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Our men’s and women’s ice hockey teams reflect a larger political divide — 73 Comments

1. To be fair to the women’s team they were certainly wearing the flag and solidly singing the anthem during the medal ceremony — no Rapinoe-like idiocy. But I’ll never understand turning down an opportunity to be invited into the Oval Office — hell I’d even go if puddinghead Biden had invited me.

2. Don’t know if she plays hockey…but she does play hardball…and she really, really wants everyone to know just how much of a sick little puppy she is…(i.e., if one didn’t know already…).

   Curious that…but I guess it pays the bills…and provides no little satisfaction and a tremendous sense of self worth! Alas…

   “Candace Owens slammed over new series that ‘investigates’ Erika Kirk: ‘Pure evil’”—
   https://nypost.com/2026/02/24/us-news/candace-owens-slammed-over-evil-new-erika-kirk-investigation/

   A neo-Crusade to liberate the Holy Land? Oh well, file under: Pursuit of Happiness(TM)

3. Why wait for middle age?

   Be an early onset AWFL!

   Spinsterhood is powerful.

   Your future cats will adore you.

4. Tony Dokoupil made a fine tribute to the Men’s team on CBS news (see video at link): https://x.com/i/status/2026349637553049870

5. On another personal note, most of my acquaintances both young and old (I am among the old ones, by the way) opt not to discuss Trump much at all. I myself dislike the man and his apparent governing philosophy pretty intensely–and I say that as a life-long, fully committed, and unexceptionable conservative with mostly libertarian leanings–therefore preferring the smallest, least intrusive government possible.

   I think it is entirely possible to have power-hungry blunderers from all possible sides of any political spectrum; Trump’s not being a leftist does not make him a virtuous leader.

   And my husband of nearly 51 happy years and I have not one cat.

6. Betsybounds:

   I’m curious – what do you see as Trump’s “apparent governing philosophy”? And what do you see as leftists’ “apparent governing philosophy”? Similarities and differences?

   What would you prefer for a conservative “apparent governing philosophy”? These are not rhetorical or sarcastic questions; I’m truly and sincerely interested.

7. For members of the US women’s hockey team to have the opportunity to visit the Oval Office, meet the President of the United States, and be honored at the State of the Union would have been the experience of a lifetime. It would have been something to tell their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren about, regardless of how they personally felt about the president at the time. I guarantee that in future years they will regret this decision. I’m guessing that some of them would privately have liked to have gone, but were intimidated by a few loudmouth Trump haters.

8. For all the grinding of female teeth and rage of female leftists about President Trump it seems highly anomalous about his perceived character the number of assertive and competent women who work in his administration in high positions.

   He has large personality characteristics that are off putting, but he ain’t a FJB, or a disingenuous knavish Lightbringer, a phony Algorithm, a mad mullah mayor, or a dyslexic racist.

9. I agree that missing a chance like this is sad. At least their message declining is respectful and polite.

10. Barry, I cannot imagine how someone comes to be like Candace Owens. She’s crazy about the Kirk assassination, and her fixation with “Zionists,” real and imaginary, is beyond bizarre.

11. Trump displayed his usual sly off-the-cuff humor:
    __________________________________

    “I must tell you, we’re going to have to bring the women’s team, you do know that,” Trump was heard saying over the phone to the men’s team…

    Trump also joked, “I do believe I probably would be impeached,” if he didn’t invite the women’s team as well as the men.

    https://www.foxnews.com/sports/us-womens-hockey-team-declines-trumps-state-union-invitation
    __________________________________

    Trump has the most comfortable public presence of any president I can remember since JFK. And Trump doesn’t have an adoring press backing him.

    Clinton was good, but he did not seem nearly as authentic.

12. Three of the US hockey men’s team are on Fox News this evening. Nice guys.

13. #LoveTrumpsHate

    #HateLovesAbortion

    #HateTrumpsLove

    Q.E.D.

14. neo:

    I thank you for your interest in my points. I am gonna think about how to address your questions, and will get back to you.

    Betsybounds

15. thats the tell isnt it,

    the reaction to the hockey victory as well as alyssa liu;s seems to be voight kampf test

    Yeah Candace seems possessed in her mania, maybe she got it from Kanye, but it was a slow acting virus,

    what are substantive objectiions you have to his policies, is it economic nationalism, well that was baked in the cake

    for one I don’t think the promotion of more drug decriminalization is a good move, but there is really isn’t objection on the other side,

    will the brinksmanship regarding Iran is a little bit concerning because the Ayatollah is not one who is willing to give up anything substances,

16. I’ll be interested to see betsybounds response. Every single person that I have spoken with about Trump always makes it a matter of style and not substantive disagreement with policy. Every single one.

17. Every time a Dem goes off about Trump’s “character” remember that two of their party’s biggest heroes the last 50 years were Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton.

18. huxley: “Clinton was good, but he did not seem nearly as authentic.”

    Yeah he was always a little smarmy (at least). But I think because of his background he could connect with middle Americans in a way that now seems completely lost to the Democrat party. Trump is a real one-r. Rich brash NYC real estate mogul yet somehow is able to bond to the common man. Maybe it’s the Queens thing, Archie Bunker sprung to life and elected to the White House …

19. Almost everyone I know hates Trump.

    Here in Indiana, almost everyone we know is a Trump supporter. I like Indiana.

    For the record, I like Trump’s policies *and* his style. I think he’s a funny guy, with a great sense of humor. I get a kick out of him.

20. The statement from the Women’s team was pure PR. Don’t want to loose any of their fans. And, them being young White Women (are there any of any Minority?), I imagine that 99% are Trump haters.

21. My ex-wife won an Olympic Gold Medal, was invited on an idividual basis and went to the White House, under Carter and she is not a Democrat. She didn’t let politics get in the way of an honor.

22. Power hungry (evil) blunderers ….

    Personified and exemplified by, wait for it, Ms Retribution and Revenge,Susan Rice.

    Is that who you all were thinking of?

23. FOAF on February 24, 2026 at 7:46 pm:
    “Every time a Dem goes off about Trump’s “character” remember that two of their party’s biggest heroes the last 50 years were Ted Kennedy and Bill Clinton.”
    I think you can extend that back to 65 years and include JFK as well.

24. I mean no disrespect to reader Betsybounds, but I suspect her sources of information on President Trump would most likely consist of the usual suspects in corporate media. Since she is apparently a member of the Neoneo fan club, however, I concede I could be mistaken. But perhaps she comes here for the ballet pieces not the politics. But in any case, I eagerly await her response to Our Lovely and Vivacious Hostess’ inquiry. It may be that I learn something as well.

25. Betsy cares about “virtue”, hence Betsy is a leftist whether she realizes it or not

26. I can’t at the moment find the X post which pointed out that, first, the American women’s hockey team had already been invited to the White House prior to the men’s victory. Unlike the all-NHL men’s team, the women’s team is a mix of women’s professional league players and current NCAA players. That latter group had already lost several weeks of classes and college games. They will reportedly go to the White House at a later date, or at least that option is open to them.

27. RE: Today’s relationship between Men and Women

    I don’t know if this interview is real or if it is a put on, but I have the horrible feeling that it might actually be real, and, if so, it explains a lot. *

    * See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjNLopUOMTo

28. Snow

    In the comments someone states it’s a comedy sketch called The Love Architect Gets Real.

    https://m.youtube.com/@thelovearchitectgetsreal

29. Kate, I had heard the same; the women’s team was invited first, and will go at a later time.
    It’ll be interesting to see that! I hope we get to.
    There may have been some women who wanted to go to the WH yesterday.
    If so, my heart goes out to them
    Being in the minority — not a “Karen” and TDS-free — in a team setting must be tough.

30. I recently saw a bit of mass entertainment directed by the actress Kate Winslet (who also appears as a character). The screenplay was written by her son. It was about a scene I’ve seen several times in my stupid life, the last days of someone terminally ill. Not my profession, but of the moribund people I’ve seen, none approached the level of lucidity Helen Mirren displayed as the title character. This particular lady has a husband who is not dying (this year). By all appearances, they live in their own home with their son (the youngest of their four children). Somebody’s earnings paid off the mortgage on that home and paid the bills for about 30 years of child rearing. Someone’s pension and social security is providing them an income as none of the three appear to have wage employment. Well, the husband of this very lucid woman with her precise elocution behaves as if he hasn’t a clue that his wife (diagnosed three years earlier) has terminal cancer and also guzzles beer, sleeps, bellows at the television, clowns around some with his grandchildren, and is occasionally told to ‘shut up’ by his middle daughter. The daughters have all been appended to a man for some time. The oldest daughter is a comically new age yoga instructor whose undepicted ‘partner’ is in a roughly similar line of work. He’s departed some months earlier and she reacted by hiring a gigolo to get pregnant, a project which amazingly succeeded (given she appears to be pushing 50). Sister two is some sort of business executive married to a like person; her husband is abroad on business and is never seen. The third daughter has a scrum of kids but there is no indication of what if anything she and her husband do for work; he’s a peripheral character who runs errands for his wife and smiles while she berates him. The son of this old couple is given a benign if not altogether respectful portrayal as the person who isn’t bickering with anyone else and cares about his mother’s welfare. Lurking around in one scene after another is a (male) hospital nurse who is also the one who ‘cares’. (The bizarre aspect of the plot is that a woman on palliative care is permitted at her own discretion to occupy a bed in an acute care hospital for weeks on end). The hospital nurse is black, btw. You’ve already guessed why the son gets gentler treatment by the screenwriter. The last scene is a family gathering a year later with everyone there but the deceased grandmother, along with the hospital nurse. The hospital nurse and the son are bouncing around the oldest daughter’s new child and they kiss during the course of this.
    ==
    The foregoing encompasses the Official Idea of our time. Every element of this was predictable in advance. It is congruent with an element of street-level girl culture buttressed with magazine-article feminist blather. Kate Winslet’s son is named ‘Joe Anders’. I cannot think of what sort of nasty accident would be condign punishment for him and for his mother.

31. neo, et al.: Forgive me for being a bit slow in getting back to you on these Trump matters. I had some things coming up last evening that took time, and then (being the old lady that I am), I was a bit early-to-bed.

    To Steve: I do not come here for the ballet–although it is of course a nice bonus. No, I come here to see the political/philosophical exchanges; they are generally interesting and informative. And I certainly consider myself to be reading posts by people with whom I generally agree in principle.

    To Deprastic: I am not a leftist. I have never been a leftist. A quick overview on that matter: I regard leftism as the political application of Original Sin. Note that the heart of Original Sin is seduction into believing that we can know how to be like God: “Did God tell you that if you ate the fruit of that tree, you would DIE? Did He tell you THAT?? Why, you will not DIE!!! You will BE LIKE HIM!!!!” (Gen. 3:1-5, paraphrased). And THAT was the single irresistible temptation that led Eve, and then Adam, to all the other sins–including the heart and soul of leftism. Leftists think they know how to be like God–and accordingly, do not NEED God, Himself.
    Furthermore, Donald Trump is NOT the essence of non-leftism.

    To Neo, et al.: I consider Trump’s governing philosophy to comprise a belief that he is the only smart and competent individual in government at the present time. He submits to no one, and conversely, he expects everyone to submit to him–including people outside the Constitutional Executive Branch (e.g. the Supreme Court). He may (note: MAY) allow a bit of time and space to effect persuasion, but he does not submit. Accordingly, I think we should remember that opposing the left is not, of itself and by definition, the single thing that makes any person and/or group of people virtuous and admirable leader(s).

    Donald Trump began his second administration by issuing a record number of Executive Orders within the first year; it is true that other presidents (four, to be exact–including FDR) have issued greater numbers of such Orders in toto, but not in their first year in office. This man hit the dictatorial ground running–as he had promised he would do.

    To name a few specific examples: (1) He decided to attach penalty fees to employers who hired immigrants under the H-1B program by assessing them with a $100,000-per-hiree fee to keep them from having saved money by hiring less-costly foreigners for positions rather than more-costly Americans–because hey, America First, right? The problem with that is that a large percentage of these hirees work in technological and/or STEM fields–and the problem with THAT is that American graduates are notoriously poorly educated and arguably under-competent or incompetent. I know this from some personal experience, both of my own and of colleagues. I am a retired geologist with an MS from a highly rated university. I know very well how hard it is to find competent American graduates–and a non-trivial cause of THAT situation is the left’s decades-long, successful undermining of American education (Affirmative Action, for starters–but of course it has gone on from there, and gotten worse). There is no unified effort to keep high-wage Americans out of American job markets through the H-!B visa program. It is instead an effort to obtain competent employees for difficult fields–and again, from experience, I include medical practice. And the H-1B point extends beyond the technological aspects and goes into plain old communication skills, by the way.

    I understand that the following example is still in progress, so its formulation is neither clear nor complete. But Trump’s determination to eliminate the Executive Branch’s Department of Education is a serious mess, and may amount to being a blunder. He is evidently working on eliminating the Department itself–but there does not seem to be a simultaneous effort to eliminate the Department’s missions. He is instead simply moving those missions to other Cabinet-level Departments; the management of Student Loans is an example. The arguable fact is that the government should not be involved in funding loans for higher-education indebtedness AT ALL; some of its side effects so far have been seriously negative.

    Just a couple of other points, here–brief, but possible points for further discussion should they arouse any interest: (1) I think there is some evidential reason to suspect that Trump is either wholly ignorant, or insufficiently aware, of taqiyya when it comes to his much-ballyhooed Abraham Accords with some Sunni Islam states in the Middle East. Assuming that any of those people are willing to accept the existence of Israel as a permanent state, both established for and managed mostly by Jews, is a result of either ignorance or denial. (2) Trump’s first administration’s management of the COVID mess was. . .well, a mess. I offer no further details on that one at this time, mostly because of discussion intricacy and length. But there is evidence to support the assumption. (3) Trump is currently working on trying to make all national elections federalized in management; this is against the Constitution (and is not the only example of such positions the man considers himself free to take–i.e., damning the SCOTUS ruling against his tariffs in his State of the Union speech last night). It all at least SUGGESTS that he, himself, does not consider the Constitution to be binding upon him.

32. I think that “Betsybounds” is a troll.

33. I am gonna inject another point, here: The SAVE Act. I understand the generalized displeasure and unease current election-participation rules generate. But Trump’s trying to take them all in hand at once is arguably biting off a lot more at one time than we can chew effectively. For example, requiring people to prove their own citizenship in order to register to vote is a nice, and defensible, idea–but it ignores the facts that a great many people lack access to such proofs. For example, there are huge numbers of people who do not have American Passports, which are suggested as being required as proof-of-citizenship. In addition, it is not easy–and in some cases, not even possible–for a lot of entirely legal American citizens to document their birth certificates. So the outcomes of such requirements will almost certainly include preventing legal American citizens from voting in their own country’s elections. Let us remember that this country has, virtually since its beginning, taken with pride the stance that we do not require people to be able to “Show me your papers, please.”

    A far better approach would be to take a step-by-step approach to the illegal-voting mess: First of all, do away with voting-by-mail. Second, require that all voters vote in person ON ELECTION DAY. Third, make reasonable accommodations for American military members and other citizens who have obligations preventing them from voting ON ELECTION DAY–such as allowing them to vote within a two-or-so week period BEFORE (NOT after) Election Day.

    Moving along to include citizenship proofs can be approached gradually, and under conditions that are possible for citizens to meet.

34. Selfy: You are full of soup–and that is being kind.

    And anyway, your evidence is. . . what, exactly?

35. Anyway, I have not mouthed off much here–or at all, really–until after Neo herself–the hostess, here, after all–asked me a few questions last night. I do not think that is how trolls operate.

    When I was a kid, my nickname among friends on the street where I was raised was “Betsy Blabbermouth.” So: Some things never change. 😀

36. Golly gee Betsy, as a Registered, Professional, Licensed, MS Geologist, still working, my anecdote on getting a certified Birth Certificate is that it is Not Difficult. Not that being a MS Geologist has anything to do with this issue.

    Mine is from a place that wasn’t a state at the time, from a hospital that changed names, from a father and mother that left that place (Alaska) less than a year after I was born (courtesy of the US Army).

    Are there any other progressive/Democrat talking points do you wish to share?

    We already know your aquaintenses dislike or dispise President Trump.

37. Betsybounds isn’t a troll, but someone who doesn’t have a lot of the same premises others here have. There’s things she’s says that are wrong, of course, but that’s true of any of us and doesn’t make her a troll.

    Two things I’d point out as wrong:

    There is no unified effort to keep high-wage Americans out of American job markets through the H-!B visa program. It is instead an effort to obtain competent employees for difficult fields

    This is false, and the way we know is that Americans with lots of experience and good educations get laid off and replaced with H1-Bs–I worked for an employer that was sued over it, and did it more than once–and it is very specific job markets that are the vast majority of H1-Bs and not evenly spread over all jobs requiring a good education and some brains. There’s a reason that the vast majority are specifically Indians in IT. Indian H1Bs are not actually better educated or better at IT than Americans. What they are is a) hired by other Indians through social connections and b) second-class employees that don’t have to be paid competitively because they have to go back to India if they lose their jobs and they can’t easily jump ship if better salaries are offered somewhere else. Employers don’t like having to compete for employees and H1Bs have been abused as a mechanism to reduce that competition.

    If there actually were a shortage of competent and qualified Americans they would not be laying them off to replace them with H1B Indians. That’s what “shortage” means–there aren’t enough. If you are laying people off and replacing them with new ones there are TOO MANY.

    For example, requiring people to prove their own citizenship in order to register to vote is a nice, and defensible, idea–but it ignores the facts that a great many people lack access to such proofs.

    This also is false, and note that she offers no numbers whatsoever. She’s talking about maybe 1 American in 10,000 or 100,000 or a million who actually could not get a birth certificate or a passport, and that those people have already had to jump through that hoop somehow if they ever held a job and have access to an acceptable alternative.

    Every state is different, but in my state you can order your birth certificate online and it costs $25 unless you qualify for a free one. It comes in the mail. Americans actually born outside the United States might find this harder to do, but not if they were naturalized citizens: they jumped through that hoop years ago as part of the naturalization process and have no trouble proving their citizenship.

    At the same time she wants to restrict voting to election day and a few people who can show what she thinks is a good reason, but that restriction is probably going to affect just as many people has having to have proof of citizenship would. So her argument contradicts itself: she wants voting harder for people with citizens with scheduling conflicts but not for non-citizens without.

38. Don’t be AWFL.

39. Niketas Choniates: I thank you for your kind response; I do not agree with everything you say, but you do make some quite valid points–and, in any case, there is nothing wrong with honest disagreement regarding these matters.

    I recognize your points regarding the H-1B. A non-trivial amount of my information comes from, as I said, personal experience–as well as from a previously non-mentioned good friend of mine who is a practicing immigration attorney. One of the serious problems high-level employers encounter, based on both my own experience and that of friends and colleagues–experiences of which I have heard first-hand–is educational insufficiency among American graduates. They do not have adequate communication skills, nor adequate mastery of STEM education. There may be–and evidently are–large numbers of H-1B immigrants who fall outside those professional parameters. I am not able to address them, and defer to your points. But nevertheless, I think the accumulated and increasing inadequacy of American education systems becomes more apparent all the time these days.

    I must remain firm, though, on my statement that there are large numbers of entirely valid American citizens who do not now have, and have never tried to get, American Passports; we do not all travel abroad. It is arguably less demanding to require birth certificates, fair enough. I do NOT want voting to be “harder” for people with scheduling conflicts. But I DO think that people should be free to take time off from work and/or around any other hindrance in order to vote within voting schedule constraints. And I am adamant in believing that voting-by-mail should be eliminated–there are not many ways to make illegal voting, by non-citizens and otherwise, an easy matter.

    I am in no sense whatever suggesting that non-citizens should have an easy route to getting into voting booths. Part of what we have done by going through with endless restriction removals–including mail-in ballots–is to make it WAY easier for non-citizens to vote.

40. I do not understand why so many people assume that someone’s not liking or following Donald Trump equals that person’s being a leftist.

41. So the attorney makes billable hours from H1B clients? An unbiased view, to be sure. And of course those Americans graduates are poorly educated and less fluent in English than your smarter than the average bear H1B. The Americans should have majored in race grievance studies, another H1Barista.

    Otay, Betsy.

42. I do not understand why so many people assume that someone’s not liking or following Donald Trump equals that person’s being a leftist.
    ==
    You make gassy and contrived arguments. People distrust that.

43. CC™ is similarly perplexed Betsy.

44. Immigration attorney: yes I too think he’s got a reason for his beliefs.
    As a software team lead at a big co.years ago, I had to add an h- 1b person to my team. The top candidate was very kind & courteous, but … not smart enough. Our team suffered, & I spent a lot of time reviewing & fixing his work.
    There were others of better & worse quality over the years. But honestly, there is a lot of abuse, and fallout.
    I hear that H-1b job filling has become a big scammy, fraud-filled industry.
    Texas announced a big investigation starting up just a couple weeks ago. Details reminded me of the Minneapolis fraud, in that several co’s are run by immigrants, & work in cohort with their besties overseas. All getting rich at our expense. I’m sure you can easily find the news online.

45. Marlene: If you are suggesting that H-1B candidates were not qualified for the jobs you needed to fill, why didn’t you hire Americans instead? I am not insisting that H-1Bs are adequate to the task. I am suggesting that if there were Americans who could fill the spots, why did you not prefer to hire them?

46. For example, requiring people to prove their own citizenship in order to register to vote is a nice, and defensible, idea–but it ignores the facts that a great many people lack access to such proofs.

    “a great many people lack access to such proofs (of citizenship):” Nonsense. Utter nonsense. Utter blooming nonsense. You don’t know where you were born? You don’t know how to get in touch with the government of the place where you were born? As they say in Venezuela, “Dime/decime otro de vaqueros.” (Tell me another cowboy story.)

    There may be some issues: the county government building where my great grandparents in Tennessee were born circa 1855 got burned down in the 1870s. ‘There may well be some such issues today, but I imagine that copies of birth certificates also reside in state capitols.

    I had to provide my birth certificate to renew my driver’s license. I called the city clerk of the town where I was born to find out what was required to get a birth certificate. I mailed payment and required documents. Within ten days I got a birth certificate. Super efficient, considering the request and birth certificate traveled 4000 miles round trip by snail mail.

    For those who acquired US citizenship, I doubt it is difficult to acquire such documentation if they don’t have the documents at home.

    There may be some instances where this is difficult: consider someone living in the boondocks of Alaska 200 miles by plane from civilization, without road access. But those example do not constitute “a great many.”

47. “Betsybounds” is definitely not a troll and has been a commenter here for many many years.

    And yes, I did invite Betsybounds to expand on her (I assume she’s a she) opinions about Trump.

48. Do H1Bs cost the employer less money?

    It ain’t rocket surgery Betsy.

49. Niketas Choniates and Gringo: This is an interesting read: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/article/five-things-to-know-about-the-save-act/

    Among the interesting information it presents, there is this:

    “Although at least one of these documents are in theory available to most citizens, not all voters have them readily available. According to recent studies:

    9% of all eligible voters do not have, or do not have easy access to, documentary proof of citizenship.
    52% of registered voters do not have an unexpired passport with their current legal name.
    11% of registered voters do not have access to their birth certificate.”

    There is a fair bit more, as well.

    The organization at the link is categorized as not being leftist: From a search: “The Bipartisan Policy Center (BPC) is not considered leftist; it is a Washington, D.C.-based think tank specifically designed to promote bipartisan, pragmatic policy solutions by bridging gaps between liberal and conservative viewpoints. Founded by former Senate leaders from both parties, it aims to combine ideas from across the political spectrum.”

50. Thank you so much, neo. I appreciate your comment; while not comprising agreement, it certainly amounts to support. I thank you kindly.

    And–oh yeah!–I am a she.

51. Betsy, “why didn’t you hire Americans instead? I am not insisting that H-1Bs are adequate to the task. I am suggesting that if there were Americans who could fill the spots, why did you not prefer to hire them?”
    …
    I was not high up enough in the co. to demand more candidates. Nor where from.
    My boss — or boss’ boss — gave me 5 or so screened candidates to interview & choose between.
    Also, as usual, they gave me a deadline to get a person on board.
    If the higher-ups want H-1b people, staffers often do not have a choice.

52. @betsybounds:11% of registered voters do not have access to their birth certificate.”

    I’m sorry, your source is completely lying here. I followed the link in your link which goes to a Substack and it did not say this.

    What it said was 89% of people in the survey said they had their birth certificate. It did not say they “do not have access” to their birth certificate or cannot get it. It is very, very easy to get a copy of your birth certificate, and you can get 100 copies if you want.

    And that source recycles the canard that married women’s name won’t match their birth certificate and this will somehow be a barrier despite women having had this issue for as long as there have been birth certificates. Every married woman who changed her name and has been employed has at some point navigated this hurdle successfully.

    Not impressed by the “Bipartisan Policy Center”, which includes Gary Locke and Olympia Snowe and other voices of the Swamp, getting its funding from the same tangled mess of NGOs that all such groups get their funding from.

53. Niketas Choniates: Not so. I just clicked on the link myself, and it goes directly to the Bipartisan Policy Center’s titled “Five Things to Know About the SAVE America Act”.

    You are free to respect the organization or not, as you choose. But I know of no reason to declare it anything other than legitimate.

    Marlene: I understand your position well. That is the way it sometimes is with business authority structures; I have worked with and for them myself.

54. Is someone believing that the SAVE act requires a passport?
    Not so.
    I hear a bunch of lefties on the news lying about that.
    …
    Just like Gringo, & many others, I had to order a copy of birth certificates (mine & relatives) online.
    It wasn’t hard. Just takes proactive forethought so the certificates arrive in time to take with you.
    If voting is important to someone, taking steps to prove your citizenship should be, too.
    If done right, it’s a “once and done” thing, not an annual task.

55. @Betsybounds:Not so. I just clicked on the link myself, and it goes directly to the Bipartisan Policy Center’s titled “Five Things to Know About the SAVE America Act”

    You misunderstand. Your link links to other things. Your link lied about what it linked to.

    Scroll to where it says “11% of registered voters do not have access to their birth certificate.” Click that link. You will go to this Substack. This is the source for their claim.

    And the source says something different from what the “Bipartisan Policy Council” said:

    Another way to establish citizenship could be a birth certificate. This is a document many more people have than passports. The 2024 SPAE reports a much higher rate of birth certificate possession at 89%.

    The Bipartisan Policy Council saw fit to lie to you. You might try checking up on more of their claims. One thing I’ve learned the hard way over the years, you have to go back to the source because so many people will lie to you about what the source said.

    Their other claims are equally misleading if you check their source material. They are never reporting the percentage of American citizens that CANNOT get these documents. They are only ever reporting the percentage of American citizens who might not have them handy or might have to order one. There are lots of Americans who don’t have a driver’s license or state id but nonetheless we require them for many ordinary activities like working or buying alcohol. If it’s important to them, they get the thing.

    Once the SAVE Act becomes law, anyone who needs a birth certificate or whatever and wants to vote will just get one or dig it out of the filing cabinet where they stashed it. It will be easy and in my state they might have to pay $25 unless they qualify for a free copy.

    So let’s leave the fear-mongering and mischaracterized studies out of it, because we all know what the facts are.

56. And of course that 10% probably can’t get a Driver’s License or other proof of citizenship because Jim Crow said so.

    Or was it because The Great Orange Whale has pushed the idea that non-citizens ought not be voting?

    Betsy, ask CC™ for some pointers here, it isn’t going well (a geo hint).

57. Incidentally, DC is filled with voices from the Swamp. Trump was gonna drain it during his first administration; that was one of his big promises that got him elected. But then other things happened; his DOJ shut down the investigation of Hillary Clinton and her laptop, for example–with his consent and approval. And of course Anthony Fauci and one or two other CDC big-wigs took COVID over; there were doctors who disapproved of and formally disagreed with the required vaccine policy who were hurt professionally. I remember thinking to myself during all that that Trump did not even know what the Swamp WAS.

58. Hi Betsy, thanks for the “been there”.
    …
    “Part of what we have done by going through with endless restriction removals–including mail-in ballots–is to make it WAY easier for non-citizens to vote.”
    Yes, as I believe was intended, in several states.
    Likewise, state driver license issuer departments often push voter registration, even suggesting it’s a right, with no hesitation about advising everyone/anyone to “just check that box claiming you are a citizen”.
    Those state employees are not good citizens, IMO.
    That whole “motor motor” act has been a debacle.
    Consider even the age issue! Lots of teens get a license at 16, & can’t vote until 18. ( Which should be raised, btw …)
    I think blending DL issuance with voter registration is ridiculous. Especially living with the reality of no safeguards on that checkbox.

59. Marlene: I agree with you completely on the whole “motor voter” act mess–including the raising of the voting age–with the reservation that people serving in the our nation’s military should be able to vote. I do, though, continue to think that large numbers of voting-requirement changes in recent times have served to make it easier for non-citizens to vote if they want to. I STILL maintain that all voting should be done live and in person at official polling places, and within a well-constrained time-frame close to–and either before or on–Election Day itself.

    And NO, driver’s license issuance should in no way be merged with voter registration.

    I have not change my mind on any of that crap since it was first initiated.

60. “draining the swamp” has proven to be very hard
    Three reasons off the top:
    1. It’s not fast or easy to fire civil servants.
    They are protected, way more than private employees.
    2. There are always multiple groups ready to sue, to stop the swamp cleaning.
    3. Black-robed activist judges are in place to add months or years of roadblocks.

    Trump & his team* have reduced the swamp, but I see it as a forever job.
    They activists are so dug in!!
    …
    * The DoJ and DoW have been actively cleaning out, too.

61. Good points, all, Marlene. Doing any of this is not gonna be easy, no matter what and no matter who.

    A huge part of the problem goes back decades, and involves our having allowed ourselves to be persuaded that the government knows both how things should be and how to get them that way–all the way back to Woodrow Wilson, even and at least, when it came to the point where we were faced with being ruled by “experts.”

62. Betsy had taken up CC™’s methods.

    Today at 05:09, after a long example of entrenched malfeasance by Democrats and bureaucrats it is still possible that The Great Orange Whale is part of the problem:

    I remember thinking to myself during all that that Trump did not even know what the Swamp WAS.

    Don’t be AWFL.

63. Niketas Choniates and Gringo: This is an interesting read: https://bipartisanpolicy.org/article/five-things-to-know-about-the-save-act/

    Among the interesting information it presents, there is this:

    “Although at least one of these documents are in theory available to most citizens, not all voters have them readily available. According to recent studies:

    9% of all eligible voters do not have, or do not have easy access to, documentary proof of citizenship.
    52% of registered voters do not have an unexpired passport with their current legal name.
    11% of registered voters do not have access to their birth certificate.”

    From the link at “11% of registered voters do not have access to their birth certificate.”:

    Additionally, possession of a birth certificate is not as demographically stratified as possession of a passport. For instance, 88% of respondents who did not attend college reported having a birth certificate, compared to 89% of college attendees.

    You are thus informing us that not being in possession of a birth certificate conflates with “not having access to a birth certificate.”

    At one time I was not in possession of my birth certificate. That is NOT the equivalent of not having access to my birth certificate. Proof of access to my birth certificate came from my subsequent possession of my birth certificate only ten days after calling the town clerk where I was born. Easy as pie.

    Of the 11-12% that do not have their birth certificates in their possession, I wager that most to nearly all would have the same quick and painless time in obtaining their birth certificates that I had in obtaining my birth certificate.

    Yes, it was an interesting read, but it in no way did the read contradict what I previously stated.

64. Maybe covered in the preceding 63 comments, but all these percentages about who has a passport, or a copy of the birth certificate in hand or available, etc gets rather irrelevant when actual performance of voting hovers around 50 to 60% of eligible or registered or likely voters…

    Instead of concocting horror stories about not getting a birth certificate from Podunk County because the courthouse burnt down… those worried about someone being denied the ability to vote should start a campaign urging people to plan ahead… like sometime in the next 6 months acquire a copy of their birth certificate or renew their expired passport, or dredge up whatever documentation the need and be ready if the SAVE Act passes. The same campaign should include register now, not last minute..

    Agreed: motor-voter is bad. So is election-day registration and provisional ballots., and mail-in voting. Election day is Election DAY. “Mailing it in” is derogatory term meaning you didn’t care enough to do it well; voting should not be that way.

    If someone is not diligent or organized enough to get these ducks in a row ahead of time, I would prefer they do not vote because they probably also did not familiarize themselves with the candidates and/or issues so they could make knowing choices.

    Thanks, Betsy, for igniting a stimulating comment thread.

65. Thank you, Another Mike! There are never too many things to consider, are there–and there are definitely some aspects of all this whose interpretations you and I share.

    A final comment:

    As readers of and participants in this thread may have gathered, I am utterly disgusted by the apparent notion that it is not possible for a life-long, committed conservative/libertarian to dislike Donald Trump; a great many people apparently consider those two positions to be mutually exclusive, virtually by definition. It is not so.

    I will end by enclosing a link to The Dispatch website, a seriously conservative website founded by Jonah Goldberg and Stephen F. Hayes that is nevertheless generally opposed to Donald Trump and his policies. The linked article discusses the Supreme Court’s decision on Trump’s tariffs; it is written by Ilya Somin, a law professor at George Mason University who also holds an endowed chair in Constitutional Studies at the Cato Institute. Somin has long been a respected contributor to The Volokh Conspiracy, a widely read and highly respected legal-matters website with a definite conservative-libertarian bent. Among other things, The Dispatch in general, and the linked Somin article in particular, should make it clear that it is entirely possible–and indeed, legitimate–to be simultaneously conservative and disapproving of Donald Trump, his policies, and his presidency.

    The article is intelligent and informative. If you go to the link, you will probably have to read it by logging in for one of three free articles per month; additional readings will require a membership. I urge you to have a look at it.

    https://thedispatch.com/article/supreme-court-tariffs-emergency-powers/

66. Betsy cites Jonah Goldberg, the poster child for Trump Derangement Syndrome!

    Own goal Betsy, own goal.

    Game over, Betsy. Hang up your jersey and take off your cleats.

67. Poop on ya, om.

    Your adaptation of the common reference to disliking Trump and his policies as a diagnosable mental illness, e.g. “Trump Derangement Syndrome,” is far more revealing–and, dare I say, damning–of your attitudes than it is of mine.

68. How sad to be utterly disgusted.

    Don’t be utterly AWFL.

    If Betsy can’t recognize when dislike of President Trump’s personality becomes an obsessive response. Well, that is a sad state to be in. And I wasn’t aware that TDS is actually officially recognized by the medical community. Although most folks know it when they see it. 🙂

    Could be worse though, could be AWFL.

69. Many people seem to be unable to separate their dislike of, and disdain for, Trump personally from any objective look at the policies enacted in his second term. This certainly describes Jonah Goldberg and others in that orbit, to say nothing of the sad case of Bill Kristol, et. al. In the case of the SC ruling on tariffs, note that while criticizing it, Trump has nonetheless accepted the ruling and pivoted immediately to other tariff options, as he and the Treasury Secretary said they would. Trump has consistently obeyed court rulings, even the most egregious, and sued to overturn, rather than simply ignoring court rulings as Biden did. Ilya Somin has one opinion; Justices Kavanaugh, Alito, and Thomas have another. Surely the second group cannot be considered “not conservative.”

70. @Betsybounds:I will end by enclosing a link to The Dispatch website

    This is hilarious, because we all already know about the Dispatch and the Bulwark and David French and all the Conservators of Conservatism who are now taking money from the Left and doing all they can to get Democrats elected. Bill Kristol is in favor of transgender surgeries for children now! Their masks dropped long ago. If you’re really following these people, you should know that. If you do know that, and then you bring them to us as authorities on conservatism, well, don’t be surprised at the reaction you get.

    Pierre Omidyar is not funding these people to spread conservatism. he’s funding them to split conservatism and get the Left back in power, and the Conservators of Conservatism are grabbing his money with both hands.

    I’ve become sort of radicalized in the sense that reading a little bit of the Supreme Court decision late last week, the argument for the Tennessee law is that they get to override everyone: The family, the doctor, the kid, other people who maybe the state could insist on — some counselors coming in who, you know, sort of to take a look, who’s not just hired by the family or by the hospital if they’re concerned that there’s a kind of collusion going on — I wouldn’t necessarily object to that. But everyone wants to go ahead with a certain treatment and the state of Tennessee has decided to prohibit it. You have to have a pretty high bar, and it’s important treatment, and there’s a lot of evidence if you don’t have that treatment you have real harm to these kids, you know suicide and suicide attempts and terrible things, and the state of Tennessee just gets to block that.

    Yeah, Bill, yeah they do. How awful.

71. Is that a quote from the Bulwark, Niketas?

72. @Kate:Is that a quote from the Bulwark, Niketas?

    It’s from one of Bill Kristol’s Bulwark videos, yes. Here’s another one he may have posted in his off time:

    Stand with trans Americans. You don’t have to understand everything about the transgender experience to know that Trump’s acts of humiliation and dehumanization are unjust and dangerous.

    The Conservative Case for Transgenderism.

73. @ John Galt III > “My ex-wife won an Olympic Gold Medal, was invited on an idividual basis and went to the White House, under Carter and she is not a Democrat. She didn’t let politics get in the way of an honor.”

    Good for her, on the achievement and the WH visit. However, despite all the objections to Carter’s policies, he wasn’t known as a highly immoral bad example (Clinton and Kennedy), nor as “literally Hitler,” and I don’t remember teams as a whole refusing to be honored by the president regardless of party beliefs.

    I think there is probably some truth to the observation that some of the women’s team would have gone if not for the bullying of the others; we may never know.

    As for our family: It’s customary for Eagle Scout awardees to request a commemorative letter from the current president (turned out in the hundreds by the Autopen of course, but who cared back then).
    Then two of our boys achieved that rank during Bill Clinton’s tenure.
    We did not ask for his commendation on honor and values, because it would be a complete lie over his signature.

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