Comments

Annapolis: for better, or for worse? — 121 Comments

1. This is my solution… I’m pasting text that I wrote to someone else, but I believe it should be clear:

   You asked

   “What could the governments of mainly Israel and the United States do to bring to an end this conflict our generation is dealing with? ”

   Simple..

   Declare war.

   No cease-fires… no truces.. no armitices..

   VICTORY DARN IT!

   The other side has no intention in peace therefore you must destroy their intention in war by giving them war.. giving them war so badly that they tranform into todays Japanese society instead of the Klingon society that Islam thinks it can get away with.

2. The best you can say about these type of talks is that they insulate you somewhat from a certain type of outside critic. You have to go through this for “them” and not for the parties in dispute. Bush had to go to the UN, he had to involve the “international community” etc.

   Condi Rice’s very hard job was that she had to do this, knowing that it would not work. She had to say the words of mild appeasement because they are expected.
   On the bright side, people in the middle east do these meetings for show every day of their lives so they don’t expect anything from this but a good lunch

3. I’m with David on this. I think the European “peace” lobby probably demanded it. Most people don’t realize how internal politics can make impossible demands on leaders who are more or less friendly to us.

   For instance, Merkel is under pressure from the banks and industry to resist greater sanctions against Iran. If these groups turn against her for material reasons, there is a good chance that the leftists could use populist peace and negotiation feelings to upset the coalition government. Schroeder and Steinmeier have already made frontal attacks on her policies towartd Putin and China.

4. I am just hoping that President Bush, unlike Clinton, undermines the thing as he may, at least as it regards further encroachment on Israeli security. Israel, however, seems intent upon relinquishing enough territory and inviting enough muslims back to create the war that is so needed. I am hoping it is in the firm belief that they will win and not simply, as my cynical notions indicate, a form of national suicide in truth mistakenly being forwarded with an idealistic hope that will never bear fruit.

   I do not trust the current Israeli leadership, and the Europeans seem to be about as good as the Palestinians regarding Israel. They weren’t able to get it done in WWII, this is a second change I guess. Does anyone aside from conservative Americans understand that the lamb is being led to the slaughter? And, our ability to help is being diminished by the failure, purposeful or not, of our leadership to provide conservative candidates. With the Republican Party on a path to reclaim it’s pre-60’s progressive roots, there is nothing being offered for current conservatives.

   Hopefully it will be some European city or cities turned to ash first, which will create an worldwide awakening. However, my fear is that American or European, Israel will be hit at the same time. A change in “diplomacy” at that point will be a bit late, I should think. I still wonder if the left will continue demanding dialogue? Wait, after 9/11, I take that back. We know.

5. Related to what Doom said, and illustrating how quickly liberals will abandon even those values and morals, they have traditionally espoused, the recent story of an British woman imprisoned in Sudan for allowing school children to name a teddy bear “mohammed”, is a perfect example.

   You would have thought, a western woman teaching children in an impoverished country would have been looked upon by liberals and feminists as an admirable person. Not on ABC News The View according to newsbusters: http://snipurl.com/1uhp0

   SHERRI SHEPHERD: “I think it’s like it’s sacrilegious to name a stuffed toy Muhammad. But you know, you would think that with her being in Sudan, she would know the rules and customs. Because I know I performed stand up in Turkey, and they gave me a big thick packet on the customs, and what you could and could not do, and how you would offend people. So I’m surprised that she didn’t know it might be offensive.”

   GOLDBERG: “Yeah, because you’d think if you’re going overseas, I mean, we had this discussion yesterday about people coming to America and learning the customs and knowing what is cool, and what isn’t cool. But I find that maybe we are not- and I say we just as European and American, we’re not as anxious to learn the customs before we go places. It’s just one of the reasons we’re called the ugly Americans..”

   Its the teachers fault!

   Liberals make dramatic theater about opposing conservatives on “principle” and “morals”, but the truth is they battle conservatives because conservatives are actually more predisposed to do battle on behalf “principle” and “morals”, which may end up getting yourself killed and expose those people (liberals & progressives), as shameless posers. Its also easier to do battle with conservatives because, well, we really arent the oppressive Nazis they make us out to be are we? Of course not. If you want real oppression. you can go teach school children in Sudan. But if you get caught exhibiting an unwitting “blasphemy”, dont look for help from the “progressives”.

6. Israel should declare total war and go for the annihilation of the Palestinian state and their allies. Any surrenders must be unconditional and only accepted after a huge proportion of damage has been inflicted. And if Israel can’t do this or won’t… then Israel never deserved being a nation in the first place.

   All nations had to earn their peace the hard way, by annihilating their enemies and forcing the submission of their neighbors to the status quo. Either that or joining a protectorate as Germany did with the United States post WWII.

   Nature, human nature, did not change all that much in just a century. Socialism and Marxism believes otherwise, of course, but those ideologies never did have the power to make people do what they were told in the long term.

   The Arabs understand the truth, they just suck at fighting wars. All their defeats taught the Arabs that negotiation and limited wars would never bring them victory. So they created the Endless War, starting with Arafat’s indoctrination of an entirely new generation of Palestinians to carry on this Endless War.

   Wars are not endless, of course. It just may seem so to the losing side, thereby motivating the losing side to sue for peace. Thus ending war. Asymmetrical wars, though, are probably the closest you can ever have to an “Endless War”. Which, given Israel’s status quo, is truly turning out to be a generational conflict. The Greeks practiced Western modern warfare, before the Peloponessian War which lasted for several decades. It lasted for several decades because the Peloponessian War was an asymmetrical war.

7. Remember Harry, only they are able to speak truth to Bush’s power.

8. What brave souls Ymar, to oppose such a tyrant.

9. It is just pragmatic on their part. They know which side their bread is buttered on.

   The real solution is to change their threat assessments. People can come back and insult/yell at you after a minor insult and injury. They can’t come back and do such after a major injury and fatal accident.

   For all people’s protestations that their pen is mightier than their enemy’s sword, the truth of the matter is that few people are strong enough to kill with a pen against an enemy wielding a sword. The media and the Left aren’t part of that elite and rare group. Lenin and Marx might have been, of course. Certainly the Soviets gave everyone a run for their money via the Soviet propaganda apparatus.

   In the end, what we do know is that the only people strong enough to kill with a pen against opponents armed with a sword, is the United States military. Specifically the Army and Marines.

   Do you see the media learning from the military, Harry? Do you see the Left trying to get stronger by training with the military? or do you see them trying to kick the military off their campuses?

   They won’t ever get strong enough to speak truth to power by being coach professors.

10. Well Ymar, you cnat very well teach “truth” to anyone if you lack it yourself. Which is what the real problem is.

11. There is hardly an issue more controversial, more heated, and more designed to get the metaphorical blood flowing in the comments section (and elsewhere) than that of Israel, Palestine, and what to do about them.

    Boy, are you right about that. As much as I enjoy arguing with people on this blog, I ain’t touching this topic with a 10 foot pole. But I will say in general that I think these talks will produce about as much progress as other initiatives have in the past under other presidents, which is to say, hardly enough or none at all. That’s a shame, and quite frankly, there’s not that much an American President can do about it, whatever his approach might be and whatever political side of the aisle he’s on. As harsh and as critical as commentators can be on all sides, they’d do well to remember that in the end the conflict must be decided by the Israelis and the Palestinians, not by us.

12. Xan, actually, the US has a very important role here, and that is one of support in arms training an politicaly in world affairs as an ally of Isreal. We are, after all, fighting the same enemy.

13. that very last line in your post Neo is the serenity prayer, and I believe the most powerful phrase within that prayer is “wisdom to know the difference”

14. X, for once I agree with you wholeheartedly.

    Laura, thanks for your gracious reply re: your son on that “other” thread. I apologize for doubting you, and I want you to know that I truly, sincerely appreciate your son’s service. He does himself and the nation an honor. It’s unfortunate that you and I see the mission differently; I would hope that he sees it through and returns home safely–and soon.

15. OT, slightly. I went through divorce mediation. At least the criminal court system is predicated on someone being guilty. The civil court system, or at least, mediation, is based on the supposition that there are two rational parties who want a solution. When one party is determined on punishment and vengeance or is nuts, you get situations like this:

    Mediator: And what’s your position, Mrs. Smith?
    Mrs Smith: I could be satisfied with 2 bullets in his heart.
    Mediator: Mr. Smith, how do you feel about that? Two bullets in the heart?
    Mr. Smith: Don’t sound too good to me.
    Mediator, graciously: I know! How about one? One bullet in the heart, Mr. Smith? Everybody gives a little, it’s 50-50, seems reasonable enough to me. Eh, Mr. Smith?
    Mr. Smith: One bullet in the heart? From that crazy bitch? Well, shit, no way I’m…
    Mediator: Mr. Smith, we agreed not to be judgmental and disparaging, didn’t we?

    Perhaps this is not so OT after all.

16. Talks are only useful if both sides are willing to be “reasonable” – this is true in anything. Nor is compromise good in and of itself.

    All it takes is Simon’s story – if one side wants you wiped off the face of the planet and nothing less than that is acceptable then there is no reason to continue talks. Compromise doesn’t work there either, when one side wants are that extreme there is no way that you can give them a little of what they want (a little bit of genocide is still genocide).

    It just feels good to do this and they take advantage of it – because our sides goal is to avoid war it feels like something is being accomplished by the talks. However one side is totally dishonest all it is doing is delaying the inevitable and allowing the dishonest side time until they are strong enough to do what they want. We can find many many accounts in modern history – in fact the number of times negotiation has truly worked is VERY rare and in all of those cases both sides didn’t really want war and there was more than simply talks too (see the cold war).

    Imagine how much bloodshed and misery would have been averted if, when this was apparent back in the late 60’s early 70’s if we did what should have been done. Now all it has done is cause decades of death and misery and still in the same position we were in when it started and we will stay in that position until the Palestinians decide to be honest or we finally get pushed into doing what is required to be done.

17. The only, but only, way this is going to end is in wholesale killing.

    You want peace with the Palestinians, you’ve got to kill them wholesale.

    Sounds barbaric and it is, but in the end that is the only thing that will work and that is what will be done.

    It only awaits sufficient provocation.

18. Xan, actually, the US has a very important role here, and that is one of support in arms training an politicaly in world affairs as an ally of Isreal. We are, after all, fighting the same enemy.

    I didn’t say we don’t. I very much believe we do. However, I also believe that there’s a limit to what an American President can persuade either side to do.

19. stumbley

    thank you for your words. we may not agree on many things, but we are both brother and sister in this great nation.

    again thanks

20. The Chinese are actively working to achieve bluewater parity.

    The Old Sovs are working real, real hard to become the New Sovs.

    Hamas is the elected face of the Palestinian Arabs.

    The Sauds, and various other tribes of lesser barbarian stripe, continue to be blessed by the existence of oil beneath their wasteland countries.

    Now taking into account Mr. Vanderleun’s position, how long does anyone think that “Islamic Fundamentalism” (in the form of senseless bombings, riots in Paris slums, rumbles on Aussie beaches, or heaven forbid riots in Hamistan, USA…) is going to be tolerated as a threat once the PRC sinks an aircraft carrier on their way to Taiwan…or Russia decides that Poland, or the Latvian states, or Hungary, or anywhere else is “traditionally Russian territory” or “necessary for defense”….

    IMO Annapolis is “That F****** Hoop Every American Administration Jumps Through Even Though Every Sentient Being On The Planet Knows It’s A Sham”.

    If Iraq had a few years to work, if Mushareff pulls an entire rabbit farm out of his a$$ and forms the anvil to our hammer and lets us clean out al Q, and if the Saud royalty makes the call to join the human race and quashes Wahabbism…

    … we might see the resolution of this conflict in some form less… drastic… than big smoking piles of bodies dotting a wasted subcontinent.

    The economic, cultural, and demographic forces approaching cusp are pivotal. The sad state of Western civilization and our abject state of vacuity of political and moral leadership is a recipe for several hundred million deaths.

    They will die just to clear the decks for the real fight to follow. You cannot fight a technological war for the future of the human race by granting wannabe – eight century brigands a place on the board, much less within your borders and certainly not camped on top of the fuel you will have to have, or deny to others, to win.

    We live in very interesting times.

21. “Declare war.”

    “You have to go through this for “them” and not for the parties in dispute.”

    “I am just hoping that President Bush, unlike Clinton, undermines the thing …”

    “Hopefully it will be some European city or cities turned to ash first, which will create an worldwide awakening.”

    “Israel should declare total war and go for the annihilation of the Palestinian state and their allies. Any surrenders must be unconditional and only accepted after a huge proportion of damage has been inflicted. And if Israel can’t do this or won’t… then Israel never deserved being a nation in the first place.”

    “The only, but only, way this is going to end is in wholesale killing.

    “You want peace with the Palestinians, you’ve got to kill them wholesale.”

    “You cannot fight a technological war for the future of the human race by granting wannabe – eight century brigands a place on the board, much less within your borders and certainly not camped on top of the fuel you will have to have, or deny to others, to win.”

    Perhaps my memory is beginning to go. I seem to recall being told that one of the problems with the left is that they are “pessimists” whereas neocons are “optimists” who believe that things will work out for the better.

    I suppose, if one believes that biblical Armageddon is right around the corner and the sooner we help blood flow like a mighty river in the holy lands the sooner we’ll see the Second Coming (bring on the Rapture), then these comments might be deemed optimistic.

    It would appear that I finally got the answer to a question I asked on another thread; the answer is that many who post here DO think that the wholesale slaughter of followers of Islam, beginning with all of those who reside in the Middle East, is the best way to go. Why that genocide would be good genocide where other genocide is bad escapes me.

    So, the real question would seem to be how to slaughter tens of millions while not destroying access to the fuel they’re “camped on top of” and not destroying the Israelis in the bargain. Maybe we’re going to have to revisit the issue of the draft. I doubt stoploss alone would give us enough boots on the ground to wipe out the entire Arab population of the ME. Cleanup after a nuclear carpet bombing of the entire region would seem a bit daunting. And then there’s the pesky issue of all the Arabs and followers of Islam scattered elsewhere around the globe. Of course, perhaps this means we can look forward to many cities in Europe being turned to ash as part of the campaign to get the rest of the world to wake up and smell the falafels.

    I’ll beat jimfocus to the first popular media reference:

    “Boom goes London and boom Paree
    More room for you and more room for me
    And every city the whole world round
    Will just be another American town
    Oh, how peaceful it will be
    We’ll set everybody free
    You’ll wear a Japanese kimono
    And there’ll be Italian shoes for me

    They all hate us anyhow
    So let’s drop the big one now
    Let’s drop the big one now”

    Randy Newman

22. Hi –

    This is a shameless plug, but I just posted this on my blog on basically the same subject:

    http://21stcenturyschizoidman.blogspot.com/2007/12/around-and-around-and-around-we-go.html

    where the question has to do with what is driving Annapolis and the Palestinians…and about the hard, hard choices made necessary by the failure of diplomacy.

    Or more exactly, less a failure of diplomacy and much more the deliberate manipulation of the process.

23. “Perhaps my memory is beginning to go. I seem to recall being told that one of the problems with the left is that they are “pessimists” whereas neocons are “optimists” who believe that things will work out for the better.”

    No. The “Left” sees the world through the lens of “things oughta be like THIS” and then proceed to act in an historical vacuum… “THIS” being whatever the current ideological construct or political fad the Left is enamored of at the moment.

    The other folk look at what is, compares it to what has gone before, and try to come up with solutions that work.

    Placating a culture of psychopaths (check out the textbooks and the Koran) isn’t survivable.

    “I suppose, if one believes that biblical Armageddon is right around the corner and the sooner we help blood flow like a mighty river in the holy lands the sooner we’ll see the Second Coming (bring on the Rapture), then these comments might be deemed optimistic.”

    Sorry, no Jeebus Belt Bible Thumper here, pard. Just an historian.

    “It would appear that I finally got the answer to a question I asked on another thread; the answer is that many who post here DO think that the wholesale slaughter of followers of Islam, beginning with all of those who reside in the Middle East, is the best way to go. Why that genocide would be good genocide where other genocide is bad escapes me.”

    Where do you see me (or anyone else) proposing genocide? Have you checked out the policy position of the Iranian Government re: The Jewish State? That of Hamas? Or of the Arab League? I am not saying there is ANY spiritual component to effectively defeating the threat of Islamic fascism.

    I’m saying that it needs to be done.

    If we had governments in Saudi and Iran that believed in The Rights of Man in ANY shape or form, then those governments could lead their people into a new era where they were fit to be neighbors with civilized people.

    Islamic fascism is simply the lethal safety valve for a repressive and unsustainable cultural model.

    Islam is born of brigandage and survives ascendant today simply because of OIL. Export of the angry young is just one of the toys that oil buys – other, less terrifying ones are private A380s, skyscrapers in the desert, ski resorts in Bahrain, man-made archipelagos, sextour enclaves in Scandinavia and Thailand, and any number Western academics/media/financiers/politicians.

    But it’s all fueled by an inconceivable amount of capital we all provide everytime we flip a light, turn a key, or eat a meal. The burn rate on the capital behind world survival makes the entire dotcom bubble, the great depression, and the last ice age combined look like marginal notes in history’s ledger.

    Someday that fuel will run out. Or more likely – much more likely – populations seeking political or territorial superiority will act to achieve their ends and the first priority will be to fight the shortest, sharpest fight possible. I mention Russia and China simply because they are best positioned and most likely by form of government to move in this direction. India seems to want to remain the world largest democracy and thus is UNWILLING TO USE FORCE EVEN WHEN IN IT’S OBVIOUS INTEREST… and we have the obvious and ongoing struggle between democratic Israel and nihilistic Palestinians who have been literally bred to be Hitler’s surrogates. By resisting the necessity to use enough force to END THE FIGHT AND STILL BE IN EXISTENCE, Israel gambles with survival everyday.

    Israel should respond to every rocket attack with tube artillery and airstrikes. For every rocket, they should move the demarcation lines of Gaza and the West Bank one meter east or west.

    And if we aren’t going to take out Iran’s nuclear facilities (which I’m pretty sure we are) then we should go ahead and let the Israelis know. We won’t do it conventionally, so they will have to do it with nuclear weapons.

    Chamberlain had the excuse of not actually understanding the evil he faced. What is left of Western Civ has no such fig leaf where fundamentalist Islam is concerned.

    I don’t want Islam wiped out. But they will cease killing my friends, neighbors, and allies based on their ideology. One way or another.

24. Where do you see me (or anyone else) proposing genocide?

    How else should this comment by Vanderleun be interpreted?

    “You want peace with the Palestinians, you’ve got to kill them wholesale.”

    Replace ‘Palestinians’ with ‘Jews’ and re-read it if that helps clarify things.

25. Sorry, no Jeebus Belt Bible Thumper here, pard. Just an historian.

    Sorry, but someone who believes that Islam is a “culture of psychopaths” is a poor and uninformed historian indeed.

26. You want peace with the Palestinians, you’ve got to kill them wholesale.

    Sounds barbaric and it is, but in the end that is the only thing that will work and that is what will be done.

    It only awaits sufficient provocation.

    Chris, I believe this viewpoint has been espoused in regards to Native Americans, Africans, all Arabs, Indians, Asians, etc., etc. But of course, they all brought it on themselves by daring to contest another group’s supremecy and dominion over them, and so they got what they had coming to them.

27. The founding principle of Hamas is “kill the Jews”.

    Find me a way to defeat that without overwhelming military victory and we’ll talk.

    Hamas, and several hundred million Arabs, define Jewry (and apostasy to Islam, cartoons, and naming teddy bears the same as the prophet) as a capital offense. Beslan, WTC, Bali, Sbarro,

    Where is your outrage toward THEM?

    Israel where the desert blooms. Where governments come and go on the whim of the governed. Where justice exists.

    Czechoslovakia. Munich. Camp David. And now Annapolis.

    The crux of my argument is not what we should do, but rather what is going to happen because we won’t do the right thing now.

    Thanks for hosting this forum, Neo. Discussing the defense of civilization with a liberal is agreeing to hold an anvil with a drowning man who demands a debate on their definition of buoyancy .

    Pride. It’ll kill ya.

28. X:

    “But of course, they all brought it on themselves by daring to contest another group’s supremecy (sic) and dominion over them, and so they got what they had coming to them.“.

    Care to judge your place in relation to ascendant Islam, the religion of submission?

    There is no “justice” involved here. Sometimes you have two competing ideologies – or just one movement of political, theological, or economic force – that will not be restrained. For four thousand years we’ve had cycles of empire and barbarism, with the longevity and impact of each state wildly depending on variable such as but not limited to climate, population, or technology.

    The ills of the world are NOT solely attributable to pasty penis men…

    It’s a long story, X, and the page is going to turn on today whether we like it or not.

    We’re the ones that last flirted with Empire – the kind of heel-on-the-throat empire that Britain’ India or that of Rome were – in 1899. We were sucked into an economic/colonial war in 1917 and declined a place of power to prevent another like it. And we ended the last ideological war by allying with totalitarian at least as unsavory as Hitler… but we did in fact eventually beat the Sovs by denying their regime even the facade of respectability. We stopped selling them food so they could make more weapons. We built weapons that made it impossible for them to defeat us and then watched their system with and die when their failure sucked the last ruble out of the economy.

    And then we celebrated the end of history.

    We haven’t named political Islam an enemy of freedom like we did communism. Kind of funny how that worked out; not many people in the west took Islam seriously – “submission” is antithetical to the bedrock concepts of individual franchise and freewill embodied in western civ. The westerners most willing to accommodate Islam turn out to be the same demographic that made room for communism. Go figure that.

    Good, bad…we’re the one with the five thousand nukes. And when it becomes clear that we’ve let slip the moment when our conventional forces could have done the necessary work, we’ll be left with unconventional force and nothing else.

    I’m using all my angst up trying to make the point that the enemy is before us and can be defeated in detail. We can cut the heads of the dictatorships off in sequence and foster representative democracy in the place of the thugocracies.

    But that would require we believe in something bigger than our own little existences… and the bad guys may well have us there.

    We can debate and theorize endlessly; as long as somebody else is getting killed that’s no reason for us not to defend each our own pet theories…

    … until it’s us that picks the wrong Tuesday to fly out of Boston. Or sends our kids off to elementary school the day the enemy has chosen to make a statement.

    Times up. End the fight now in loud and messy fashion, or end it later at a cost no one can even begin to calculate.

29. X: Chris, I believe this viewpoint has been espoused in regards to Native Americans, Africans, all Arabs, Indians, Asians, etc., etc.

    Well, no, it hasn’t actually. But that won’t stop a good “liberal” on a guilt binge.

    CW and especially X, though, do illustrate something important about the nature of this particular struggle. The islamists actually do have a strategy, after all, and stripped down, it might go something like this: first kill the enemy — Jews, Christians, Europeans, Americans, Africans, whatever — “wholesale”, in as large batches as possible, especially targeting women and children since they’re often easier; then, after stirring up their fear, roll over and play to the liberal guilt that pervades the decadent “first world” particularly, appealing to their shame at the very fact of being the “dominant group”. Fear is the weapon, in other words, and guilt is the shield. Of course, both the fear and the guilt really only work well with certain segments of these societies, but since those segments represent important elites, themselves dominating major media outlets and centers of education, that’s quite enough to constitute a workable strategy. They’re not aiming, after all, to be at the head of an invading army — they’re aiming to bring the nations and cultures they see as their enemies down from within, after paralyzing them with a kind of culture-wide Stockholm Syndrome. Read the transcripts of one of OBL’s recent monologues, for an example of the appeal.

30. Sally –

    Well said.

    Wish I had the chops to write any more.

    This was worth the effort.

31. Xan:
    “I believe this viewpoint has been espoused in regards to Native Americans, Africans, all Arabs, Indians, Asians, etc., etc. But of course, they all brought it on themselves by daring to contest another group’s supremecy and dominion over them, and so they got what they had coming to them.”

    Ah, yes. More preening and smug, but empty pontification from the left. Feel better now Xan? ” I feel good about myself because I espouse the correct sentiment I am expected to express to be considered a good and nonjudgmental person.”, Imagines Xan.

    Regardless of the attempt by liberals on this board to project upon the conservative view point as being one derived from a radical Christian fundamentalist viewpoint:

    “I suppose, if one believes that biblical Armageddon is right around the corner and the sooner we help blood flow like a mighty river in the holy lands the sooner we’ll see the Second Coming (bring on the Rapture), then these comments might be deemed optimistic.”

    And ignoring almost completely that this is almost exactly how the other side of the GWOT views it., the fact that continued liberal preening about dialogue and “peace process” continues to drag out the conflict and kills wounds and enslaves more Palestinians in perpetual depravity, martyrdom and victim hood than would ordinarily would happen if there were an all out total war.

    That the Palestinians, (“the brown people”) are just as much the victims of Arab ethnic discrimination, and the victim of their own greedy and inept “leadership” has completely slipped the “progressive” mind. The “progressive” is not interested in “ground truth”. The “progressive” is interested in feeling good about himself and how he is perceived by other liberals. The suffering, of course, continues.

    “Free Darfur!” “Save Tibet!” “The Republicans are racists!”

    Good boy Xan and Chris, good boy.

32. I think it was Gore Vidal who said that a neocon is a liberal who got mugged by a black person twenty years ago.

33. Regardless of the attempt … to project upon the conservative view point … one derived from a radical Christian fundamentalist viewpoint … ignoring almost completely that this is almost exactly how the other side of the GWOT views it

    To begin, my comment was about the way those who do not espouse neocon views have been accused of pessimism (and, yes, also of wishful thinking) and so was extrapolating from there that one of the only ways of finding optimism while calling for massive warfare in the ME I could imagine would be if one believes we are entering the biblical End Days.

    There are radical Christian fundamentalists who believe and advocate all kinds of extreme views, most of which are repudiated by mainstream Christians; so, too, there are radical Zionist, Islamist, Hindu and whatever fundamentalists whose views do not reflect mainstream versions of those faiths.

    Ah, yes, I hear you counter, but so many mainstream Muslims DO accept these repugnant ideas, so it is US against THEM and the only viable option is total war, kill THEM wholesale. If we look back fifty years in American history to the period of the Civil Rights movement it might be argued (and was by radical fringe elements on both sides at the time) that it was US against THEM and the only realistic way out of the centuries old impasse was through armed conflict; kill THEM wholesale. There are those today who still argue variations of that ‘solution’ to racial tensions here in the U.S.

    Implicit in the thinking of all of these vastly different groups is the notion that WE are divinely or genetically or morally superior beings and THEY are so debased as to be incapable of compromise or change and so must be permanently eradicated or exiled.

    God help us all if, as some of those commenting here seem to hope, President Bush is only doing this for PR cover in dealings with various European and ME countries while secretly undermining it.

34. Nice post, Chris, Christopher Hedges talks a lot about the radical Christianists and how demonizing & dehumanizing the perceived opponent is part of the desensitization process so you can justify almost any tactic in pursuit of the war. Following closely is almost always talk about the superior or dominant group, etc. Hedges, a veteran war correspondent, has become radically anti-war based on his war experiences, the horrible things he saw.

35. I’ve never heard liberals, leftists, or democrats called pessimists, except in very limited areas (like when we are winning a war, doing something (political or economic) which supports our own nation, or succeeding internationally in any way. The rest of the time, those named are absolutely joyfully and blissfully dead to reason with optimism about how well Chavez is/will do (if some just think eventually, most seem happy now), how fast we can leave Iraq (presumably to be reassigned to Kosavo? Wasn’t that for a year?), or how many abortions can be done in the fastest time. You know, optimism about the failure of America, reason, wholesomeness, or even human life itself just seems to have no bounds in some circles. No, I wouldn’t call the left pessimistic. Nor have I heard others do so. Gee, you are so hard on yourself. Cheer up, mate.

36. Perhaps my memory is beginning to go. I seem to recall being told that one of the problems with the left is that they are “pessimists” whereas neocons are “optimists” who believe that things will work out for the better.-Chris

    That only applies to the war effort in Iraq. Why would it occur anywhere else?

    The Left may be “optimistic” about international goings on, but such things are not the same as being optimistic about the state of things in America and Iraq.

    Apples and oranges, Chris. Why don’t you just stick to one topic and not bring all this other stuff that is clogging your works.

37. I’ve never heard liberals, leftists, or democrats called pessimists, except in very limited areas (like when we are winning a war, doing something (political or economic) which supports our own

    Technically, that would make the Democrats believers in predestination concerning the failure of Iraq, not even pessimists.

38. To begin, my comment was about the way those who do not espouse neocon views have been accused of pessimism (and, yes, also of wishful thinking) and so was extrapolating from there that one of the only ways of finding optimism while calling for massive warfare in the ME I could imagine would be if one believes we are entering the biblical End Days.

    For one thing, this isn’t about the Muslims, the Jews, or Annapolis. Another thing would be that just as we don’t agree with your philosophy of international workings and writs, you don’t agree with the American school of Total War.

    Your massive warfare would indeed be devastating and crippling for no gain whatsoever. But your brand of massive warfare is not American Total War or even American Limited War. Just as our preference for classical diplomacy has little to no relation to your preference for modern diplomacy, Chris.

    Why do you continue to pretend that the Left is talking about the same things as their opponents? The Left has a different consideration of torture than we do, they have a different conception of peace and war than we do, and the Left even has a different conception of what is ethically right and wrong than we do.

    It would seem, to a reasonable person, that the recognition of such differences would be a mandatory action for anyone seeking to communicate and argue across the aisle. Yet you still believe and act as if when you say “optimism”, it means the same thing coming from us as it is comming from you. It doesn’t.

    Implicit in the thinking of all of these vastly different groups is the notion that WE are divinely or genetically or morally superior beings and THEY are so debased as to be incapable of compromise or change and so must be permanently eradicated or exiled.-C

    The Left really shouldn’t try to ascribe motivations to their opponents. It just never works right in the end.

    Can you know what we are thinking of, when you don’t recognize that when we say diplomacy would be better than war, it doesn’t mean the same thing as when you say diplomacy is better than war?

39. … the notion that WE are divinely or genetically or morally superior beings …

    … talk about the superior or dominant group, etc.

    etc., etc.

    As these examples make clear, the latter-day “liberal” (with the few usual exceptions) literally cannot bring himself to acknowledge that one culture might actually be “superior” to another, in any way. Relativism — cultural, moral, even, in some cases, epistemological — is so deeply ingrained in these types that they would choke before they could admit that the culture of which their own nation is a part, in particular, might be in any way better than another. For any self-styled liberal to speak of the relative value of freedom, for example, in the West versus in Islam, would be to risk instant mockery and ostracism from their tribe. In fact, it’s not just that their own culture must be levelled with all others — it’s that, ironically, the very technological superiority of the West must be held against it, and become the source of its moral inferiority, on account of its colonial past. Only then can this “liberal” rest in the smug comforts of this rather perverse rectitude.

    And all the while, as 9/11 made clear finally, we’re facing an enemy that shrinks from absolutely nothing in order to slaughter as many as they possibly can, any way they can, any time they can. And that counts, as their own leaders make clear, on the guilt-ridden, fear-ridden complexes of what they see as a decadent culture to forestall the reaction that would blow them away. Not hard to see why our modern “liberal” is exactly what’s meant by the old phrase “useful idiot”.

40. Sally,

    Yes, and it is what is wrong with our education system. We wonder why so many young black men think getting an education is too white. Sure, some of it is from some of the rotten parents, but no small part of it is from the education system which is nearly completely in step with the type of thinking you discuss. Even if they tried to keep that out of their educational programs, it would be impossible. Beyond, this type of behavior problem prone thinking has spread from the lower end to the middle class and upper class education and on to higher education. Rather than seeing that as a “problem sector” and limiting it, it is being spread in order to produce an equality of outcome through standardized mediocrity (or more, equality of idiocy). And, I thought the politicians who were growing up through the 60’s and 70’s were bad (to include the current president, to some degree). I can only imagine the Bubba Thugocracies awaiting us.

    Sometimes I could swear that I am just in a bad dream, that I will wake up, and people will actually be sane and do wise, intelligent, and pro-active positive things for themselves, each other, the communities they live in, the nation, and the world. Evil men will be called that and dealt with, often fairly lightly since they will have no power. It would be great to walk into a school (and not need a police escort for any reason), and see kids really learning and working. And, to actually be able to test them on the subjects, to include their true cultural heritage, and have them test well. I am either dreaming, in purgatory, or perhaps just in hell. Because what I see around me is not right.

41. why so many young black men think getting an education is too white.

    Is there Black and White Educations systems?

    I wounder what are the differences?

42. it’s not for no reason that iran, the prc, putin’s russia, hugo chavez and others are testing the edges, they smell weakness… i read that the israelis were required to enter the building by a separate door, to placate the saudis, amongst others. if it’s true then there is greater tragedy looming for israel and the rest of the free world. rice and bush’s conduct in promoting annapolis is nothing less than betrayal…

43. “Is there Black and White Educations systems?”

    No, at least in the US we all share the same educational system. Either that or the other people in the class with me that had high levels melanin in their skin were simply a figment of my imagination (If true, especially bad given that I was in the vast minority through my public education).

    “rice and bush’s conduct in promoting annapolis is nothing less than betrayal…”

    I would hate to be in their shoes – in the US Iraq is a political quagmire that is irrelevant to the actual situation on the ground – the Israel-Palestinian conflict is orders of magnitude worse.

    I tend to agree with the sentiment, however I will wait longer to decide. As long as they push for realistic stuff (not like Clinton did wherein Israel gave up half their land for a promise to try and do less attacks, but no guarantee of it) and otherwise just treat it like it really is (wasting time) then I do not care so much.

    They do seem to hope to have something productive come of it however. I think it would be amusing if there was someone running the “talks” that realized that the newest run of them in the, what, last 50 years isn’t going to achieve anything. “I have a peanut here and it is near lunch time – anyone want to give me a concession for it? How about a 10% reduction in suicide bombers or 100 square miles of land?”. It would be just as effective yet MUCH more entertaining to watch.

    I don’t see any realistic way around it. Until the Palestinians do something that allows the rest of world to finally invade and stop them or Israel is finally wiped off the face of the planet the status quo will be it. The status quo since the end of WWII is the Palestinians sending suicide bombers over there while having talks about stopping it. Only in the US and then only for a short period of time does having a state send suicide bombers onto you soil allow you to retaliate (and then blowing up a few buildings and coming back home is all that is allowed).

44. I’m a white guy w/ 5 black children & 8 black grandchildren–we all live in inner city STL. N STL is one of the worst ghettos in the country. Schools are our hope for change, but they are quickly overwhelmed by the pathologies that exist in the very same neighborhoods. I could go on, but a great book of essays on the subject are contained in 2 epochal books that have had great impact, “Winning the Race” & “Authentically Black” written by a friend of mine John McWhorter, a brilliant writer, and much misunderstood. Another brilliant book by yet another friend, Peter Wood, is “Diversity, Invention of a Concept” which is a devastating take on what’s wrong w/ the schools.

    My overall take is that the public school systems have resegregated over the past 30 years due to white flight & racism, and the continuing de facto segregation in the US, despite some progress. Another phenomena, under-reported, is the growing de facto segregation of private & charter schools.

    My feeling is the overwhelming problem in the black community is drug and alcohol addiction, it affects everything. Second is the continual grinding cycle of poverty for most.

    Talk about dominant groups and superior cultures, especially from ethnic groups of people who were subjected to the same psychopathological thinking such a short time ago is truly ironic–folks just don’t learn from history.

    You can think you’ll solve the problem by force, war, declaring one group superior to another–it never works–because it simply isn’t true.

45. Israel gave up half their land for a promise to try and do less attacks, but no guarantee of it)

    Here we see the White man thinking!

    Did Israel give their land?

    It’s an occupied land, how Israeli gives occupied land?

    Can you asked the thief to give you your belonging?

46. Demands of a thief

    “To give or not to give,” that is the Shakespearean question – “to make concessions” or “not to make concessions.”

    Just as no one would conceive of killing the residents of an entire neighborhood, to harass and incarcerate it because of a few criminals living there, there is no justification for abusing an entire people in the name of our security. The question of whether ending the occupation would threaten or strengthen Israel’s security is irrelevant. There are not, and cannot be, any preconditions for restoring justice.

47. jimfocus:
    “You can think you’ll solve the problem by force, war, declaring one group superior to another—it never works—because it simply isn’t true.”

    Oh! Good boy Jim! Good boy! Another empty self serving “feel-good” sentiment for your lefty pals. Good for you Jim! Good for you!

48. Well, like I said, Harry. There is a fundamental belief in Total War by conservatives that isn’t shared by the Left.

    Against such a backdrop, there is no particular reason to argue about policy. It will never reach a good compromise due to the fact that neither side will compromise their philosophical beliefs. Just as Palestine won’t compromise their existence, which needs the hate against the Jews. Just as Israel won’t compromise their existence, which needs to be able to control internal policies and security.

    Course, Olmert might be able to compromise Israel’s security unintentionally, like Chamberlain. That is always possible, with the unintended consequences going on.

49. # harry9000 Says:
    December 1st, 2007 at 6:12 pm

    Well Ymar, you cnat very well teach “truth” to anyone if you lack it yourself. Which is what the real problem is.
    

    Aristocrats have faced the problem of being part of the nobility but not being noble, for a very long time, Harry.

50. which needs the hate against the Jews.

    This statement lake of truth.

    There are Jews still living in Islamic world, ther is no hatred as such, as example there are 20,000 jew in living Iran!

    But the problem its Israel occupation of Arab Land?

51. The 12 Myths of Annapolis

    By Phyllis Bennis

52. It looks like the neocon votes are in. Diplomatic efforts to bring a peaceful resolution to the Israeli/Palestinian conflict are, at best, cynical theatrical exercises aimed at placating various audiences here and abroad; at worst they idiotically forestall the inevitable. The inevitable is, of course, a full-blown military campaign. Given the inferior culture, religion and intellectual capabilities of the Palestinians and their anti-Israeli rhetoric the only true solution is wiping them out.

    Can you asked the thief to give you your belonging?

    While this question might give hives to your fifth grader’s English teacher, it attempts to ask something valid. It is the most problematic of the underlying causes of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict. After WWII the Europeans and Americans decided the solution to their “Jewish Problem” was to create a Jewish state outside of Europe. For biblical reasons the holy lands of Palestine were selected. This required those living there, who had lived there for centuries, to give up their land and become essentially stateless. In short, the Palestinians have been asking for the return of at least a portion of their belongings from those who took them away.

    It was a solution the way the “Trail of Tears” and reservation system was a solution to the “Indian Problem” in the U.S. Perhaps, if the size of the land area involved were as great as the continental U.S., and if the Palestinians had been decimated by disease, and if they simply accepted their fate meekly, it would have worked. Unfortunately, it did not.

    Hey, I’ve got a great idea. Let’s solve a bunch of problems at the same time. Let’s give the Israelis a chunk of southwestern Texas and New Mexico and move all of their citizens there. It has a similar climate and the Israelis could deal with the problem of illegal immigration along the Rio Grande. The Palestinians could take back their land in the ME and the Arabs states wouldn’t have Israel as a causa belli any more. We’d only need an agreement between the U.S. and the Israelis to get it to happen, none of those messy and stupid international agreements.

    Now, what to do about all those Texans?

53. to create a Jewish state outside of Europe. For biblical reasons the holy lands of Palestine were selected.

    To be more accurate here it was two places offered to them one in Africa and one in ME!!

54. Hey, Harry, the US went 200 years avoiding pre-emptive, unilateral wars–it seemed to work. War is not the answer, not necessarily a lefty idea…it’s the basic tenet of real Christianity. Also, if you are so gung ho, get over to the ME and start trading bullets, if you’re able. War, military intervention, should be a last resort, nearly 20 different generals have publicly stated the Iraq war was either an elective conflict or unnecessary. Whatever, it’s a certifiable mess now. Now people are talking about invading Palestine to get it over with. I remember my fed days, the toughest talkers were always farthest from the action.

    “Madness! Madness!”–Bridge on the River Kwai

55. CW: In short, the Palestinians have been asking for the return of at least a portion of their belongings from those who took them away.

    As always, wrong. The Jews had been living there for centuries, too, indeed millennia; there was no “state” there for anyone to take or give away prior to the arrival of European colonizers; The Jews were ready and willing to share the land with a Palestinian state when Israel was created but the Arabs wanted it all and invaded invaded the new Israel in order to destroy it (they lost, and not for the last time); hundreds of thousands (or more) of Jews were forced out of Arab lands after the creation of the Jewish state; and the “Palestinians” continue to demand all the land, and continue to deny Israel the right to exist.

    As neo says, this is an old and tiresome “argument”, continually fomented by lies — some half-lies, some full-out — on the part of the surrounding Arab states, who find Israel’s success as a modern state a perpetual embarrassment next to their own quasi-medieval tyrannies, and who also find fomenting anti-Jewish bigotry a nice diversion for their own restive masses. These lies are spread and amplified by the softest, most decadent segments of the West, who either share the islamist hatred for the modern (aka capitalist) West, or who are the easily confused useful idiots mentioned earlier.

56. Jews were forced out of Arab lands after the creation of the Jewish state;

    Another untrue statement!

    Let take Iraq, Iraq was under British Mandate although its monarchy, but the reality as it is now, elected Iraqi government but who hold the power Sally can you be truthfully and tell us?
    Then you may tell us they withdraw their citizenships from them but who hold the power again Sally?

    Iraq also issue call to his jews who left in 1948 to come back with full compencations

57. embarrassment next to their own quasi-medieval tyrannies,

    Hummmm, who creates those “quasi-medieval tyrannies” like Saudis Kigdom and those shaky Gulf states Sally?

    Who gave then full support Sally?

    So look again Sally you creating “argument”, continually fomented by lies – some half-lies, some full-out

58. Truth (wouldn’t Orwell love that handle?): who creates those “quasi-medieval tyrannies” like Saudis Kigdom and those shaky Gulf states Sally?

    Oh, well, we can be sure it wasn’t Arabs or Muslims, can’t we? Because Arabs never have any responsibility for their situation, do they? It’s always somebody else at fault, isn’t it? Why, if left to their own devices, without the interference of the Big Bad Wolf/US, the Arabs would have had modern democracies everywhere, with equal rights for women and gays, wouldn’t they? Instead, the poor Arabs are left with the only thing they seem to know how to do — blow up wedding parties and pizza parlors and school buses.

    You know what would be interesting? To hear an Arab defender for once eschew excuses, accept responsibility for their current admittedly sad situation, and urge people to work to change it through some other way than suicidal mass murder. E.g., maybe use the greenhouses the Israelis left behind in Gaza. Not that that’s likely to happen.

59. The Islamic states oppose Israel because Islam cannot accept a dhimmi nation within the Dar al Islam. Dhimmis (according to Islam) must always, and forever, be subservient to the superior Moslems.

    It’s the same reason they oppose the United States, and are waging jihad in places that have nothing to do with Israel/Palestine, such as Indonesia, India, the Philippines, Russia and even (if rumor is correct), China. As for the Palestinians, the Islamic states, such as Saudi Arabia, really care nothing for them, as witness how they’re treated in countries such as Syria. They’re simply using them as puppets, to continue the war against upstart Israel.

60. “I think it was Gore Vidal who said that a neocon is a liberal who got mugged by a black person twenty years ago.”

    That’s okay, a “progressive” is a liberal who looks the other way when hiring an illegal immigrant housekeeper, and neglects to pay her Social Security taxes…see Kimba Wood and Zoe Baird…

    but they jus’ loves their l’il brown helpers….

    There’s good and bad on both sides. These are specious arguments.

61. The State Department gave Saudi Arabia their full support. The same department that Chris would wish to see take a leading role in any negotiations.

    Even if the players seeking peace had the best intentions in the world, it would still result in the same thing as if they came into the negotiation harboring cynical sentiments.

62. It’s the same reason they oppose the United States, and are waging jihad

    More “argument”, continually fomented by lies – some half-lies, some full-out

    Talkinkamel, Invest your time more productively than writing like this nonsense

63. jimfocus:
    “I remember my fed days, the toughest talkers were always farthest from the action. “

    There you go misunderstanding our position. You like to make this out as a bunch of bullies acting tough. All we’re trying to do is look at the world as it actually is. Not pretend that if we stamp our feet and believe real hard, world harmony will be achieved.

    BTW: I’m a 25 yr. Army retiree, and if they’d accept me to go I would. Im also an atheist heathen, so sneaking references to what you think real Christians would or would not do is ineffective in my case. Good try though.

64. Harry, all you really have to do is “visualize world peace.”

    It’s true, I’ve seen it on bumper stickers.

65. All this self serving tripe about no cultures being inferior to any other. If you nick-name a teddy bear “Jesus” anywhere on the planet, no one is threatened with death.

    And for all the liberal preening on cultural relativism, I dont think the western world has children television programs quite like the ones the have in Palestine. http://snipurl.com/1ukqs

    Shinny happy people.

66. I assume, Harry, you just signed up for Iraq. Vidal’s point is that otherwise smart people experience a traumatic mugging, crime, or 9/11 and all rational thought goes out the window & all they want to do is strike out emotionally at anyone, guilty or innocent, compromise any law or ethic, to gain some feeling of revenge & comfort. Not necessarily at the actual perps, but if they just look like them–good enough. Then declare yourself the superior culture, master race sounds even better, & make plans to conquer the world. Dennis Miller Syndrome.The way the world is can be what you’ve inadvertently made it, especially if you’re the most powerful nation but you think you are the all-powerful nation. Hubris can kill you really quick.

    Don’t look now, but we’ve been taught a painful lesson the last 4 years.

67. Jimfocus, the enemy is radical Islam. No one is advocating elimination of all Muslims; however, the solution–best for all concerned–would be for Islam to undergo the same kind of Reformation that Christianity experienced, that is to say, elimination of (most of) the radical fundamentalists.

    Unless and until “moderate” Islam understands that its radical element threatens not only the West but the foundations of Islam itself, many will continue to conflate the radicals with the moderates, and a bloodbath will most likely ensue.

    And even the “moderates” will have problems with some of the tenets of Islam, which basically gives the “infidel” three choices:

    1. Convert
    2. Submit (dhimmitude)
    3. Die

    If you can divine how the rest of the world deals rationally with a “religion” that has those three things at its core, please share it with the rest of us. Oh, and “diplomacy” and “understanding” only work if they’re practiced by both sides.

68. jimfocus:
    “I remember my fed days, the toughest talkers were always farthest from the action. “

    No, that would be the “peacemakers,” until the action overtakes them. See “Czechoslovakia”.

69. Not the toughest talkers, just farthest from the action. Thought I’d clear that up.

70. Vidal is right about Vidal’s people in that they will strike out in such a manner. However, Vida’s ability to attribute actions to their opponents suffers from the same Leftist degradation as their other attempts.

71. Tuth, use your time more productively by actually refuting some of the arguments here.

    Are you saying Moslems aren’t fighting in Darfur, the Philippines and India? And that many Islamic leaders haven’t stated that they would like to see the world united under an all-encompassing Caliphate?

72. jimfocus:
    “Vidal’s point is that otherwise smart people experience a traumatic mugging, crime, or 9/11 and all rational thought goes out the window & all they want to do is strike out emotionally at anyone, guilty or innocent”

    I’m not sure what makes Gore Vidal the “go-to” expert on what motivates people other than for you, its a convenient way for you to explain away our motivation as being merely an overemotional over-response. I’m sure its comforting for you to believe that. I’ll bet your first response to the mass murder of 3K of your own countrymen (assuming you’re an American), was to blame us for why fanatic religious thugs chose to murder so many innocent people in the manner they chose. Were we angry about that? You bet. Id say our reaction was rational as well as our measured response.

    For all that blathering about the US lashing out randomly guilty or innocent, the internment camps for US citizens of Arabic decent have not materialized have they? No. Instead we have freed at least hundreds of thousands from Taliban and Bath party oppression.

    Liberals strike me as the kind of guys that upon hearing that their wives or girlfriends had been raped, would suggest they should have dressed less provocatively. Probably a Vidalism.

    Makes you want to go “boogah! boogha!” doesnt it Jim?

73. The internment camps haven’t appeared, but the stupid neocon Iraq misadventure did happen. And now we are in a far more critical situation. Now you guys want to start throwing troops into Palestine–now there’s a great idea. Do you think the majority of Iraqis really give a damn about the Bathists right now? Think they’re better off? Want us to leave?

    The response of many of you today is very emotional, which I think proves my point. Part of the terrorists’ game is to get you to not just react, but overreact, make bad judgements, & get caught in a quagmire. Iraq, anyone? What did Iraq have to do w/ 9/11? Nothing–but it was convenient to conflate the two, wasn’t it?

74. BTW,

    “Boogah! Boogah!” was said by Groucho Marx, not me.

    Yeeeeh Haaaah!
    –Slim Pickens & most neocons

75. I am curious as to how, absent respectful engagement, those of us who are not followers of Islam can bring about their religious Reformation for them. Western civilization had its periods when the roll of religion in politics was virtually all-powerful. The shift toward a more secular public sector and governments came about only through internal pressures.

    Evidence from Iraq alone shows that there are numerous, conflicting, understandings of the Islamic faith. No doubt various clerics within any given sect also have their own internal differences of opinion. There are, I have little doubt, the Muslim equivalent of good ol’ boys who raise Hell on Saturday night before taking the little woman to church on Sunday. It strikes me that the more we rely almost exclusively on force and denigrate diplomacy, the more we strengthen the hand of the forces we most want to destroy.

76. “I am curious as to how, absent respectful engagement, those of us who are not followers of Islam can bring about their religious Reformation for them.”

    Well, duh. Have we not practiced “respectful engagement” for the last 200 years? 300 years? When was the last time the West mounted a Crusade?

    Again, even if you’re a “moderate” Muslim, the choices for unbelievers are convert, submit, or die.

    How does one “engage” with that mindset, unless by converting, submitting or dying? I, for one, choose “none of the above.”

77. jimfocus:
    “The internment camps haven’t appeared, but the stupid neocon Iraq misadventure did happen.”

    Oh, here we go with that again. You mean AMERICAN “misadventure”. 30 Democrats also thought the invasion was worthwhile. How many times do you want to raise that canard? Was it a “misadventure”? We disagree, move on.

    “And now we are in a far more critical situation.”

    You mean you are. With the “surge” being as effective at curtailing the violence as it is, the empty “peace” slogans and platitudes seem horribly rediculous doesnt it? Watch as the occupation of Iraq becomes less of a campaign issue among democrats.

    “Now you guys want to start throwing troops into Palestine—now there’s a great idea.”

    I must’ve missed that. Which one of us has advocated sending US troops to Palestine?

    “Do you think the majority of Iraqis really give a damn about the Bathists right now? Think they’re better off? “

    Yes. So do they. Im sure you missed it, but reports have surfaced of Iraqi refugees returning to their former neighborhoods. That speaks volumes over bumper sticker platitudes.

    “Part of the terrorists’ game is to get you to not just react, but overreact, make bad judgements, & get caught in a quagmire.”

    The over-all goal is to cow us into inaction thru self doubt, which works remarkedly well with the more “progressive” members of western society. You know, the ones who think any reaction is a potential over-emotional over-reaction. Good job Jim. Good job.

    “What did Iraq have to do w/ 9/11? Nothing—but it was convenient to conflate the two, wasn’t it?”

    Whats convenient is the continued lie that anyone in the administration made that connection or that fighting Hussien’s Iraq was not then, or now in fact, fighting terrorism. It certainly is, as it always has been, the same thing.

    “Yeeeeh Haaaah!
    —Slim Pickens & most neocons”

    Oh please, by all means, make a snide refrence about toobacoo chewing NASCAR fans. I love that liberal cliche the best.

78. “Celebrate Diversity” unless you happen to want to include Red staters, citizens of flyover country, NASCAR fans, gun owners, Christians who go to church or Jews.

79. Stumbley, methinks you doth protest too much.

    The call to start an all out war is at the start of this thread.

    I’ve never mentioned fly over America (I live in STL) nor NASCAR, I’m a gun owner, & former law enforcement Fed officer. Huh? Maybe you’re assigning your own stereotypes?

    BTW, the Bush adm. just admitted making another nuclear threat mistake, w/ the country you all also want to bomb and nuke into the stone age, Iran, actually discontinued their nuclear weapons program in 2003, like they claimed all along. This is the Bush Adm admitting this–Whoops! Iraq, Iran–2 for 2 on mistaken nuclear intel.

    Yeeeeh Haaaah!!
    –all neocons who ever existed anywhere

80. “Iran, actually discontinued their nuclear weapons program in 2003,”

    I wonder why…could it be because of the “Iraq, Iran—2 for 2 “?

    Another way to look at it, no? Especially in light of Libya’s renunciation of nukes at around the same time…

    Plus, you seem to forget that Iran is still enriching uranium. It’s pretty easy to claim that you’ve “discontinued” your nuclear plans while still pursuing them, isn’t it?

81. BTW, jim–OT here–I have an excellent transportation opportunity in a scenic New York State location, central to some of the world’s largest businesses. Contact me offline at:
    stumbley@nigerianscam.com

82. CW: Evidence from Iraq alone shows that there are numerous, conflicting, understandings of the Islamic faith.

    Yes, yes there are. And so what?

    CW, you couldn’t have picked better initials. Would it help if we stipulated that, other things being equal, diplomacy is better than combat, peace is better than war, freedom is better than slavery, and sugar is sweeter than cauliflower? Would that move you off banality for a comment or two?

    Because the problems, of course, arise when other things are not equal — when “diplomacy” becomes just a dance and a shred of paper to cover ongoing atrocity, or when “peace” becomes just a euphemism to hide packs of frightened, endlessly prevaricating politicians, while the real threat steadily worsens. The simple fact is that nobody is relying “exclusively on force”, nor is anybody “denigrating diplomacy”, and saying that just puts you in the same brain-dead box as the other yee-haw trolls. What is being said is that force is sometimes the only reasonable option, and Iraq is one of those times. Argue with that if you will, but repeating empty platitudes is not an argument.

83. Iran, actually discontinued their nuclear weapons program in 2003,

    There are two points here.
    Firstly after Iraq invasion most those states that have problem with US start shut up, include Iran and Libya, some Iranians official stated that they helped US in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    Secondly all those black market and under the table nuclear / chemical biological supplier they take break of supplying their goods as US was tightened their efforts and bring to justice each one who involved with Iraq regime before so no one take the risk to deliver good even he knew the got maybe 300 times more paid for his goods.

    The only sources for Iran was the loos US supervision on Iran remaining old stuff that some went missing from few sites as UN agencies calling after 2003.

    But the question still remaining from where Iran got those 3000 centrifugal system some thing has a lot of doubt.

84. Stumbley, I’m not making the claims, your precious Bush Adm is, forcing them to cool their bellicose Iran rhetoric–hey! I’m just reporting here, deal w/ it neocons.

    Boogah! Boogah!
    –Groucho

85. Iraq has anthrax!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has nerve gas!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has yellowcake!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has bio WMD’s!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has mobile bio weapons!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq is building nuclear weapons!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq & Osama!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq is building nuclear bombs!! Uh, never mind.

    Iran is building nuclear bombs!! Uh, never mind.

    Blah Blah Blah

    Uh, neocons, just never mind!

    “We have a mine shaft gap!!”
    –George C. Scott, Dr. Strangelove

86. Iraq has anthrax!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has nerve gas!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has yellowcake!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has bio WMD’s!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq has mobile bio weapons!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq is building nuclear weapons!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq & Osama!! Uh, never mind.

    Iraq is building nuclear bombs!! Uh, never mind.

    Iran is building nuclear bombs!! Uh, never mind.

    As I’ve asked on the other thread:

    “Where did we get that information from?”

87. From the International Herald Tribune:

    A new assessment by American intelligence agencies made public Monday concludes that Iran halted its nuclear weapons program in 2003 and that the program remains on hold, contradicting an assessment two years ago that Tehran was working inexorably toward building a bomb.

    Where did we get that information from? How can we trust it if we can’t trust the pre-war intell on Iraq?

    I assure you: we would not have known this without currently being on their border in Iraq.

    There. The ability to come out with that intell and be able to trust it is one of the many good things for us to come out of our war in Iraq.

    I’m going to bring this happy news up when you guys say “Nothing good came out of Iraq!”

    I’ll say: “Oh, yeah, we learned that Iran was bluffing about their nuke production–it helps to be in the neighborhood instead of just flying over and listening to signals and stuff.”

    Yeah, I do know how this stuff works–as I alluded to earlier: I was a former Military Intelligence officer.

88. jimfocus:
    “I’m a gun owner, & former law enforcement Fed officer.”

    Something about how you express yourself, the things you say, the ideas you espouse, leads me to doubt that your statment is true.

    Boogah! Boogah!

89. Worked for the feds for 6 years, Harry, won the highest award given civilian employees twice. Put a lot of bad actors away. I’m a big outdoorsman, too. And I’m a liberal. Truth hurts.

    I don’t know Harry, there’s something about you, the way you state things, how you think—you sound angry and bitter. You need to go fight a war somewhere–I hear there’s one going on.

    Yeeeeeeh Haaaaah!
    –gratuitous slam at all America-lovin’ neocons

90. this latest, very abrupt nie report coming on the heels of annapolis, seems extremely strange considering iran’s longstanding rhetoric, connections and policies in relation to north korea, the khan network, the bragged about centrifuge program, well established deadly interference in iraq, and their longstanding use of hezbollah as a proxy army committing mass murder outside of their borders (from argentine jews to u.s. marines in lebanon)… i don’t generally buy into conspiracy theories, especially concerning dedicated and loyal americans serving in government and military capacities, but i can’t feel other than that this about face, now, by the intelligence community smacks of manipulation for internal and geopolitical so-called “diplomatic” purposes. at this stage of the game it is criminal to underestimate the enemy. while there should be no “rush” to war, as always, we will wake up in the worlds greatest mass murder fiasco someday by not respecting the reality of the nature and goals of the religious fanatics who now run iran…. they remain one of the more dangerously unpredictable heads of the hydra (saddam was an important one also). we will pay dearly for our naivete’…..

91. incidentally jimfocus, you claim to have “Put a lot of bad actors away.” if that’s the case then you are keenly aware of the nature of bullies, criminal psychos, and the consequences in allowing them to run amok…. so how do you reconcile this on a geopolitical level? in reality saddam was one of, possible the preeminent mass murderer in the last 4 decades, deadly enemy of america and israel, among others. cheney and rumsfeld on the other hand aren’t less, ultimately, than loyal and dedicated american government/military public servants, certainly not less than your equal (understatement….); you people demonize them as though they were the enemy…. very strange, a bit perverse…..

92. Shalom People,

    I can tell you that in Israel there has been a great deal of apathy regarding this peace confrence. This is very unsual for a country of six million Prime Ministers. It is a defense mechanism born of continous failures. However, lower-expectations can also be an asset – as it increases the chances for success, while at the same time minimizing the chance of cognitive dissonance occuring if the shit hits the fan (e.g. Oslo).

    For solution(s) to the Arab-Israeli conflict please read my newest entry More Creative Solutions to the Arab-Israeli Conflict: http://roiword.wordpress.com Feel free to leave your comments.

    Salaam,
    Roi

93. That NIE reversal is very interesting for a number of reasons, not the least of them being the year in which it now states that Iran “abandoned” its weapon-building nuclear program: 1993. What else happened in 1993? … Anyone? … Anyone?

    Here, let me help you out:

    When it comes to foreign policy the next US president has to remember that America is most effective when the world’s only policeman is seen as strong, as in the immediate aftermath of the Iraq invasion. Libya disarmed. The Khan nuclear exchange programme was exposed. Syria withdrew from Lebanon.

    And now we learn that Iran also decided to drop its WMD program, however temporarily. On the other hand:

    Problems multiplied when America looked unwilling to commit necessary troops to finish the first battles of the War on Terror. A weak America, tied down by do-nothing multilateralists, is the last thing our dangerous world needs.

    Of course, another lesson to be drawn is just the general uncertainty surrounding any intelligence, particularly in this critical region — an uncertainty that applies as well to this most recent assessment. As a TV talking head said recently, let’s hope it doesn’t take us another four years to find out that the Iranians have restarted their nuclear weapons program.

    (By the way, little Jimmy Focus is a pure and simple troll, and like all of that sad lot exists only to annoy — he, in particular, has the mental and emotional age of a ten year old, even if he can occasionally find an adult to write some of his comments for him. You’re not helping him by paying him the attention he so obviously craves.)

94. Excellent point, well put, Perfected. I don’t know if it transfers directly. One thing that’s always emphasized at the federal level, in my experience, was the rules. They were there for a reason, to be followed, and if followed correctly, that made our cases that much stronger. That meant more of the bad people getting put away. If you didn’t follow the rules, or actually broke the law in your zeal to nail someone, that was considered a violation of your oath, I know it sounds corny, but that’s how it was where I worked out of, KC. The US attny there at the time was very strict about it.

    That’s why I instinctively recoil at the pro-torture, end justifies the means glibness that pervades this site. As long as it’s the enemy, we should be able to do anything to them? Isn’t our system supposed to be better, has proven to be better than that?

    That tension between feds and locals that’s played up in the movies actually exists. As a rule, the locals, as we called them, were often mistrusted because of their bending or actually breaking of the rules, Miranda, etc. , that got cases thrown out, which could ruin months of investigation. Also, I was primarily in the federal court system, a much tougher system, with much tougher judges as a rule. Many times we would tell the locals, before testifying, to just get up on the stand and tell the truth–but a good share of the time they would wind up lying–drove us nuts, and harmed the case, and ultimately justice being served–the bully, punk, whomever, got off, or copped to a reduced sentence. Remember Mark Fuhrman? He got up in the stand and lied about racist remarks he’d made, should have just told the truth, and then OJ walks.

    Due process is what makes our system American, and I don’t think we should throw it out because we’re at war, we haven’t done that before–I’d argue that it makes our fight more credible, we take the higher road rather than debasing ourselves to the level of the enemy–and we beat them more effectively that way. I guess I feel that a lot of you need to believe more in the very system you say you love and want to preserve. Avoid coming down w/ Dennis Miller Syndrome. In your fear and zeal you may be tearing down what we are all about.

    I cetainly may be wrong, hope I’m not proven wrong–but I think the experience applies to an extent with the ME war.

95. Actually (ahem), that year was 2003, not 1993. This time I can’t even use the lack of a preview for an excuse….

96. Sally, keep that venom coming, you nasty, nasty neocon.

97. Worked for the feds for 6 years, Harry, won the highest award given civilian employees twice.

    People in the military look down on others for quoting their “awards” as a bolster for their political arguments. So that probably won’t work all that well with people like Harry.

98. One thing that’s always emphasized at the federal level, in my experience, was the rules.

    That is true since anyone that agrees to abide by rules would naturally see the international law and justice system as more preferable than vigilantism. However, this is because the Feds operate in a civilized America, for the most part. Where you protect the law because the law protects you. In the thirld world and UN dominated protectorates, there is no such thing as the “law” except what you make of it. Even in Europe, the Rule of Law is making way for the Rule of the Mob. Whether organized or not.

    Jacksonian honor or just simple American Western honor circa pre 1900s, only agrees to treat other people with honor if those people have honor. It is tribal in nature, essentially. Those that dont’ conform to your notions of civilization or honor, don’t get treated with the benefits of civilization or honor. The UN does not believe in such a process or that such a process has any use in the modern world. Other Americans disagree.

    The current American policy is to treat everyone with honor, even if they are backstabbing traitors and people like Chirac and Kofi Annan. In return for Bush’s compassion, people accuse the neo-cons of violating international sanction and writ. This is, inevitably, what always happens if you treat dishonorable people as if they had honor in the first place. You will always be disappointed in the end.

    It is a luxury, after all. You can treat criminals to the justice system because American prosperity and power allows it. Yet America did not come about the scene instantaneously. Much war and death and suffer resulted in America. One can’t transplant a whole civilization’s “rules” to the third world and expect it to work. Not work “just the same” but “work at all”.

    They were there for a reason, to be followed, and if followed correctly, that made our cases that much stronger.

    Such is how it is done in the United States, where the rule of law and the republic has stood for centuries. That is a good thing. It is different, though, if you are trying to create the rule of law. Inevitably the descendants of pioneers become more corrupt and decadent, to the point where they no longer need pioneers because there is no frontier to pioneer. You need a different kind of person in peace, than in war. You need a peacetime general, not a wartime general.

    It is two different world views concerning the chaos that is the modern world. One is sourced from modern civilization and decadence. The other, my kind, is sourced from the Old War, the Ancient World of the Greeks and Romans where crucifixion was a nice way to maintain law and order.

99. Jimfocus:

    As long as it’s the enemy, we should be able to do anything to them? Isn’t our system supposed to be better, has proven to be better than that?

    Whoa right there: foreign policy and especially warfare are not legal matters. The DoD is not the DoJ.

    This isn’t a ‘law enforcement’ matter. We don’t have to establish any probable cause or ‘burden of proof’ here….

    You are misapplying your experience.

    This pernicious cross polination of military and law enforcement has given us commando police departments in the US and commados who arrest people in Iraq.

    There are no ‘suspects’ on a battlefield, just ‘targets’.

100. jimfocus:

     Waterboarding is not torture (and only three prisoners have undergone waterboarding since 2003). Three squares, provided Q’urans and air conditioning at Gitmo is not torture. Abu Ghraib was disgusting, but not torture, and the animals responsible were tried and punished. The United States does not torture, and you know better. Atrocities happen, are revealed, and the guilty punished. To claim otherwise is simply wrong. As for torture, real torture?

     Ask John McCain what torture is.

101. Fascinating … a thread about the Annapolis meeting on the Palestinian/Israeli situation began with a pack of suggestions that amounted to saying, “Forget diplomatic talks, they’re a waste of time. Just kill all the damned Palestinians and be done with it.”

     Then it quickly forgot about Annapolis and moved to talking about Iraq, with about the same degree of nuanced, critical, thinking. “THEY can’t be reasoned with or negotiated with, only hunted down and killed.”

     I particularly liked the bit about how “Inevitably the descendants of pioneers become more corrupt and decadent …” presumably this is about us here in America because we no longer solve disputes with six shooters and lynch mobs and now rely on the rule of law. How corrupt and decadent! Yep, not pure and noble like summary execution by a lynch mob.

     All this makes me look forward to a warm and fuzzy neocon future where suspected Islamic terrorists (they were praying to Allah, what more proof do you need) are being tortured and crucified on reality television programs where contest winners not only receive prize money, but also the chance to either waterboard or nail a big spike through a dirty Muslim’s feet. Nah, that overstates things, I know. They’ll just disappear to some off-shore facility out of the eyes of those running dog lackies in the MSM and will never be seen again.

     And you complain, Neo, about how intolerant liberals are.

102. Hello Y,

     If you go back & read my response, I mention my awards w/ the feds because Harry had just got through calling me a liar. I didn’t just throw them out there…plus I have no trouble w/ discussing my history on here to a point, tho I notice some of you demand the info then pounce all over the person who puts it out there, another neocon inconsistency? Also, I’m a therapist, deal w/ sociopaths all the time–I know what a bad person is, under no bleeding heart delusions.

     Also, I said at the start, I don’t know if my experience working w/i the law transfers directly to the war situation, and I may cetainly be wrong–but because of my experience, I tended to side w/ applying the law, rules to the war situation. You can’t separate war and the law, they are always intertwined.

     John McCain is against waterboarding and torture, has been outspoken since all this came out–yes he does know a thing or two about torture! In fact McCain and Lindsey Graham articulate my feelings on war and the law far better than I can–Graham is very deep on the subject.

     Gray, your definition of “targets” violates the US Military Code, The Rules of Engagement ordered in Iraq, and the Geneva Convention. There are even rules in war, as silly as that sounds, and our forces have implemented those rules successfully.

103. And you complain, Neo, about how intolerant liberals are.

     CW: Hahahahaha! You made up a bunch of slippery-slope nonsense and then blamed us for it!

     Nobody will make fun of Muslims! They chop your head instead of turning the other cheek–if there is once thing that characterizes the media, Hollywood and artists it is moral cowardice.

     So, since you are Mr. Diplomacy, can you tell us which diplomatic initiative had an effect on the ‘Israel/Palestine problem’?

     Thanks in advance….

104. They’ll just disappear to some off-shore facility out of the eyes of those running dog lackies in the MSM and will never be seen again.

     And you complain, Neo, about how intolerant liberals are.

     Well, intolerant and, if this is any indication, more than a little wacked. The funny thing is that these are the guys who like to go on about how “reality-based” they all are!

105. Gray, your definition of “targets” violates the US Military Code, The Rules of Engagement ordered in Iraq, and the Geneva Convention.

     How could that be? I didn’t even define it.

     You rely too much on the US Code to define legalities of warfare rather that the Laws of Ground Warfare. I don’t believe you are familiar with the Laws of Ground Warfare and I don’t think anyone understands how the Geneva Convention applies to counterinsurgent warfare.

     The GC applies to armed conflict between uniformed national services. My ID card has a ‘Geneva Conventions’ category on it. What category does an AQI fighter fall in? Do you know?

     There are even rules in war, as silly as that sounds,

     Yes, but it isn’t at all the same as US Federal Law Enforcement regs.

     Of course and our forces have implemented those rules successfully.

     What?! I though we were atrocity commitin’, baby killin’, PTSD sufferin’ genociders according to most of the dirty leftists here….

106. John McCain is against waterboarding and torture, has been outspoken since all this came out—yes he does know a thing or two about torture!

     Yeah, it’s like a rape victim being a sex-therapist….

     Please: That is just another application of the usual leftist identity-politics nonsense: “Of course he understands, he’s a victim of it….”

     I guess he is also an expert on real estate law and Campaign Finance ‘cuz he’s one of the Keating Five.

     In fact McCain and Lindsey Graham articulate my feelings on war and the law far better than I can—Graham is very deep on the subject.‘

     If the usual baby-boomer incorrect application of the “lessons of vietnam” is ‘very deep’.

107. Hahaha! Here’s something good Lindsay Graham said:

     “”Here is the one thing I can tell you for sure as a military lawyer,” Graham said, as quoted in the Congressional Record. “A POW or an enemy combatant facing law of armed conflict charges has not been given the right of habeas corpus for 200 years because our own people in our own military facing court-martials, who could be sentenced to death, do not have the right of habeas corpus. It is about military law. I am not changing anything. I am getting us back to what we have done for 200 years.”

     No habeus corpus for the dopes in Gitmo–but he did confuse “enemy combatants”, which can be ‘legal’ or ‘illegal’ combatants, and POWs which by definition are legal combatants prior to POW status being accepted by their surrender….

108. because our own people in our own military facing court-martials, who could be sentenced to death, do not have the right of habeas corpus.

     Actually, he’s wrong here.

     There is a right of habeas corpus in the UCMJ and, if I recall, the Supreme Court earlier this century granted habeas corpus in some cases under UCMJ.

     How do I know these things and he doesn’t?

109. Your mocking of John McCain and his service to the country speaks volumes. Graham was a reserve JAG officer from South Carolina, hardly a Viet Nam era hippie.

     Gray, you said there are no suspects, just targets in Iraq–that violates everything in sight.

     All of you have made good points, this is a very tough issue, and like I said, I don’t have a lot of answers, just thoughts. Given that, it’s amazing that our forces have abided by the rules 99.9% of the time, that’s an outstanding achievement.

110. Your mocking of John McCain and his service to the country speaks volumes.

     Yes, he served honorably and distinguished himself in his service in the Navy. You can’t take that away from him.

     But as a self-serving politician, he’s a swindler as a member of the Keating 5 and took bribes. Then he got McCain-Feingold passed because “he understands what money does to politicians.” ‘Cuz he’s a crook….

     Let’s salute tailgunner Joe McCarthy for his valiant “Service to the Nation’ (crickets….).

     It’s Identity Politics nonsense.

     Graham was a reserve JAG officer from South Carolina, hardly a Viet Nam era hippie.

     So what, you were admittedly ‘a federal officer’, now look at you.

     Anyone can succombe to Bush Derangement Syndrome, but baby-boomers are most susceptible….

     Gray, you said there are no suspects, just targets in Iraq—that violates everything in sight.

     Actually it doesn’t. ROE refers to engaging or not engaging people on the battlefield with lethal force, not to placing them under arrest.

     ROE is not synonymous with ‘probable cause’.

111. Gray, you know and I know you can’t shoot anything you want on the battlefield, especially in the Iraq situation where civilians are everywhere.
     Again, you neocons on here think insults mean an argument, you guys always drag them out when your talking points run dry, very telling. Experience and education do count for something, Gray, you seem more than a little defensive, is that because you lack them (experience & educ.)? Or are you just out of the game?

     Hubbah! Hubbah!
     –Groucho

112. jim, you must be a heckuva therapist!

     Hubbah, hubbah, indeed.

113. jimfocus:
     “Given that, it’s amazing that our forces have abided by the rules 99.9% of the time, that’s an outstanding achievement.”

     Thats because our culture, as practiced is superior to that of the region they work in. This despite all the warnings that the warmongers and torturers running policy is dragging us down to the level of the people we’re fighting. In fact, our guys spend an awful lot of time trying to impress upon the host military rudimentary civil ethics. You know, the stuff they’ve probably never been exposed to before. Are “waterboarding” techniques included? I dont know. I do know from what I’ve heard, it would probably be a superior cultural improvement over interrogation as historically practiced in the region.

     I withdrawal my remarks doubting your authenticity as a former Federal agent, but a little amazed with the lack of diplomacy in your arguments. You deride us about how quickly you think we result to insults,. yet your admonition appears selective and your own remarks are often laced with smug sarcasm. Talk about your hypocrites.

     Gray is right in that dealing with “bad actors” over seas cannot be confused with how we deal with them within our own borders. But before you accuse me of using that as an excuse to apply any and all means to obtain our ends, you are be reminded again that no one here has argued that established rules of warfare should be discarded, or that ROE be ignored. We argue that armed conflict, once engaged, should be vigorously pursued to a successful (for us, od course) conclusion Thats not very controversial an idea is it?

114. Harry, I don’t think we really disagree that much, some on here think it’s an attack on our troops if you mention the rules of war.

     BTW, I readily admit my sarcasm, and how lame it can be, but that’s me–I love Wm. Buckley & Gore Vidal, who hated each other, but are actually very alike. Now those two, there’s major league sarcasm. I don’t call anyone fascists, Nazis, babykillers, if you notice–do I poke gentle fun at some of the “out there” neocon screeds on here, well, yeah–it’s too irresistable.

     If you want Stumbley, I’ll post some of my awards and credentials as a therapist, but I don’t think you’d be impressed. In my opinion, my patients love and adore me. And unlike poor neo, my colleagues admire me 100%. So there. Also, some of you guys writing “Hubbah Hubbah” & “yeeeh haaah” in your posts have me in hysterics–too funny, man.

     Nyuk! Nyuk!
     –Sigmund Freud

     “We must move beyond the outdated notions of freedom and dignity.”
     –B. F. Skinner, neoconservative

     (I can guess Sally’s or Stumbley’s post: : “Nyuk Nyuk, indeed!!” I’m really hoping Sally actually writes “nyuk” in a venemous post–please, if there is a God…)

115. If you want Stumbley, I’ll post some of my awards and credentials as a therapist, but I don’t think you’d be impressed. In my opinion, my patients love and adore me. And unlike poor neo, my colleagues admire me 100%.

     Holy cow! You really are a therapist?! I thought Harry was just kidding about that.

     What do you specialize in?

     Helping people get over their Patriotic Tendencies?

     How to Give Up and Love Baby-boomer Nihilism and Snark?

     Or maybe a ‘self directed exploration’ of:

     If It Isn’t Perfect It Sucks (‘Cuz of the Jews)?

     How about a group encounter of: “It’s all Bush’s fault!” with primal scream….

116. “In my opinion, my patients love and adore me.”

     Well, they’re certainly in good company, apparently. I’d imagine you’re a little like a dermatologist, then–your patients never die, but they never get better, either.

     Nyuk, nyuk. Just for you.

117. Given that, it’s amazing that our forces have abided by the rules 99.9% of the time, that’s an outstanding achievement.

     Thanks for recognizing that.

118. Gray and Harry, I know you two don’t like certain people, but that’s not a real good reason to get sidetracked from the issues. No matter what people say, their actions and their decisions will produce plenty to talk about.

119. OK, Stumbley! Good one, nice shot back at me. I laughed. Touche.

120. Gray, you and Stumbley are cracking me up–very funny stuff. BTW, what do you know about Primal Scream, very weird stuff.

     I specialize in abnormal psychology and behavior disorders, so I could help a lot of you on this–no, I stopped myself, too easy and a little mean. You guys are on fire today, killing me.

     “You g*dd*m queen!”
     –Wm Buckley

     “Thank you!”
     –Gore Vidal

121. Stumbley, I just read that post again…

     “Hubbah Hubbah, indeed!”

     omigod–I die every time I read that!

     “Now that’s funny!”
     –Jack Benny

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