European “conservatives” are not like American conservatives
The article is behind a paywall, but you can find a lengthy excerpt at Instapundit:
True American conservatism is not just a political leaning. It is a philosophy rooted in the preservation of individual liberty and our God-given inalienable rights. Meanwhile, European conservatism is mere branding. What passes for “conservatism” in Europe depends entirely on the alternative, which often makes it little more than a nationalistic version of its left-wing opposition with a half-hearted call for marginally lower taxes and a growing opposition to unfettered illegal immigration.
Many years ago, somewhere along the line in my early blogging career, I learned that the words “left” and “right” do not mean the same in Europe as in the US. Exactly what they mean in Europe I’m not completely sure, but the above may be as good a summary as any.
Europe has never placed the same sort of importance as the US has on free speech, for example. Vance was correct about that – and it’s not a new phenomenon. I learned about it as long ago as 2006, when I did some research on defamation law in France and discovered huge differences.
Sure, these European conservative parties might occasionally borrow from the American conservative playbook in terms of their rhetoric, speaking passionately of freedom or tradition or liberty, but they lack the ideological backbone and the political will to turn these words into action. Let alone the fact that American conservatism is tied to the ideology that birthed the nation itself. European conservatism is tied to nothing.
I don’t know if I agree with that last sentence. Perhaps European conservatism is no longer tied to anything. But traditionally, wasn’t it tied to the status quo – institutions such as the church, the monarchies of old, the state itself? Perhaps it’s now divorced from all that and searching for a guiding principle. The guiding principle at the moment, at least for conservatives in some European countries, seems to be nationalism and a retreat from globalism.
We agree! European Conservatives would not pick a creature like Trump. He is running around breaking your country. Tariffs on and then off creating massive uncertainty. DOGE slashing away without thought of consequences and then getting stopped by the Supreme Court. An asset to Russia while you all think he is on your side. Destroying the standing of the USA in the world. Those who aren’t scared of you are laughing like mad. A religious Conservative Party supporting a man with multipolar divorces, trips to see Epstein and a vile attitude to women.
And tonight Ukraine is under massive attack because Trump is sulking about what Zelensky wore and has suspended intel sharing.
Oh yes European Conservatives are different to US. They know vaccines work and Donald Trump doesn’t.
“But traditionally, wasn’t it tied to the status quo – institutions such as the church, the monarchies of old, the state itself?”
This is what I was taught, along with deTocqueville’s judgement that democracy had won a victory (providential, I think he puts it) over the aristocracy from which the latter couldn’t be seen to recover, like, ever.
He is running around breaking your country.
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You’ve confused him with the previous regime.
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You do not seem to value anything of actual consequence.
David Clayton:
In the not-so-very-distant past, Europeans have picked “creatures” far worse than Trump, and presently several European countries are FAR more broken than the US.
Ukraine has been under attack for 3 years, and it started under Biden. Meanwhile Europe laughed at Trump when he told them long ago that it was a bad idea to depend on Russian fossil fuels. Sure enough, it is Europe that helped finance Russia’s war on Ukraine through Europe’s dependence on Russian energy sources.
Oh, and the COVID vaccine was fast-tracked, developed, and promoted under Trump. And it has proven to be underwhelming in its effect compared to original hopes and claims by those who developed it.
A religious Conservative Party supporting a man with multipolar divorces, trips to see Epstein and a vile attitude to women.
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He was acquainted with Epstein along with scads of others in and around New York. Trump is unusual in that he debarred Epstein from his property about five years before Epstein was ever prosecuted.
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No clue what a ‘multipolar’ divorce is. Evangelicals have to make choices among available options, like anyone else. The problem here is that they understand what their options are and you do not.
They know vaccines work and Donald Trump doesn’t.
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COVID vaccines are like flu shots — not very effective and requiring frequent boosters. Trump is not at fault because you are misinformed.
And wait ’til you meet an Australian “conservative.”
They are either a caricature in a skin suit or bluffing.
I think he underestimates the degree to which the Republican Party is an omnibus of people dissatisfied with the Democratic Party’s mad schemes. Donald Trump is not an ideological anything. He’s an advocate of the normal contra the crazy.
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Four generations ago, European political parties were commonly dubbed ‘liberal’ or ‘conservative’. The former was a term associated with the interests of merchants, industrialists, and professionals; with the rule of elected officials; and with freedom of contract, freedom of association, freedom to publish (with qualifications) and freedom to speak (with qualifications). The latter was associated with the interests of the nobility and gentry, the Church, and the military; with monarchical discretion; and with a more regulated set of economic and social relations. Given modes of social relations in our time, both terms are anachronistic.
David Clayton:
It appears that British conservatives (you too) haven’t the foggiest idea of what was going on in the USA since 2017, fomented by the progressive/left, for instance: Lawfare, climate insanity, DEI destruction, gender mass hallucinations, unconstitutional actions of senior military, widespread imprisonment of non-violent political protestors.
As a recent example The Telegraph podcast “Ukraine the Latest” two days ago had an extended interview with Elliot A. Cohen PhD, spouting about the manifest evils of President Donald J. Trump. Cohen writes for The Atlantic magazine and was a foreign policy functionary of some kind in recent Democratic administrations. Did The Telegraph’s Francis Dearnly realize or acknowledge that Cohen is not unbiased? Hell no. It was laughable and pathetic.
So if you all (y’ll) can’t pay attention to what has happened here since 2017 don’t expect any reciprocal respect.
We agree! European Conservatives would not pick a creature like Trump. He is running around breaking your country. Tariffs on and then off creating massive uncertainty.
–David Clayton
I’m not the biggest fan of Mark Zuckerberg, but his motto:
Move fast and break things.
…is how things get done when you’re really making changes. It’s telling that Facebook’s new internal motto (2014) is:
Move fast with stable infrastructure.
Can you hear the difference?
Left and Right are completely meaningless all over the world. The single criteria that determines a person’s politics is Power. Communism, Monarchy, Democracy, Socialism, Fascism, ad nauseum; ALL are essentially governments of Unlimited Power. There are differences in the details but not enough to make any real difference. To complement Unlimited Power, we have Limited Power and No Power. There are no Limited governments anywhere anytime on Earth. And everyone hates No government. So it’s actually easy to categorize every political party in the world. Just look at how much Power they wield.
Related: Someone at X said: “The current American Left (communitarian) and the current American Right (libertarian) are diametrically opposed politically, and thus have no common ground. No reconciliation is possible.”
Which inspired another denizen of X to post a poll on the question of whether reconciliation is or is not possible. My response was: “I don’t think the current American Left is really communitarian. They use the term ‘communities’ a lot, but their idea of a ‘community’ is basically a demographically-defined group, or a category of people defined by sexual behavior.”
I started a discussion at CB about what the real split is in America, whether communitarians vs libertarians or something else.
https://chicagoboyz.net/archives/73444.html
Elliot cohen lost his son in the iraq war, is this transposed guilt i dont know i dont neccessarily disdain the iraq war entirely but the way it was managed should give us pause
And those who had a hand in the policy implementation should be regarded with a gimlet eye
There are wet tories and gaullists like beyrou who seem not to have learned the lesson that military intervention is the last tool in the box not the first
Nationalist like farage le pen meloni seem to have a better view but they seem to have a blindspot
I agree with the article that “conservatives” in Europe aren’t much like “conservatives” here — either the program conservatives or the “common sense” Trump movement.
Europe could benefit if it would only look honestly at the threat of Islamism within its borders. Facing the danger and doing something to protect European cultures would be “conservative” of those cultures.
JackWayne favors NoPower or KnowPower?
With no power you wind up at the mercy of the elements and find yourself in the dark much of the time.
It is hard to argue with David Clayton if his theme is that Trump is upsetting the status quo, and that those for whom the status quo is their ‘rice bowl’ are piqued. Too bad. To extend that thought, you cannot break rice bowls politely, or without creating some temporary mess.
It follows that the bigger the rice bowl the bigger the mess.
And we could take the analogy further by suggesting that the biggest rice bowl in the world has been the frequently misplaced generosity of the United States.
I surmise from the name and the hectoring tone that David Clayton is British, Scots, or from one of the colonies that is in a race with the Motherland to stamp out individual liberty and personal responsibility in deference to the largess and power of the State. The American people seem to be pulling back; and none too soon.
Miguel Cervantes, regarding the Iraq War, it was well fought and for sufficient reason. Sadly, Bush then deferred to the State Department, i.e. Colin Powell and Armitage with their grandiose nation building agenda. Rumsfeld on the other hand, advocated to depose the Tyrant, and turn Iraq back to vetted Iraqis.
@David Clayton: “We agree! European Conservatives would not pick a creature like Trump. He is running around breaking your country….”
I agree, nobody in the UK or Europe would ever elect somebody like Trump. But I don’t understand why you think you’re in a position to be critical of him, or of our electing him.
In the UK, not only can a person not have a gun, you can’t even buy a decent kitchen knife anymore, because of the institutional fear that some terrorist might use it in an attack, instead of to slice tomatoes. And if he does, and his victim defends himself, the victim could be in more trouble than the assailant. And if the victim’s ‘Bestie’ makes a supportive Facebook post, he’s going to jail, too.
Maybe you should clean up your own mess before critiquing other country’s voters and their politicians, especially those with high approval ratings.
Aggie:
Well-said.
More’s the pity that Europe can’t find its own Trump and elect him. Europe is downright ossified. It needs a Trump to move fast and break things.
When the EU was created, it was a bright bold hope to compete with the US. Instead it has fallen further behind.
Heck, we needed a Trump.
“The current American Left (communitarian) and the current American Right (libertarian) are diametrically opposed politically, and thus have no common ground. No reconciliation is possible.”
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The left is not communitarian. Thos. Sowell’s Vision of the Anointed, published in 1995, is instructive about our political conflicts.
I’m grateful to David Clayton for taking time out of his busy day, and his own country’s concerns, to educate us on what our country is really like and what our priorities ought to be.
I’ve been living in America for nearly fifty years now, born here, educated here, made a career and raised a family here, and I thought I understood things pretty well, but he’s shown me that I’m mistaken, that someone who reads the Telegraph or the Guardian can break me out of my echo chamber and help me learn to disbelieve my lying eyes.
@David Clayton
You are racing to prove how fucking clueless, irresponsible, and devoid of awareness you are.
The fact that you think this is a POSITIVE POINT OF COMPARISON FOR YOU speaks volumes to your lack of responsibility and morality.
Firstly: It’s dubious. Some of us remember Boris Johnson, an inadequate and inferior Brit version of Trump in basically every way.
Secondly: Take your preaching to the victims of Rotherham and Hull. Tell it to the victims of the Southport Jihadists. Tell it to Tommy Robinson.
I have my issues with Trump and have vocally criticized him, in case you could not see the massive Ukraine War threads. But compared to the shitty standard of most “European Conservatives”? As someone from a border state who has seen the atrocities of runaway government corruption and cultural obliteration on both sides of the Atlantic and more, I would take Trump in a heartbeat.
There is a difference between the country and the government. I suggest you learn it. After all, Britons of previous generations could understand that, as the Magna Carta Libertas and the Guarantees of 1689 and the Laws of the Scots can attest.
Which is kind of what you want when you are trying to negotiate major diplomatic deals, especially on trade policy and reciprocal tariffs.
And I say this as someone who is agnostic on the tariffs. But Trump did manage to get the other two major leaders of North American countries to the negotiating table with a phone call and a promise to postpone implementation of the tariffs for a month. There is something to be said for that.
And it’s ironic that some of the fondest statements I’ve seen on Trump’s foreign policy came from some Mexican friends. Friends who while harboring a hereditary suspicion of El Imperio in general hate the cartels far more than they do Gringos, and thus were pleased with Trump browbeating the cartel moppet (or at best useful idiot) of a President they have.
DOGE very obviously does have thoughts to the consequences. Which is why they have largely been going for low hanging fruit, and have shown how vast portions of the US government have failed their most basic tasks like double entry book keeping and even citing reasons for outlays. This is the reason for things like the Five Bullet Point Emails.
I’m skeptical of Musk and his influence, but the fact that you think cutting away at such blatant abuse and misuse is bad says nothing good for you.
Assets to Russia do not make a point of blowing up VVS Airfields and some planes on them in retaliation for a Russian ally using poison gas. Assets to Russia do not provide Ukraine with stinger missiles or the ability to deep strike Russian rear targets. By those standards, what was Obama?
Because apparently the largest, most populous democratic republic in global history, most of the Middle East, Japan, the Philippines, Hungary, Slovakia, Argentina, Ethiopia, Nigeria, Morocco, and a host of others do not matter.
God give me strength, you are somehow worse than the “International Community according to the BBC” Memes.
Again, you say this but Trump has obviously had an effect.
Tony Eden and Harold Macmillan called, as for that matter did France and Berlusconi. Among others.
Victor Davis Hanson had a good quote about this. That America’s evangelical conservatives were not voting for Trump in order to have a candidate in the vein of Christ himself, but a Roman Centurion of the Late Period able to protect them form Barbarians. The vote tallies indicates that sentiment of “Vote for the Centurion that can protect us” extends to Jews, SIkhs, and also a good number of conservative Muslims and Buddhists.
And if you had the faintest idea or care of things like the literal human sacrifice done by cartel affiliated groups (ever hear of Santa Muerte? In what limited defense of her not all or even most of her cults are criminal, but some very much are) “spontaneous Jihad” attacks like those in New Orleans, Jew Bashing on campuses, or the persecution of mainstream religious life such as silent prayer outside a Planned Parenthood, you might think differently.
You know, this is the one that actually gets me angry.
Trump’s conduct with Epstein shows his better character. Not because they weren’t friends or he didn’t do trips with them. But precisely because they were….
… until Trump realized what Epstein was.
And then he condemned Epstein, banned him from all Trump properties and businesses, and worked relentlessly to help representatives of Epstein’s victims and the State to take the monster down. For which he was publicly praised by those that knew.
And because I am sure you are so staggeringly ignorant that you thought making this dumbass claim was a good idea, and because I want to stamp this particular point in VERY CLEAR so you DO NOT GET TO SAY YOU DO NOT KNOW AFTER THIS POINT, I am going to provide some explicit proof.
https://www.independentsentinel.com/donald-trump-helped-build-a-case-against-jeffrey-epstein/
https://www.generation95.com/how-did-donald-trump-help-to-convict-jeffrey-epstein/
Vile how?
If anything Trump loves women too much. But even a cursory look at the roles he has placed them in shows he values their input and potential. Or do you think him running with a female campaign manager and having female White House spokespeople and Female high government officials is trifling
The fact that you have to lie says plenty. Trump isn’t sulking about what Zelenskyy wore. Indeed, he defended Zelenskyy’s decision to wear it before a hostile reporter, as Neo pointed out. And Zelenskyy rewarded him for that by pointlessly and counterproductively sniping at him and ultimately causing the blowup.
To what credit I will give Zelenskyy, I still blame Trump and Vance more for helping to sour the leadup to this. But that still speaks to Zelenskyy’s ingratitude and lack of maturity dealing with Ukraine’s most important ally and supplier, and that is a fact even senile Biden noted.
Trump is an extreme germophobe straight edge you simpering ignoramus. He has impeccably up to date vaccination records (as we know from the public source info) and if anything his IRRATIONAL TENDENCIES TOWARDS GERMOPHOBIA helped ENABLE a great many abuses from people pushing mRNA vaccines for the coof.
Speaking of chowderhead: Have your “European Conservatives” revoked any of the knighthoods given for the abominable AstraZeneca failure?
Hint: Your ignorance is showing. How unintentionally revealing. “Trust the Experts. Vaccines work. Even if they don’t.”
You do not know Donald Trump, and as such are absolutely clueless about how to criticize him. You are a fundamentally foul, dishonest, ignorant cur who does not condemn Donald Trump, but the deranged strawman of him you have in what passes for grey matter in normal humans.
Which is largely why so many of your claims not only have no relation to the reality of Donald Trump (such as your claim he sulked about Zelenskyy’s clothing choice – when that was one of the few things he didn’t sulk about -, that he doesn’t know vaccines work, that his connection with Epstein helps your case, that he is a sexist), but are often the exact opposite of reality. And I say this as someone who has spent several comments railing on him in this very blog for his failings I have seen, especially regarding Ukraine, Russia, and our European and North American allies.
But he’s still a far sight better than any you have come up with. The only “Quad” you can probably think of is the bikes stolen by several of the “Asylum Seekers.”
If this is the best you can muster, you would be better off quitting while you are behind.
I fear my response to Mr. Clayton might have been eaten by the filter or the like, but Neo has shot him down with far more grace and good temper than I.
Ironic considering how I have just hears info alleging stuff that – if true – is among the worst things for Trump to have done. Suddenly cutting Intel sharing to the Ukrainians and HIMARS targeting data without warning. iF tried that would be disgraceful and dishonorable.
Ignore the troll.
“European conservatism is tied to nothing.”
Neo continues in reply:
“I don’t know if I agree with that last sentence. Perhaps European conservatism is no longer tied to anything. But traditionally, wasn’t it tied to the status quo – institutions such as the church, the monarchies of old, the state itself? Perhaps it’s now divorced from all that and searching for a guiding principle. The guiding principle at the moment, at least for conservatives in some European countries, seems to be nationalism and a retreat from globalism.” Indeed.
Citizenship in Europe is by blood and soil. Hence, the veneration still of Monarchy there, if not Aristocracy, by the Euro-Right. Deference to hierarchy and veneration of tradition.
Today, the UK right has closer resemblance to US conservativism than nearly all of the Continental right.
Triumph of the Anglosphere? Maybe not if you look at Treaudeustan. But looking to New Zealand and Australia, maybe yes.
The political unity of most of the Anglosphere comes from language, political institutions, Constitutional and legal heritage, as well as 24-7 media and the internet.
The latter two halves also suggests why we are different from the Continent.
But who discusses these meaningful differences currently?
What strikes my most about the Continent is how much the EC/EU under Robert Schumann was really triumph of political fascism-light.
Instead of an inherited Aristocracy to rule, they get French technocratic-Aristocrats.
Shades of The Who’s righteous, cynical, and rebellious lyrics in “Won’t Get Fooled Again.”
“History ain’t change” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SHhrZgojY1Q
CORRECTION listen to this remastered brilliance! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jtb10ZwbReY
WELL SAID, TURTLER!
BRAVO ZULU!
Cf. https://markhalperin.substack.com/p/you-need-to-read-this-email
H/T Powerline blog.
Here’s an interesting one:
(Discuss amongst yerselves…)
“Reversing Kissinger;
‘The former secretary of state’s 1972 opening to China badly weakened the U.S. By dispensing with that conceit, Trump shows he intends for America to win the great-power competition.”—
https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/news/articles/reversing-kissinger-trump-china
H/T Powerline blog.
(Maybe in the background, one can play Klaus Scwhab’s admiring babbles about the desirability of emulating China…)
…And in honour of our latest eloquent, if logic-challenged—or, to be more kind, GIGO-saturated—troll….
“Hitler All the Way Down;
“The Left trivializes real totalitarianism.”—
https://americanmind.org/salvo/hitler-all-the-way-down/
(Daniel J. Mahoney)
H/T Powerline blog.