq. As for Mishnah, funny you should mention that. A great deal of the discussion in the Talmud is attempts to reconcile the presumed inerrant yet seemingly contradictory pronouncements of the Tana’im. Inerrancy is a horrible assumption to make, and your inability to give it up must be causing you all manner of psychic distress now that your leader’s legacy has been formally rejected by the voters.
I didn’t say “evil”, just a caution about the perils of asymmetric warfare…..
Please don’t use terms you don’t understand; it just makes you dumb(er).
Clumsy-footed stepping is exactly what we did in Iraq.
I’m sure you could have done much, much better with your incredible wealth of experience in conventional warfare, unconventional warfare, covert operations, special operations, geo-politics, Arab culture and finance.
You’re just throwing rocks like I was on the “long distance rower” thread. It feels good, it’s fun, but I couldn’t come close to what he did.
You’re not qualified to brush the dust off my combat boots.
You can’t rely on the old standby of “buy low, sell high” any more than you can rely on wagering at a “hot” craps table – you don’t know whether the table will continue to be hot, and whether the price is at its high or low.
I’ve got 25 years before retirement. If the stock market isn’t up by then, we’ll have bigger problems than “the stock market”.
That’s why I also invest in guns, ammunition, skills and kids.
I’ll buy cheap stocks for the next 5-7 years….
“….and your inability to give it up must be causing you all manner of psychic distress now that your leader’s legacy has been formally rejected by the voters.”
Hyman Rosen
1. I don’t remember Bush running for office lately and being “formally rejected.”
2. Just in the last century, how many Presidents were popular at the end of their terms? None in my lifetime — unless you count the martyrdom of John F. Kennedy due to his assassination, and we know how well he did when he was in office: Cuban Missilie Crisis, Bay of Pigs, Kruschev….
3. Hyman, you know you are correct in one thing:
“Inerrancy is a horrible assumption to make…
It’s a dangerous assumption or presumption — and you might do well to heed your own words.
i. I would have done much worse. Fortunately, I was not in charge. Unfortunately, those who were in charge weren’t any good at it. Perhaps if they were, they would have not gone in at all. Remember Gulf War I, where we did not march into Baghdad?
ii. The Republicans were formally rejected.
iii. You must be extraordinarily young, because Bill Clinton left office with an approval rating of 65% and Ronald Reagan with 64%.
iv. Accusing me of believing in inerrancy is pretty odd. I think they’re all bozos. Some just manage to reach stunning heights of stupidity, evil, and incompetence.
Hyman,
If you have a room full of flies you have 2 choices, you can chase them all over the room with a fly swatter, or you can lay down a piece of fly paper. Baghdad was the fly paper.
George S. Patton is quoted as having said “Never let the enemy choose the Battlefield”.
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