The Epstein files
I’ve long been curious about the so-called Epstein files. Most people seem to think that the list of names will be a list of perpetrators in the sexual abuse of minors. But I’ve never understood why they believe that, although it’s certainly true that some of those names may be of guilty people. But in terms of criminal evidence, what would the list mean? I’ve never seen a definitive description, perhaps because most people don’t know and are merely imagining.
Epstein was, among other things, a man who liked to sexually abuse underage girls in their teens, as far as I can tell. I don’t think there’s much doubt about that. But did he procure such women for others? And if so, who were those others who were also guilty of the sexual abuse of minors? Epstein also was a very rich man who was a major Democratic donor and had an enormous number of contacts and acquaintances. Those people almost undoubtedly would make up the bulk of those on his contacts list, I’ve always assumed.
Now the list – or some portion of the list – has dropped:
A source who has reviewed the files said the release spans more than 100 pages, including a list of contacts without further context.
The person said the unveiling was likely to be a “disappointment” to sleuths eager for bombshell new evidence about the billionaire pedophile’s connection to prominent political and business leaders.
It’s called “Phase 1.” Will there be a Phase 2? And what will that reveal? More names without context?
Reactions:
The limited scope of the release drew criticism from transparency advocates including Rep. Anna Paulina Luna (R-Fla.), who leads a House GOP task force on government transparency. …
“THIS IS NOT WHAT WE OR THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ASKED FOR and a complete disappointment. GET US THE INFORMATION WE ASKED FOR!”
Just what is that information? A list of guilty parties? I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that the government doesn’t have such a list, there’s only a list of contacts and flight logs and that sort of thing. Guilt by association, which isn’t guilt enough – although the public will infer guilt.
If the authorities do have better evidence than that, the proper way to deal with it is to prosecute.
You might believe that is naive of me and that obviously tons of smoking-gun evidence is being covered up. But I just don’t think so. Of course, I could be wrong. But until I see something that changes my mind, my best guess is that such a list says nothing about guilt and that the government lacks good enough evidence to prosecute. You might ask, what of the videos? As far as I can tell, Epstein made videos of himself having sex with minors. But I”ve never read anything about videos of others having sex with minors, other than speculation that such videos exist.
NOTE: Bondi seems to think the FBI is covering something up. But I think that perhaps Bondi just doesn’t want to look like Geraldo Rivera opening Al Capone’s vaults.
ADDENDUM: In response to some comments in this thread –
I thought I made my point of view quite clear. But perhaps not clear enough. So I’ll try a clarification.
Epstein was a sexual abuser of many underage women. I am not disputing that at all. And I am also NOT saying there couldn’t once have existed evidence that implicated others in some sort of sex ring run by Epstein, one that exploited underage women, with the evidence having been destroyed at some point. In fact, if there was such evidence and especially if it implicated powerful people, it probably would have been destroyed.
However, I think it’s wrong to assume either that there were such other people for whom Epstein was procuring underage women, and/or that strong evidence of their guilt existed, and in particular that anyone on an Epstein contact list was guilty simply by virtue of being on that list.
Regarding Epstein and whether there were other men involved – I understand that many human beings are guilty of very dark doings. I don’t think I’m the least bit naive about that. But I also believe that many such people are quite secretive about their crimes and do not necessarily like to spread the word around, and I think Epstein may have been of the latter variety. There are plenty of other reasons all those people might have associated with him short of engaging in sex with underage girls. He may also have been a voyeur who liked to spy on people with hidden cameras when they were his guests. But again, that doesn’t mean he procured underage girls for them. Just that he himself was guilty of sex crimes.
The evidence that Epstein procured girls for other powerful men rests solely – so far at least, as far as I can tell – on the testimony of a couple of the women years later as part of civil lawsuits they filed for money. I am not a proponent of the idea that women don’t ever lie about such things, especially where there’s notoriety and money involved.
It gets rather complicated, but one of the main people on whom this perception of Epstein shopping young women around for other rich and/or famous men rests is a woman named Virginia Giuffre. You can read about her here and in particular about her accusations against Alan Dershowitz here. Read about her here also. Note that in the latter article she says, “When you are abused, you know your abuser. I might not have my dates right, I might not have my times right… but I know their faces and I know what they’ve done to me.” And yet later, regarding her allegations that she had sex with Dershowitz six times, she said maybe her accusations against him were a case of mistaken identity. Oopsies!
I have come to my own conclusions about her veracity, and you can come to yours.
I seem to remember that Nancy Pelosi’s daughter said, “a lot of our friends are going to be hurt” to her mother with regards to the files when they first surfaced.
At this point, who would believe that the FBI / DOJ did NOT destroy any solid evidence a LONG time ago?
However, it is possible that Bondi, Patel, and Bongino could find evidence of the destruction.
AesopFan:
Me.
I don’t think there WAS solid evidence. Whether that’s because Epstein went solo in his abuses or whether it’s because the others covered their tracks, I cannot say.
Nor am I saying that the FBI, etc., wouldn’t have been willing to cover up or destroy evidence. My gut feeling is that such evidence never existed, though, to any strong degree.
I would imagine that if Epstein had a “little black book” of sorts that’s long since disappeared. But what about flight logs and passenger manifests? It’s a pretty solid bet that the rich and famous who were Epstein’s guests weren’t being flown out to his island to go hunting and fishing.
Is it surprising that it is now alleged that it’s the New York office of the FBI that withheld the supposed 1000s of pages?
Young female prostitution is nothing new. Probably the oldest form of prostitution. A Vice Crime set to make criminals out of someone now. 16-17 year old prostitutes may even be entrapping their clients…I dunno.
Epstein Files seems to me to be more about hysterics and politics – than why young girls and young women are giving blowjobs on a school bus whilst others watch, having sex in the schools bathrooms (‘blowjobs are not having sex’).
If *BIG* Government and its supporters truly wanted “Underage” prostitution to stop, then why don’t they do something to stop it? Both the REPs & DEMs – there is bipartisan support to release Epstein Files, and has been for some time, so why isn’t there bipartisan support to ACTUALLY stop “Underage” prostitution and blowjobs on school buses?
How to stop “Underage” Prostitution?
• lower the age of consent?
• force underage girls and young women to wear chastity belts – possibly *BIG* Government controlled chastity belts to stop any parental or teacher abuse?
• force underage girls and young women to wear those Burka full body bags outside the home?
• put girls into private institutions when they reach puberty, and keep them there until age 18? That sounds better than chastity belts and/or Burkas, IMHO.
There’s probably many more solutions than those, but I don’t have the resources that REPS, DEMs, and *BIG* Government have…then again, their solutions seems to be about releasing the Epstein Files!?
Sgt. Joe Friday:
Why is it such a good bet? Why wouldn’t someone want to be a guest on a private island to be wined and dined in luxurious digs? That would be enough for me to make the trip.
A junket like that wouldn’t need to include anything illegal. Sgt. Joe Friday should be interested in “The facts, just the facts.”
Karmi,
It’s only partially about underage prostitution. It’s more about the ” rich and famous” and well connected politicians showing their pedophile side. Despite what Neo believes, the fact the it appears that Epstein was Arkancided, tells me that a lot of people, on both sides, want this buried.
Neo may be right, but the people involved are to me, very sleezy.
So we are to believe that the ONLY guilty party in the entire Epstein affair (how many years was it going on?) is Ghislaine Maxwell.
Sure.
Not only was she the only person – aside from Epstein – convicted, she was the ONLY person even arrested !
One would think that the FBI would have at least spoken to, say, Bill Clinton (who lives just north of NYC) or Bill Gates and asked them what they witnessed.
But nooooooo !
Instead, the FBI goes after Prince Andrew in the UK.
And to this day, nobody has been able to explain Epstein’s source of wealth.
Yep,that’s right folks. Those who think there is a cover up on the part of the FBI are just out to lunch.
Mostly Dems but many Reps, and no clear evidence of crimes.
Let’s see the lists. Let those guilty of letting Epstein kiss their butts, prove they didn’t have sex with underage girls. Nobody on the list is innocent.
I don’t believe Epstein killed himself.
I believe the FBI has videos of illegal sex with other men.
The day after Trump was elected, I’d imagine that all of the shredders–all over Washington, and at many other locations around the country–were starting to overheat from overuse.
The guilty have just had too much lead time to destroy incriminating paperwork, to overwrite (Bleachbit) data on computers, to destroy electronic media, pull hard drives, and to generally cover their tracks.
I could be wrong, and there may be a lot of arrogant, stupid, guilty parties, who think that they will never get caught and, so, have not taken steps to destroy their paper trail.
But, in a lot of these high profile cases, I’m betting that there is as much damning evidence left as there was in “Al Capone’s vault” when Geraldo Rivera had it opened up–if I remember correctly, only a grocery receipt, and an empty whiskey bottle.
At the government think tank I worked at, as a security precaution, after you finished working on an especially sensitive request, you were supposed to shred the initial request itself, and all the documents which you generated, and we had a large, chest high commercial grade shredder in the next room which was in pretty constant use.
I think it would be naive indeed to believe that the most damning Epstein documents have not long since been shredded, or that the damning documents relating to a whole host of other potential crimes committed by government employees or by favored individuals are still in existence.
Sad, but I think Snow is right. The evidence has long ago been wiped. Too many “big” people involved.
My thoughts are that Epstein was looking for fellow travelers down the road of under-age sex. He’d invite someone rich and powerful to his island to sus them out. Maybe make a risque joke or have one of his victims parade past topless to see their reaction. If it was favorable, they’d be invited back and then he’d get whatever he wanted, be it their favor or blackmail material. So, a one-time appearance on the list would not to me be that suspicious. It’s the repeat visitors I’d look at very hard.
And I do believe Epstein killed himself. The conspiracy was to make sure he had enough time alone and enough material to do it with.
If life exists elsewhere in the university, perhaps the surest sign that it is intelligent, is that they’ve never bothered to contact us (AB, edited by Claude.ai)
So, a one-time appearance on the list would not to me be that suspicious. It’s the repeat visitors I’d look at very hard. — Dwaz
My thoughts exactly. I suppose men going to the island with a spouse or girlfriend might be an exception.
I don’t think Epstein killed himself though. I’ve seen the postmortem photos of his bruised neck. Looks exactly like braided rope marks to me. No braided ropes were in his cell.
John Tyler; Snow on Pine; et al:
I thought I made my point of view quite clear. But perhaps not clear enough. So I’ll try a clarification.
Epstein was a sexual abuser of many underage women. I am not disputing that at all. And I am also NOT saying there couldn’t once have existed evidence that implicated others in some sort of sex ring run by Epstein, one that exploited underage women, with the evidence having been destroyed at some point. In fact, if there was such evidence and especially if it implicated powerful people, it probably would have been destroyed.
However, I think it’s wrong to assume either that there were such other people for whom Epstein was procuring underage women, and/or that strong evidence of their guilt existed, and in particular that anyone on an Epstein contact list was guilty simply by virtue of being on that list.
Regarding Epstein and whether there were other men involved – I understand that many human beings are guilty of very dark doings. I don’t think I’m the least bit naive about that. But I also believe that many such people are quite secretive about their crimes and do not necessarily like to spread the word around, and I think Epstein may have been of the latter variety. There are plenty of other reasons all those people might have associated with him short of engaging in sex with underage girls. He may also have been a voyeur who liked to spy on people with hidden cameras when they were his guests. But again, that doesn’t mean he procured underage girls for them. Just that he himself was guilty of sex crimes.
The evidence that Epstein procured girls for other powerful men rests solely – so far at least, as far as I can tell – on the testimony of a couple of the women years later as part of civil lawsuits they filed for money. I am not a proponent of the idea that women don’t ever lie about such things, especially where there’s notoriety and money involved.
It gets rather complicated, but one of the main people on whom this perception of Epstein shopping young women around for other rich and/or famous men rests is a woman named Virginia Giuffre. You can read about her here and in particular about her accusations against Alan Dershowitz here. Read about her here also. Note that in the latter article she says, “When you are abused, you know your abuser. I might not have my dates right, I might not have my times right… but I know their faces and I know what they’ve done to me.” And yet later, regarding her allegations that she had sex with Dershowitz six times, she said maybe her accusations against him were a case of mistaken identity. Oopsies!
I have come to my own conclusions about her veracity, and you can come to yours.
Once Epstein had his reputation, which was some time before his death, it would be odd to accept an invitation.
Even if you were convinced he was being falsely maligned, wouldn’t you–particularly as a public figure–stay away?
His guests could afford their own five-star lifestyle.
There were reports that the fibbies raided his NYC home and found loads of compromising material involving publicly-known figures. Later, asked about it, one spox commented that keeping that stuff wasn’t their business, so she didn’t know.
Richard Aubrey:
“There are reports.* That means nothing to me without knowing who made the reports, based on what. Rumors are cheap.
The allegations against Dershowitz and Prince Andrew involve contacts the men had, and/or are alleged to have had, prior to the initial 2006 criminal investigation of Epstein. As far as I know, that is the pattern of all the allegations towards men other than Epstein.
Another Mass Hysteria Conspiracy. Close kinship to the #MeToo movement that grew so rapidly—suddenly after years, decades, etc. women were remembering a pat on the buttocks, or some movie producer promising a staring role. Hey, movie starlet, one piece isn’t worth a life time of starring roles!
Mass Hysteria – like people buying up toilet paper at the mention of China Virus.
One News story from an outlet is gospel – next News story from same outlet is Legacy Media manipulation of the facts.
Supporters of the Rule of Law claim OJ was guilty even tho cops tampered with evidence, gloves didn’t fit, jury found him innocent, etcetera etcetera etcetera. Same people cry Trump was convicted by Lawfare and thus was innocent.
Political persecution – Arkancide:
Jail/Prison guards sleep on duty—No Shit?! Jail/Prison equipment breaks down—No Shit?! Examples in one brand new prison in less than 2 years: 1) main air conditioner (HUGE and expensive) started not cooling cells due to cooling tubes starting to be blocked because water wasn’t filtered – Dade county coral rock’s lime, calcium, whatever was clogging up tubes. 2) Mesh warning ground system around entire prison—between two security fences had to be shut down due to false alarms—many were just birds walking around.
Do prisoners hang themselves? You bet! Some have done it with a towel around neck and then tied to bars…on their knees and just leaning forward until they die.
Suicide in Local Jails and State and Federal Prisons, 2000–2019 – Statistical Tables
Sorry, but show me real proof of crimes – otherwise, focus on stopping “Underage” Prostitution…
The reporting I am aware of has said that Epstein had every one of his properties rigged to record what was happening in every room (I remember hearing someone say that they stumbled into the “recording room” in his New York property, and there was an employee there to monitor/run all of the equipment.
Why do this unless you wanted to gather compromising videos and sound recordings to use to blackmail people?
I presume such recordings are long gone from any FBI evidence locker, and have either been destroyed, or someone else now has this very powerful blackmail information.
P.S. If Epstein was blackmailing the rich and powerful people who he enticed into his orbit, it’s pretty logical to assume that each and every one of them would want him dead before he could talk, and that some of them might have the contacts to arrange his very convenient “suicide” in what was supposed to be the safest lockup in New York City, one which reportedly had had no other suicides.
Then, there were the guards who were supposed to look in on him every fifteen minutes who conveniently both “fall asleep” for a long period of time–a couple of hours?, and afterward suffered no real consequences for their dereliction. There was his cell mate who was transferred out, so Epstein was alone. And, then, there were the cameras which were supposed to be trained on his cell which just happened to “malfunction,” so they could not provide any evidence of what might have happened.
What an odd series of coinkydinks, and all headed in one direction!
Snow on Pine:
I already explained why he would do it.
He could easily have been a voyeur. I assume you know what that is, and it is a simple and highly believable explanation.
In addition, he might have been planning to blackmail people (although he certainly didn’t need more money) with videos of their consensual sex lives with adults, perhaps kinky, or same-sex, or extramarital, or compromising in a host of possible ways – without that ever including setting them up by procuring underage girls.
Either or both of these is sufficient to explain video cameras. But also, as far as I know, some such cameras were found but not in every room in every residence.
Plus, the dog that didn’t bark is that there has never been evidence that he blackmailed anyone, as far as I can tell.