Shifa hospital and the hostages
The Israelis have explored the tunnels under Shifa hospital and have reported on what they found:
The Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) have complete control of Gaza City’s massive Shifa Hospital, believed to be home to Hamas’s headquarters.
Unfortunately, the IDF did not find any [living] hostages, but they claim they found evidence Hamas once held them at the hospital.
The IDF discovered “a significant stash of Hamas weaponry.”
Also, they found Hamas uniforms that seem to have been discarded hastily, probably when the jihadis donned civilian clothing in order to flee.
As far as violence goes:
… [N]one of the soldiers shot their guns. Instead, they entered the hospital calmly and controlled, not engaging any medical personnel or patients.
The IDF claimed it “was ‘not overrunning’ the hospital, asserting troops were conducting a ‘focused’ operation ‘in a defined area’ of the hospital.”
The IDF brought everything Hamas denied the Palestinian people in the hospital: medical supplies, incubators for babies, and humanitarian aid.
It won’t change all the Jew-haters’ minds, nor the MSM coverage. I wonder, however, if a few of the Palestinians have noted the contrast.
This guy apparently noted something else, though, when interviewed by Al Jazeera in another Gaza hospital:
The Qatari-owned broadcaster interviewed an injured Palestinian man at Al-Aqsa hospital in Gaza on Sunday 5 November.
However, the Al Jazeera reporter cut the conversation short as soon as the man criticised the terror group for hiding among civilians.
“As for the resistance, they come and hide among the people. Why are they hiding among the people? They can go to hell and hide there,” the man said, according to a translation by the Middle East Research Institute (MEMRI) from Arabic to English.
The reporter then abruptly turned away from the man even as he continued to speak, addressing the camera and changing the subject.
The Israelis warned the Shifa hospital that they were coming and when it would happen, giving the terrorists plenty of time to leave and live to fight another day. But if the IDF didn’t give warnings, the entire world would condemn them; plus it would offend their own sense of integrity and human decency.
The warnings also give Hamas a chance to move the hostages elsewhere, of course. At some point they may run out of hiding places, but that could take a long long time, if ever. In the meantime, if any hostages die or are even killed by Hamas, the terrorists can claim it was the IDF that killed them.
But so far the hostages are still worth more to the terrorists alive than dead – at least, I think so. Therefore it stands to reason they will try to keep most of them alive in order to get more bang for their hostage buck, as it were. What the hostages are going through, and have been going through, is unconscionable and horrific to imagine on any level, both psychological and physical. The suffering of their families is intense. Even we who are onlookers find the hostage situation enraging and heartbreaking, but multiply that feeling exponentially for the families.
The ultimate fate of one hostage was revealed as a result of the IDF’s Shifa takeover, however:
Yehudit Weiss, 64, was sick with cancer when Hamas death squads murdered her husband in Be’eri and abducted her to Gaza on October 7.
The IDF found her body in a building containing Kalashnikovs and RPGs adjacent to the Shifa Hospital. ? pic.twitter.com/Ik7UuP18Ok
— Eylon Levy (@EylonALevy) November 16, 2023
No further information on her death has been released so far. RIP.
How many other hostages are dead? When did they die, and how? How are the living ones being treated? And where are they? The public has no idea; I hope that Israeli intelligence does.
They may all be dead by now, unfortunately.
Earlier on The Daily Mail they had an article saying that the IDF claims that Hamas has tunnels under the Hospital but has not provided proof that they exist. I guess the IDF needs to escort all the press down into the dungeons.
SCOTTtheBADGER:
They certainly may all be dead, but I don’t think they are. They are worth far more to Hamas alive than dead. Far more. So I believe that some are alive. How many, and under what conditions, I don’t know. How long they will remain alive, I don’t know. But I do believe that some are alive at the moment.
SHIREHOME:
And we all know how rigorous the MSM is about requiring inonclad PROOF of whatever they publish. Unless it’s the word of Hamas, or something anti-right, or 99% percent of what they publish, actually.
I don’t think anyone has doubted for years that the Hamas tunnel system exists, at the very least.
I am not sure any hostages are worth more alive than dead except as torture victims for their amusement. I don’t have much expectation many will ever get out and home and if then in a solid mental state.
I pray for them.
Also been wondering if pictures of hostages are being posted, and torn down by Pro Palestinians and Marxists, is there a on line site to see them?
Skip:
They are absolutely worth more to Hamas alive than dead unless and until Hamas becomes convinced that Israel will not give up anything at all to gain their freedom. Israel has a history of giving up plenty to get hostages back, such as Shalit – one person exchanged for over a thousand. Hamas took the hostages because they thought they had enough of them to free just about every Palestinian prisoner in Israel. Now Hamas is getting the idea that it won’t be business as usual in dealing with Israel, but I believe they still think that Israel is considering various deals. The pressure from the families of the hostages is great, plus Israel really does care deeply about its hostages.
Once Hamas decides that Israel won’t deal, the hostages will be killed, probably in some terrible way, or publicly tortured, or something equally horrific. But that time hasn’t come yet, I don’t think.
I think that if all of the hostages were dead, more bodies would have been found. Yes, even dead bodies have some value to the civilized nations. But corpses are a problem all their own, and dealing with hundreds of dead bodies likely wouldn’t be worth the trouble. Some dead bodies, perhaps. But not hundreds of them.
I see that there has been some back and forth here about tunnels. I don’t doubt that they exist, but contrary to the opening sentence of this post, the linked post from LI doesn’t address or show tunnels associated with the hospital in question. Other posts on Al Shifa show videos of weaponry etc in MRI rooms, not tunnels; parts of those same videos appear here.
Other posts around the internet show entrances to tunnels elsewhere.
But I’m still waiting for video of how the tunnel system and this hospital are related.
I feel that the hostages are alive but might as well be dead. They are under a constant death sentence until the IDF rescues them.
The Palestinians in Gaza have relatives in Israel. Relatives who are citizens. The Prime Minister of Hamas has nephews who served in the IDF. The whole thing is so much more complex than I can imagine.
As time goes by, live hostages have less and less value for Hamas. If, several days after October 7, had Hamas offered to trade the hostages for Israel not going into Gaza- thus keeping Gaza military and non-military infrastructure intact- I am sure Israel would have accepted the deal. IIRC, Israel in fact offered such a deal. Hamas neither accepted nor proposed such a deal because Hamas calculated they could get much more- such as freeing Hamas personnel in Israeli prisons etc. Hamas also calculated that even if Israel entered into Gaza, that international pressure would soon stop Israel in its tracks.
The more that Israel pounds Gaza into rubble, the less value live hostages have for Hamas. I would not be surprised to find out that most or all of the hostages are now dead.
In retrospect it would have been a better deal for Hamas to have returned the hostages in return for Israel not going into Gaza and turning it into rubble. But Hamas didn’t foresee that the consequence of the October 17 massacres and holding onto the hostages would have been Israel turning Gaza into rubble.
I am reminded of the American Civil War. It’s a pretty good bet that, after the end of the Civil War, most Southerners would have agreed that a better deal than fighting and losing the Civil War would have been for the Federal Government to free the slaves, and compensate their former owners for their lost “property.” But as the South seceded to preserve slavery (if you doubt that, I suggest you read the South Carolina Declaration of Secession), there is no way in 1861 that the South would have agreed to compensated emancipation.
“Hamas” is also a homophone of the Spanish word jamás, which translates as “never” in English. Does not jamás – “never”- rather accurately describe Hamas’s attitude towards Israel? Jamás is also the title of the hit song of Spanish singer-songwriter Camilo Sesto.
Here are Jamás lyrics in English.
Gringo:
Shalit was held for 5 years. After 5 years, Israel gave them over 1,000 prisoners in exchange for that one man, many of the prisoners serving life sentences. Many of those released prisoners went on to plan October 7. So I don’t agree that as time goes on the value of the hostages decreases. But as I said, the more Hamas becomes convinced that Israel will not deal for them – and that might be happening already – then the less value they have and the more likely even worse things will happen to them.
JFM:
I would imagine that they’ve disowned those Israeli relatives.
By the way, Jews – even Ashkenazi Jews – are somewhat close to Palestinians, genetically speaking.
One of the problems the IDF have along with western allies is that our technical abilities and morality not only greatly prolong these conflicts. But ironically lose us wars.
Compared to anytime in history. We have developed the ability to track and kill enemy combatants. While drastically limiting civilian casualties and damage. To the point it has become expected that ONLY combatants will be killed.
So not only have we adopted a mentality that nearly every engagement is limited . But it also allows the general populace a wait and see approach. Instead of quite literally being forced to make the tough choices for their own survival. It also means there is never any finality in conflicts. Enemies have learned to simply wait us out. While nearly any engagement pushes us to insane levels of spending and exactitude.
Any moral person does not want innocent people to die in any conflict. Yet history since the 60’s has shown that we have painted ourselves into a corner. And one that does not offer us a clear way out
What is the current majority opinion in Israel as to the advisability of the Shalit deal? If I were Hamas, I’d be paying attention to that.
A) Israel, “It was still the right thing to do.” Hamas, “OK, we’ll try to keep current hostages alive as our insurance policy”
B) Israel, “It was a mistake, encouraging hostage-taking.” Hamas, “OK, Israel won’t repeat any deal; we will eliminate the hostages as soon as we can’t blackmail Israel into a ceasefire.”
Mythx, are you proposing to find an Israeli Curtis LeMay?
Bill K,
Look at the two major conflicts that our allies are waging.
Ukraine was invaded by Russia. The left and press ( i repeat myself). Cheer on the use of subversive tactics, and give little care for wide spread use of old fashioned artillery and raids. In the objective of winning the war. And the people of both countries are having to face the stark realities that it could be their own butts in the fire eventually.
The Israelis on the other hand. While also being invaded ( by an inferior force). Use smart bombs and tactical raids WITH ADVANCED NOTICE. To avoid any undue death and damage.
Like it or not, uncertainty and fear are useful weapons in any conflict. And we as a society have taken to believe that not only is this untrue. But continue to believe that civilizational conflicts fit into a western paradigm.
That it is somehow wrong for a superior force to destroy an enemy in such a way to preclude further conflict. Eliminating an enemies ability to make war as we did in Germany. Or demonstrating the ability and will to end a conflict with finality as we did in Japan. Instead believing that we can maintain lower level conflicts for decades. And that somehow this is the only correct view. And will ultimately lead to the least damage. All while buying time so many of these countries that have no such qualms. Develop nuclear weapons
Or TLDR: The west keeps allowing the fucking around. And there is never any real find out involved
Mythx, agreed. Which is why, regrettably, I believe Israel is truly on her own and even the US is a weak reed to lean on.
But I suspect your western paradigm that it is some how wrong for a superior force to destroy an enemy hypocritically only works one way; for ‘our side’, not ‘theirs’. And my fear is that ‘our side’ in the US is becoming increasingly haters, not lovers of Israel. Ergo, isn’t ‘from the river to the sea’ being increasingly tolerated, if not actually accepted?
Bill K.
Sadly I agree that Israel is largely on its own. I think until this even many Israelis had begun to loose sight of the objective. You simply cannot let an offensive force attack, retreat and regroup endlessly. Especially when they have far superior numbers. Largely so western press will stay off your back. Time to realize that our press (and even more so Europe’s). Detest you and will sit happily by until they are destroyed
It was once said ( I dont remember where). That the Israelis were often hard to like. But impossible not to respect. They will need to go back to that mentality if they wish to survive as a state
Mythx, not only do they need to go back to that mentality, they surely will. When they have no friends and are up against the wall, those who will survive will all become Samsons.
There comes a point when all restraint is abandoned, and one says, “What have I got to lose?”
When all is lost, this Psalm comes to mind, (73:25), “Whom do I have in heaven but You?
And with You, I desire nothing on earth.” Faith not only survives but flourishes under duress.
As a former surgeon, I’ve seen a lot of death through the years, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. But if I were a relative of a hostage, say, my own daughter, I’d be saying to myself at this point, “My daughter is dead. At some point they might find the body.” And that would be my method of coping. Better than thinking my daughter is being tortured and raped. Better than thinking, “Oh what is my daughter thinking right now!”
And if, perchance, my daughter came back to me, it would be life from the dead. But better to start grieving now than hope and hope and hope, and then have it dashed. But that’s just me.
Even (the now robustly antisemitic) Amnesty International conceded this in a 2014 report:
Hamas forces used the abandoned areas of al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, including the outpatients’ clinic area, to detain, interrogate, torture and otherwise ill-treat suspects, even as other parts of the hospital continued to function as a medical centre.
https://www.amnesty.org/en/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/MDE2116432015ENGLISH.pdf
At the time, did anyone demand exact and intricate photographic proof of this assertion?
It has become a global moral imperative—THE moral imperative—to believe liars, slaughterers, torturers, murderers, rapists, butchers, necrophiliacs, kidnappers, body-mutilators and burners.
Monsters.
ALL in the name of enthusiastically—and earnestly—supporting so-called Human Rights and Humanitarianism…while calling for the destruction of ONE country. (Granted there aren’t enough Arab countries and too many Jewish ones…)
Discuss amongst yerselves…
Neo for the hostages lives I do pray so they are worth saving.
Come to think of it, a hospital is the PERFECT place for Hamas to off Israeli hostages!
“Israeli troops find ‘Hamas tunnels’ along with the bodies of two hostages at Gaza’s Al-Shifa hospital and say there is evidence other captives were being held there until shortly before IDF entered;
“The discoveries follow criticism that IDF’s search showed no signs of the tunnels
READ: Israeli troops show ‘concrete’ evidence of Al Shifa hospital as Hamas base”—
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12759535/Israels-Defence-Forces-discover-entrances-Hamas-tunnels-booby-trapped-vehicle-Gazas-Al-Shifa-hospital-hours-finding-body-one-hostage-taken-October-7-attacks.html
Victor Hansen weighs in on “proportionality” in war….
“When has war ever been ‘proportional?’ “—
https://jewishworldreview.com/1123/hanson111723.php
…Michel Gurfinkiel describes French fears about the potential internal threat…
” ‘A Gaza of Her Own’: Is France Heading Toward a Civil War? “—
https://www.meforum.org/65215/a-gaza-of-her-own-is-france-heading-toward
…and Liel Liebovitz takes a deep breath, rolls up his sleeves, picks up his pen and ponders the unthinkable…
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2023/11/thought-for-the-day-35.php
H/T Powerline blog (for all).
Key graf from the Liebovitz article:
“…The incendiary content today targets not only Israelis and Jews but also America, and it’s available not only on clandestine websites but in college and high school classrooms, on the airwaves, and in the streets, thanks to the prevalence of critical race theory and DEI….”
Critical race theory and DEI.
Hmmm, and WHO, tell me true, has been promoting these OFFICIAL OBSCENITIES?
The answer to which—in the current climate of outrageous, out-of-control untruthfulness is—ANYONE and EVERYONE EXCEPT THE PERPETRATORS and FACILITATORS. (In fact, one can safely assume that it is precisely those trying to describe this extreme threat for what it is, and raise the alarm, who will be labeled the perpetrators of it…by “Biden” and “HIS” facilitators and enablers, more specifically by the Truth Police in his administration….
File under: Garbage In Genocide Out
But if I were a relative of a hostage, say, my own daughter, I’d be saying to myself at this point, “My daughter is dead. At some point they might find the body.”
Me too… which could help me until the moment that a video of her holding today’s newspaper turns up. And then, what wouldn’t I beg the Israeli government to do?
It’s such a horrible thought.
Watt, I did see a video showing the entrance to one of the tunnels within the hospital. If I can remember where, I’ll post a link. But don’t sit on a hot stove waiting, I’m afraid… I’ve been a lot of places over the past few days.
CNN reporting this morning IDF finding a tunnel beneath the hospital and a second hostage body. Make of it what you will
The best that I can hope for, regarding the Israeli hostages is that individual Hamasniks may look at the situation as the IDF bounces the Gaza rubble, and calculate that their own best hope is to get some kind of individual settlement for their own safety by swapping a hostage or two that they have custody of. Rather like the last of Hitler’s henchmen in 1945, trying to cut a deal for themselves…
Sgt. Mom:
Quite possibly. From what I read Hamas and Gaza are collapsing. It’s not a big place. Israel is right next door and in a bad mood.
Given that, it’s also possible that the Hamas leadership will hold onto hostages as the only bargaining chips they have.
What happened to those captured by the Taliban after Biden abandoned Afghanistan?
https://twitter.com/raz_sauber/status/1725583000967020651
Battle Lines podcast (Hamas/Israel war) from The Telegraph continues in the media model of accepting information from Gazamites without much if any qualification but including qualifications when any Israel sourced information is presented. The current focus is on the poor Gazamite “civilians,” and the poor state of health care and hospitals in Gazaland, how overworked the noble doctors are and how many children are being pulled from rubble.
It seemed an own goal when they spoke of a doctor who decried the wounds suffered by young Gaza males from an Israeli quadcopter drone strike. Think just for a minute. How precise do you have to be with a quadcopter dropping munitions on soldiers/terrorists? So the doctor is essentially bitching about treating wounded combatants. Nerf grenades needed.
The media, even right leaning The Telegraph, have been co-opted.
From the River.
To the sea.
What of Gaza?
Used to be.
Never again.
Watt, this may not completely satisfy you on the link between al-Shifa hospital and tunnels, but it’s at least a video beginning: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIpGpDCnWT0